Kevjet - The Podcast
Kevjet - The Podcast: Celebrating Inclusivity and Belonging with the Kings Cross Steelers
Have you ever found a place where the truest version of yourself felt not just accepted, but celebrated? That's what the members of the Kings Cross Steelers, the world's first gay rugby team, have discovered. Join us as we hear from the Steelers themselves, who share the triumphs and tribulations of their unique journey in the world of sports. This group of extraordinary individuals sheds light on the profound sense of belonging and support they've found within the team, illustrating how the pitch can become a sanctuary for those sidelined elsewhere. Their stories are not only about the tackles and tries but also about creating a family in a city as vast as London.
But it's more than just a game for these players; it's a lifeline to well-being and mental health. In this episode, we navigate the complexities of mental health in sports, revealing how the Steelers have built a culture of open communication and unwavering support. They touch upon vulnerable moments, the kind that can make or break a person, and how their teammates have become their safeties net. If you've ever doubted the impact of sports on mental health, the heartfelt accounts of these athletes will challenge every preconception.
The episode rounds off with a broader reflection on acceptance within sports, from the challenges of living openly as an athlete to the importance of allies and role models. Our guests do not shy away from discussing the mirth and joy that stitches their team together, nor do they hold back on recounting the impact of inclusivity on their personal identities. These stories are a celebration of diversity, shared not just through the lens of athletes, but as a narrative of individuals united in pride and purpose. Come along for a candid, inspiring, and sometimes humorous journey through the lives of the Kings Cross Steelers — a beacon of what it truly means to be part of a team.
Have you ever found a place where the truest version of yourself felt not just accepted, but celebrated? That's what the members of the Kings Cross Steelers, the world's first gay rugby team, have discovered. Join us as we hear from the Steelers themselves, who share the triumphs and tribulations of their unique journey in the world of sports. This group of extraordinary individuals sheds light on the profound sense of belonging and support they've found within the team, illustrating how the pitch can become a sanctuary for those sidelined elsewhere. Their stories are not only about the tackles and tries but also about creating a family in a city as vast as London.
But it's more than just a game for these players; it's a lifeline to well-being and mental health. In this episode, we navigate the complexities of mental health in sports, revealing how the Steelers have built a culture of open communication and unwavering support. They touch upon vulnerable moments, the kind that can make or break a person, and how their teammates have become their safeties net. If you've ever doubted the impact of sports on mental health, the heartfelt accounts of these athletes will challenge every preconception.
The episode rounds off with a broader reflection on acceptance within sports, from the challenges of living openly as an athlete to the importance of allies and role models. Our guests do not shy away from discussing the mirth and joy that stitches their team together, nor do they hold back on recounting the impact of inclusivity on their personal identities. These stories are a celebration of diversity, shared not just through the lens of athletes, but as a narrative of individuals united in pride and purpose. Come along for a candid, inspiring, and sometimes humorous journey through the lives of the Kings Cross Steelers — a beacon of what it truly means to be part of a team.
Welcome to another exciting episode of Kevjet the podcast. I'm excited to introduce to you four exceptional members from the world's first gay rugby team, the renowned Kings Cross Steelers.
Speaker 2:I thought, oh, gay rugby, that looks like fun. I've wanted to play rugby for years. And then I was in London. The following year went to a trial day, whether I should admit this or not. I had so much fun on that day. It sort of pushed me to move to London.
Speaker 1:Get ready to be inspired by these incredible athletes as they share their experiences, insights and the camaraderie that makes the Kings Cross Steelers a force to be reckoned with.
Speaker 2:It is a family and we're all united and I think the thing that a lot of us have got in common not everyone, but some people have felt comfortable playing growing up, but a lot of us didn't feel comfortable to play such a lads sport when we were, I suppose, younger, queer kids, navigating sport and sexuality and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:We'll dive into the team's pioneering spirit, their unwavering commitment to inclusity and the positive change they've brought to the sport.
Speaker 3:I paid at school as I got older and I slowly sort of squeezed out of the sport a bit more that it wasn't a particularly inclusive state, so it was really great to be able to come back to a team sport.
Speaker 2:It's become such a massive part of my life that I've found people that I would genuinely call family now.
Speaker 1:From breaking down barriers to fostering a sense of belonging. This episode promises to be a testament to the transformative power of sport.
Speaker 3:Sexuality or perceived sexuality is why I stopped playing sport at school, even if I didn't know it at the time.
Speaker 4:I've learnt so much about the community and started to learn a lot more, probably about myself. It is becoming a valuable re what this rugby club does for people. I can see the wider benefit in terms of support structures and where people dart to the rugby club when they first come to London because they need that safe space to then learn about what's around and who's around. I think it's brilliant.
Speaker 2:It's a place for everyone within the Steelers, whether that is programme, pathway, coaching, touch anyone who wants to be a part of it. We do even allow the straight people in.
Speaker 4:It is probably one of the most common questions that comes our way before.
Speaker 2:We're athletes before we're gay guys, but ultimately we're all together because we are in the LGBTQIA plus spectrum and as much as being gay doesn't define us, it is kind of what unites us.
Speaker 1:Sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with four members of the Kings Cross Steelers Chris, matt W Ao and Matt R. Welcome to Kevjet, the podcast members from the Steelers. Hey, hey, hi, hey, you all right. I've been looking forward to having this conversation. I've been having a conversation with someone in the background and I've been briefed on some questions and I'm going to hit you with them. We'll just go with the flow and have a great conversation. Who wants to tell me who's the longest member of the rugby club and how did you discover?
Speaker 2:the club. This is my 10th season, 10th year. I was much younger, quicker and skinnier when I joined. How about the club? I think I lived in Bristol and Bristol was holding either Bingham or Union. I want to say it was Union. I thought, oh, gay rugby, that looks like fun. I've wanted to play rugby for years. And then I was in London. The following year went to a trial day. Probably whether I should admit this or not, I had so much fun on that day. It sort of pushed me to move to London in a way. So that's how I found it. And I remember crying to council because I was so nervous about going and one of the coaches rang me and I said, ok, I'll come, I'll wait and I'll not get boots. And he replied no, I've got boots you can wear. Get your ass down here.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no it was so long ago I remember we went to what was the pub in Camden that closed down like the black cap. That's where we went after.
Speaker 1:And am I right in saying the club began in 1995?
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was the first World's first gay rugby club. Yes, and were any of you involved in the documentary?
Speaker 2:I mean there's shots of us, but I wasn't definitely involved. Both times yeah there's a video in the club and both times getting in drag. Oh yeah, I'm in drag in it and I'm very pissed. Walking down a, walking down a corridor just before, like a commercial break or what would have been a commercial break, like walking down the canals in Amsterdam.
Speaker 1:Nice. That's a claim to fame, is it?
Speaker 4:It's a regular night out, isn't it? Chris?
Speaker 2:No, it's the streets of Soho usually.
Speaker 1:How often do you guys train?
Speaker 4:Twice a week. Do you want your unexpected answer or the real answer? Let's hear a bowl. Well, I would like them to be there twice a week at least, but it's very rare that anybody manages twice without some work emergencies stopping them from arriving or you know something, some social they forgot about. How does?
Speaker 1:your nine to fives affect your not just training but your ability to be there for your teammates.
Speaker 2:Oh, you go because you actually run a business.
Speaker 3:I think actually because I'm self-employed, I can to an extent make it work around my work, except for when I can't. So and it's important that my day I'll try and make everything sort of get there Like balance, that my day from a sort of health perspective, getting time out in the office, all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, try and make it work. But twice a week plus matchdays on Saturdays, is quite a lot. So it's nice to hear Matt's understanding just then when he was talking about it.
Speaker 1:Do you guys find that's a stress where you have your sort of like, your nine to five, and then you're dedicated, obviously, to the rugby, but you're also have your commitment with your nine to fives Just?
Speaker 2:means I turn up to training brain dead. To be honest, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:So it's like is it a good mental escape? Like, is it good for your mental health? How does playing rugby work for your mental health?
Speaker 2:I think, like at the end of the work day, the last thing you want to do in some cases is travel across London to stand in the cold. But for me it's like going to the gym. Once you're there, you're going to work and you're going to enjoy it and you're going to leave feeling a lot better. But it's just like sitting on the Juvenile in rush hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not so fun. Is mental health something that you guys openly talk about with each other Within our groups?
Speaker 2:I'd say yes, Everyone's obviously got their own like close friendship groups or like parents made within the club, and it does lend itself to being a bit more of a supportive environment for that, because you're spending three days a week probably with these people and if there's a reason you can't come down, you are more likely then to lean on. You know close friends that you've made it and you do have those open and honest conversations quite a lot, because you don't want to let your teammates down but you also need to look after yourself at the same time. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 4:It's a really important factor for me. I'll see my role as director rugby. I'm really pleased that I've had a number of occasions this season where players have opened up to me about where they're at, one in which was during a game and we had to make a change in the match, which these guys will be aware of. But that's one there. And another one was actually due to play a match, made a horrendous excuse as to why they couldn't play the match and then finally came to me separately to open up about what had really happened and we had the conversation about how that has always been important. So hopefully the players understand that, as much as we try to be as professional as we can be, their well-being is still first. There's never any judgment on somebody that needs a break or needs further support. So I'm really pleased that a couple of players have felt comfortable to do that and hopefully that just continues through the club. Do you guys feel?
Speaker 1:like it's sort of a family atmosphere amongst each other 100%.
Speaker 2:Me and Northern Matt have spent Christmas together two years running. It is a family and we're all united. And I think the thing that a lot of us have got in common not everyone, but some people have felt comfortable playing growing up, but a lot of us didn't feel comfortable to play such a lads sport when we were, I suppose, younger, queer kids like navigating sport and sexuality and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I guess it's a safe place for open conversations, no matter if it's somebody who's new within the club or someone who's been there for a long time. It's just a safe place for anyone to express themselves.
Speaker 3:I think there's a degree of understanding and I think there's a lot of shared experience within the club. I think, as Christopher's just saying, whether people was playing at school or not playing at school. I played at school but felt as I got older I sort of squeezed out of sport a bit more, that it wasn't a particularly inclusive space. So it was really great to be able to come back to a team sport towards the end of my 20s and, just for the record, everyone. I think that's really valuable.
Speaker 1:Maybe let's go around the room and we'll start with Matt Wright and just tell me how you found the club, give me the history about you in the club and tell me your favorite thing about it.
Speaker 2:Oh God, I found out about the club because I was drunk on a date once with some guy and we were both chatting about it and then we both signed up for one of the induction days and I turned up.
Speaker 2:He never did. I mean, I never spoke to him again, really after the date, so I'm not really surprised why he didn't turn up and then just kind of yes, stuck around, made some amazing friends, one of whom I lived with within a year of joining the club. It's become such a massive part of my life that I've found people that I would genuinely call family. Now, within the space I've gone through the club, trying to help out and do as much as I can now sort of sit on that board in the social situation and try and give back to something that has given me so much support and so much not necessarily like not just socially, both mentally and physically as well, because I'm a lazy shite. I won't do anything unless people are nagging us to go out and do some exercise. So without them there I'd probably just be a fat lump that didn't really do much other than drink and chain smoke.
Speaker 1:I see people nodding their heads.
Speaker 3:Very supportive way yeah.
Speaker 1:How long have you been with the?
Speaker 2:club. Good question this is my seven year, I want to say so. Joined back in I want to say 2017, 16, 17, something like that and then joined in through the pathway program and sort of, with about 50, 60 other members who either hadn't played for years like I hadn't played in about a decade and then picked a backup along with all these other lads that had joined the club at the same time.
Speaker 4:Let's go to Matt R. The club initially approached me, so my day job is with England rugby coaching coaches. The club came to me initially to ask if I'd be interested in joining, but at the time I'd just signed on with another club. After a year down the line that club perhaps didn't take rugby as seriously as I'd hoped, and I'd also been keeping track on the Steelers since then as well. Interestingly, when the club first approached me, they had no idea about my sexuality and it was still relatively new for me as well.
Speaker 4:Having watched a lot of the social media and stuff, I guess I was more interested in what I could get from the club from a wider perspective, not just rugby. After that year had passed, I dropped them a line and said look, I'm going to be available for next season. Is it something you're still interested in? I went down to meet a few times and then we decided to get involved. I took over as director of rugby a couple of years ago. It's been crazy I think there's a word I'm going to use crazy ever since.
Speaker 1:Let's move on to Al.
Speaker 3:I joined the club about four years ago, been really sporty at school, played a lot of rugby and I said sort of found myself playing less than this and then in my 20s just kind of drank everything. About four years ago I stopped drinking everything but I got sober this is also around the time of the first lockdown and socially had not very much going on, like no one did. But I decided to join the club something I thought about before just to have the option to, or just to really have a social piece outside of work and an opportunity to play team sport again. I think for me, especially, learning to socialise without 10 points of cider has been great, Having quite an interesting one, and the club's been great for that. So, yeah, stuck around.
Speaker 1:That's great. How did lockdown affect the club?
Speaker 2:I think we tried our hardest everybody involved. We managed to do some cool stuff virtually, so I think we did like a virtual viewing party of Steelers the movie that was happening and we were just catching up with each other. I think it was really clear that the club was a big part of a lot of people's lives. It was the balance in actually keeping everyone involved but not sitting on Zoom the whole time like the irony now that we're sat on Zoom. But yeah, it was just a lot of catching up with each other. I think I've always been someone that loves a phone call but we were a lot better at ringing each other on a Sunday and catching up and that kind of stuff. And we were like the board at the time. We were all very vocal in saying you know, if you need anything, reach out.
Speaker 1:Everyone talks about how important it is, not just for their physical health but their mental health, and then all of a sudden you're just thrown into lockdown and you're not allowed to see each other in person. Even for my line of work was really important and I always say I had some of the best conversations I've ever had my whole life with some of my friends over Zoom during lockdown.
Speaker 2:A lot of us were still in Steelers for our houses at the time as well. I know I was. Oh no, just a little. You know those social bubbles you could have with a couple of households. There was quite a lot of that going on.
Speaker 1:Well, it was kind of important and now that we look back at it and I mean there's lots of opinions it was important to have your bubbles coming out of it.
Speaker 2:We did a really cool Inter Club Touch tournament. So it was a complete mix of loads of teams, because Touch probably was all we could do and it coincided with the club's 30, 25th, 25th birthday, I want to say. And we did like all these fitness challenges like run 25K for 25 years, and that was great getting everyone back and then, yeah, sitting in the Steelers car park and tables of six having a few beers afterwards was also super fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was it like being an athlete as a young athlete in the closet? Was it scary? You guys have to come out as an athlete Like were you already playing sports? Was it? Were you open about it? How did how did that happen? Tell me your stories For me with this one.
Speaker 3:I think that it's difficult because for me when I was younger you don't articulate the difference to sexuality. It's kind of articulated for you by others so for you're aware of is a difference. Like I said, I think within a team setting that can be quite exclusive. So I mean I didn't come out probably until I was in my mid 20s and so definitely wouldn't have been a consideration at school. So I probably not positioned to answer from that perspective. But I think sexuality, or perceived sexuality, is why I stopped playing sport at school, even if I didn't know it at the time.
Speaker 1:I think that's a common theme. That's why I'm asking the question and I hope that's starting to turn around. Was it the same experience for all of you?
Speaker 2:No, I mean I came out very young. I was like 12, 13. And I was playing, like I've been playing rugby and like other sports at school throughout and I kept going like it was generally fine. There wasn't that many negative reactions, or if there were, I just didn't really didn't really pay much attention. I was kind of a me on world most of the time. I still am just kind of plodding along, getting on with what I like doing. I didn't really hang out with many of the rugby boys outside of rugby. I had my own friendship circle and then like interests just sort of split, but I don't. I didn't never really put it down to my sexuality. It was probably comments made but I didn't. I was just kind of like, yeah, I am and what, and get on with it. So I didn't massively affect us, I don't think. But might have.
Speaker 2:Chris, I came out when I was about 13, 14, and I lived in fear for probably year 70 or 10. I think when I was in year nine someone came up to me and said, are you gay? And I said yes and he just like knocked me out. So I had a really horrible time at school. I found myself. So I actually did a really high level of dance cow surprise. And I did quite a lot of athletics and like it was a lot of individual stuff I felt a lot more comfortable with and dances. Like you know, I'm not the. I wasn't the only gay guy in the dance company, I was the only gay guy at school.
Speaker 2:And then, moving to uni, I sort of got back into sport. At uni. I took a few, I took three years out before I went to uni and then at uni I got super involved. I did gymnastics, I did cheer. I did a lot of gymnastics growing up as well, but eventually ran to sports president and got that at my uni as well. So I was so super involved in sport. So it got a lot better as I was older. But, as you asked that question, I can't decide if I consciously or unconsciously pushed myself into a lot of individual sports versus team sports.
Speaker 3:I think I did that with indiv. I completely relate to what Chris is saying about, well, individual sports, for sure.
Speaker 4:Matt, I guess it's kind of been almost polar opposite for me really. I was involved in rugby since since like 11. The time I was too fast to play football, so I know of Rockshund, and then somebody said come to rugby training and then I sort of fell in love with the game from there. So the majority of my all, through my teens and into my twenties, I was involved in some of our rugby and we've actually went referee in, lucky enough to go to tournaments around the world and stuff. And I guess whilst I was in my teens I knew there was interest there. But I think I'd buried it enough to justify to myself that although I knew there was an interest, I wasn't ever bothered about pursuing it. So it didn't necessarily impact me during sport because I wasn't that aware, although I had an inkling.
Speaker 4:If that makes any sense at all, I've never really been that bothered and, lucky for me, obviously, by the time I did come out in my club nobody really cared because they knew me so well probably knew me better than myself that you didn't make any difference there.
Speaker 4:They didn't make any difference England either. They didn't really care either, you know, apart from asking me if I wanted to suddenly join the pride parade or something and I was, no, that's not, that's not where I'm going with this. But yeah, it didn't make any difference there either. So I've been incredibly lucky that in the time that I did start to realise and I did do anything about it, that nobody cared, because I was me for sport and rugby and what I do and you know what I did outside of that didn't really matter. So I've been probably the most fortunate. I've not really had any negative reaction. So it puts me in a difficult position because I almost struggled a bit with empathy because I was saying, well, I'm just me and this is what happens. And so here is, you know, Chrissy's story particularly. I just couldn't imagine being in that position. But yeah, it's interesting, it's interesting to learn.
Speaker 1:Do you guys feel that you have, you have to sort of have a responsibility for the community?
Speaker 4:But the thing I love about the club is that in the I've been there well, this is my second year now and I've learnt so much about the community and started to learn a lot more, probably about myself, that it is becoming invaluable really, because living where I live is a tiny middle of nowhere Like somebody knew a gay once, that's about it and so you just suddenly learn so much about the community and also, I guess, what this rugby club does for people. I mean the guys have alluded to already about lockdown and stuff, but where I can see the wider benefit in terms of support structures and where people dart to the rugby club when they first come to London because they need that safe space to then learn about what's around and who's around. But yeah, I think it's brilliant, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Do you guys feel frustrated with professional athletes who are hiding who they are?
Speaker 2:I personally don't feel frustrated. I'm going to show my age a little bit here, but I was just old enough to remember what happened to Justin Fashioning and the problem lies more with the dirt sheets than it does with individuals not wanting to come out. So I mean that must have been 1992, 93. But it is like for a lot of people one of the most recent, I suppose, tragedies of a male active team sport player coming out as gay, also someone, no matter whether you're 60, 40, 30, 12, you come out when you're ready. I personally don't get frustrated.
Speaker 1:My view is the same.
Speaker 4:All around the board. Well, I think we're quite unique in rugby because there are a few examples of gay players and match officials and things that people are not that bothered. So we're uniquely placing this board. I guess that there's acceptance in league and union. Obviously, football is a clear one and I think I still feel that the wider fan base of football is not there. They couldn't I don't think they could accept it yet Hearing some young lads in the pub reacting to football in the same way that parents and relatives would have done 30, 40 years ago. It's definitely not a place yet, I think, where people feel anywhere near comfortable for it. So there's still work to be done, clearly, but I'm pleased that rugby at least is showing a way where it can be positive.
Speaker 2:Perhaps Sorry, matt, just to jump in, though there is still, when Harlequin's posted this is our fourth pride game, some of the comments from some of the supporters on that chat. This has got no place in my sport. There's a lot of hardcore rugby fans and I completely agree with you. I went to a football match five years ago and couldn't go again. I couldn't deal with the language, the homophobia, the racism. But it's good. It's not perfect.
Speaker 4:Can I just go back there? I totally agree with you and some of the comments were absolutely gris and I read them laughing a lot of the times. I thought you know these people clearly really think this. But one of the real positives there was I don't know if you saw Joe Marlowe actually took time. So he's an English professional player, plays for Harlequin's. He took the time to reply to what I mean. He put bell-end emojis to most of them, but he took the time to call them out and go back to them and I really appreciated that because you need some of that sort of standing to be an ally in that case and, I think, to try and make these people look as silly as they are.
Speaker 3:I think it also just demonstrates why it's necessary to have initiatives like the Pride Weekend within sport and other teams of pride on a wider level and to sort of keep those conversations moving forward.
Speaker 1:You mentioned your weight earlier and I just wonder how body confidence plays into this, because in the gay community we've made several jokes about it already. I mean, that's just something, that it's the way it is, and whether it's right or wrong is to be talked about. But how does that play in rugby?
Speaker 4:Where does that come in? The shirts are a lot tighter now than they used to be.
Speaker 1:Is it something that you guys struggled with or still struggle with? How does that work? Because everybody's different, but you guys are a family and so is it something you talk about. Is it something that people struggle with?
Speaker 2:I mean for me personally. I've always struggled with polar opposite of what a lot of people struggle with. Like I came to this club like 55 kilos, like raked in, like just not a very healthy looking and like. Personally it's helped me have a better body image in my own head of being like actually, if you do gain a bit weight, if you gain a bit more muscle, you will be more physically fit and you'll be able to do your job on the pitch better than if you're not.
Speaker 2:And the great thing about rugby is a spot on the pitch for every single body type that there is. So whether your skinny is a rake, whether you're 120 kilos and everything in between, if we had a prop that was raked in, we'd just be like eat more or like we'd just be like no, that's not who you are. We'll move you to a different position to help adapt as best as you can, because obviously we see each other all the time getting chained and whatnot. So that just kind of normalises looking at a wide spectrum of different body types, different body shapes. I mean, unless you've got tiny cars, there's nothing we can really do about that, sorry that was just a dig at Chris.
Speaker 3:I think it's such a physical game as well. It doesn't you appreciate what the body is capable of, especially over an 18 minute match, which also helps like to Matt's point earlier, I think with any sort of hang ups, or it can help with any sort of body hang ups.
Speaker 1:How are you guys received from the gay community as athletes?
Speaker 2:I think we're quite. I think the Steelers are quite known in the London gay community. But I think that's both a blessing and a curse at times. The plus is, everyone knows at least one Steeler. The negative is that everyone knows at least one Steeler and the interaction with that personal people does at times form someone's opinion of you. I'm not going to sit here and say I'm perfect because I'm not, but I've probably been the bad Steeler once or twice. But yeah, I think it's even similar in the gay rugby world because we are like a lot of people. I think there is a perception that we're quite insular I don't know insular Thank you, Matt, one of the day, so like, and actually we just we've all got mates in other teams and we always try and do our best. Yeah, I think I wouldn't say we're looked at as athletes, we're looked at as Steelers, and what that Steelers things mean I think is interpreted by the person looking in the eye of the beholder or whatever.
Speaker 1:I think that goes back to if you guys have a responsibility that you're holding up to, being respectful and as a character, like characteristics, like do you feel like you have to act a certain way or do you feel like you can just be yourself when you're off the pitch?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think we feel we have to act a certain way. It's not the gay community especially. I don't really see it as the founding respect of the core values of rugby. A lot of the time it does get fetishised like oh, how's it in the showers, what's it like? Can you take a photo of your all muddy in your kit? And so on and so forth. Some more expletives on top of that. That does get a bit annoying and a bit frustrating, because you do get the same conversation over and over and over again, especially on the data apps. It's just like frustrating after a while and then you just like, actually, I'm not even going to mention it. Half the time People look like they say, oh, I'd love to be in that scrum and, like me and Al, convouch the positions we play. Once you've done four of those on a Saturday and you're only 12 minutes into an 80 minute game, you very much do not want to be there.
Speaker 1:Have you guys had a defining moment in the club, something that's just defined who you are as an athlete?
Speaker 3:When we had Bingham a couple of years ago. That was a big one for me. I think I've been with a done pathway and I did my first season with the club and so this is like a long time after like playing at school and coming back, I think. So we went to Canada for Bingham, which every two years, and it was the first time I really sort of spent time with the team and like any sort of meaningful capacity outside of a match. I think that, like I said, I stopped drinking.
Speaker 3:I've had it really hard to have a conversation with people. I've got better for the record before anyone makes any comments and actually just being able to have a chat with people and feeling like I could engage with them on my own terms and feeling like accepted as part of the group was a really big deal for me. I think it's funny when you can have those experiences. I'd be like what 31 at the time and just the impact I can have on yourself as an adult is pretty crazy. So, yeah, that was, it was life changing for you. Sure, no, I mean it was. It had a really big impact. So it gave me a little confidence that I've been able to take into other areas of my life. I try and make less snarky comments as time goes on. For the record, it did have a really big impact, for sure.
Speaker 1:Anybody else. Big moments for you.
Speaker 4:I think for me it was just at the scale of the club.
Speaker 2:Well, no, that's right. Like I joined 10 years ago and we couldn't field a second team, I played my first season with 12, 13, 14 players on the second team and, after injuries on Saturday, we were on about the same numbers. But for us to have, like Matt, you're going to know the numbers better than I am, but for us to now have what? Four, three, 300 members.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I think the most recent one we went to in Birmingham for Union, we took I think it was 150 players across five and a bit teams.
Speaker 4:I think just sort of the scale of that and realising just how many people involved to make that work. I think the moment for me was probably actually after that tournament was finished. So in the days following that there were so many sort of post-tournament blues on the fact that I'd got used to going down for breakfast and seeing a whole load of people who were genuinely happy to be there with each other and excited for the day ahead, even though it was a real big physical effort on all fronts. And then I guess, looking at the scale of what we're taking there compared to even other teams, just realising how big the club is but how everybody in that club was there for each other and the atmosphere across the couple of days was immense. And I'd been on countless rugby tours with work and all the rest of it. But I'd never experienced anything post-tournament like that first one with the Steelers and I think it's just how everybody connected and worked together and supported each other and even just getting used to seeing people and socialising and it was amazing really.
Speaker 2:Matt right, yeah, I know, but that was a very serious answer. I wasn't going to say fractured collarbone last week, but it does make you realise just how it is a very physical sport and you are actually fragile Every break, every break like that, and seeing how all your team mates come around you. I've had check-ins from people that I probably had about four conversations with the entire time I've been in the club People constantly messaging you and it does make you realise that you are a part of something that is quite big and it is a community.
Speaker 1:Talking about being inclusive, let's talk about trans. Let's bring that into the factor here. How inclusive is the team?
Speaker 2:As inclusive as we can be under the RFU guidelines. Smart answer.
Speaker 1:I was talking about this today with friends at lunch and I was saying this is the interview I'm doing tonight and they were like OK, so inclusive, are there straight guys playing? Are there trans people playing? They were asking all those questions and it's great that we are able to sit around the table and ask those questions and talk about it. So tell me everything.
Speaker 2:We've got a really good bunch of straight guys, like the ally Lamas. They are cool boys. There's quite a few of them now. Actually, my timeline is that someone worked with someone or someone was a brother of someone and then they brought a mate and then they brought a mate I think.
Speaker 2:Last year and quite a few of us here were involved on, we started a touch rugby arm of the club which is called Eastern Electric, in partnership with the Kings Cross Steelers. I really helped coach that. Matt Wright helped coach that as well. We did get a couple of trans players down and it was just really really good. Not just that we had straight guys, gay guys, straight women, gay women it was just this awesome mix of people about 45 in the end that got together for 12 weeks to learn how to play touch rugby. For a lot of them, touch rugby is still. There's some leagues that are men only. There are some mixed leagues, but it was just good to have, I suppose, a very queer space for people to get involved and try something new.
Speaker 2:We had boys come back that has injured out of the Steelers or aged out of the Steelers. It was just really good to have an awesome mix of people and bring back some faces we've not seen. One of the guys did a pathway with me 10 years ago and hasn't been around the club for eight years and it was just great to see him back. We do also have the pathway at a rugby program that we run every year. We've had trans players do that. We men, people who identify as women all go through that pathway program and then they will move into their respective teams. We have a partnership with the East London Fixings as well, so for women's rugby then, obviously we will then get some roadblocks when we do end up getting into the league situations, but we can make it. There is a place for everyone within the Steelers whether that is a pathway, coaching touch, anyone who wants to be a part of it. We do even allow the straight people in. We will give them that space.
Speaker 1:That's the number one question that was being asked to ask you guys believe it or not?
Speaker 4:It is probably one of the most common questions that comes our way. To be fair.
Speaker 2:That, and do you look at each other in the shower?
Speaker 1:Are we going to have to edit that out or no, up to you. No, I think it does get hot a lot. That actually wasn't asked for me to ask you, but I'm glad you brought it up. What's the answer?
Speaker 4:Comment. Probably more so the opposition than we're in a club. Somebody said this the other day. It's exactly the same when I came out in my rugby club at home, the people that you spent all that time with their mates, they feel like family. You just don't look at me in that way, do you know? I think, apart from the ones in the club that have had inter-club relations I guess probably a lot between a lot of the teams, isn't it that you probably look at each other and not that bothered because she may not be interested.
Speaker 1:Sure, I've read that there's been a marriage within the club, wasn't there?
Speaker 2:It's been a couple over the years, I think the other thing about, on a serious note, about showering together, and this is just one thing that I've noticed Sometimes when we do play other teams, because rugby showers are just super mixed right, Like everyone just gets in one shower you, the opposition, the other team, the other opposition.
Speaker 3:Interested to know where this story is going.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. There are occasions where we'll go and play Essex Club X, you know, and someone or one or two people will know the Steelers are there and they'll go into the showers with their boxes on Number one. It's always the rotten looking ones that do it and like to be fair, and this is another thing about how players aren't the problem in rugby, like I have witnessed other players go. If you're going to take your boxers off, don't get in the shower, like because, like as if to say, if you're doing it because you're worried they're going to look at you, they've got much nicer things to look at. So sort your life out. So that's nice.
Speaker 3:I think we've also played clubs. We'll get there like budgie smuggler, merch out. When you go and play them and parade around like the clubhouse in it for a laugh and you're like you know what guys, you're good, you can put your clothes back on, but you do you. So it's kind of yeah, it's an interesting one.
Speaker 1:Do you feel that you have a responsibility to show yourself? Because you mentioned the pride parade, do you feel like you have to be on that float representing I wish it was a float.
Speaker 2:I'd been less walking yeah.
Speaker 1:But do you feel like you have to take part in that?
Speaker 4:No, I've never been, to be honest with you. No, it's interesting because I was quite key. I went to the Pride game on Friday representing Steelers, and we've partnered with Harla Quin, so I do a bit of work with Quinns as well. So I did feel like I should be there in my role with the club. But as somebody who's part of the community, I don't necessarily feel that I need to go to parades and I don't really know why. This doesn't really bother me too much. But then again, in my day job, if I feel the need to represent the community and explain, to correct people who are inappropriate, then I do feel a responsibility. So I don't know, it's really mixed, really mixed there.
Speaker 1:How do you guys feel about it?
Speaker 3:So I think my view is quite similar to Matt's. If you want to go amazing, I haven't, and I think if I did it would be for selfish reasons, because I would want to do that for myself and I put myself out there and it's like a celebration of myself in that sense. But I don't feel a responsibility to do that for other people. I think it is quite a personal thing at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:But I mean amazing if you do, because it doesn't define you as an athlete.
Speaker 3:No, it's a great leveler in that sense as well. When you're on the pitch, everyone's a player. Everyone hits as hard, everyone plays for each other. It doesn't matter, chris.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I'm actually the steward in pride for the first time in about five years this year, like before, I'd always gone to pride. I just didn't have it in me to march, but I did it for a few years before then and I don't necessarily feel responsibility, but I do think it's nice that people know that there's a safe space they can go to and they may not learn about it unless they go to pride. That's not. I'm not trying to be a martyr. I'm not saying that. That's the whole reason I do it.
Speaker 2:I go to get drunk and to out with people, but I do think it's nice to see us and I really flick between. It's like we're athletes before, we're gay guys, but ultimately we're all together because we are in the LGBTQIA plus spectrum and as much as being gay doesn't define us. It is kind of what unites us in my eyes. So I do think it's great to go to, like the LGBT sports fair and you see the hockey players and the swimmers and the runners, and why can't I think of any other sports hockey players? I don't know.
Speaker 4:Divers gymnasts.
Speaker 2:Divers gymnasts. Yeah, yeah, matt, matt, classic Matt, remembering everyone in Lycra, but it is good to see like the evolution of gay sport, like the last, the last union again I'm doing the old cards, but the standard, as the union cup in Birmingham across all teams versus what it was in 2014 in Belgium, was just like the development of gay rugby over 10 years, has just been outstanding.
Speaker 1:Do you think you guys kind of have it lucky compared to like football, for example, because if someone's going to be hiding them who they are, they're not exactly surrounded by like minded people, so do you think that keeps them positive even more so?
Speaker 2:I mean there are about five gay football teams so they've played sport in the past and wanted to get like, find it again. Not necessarily because they are. There are quite a few, quite a lot and quite a few big clubs for other sports there. But the general perception around the sport, you know it depends on what, like, what level are they looking to play at. You know it all depends on the individual at that point because you know, if someone who's just trying to look into getting into a sport, getting into a team sport there's thousands of inclusive sports all across the world Whereas you know if they're playing professionally or semi pro or they've been playing all the years and playing you're playing in a certain league, then yeah, there will be pressures but it all depends on the environment they're with.
Speaker 2:There's so many different clubs. Football is a much larger sport than rugby. You know each town will have at least two teams, whereas rugby will probably one, or you know you'll have to travel to the next town for a rugby union team, especially up north. It's yeah, it's a very different sort of thing for them to do, but if they like, you know that's just the same as coming out to your mates, but it just means their mates might be slightly more homophobic.
Speaker 1:What's one great thing that you each bring to your team? Let's start with Matt R.
Speaker 4:That's a good question. I would like to say driving standards, but it's sometimes hit and miss. I'd hope the players understand that I'm trying to equip them with the ability to make decisions for themselves rather than the biggest thing I'll try to do is get away from being so structured and to coach principles and understanding. So I'm hoping the players will start to feel down the line a bit empowered that they've got the ability of the rugby player to make a decision, in fact the outcome of a game. I would hope that that's what they would see anyway.
Speaker 3:Wow, an amazing sense of humour. Obviously, I really like being part of the team. I feel like I've done a lot of solo and I think being able to be part of a bigger group and to give your best, to doing your best for yourself but for everyone else, is a really powerful thing, and so, yeah, I think I'd like to say that boys give 100%. I adore Seth Rao he does, and the sense of humour bit is what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, that bit too obviously.
Speaker 2:I think I give more off the pitch. I do. I love playing. I've enjoyed playing for a long time. I'm definitely at the end of my playing career but I'm a little bit of a mum or a drunk aunt probably, where I'm quite good at just checking in with people, maintaining relationships, organising stuff that gets us together, and I was the social sec before Matt was the social sec, so I really love playing and I'm amazing at lineouts, as everyone will nod too. But checking in with everybody off the pitch is probably my strength. Matt Rao, well, crystal, my drunk aunt line, probably being a bit of a dependable workhorse, really Always rocking up when I can and to training, I rarely miss something without a true valid reason. Not just I can't be bothered, I'm putting in a shift, making sure everyone on that pitch is comfortable, everyone's aware, trying to speed up that centre of reliability that everyone can at least turn to if either they're going through a tough time or to motivate them into doing a little bit better.
Speaker 1:Let's move into some quick fire questions and then let you guys have your night back. All right, last song you guys downloaded.
Speaker 2:Operation Minstmeat soundtrack. I don't use a computer. Yeah, I just have stream it. I don't download songs. Last song you streamed, no idea. I think I'm listening to an audio book at the moment.
Speaker 3:I'm listening to a lot of Pink at the moment. I'm enjoying that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you guys have a nickname and can you share it.
Speaker 2:Not that they've shared to my face. Yeah, not that I'm aware of. I think Chris actually can tell by that face I get called Lady White, but I don't really know where it came from.
Speaker 3:I've heard you call yourself Lady White, because everyone else does.
Speaker 2:You're the first lady in the club during lockdown. You're essentially Matt Webb's wife. Oh God. Who was your celebrity crushes growing up Orlando Bloomin Lord of the Rings. Oh is Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I'm going to say you and McGregor Trojan from the original Gladiators, so I'm your age.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you.
Speaker 4:I obviously don't have a life outside of rugby, so my name is Sonny Bill Williams. You play for the Orvillex.
Speaker 1:Favorite numbers Seven Number.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I hope I heard that correct, otherwise, 13.
Speaker 1:Anybody else have a favorite number?
Speaker 2:The one that I call the most at the moment is probably Matt Wright's mobile, so probably that.
Speaker 1:What does a person need to be happy? I don't know, can you?
Speaker 2:let us know when you find out.
Speaker 4:And that's too dangerous a question. That's great to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:Alrighty, what's the best age you've been so far?
Speaker 4:I'm five. Sorry, I heard that a bit differently.
Speaker 3:I'm good at 33, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to go 35, the year I am now. It's a good place at the moment. Work's good, boyfriend's good. Oh, you're just making sure you drop that one in, oh shit, 35. Oh boyfriend, just say that our Matt's boyfriend's get annoyed and you all can't get angry.
Speaker 1:On a scale from 1 to 10,. How hot do you like your shower? Like an eight.
Speaker 4:Eight. Yeah, it's good Eight in life.
Speaker 2:That's five that the rugby club would do.
Speaker 1:Strangest things in your closet. Is that a question?
Speaker 4:you want to ask, or it used to be me, but now we're.
Speaker 3:I think I've got some like fancy dress box, which has probably got some quite interesting animal print things. I've got some gold hot pants that are knocking around from my days dancing on bar tops.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've got a lot of leopard print, but that's so. I don't think that's strange at all. No, I agree, I agree. Pants with the ant chocks, they belong to you. No, I think, trap leopards, you've got a bull print and you're a bottom.
Speaker 1:Who inspires you?
Speaker 3:I listen to amazing podcasts with Kelly Holmes and I'm just in awe of Kelly Holmes. I'm a massive fan, not just because I listen to like one podcast I'm not that easy, but yeah, incredible athlete, incredible role model and like listen to her story, just like that mentality. What a person.
Speaker 2:The boys down the rugby club like it's a cliche answer, but it's such a rug tag group of misfits that we don't always all see eye to eye, but at the core most of them are very hardworking, very, very lovely boys.
Speaker 1:That's the most compliment you've ever been given, worth every penny, there's a rugby context in my head.
Speaker 2:I think it's got. Marshall once told me I didn't play shit. That was fun.
Speaker 1:It was one time.
Speaker 2:It was one time I've not got it out of Rosia yet, so like have you taken that off?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you have to take it off.
Speaker 2:I've been injured Matt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we go. What was the last thing you've Googled, god, everybody goes Thailand.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's Italy accommodation, because I've been said I was going to put that for months and I'm pretty sure I've got a book it for our Matt as well. So yeah, that was on my list tonight, probably just a spelling of something, you all pretending it wasn't porn.
Speaker 3:It's very some sort of Wikipedia, deep dive, you know. But you remember like a character and like a soap opera and you're like what happened to them and then you Google them.
Speaker 2:I can see you all nodding. Yeah, there's a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Yesterday, when I was just binge watching telly, this is a dodgy question and I probably would skip it, but it's quite interesting how people can answer it. Take it the way you want it First thing you grab in the morning.
Speaker 4:It depends on the mood.
Speaker 1:There is one answer that most people give. You'd be surprised.
Speaker 2:I mean probably be the phone to turn off the alarm.
Speaker 4:Oh, good point yeah.
Speaker 2:It's usually your mobile, I don't know what you guys were thinking but yeah it turns out of a way of, naturally or not.
Speaker 1:Favorite social media app Instagram.
Speaker 3:Instagram. Yeah, we're all adults.
Speaker 2:We don't use.
Speaker 1:TikTok Call or text Call Text. It depends on the mood, one moment in your life that you'd like to relive.
Speaker 2:Oh what in Lord of the Rings again for the first time? Yeah, Really, you did it just to watch Chris's face Winning sports president after you.
Speaker 3:That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:I think the first time you've won, to quote cool races right the bit where you finish them, not the actual bit during. That was a good one.
Speaker 2:Something you regret and don't say doing this podcast. Don't really regret doing anything like.
Speaker 3:Obviously I've made some tough choices, but it's kind of just led as to where I am now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with that day morning. Yeah, it was, for we were very rough, got a bit excited watching the traders. Six bottles of wine, babe. Why, why Six gin the traces.
Speaker 3:It's impressive Like a game or just thirsty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, drinking wine is the game.
Speaker 1:What advice would you give your teenage self? Don't be a dick.
Speaker 2:Well, you're not as good as he thinks you are. Just get over it. Do physics. Don't be as mean to your parents. They're trying to help.
Speaker 1:Good answer actually Breakfast, brunch or dinner.
Speaker 2:I love a good lunch Right in the middle of the day, like if you're not having the meal you need to eat in the middle. Got to be dinner.
Speaker 4:Big breakfast, the bed, thinking about food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm with that breakfast.
Speaker 1:Go to Dan's Macarena.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I'm the old one. You still are the old one.
Speaker 2:No, I've always been the heaven show last year. Go on, get a bit of plug and in for the heaven show. Buy tickets, raise us some money.
Speaker 1:Perfect, it's your self care regime.
Speaker 2:Sorry, my mind goes to frequent and often Exercise.
Speaker 1:Post prominent workplace distraction.
Speaker 2:Grinder, I was a really thick guy that says I saw my office.
Speaker 1:What advice would you give a new team member.
Speaker 3:I think in those especially coming to a club like CELES, the more you try, the more you get back. I think the more effort you put in, I think is fair.
Speaker 2:Just turn up to Brewers. It's four events a year.
Speaker 1:Please. What makes a great leader?
Speaker 2:Listening more than you talk Listening more than you talk.
Speaker 4:Noted.
Speaker 2:And explaining drills right the first time.
Speaker 1:So, besides rugby, if you could be an athlete in any other sport, which would it be? Gymnastics?
Speaker 2:Yeah, gymnastic, and say cricket.
Speaker 3:Cricket.
Speaker 1:Diving Biggest obstacle you're currently facing.
Speaker 4:Learning everybody's name when we get another 60, 70 new people every year. Work, just work.
Speaker 2:What my involvement is going to be in a rugby club when my uncle finally gives up Making sure that I like do the video and come back properly and just so I don't break it, break my bones again.
Speaker 1:Thanks, guys, for taking the time to do this and I can't wait to share this podcast. Thanks so much Thanks.