Rhea's story

Weaning a two year old booby monster while pregnant with your second child is a challenge! 

Rhea has breastfed her daughter Ilaria responsively for two years and they’ve found the weaning process tricky at times. In this episode, we talk about the emotional journey that they have been on together, and some new ideas that Rhea can perhaps use to ease the transition to being a mother to two in the coming weeks.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:46

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. This is going to be the story of Rhea Bailey's breastfeeding. So Rhea is an actress and a writer, and a parent and a wife. And she's currently 36 weeks pregnant. So I'm very grateful that she can take the time to talk to me today. And, and if at any point, you need a break or rest or a drink of water, or a toilet break, we will completely understand. So we're talking about your breastfeeding experience first time around with your daughter Ilaria, who's now 2.3 years old, two years, three months, but she's just about to be a big sister. So we'll also talk about your expectations for your second baby and how you made the decision to turn them feed or not turned and feed. And basically we're just going to talk about your story. And I'm really grateful for you for joining me today, thanks Rhea.

Rhea Bailey  01:35

Thank you so much for having me.

Emma Pickett  01:36

So Ilaria is currently napping somewhere, is that right? 

Rhea Bailey  01:41

No. She's downstairs, having a late lunch and being bribed with all sorts of snacks, painting slime, anything to keep her downstairs.

Emma Pickett  01:50

Okay, okay, well, if that doesn't work, and she ends up knocking on the door, no one will blame her at all. So fair enough. So talk us through your first experience of breastfeeding with alaria. And how that went. So before you had her? What did you know about breastfeeding? Did you have people close to you that had breastfed? What were your kind of intentions around breastfeeding?

Rhea Bailey  02:13

So before I had Ilaria, everyone in my family has historically just breastfed naturally, easily as if it was, you know, as if it was as simple as drinking a glass of water. So I had these expectations that I would just do the same. Everybody on my partner side of the family historically doesn't breastfeed. So that's been an interesting part of the journey that we could touch on later, maybe. But I just assumed it would be easy. I assumed it would be a lot easier than having to get up in the night and clean bottles and sterilise things. And so the second Ilaria was born, we had a home birth, which is really great. She did this little kangaroo thing where she can, like crawled up and like have a baby root crawls out of the pouch. And she crawled on my body to get to the milk. And I was like, This is amazing. And I was really struck initially by how painful it was.

Emma Pickett  03:11

Oh, I'm sorry, you had that? That first experience. So after that breast crawl you had it's meant to be pain free and wonderful, isn't it? All the videos, it's all meant to be instinctive and lovely. So that first latch for you was really uncomfortable with it. Tell me a bit more about that. 

Rhea Bailey  03:26

Yeah, for for the first three weeks, it was really uncomfortable. I had some help from, you know, breastfeeding experts to show me good latch everything we had. We had our own private midwife who was assuring me this is a good latch. You know, this is this is going well. But for some reason, it was incredibly painful for me. And when I spoke to my sisters and my mom about it, they shared Oh, yeah, yeah, it was really painful to start with. And I was like, Oh, right. Nobody told me that. So I got over the three week hump of this pain and was told after three weeks, it's going to subside. And then after three months, it'll be like second nature. 

Emma Pickett  04:04

Gosh, that's quite a long time to hang on in pain. Isn't it real? I'm going to be a bit cheeky here. And so I'm not saying that your mums and your sisters are talking nonsense, because some people genuinely do experience pain for a while. But I wouldn't want someone listening to this. And I wouldn't want you in a month's time to think it's meant to be painful for three weeks. Now. I would I wouldn't say that was necessarily a common experience or everybody's experience. And I know that's really hard for me to say that because it sounds like I'm dismissing what they said or dismissing what you went through. But I don't want you to think that's what's gonna happen in a month time when you give birth necessarily. 

Rhea Bailey  04:37

Right. And that is that's sort of a fear of mine. But I agree. I don't I don't want to put anybody off. I just think I wished I know that that could be a possibility. And that maybe that is something that I don't know runs in our family genetically or, but I was surprised because a lot of people who I know and spoke to didn't have pain and didn't find it uncomfortable. And also had that sort of Good and rush of love and those amazing hormonal feelings that just make you feel all snuggly and bonded to your baby. And I wasn't getting that either. So I was pretty disappointed. But the reason I wanted to push on with it was because I know so much about the benefits and how brilliant and how amazing and how essential it is for your baby. So I wanted to keep going. And I felt I felt really grateful that my body worked, I felt really grateful that, you know, everything was happening as it should. So that was sort of also spurred me on to keep going. And we did get to a point where it did definitely feel like second nature said I don't like to call it on demand, I'd like to call it let's see the word I'd used.

Emma Pickett  05:46

People sometimes say responsive. That's often what that's what UNICEF Baby Friendly like to say. So I'm really impressed that you were you were able to have this kind of positive mental attitude when you're in pain for three weeks. You know, you had the sort of dream birth in some way stem for home birth with a private midwife is what some people would really love. Okay, and I'm so sorry that you that was followed then by being in pain for as long as you were when you say you're in pain was it did it? Were there ever fields where it was better? Or was it literally every single feed and what was happening to the state of your nipples at the time you were in pain?

Rhea Bailey  06:18

Again, I don't want to put people off, it genuinely felt I need us shooting through my nipples. And I don't know why I made my nipples are particularly sensitive or something. But it was over over overridden by, you know, the lover half of my child, I guess. So I just and how I knew I was doing the right thing for her. But that did that did subside after three weeks. And it did become more like second nature.

Emma Pickett  06:41

But three weeks, I'm not able to bang on about why terrible timing. Three weeks is a long time. So I want you to have some sort of sense of, you know, wow, I mean, you're amazing to continue. And also that's going to impact on your oxytocin hormone. Oxytocin hormone is the hormone that we need to feel that sense of connection and bonding. So it would be natural if you're in pain with every fee to to not feel that rush of oxytocin and that rush of bonding, did you manage to talk to anyone else about those feelings at the beginning that you did weren't feeling that sort of Rush, which I think is really important people to hear about.

Rhea Bailey  07:15

I didn't actually I think I was quite embarrassed. I think I felt like maybe there was something wrong with me because I wasn't getting those emotions and those feelings. So I just thought if I just keep going, maybe they'll come. And like I said, I did do responsive feeding for the full two years. And it definitely did become more like second nature. And it just at first, I was also very overwhelmed by how much you wanted to feed. So I definitely find that really overwhelming. And I just sort of thought, how am I going to keep doing this? Like, as she was my first child, I felt the same about nappies as well. I was like, how am I going to change a nappy this much? Forever? You know, and it feels like how can I do this forever. But, of course, it's not forever. It's a moment in time. And there's so many different phases with babies. And they're so short lived, even though in that moment, they feel really long, I did have to just take it one feed at a time, one nappy at a time, one day at a time. And it just did become more routine. So it became even though you know, the beginning, I was really curling up my toes and holding on to the couch at times. It just became more routine. And it just it did get easier.

Emma Pickett  08:30

And did you have one day when it was suddenly easier? Or did someone give you a suggestion around positioning attachment? Or did it very gradually get easier? How did it to make a change?

Rhea Bailey  08:39

I think it did gradually get easier, just within those first few weeks. And I just tried different positions, I tried adjusting her she found her groove, I sort of just let her find her way. It's been very much the same with my parenting from the off, I've let her lead. And I've really found that if I stick with my instincts and let her lead, she'll tell me what she needs. And she'll do what she needs to do. That was the same with the birth. I didn't do anything. She did everything.

Emma Pickett  09:09

You were involved.

Rhea Bailey  09:11

I just leaned forward and just did a lot of breathing. And you know, I didn't at any point. Nobody told me when to push my body just my body. My mind didn't do anything. My body did it. 

Emma Pickett  09:21

Your body is still you, isn't it? I don't want you to make it sound like you didn't do any work. And to and to responsibly breastfeed for two years is amazing. And we'll talk a little bit more in a minute. You said that your partner's family hadn't breastfed. Did that mean that when he saw you in pain, his reaction was What are you doing this is this is bananas or did he know it mattered to you? How are you able to have that conversation? 

Rhea Bailey  09:45

Well, we've done a lot of reading beforehand. And I know a lot of facts and things so I shared with him. We can have both read Kate Evans, food of love as well. That's a great but yeah, and my partner is a real advocate for good health. And so he was really you're up for it. But he was equally surprises me that maybe not everybody has this easy experience and that nobody had shared with me that it could potentially hurt. You know, I think majority doesn't. So I think he was as surprised as I was, but he was really, really encouraging, really supportive. So I was really lucky in that respect to have a supportive partner. I think we really need that in breastfeeding support. If someone don't, yeah, yeah. But it was really difficult with his family, because they didn't understand what I was doing while I was doing it. throughout the two years as well, if not really understood, why, perhaps she's not a great sleeper. And maybe if you just gave her the bottle, she'd sleep for longer. And, you know, had a lot of comments of oh, gosh, it you know, if you give her the bottle, you could give it to me, and you could have a break and a lot of those sort of comments. Every time I've been in their presence and feeding. And there's been a lot of questions as though I'm some sort of font of knowledge of all breastfeeding knowledge that I've tried to answer. But it has been really difficult, almost like us against them in terms of breastfeeding, because they just didn't understand the importance or the need, or the health benefits, even the amount of times I tell them this fact and that fact about, you know what it's doing for her immunity. And she's ill, she's getting antibodies and all these things. It's as if it sort of went in one ear and out the other and still was irrelevant to Oh, yeah, but you're really tired, you wouldn't be as tired. And so I didn't have the support from that side. But I have had it from the other side, thankfully.

Emma Pickett  11:36

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry to hear that. That's what it sounds like. You've been able to speak your side of things and talk to them and give them information which is, which is great and unlisted, at least if it was going in one ear and out the other, I guess at least it was going in one ear. We're definitely you were trying, which is really valuable. And you had your your mom continuing to support you. So were you breastfeed yourself, did you? I'm guessing you were if your mom breastfed your sisters, but

Rhea Bailey  12:02

until I was eight months, apparently at eight months, I was spitting it out, didn't want to know wasn't interested. And my mum was really upset because I'm the youngest. So I was the last of her babies. My older two sisters were they fed for longer, one fed. So she was three one Fed chair, she was two and a half. And I have this theory, however ridiculous on ridiculous that they're both they're both more academically intelligent than me. And they're both slimmer than me. So I feel like if I just had a bit longer, I might have a few more brain cells. And I might be a bit more lean, you know, because there are facts about adult obesity and things like that. But I'm hardly obese. So I've probably been a bit anxious.

Emma Pickett  12:44

bit hard on your poor mom or your feet. You rejected it Rhea, it's your darn fault! You're the one who was getting out.

Rhea Bailey  12:52

But yeah, so to have the middle child had fed till she was over three. And my mom was really like it having enough wanted to tear her hair out. But then when she had me as the final baby, you know, she did feel really upset that that journey was over quite quickly.

Emma Pickett  13:07

So I'm guessing she was really very much empathic with you when it comes to wanting to continue to feed alaria. And knowing how important that was to you, and, and you know, she's certainly not the person who's going to tell you to stop feeding in six months, you definitely had time on your side, which is, which is great.

Rhea Bailey  13:20

Absolutely. And then my oldest sister is still feeding her Two girls, one is nearly four. And actually, she's just finished feeding her oldest child who's six. So brilliant. She has been really just a champion for me to sort of watch, but also an example for me to watch and go. Okay, this is hardcore. I don't think I want to tandem feed.

Emma Pickett  13:42

Yeah, I was just gonna say so she must attend and fed them. Presumably she was so she gave birth to number two while she was still feeding number one. And, and you made the decision not to which I think is going to be really useful to talk through because lots of people are stuck in that decision and they don't know what to do. So you knew you wanted baby number two, tell me to get stuffed if this is a too personal question, but where you can try to conceive baby number two, or did it happen accidentally? 

Rhea Bailey  14:06

Yeah, it was really trying to conceive baby number two, as soon as possible. Not because we already but more because of our age. I'm 41 partners and only 42. So I just thought Oh, I better get this done quicker because it had taken us quite a while to conceive Ilaria so I thought maybe my age is older than some at my actual birth age. So I just thought I better hurry up. And I don't have the resources to pay it for extensive, you know, private routes to have a baby so I thought right before we've got to pay for it. Let's just try and get it done in that window where they tell you all you had the fertile after you've had a baby. But again, it took us over a year to get pregnant again with this baby. And obviously I know a year is a natural amount of time for it to take to get pregnant but yet took us over a year both of them. 

Emma Pickett  14:53

So how quickly did your period come back when you were feeding? alaria so you were feeding responsively How long did you need to wait for your period to return?

Rhea Bailey  15:02

Well, in some regards, I was lucky in that both my sisters periods didn't return for over a year. But my period came a month after.

Emma Pickett  15:13

Okay, that's really interesting. So I think I'm really glad that that was that's something you can share today, because I think a lot of people assume if you're responsively, breastfeeding, and exclusively breastfeeding, that is so not going to happen. But so you didn't even miss a cycle by the sounds of it. Your body was super keen to to get on with things. Yeah. So inconvenient. Some people are worried about that. And they think, oh, no, my periods come back really quickly. That must mean, there's something wrong with my milk supply, or there's something wrong with my hormones, but breastfeeding was going well, no problems with weight gain, everything. nappies good, all good. 

Rhea Bailey  15:47

Everything was really good. Everything was textbook in that respect. And yeah, my period just came back. And I spoke to the GP and I was a bit like, I don't understand why I've got my period already. And they were like, Oh, it can just come back. At any point. Everything's fine. And I was like, Oh, great. Okay. But I do have a friend of my NCT group who she decided to stop breastfeeding one and a half because she wanted her period to come back because she was trying to conceive a second child. So she felt she had to so I guess everybody's body is just so different. And whether she actually had to or not, I don't know. But I do know, she regretted stopping food in her daughter when she did. But she was very keen to get pregnant again. So she made that sacrifice and that choice to get her period back. But I didn't have to do that it came back to quickly.

Emma Pickett  16:36

Okay, so you then conceive baby number two? Do you know if baby number two is a boy or girl?

Rhea Bailey  16:42

It's another girl? 

Emma Pickett  16:45

Congratulations. 

Rhea Bailey  16:46

Thank you, I think because we think this will be our last child. We were a little bit like, Oh, no boy, but so grateful that she's healthy. And actually, I was a bit nervous, because I've got friends whose girls just at the moment, just fight and territories higher up. So I'm really hoping to foster a good relationship between them. And I'm hoping they'll get on. I mean, I love my sisters. We didn't fight that much growing up. So hopefully, there'll be okay.

Emma Pickett  17:12

Yeah, you've got that model of having sisters yourself. And I'm sure they'll have a lovely relationship for sure. And so you were when you fell pregnant, you were still breastfeeding. alaria tell me about how frequently she was feeding around the time that you got pregnant. 

Rhea Bailey  17:27

I would say she was still feeding 12 to 18 times a day. She doesn't feed. She's never been someone that feeds for a long time. Like I've never had a baby that feeds for like an hour or feeds for like 40 minutes. It's always been like a little snack. And then off she goes, she's so busy. So it's, it's always it was always just like a need to melt. Okay, and for various reasons. You know, like, she's thirsty, she's hungry. She wants comfort, you know, she just wants to know where I am like. So it was it was very frequent. And I just decided I wanted to try and wean her I was really adamant. I wanted to try and get to two, because the NHS has to and beyond. I was like, right, let me try and get to two. And I started weaning her before two. But I had no idea how difficult and how hard it was going to be to wean her off because to use your phrase, she's definitely a boogie monster. Yeah. And it's still unfortunately a Baby Monster. 

Emma Pickett  18:28

Well, she's it's still only been a few weeks. That's given a moment. I mean, that was that was her home for a very long time. So it might take a little bit of time to adjust. So, so yeah, he was feeding 12 to 18 times. So I'm guessing that was through the night. Yeah, do that. And for the day, were you co sleeping with her now?

Rhea Bailey  18:45

So okay, we started off co sleeping and we were co sleeping until Ilaria was eight months and then by that time, it was a summer it was really harsh. She was sort of kicking about she narrowly space and actually, as soon as I put her in a car, she slept better and I was like, Oh, I felt bad because I really wanted that we wanted to co sleep. And the sort of next to me wasn't working. So well. Okay, great. Well co sleep but actually, I think she was happy at that point to have more space from us. Okay, but it just meant I was getting up. I guess I was getting up like four or five times in the night. 

Emma Pickett  19:22

Yeah, that is that you need a metal ribbon. is tough. That is so tough. To get up to have to go into a different space. Was she actually a different room at this point? Yes. So walking into another room, hearing her cry, getting roused, walking into another room feeding settling her going back to bed, doing that four or five times you are Superwoman. Literally a superwoman. Thank you. That is amazing. Amazing that you carried on breastfeeding and that through that pattern just absolutely amazing. And, and so she was waking up requesting a feed Did you have a go at settling without feeding or at that point, you weren't necessarily wanting to win so you just kept going with breastfeeding at night. 

Rhea Bailey  20:00

Yeah, I didn't at first I just I just fed her when she want you to feed. Tried so carefully to put her back. Why is that cut so deep? You know, you're like, she's gonna wake up. She's woken up. What's that again? So I wasn't trying to weight her at first. But then when I was trying to wean her, I was trying to sort of pare back to sleep, but she just get angry. And so that I found really difficult. The weaning process was really, really difficult for me. 

Emma Pickett  20:29

Yeah, talk me through how that went. So you made the decision and doesn't sound like it was a big dilemma for you, it sounded like you, you knew you didn't want to turn on feed. Tell me a bit more about how you knew how you were so clear. That's what you wanted to do.

Rhea Bailey  20:42

Or sadly, I got aversion. And I didn't know it was a real thing. Until my sister told me she was like, you know, that's an actual medical thing. Like, you know, there's the way you're feeling like, I was angry, I was uncomfortable. I couldn't stand being torched. I couldn't, couldn't stand it. And it was really upsetting because I've gone from just it being the norm and being really grateful that, you know, I'm able to supply food for my baby whenever she needs it to just be like, Ah, so I was really shocked, but grateful and relieved to find out it's a real thing. It's not my fault. You know, it can just happen. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So as soon as I got a version, I was like, Okay, we've got to deal with this, I've got to, I've got to wean her. So everybody was sort of like, Oh, you just drop a nap, you just yet not dropping out, you drop a feed here, you just then you drop another feed. And it's just like, she's never fed on a schedule, how am I going to do this?

Emma Pickett  21:36

Yeah, that idea about dropping one feed at a time. That's true. If you are dealing with a baby, under 12 months, you're replacing a feed with a bottle. That's the sort of thinking that we do with those sort of scheduled feeds. But with a two year old, dropping one feed at a time is not going to be a concept that means very much to you. So, so you were trying to do that and what was happening?

Rhea Bailey  21:58

It was quite successful in terms of distracting her with other things. So I was distracting her with things that weren't necessarily good habits. But basically, I tried, I took some of your advice, I took some of the other people's I tried to read books on it. I was distracting her with like playing with her or giving her more attention in other ways. But then I was finding the things that were effective, like giving her chocolate or giving her my phone, you know, and I'm embarrassed to admit that, but that's actually what was working. And that's what I needed to do at the time. So those were the things I was distracting her with, and giving her a bottle of cow's milk wasn't working. Like she wasn't interested in that. So that wasn't, it wasn't like I could replace breast milk for cow's milk. 

Emma Pickett  22:38

Because yeah, I think that's super important that you say that, because that you know, this age, it is you might as well be giving her a pair of gardening tongs. Yeah. You know, what does it even mean? This is what Hey, what's that got to do with breastfeeding? It's just so abstract the idea of cow's milk being a replacement for for breastfeed, and, and it doesn't for her, it just doesn't it's not even on the same level. So not you know, you say you're embarrassed about giving chocolate or giving a phone. Anyone who knows anything about aversion RIA is not going to judge you on any level for that, because a version is so grim, and you knew it was self preservation. At that point, you, you really needed to protect yourself. And, you know, it's not like giving her chocolate or giving her phone is gonna cause her to turn into some sort of monster, it's completely fair enough that that's what you would choose to do. And if it worked, it worked. I mean, you've got the that feed didn't happen. Those few minutes. You were rescued and saved. And you know that, you know, that's if that's the method that helped you in that moment. That worked. That's what worked for you. Yeah. So you were trying to give her the milk as well, sometimes were You were you were you worried about her diet? What was her eating like? 

Rhea Bailey  23:44

She eats like a trooper. So other people would also say, I'll just replace it with food or just, you know, and I'm like, No, it's not necessarily that she needs more food, she's not hungry. You know, so then you've got people making the comments like, Oh, she's just using like a domain, or she's just using it for comfort and either would then respond with, but that's okay to comfort my child. I know what's wrong with that? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Not using me like a domain or domain or replacement of milk. So, you know, that was also really hard to combat at the same time as trying to muddle through this, but I managed to get her down to just night feeds. And then she was sleeping a little bit better because she was eating more. So she was having, I was feeding her to sleep then I was feeding once or twice in the night. And then first thing in the morning.

Emma Pickett  24:36

So you were in those day feeds. 

Rhea Bailey  24:38

Yeah, it took months. It took about three months. 

Emma Pickett  24:41

Okay, and did so you're giving her distractions you're doing playing you're offering other things. You said that you had read some weaning books with her as well. Did you tell her what was happening? Did she ever did you talk about it with her? How did that go down?

Rhea Bailey  24:53

Yeah, I kept trying to explain that we're not going to have milk anymore that Mommy's not going to be Need your milk anymore. And I kept trying to explain, I think she was a little bit too young for the book, she didn't really get it. Also, she doesn't really sit for a book. She's so busy. So I definitely don't think those worked at her level, unfortunately. But trying to explain it and just explaining mommy's really tired, This really hurts my mum, it's really uncomfortable. Like, we just need to try something else. And can you have this? Or can I give you that? Or can we, let's go do this. So it took I started before she was two, and it took like, three and a half months to get to those three or four feet down from like, 12 to like, 18 on a bad day.

Emma Pickett  25:40

Ok. Thank you for model modelling, how to be honest, because I think some people are really shy away from Oh, I don't want to tell her. I don't want to say that I'm in pain. But actually, that's really important. I think that was your that was your truth. And sharing your truth with her, even though she may not fully understand it at two is, you know, even she's gonna pick up that there's authenticity behind that, which I think is is really valuable and really important. 

Rhea Bailey  26:06

Yeah. And I do think in some ways that, again, like everybody's experience is different. The majority of people I would speak to said, Oh, we just cut it out for two days. And then he didn't want to know. And I was like, what? You know, I was literally speaking to people who were completely at the other end of the spectrum, who were saying, oh, yeah, it took us two weeks, or Oh, yeah, we dropped the feeds. And within a week, she didn't want to know, she wasn't interested. Or I was just like, Why? Why is Ilaria holding on to it so much. That's when I started to seek out people like you online and who I could really, you know, get help from. But I just say that to say that a lot of people don't have this experience. Other people do sort of find it a bit more textbook, and they're like, Okay, so now we're weaning, and it stopped quite easily because I replaced it with a banana or I had a friend who said, I just used to give her a banana. And I was like, right, okay, I'll try. You know, she's like, No bananas, please. So everybody's experience again, is different. But I, I only say all this to let those viewer people now, it's not just me that's having a nightmare.

Emma Pickett  27:12

I don't think you're necessarily the fewer honestly, I mean, a two, a two year old, who's a baby monster that's feeding 12 to 18 times a day, I think, two to three months to be able to win and the day is not that unusual. I don't want you to think there's something incredibly off, you know, you're right at the end of some spectrum of normal because I don't think you necessarily are, I don't know many booby monsters who are like, yeah, sure, no problem. Here's my fourth banana of the day. Yeah, that's fine by me. So when you say it was taking that long, I'm just trying to imagine it's let's imagine it's two o'clock in the afternoon. Ilaria says going to have a breastfeed. You say, Oh, sweetie, mommy's saw mommy's tired. Let's do this instead. And she was just saying no Sod off where she and you were thinking, this, I can sense that she's really emotionally needing this. And no, this is not the moment to push it. How far did you go with her being upset? I mean, tell me a little bit about what that moment looks like when she asks for a feed. And you say no, what what happened in that moment.

Rhea Bailey  28:13

Some days are easier than others. Some days, I was surprised, I could just distract her at the drop of a hat. And I was like, Oh, she obviously wasn't really desperate for it. And then other days, she'd get really sad and upset. And then I just decided to either given or, yeah, given. So there were times when I did, I did just give him but we've never let her cry. So we've never done any, like, cry it out. We've never let her cry. And always, whenever she's had any need, I just took my boob and I'm off and she's not been upset. So that was also my go to. So I had to learn a new pattern and a new way to comfort my child, which I'm still having to learn. But yeah, each time each time was different. Sometimes she'd be easily distracted, but I did resort to her being on kids YouTube more than I wanted to have my chocolate and I want her to have but where we're at Unfortunately now that is different level of this is now she wants to hold the milk. So she no longer has to feed. So for weeks after we actually managed to fully fully stop. She would still ask for it and I would still try to distract her. But now she'll say hold the milk hold the milk please hold them up, please. And you're still getting up in the night. On a bad night three times on a good night once well on a really good night often she will sleep through but only she's gone to bed really late. So she's asking to hold the milk and I'm finding that quite challenging as well. Especially because I've got this dead like this like date looming over me. My babies do she's she's ready to come I'm thinking how am I going to feed a new baby and have a toddler that just wants to have her hand on my nipple to go to sleep. 

Emma Pickett  30:03

Okay, so specifically the nipples that she's wanting to put her hand on your nipple,

Rhea Bailey  30:07

while she puts her whole hand over the the nipple and the breast tissue, she just have to insist I say, to keep your hands sterile, because I can't stand it if she starts to try and twiddle because there's still some aversion there. And why am I nipples have not lost and have not lost feeling at this point? I'm not sure, but I wished it was. Because I could still feel everything. And I'm thinking, Oh, I feel like it does not feel it anymore. But yeah, sure, it's when she's trying to grapple and put her hands down my top. And so I then have to negotiate putting her hand in there. And I'm thinking this is crazy, I'm giving her and willingly offering WebU would say, hey, put your hand on my boob. And then she could sleep in seconds. You know, in the night, if Darren, my partner, if, if she wakes up, we'll try and send him in. Because we're really trying to get her more used to him going in settling her before this baby comes. And we've been trying for months. But if he goes in, sometimes she'll be really upset. Sometimes she'll fit and scream and ask for me and I need Mommy, I need mommy. And then when I get in there, she literally wants to hold them up. But she goes straight to sleep. And so if I just go in there first, she barely wakes up. And for about a minute and a half. She just has her hand on me goes back to sleep. So it's really difficult because it's easier for me to just go in and do that, and then climb back up the stairs and come to bed. But actually, it's not going to work for us in the long term. So I'm sort of getting quite nervous about how I'm going to move forward.

Emma Pickett  31:40

Okay, well, let's talk about that in a minute. And we'll see if we can come up with some ideas together. But before we do that, that's so with your night weaning. How did you end up completely weaning? So you were down to no daytime feeds? You were just feeding to sleep feeding on the night feeding in the morning? How did you then get to not breastfeeding at all,

Rhea Bailey  31:56

I did the thing that is not advised. Unfortunately, I resorted to my last, my last ditch, hope all was to get my sister to come and stay with us. So my sister did the night, two nights, I left the house. And it's the really, really, really didn't want to do it. But I really didn't. I felt cruel. She has never really been without me. I've never had a night away with friends. I've never I've not been that parent. But she's very close to my sister. And my sister just said, I'm not going to try and like make her sleep if she wants to stay up if we want to watch films if we want to. I'm going to make it fun. So we didn't like do it, like leave her in the car and move it to cry. And we didn't do any of that. My sister just hung out with her for two nights. And I was really surprised that after the weekend in aria was completely fine. I thought I thought was going to break her. I was so scared, you know, but I was also at my wit's end with the aversion. But she was fine. And at that point, she wasn't straight away. As soon as she saw me, she wasn't getting milk milk, I need milk. She was just like, Oh, Hi, Mommy. And I was like, wow. So that was a relief in some ways. But for a few weeks after that, she just did still occasionally ask for milk.

Emma Pickett  33:13

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  34:00

So when we were putting her to bed, let some of UK you came back from this couple of nights where you're putting her to bed. How did you put it to bed the first time without breastfeeding? What did you do?

Rhea Bailey  34:10

We haven't managed to master that yet. So literally, there was no putting her to bed. She just wouldn't she doesn't know how to go to sleep without it. She still hasn't learned how to go to sleep without a breastfeed or without holding the milk. So unfortunately, we've had months now of just super late nights till she basically just passes out and crashes Okay, which I found really difficult. We've tried. We feel like we've tried everything and we're at the stage now I would just not allowing a nap at all so that she is at least more tired in the evening but for a while and nap was helping her sleep more solidly in the night so we're still learning I have a short nap in the day because she was sleeping more uninterruptedly at night. But it's just been this really crazy balance of like how do you teach your kid to sleep with that sleep training. We didn't want to do any sleep train. 

Emma Pickett  35:02

Yeah. No, I totally sympathise with that. So that the holding the milk thing, she came up with it herself did her dish. Yeah, it was her idea. So that night when you came back, and she was like, milk time, did you say no, we don't have milk anymore? Or how did you do it? I'm just trying to imagine you said, we don't have milk anymore. And she said, Can I hold the milk because it's gone. 

Rhea Bailey  35:24

Now that milk is gone. There's no more milk anymore, because now you're too I said, the milk for the babies. And it's all run out. Now I know that's not necessarily true. But that was what it is to say. I knew it was gonna run out. So I was like, the minutes are gone now. And then she said, Hold the milk. And I said, Well, if there's no milk in there, it's mommy's boobs. It's just like, but she's still just refers to it as holding her. And she still refers to as mine. It's my milk. It's mine. So I'm saying No, it's my body's mommy's body. Now it's mine and gets quite upset. 

Emma Pickett  35:56

I think we should take a moment actually to celebrate hold the mill moment, it's the sort of bane of your existence, but actually bloody clever, have come up with an alternative and, and you know, the fact that you didn't want it to be distressed and upset, and she did develop this new strategy herself. That's seriously clever. Plus, it don't work. So the fact that she only has to do it for a few seconds. Yes. That's that's pretty much it. 

Rhea Bailey  36:20

Yeah, that is what my partner said. He said, just think about where we were a few months ago, and you're in a lot of pain, or on your nipple. So at least now she's just holding it, and it's working straight away.

Emma Pickett  36:30

And it really does work. I mean, that it's a bit of a gift. I know. You're thinking, oh my god, I can't do this. I can't do this. How's this going to work with a baby but, but You've almost got a switching on and off button? Yeah, for alaria, which is pretty darn good. So So let's imagine baby's born babies here. I don't want you to think that hold the milk is necessarily going to be a disaster. And I know that it's easy for me to say I am a mum of two I did have a toddler and a newborn. I did lots of single parenting because my husband worked away and worked long hours. If you've got if you can go in. You've maybe that's how you say you've got a sling, you're doing some baby wearing newborns in a sling you take the newborn with you. She holds them out for 10 seconds she conks out again, that is not so terrible. Is that a bit cheeky of me to say that come back at me if you think that's really unfair? No. In four weeks time, that's what you had to do. 

Rhea Bailey  37:17

It's really helpful to reframe it because I have been feeling like, Ah, I'm panicked and worried. I'm nervous. The hold the milk, but also nervous about the feeling. Again, I'm nervous about the longevity of doing I feel the need to do two years because I want to be fair to my children. So there's a lot of anxiety coming.

Emma Pickett  37:39

Yeah, no, I can hear that, understandably, just in time, we'll talk about that a bit more in a second. But just in terms of alar, nighttime, if you've got this thing that works, you've got this thing that settles so really quickly, when babies here, it's going to be a different world, she will understand. You know what Dan goes in and says mommy's just feeding baby, mommy will be here in a minute, she's going to get that even at her age, even at two years, three months, she's going to get that, you know, she will understand that the world is a bit different. And obviously, you've got an you know, another month now to talk about when baby comes and to talk about what life is like with baby and her baby will be drinking milk. And I think one thing, maybe you need to prepare yourself, force her to ask to drink milk again. And how that is quite a quite, it's quite a common pattern for a child to ask to start drinking milk. Because you can't say milk isn't there anymore, but she'll see that the baby's having milk. I think it's probably a good idea to think through the language that you might use with her. Because if you say, oh, it's baby's milk. Now, that might be difficult. So what wording could you use to explain first of all, you definitely show you don't want to start feeding her again, because the aversion probably won't be there. In the same way, when you have a newborn. Most people who have experienced a version of pregnancy, do find it does not happen quite in quite the same way once baby's been born. I'm not saying that's what you should do. But have you thought about maybe whether that is something you would be open to doing?

Rhea Bailey  39:01

I think I wouldn't just because of how draining I find it and Ilaria is also always been very reactive to what I eat within the milk. So okay, and it's basically for two years I couldn't eat for the first six months I couldn't eat dairy because I found that responded to her in a funny way. And then I didn't have any sugar like after 5pm Which obviously really good for me, but it sucked. So she was she if I had like three Haribo she'd wake up at like 4am with like the GES. This is so fun. And then I have friends I mean, oh, yeah, no, they don't seem bothered I go have a glass of wine, Do this, do that. So, you know, I definitely don't want to feed her again.

Emma Pickett  39:44

Okay, and you did and you wouldn't want to express milk in a cup and give it to her in a cup if she asked to taste it or asked to have some?

Rhea Bailey  39:50

Actually, I wouldn't mind doing that because I did find with Ilaria I did have a lot of excess sort of just leakage that I was catching and sort of saving for her. So it If she wanted to drink that, I'd be happy to give her it. Especially because now she's getting a bit older, I do feel conscious of like she's getting more picky and fussy with a food. So I feel like actually, if she's, if she was still interested in having milk, I would be happy to give her it in a cup or express because I'd rather have that extra bit of balanced nutrients.

Emma Pickett  40:20

Okay. Okay. So so that is a possibility to say to her that, you know, babies drink milk from amis, and bigger girls have milks and milk in a cup. That's one option. And that won't necessarily feel as much of a rejection, just to say that, do you have a sort of baby doll around and she's sort of seeing you practising holding the baby when you're when you're with her. And sometimes it's quite fun to sort of pretend that there's a baby and you're kind of sitting with the baby while you're reading a book. And you're practising for when the baby is going to be here. And, and you can you know, she can help you put nappies on and she can help you kind of rock the baby and roleplay Yeah, baby doll camp can be really valuable.

Rhea Bailey  40:57

Yeah, we've got I took that advice from you as well, from something you've said in a podcast, and we have been doing a lot of roleplay. And a lot of what it's going to be like, and I do talk about it often. And I do tell her, there's no milk there right now. But when the baby comes, there'll be some more milk and that's what the baby will drink. And she knows babies drink milk. So I've, I've really heavily gone on to the side of milk is for the baby. In terms of the nighttime, though, I'm just a bit. I think I'm like, what if what if the baby's awake? And Hillary's awake? And the baby needs feeding? And I have to like ignore Ilaria she's gonna get distressed I think I'm most nervous about or can I creep out of the room? Will the baby stay asleep? You know, we're going to try the next to me again this time and

Emma Pickett  41:39

And if Darrens in there with the baby. Obviously, he can look after the baby for a little bit. And you know, you know, you hold the Milka superfast. You'll be you'll be back in five minutes if that does have to happen. One option, I guess is to think about moving on to a transitional object. So this hold the milk business. I don't know if you've thought about her getting ever giving her a fake boob? Yeah, letting her hold that

Rhea Bailey  42:03

The midwife suggested that and actually, I'm gonna order one. I don't know how to type in the internet without getting something really weird. 

Emma Pickett  42:10

Well, I'm just thinking, I might have some actually, I might even have a brown boob. Let me have a look and see what I've got. And I'll give you some options. So I've got knitted ones. And I've also got, I've got other ones as well, this and I'll send you some some links,

Rhea Bailey  42:29

We need a really big nipple. That's what we need. Unfortunately, you've got something like that.

Emma Pickett  42:33

Oh, no, no, unfortunately, that boob has done its job. It's been fantastic. Okay, I'll see if I can send you some links. So you don't have to do random internet. So to give it to her as a gift, and to say, you know, we can hold this bow boob too. And you can maybe start with her holding both. And then maybe you can, and you if you've listened to any of my other podcast, you know, humour can be really valuable. So this boot new boobie friend, has got a great voice that has all the best accents, you're an actor, especially you've got some fantastic voice working in your in your history. You know, it talks to her, it makes jokes and laughs it wants to be her friend it can. So it may be that the sensation of touching a fake nipple won't be exactly the same, but, but you can maybe transition towards it a little bit, right, I'm not gonna say something that's going to sound a little bit daft here. But when you've got two kids, you cannot move meet both their needs at exactly the same time. Parents are twins will tell you this, any parent of two kids will tell you, there is always going to be a moment where one child has to wait. And logically, it's going to be the two year old that waits not the newborn. And you've done amazingly well to be able to not have her been distressed to this whole weaning process so well. And you know, the fact you've got that relationship with your sister, which meant she can really nurture her and look after her while you're away. You know, I appreciate you that you did that. Because you're absolutely, you know, at your wits version, and that's what you needed to do. But, you know, she's been so lucky that she's always had adults meeting her needs straightaway. And that's not always going to be possible. And that's okay. And that she is going to learn as she gets older that there are times when she has to wait. And there are times when someone who loves her so much just has to do something else first. And that doesn't mean she's not loved. And that doesn't mean she's gonna come to harm and she's still okay, she just has to hang on. So maybe that concept of waiting is something you can talk about with her. So it's not it's not a no, it's a it's a wait, Mommy's got to do something first. So maybe even something as small as mummy just needs to go and get a drink of water first Mommy needs to go to the loo first. 

Rhea Bailey  44:38

Yeah, we are doing that at the moment. Yeah, good. Yes.

Emma Pickett  44:43

Yeah, so there's that little phrase of something like you just have to wait for a little bit waiting waiting can be really annoying, but you'll be okay back back soon back soon. You know just a phrase that gets a familiar with that concept of waiting and and if she knows Waiting isn't scary if she knows that waiting isn't a complete rejection, she's gonna feel more comfortable with it when it's when you're feeding the newborn when she's got to hang on. While you're, you know, if you're doing something where you really can't help her at the same time, but mums have to are amazing at multitasking, you will turn pages of books, you will be able to roleplay with her while you're feeding a newborn, you will do these things because you are very, very, very capable and very, very switched on to her. And you will develop the strategy to meet her needs. As long as you've got two arms that are both working at the same time. You'll have the ability to do both things at the same time.

Rhea Bailey  45:35

Yes, definitely a lot of baby wearing.

Emma Pickett  45:37

Yeah, baby wearing absolutely the dream. Did you do that last time?

Rhea Bailey  45:41

And it just means well, we've got both hands. Why wouldn't you? So yeah, exactly. Again?

Emma Pickett  45:46

And did you ever master feeding in the sling as well? Yes.

Rhea Bailey  45:51

Okay, I think they're quite movable.

Emma Pickett  45:55

They the girls, yeah,

Rhea Bailey  45:57

the girls, milk is very mobile. 

Emma Pickett  46:01

Good, good. So that that will help you as well. And you'll be able to literally have the baby in a sling feeding. While you're looking after Laura and doing things with her. People also have sort of toy boxes and treasure chests that only come out during feeding time. So some toys r us to set aside for sort of special feeding times, you've obviously got your sisters and your mom. And that you may find that you don't actually need help in the first couple of weeks, it's month two, there's when you're going to need help when everyone assumes that it's the very, very early days. But often there's this sort of honeymoon period and as a newborn, and it's a bit later on this when you actually need the practical help. And someone to come around for a couple of hours on the late afternoon did find that last time. 

Rhea Bailey  46:36

Yeah, I found the first few weeks I had this energy. And now we're just so vibrant. I did this thing. Yeah, I gave birth and I, you know, have created this human. And it was also exciting. And then yeah, it was the weeks later that I was like, I need help I need help. So I can imagine could be similar now that there'll be an extra, an extra child in all that.

Emma Pickett  46:59

Yeah. Tell me a bit more about, you said before that you were feeling this sort of pressure of expectation that you that second time round, you've got to get to two years and tell me a bit more about those feelings.

Rhea Bailey  47:12

I just feel it would be unfair, I really feel I've given her an advantage by being able to feed Ilaria for two years. So I feel like it would be unfair to not give the new baby the same thing. And especially like as I was saying, I see a difference between my sisters. But that could be for a million different things, just how our DNA is all mixed up. And, you know, but I, I feel like if I could give her the same amount of time, then I can give her that same start in life. But I have to I will do responsive feeding again. And if if my new daughter decides after a few months, she doesn't want it. I'm not gonna keep shoving it down my throat. But I am nervous about that. Because I just feel like two years feels like a long chunk of my life. And in the grand scheme of things. It's really not. But I do you feel a bit nervous about how am I going to have to make a lot of sacrifices I felt last time in for breastfeeding. I love my food. I've got a sweet tooth. You know, I don't love a drink. I'm not I'm not much of a drinker. But I was making quite a lot of sacrifices like every mother does. And I think being maybe with my age and my lifestyle, I've always been able to do whatever I wanted go wherever I wanted my partner and I've travelled a lot, we get to do some really cool things with our jobs. And so I'm grateful I've been able to do all of those things. But I definitely felt a real departure from my old life to my new life. And so the idea of starting all that again. And doing those same sacrifices is just a bit daunting, and I'm quite nervous about it. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  48:45

When you say you're nervous, you mean that you're worried you won't get to two years? Is that what you're nervous about? You're just nervous about coping with the overwhelm, just coping

Rhea Bailey  48:55

Yeah, just coping with it. Because I just know so much about the brilliance of it, and how amazing it is and how beneficial that I wouldn't ever want to stop that prematurely. So I'm just nervous about how I cope with it. And I'm nervous about how it's gonna feel. I'm really hoping this time it feels completely different because it can do so I'm really hoping this time I don't have pain. But again, this is expectations, so have to let go of any expectations I've had because I felt like having expectations the first time didn't serve me at all. So really need to let go of expectations of what it's going to be like and just try to be at peace with how it happens. 

Emma Pickett  49:37

Yeah, yeah, no, that's wise words. I guess that that word nervous is a word interesting word, isn't it? Because it sounds negative. But in one way, it's a word that means I know what matters to me. I know what's important to me. Nervous is also a word that says I care about this. And that's not necessarily a negative thing. You know, the people that go into pregnancy and and go into birth and say yeah, you know, If I breastfeed, that's great if I don't, no worries, you know, they're not nervous people, but they're also people that don't necessarily have that determination and, and that drive to get the support and resolve issues and make problems go away with getting extra support. So someone being nervous is also somebody that really cares about something. And you're obviously a very reflective mom and you, you really want to make sure you're meeting everyone's emotional needs. And that is intense, that isn't something to be dismissed and not taken seriously. It is it is a serious thing. But it sounds like you know, where to get support, it's not going to be the same second time around, you'll know where to get help, you'll know who to talk to you. And you'll know what you need to ask of people. And you know, other people will know how to support you as well. I'm hoping if you are in pain, in the first few days, you will ask a few more people. I'm not saying that you missed out on some excellent piece of support last time, but it might be that the one person who says the latches, okay, let's just double double check the second person just just in case because they someone else might have a fresh way of looking at things and a different suggestion. Yeah.

Rhea Bailey  51:07

Or she might have even had a tongue tie that nobody ever picked up on or something. 

Emma Pickett  51:11

Yeah, yeah. Who knows, it's worth just just doing a double double extra investigation if that if that is the case. Because if you're in pain, and you're looking after a two year old, that's, that's a pretty intense experience. And then in terms of the eight month old, sort of nursing strike, self weaning experience, I also think when you get if you did get to that point, which I think is pretty unlikely. You'd also know to get some support at that stage as well. I think it's, you know, we, we could do a whole nother episode on what is self weaning and when to self weaning happen, but certainly eight months is, it's pretty unusual. There's often other factors going on there that other people can perhaps help you think through and not support you through. You said a while ago, it's just just about one feed at a time. You just did one one feed at a time. And that is going to be true for this new experience as well. Yeah, one day at a time, one feed at a time if you end the day, and everyone's fed and healthy and has had some sleep. That's a successful day. Absolutely. What's the situation with Ilaria? And her childcare? Does she go to nursery at all? Does she have any experience of being in outside settings, what's your sort of plan for the next couple of years?

Rhea Bailey  52:20

we moved house in October, and I really wanted to try and get her settled in nursery before the baby came. But with the weaning took longer than I wanted it to. And then moving house, I think also trying to integrate her into a nursery was just a bit too much for her. And she's really clinging now. I think since since I have stopped feeding and become pregnant, she's very aware of all the changes. So because of that, nobody else can really do anything for her except me. So it's quite a challenging phase we're in because there's has to be a lot of negotiating just to get her to let daddy do anything. They have so much fun. They go out on wonderful days out and everything. But it's always a bit of a battle to get some space for myself or if I need to do something. So we will are going to try and get her back into nursery. I really want her to have that social interaction. She's very intelligent, she's she likes having fun and being out and playing outside and things. So I think it will suit her. So we are going to try and do that. But I don't think I don't think I'm gonna do it for a while now because I don't want to have another baby and and push her out the door? Because I think she has struggled with that as well, obviously.

Emma Pickett  53:35

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I know that your partner is also creative and does different projects out and about is he going to be able to be with you at home with new baby, what's the situation was sort of paternity leave and support there. 

Rhea Bailey  53:47

At the beginning he'll he'll take some short amount of paternity leave that he can because he's self employed, you know, he's in a band. And if he doesn't do the gigs, then they don't get paid. And there's obviously there's four of them. You know, he can't just decide they're not doing a gig because everybody else has to make money too. So the boys will give him some grace, as they each have done with each of their children. And then there'll be back on the road again, the Christmas period was really tough because he was on tour for six weeks. And so I was doing a lot of solo parenting whilst being pregnant and trying to get her in, integrated in nursery myself, whereas now actually, he'll be around when we try again. So I'm hoping him taking her to nursery will help. But yeah, he'll be around and hopefully, just having him here, we'll just you know, we'll have an easier transition. When baby comes to how Hillary is going to her coping mechanisms and the fact that she has got both parents here. I'm really hoping that will help me more settled.

Emma Pickett  54:49

Yeah, that's good. I'm glad that he's able to be around us give you some support. But I would also say you know if she has an unsettled day or an unsettled hour or an unsettled two hours, she's still gonna be okay. You will not have days where you'll be able to meet everybody's needs. And I can see what a giving mom you are, and you matter on this list as well. And there will be days where you're going to have to say alaria My love, I can't do that while I'm doing this. So it's okay to be cross and sad about that. Yeah, it's okay to be quite across about the fact that you're gonna have to wait for 1015 minutes. But, you know, you'll say it's like better than this. But this is the truth. I have to do this first. So, you know, let's come with me. Let's do it together. And then we'll do the thing you want to do.

Rhea Bailey  55:32

Yeah, is it the moment being even with being pregnant, I'm saying to her, in our in, my body is tired, my body is tired. I can't, you know, Daddy's right here, Daddy will lift you down the stairs, you know, you can walk. But Daddy will if you're downstairs because mommy's tired, my body is too tired. And dad is stronger than when we right now, you know, I'm using language like that to try to defer to Darren for those primary things. That you know, she really, she really shouldn't need me to carry downstairs you know, and but it's so tough being this heavy and exhausted physically to also carry her downstairs as well as, as well as the baby. So I am using language like that, just letting her know it's you know, you didn't need to wait them or daddy will do it. And that is right here. And even just negotiating bath time at the moment is difficult. She wants me to bath her and I'm like, Oh, I just sit on the couch. 20 minutes on my own, you know, like Daddy bath you so just a lot of negotiating. And, and like you said, I've been really honest with her more honest than I thought I would be I think my mom did a lot of everything's wonderful. Everything's positive. You guys are wonderful. Everything's great. With us when we were little, I really appreciated my mom's positive disposition. And she taught us we could do anything be anyone go anywhere. And then I felt as I get older, I was like, I felt I'd seen a different side to my mom, because she was showing all the feelings of not just always being happy and cheerful and positive. And I was like, Hey, why is my mum, you know, as my mum down or has my mum moaning about the state of the world, like this is not like my mom. But I just I just realised that she was doing that thing that moms do, where they just pretend everything's wonderful. And everything's great. And I find myself doing it if I'm not in the happiest headspace, but I'll be cheery and turn it on when Hillary asks me a question. Because I think, oh, that's gonna really help her. That's what I need to do. But because I've been so exhausted, and I've found I'm finding parenting more challenging than I thought I would. And finding myself being really honest, and I am a really honest person anyway. So I'm being really like, Hey, this is how I feel right now. And sometimes I'm concerned, maybe she doesn't need to know mommy's feelings or maybe, but I'm finding it's helping in terms of explaining to her what's going on. 

Emma Pickett  57:56

It's a gift, you're giving her a gift. You really are that honesty. I mean, you know, there's a difference between you know, let's, let's look at the videos of what's happening in Palestine. versus, you know, mommy's really tired obviously, there are age appropriate honesty's and not age appropriate honesty's. But what you've everything you've said, Today sounds like a gift that you really have, you're giving her insight. So nothing is going to be a horrible shock if and if there are moments when, you know, she's sad, just like you can be tired and sad. She can be tired and sad sometimes. And you don't have to fix that. You just have to let her have those feelings. Just as you have those feelings. 

Rhea Bailey  58:30

Yeah, I'm noticing she's married mirroring the language back to me as well, because she'll cry. And I'll say, It's okay to be upset. You know, I understand that you're frustrated. And then five minutes later, she'll say, not sad anymore. And they'll say, Oh, that's great. I'm so glad to feel sad anymore. Or she'll say, I'm really tired. And I'm like, Well, then let's just try and close our eyes. And let's just try and be calm and keep still and go to sleep. So she's no other phase yet where you said you're tired. Don't say I'm tired. She's not there yet. Thank God, but she is saying like, I'm tired now. And I'm like, thank God because half past one in the morning.

Emma Pickett  59:09

I guess I won't hold the milk is not we're not working a moment to hold the milk failure there. Yeah, no, that's but that but that honesty, that authenticity is going to be super important. So when baby comes as she's having a rough day, she can say I'm having a rough day, and not literally, but you know, she can express those feelings. And you will be able to pick up on that you'll be able to support her. But you may not always have the magic magic button. I guess that's all I'm trying to say. And you can put it I'm not being subtle about it. I'm just worried that you feel like your job is to always make her happy and to always meet her need in every moment. And that of course, that's the dream. But there's also some sort of authentic gift that comes from saying to her, I'm not infallible, I'm going to run out of energy. I'm going to run out of steam. I've only got one set pair of hands. You know, there are times when I'm going to let you down and that I'm sorry that you feel sad that I can't do play this game right now in this minute because the baby's got to be changed. Yeah, you know, you will. I think if you carry on with being that honest and authentic as you are, you'll get to that place. But yeah, as I said, prepare for maybe to ask to have milk. That's the thing I would say. Think it through, talk about down what you're going to say if she does ask and be be ready for that. And I'm going to try and find you some boobs by

Rhea Bailey  1:00:21

missing boobs, so I have to google them, please.

Emma Pickett  1:00:24

No, I will. That's gonna be my job I'm gonna send to you. I'm gonna send you some links. Okay, thank you so much for your time. Ria. I'm wishing you all the best with your birth. Are you going to have a home birth again? With number two? 

Rhea Bailey  1:00:36

Yes. That's the plan. Yeah. 

Emma Pickett  1:00:38

Oh, brilliant. And what's the Ilaria going to be doing?

Rhea Bailey  1:00:40

Well, that's also you know, up in the eye, she's gonna be here. We've been watching like birthing home birthing videos and stuff. She's really so she's aware of the process now and she's excited for it. She wants to watch it again. Okay, so she's gonna be here. But depending on the time of day, my mom will take her out and distract her. As my mom is going to be around for the birth, making sure she's available. And if it's in the night, hopefully she'll just be asleep. But you might wake up and asked to hold the milk while I'm mid search. So that will cross that bridge. When we come to probably

Emma Pickett  1:01:17

since you're busy. I'm guessing. There'll be so much other interesting stuff going on. I'm sure she'll be like, Look at this instead. 

Rhea Bailey  1:01:25

Yeah, the thing is, you might want to get in the water with me which

Emma Pickett  1:01:30

people do that. That does happen sometimes. 

Rhea Bailey  1:01:33

Yeah, I found the Hypno birthing really helpful, though to to be zoned out. So I'm like, Okay, I don't want to be distracted. So yeah, we're gonna play it by ear. We'll see how we get on. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  1:01:42

And well, that's a good motto for life. play it by ear. See how you get on. Carry on being honest and authentic. And you will get there. I know you will. I look forward to hearing how that goes. 

Rhea Bailey  1:01:51

Thanks so much, Emma. 

Emma Pickett  1:01:53

Great pleasure. Thanks for talking to me today. really grateful. 

Emma Pickett  1:02:00

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.