Mubareka's story

Sometimes you meet someone who you instantly connect with, and it feels like you will never run out of things to talk about! That’s how I felt when I met life coach, Mubareka Virjee. 

In this episode, Mubareka brings her creative, intuitive, positive attitude to life to our discussion about her breastfeeding journey. We touch on pressure from family members, divorce and single motherhood, lockdown parenting, weaning, Islamic attitudes to breastfeeding and the concept of milk kinship, in our wide-ranging chat.

You can find Mubareka on Instagram @mubareka__

and on TikTok @mubareka__ 

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.  . 

Emma Pickett  00:48

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode, I'm really excited to be joined by Mubareka. And I would just say this is kind of like podcast after dark kind of evening recording session. I don't normally record in the evening. So I'm sitting here in my onesie, Mubareka has got her jimjams on, we're all very chilled and relaxed. So if we sound a bit more kind of Zen than normal, maybe that's part of it. So this is gonna sound really cheesy. And Mubareka, you have to forgive me for this. But it's so rare that I meet somebody that I had an instant connection with in the way that I felt when I met you. So we met a few months ago now, not very far away in my area of North London. And we talked nonstop for like 50 minutes, we're on our first meeting, it was amazing. And, and you are somebody who I find so inspiring. And so you're so positive. And I'm not saying you have to be positive all the time. But I'm just really excited that people get to hear you in this podcast episode. And we'll get to hear a bit more about your experience of being a mother and experience of being a breastfeeding mom. So you're a life coach. You are a mum to Cameron, who's four. And you live not very far away from me in southeast of England. How would you describe your work as a life coach? What does a life coach do? You say creative life coach? What do you mean when you say creative life coach?

Mubareka Virjee  02:04

First of all, thank you so much for that awesome introduction. I genuinely loved instantly connecting with you to really honoured to be here today. So being a creative life coach to me is about helping women figure out where they're at, and figuring out where they want to be. And the creative aspect for me is that I have been on a journey myself in discovering my creativity in various different ways, and how tapping into your own mind and your own soul can really help you kind of refine what that looks like for you in your life and your creative journey. Whether it be something to do with, you know, writing, cooking, creating, doing something outside of your comfort zone. It is it is about being creative. It's finding ways that work for you, and experimenting, and I believe that's what creativity is about. So hence the creative aspect of coaching. But yeah, being a life coach is to me about just supporting holding hands and offering accountability and good listenership to kind of help guide you on the journey, wherever you wanting to go.

Emma Pickett  03:22

Cool. Okay, sounds good. You're talking a language that I don't fully understand. But that may be that means I need some creative life coaching. But okay, so let's talk first of all, it doesn't everybody. And so first of all, let's talk about your abs daily journey as a mother and your journey as a breastfeeding mother, because that's obviously what our podcast is about. So, before you had your son, what were your feelings around breastfeeding? And what did breastfeeding mean to you?

Mubareka Virjee  03:51

I was actually really blessed to have a good understanding to some degree about my family, because my mother breastfed all her three children. My sister in law breastfed all her three children. And I was there to kind of witness that to some degree. So it was kind of a norm for my family to kind of take on breastfeeding as like the natural way of going forward, if that's something that was possible for you. So it was kind of just one of those things that you know, you have a baby and you breastfeed your baby. And it was only through my pregnancy journey that I kind of learned that there's all these other alternative ways that people feed their children and, you know, some of the struggles that some women have with breastfeeding and also, you know, like even formula feeding and breastfeeding together and I was just then wondering how that going to look like for me when I was pregnant. But once I actually became a mum, and you know, I started breastfeeding my baby. I understood on so many law have rules that this is not just about nourishing and nurturing your child, it's actually about creating a bond. And not just creating a one. But also, it's an it's a memory that you create as a mother. If it's something that you can do, it's going to be something that you're going to remember for the rest of your life. And the I just found that journey for myself quite sacred and special. And I was blessed enough to find it. Pretty straightforward on some levels. But I'll explain on other ways that it wasn't in just a few moments, but yeah, overall, it was something that was thankfully, something that was quite normal for my family. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  05:39

So you almost you almost had the sort of opposite experience that a lot of other people have. So you started from the default position of thinking that breastfeeding was the norm, and it was going to work out from you for you. And it was only during pregnancy, you realised it may not necessarily be that straightforward. So usually in the UK, we've got the opposite. We've got all the negative stuff and all the baggage from other people's stories and people not meeting their breastfeeding goals. So it's actually really positive to hear that you had all those role models where breastfeeding had been successful and had worked out well. And tell me a little bit about your birth experience. And that that very, very early breastfeeding in that first day or so how did that go for you.

Mubareka Virjee  06:14

So this kind of relates to what I was just about to say, but I actually did a hypno birthing course, while I was pregnant, which was really educational, to help me kind of understand the process of birthing naturally and also breastfeeding and postpartum. And once I had my baby, which kind of turned out birth was a little bit different from what I was hoping and expecting, as a lot of women experience. My breastfeeding initial feelings around it was yeah, I, I had already studied what I needed to do. And it felt very natural to me. So I was able to breastfeed pretty quickly. And it was very beautiful, actually very sacred. Very awesome. And I really appreciate it. It's lovely having the pre existed mindset to kind of hold me in that. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  07:13

I mean, Hypno birthing is also that positive thinking, isn't it? Hypno birthing is about believing your body works. It's about expecting your body to do what it needs to do and have faith in your body, which is also connects very much to what you're saying about your beliefs around breastfeeding. So I can see how those kind of philosophies come together. That word sacred is is special. That is a word I don't hear very often when people are talking about their breastfeeding experience. I'm sorry that your birth wasn't what you hoped for. Are you comfortable? Give me a bit more info on that. Let me know if that's a difficult conversation. And you don't want to go any more into that.

Mubareka Virjee  07:45

No, no, I'm happy to speak about it. I just laugh now, because you know, I had done the Hypno birthing, I had my whole birthing plan laid out, I was very, very, like, aware of where my boundaries were, what I was accepting of. And the last thing I ever wanted to do is to not have a natural birth. However, because of the fact that my water broke at five in the morning, one day, it led me within a couple of days to having to be induced. And therefore I kind of had to, you know, be ready for the things that were to come. And I was actually induced for, I'd say, definitely almost up to 30 hours. And in the end, I had to have a C section. Oh, by the way, in between, I had an epidural as well. We were again, ticked all the boxes. 

Emma Pickett  08:34

Yeah. Okay, that's interesting

Mubareka Virjee  08:36

I did everything that I didn't want to do, but it was honestly, probably considering the height of craziness of my birth, I actually was able to stay really calm, I was able to actually enjoy some parts of it, especially because I had a lot of the tools and breathing techniques under my belt through my Hypno birthing journey. And again, I think that positive mindset and understanding my body and also just understanding that every choice that I made was mine, you know, doing the epidural was something that I had to really think about, but in the end, it was something I chose to do. And in the end it gave me the strength to to have my birth in the end how it turned out. So everything happens for a reason. And I was just grateful that in the end after all of it, I was able to breastfeed my baby so it was kind of like the cherry on top.

Emma Pickett  09:30

Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. And did you have the kind of C section that we kind of hear about these days where you know, Cameron was on your on your chest early on, and you're able to have that skin to skin time? What was what was that very early feed like?

Mubareka Virjee  09:44

Because I was on a lot of drugs. It was very difficult, I think for them to give the baby to me very instantly. So when the baby was born, I could only just hear his cries and that's when I just started crying my eyes out like, My child was wasted. And I was like, so emotional. But then after a few minutes, I was able to see my baby wrapped up in a towel looking cute. And I was like really excited to be able to spend some moments with him once, things kind of calm down. But yeah, in the end, it was not very long till I was able to learn through the, you know, the help of the midwife and everything on how to actually hold the baby, breastfeed the baby, and kind of just get that confidence. 

Emma Pickett  10:35

Did you have spent a long time in hospital? Are you able to get home quite quickly? What was Do you remember? What happened in that first week? But it's probably a bit of a blur now. But were you able to, to get home fairly quickly?

Mubareka Virjee  10:45

Well, I think by I think it was a couple of days, I think by day two, or maybe it was even day three, I was like, get me out of here. Like I just want to be home. Yeah. But I knew I had to just wait until you know the time was right. But in the first few I know, in the first night, I was really blessed. My baby actually slept for eight hours after that whole scenario of like, because it was 1037 at night when I had my baby. So, you know, I think he was tired from all the drama.

Emma Pickett  11:18

A lot of people think that that that's unusual. But we often find that after the birth, you get that. Ideally, you have that first feed within that first hour. And then after that it's really common for everyone to sleep. I don't think everyone necessarily realises that. So we don't expect a baby to frequently feed from the second there are alive and second there in the world. It's really common to get that block of sleep. And nature's not daft nature probably organises that. So everyone can recover a little bit. And then it's only after that first block of sleep, which could be you know, six hours, seven hours, eight hours, then we want to make sure babies are feeding frequently. But that lovely first block of sleep. Let's celebrate that. I'm glad you had that experience. And yeah, nature's seems to organise that for some people not expecting that. 

Mubareka Virjee  11:58

So for me, I was like, this is the best gift ever. Thank you good. But I can't see it the same for night to

Emma Pickett  12:05

second night syndrome. Have you heard about? Have you heard about second night syndrome? That's a that's an official thing. Yeah. Really? talks about it in her book. It's a it's a thing for sure. It's powerful stuff. Second night syndrome. Yeah, you were in. So you were in still in hospital at that point. And you had that difficult night in hospital?

Mubareka Virjee  12:27

Yeah, I was still in hospital. And I remember because there was also other babies, they all screaming and crying at the same time. And then your baby screaming crying, I think is it because everybody else is screaming and crying. And the baby was just waking up every like, half back. I don't know if it was every hour or every two hours. But I was just like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. But I think it was it was. I think it's there to also show you like the contrast. It's like, Yeah, I'll give you one night to let it go. Then the next time I'm gonna give you everything you get everything you've got for me, you know. But I think that's what prepares you for what's to come because it's so unpredictable, once you will be born and what to expect your nights to look like that's going to be the sacrifice that you make as a mother. In the end. It goes by so quickly.

Emma Pickett  13:18

Did you have goals in mind for how long you wanted to breastfeed for? Did you have a sort of an idea in mind? I know we've we've talked already between us about how in Islam, there's you have the sort of goal of feeding for two years, if you can, is that something that was in your mind? Did you have a time goal?

Mubareka Virjee  13:34

I think so my mom fed me for two years. And I remember that, I think that was like the longest out of all the other children. And I kind of held hiding that I was like, you know, that's why me and mom was so close. I used to always say that when I was younger, and I guess for me as well, I really wanted to have that same relationship with my child and feed as long as I could. And to be honest, I if it wasn't for, you know, the regulation around it in the from an Islamic point of view I Who knows if I would have fed for longer, because I did enjoy the experience so much. But I think when for me, I think it was just over two years, maybe a couple of months over. And I think I was kind of ready to kind of have that, that weaning off the best moment because mums need their space to after a certain time, you may be ready to move on to having different forms of connection and nurturing and you know, feeding obviously with food and things like that. So I felt like that that was for me. But yes, the Quran does mention two years and there are different reasons for that. I mean, it's obviously different scholars will say different, you know, make different interpretations of that but the recommendation is based around the needs of the child which would be two years. And obviously, if it's a little bit more, I don't think it's an absolute hard and fast rule. But some of the reasonings would be, you know, encouraging other foods, eating with their own hands. Some also say that it's to do with the privacy, as the children may start to have memories from that point going forward. So kind of, to protect the child's memories of breastfeeding. That's

Emma Pickett  15:25

interesting, too. Yeah. A lot of people misunderstand Islam, and you let me know if I'm not wording it properly. But my understanding is that there's obviously the this very precious, precious sacred text, and the interpretation of that can be done in different ways. So I've had different conversations with different Muslim mums about breastfeeding, and some have said that two years is a cut off, and they've even had pressure to stop it two years. Others have said that it was a minimum of two years that was being talked about. And people can seem to go in different directions, depending on their interpretation and in the support of their local Imam and scholars. So it doesn't sound like there's one definitive answer necessarily, Is that Is that a fair description?

Mubareka Virjee  16:08

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, I think, because the Quranic text is, so it's so eloquently worded, that nobody really knows what it means. You kind of have to take it for us. I think with Islam in general, it's not what we perceive Islam, I believe is not just constant, hard and fast rules. I think it is supposed to be open for interpretation, we are supposed to ask questions, we are supposed to think logically, ourselves with what works for the situation, sometimes the baby may have needs that require breastfeeding beyond those two years for a period of time. Sometimes a mother can't feed up to two years. So that you know, it really, I think is case by case kind of basis. And I think the idea behind it from my understanding is it's a recommendation. It's like, you know, you can you feed the child for two years. I you know, you don't feed the child for 10 years or five years, according to what I can, you know, I perceive it, is

Emma Pickett  17:14

it correct? It says something in there about how it's the duty of the husband to support the mother to breastfeed? Did I remember that correctly? Yeah.

Mubareka Virjee  17:22

So I was literally just talking to my sister in law about this the other day, from the Quranic it's, it's quite clear that women can, you know, accept payment for feeding their child, it's like, the partner should be compensating her financially. Oh, crikey.

Emma Pickett  17:39

Okay, that's something we haven't tapped into. Yeah.

Mubareka Virjee  17:43

I mean, it makes a lot of sense, because the needs of the mother after she gives birth are so much more, you know, she requires so much more from, you know, her nutrition, she requires more, you know, even even just things like losing sleep, and all of these things, it's like her needs will change. And during that period, it's a lot of work to feed a child. And therefore, it's, it's been said that, you know, women should, their welfare should be taken care of, if even if the needs are more by the husband. And I think there's a lot of power in that statement, because it really just goes to show how important the journey of a woman is, and how the role of a man in her life is to provide for her, you know, and obviously, that can be taken in lots of different ways. But I just think that there's a lot of beauty in that. Yeah, I

Emma Pickett  18:34

mean, it's certainly acknowledging, isn't it the contribution that the mother is making, and it's, and it's certainly suggesting that that needs to be recognised and valued. And even though we're not necessarily expecting someone to literally write a check in 2024, there's a message there isn't there about how this woman deserves recognition and praise and support how of whatever form that support takes, which is I think that that's really special. So obviously, day to day, you mentioned that you had had some challenges with your early breastfeeding before we talk a bit more about your ending of your breastfeeding and your weaning experience. Tell me more about some of the challenges that you had in your early breastfeeding experience.

Mubareka Virjee  19:11

I was really lucky to have my mom with me through the first six weeks, I made the plan to have the first six weeks of my child being born. With My Mom, I wanted my mom's support, I wanted her to be able to give me what I needed in this first six weeks recovering from my C section and also breastfeeding this child and in some of the ways that she helped me with by making really nutritious foods. And these are things that we've been kind of making through generations of our culture, to allow for more breast milk, allow for more energy, allow for more repair, post birth. And I can give you some of those examples in a

Emma Pickett  19:56

moment. Was your mum born in the UK where was what's her back? Round. So

Mubareka Virjee  20:00

my ancestors come from India, but my mom herself was born in Uganda. So my family and basically East African, but with Indian sort of heritage, okay. And a lot of the recipes and things that were kind of handed down through the generations were all kind of from Indian backgrounds like using certain ingredients like millet flour, and having things in different forms, like different routines and different types of bread that we've made with with millet flour to give energy jaggery almonds, pistachios, like different kinds of balls that we'd make, like, kind of like, you know how to get out bars, but you make them with these different types of ingredients to you know, build the energy, chicken, spinach, and a Greek you know, to help the blood replacement, and lots and lots of milk. So these were certain things that I was given during that first six weeks. And one of the downsides to that was yeah, I couldn't have some of the foods that I was craving, which were, you know, all sorts of things that you crave. Once you've had the baby, like, Ah, now I can finally have this, it's like, Nope, no, you're not, you're gonna have what I'm giving you right now, that was obviously a small, but one of the first challenges. There was a time I think in the first, within the first six weeks that I remember, there was a couple of days where the lat Ching was a little bit complicated, like it's, there was a little bit difficult. And also, there were times where it really started to hurt. And I did find using things like nipple bombs were really, really helpful during that time. But I can tell you, it was some of the level of pain that I felt was quite intense. And it made me just feel for all the women who experienced that more regularly, because I was really lucky to not have these sensations from the get go. Yeah, and I don't know whether I was doing something wrong. Or maybe it was just my, I can't really remember what exactly was was happening at the time. But I do remember feeling a lot of pain for a couple of days. And then it subsided with, you know, just using the nipple bombed and kind of taken care of my own breasts at the time, a little bit more. But one of the other challenges that I would say was a huge one for me was after those six weeks, and I moved back in with my in laws, there was a lot of pressure to formula feed.

Emma Pickett  22:27

Okay, so your husband's family didn't have that breastfeeding tradition that that your your original family had had? Is that fair to say?

Mubareka Virjee  22:33

I think there was a little bit of both, but there was this weird pressure to formula feed. And what I didn't like about that was the pressure was the idea of like, okay, you know, there's ways to kind of talk about these things. And I just, I recognised it as a very old mindset on, you know, wanting, I think it was them wanting to be able to take over that role of feeding the child. And that I found a little bit like, okay, dude, this is like, you know, a mother is has the right to feed her child if she so chooses to do so. And I mean, I'm just saying this out loud, because you never know if there's another woman out there going through the same kind of experience where there's pressure from outside to do things that aren't the way that you want to do them yourself. But one of the things that really, like, came home for me was I knew that I was going to trust myself, I was going to trust my body, and I was going to trust my choices. And that's something that I wasn't always, I didn't always have that mindset, it was something that I learned through Hypno birthing, I learned through my own journey of coaching. And it just reminded me that you know what, at the end of the day, people can say whatever they want to say, they can tell you that this is better, that this is better, that that is better. But at the end of the day, only, you know your own body, only you know, your own experience, and you know, you know your own child. And you know, if you so wish to seek help with you so wish to ask for advice, please go do that. But don't let anybody else outside of you tell you what to do, or how to do it. You haven't asked for that advice. I'm

Emma Pickett  24:13

really sorry. You had that? That's that's, that's really tough. And you know, I couldn't imagine you coming from leaving your mom and what that must have felt like to leave your mom in that moment when you've been so cared for and then going back into a home where there are people who cared about you, but you know, they having different priorities and having to deal with that pressure must have been intense. So you were living with your in laws that was your, your husband's family at the time. And did you manage to communicate to them that you weren't happy about this pressure? How did you handle those conversations? Did you have to give formula when you didn't want to or are you able to resist that?

Mubareka Virjee  24:48

I was fully rejecting of the idea. I was like, Well, my breastfeed doing milk is perfectly fine. I'm not missing a feed. I don't see why I need to, like add or remove anything if it's if it's what Looking like, there's no reason for it? So I just I mean, to be honest, for me, it was like, Look, this is the relationship. And this is a conversation between my husband and I. And at the time, I just relayed it to him that no, there's, there's no chance I'm going to do it, it was more like, Oh, let me just make a suggestion to you, this is what we think you should do. And then just be like, No. And to me, no, no, is the sentence if it doesn't make sense to you, then it doesn't make sense to you. So that was where I was at. But I did feel like, when you are a new mom, you're so sometimes lost in the whole sea of all the new changes that happening in your body, and with your child, and all these new feelings, your hormones, so many things going on. And I think a lot of people in my kind of Asian community can tend to experience a lot of pressures and even within like in law, in law homes, or even from their own parents to do things the way that they did them. Or, like feed children, the food that they think that you should feed the children. And I just think that, you know, we as a generation, you know, really need to learn how to hold, like good boundaries and communicate those clearly. And that's something I didn't have a very good skill of within family situation. Because, you know, we weren't taught this stuff when we were younger, this is something I had to really learn how to do, and learn how to say no, when no, meant no. And I definitely believe that that was a big challenge for me, because, you know, with all the feelings that you're experiencing during that journey, you know, how many people Yeah, just just noise. And you're just trying to raise this small little newborn child? If anything, you need peace, not noise? Yeah, during that time. So

Emma Pickett  26:44

noise is a good word to describe it. Yeah, that's that's definitely that sense of having me, you said that you didn't think you were very good at it. But I already I can see, in those few weeks that you were in that strong place of being able to stand up for what you believed in and really know what mattered to you, you'd already got to that place, which is, which is really amazing. So well done. Well done. Rebecca from four years ago, we're getting to that point and being brain, you know, you're recovering from major surgery. I mean, he was still having the strength to go, No, this is what I want. This is where I'm sticking? Did you live with your in laws for an extended period of time? Was that your permanent home? What was the situation with with where the weather, you might get your home with just you and your husband and your child? Is that something that was going to happen? Or would you expect to stay living with your in laws? Well,

Mubareka Virjee  27:29

I wanted to have my own space with my husband. And that was sort of the plan after being married for two years. At that time, my son was about seven months old. So that was what we were going to do. But, you know, life had a different plan. And it ended up being the case that my husband and I weren't really going to make it work, as you know, in our marriage. And that led me to moving back in with my mom with my child and continuing my breastfeeding journey after my kid was about seven months old. Okay. And that was sort of the beginning of my single motherhood journey, which has led me to Well, years later. Now,

Emma Pickett  28:12

I don't want to ask you, I don't want to ask you too much about that. Because obviously, that's your privacy, and that's your husband's, your ex husbands privacy as well. But do you mind me asking just a little bit about that? And that's an incredibly difficult time in your life for your marriage to break down? Was it partly about the dynamic of living with your in laws? Do you think and having pressure around the kind of mother you want it to be? And then perhaps him not giving you that support? Is there anything you're able to say that feels comfortable? If that doesn't, we can take this question out? If that doesn't feel comfortable at all? What were some of the factors connected to your early parenting style and the differences in opinion around parenting?

Mubareka Virjee  28:49

I think that was like one of the later triggers that kind of made me realise, like, I don't think this into personal family, dynamic living together thing is working. And I knew that from the start, but it really like, pushed me to my limit once I had my baby, because I think once you become a mom, your priorities change, and you're now protecting another human being. And in that space, you are more able to kind of stand up, you know, for yourself in ways that you probably couldn't have before you had a child. This was the story for me. And you mentioned how I was able to say no, and things like that before, but I'll be honest with you, you know, when they say that, you should speak even if your voice shakes. That's basically where I was. It was like, I didn't know. I wasn't confident in saying these words. But it was the stuff I had to say, to protect my myself and my child. It didn't feel safe for me anymore. It didn't feel safe. For me being in a place where I couldn't really thrive as a mom and that was something as you can tell by my journey, me going to Hypno birth I think me learning about all this stuff, me doing all this coaching was me trying to learn how to thrive as a human and thrive as a mother. And when you're on a journey of learning how to thrive, you can't live in survival mode forever. And when things are pushing your boundaries too far, there comes a time where you, you know, you can't take it anymore. And that's basically where I was, it was very hard. I think it you know, sometimes things happen, and you can't, you can't understand why they happen, but they have to happen. So, you know, I can look back and go, you know, maybe I shouldn't have done this, done that, but you can't change the past. And if I hadn't have done some of those things, I wouldn't have had my child. So I'm so grateful for the journey, because it's almost like it had to push me to my limit for me to actually grow. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  30:54

you sound like you're somebody who's really good at listening to their gut. And you know, you know, what feels right for you, and you and you. And you've, the journey you've gone on has led you to really trust your own instincts. And I know you wouldn't describe yourself like this. But that is a brave decision to leave, when you have a seven month old baby that is brave, that is something that takes guts. So, you know, I can imagine that wouldn't have been easy. And I'm guessing you know, that not culturally, necessarily. It's easy for your wider family to see you make that decision. And was your mom thrilled to have you back? Was that a happy day? Or was she worried about you and wanting to save your marriage?

Mubareka Virjee  31:33

I think for the time that I was married, my family knew that I wasn't happy. And, you know, I made it very clear to them the struggles that I was having. But I think for them, it was difficult for them to really be able to understand because in their generation, bearing in mind, my parents are now like, you know, well into their 70s. So I'm quite young, in comparison to my siblings and stuff. But they come from a generation where people just stuck it out, you know, when people were unhappy in their marriage, or, you know, they had difficult in laws, it's like, well, there you go. That's, that's what enlasa Like, that's what life is like. And they were just a lot more accepting. Whereas, you know, our generation understand that we come from a different world, and we have so much information at our feet, that we, it's easier for us to start understanding a little bit more behind the psychology of people this, like, what the reasons why we feel the way we feel, you know, we're starting to learn a bit more about how our emotions, like why our emotions are the way that they are, and why we experience certain things, and having all that information helps us, you know, kind of unravel certain things that our parents wouldn't have been able to do. So my parents in a way they were, they weren't happy, they were obviously disappointed that not in me, but they were disappointed that it didn't work out for me because I had a kid. And usually once you have a child, it's it's definitely a lot harder to separate or divorce, in some respects, because now you've got a whole nother human being who's going to be part of that. But it wasn't a decision I just made just like that. It was something that had that had to happen. And, you know, over and over again, I went through my mind, is this the right thing? You know, did I make the right decision? I've doubted myself 1000 times, yes, I strongly believe in my gut. But I also have been an over thinker for most of my life. So, you know, we're always doubting, like, Did I do the right thing? Am I Am I doing the best thing for my child. But one thing that came really strongly for me when I was at the end of of my, my marriage, quote, unquote, was me thinking that my child deserves to have a happy mom. My child deserves to be able to see me at my best. And I'm not in that state right now. And being in this situation has only made it worse for me. And I just felt that my kid deserved better and then and I deserved better too. So yeah, that's that's what where I was, and thankfully, you know, it's been a few years, but we've, you know, my son and I have built such an amazing bond through, you know, the life that we've created and I've had so much support from my family, they will never want what even though my parents like I said was sad to see my marriage breakdown they would never on supporting they they've supported me more than I could have imagined.

Emma Pickett  34:42

Yeah, that's, that's yeah, that's good to hear you say you say you're an over thinker. Sounds to me like you think the exact right amount rather than being an overthinker

Emma Pickett  34:51

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  35:36

So how old was Cameron when we started to have lockdowns and the pandemic hits?

Mubareka Virjee  35:41

So literally, he was born on the fifth of January 2020. Lockdown happened in March 2020. So I just moved back with my in laws shortly after my first six weeks. And then a few weeks later, it was locked down. And at this point in, in the in the game, I was living with two vulnerable people, my ex husband or my husband at the time, who was a heart patient, and my mother in law who was a lot older, and had lots of different medical conditions. So there was a lot of fear around going out the house potentially getting an airborne virus. 

Emma Pickett  36:25

So you couldn't see your mom was different that time then were you not able to see your mom after you left after those six weeks, you're not able to see her then and that whole time where you are struggling back with your in laws.

Mubareka Virjee  36:35

Yeah, that was really, really tough. I did at times, I'm just trying to remember how it worked. But yeah, I think we just communicated obviously via phone and FaceTime and all the things but yeah, it was it was definitely it was probably the heart one of the hardest times of my life, if I'm honest with you. Because you know, when you have a kid, as a mom, you need to get out the house, you need to go for walks, you need to do things, you need to just experience the fresh air and have all these moments. But these were things that I was also a little bit afraid to do. Because you know, there was so much fear mongering and scare around what that could look like. And when you've got such a young child, you don't really want to expose your child to this airborne virus that every anyone and everyone is getting and people are dying from and it was really scary time. So yeah, it kind of left me house bound. And yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't a pleasant experience. But the best part of it was being able to just take care of my baby, you know, he was my joy. So I had to look at, I had to hold gratitude for what was good in my life. At that time. Even though things were a struggle for me. I knew that my baby was, was good, I was good with my baby, our feeding journey together was what helped helped me through that time. 

Emma Pickett  38:00

Yeah, good old oxytocin. During those stressful times, I'm thinking that the oxytocin from that feed would have really been helping you cope with some of this distress and isolation. And not that that, you know, I'm not saying that it helps everybody. And obviously, there are people who have significant mental health challenges, despite having regular feeds and oxytocin, but I can imagine it, it certainly would have helped a bit.

Mubareka Virjee  38:22

Definitely. And I would, I was reading all up on the science around that. And, you know, I was feeding and doing all that stuff where you know, even when the baby's asleep, you look at the baby's photos. And, you know, when you're, when you're feeding the baby, like, Oh, my baby, you know, you just have those moments. And they're so special and sacred, because before you know it, they just grow within a week, within two weeks. They're like a different baby from the one you just birthed. So you know how fast they grow. And you see how the milk actually forms them into like these little, little, from these little packages to these big, big parcels that are like what's going on. So I think the magic of that early motherhood, no matter how exhausting them at how tiring and how mental health challenging that whole pandemic was, it's like that was my journey. And I've learned to sort of embrace that as part of what made us today. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  39:13

So tell me a little bit now about the end of your breastfeeding experience, you know that you know, me and you know, I always bang on about weaning and support for weaning. What decisions did you make about how to bring your breastfeeding to an end? 

Mubareka Virjee  39:25

Luckily for me, my, my sister in law, who was my brother's first wife, she had also had a kid around the same time as me. And this was really powerful because I mean, she's been in my life since I was like eight years old. So for us to actually have a baby at the same time was like something we only ever used to laugh about, like so many years ago, when she'd be like, Come on, hurry up, get married, so you can have kids. So we can have kids the same age and literally, it turned out that I had a kid and she had a kid around the same time with her new partner, and she had already completed her breastfeeding journey. And when she told me that I was like, Okay, you need to tell me what I need to do, because I've got no idea. I've just been feeding and feeding and feeding. And that's all I know. But I think I'm ready to take that. Take that step. And she gave me some really sound advice, it was so simple and so powerful. She said to me, listen, when you're winning your child, or when you're taking your child off the breast, you have to know for a fact that that is what you want to do. Because if you are not sure, you are going to confuse that child. And that's just going to cause problems for you. So what you want to do is make sure that when you're ready to do it, you are ready. And that when you're going to make that decision, you're not going to go back. That's what she said to me. Okay, whether that's true or not.

Emma Pickett  40:57

I like that. I like that. I'm not not everyone who just feels 100%. But I definitely like the feeling of that. Certainly what we don't want is someone who's wavering. And as you said, as she said, that causes a child to feel confused and unsafe, we need to absolutely believe this is the right decision. And we've made that decision. And that's how we're moving forward. Because that will give us a confidence, which helps us be regulated, which helps us to regulate the child. Well done, whoever she is, I don't know her name. But yeah, that sounds very wise. Amazing.

Mubareka Virjee  41:25

She had done it before so many times. And I think what her went up with that is, you know, obviously making that aligned decision where your head head saying it, your body knows it, and it's and it's all kind of in alignment with each other. But I think the idea behind it was that, you know, once you tell that child No, or you know, you stop them from having the milk then then you don't go back and confuse them into thinking that Wait, can I have the milk? Can I not have the milk? So what she suggested was, you know, you get these kind of square, you know, like bandage plaster things that you can get the meatball ones or whatever. micropore that's it. I don't I don't remember which one it is. But it's I think it's me poor. It's the square ones. And she's like, just just put them on. And like the the night before, and when the baby wakes up in the morning for the feed. You just tell the baby that Mommy had an ouchy and that she can't feed you right now. And look, there's my bandages. Look, I can't You can't, you know, Mommy's got an ouchy that was the word she used. And then, you know, offer the baby some milk from a bottle or water or whatever, like something to kind of satiate their need. And I remember doing that with cat with my little son and he was crying and it was breaking my heart did see him cry like this. But I was like, No, I had to keep reminding myself know that I'm going to do this. This is the right thing. I made the right decision. It's going to be okay. It's okay. He's, of course he's gonna cry. And I'm not kidding. He cried his poor eyes out. And I remember that moment. And like, for 10 minutes, I was sitting on my bed just like Oh, my baby. But then I was like, You know what I said to him? Do you want to lie on my tummy? And he said, Yes. So he came in, lie down on my tummy. And he was so happy and so comforted, like skin to skin face to skin kind of felt that closeness that he wanted through the breastfeed. That's what he needed

Emma Pickett  43:20

was just being me me. That's what he wanted. He didn't but he didn't want. He didn't want a cup of milk. He didn't want it some water he wanted to connect with you and, and that I mean, that technique, and people who've listened to my podcast episodes of before will know that the technique of the ouchy is something I don't normally support. And that's not my bit, it's not my decision as to whether or not that was the right thing for you. And Cameron, it obviously worked. It worked for you and people you respect. So I don't want to sound like I'm too judgy. But what worries me about that technique is that it suggests to children that when we have our cheese, bits of body break forever, and plasters mean permanent breakage, which is a bit scary. But I also think it just doesn't quite acknowledge the emotional dimension of breastfeeding and how we need to ideally support children to find other ways to connect with us. But you've just described the version of that story with the ideal outcome where where you sensed that he needed that emotional connection to you he needed that physical connection. You knew it wasn't just about the bottle of milk or the cup of milk, you knew that you needed to feel that closeness and you instinctively gave him that which is lovely to hear. You come back at me if you think it's unfair of me to judge that technique. If you think that you think I'm coming across as you think you think I'm coming across as judgy I want you to call me out on that because I know I am. I know I am and you have every right to challenge me on that. I'm just nervous about that as a technique and I'd normally suggest people have done some work in preparation to kind of find other ways to connect with their child. And I think if it works, it works because you probably have already done that preparation you probably did have other ways to emotionally connect with him, he was able to say to you what he wanted, you sensed he needed that physical closeness. So you had actually done that other work without necessarily consciously preparing to win. So after he learned your tummy, he then calmed and regulated. And that was it. You never fed again after that. That was

Mubareka Virjee  45:20

it. He never even like asked, you never even then I also do want to kind of try to track that. But I do think it was the energy behind the decision that, that I think that for me was the biggest motivator to kind of like, I think it was just that helped me really set the boundary there. Right. But I would be curious to know, I mean, for anybody who may just be listening to just this one episode, what would you suggest? I mean, you probably have books on the whole thing. But now I'm just curious to know, what would you have suggested as an alternative to that solution? Because this is obviously, you know, this is just a method that worked for someone else worked for me. And, and that was that, but I don't obviously want to, I don't want to say because you're the expert here, I'm just

Emma Pickett  46:09

No, this is where we need to be really careful, because you are the expert on camera. And obviously, bloody, obviously, you are the expert on your son. And in that moment, I don't think you would have done that if it had felt wrong. So I think you are a very instinctive person. And I think if, if it really hadn't felt right, I think you would have, you would have gone in a different direction. I think it's so individual, every child is different. So we can't necessarily have one set of weaning rules that we follow, and everyone must follow my experiences with supporting families to win. And that's what a lot of my practices at the moment is, you've got to say, what's, what's your child's relationship to the breast. So if you've got a child, for example, who's feeding all through the night, that method isn't going to necessarily help them learn how to fall asleep in a different way, you're just going to have this brick wall, and it's going to be an absolute crisis. And you know, you're gonna get a very disrupted child. But the way you talked about it, it sounds as though it sounds that he wasn't feeding all through the night because it was only in the morning, he discovered the plaster. So it sounds as though you'd already possibly done some partial weaning already or feeding had already naturally been reducing so. And the fact that he didn't ask again, also suggests to me that he was probably quite ready to stop anyway, and that you'd already done some work about meeting his needs in different ways. I'm talking to two year olds, or not literally to the two year old, but I'm talking about two year olds who haven't got any other strategies to fall asleep, haven't got any other strategies to transition between sleep cycles, they are feeding, you know, 810 times a day, all through the night, every couple of hours, those are the families for whom the plaster is just going to have a complete meltdown situation, and possibly even a rupture in the relationship between the parent and the child, because the child literally won't know how to regulate and will just get very, very distressed. So in those situations, if someone is listening to this, and they don't have a camera, and they do have someone who's feeding all through the night and all through the day, we've got to start to add in other ways to meet needs before we can take the breastfeeding away. So we've got to add in other forms of connective play, we've got to give the child other things they can ask for what I call a communication buzz, giving them a chance to feel excited and empowered about making other requests, then we need to spend some time talking about maybe milk going away for other people and how in an abstract sense, breastfeeding doesn't last for everybody, then maybe we can add in looking at some picture books and talking about weaning, and maybe even making a pitcher but just for that family. But there's there's a whole process of the parent that coming up skilled in being able to support the child in a different way, learning how to help them transition between sleep cycles, doing some work on habit stacking, learning how to help them when they come home, from nursery to reconnect with you by doing play by doing other kinds of physical touch. So you're just you have to look at your child, why is your child still feeding? What does it needs? Does that meet? And how can we tap into that in a different way? And I My gut feeling is that you're describing a little boy, who's was already on that journey, even though you hadn't necessarily consciously done it. It sounds as though he wasn't feeding through the night. He was already transitioning between sleep cycles. And the key thing is his acceptance of that moment when breastfeeding wasn't available. The fact that he wasn't repeatedly asking he wasn't, you know, that wasn't something that he was asking for days later, which is what would happen in some of the families that I'm supporting. A child would just keep asking, and, you know, continue to cry and cry multiple times and get very, very distressed and start to show other forms of being under stress. So I know that some people listening to this will think oh, God, you know, who's What does bloody Emma thinks she has the right to, you know why she may not judge judging this technique. You know, you've described a technique that you were advised to do this technique by somebody you enormously spected so not only am I judging you, I'm judging her, which is completely not cool. But I and I totally don't mind being judged, I will hold my hand up and say that yes, I do judge that technique. And I also do judge people who leave their children for an extended period of time thinking that's how to end breastfeeding. Because as you said, at the very beginning of our conversation today, breastfeeding is not just milk, it's a bond, it's a sacred bond. It's a relationship. So when something is sacred, and something is Trump, the transfer of love, and we're making memory, that can't be ended with a click of the fingers, that's something that we have to take our time to think about, we have to give our child a chance to say goodbye in a in a loving, gentle way. And that isn't necessarily quick. Now, I have worked for families who've been in a medical emergency, and I've had to wean very quickly. And what you described could be a technique that feels very logical to an older child in that situation. So there are, there are always different scenarios, we can never make blanket rules where we absolutely can never ever win cold turkey. I'd be worried about your breast health in that situation, potentially as well. It doesn't sound like you did have any mastitis or any encouragement or anything. No. So

Mubareka Virjee  51:14

I was worried. I was obviously thinking about all of these things. Thankfully, I had educated myself with all the different things when it came to how the breast responds. In that situation. You're absolutely right, I had been on a journey of reducing the feeds, the feeds, were literally in the morning, I think at nap time. And before bed. So it literally was like maybe three feeds a day. And he was really eating like good, good amounts of food. And it was like I said, it was just like a comfort thing. And at that point, that was what, obviously it worked. And I wasn't expecting it to just be like, okay, one time thing because, you know, you prepare to, you know, continue that if need be where you, you know, give them other forms of comfort when they're looking for the breast. And I'm not saying that he never ever asked her again, I think maybe there has been moments where he's come to me and wanting something and, you know, that's when we do the lion Tommy thing. And that became a thing that we did for a long, long time. After that, you know, in the mornings, it's like, okay, I lift up my tarp, Let him lie down on my tummy, feel my skin, get that cuddle, you know, get that closeness and that that skin to skin touch. And I think that sometimes just like you said, it's just what they need, they just need that connection. And I think skin to skin is a really beautiful way to connect with the child, no matter what age they are, even if it is just, you know, putting your cheeks up against each other's cheeks, or, you know, just kind of letting them cuddle your leg, when you've got like a little dress on like, you know, I mean, just letting them feel the warmth of your touch. Because there's also like hormones that go through your body in those moments too. But, ya know, totally understand your point of view. And in fact, it's actually really good to educate on that. Because, you know, even if I hadn't got that information, I mean, I would have just looked up something on the internet. So it's really and not, not all the advice on the internet is going to be the right thing or the, you know, the most logical and nurturing way of doing it. So it is really important the work that you do to educate people and how to do this the right way for their journeys. So yeah, well, you're

Emma Pickett  53:27

very, you're very kindly accepting me being judgey thank you for both for allowing that. Yeah, so you're basically describing a little bloke who was already towards the end of his journey, to be honest, I mean, the fact that he wasn't feeding at all overnight when he was to just that morning, that bedtime, that's somebody who's in the sort of last stretch anyway. So it makes sense then to just have that, that sort of almost a sort of ritual ceremonial end to breastfeeding. The reason I'm nervous is because some people are told to do that method when their child is feeding every two hours, 24 hours a day. And if that if that is the road, they go down, they could potentially get mastitis, they could really get quite unwell themselves, not you know, putting aside the emotional implications and, and the emotional impact they might have on the child. So thank you for letting me talk about that. And thank you for giving me space to talk about that. And I am very grateful for you to to let me talk about that concept. It worked for you. And it worked for you because you had that foundation of being able to support him already and you had that you know, you you sensed how to connect with him you knew what he needed and and that you know, that sounds really beautiful. Lying on your own want to lie on your tummy? That sounds gorgeous. So it came to an end and that what did you do anything to sort of mark the ending of breastfeeding? Did you do any sort of celebration or say any special prayers or did you do anything to sort of mark that moment?

Mubareka Virjee  54:52

I think I was just really grateful because I felt like that was the moment where I could have my body back to myself. And I don't mean that in a selfish way, it just felt like time, you know, when you just know that I've exhausted myself in so many different ways for this beautiful child to exist and to grow. And now it's time for me to let go of this leg of the journey. And welcome what's to come next. I mean, if anything, I've, you know, one practice that's been really important for me throughout this whole journey over the last six, seven years of my life is just journaling. And, you know, talking to myself about what I've been through, and you know, I journaled those moments, and they were, they were important to me, it's like, Hey, I finally got to this end of the journey, and yes, I'm gonna miss it so much. And it's kind of like a grieving process, because, you know, you're grieving one, beautiful parts of your journey. But now it's, it's time for another aspect of it. So yeah, I was grateful for everything. And I just said, I knew it was time. And again, that does have a lot to do with me, connecting with myself. And knowing my my gut feeling around what was right for us. And again, that has a lot to do with being regulated and working on that consistently. Because we're not always going to be regulated 20 words ever. And I'll tell you that.

Emma Pickett  56:18

Yeah, journaling is it sounds like a healthy place, the healthy thing to do a healthy place to reflect on some of these feelings and, and give yourself a chance to think it through and that word grieving I think, is a really important word to use in this context. I think some people when they end breastfeeding, even when they were just doing three feeds, as you were can sometimes be quite shocked at the impact on on their emotions when breastfeeding ends. Some people have those weaning blues, and it may even feel quite down. And sometimes that's hormonal. Sometimes that's because they're saying goodbye to a sort of phase of their parenting, which can be difficult to say goodbye to. Yeah, well, congratulations on that breastfeeding journey. Rebecca, that's, that's really lovely and special. And he was a very lucky little bloke to have that opportunity to, to have that experience with you. So I'm going to ask you another question. If that's okay, just about Islam and breastfeeding. I'm not asking you to represent every Muslim woman in the world. But we were having a chat the other day about something called Milk kinship. And I don't know whether you have any you've done any thinking about that we were just talking about as a concept. And I was explaining that the Human Milk Foundation, which I'm involved with, has been doing some research around this and has produced a leaflet for Muslim families about milk, milk donation and, and traceability. You told me that your sister is a someone who studies the Quran and is particularly academic Is that is that I get that right.

Mubareka Virjee  57:43

Yeah, so it's Yeah. So basically, she I actually had a conversation with her just about this. And it was really interesting, because I was obviously curious to learn a bit more, I have a vague, I had a vague idea around it. But the idea behind milk kinship is that. So back in the day, when we were living in village, mothers who couldn't breastfeed their children would hand their children to somebody else who could breastfeed, and would let them breastfeed their child. Now the woman who breastfeeds, the child of someone else actually becomes bonded to that child. So it becomes like a blood kinship. So milk, kinship equals blood kinship. What that means is that the mother that that woman who's breastfeeding, Will, shall we call her, the white nurse would then become sort of like a relative to the child, and therefore would not be able to marry that child when that child grows up, or have their children marry that child because that her children would become almost like siblings to that child. And if you think about it, in those days, in order to have that kind of breastfeeding relationship with someone else's child, you'd have to be kind of living in the same sort of space. And your children would be growing up with these children. So they would naturally also have that kind of bond, like brothers and sisters. Obviously, fast forwarding to now things are a lot different. And as you say, there are now things like milk donor banks, which, you know, generations before us could have never imagined that would exist. But it's beautiful that it does. But what from my understanding from my conversation with my sister in law was that it's actually potentially it's about a certain number of feeds that would create that flesh and blood connection. So it's not necessarily like one bag of milk is going to make you the mother, the wetness mother of that child. It would be perhaps a certain number and obviously, that number could be dependent. We don't know the numbers. It's going to differentiate between different schools of thought, but it's worth understanding what that looks like, you know, to be able to make a sort of sound and understanding of what you know how to treat that mother. And you know, let them know that this is going to be a relation. So

Emma Pickett  1:00:15

many years ago, I attended something called the alternative parenting show and people were talking about adoption and surrogacy. And there was somebody there from Tower Hamlets adoption. And they explained to me that when a Muslim family adopts a baby, it's really common for the mum to want to induce lactation, because she wants to have that that milk, motherhood that, that you know, that kinship that connection to the new child, because then by bringing that new child into her sort of blood family, that means that for example, she doesn't have to cover in front of her son and but if she didn't have that milk connection, potentially, she might have to cover her hair in front of her son or there are certain things that she wouldn't be able to do in front of her son. So he was this adoption bloke was explained to me that he does a lot of work talking about induce lactation, and lots of the Muslim adopted adoptive parents would only feed for though he talked about three feeds. So it's interesting what you're saying about how the number of feeds might change, he said that they needed to do three feeds. And then they didn't they didn't have to cover in front of their child anymore. And they weren't they had that kind of bond. So I don't know whether whether where he got three from maybe that was from one family he'd worked with, or, and they will have one particular interpretation. Yeah, so I guess we're donor milk. Yeah, um, that's a really good point with, with donor milk, you're not going to get, it's very unlikely, you'd have the same donor multiple times. So we're talking about tiny babies with a very small quantity of milk. And, and some, some of these babies are only having, you know, one, you know, one feed perhaps before their, you know, their mom's own milk can be used. But I think the benefit of technology is that you can technically trace where milk comes from. And if you, if you were going to marry somebody and two families are coming together in 20 years time, you could say, you know, did your son ever have donor milk? And did I ever donate milk? To the hospital? You know, where is that? So ideally, you could provide that sort of information to a family, maybe then, um, that could help them, you know, feel peace around around those issues. Yeah, super interesting. Did your sister says, Did your sister not say anything else around it? Yeah,

Mubareka Virjee  1:02:30

one of the things that is quite commonly expressed in our religious history is fact that our Prophet Muhammad was actually a child who had a milk mother, that wasn't his own mom. And he had a lot of respect for her. And he, he grew up with the siblings, or his sort of the milk mother's kids were like his siblings. And that was how he was raised. Like I said, it wasn't something that I was thinking about before. But when he started talking about it, I got really curious. And I thought, this is really interesting, though. And it's true. I do remember that being part of the history is that yeah, Prophet Muhammad was fed by another woman. And again, that relation became like a bond of family. Now, what you mentioned about adoption, that's really interesting, I can definitely see how that would make sense, especially, like you said, induce the breast milk and the multiple feeds. However, just from my understanding, I mean, I don't know if this is true. But I would like to say that our religion would have the space, an honour for the fact that if you were to adopt a child, you know, God knows that that is now your child, in the sense that you wouldn't have to necessarily cover in front of that child when the child becomes 15, or whatever. But that's just me and my own humble opinion. Please don't come off to me. I just think it's really interesting, though, that, you know, the induce feeding thing is, is Yeah, it's really interesting what you've mentioned. So yeah,

Emma Pickett  1:04:05

yeah. I mean, I think I think what you just said makes perfect sense. I mean, Islam is a religion that's based on people being loving and kind towards each other. So of course, they'd be empathy for an adoption situation and, and an understanding around that. So that makes good sense to me.

Mubareka Virjee  1:04:19

I think Islam is a very misunderstood religion. And I think a lot of people who misunderstand it are those who are of the religion as well, if I can say so myself, because I do think that there's so much room for questions and interpretations. And I really think that the Quran is very open about asking questions and being open minded yet, a lot of people in our cultures and our communities can be very closed minded, which is kind of the opposite of the concept of Islam. So just want to put that out there. So for those who are wondering, you know, why should we question these things? It's because you know, that's what Islam is about. It's about education. It's about learning. It's about growing. So yeah, don't be afraid to ask questions, even if they're weird.

Emma Pickett  1:05:05

You're very kind and letting me ask my weird questions, Rebecca, thank you. No, no, no. You. Okay, so I'm gonna let you go to bed, because I think you've given me a lot of your time. And I'm very grateful. And we will continue this conversation off this podcast in other ways. And other times. Is there anything we haven't said about breastfeeding or your breastfeeding journey that you want to make sure that you say today,

Mubareka Virjee  1:05:30

I think we've covered most of it. I think one of the things I didn't mention was deal feeds a very good for during breastfeeding, if you mix it with hot water and just keep that keep drinking that on tap. That was something that my mom gave me. And if anyone's curious about looking into the Quran around that, you know, two year periods and things like that, I do know that it's first 233 of the second chapter of the Quran. So if you wanted that reference, that's for you. But aside from that, I think we've covered all bases. It's been a real pleasure to talk today. And man, I'm grateful to have come on this podcast episode with you. And I hope you got all your answers.

Emma Pickett  1:06:11

Thank you, Mubarak. I really appreciate that. So I'm going to put your Instagram in my in the show notes and your tick tock woman, aren't you i and I'm impressed with so Oh, I will. We'll put we'll put that link in your in the show notes as well. And people will know where to find you if they've got any more questions or if they want to tap into your lovely positive and intuitive approach to life and I know that you will help people and connect with people when they get to get in touch with you. Thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate so much.

Mubareka Virjee  1:06:41

It's been a pleasure to speak with you.

Emma Pickett  1:06:48

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.