Shona's weaning story

This week, I’m speaking to Shona, just three weeks after the birth of her second child, Vaila, who you can hear in the background! We talk about her feeding journey with four year old Jura, anxiety, miscarriage and aversion,  and how he weaned during her pregnancy.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned in this episode - 

Bedtime meditation from Nehanda Truscott-Reid https://www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com/resources

The book you wish your parents had read, by Philippa Perry

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/292159/the-book-you-wish-your-parents-had-read-and-your-children-will-be-glad-that-you-did-by-perry-philippa/9780241251027

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.  

Emma Pickett  00:45

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am very excited because we're going to be talking to somebody who's right in the thick of things, and is actually holding her newborn daughter right now who's only three weeks old. So if you hear little noises of a lovely baby crying failure, that's what's going on. So Shona has recently, obviously been through pregnancy, she's made the decision to wean during pregnancy. So we're going to talk about what that experience was like and how you wean a very keen breastfeeding little person. And then what happens when the baby's born? How does that little nursling cope? After baby's born and they're no longer breastfeeding? How do you get those relationships starting in a positive way. Meanwhile, also coping and managing to eat and sleep yourself. So we're going to talk about life right in the middle of that, that kind of early pregnancy bananas that period of time. And I'm incredibly impressed that she's able to join me on a zoom only three weeks after giving birth. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. So as I said, we've got we've got valeur with you, and if you need to beat or do anything, or she's really crossed, so you have to change a nappy, we will pause and have instrumental music while you go off and do that and we will make the editing work. So obviously the most important thing is looking after her. So you gave birth three weeks ago. How are you feeling? How was your birthday? How are you feeling today?

Shona  02:06

Yeah, I'm doing really well. Thank you. I had a very positive experience with her, which wasn't the same with my son. So I'm pleasantly surprised actually. Yeah, everything's going well, feedings going well, so have been really lucky.

Emma Pickett  02:21

Oh, brilliant. And your son Jura is four? How far along? Is he in four? Is he just four or is he for an adjustable so

Shona  02:29

he turned four the week after she was born? So only two weeks ago? He turned four. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  02:35

Okay. Tell us a little bit about his birth and his early breastfeeding experience. What was the start of juris breastfeeding, like? 

Shona  02:42

Yeah, so he was a very long labour back to back baby forceps in theatre delivery, postpartum haemorrhage, followed by very severe tongue tie, lost loads of weight. I was very fortunate to get help with a lactation consultant, and did manage to end up exclusively breastfeeding, but I did pump for probably the first two weeks he was born and I did tube feeding whilst pumping and trying to breastfeed him. So it was a really long, difficult journey. And just before the pandemic as well. So I think I really held on to breastfeeding atrophy as the thing I could do, because I wasn't very mobile after giving birth. And I've had loads of complications. And so breastfeeding was the thing that I felt that I could really do with him. And I really, really latched on to. And I was so fortunate to get the help that I needed to be able to feed him exclusively breastfeeding him. So yeah, we just went from there. And it was funny, really, because before having a baby, I wasn't sure I wanted to breastfeed and then just became really passionate about it. That's really interesting.

Emma Pickett  03:54

So you were literally one of those people in pregnancy going. I'll give it a go. Let's see what happened. Yeah. And where was that coming from?

Shona  04:01

I think just societal expectation. I hadn't had many people in my family that had breastfed. And I was something that I definitely wanted to do, but I wasn't set on it. And if you'd have told me that I would have been breastfeeding a almost four year old toddler I would have rolled my eyes probably made some kind of judgmental comment about myself. So I'm like hands up, completely converted. 

Emma Pickett  04:29

Yeah. You know what, you're not alone. There'll be a lot of people listening to this, like, Yeah, me too. If someone had told me I'd be breastfeeding my 23456 year old I'd be I'd think they were bananas. Absolutely. No way. Is that what I'll be signing up for but but days go by and as you said, use that phrase. Breastfeeding was something you held on to you latched on to him. That's really interesting that you sort of sensed it was something that you really needed, and I'm just trying to imagine what it must have been like in those first couple of weeks when you were still pumping. He wasn't actually No one and you'd had the haemorrhage and you're dealing with so many things. Wow, you must have been in a really difficult place. Yeah. But thank goodness for the lactation consultant. Do you feel like giving her a shout out? What was her name?

Shona  05:10

Oh, yeah, her name is Sue. She lives locally to me, actually, she's great. I actually have gone for a few dog walks with her since she's lovely. And because he had a tongue tie, she diagnosed that and then I was able to get that cut. And that was the thing that really saved my nipples.

Emma Pickett  05:28

Yeah, so so that was that was at the point when he started to latch on then. So those first couple of weeks, he wasn't really able to latch on at all in that time.

Shona  05:35

No, not properly at all. I had a lot of damage listed leading cracked nipples, all of it. And it's meant with my journey with her, I knew straight away that she had a tongue tie, and was actually able to get that cut quite quickly. Whereas with him, I just, I didn't know what was wrong. And yeah, it was it was amazing, actually, because we have been tube feeding him. As soon as we got the tie cart, you can even see the volume of milk that he was able to take in even not from my breast. 

Emma Pickett  06:03

So when you say tube feeding, you're not talking about an NG tube through the nose, sorry, just like on your, on your finger, your finger feeding with the tube where Yeah, yeah, finger feeding is something we don't talk about very much. And I think it's really good to get a shout out for it, because it can be so useful.

Shona  06:18

Relaxing, my husband did the finger feeding, which I think helped him as well, but sort of maybe he was helping me. And in terms of how partners can help and things that really helped me so I was able to pump whilst he did that. Um, and then I try and match him on every time as well. But I did end up with like a huge oversupply as well, because I think I was pumping so much offering him so much. Yeah, it took us a while to regulate things. But once we did he, he was never

Emma Pickett  06:48

sailing along. So so hit there he goes breastfeeding happily through his first year, you get into the second year continuing to go, did you have a sense of your goals and how long you wanted to go for you were just kind of letting him take the lead at that point?

Shona  07:01

I think I, one of the positives of the pandemic, which I now have heard a few people say is that there was none of that outside judgement. So I didn't really question that I wouldn't be feeding him. And I'd actually know done research and knew the WHO guidelines that were suggesting that you breastfeed for two and beyond. So I think I'd always said I'll do it until he's two. And then I'll sort of go from there. But as soon as the world opened up, and I started going out, it was the first time that I started getting comments. It wasn't till he was over a year or 18 months that, you know, I started getting the odd comment from family or friends about, oh, is he still feeding? Or oh, when are you going to give them a bottle or those sort of things that I think I would have felt pressure to have introduced bottles, had I'd been able to go out and do things, but I didn't. And I'm really, I'm actually really thankful that I I didn't get that pressure. It means that for this journey, I'm not even thinking about that. Now, whereas I do think I would have felt the pressure. At that time. Had I not just been able to kind of do what felt right for me.

Emma Pickett  08:07

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting said that about the pandemic, I think lots of people seem Oh, pandemic must have been lower breastfeeding rates. You know, we didn't have breastfeeding support groups. You know, we couldn't see health visitors, but actually some of the research we have. So there's a research study coming out of Wales, for example, which shows slightly higher breastfeeding rates. And I think probably for the reasons you say that people were able to, to create that cocoon and just really nest down and not worry about those outside pressures and just get on with it. And sadly, we do live in a world where we do get those those negative comments, and I did an episode about about family pressures, you know, in my one of my first few episodes when it can be the worst thing. So you've got family members who aren't necessarily on the page around carrying on breastfeeding. I don't want to put you in a difficult position here. But is that is that was that a conversation that continued as Jura got older?

Shona  08:56

Oh, yeah, definitely. I think still is the thing. I mean, I thought it was funny as well to teach in the word boobies, so he'd be out shouting boobies whenever he wanted. But yeah, definitely. Especially from male family members, which I find. Yeah, now I'm quite happy and proud to sort of save my mind on it. But yeah, my my father in law, he definitely was probably one of the first to make comments, I think, because he felt uncomfortable himself being around me. But yeah, I think people have they know that I'm so passionate about now that they stopped making comments. And I don't think they will this time around. But yeah, I had a lot of comments mainly from male family members, but definitely from everyone and friends just saying, oh, when are you? When are you going to give them a bottle or when we started being invited to weddings and things and I'd say oh, you know, I can't leave my, my son. There were comments of oh, just give them a bottle. So yeah, I've had it from quite a few people. But I think people have stopped now because like I was able to share my opinions on it.

Emma Pickett  10:02

And so when you say share your opinions on it that sounds like a euphemism for being very, you know, forthright and expressing? Clearly. Did you have any really sticky moments where you had to sort of say, right, listen, mate, this isn't reality. Did you have any follow on rounds? How did you handle that?

Shona  10:16

Not not any follow on rounds. But I definitely made comments and suggested, make comments to his family. That one moment that does stick around, which I always felt awful about, as I'd taken, my son was one of the first things we did after things opened up properly, took my son on the London Eye with my father in law. And he was obviously just completely overwhelmed by being in a bubble, he probably didn't know what was going on. And he must have only been about 18 months, but he was really shouting for wanting the milk. And I felt really self conscious, and didn't feed him on the London I fed him in a restaurant after. And I remember feeling awful. I still feel a bit bad now, but I didn't give him what I was asking for. And it was purely because I was worried about the judgement of family in front of other people. And it's something that I still think now Oh, I definitely wouldn't have an issue. Now feeding feeding habit was only because he was that a little bit older. And I definitely did feel filled the judgement and had comments made. And yeah, I wasn't immune to it. It took me a while to sort of, you know, I think I think I just started saying, Oh, well, the WHO recommends to two years and beyond. So it feels right for us. But yeah,

Emma Pickett  11:38

you've created a very vivid picture of that London, I experience I was at half an hour or so to go around the London I can just imagine how how torn you were in that moment. But you know, as you say, we're not immune. You know, even people who work in the breastfeeding support world whist, we're not immune from those pressures. You know, there's a whole society bearing down on us, and it's not easy. So I hope you can forgive yourself for that. And that's that's, even though it's not something you're necessarily repeating. Again, it's I think it's important to forgive yourself for that moment. So he Gera becomes two he becomes three, and you're going to get pregnant very soon. Were you trying while you're still feeding him expecting to turn and feed or just waiting to see whether you'd conceive? What were your What was your thinking in that phase? Just before you got pregnant with Vaila? 

Shona  12:24

Yes. So when we first started trying, I was fully feeding him around the clock cosleeping feeding, I think he probably was feeding kind of more than more than he had when he was younger. And then I was having trouble getting pregnant. And I had a couple of very early miscarriages. And I wasn't, I wasn't sure if the feeding was related to that. I kind of worked out I did have a very short luteal Is that is that that's how you pronounce it. Yeah, days, which I'd actually read some of your work on. And I can't remember the name of the other positive

Emma Pickett  13:02

Carol Carol Smith. Yeah, yeah. So Carol Smith, who I interviewed for my episode on breastfeeding fertility she is my go to for questions about fertility and breastfeeding. She's great for her articles on breastfeeding and sub fertility are really helpful. So that short luteal phase is often the barrier for implantation and a pregnancy being sustained beyond the kind of red chemical pregnancy stage. And sometimes it's also about egg maturity as well. It's a really difficult time because, you know, we would value breastfeeding and we don't want to lose that breastfeeding. And, and obviously, there are people who conceive and get happily pregnant while still frequently breastfeeding. So it feels horribly unfair to think that breastfeeding might be a factor in that. Do you mind me asking and I don't want to dwell on this if it feels uncomfortable. How early were your those losses? 

Shona  13:51

Yeah, so the first one was like a purely chemical pregnancy really? And the second one was about six, seven weeks around that mark. And yeah, I I knew that my luteal phase was short. And I definitely I think I was you that I'd written sort of leaving a gap of was it six hours? 

Emma Pickett  14:14

Yeah. So that's something that Carol, Carol and I would have been you would have been doing this way before Carol and I had that podcast interview but yeah, so So gap of five to six hours for some people can trigger, you know, an ovulation and make a little bit of a difference. Yeah. So that was the direction you went in. Was it? 

Shona  14:32

Yeah. So I think I, I felt very torn because my son, he's very sensitive. And he really, you know, it was such a strong thing for us that connection with breastfeeding. And I knew that I didn't want to completely wean him off. And I was also aware that I wanted to be very open with him about about weaning when we when we did start, so that was the trigger to make me think okay, I'm actually not sleeping that well either. and night, weaning felt like sort of a good first step for me, that could age getting pregnant, and also would help probably a bit with my sleep. And I was getting really bad aversion as well, every time I was sort of on that, on my cycle, in the middle of the night, I'd get really bad aversion. And there was a couple of times where I'd say to him, stop it, you know, not in a not in a kind way, or a way that I'd want to be speaking to him in the middle of the night. So I just felt for me, when I added it all up, I thought, yeah, night weaning seemed like the first step. 

Emma Pickett  15:35

So he's three at this point, or just having recently turned three? Yes, a little bit about how you went about doing the night weaning.

Shona  15:43

So I basically followed all of your suggestions. So I sort of layering on technique was the thing that I thought would help so finding something else that would help to sort of soothe him or for him to connect sleeping with because he'd always fed to sleep. Yeah, up until he was three than it was very rare that he would go to sleep without being fed, and even bedtimes with other people, his dad had maybe done three bad times over the course of three years, because I just done them all. Nothing that he wouldn't, but it was much quicker for me to just beat him to sleep than for dad to sit for an hour with him getting upset. 

Emma Pickett  16:27

So you're not you're not that you've got this magic tool. If you're in the house, why not use it if it's easy for everybody. So you chose some sort of habit stacking methods. And thank you for mentioning me. I'm not going to take the credit for these ideas. I'm just bringing ideas together from other places. Lindsey Hookway is great at talking about habit stacking. What did you choose for your habit? What were you doing alongside meditation?

Shona  16:50

The meditation that's on your website from Nahanda. I have thought about recording my own but I've never got around to it. But used has. I can almost probably say it off by heart in my head.

Emma Pickett  17:02

I won't, I won't test you and make you do it. Yeah, she's got such a lovely voice, isn't she? Yeah, a few people have messaged me and said that they've really found that helpful. Yeah, so anyone who's not come across it on the resources page on my website, is a recording made by Nahanda Truscott-Reed who is is just got this gorgeous voice. And she's got little sort of chime bars and little musical things. And it's just a really nice peaceful way for a child to fall asleep. So you played that while you're breastfeeding? Yeah. And before you did night, when, by the way, how frequently was he feeding in the night? What did a typical night look like for you?

Shona  17:34

He would wake every probably still every three hours. And when he was unwell, almost constantly just, yeah, wake up. And he's in his sleep, you know, matter boobie many times. So he was a very frequent feeder. 

Emma Pickett  17:51

Okay. And were you co sleeping with him? Where was everybody? 

Shona  17:54

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's got like a double floor bed, but I was co sleeping with them. And I was dancing with him. And I'm with the baby. 

Emma Pickett  18:03

Okay, so you started with your meditation on top of your breastfeeding, and that was happening at bedtime? What happened? And what was the next step?

Shona  18:10

I think started talking to him about it. One of the things that you speak about a lot, and I'd generally in parenting, than a lot of work on was sitting with that negative emotion, which I did find very hard. But yeah, talking to him about explaining that, that mommy was tired. I needed a bit of a break that we can still have babies in the morning. But overnight, we're just try cuddles and listening to the meditation. And it did take a long time. But he Yeah, he, he was upset about it a few times. But it did kind of because he was very patient with it. It did kind of just slowly happen. It wasn't like we introduced the meditation, and he was pretty happy with it. I stopped asking for it. But it just gradually I think he'd wake up at night and it wouldn't be the first thing that he'd think of. 

Emma Pickett  19:02

Okay, so you didn't go for kind of all or nothing right? Mate? We're not winning boobs asleep all night. You didn't do that? No, you were so he was waking and you were maybe offering the breast and then breaking him off and during the meditation or were you tell us a little bit about what a typical, like the night would be?

Shona  19:21

We'd start going to sleep with the meditation. And if he'd asked for it, I would give him the breast whilst whilst listening to it. And then during the night, if he'd wake up, I did do a countdown. So I'd say okay, I'm going to count down from 10 or five. I think we probably started about 20 seconds and we got down to I'll be able to just say like three to one and he'd, you know, not really have any. And that kind of helped him I think. And yeah, just when he got upset, I would just be honest and say, Oh, it's hurting mommy or I'm not really wanting to do that right now. But we were still I think I managed to cut it down. So he may be woke up once in the night and might have a tiny bit before then was able to fall pregnant. And then when I fell pregnant, that's when we kind of fully started weaning night weaning completely. 

Emma Pickett  20:17

Okay, and so it sounds as though you did, you took a very gentle approach and took your time and, you know, sometimes waited for him to ask. But it sounds like countdown was really key the idea of, of having the symbolic feed, but the actual reality of how many, you know, millilitres he was getting that was gradually reducing until it ended up literally being a symbolic feed that three to one probably isn't even a mouthful of milk, that's not likely to be a milk ejection reflex. And when you were doing the counting, was he was he angry about that? Was he resisting that? Or was he happy to? Because he knew the meditation was coming next. And that felt familiar? What kind of emotions were you dealing with, in those moments?

Shona  20:55

Think a bit of everything. He's very emotional. I'm happy to share his emotion. So there was anger he did, you know, hit me a couple of times, because he was so frustrated. He wouldn't ever try and sort of take it without asking me, he would always say, these are those a few times where he'd get really upset. And I, I would, I guess, give and I don't want to use the word given. But I would end up giving it to him. I think I just, I kind of knew when he was really actually distressed by it. And when he was obviously upset by it, but it wasn't going to really impact him. My guess is that, I don't know if I phrase that well. But yeah, I sort of kind of took his lead on it a lot. And if he was really upset, I did still give it to him. I wasn't, I was in no way, saying we weren't going to do it at all. It was a very slow process. But he did show anger, he did show upset. And we spoke about it a lot during the day as well. It wasn't just a thing at night. We'd talk about it. And he would quite often say, oh, I want I want to have that tonight or and we were still feeding in the day. So yeah, we 

Emma Pickett  22:07

did you find any picture books helping source? And totally? Did you find any books that helped you or anything that was useful to know,

Shona  22:13

I didn't I did think about doing that. But I think we just we've got a very kind of open communication. So I think we just spoke about it a lot. And we did speak about it a lot. 

Emma Pickett  22:23

Yeah, yeah. And actually, you're very gentle, slow approach. There isn't really a book about that. There. You know, there's books of you know, Jack, or Sally or whoever just kind of doesn't breastfeed one day or doesn't need it as much or stops having it there isn't that there isn't a book that really allows for that very gentle sort of negotiation step by step. So I can see why it wouldn't have felt if you wanted to necessarily go down the pitch a bit route. So you got pregnant when he was still having a little feed in the middle. And I'm guessing after two previous losses that that was mixed feelings in those very early days. I'm sorry that you had those two losses. I think that word chemical pregnancies are rubbish word because it is, you know, it's a loss, for sure. And then you had to scan around the sort of six week mark, did you at that point?

Shona  23:11

No, I actually, I think because of the second time that it had happened. I've had quite bad anxiety around. And I think I almost didn't believe this time when I did get pregnant with her that it was going to happen. So there was one day where I did like a crazy amount of tests, I did like six or seven tests. And on one of the tests, the line had got a bit fainter, and I convinced myself that meant it wasn't happening again, I remember realise that mentally that wasn't healthy for me. So said, I'm actually just not going to do anything for that until 12 weeks, wait for the scan. And I kind of surprised myself actually by holding out that that long. But I was definitely maybe a bit anxious about feeding him during that time. If I'm honest. I think I told him that I was that I was pregnant, I was so sick that I'm not very good at hiding things even from him. So I said, I'm trying to grow baby. And I think I said, You know what, my body's a bit tired. So I might not be able to give you babies as much. But it was partly that in my mind, I was worried that if I fed him late, something might happen. But slowly that kind of stopped feeling that way. As I realised I'd got to the point that I was more pregnant than I had been last time. And then we were Yeah, we were really lucky that everything was okay at that 12 week scan.

Emma Pickett  24:34

Yeah, well, I'm so glad that that that was your experience. And now we have the lovely VEDA who I'm looking at her right now, because we can see each other even though the podcast is audio only, you know, feeding him and obviously lots of breastfeeding shouldn't have impacted on a pregnancy. But I just for anyone who is listening to this, I just want to reassure that we don't have evidence that that would have put your pregnancy at risk, but I am saying that without wanting to do Smith's how you are feeling because feelings are not always based on science and logic. They are based on, you know, emotions and previous experiences and a sense that is that doesn't always come from a kind of evidence research angle.

Shona  25:12

Oh, yeah, it was a complete emotional reaction. I kind of knew in my head that there was no evidence to suggest that would be I think I was just scared of doing anything that would could do anything, even though it didn't. And I didn't stop feeding him. I was still feeding. But the aversion started quite quickly, as I got pregnant. It did get quite painful quite quickly. And, yeah, the aversion of not wanting to be touched was was pretty strong. 

Emma Pickett  25:43

Okay, so within the first few weeks, even before 12 weeks, you were starting to x parents those feelings. So that led you to think I'm not going to be turned and feeding this is not going to be working. Is that? Is that something you'd already thought about before the aversion? Are you? Were you open to that before the aversion?

Shona  25:58

I was, I was open to tandem feeding. And I think even when I was sort of thinking, Okay, we're going to have to cut back here, I was still open to the fact that he might pick it up again. But it was just something that I kind of knew it wouldn't be fair on him because I was just gonna get frustrated at him feeding because the version was really bad. I think we just did countdowns every time he wanted to see even in the day, so Okay, yeah, he can have a little bit. And so he did. He did keep latching on throughout my pregnancy really, until the end. But it wouldn't be for very long. He wasn't really getting the milk. It was a comfort for him.

Emma Pickett  26:36

Did you sense that your supply had dipped? I guess it's difficult to know what the cause of that was. Well, he wasn't really latching on okay. 

Shona  26:42

And he told me. He was yeah, he was still latching. But he wasn't properly drinking. But yeah, he told me, he'd get frustrated and say there's no, there's no milk here. And then I sort of had to try to hand express to see if there was, you know, just a squeeze to see. And yeah, I think maybe about 16 weeks, my milk seemed to have stopped. And then he did kind of try and he would try a few times, I can't remember it was getting to a point where we wouldn't match on every day. But occasionally he'd say, Oh, can I check if there's any milk? And I'd say yeah, sure, have a go. And he'd be like, no, no milk. And then we were on. We went on a holiday, actually. And he said, Oh, can I check? I think you've got an ear infection. That was the first time he'd been really ill since I'd been pregnant. He was really unwell. And he kept saying that he wanted milk. And he Yeah, he latched on. And my colostrum must have come in, and I must have been over 20 weeks by then. And he was like, Oh, this there is milk there. And I said to him, oh, what does it taste like thinking? He'd say, oh, it's really sweet. And he said, oh, it just tastes like love. Just thought it was like

Emma Pickett  27:55

she gave me on the marketing team. Breast milk, because that is a that's fantastic lesson.

Shona  28:02

But I think he was just quite happy that it wasn't like he then wanted to feed and he was feeding lots. I just think he was quite happy that I wasn't saying, oh, you can't have this. Yeah. And him just having like, the tiniest little circle was like enough. And yeah, we just went from there. Really, whilst I was pregnant, he'd occasionally ask and I'd occasionally say yes or no,

Emma Pickett  28:24

to not necessarily every day, just every not every day,

Shona  28:27

just every now and again. He'd made me think of it. Overnight, the meditation was working in he had stopped having any, whatsoever. So able to do a few more bedtimes. 

Emma Pickett  28:39

Okay. And did you find that there were big feelings. I'm just trying to think, because it's all sounding very gentle and easy at the moment that he's kind of, he's very accepting of the fact that milks going he's very accepting of the fact he's not breastfeeding. Were you having to kind of invest in other ways to connect with him? What was what was happening outside of that?

Shona  28:57

I think the big feelings are probably in my head underplayed? How big they probably were at that first point, when we first started doing the countdowns and things he was really upset. And when we talked about it in the day, I will probably compensate by feeding him in the day. But as I got more and more pregnant, he around the feeding, there wasn't big feelings, but there were big feelings maybe coming out in other areas. So yeah, especially around dad as well. Taking things out maybe more on him getting frustrated around dad just wanting mommy, lots of hitting. Lots of hitting actually. And things like that, that. I think it was maybe partly that things were changing. And milk had been a big thing, but because I didn't completely stop him having it. He seemed to understand that but we did have conversations and he would frequently say, oh, yeah, I'm going to have milk when the baby to I'd say, Oh, how long do you think he wants to have food before and he'd say Oh until I'm 10. Or I'm going to always have it. So I kind of thought he might start picking up again when she arrived. But it was when she arrived, she must have been two days old. And we were at home and she was having milk. And he came up to me and he said, I'm a big brother. Now, I'm not going to have babies. And it kind of shocked me because I hadn't put that message on him at all of, oh, you're big. Now, I haven't said anything like that. And I sort of questioned if someone else had said something to him. So I said, Oh, what made you think that? And he said, oh, it just came into my head. He said, I might have something to cup, but I don't want it if I'm out to being on it. It was almost like, Oh, my God decided, oh, no, I'm, I'm big. And she's a baby. And I don't I don't want that now.

Emma Pickett  30:50

Gosh, that's so interesting. So I love that phrase. I don't want it if our mouths been on it. So I'm sure it didn't. It didn't mean in terms of like yuck germs. But there's something like, you know, he sensed it was Hearst, didn't he? Yeah. His her domain and not his anymore.

Shona  31:07

Yeah. Wow. And then since then, he's asked for kind of think in the last three weeks, he asked to have some in a cup. So I put some in a company said it looked like coffee, and he didn't think it would look like that. And they didn't want it. And then a couple of times, he's asked for it in a cup or asked if I can, he can have a bit in his mouth, but he's not wanted to latch at all. He's kind of Yeah, almost seems like oh, yeah, that's the baby. But he's very forthcoming. Whenever she cries. He's like, Oh, she must, she must want to be and he will come and help her habit. He's tried to undo my brother and get it there for her and 

Emma Pickett  31:47

a peer supporter. Sounds like he's breastfeeding advocate, you'd really left yourself open to that possibility. And at the sounds like it was very much led by Him. I mean, at the end of your pregnancy, just prior to giving birth to valid, you were still open at that point. You were so you, and you were just waiting to see what happened. Did you know anybody else that had turned and fed after pregnancy?

Shona  32:09

Yeah, I knew someone that happened not with a child the same age difference. So people were children that were Yeah. closer in age. I think when he said he didn't want to feed anymore. I was a bit like, oh, it made me really emotional. Because I was kind of like, oh, yeah, that okay. But I think I am actually quite happy now. Yeah, so happy now that he's not really wanting to run. I think now if he actually asked to start again, I'd probably probably rather he did. And if I'm, if I'm thinking about it now. Yeah, I feel quite happy with where we've got to on the journey. That's a good place to be

Emma Pickett  32:52

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  33:41

So when you gave birth to Vaila, you mentioned that your birth had been very different from juris birth and had been a little bit more straightforward. But were you you were separated from Jura for the birth were you? 

Shona  33:51

Yes. So yeah, it was it worked out really lucky actually. That while my my waters broke before I went into labour on his bed whilst I was reading him a bedtime story. Which sounds really dramatic, but it actually meant that we were able to say, okay, the baby's gonna be here within a couple of days. So you can go to grandparents. And that was one thing he'd never spent a night away from me or his dad. Until maybe a few months ago, we started letting him go for sleepovers or grandparents to get him used to it. And the meditation came in really helpful then because it just meant that we've now got a tool that wherever he goes, we can just play that and he can go to sleep. The other thing that we did as well as we went to build a bear and I recorded in a teddy bear me saying I love you, good night, which he can play, if I'm not there. So yeah, he was able to go to grandparents and know that the baby was coming. And he was excited that today and he stayed there for two nights and then came home. 

Emma Pickett  34:55

Okay, so were you home when he came home? You were there in the house. Hold on valeur he walks through the door. What what you kind of prepared for what was that moment? Like when they first met each other? 

Shona  35:07

Yeah, so I was definitely worried that because he can be quite emotional and yeah can be physical with his emotions, I didn't know how he was going to react. So I actually, the grandparents are in my home. So I went upstairs with the baby. And we'd said, Oh, he was going to be the first person to meet his sister. And I had to sit lying next to me on the bed, but not in my arms. So I could say to him, Oh, I've missed you or give you a big, big hug. And we bought him a present from her, which was a camera, so he could be the person to take pictures of everything. And we also got a medal that said, big brother. And it was just really sweet. To be honest, it went far better than any of my expectations. He, you know, he just was really gentle with wanted to hold her. Wanted to cuddle her. And then yeah, it must have been the next day that you said, oh, you know, you really seem to enjoy the idea that he was this big brother. And he was this grown up and he was going to teach her things. And yeah, there was Yeah, then the next day that he announced that he wasn't having baby anymore. And that side of things just went really smoothly. But I am aware that I'm making. Everything worked well.

Emma Pickett  36:25

I don't think to be honest, even if that was true. Shona, you deserve that after your first experience of birth, and those early days of breastfeeding, whichever I think, even if that was true, you deserved it. But you'd obviously done a lot of preparation with him. And you know, you've got that really emotionally honest relationship with him, you're, you know, you're communicating with him, all these things were laid down that got you to this point. And so, you know, it wasn't luck, that that got you to a place of having a little empathic, you know, nearly four year old it was, it was, you know, you prepared him to get to that place. So when he came in, you were sort of, if he wanted to breastfeed, you would you would have been up to it. You didn't. But you didn't offer you waited for him to mention it. 

Shona  37:06

Yes, exactly. I just didn't say to her, although there was no point I said to him, Oh, would you like this or anything. But I was very, you know, open that when she was looking like she wanted a feed. That's what she wanted. And he seemed to just really enjoy. Actually, as soon as she was feeding that he kind of knew what she needed as well. And that he could be there while she was feeding. There's been a few times where he said, Oh, I don't want the baby around. I just want to cuddle mummy and I've stopped sleeping in the room with him and his dad's been in with him, which has been hard. The first night he actually slept on the floor in the bedroom, and also the baby. And not that it's been really hard. There was a few bad times where he was getting really angry and upset that he wasn't with me. Even the sleep setup, I hadn't really thought too much into it before having her. At first I thought that we might all end up in his bed with her on in a moses basket on the floor and there or, but this is definitely, I think worked out better for all of our sleep because I also didn't want to be waking him up every two, three hours. So she was feeding in the night. So that's probably been the hardest bit actually, whilst removing the breastfeeding, I was still there and able to give kudos. This next transition has been me not sleeping next to him, which has actually probably been the harder part because I think, as he said, you know, if you're removing the breast, but you're still able to provide your you know, you're still there, you're able to provide support and connection. But removing me has probably been the hardest part. I don't know what will happen in the future. 

Emma Pickett  38:51

Yeah. And it's still early days, isn't it? There's a possibility that there might be a bit more bed bedroom juggling. Yeah. Is he sleeping quite well in the woods with his dad or does he is he still wet? 

Shona  39:01

Yeah. Now he might be wakes up a tiny bit. Once we were we were laughing because you know all this sleeping through the night or whatever. He started sleeping through the night as it were, I guess we are when she was born. Which probably shows that. Yeah, he he was just waking up and getting comfortable. I mean, he wakes up and wants cuddles. And in the morning he'll come through and once cuddles. So I guess maybe he sleeps through the night every day. But he's still waking up but not needing anything.

Emma Pickett  39:33

A cuddle. Yeah, that sounds like a good place to be. I'm guessing that day when he said, You know, I'm a big brother and I'm not going to have baby anymore. That probably hit you right in the middle of what we call the baby blues. Those Those first sort of three or four days when you've got that big hormonal wash. So I imagined that it felt particularly poignant at that moment immediately after birth. Yeah, I'm trying to remind them or imagine his little face and you and you trying to not look shocked, but also supportive at the same time. It's a combination of different feelings going on there.

Shona  40:04

Yeah, I think that way was definitely easier for me him kind of declaring it and being quite proud, rather than it being the opposite of me not wanting him to and him asking to order found that much harder. So yeah, it kind of shocked me, but it hadn't been a, it hadn't been a quick road towards it. So I guess we probably were both ready for it. But yeah, it did. It did. shock me how much I was like, Oh,

Emma Pickett  40:33

do you remember his last feet? Do you remember the last time he latched on?

Shona  40:36

No and I think that's the one thing that I probably do feel a bit. Like, maybe not sad over. But yeah, I don't know, have a picture of our last feed or a memory of it. I suppose. I just told you in my memory that time they said it tasted like love was probably really one of the last times that he actually properly had any. And it made me happy. So I'm hoping to hold on to that

Emma Pickett  41:01

I can imagine makes me happy and I'm only part of the family. Yeah, I'm gonna think a lot of people who have children that end up self weaning, which I think we can probably say is what is what Jura did I don't know, the last feed. I mean, many, many people had don't know when their last feed was and, and you end up looking back on the whole feeding experience as a whole. Rather than than remembering a specific mass feed and, and what you're describing is, is really a beautiful feeding journey. So it sounds well cheesy to say it but well done for doing handling that so beautifully. And and supporting him through the night weaning and also knowing when it felt right to look after yourself and, and managing it in a way that that protected everybody's feelings. And as you say, you can't remove all the negative feelings entirely, but But you obviously really supported him. And three weeks on, he's three weeks of a big brother. Yeah, I mean, it's, he's happy and getting on well with Have you had any aggression towards her? Has he been? You mentioned him saying, you know, I don't want baby to be here. But have you been worried about him being aggressive?

Shona  42:05

No, the only thing that he has done not with her. And it is there was one day where he tried to push over the Moses basket downstairs, but she wasn't in it. And he has. clambered and knocked her a couple of times. But he's been like, Oh, I'm sorry. But I probably been surprised by my reaction to that of getting annoyed at him when I know it's nothing that he's done intentionally, but that, you know, protective 

Emma Pickett  42:29

mama bear came out. Yeah, that is instinctive, isn't it?

Shona  42:33

Yeah. So no, it's been good. But I have been very lucky to have my husband at home for the last three weeks. With China to the events on holiday. So next week, when it's I'm not able to say Oh, Daddy can hold very low. Whilst I give you a quarter law, we might have a little bit more of a challenge. When I can't put baby down, you know, as soon as he wants me, but yeah.

Emma Pickett  43:00

Are you a baby wearer? Do you have slings? 

Shona  43:03

Yes. Yes, I am actually wearing like a sling top at the moment, but she was she wasn't that happy in it. So yeah, I have got slings and carriers. So yeah, that's, that's basically gonna be my plan, I think. And he has a nursery, other than one that will be holidays, but from 8.30 till 3.30 at the local primary school, so I've got a lot of time with her on my own. And hopefully, we'll be able to give him that sort of dedicated time before bed. 

Emma Pickett  43:36

Yeah, it sounds as though not sleeping with him is something that that you're feeling as well as he might be feeling. And you're going to, you're going to find other ways to connect with him. You're going to, you're going to find things that you do that are special that he can ask for that, you know, does the times that you'll spend together and she'll be there too because she can't go anywhere else but you're gonna you're gonna find those things. What are the things that he's really excited about? What are his passions in life is your track train bloke or an artist, all of the things he loves?

Shona  44:08

Yeah, he loves He loves drawing and making models. So we come home with various cereal boxes and things from nursery and yesterday, actually, he came home and it was really sweet. He'd drawn a picture of four flowers a really tall one or getting progressively smaller. He said, These are my family flowers, a daddy flower, mommy flower, and Jura flower and a Vaila flower

Emma Pickett  44:32

We're missing an opportunity. We should sell him to an advertising agency. Because he's coming up with some golden stuff here that really the heart of a campaign, but you know, yeah, I switch off my commercial mind. He's such a sweetie, what a button. 

Shona  44:47

I mean, he has his moments where he's not sweetly he I told him I pick him up from nursery the other day didn't and his dad picked him and on the way home he asked his dad why he didn't have a good mother. So I don't refer to myself as a mother. And he's told us at various points over the last few weeks that we're ruining his life as well, which is a phrase that we're not sure where it's coming from. So he's, he's not all. I think as everyone is they have good demotions and bad emotions. And he's definitely had.

Emma Pickett  45:18

He's so good at expressing his feelings, isn't he? So that was really cross because I was expecting mommy, I've got Yeah. What can I do with these cross feelings? I'm going to come out with this excellent statement. And what did you What did your partner say to?

Shona  45:31

I think he said he didn't have a good mother, but you just upset that she didn't pick you up from that story? And he said, Yes. So I went the next day. And he also told me that I'd broken my promise, which definitely came from an episode of Bluey, where dad breaks a promise. I think he's a big fan of that show.

Emma Pickett  45:49

What was the promise he had broken? About going to nursery that? Yeah, going to nursery? Yeah, I would say if that's what his focus is on, you're doing pretty well showing up? Because if you know, if he's focusing on the one time you can end up picking him up from nursery. He's his complaints are not significant. It sounds like you're doing a fantastic job. 

Shona  46:06

Yeah, I think he I definitely get a lot of the love and, and things but his dad definitely gets a lot more of the negative emotion. I think because when he's with dad, he's not with money. Not always we do spend time together as a family. But yeah, I think if his dad was doing a podcast, he'd probably be telling a different, a different tune. Because he's, at the moment having to deal with a lot more of his negative throwing things out and being really upset. So we're working on that. It's not all all rainbows. 

Emma Pickett  46:44

And that's not necessarily about having Vaila. That's about, you know, being just turned four. I mean, there's all sorts of Yeah, but you can never pull out what is the variable that causes a little person to have difficult moments? How does your partner feel about going back to work and still co sleeping? He's happy about that he's able to cope sleep wise.

Shona  47:02

Yeah, I should ask him really, I think actually, he is he surprised himself by enjoying having cuddles overnight with him. We used to live in a flat. So for the first year that Jura was born, I co slept and he ended up on the sofa, which was not ideal. And then when we moved, we moved into our house. And then he ended up having the bed to himself whilst I was with Jura. So he felt like he was getting the winning deal of a double bed on his own. And now we've got one of each. So I think I think he's quite happy. But so far by there's also been sleeping really well. She's actually been sleeping in between feeds. So we've not had to contend with big long night weeks. So I'm sure things will change. 

Emma Pickett  47:45

Yeah, and you haven't you haven't had lots of cluster feeding in the evenings. How's it been with the after when, when Jura gets back from school has it been?

Shona  47:54

She's been probably close to feeding but not not quite a good time, maybe sort of between eight and 10. She seems to have more of an unsettled moment, a bit windy and classifieds quite a lot. But overnight, so far, she's Yeah, she's been doing like two, three hour stretches. Actually sleeping and waking up for a quick feed. But I've been lucky with both of them actually, that they've both been quite efficient feeders. So they both only really feed for sort of 10 minutes at a time. Which also is a lot easier.

Emma Pickett  48:29

How are you managing bedtimes at the moment with Jura's bedtime?

Shona  48:33

So we will all do. He'll have a bath, normally with his dad, he actually has been really enjoying bathing her actually, that's been like, the highlight of his week from me saying we're gonna give her a bath. He's been really excited. So yeah, he'll have bath time with his dad. And then we'll all sit in the bed together and read a book. That's something that we always did. Me and my husband always tried when he's around to sit in bed together and do stories together. So he'll have one or two books with me. Me reading one and then his dad reading one. And then what we have been doing is we've been saying, Okay, now it's time for you to go to bed down putting her in her bed cycle. And then daddy takes her to bed. And then yeah, he plays the meditation and goes to sleep. I think he thinks that. And he thought it was with me as well, because I used to put him down and then I'd get up. He thinks that we stay there the whole time. He doesn't realise that we get up sometimes. We think that we've just been there all night. So but when he wakes up whether and then he'll come through in the morning, varying between 5.30 and 7.30. He'll come through and have a cuddle with me as well. And she's normally asleep at that time. So yeah, at the moment has been working well. But there will be bad times I'm going to have to do on my own.

Emma Pickett  49:54

If my husband's away, yeah. What are your plans for that?

Shona  49:58

I think just baby where she'll just be He's with me. He's he doesn't seem to be upset about her being there for stories or anything. Yeah, I don't feel too worried about that, really. And he's quite self sufficient in the bath that we'll probably we watch him, but he just gets empty bottles and builds towns around the side of the bath. And he has a little Lego figure that he calls poly Selda, I think came from, and she lives in various buildings that are built out of shampoo bottles. So he's quite happy doing that every night. Brilliant. We do actually try. He doesn't always do it. But we try and, and one thing we've started doing when we're all together is trying to say like something that we're happy about or grateful for during the day, as well as part of like it being time to go to bed. So if he's in a good mood, he says something. And if he's not in a good mood, she doesn't want to be grateful for anything. Yeah, profit has been piling up that time routine as well, which again, sounds very idealistic and happy. It's not always and there have been a lot of bad times in the last few weeks where he's got really unhappy and wanting time on his own. And yeah, got angry at me and dad. But once he's going to sleep is quite settled at the moment. 

Emma Pickett  51:15

Yeah. Good. Yes. I mean, yeah, we can have easy times and loving times and say beautiful things and still have tough times. Nobody has a 100% easy time when they have just four year old and a newborn. But yeah, it sounds like you've really know what you're doing. I have to say Shona, and I'm really happy that things are going so well. We're Veloz feeding. That's fantastic. Fantastic to hear. So if someone's listening to this, and they're pregnant, and they're experiencing a version, I think one of the things that inspires me and your story is that you can take your time, you don't have to move very quickly if you don't want to and counting down and restricting time, but still allowing a symbolic feed, I think is a really valuable tool. And I just I like the way you've just left yourself open to see what happened. We don't have to have all the answers, we don't have to know 100% How we're going to feel you can't predict how you're going to feel after birth when you're pregnant. So sometimes it is a good idea just to leave things open and to see what happens is just as you've done, and I think yeah, you've just you've described a really positive approach to that. And thank you very much for sharing your story today shown I really appreciate it.

Shona  52:20

No, I was just gonna say on the aversion as well, I think that's something that I felt quite guilty about when I used to get a version sort of around my cycle. I'd feel like oh, he's really upset if I don't feed him I really have to do and I could get you know, angry and shouted stop it. And actually setting a boundary and doing the countdown and saying, oh, no, it's it's it's hurting me or I don't want to do it right now is actually better than me getting frustrated at him.

Emma Pickett  52:46

So 100% If I could die on that on a cushion embroider on a cushion I would I people imagine that a child prefers a feed with a gritted teeth, you know, miserable looking parent who's clearly struggling. That is not necessarily the healthiest thing for a child and that it is healthier for you to say I'm sorry, my love. I can't right now. But we can do this instead. Yeah, I think that's that's really important to say that. Thank you for adding that.

Shona  53:11

You're welcome. And thanks so much. And thank you as well, because you really helped shape my journey, because I used basically all of your tools,

Emma Pickett  53:21

saying that your checks in the post. And I'll make sure I mention to Nahanda how much the meditation has helped. 

Shona  53:29

The Philippa Perry book as well. I'd already read that before, but I know you touch on a lot of what she says. And that was really the approach that I went with, sitting with the negative emotion actually made the the whole journey kind of easier and gentler.

Emma Pickett  53:45

Yeah, yeah, I do like that book. I think often when when parents have young children, we do not have time to read 50 different parenting books about different kinds of parenting styles. But that little Philippa Perry book just is a nugget of everything about being authentic and honest and communication and allowing sadness and creating a home where all emotions are welcome. I think that's yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I'll put a reference to that in the show notes much appreciated. Well, I will let you go and do more hanging out with valeur. And, and yeah, and good luck with when your husband goes back to work and you're on your own, but it sounds like they babywearing for the win for sure. That was my experience too. I did lots of solo bedtimes with when I had a newborn and a three and a half year old and babywearing absolutely saved my bacon that's for sure. 

Shona  54:30

Yeah, definitely. She's very chilled out at the moment, so we'll see if that changes.

Emma Pickett  54:36

Well this is the period where it gets tough and sort of third week mark so chilled out now you never know you might be lucky. So fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Thanks Shona.

Shona  54:47

Thank you so much. You too.

Emma Pickett  54:53

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.