Breastfeeding and medication, with Wendy Jones MBE

If you’ve been around breastfeeding support for any amount of time in the UK, you will have benefited from the work of my guest this week. There are few people who have made such an impact on the lives of breastfeeding families. Wendy Jones MBE is a founding member of the Breastfeeding Network (BfN). She ran the Drugs in Breastmilk helpline for many years and she is a respected author of many books and countless fact sheets on breastfeeding and medication.

It was a pleasure to have Wendy on the podcast to talk about all of these things, as well as contraception use in early breastfeeding, how she would advise dads/ partners and grannies to best support their loved ones, and breastfeeding and breast cancer.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

You can find more about Wendy at her website - https://breastfeeding-and-medication.co.uk/

And her books here https://breastfeeding-and-medication.co.uk/books

The Breastfeeding Network Drugs in Breastmilk service and the factsheets - https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/drugs-factsheets/

Advice and support for cancer during pregnancy and infancy - https://www.mummysstar.org/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Emma Pickett  00:00

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:47

Thank you very much for joining me today. I am going to be a bit of a nerd with one of my breastfeeding heroes today. And I'm really honoured that she's given me the time and lots of you will have seen Oh, Wendy, Wendy, it must be that Wendy and you're right. It is that Wendy! Wendy Jones, who's been a community pharmacist, I'm going to say for nearly 50 years is that are you comfortable with that, Wendy?

Wendy Jones  01:10

Yeah. When did I register? 1976. So very nearly

Emma Pickett  01:15

Not far off. So. So you're based in the UK and as I said, I guarantee if somebody is a breastfeeding supporter, or a lactation consultant in the UK, they will know Wendy. So she's Wendy, the lady who knows about drugs and breastfeeding. She's been absolutely instrumental to breastfeeding support in the UK and, and it's not an exaggeration to say she has changed the lives of countless families. All of us who've been doing this just for more than a year or so will know at least one person whose work she has affected and whose breastfeeding journey she has rescued. She's also Wendy the lady that writes books, when the the lady that talks about breastfeeding and chronic medical conditions. And she's written a lovely book about the roles of dads and partners and grandmas and grandparents. And she's also Wendy, the founding member of the breastfeeding network, which is one of the sort of leading organisations that supports breastfeeding in the UK. So I look forward to asking a little bit more about that. And she also founded the drugs in breast milk service, which is a core part of her work and probably what she's known for many years, she got the MBE and 2019 for services to mothers and babies. And a lot of that was about her work with the drugs and breast milk service. Thank you so much for joining me today. Wendy. I will try not to find girl too much. And you're allowed to tell me if I get irritating ever I could find girl about you. Say that. Thank you. So I've been reading your books, and I've had your books a long time on my shelves. I've got all your editions of breastfeeding and medication. But I've been reading all your more recent books as well. And your dedication is a very special because you talk about people in your life that have really made a difference. And people you're honoured to know. You talk about your son in law Christian and you talk about your mom and and in the dedication to your book breastfeeding and medication. You mentioned your mum, Peggy Mary Middleton great name, and how her support led you to this work. It might be a difficult question to answer. But how did she make a difference to your your work in this space and you're on your breastfeeding journey in your professional journey? 

Wendy Jones  03:13

I guess the main answer is that she just normalised breastfeeding. There was never any doubt in my mind that I was going to breastfeed. I remember being centres about an eight year old up to go and visit a neighbour who had just had a baby and was breastfeeding. And just watching. Yes, lovely baby. Yeah. I was eight years old. It didn't mean a lot. But I watched somebody breastfeeding. So when I had mine, that was just what I was going to do. But when I came home from hospital, this was in 1980. When you were advised to breastfeed for two minutes on each side on the first day, three minutes on the second day, four minutes up to a maximum of 10 and you were not allowed to breastfeed any more than every four hours. And in hospital we were given bottles of water sterilised water wasn't even glucose water it's just plain water to give to the baby after birth. So I came home with my newborn and thought this is what you do and and my mum looked at me as I'm sitting watching the clock and changing reg could what you're doing. We didn't do that. I just let you fake feed until it finished. And in typical kind of new mum star said well that's not the guidance down Mum, you have to be with it. You have to be know about the new stuff. This is how it's meant to be. But it was so hard because you know when new babies bob around and and are They latched then they've let go and then they've well, when do you time the two minutes from? When does the 10 Minute start? Well, they just started to feed really well. And she just encouraged me to do what felt right. And to follow my own instinct. And she was always there. And she gave me something that I've tried to replicate from my own daughters. And I wish I could make happen for everybody else in the world, which is, for two weeks, I didn't do any housework, any cooking, any washing, nothing. My job was just to look after my baby. And she was there to do everything else. And I wish that we could all have this sort of massive big hotel, where mums could choose what they wanted to eat, and everybody would look after them and kind of hold them and be there for them, and answer all the questions that they had. But that's what she did for me, and supported me all the way through encouraged me when I decided to train to become a breastfeeding supporter. I'm was always really proud of what I done. But always with a caveat is, are you sure you have enough time? Just look after yourself? Which maybe was the bit I didn't listen to too well,

Emma Pickett  06:01

Based on your work life balance and the last few decades? I'm not sure that's necessarily been your enormous strength. But well, we'll come to that later. I mean, anybody who makes makes breastfeeding work in under those circumstances, really has to have had a Peggy, because you cannot do the two minutes, three minutes, 10 minutes feeding every four hours. I mean, if your milk supply survives that if your breastfeeding relationship survives that that is luck. And that's probably going to be why breastfeeding rates were so incredibly low in the early 80s. I mean, that was probably the lowest in human history that we'd ever, ever had. Yeah, it's just bananas.

Wendy Jones  06:35

I was the only one in the ward that was breastfeeding. But the only positive was that on the four hours where they came around with a little bottles, every midwife was out there, providing support to all the new mums. You didn't have to ring for it. They were there. But I remember one afternoon I'd had my baby out and and I'd been showing her off to her dad, and she didn't go to sleep at four hours. And they said, Well, you have to give her a bottle. Because she needs to feed and why and honestly, you cuddling her. Baby. I did. I did kind of escape sooner than they wanted me to.

Emma Pickett  07:20

Yeah, escape is the word, isn't it? Well, I mean, we sort of think oh, you know, that business about not cuddling babies that that was sort of, you know, 1920s 1930s I mean, but still 1980 These are the messages that you're getting? Yikes. Yikes. Scary well, well done for listening to your instincts and, and fighting through. And I definitely support the idea of Peggy hotels, I think we should try to trademark that phrase. Now. The worldly. I know there are some really fancy hotels that do exist. I know. I read something about in Manhattan, there's this kind of postnatal Hotel, which you can check into. And it's it's sort of semi hospital, but also you can just hang out in the postnatal period. And I think Australia has some as well. So it's not it's not a brand new idea, but it's the only for the rich at the moment. So we definitely need piggy hotels to be for everyone's experience because not everyone is going to get that that family support. So I read on your website that the EU first updated a leaflet about drugs and breast milk in 1995. So we are definitely coming up to an anniversary. Now that's the 30th anniversary of your work in that field. Do you remember that first leaflet? What was it about? What that what happened in that early experience?

Wendy Jones  08:27

It's really funny because it came up on my Facebook memories, because I'd gone back to have a COVID vaccine in the pharmacy in which I'd written that leaflet and I'd gone back and found my old typewritten copy. And the way it was changed at the time. I was an NCT breastfeeding counsellors before BFN and I was asked to update a two page leaflet, an ad add in any other drugs that I wanted. And it was particularly to be aimed at Tower Hamlets where a lot of people were being given sleeping tablets, or they were being given sleeping tablets because you weren't meant to feed your baby overnight your baby was taken to the nursery. So to keep the mums quiet, they were giving sleeping tablets. And I worked to work in this pharmacy for two weeks and it was a homoeopathic pharmacy and nobody wanted to speak to me. I didn't know anything about homoeopathy. Very occasionally they wanted a bottle of paracetamol or something like that. And I just sat and I wrote for two weeks looking back the information that they had at that stage was minimal. And nothing existed there. There was no specific websites anywhere that I kind of just use common sense and thought about everything. And it turns into, I think it was something like 40 pages when I typed it up on my very old computer and even just looking at the font that was on it is just weird now. 

Emma Pickett  09:58

Yeah, so you couldn't even hold back to a leaflet that you've written over the years and your look and your fact sheets. I mean, you've written 1000s and 1000s of words equivalent of so many books and lots of it. It's on your website. And in fact sheets. I can't imagine how it felt sitting in there realising Oh, no, there's this thing. And then there's this thing. And am I right that you put your phone number at the bottom of that leaflet? Is that right? 

Wendy Jones  10:21

Yeah. So NCT, gave it out as a incentive for professionals to join NCT. And they gave it out free to them. And my home telephone number was put onto it, because I didn't think anybody would be interested. And I thought mere maybe one or two a year, something like that. And it it just went crazy. Absolutely crazy from the beginning. And healthcare professionals were sharing it with women as well. So we'd get women phoning up saying of this has happened, that's happened. I've got crap nipples, what cream should I put on? And they didn't care whether it was my husband or my daughters that were answering the phone? Oh, my goodness, it was at the beginning. This is it makes it feel so old, because it was the beginning of the internet. And it was dial up. So nobody else could phone in. If I was on the computer, say you'd then find that half a dozen people had found you in the evening and I'd been on the internet researching because I then started looking at it right doing a PhD. Because that's what you do when you're working full time. 

Emma Pickett  11:34

And that's what you do. You've gone down that rabbit hole, you might as well had someone acknowledging what you were doing and giving you a PhD for Absolutely. So what was the subject of your PhD? What was the title? 

Wendy Jones  11:44

Oh, it was such a riveting subtitle, community pharmacist support for lactating mothers requiring medication during lactation? 

Emma Pickett  11:53

Well, that's the nub of the thing. Really nothing wrong with that. That's the absolute heart of it in the heart of what you've been doing. Before you we talk a bit more about your drugs and breast milk work. I'd love to hear a bit more about how the breastfeeding network started. And it when you look at the history of all the different organisations in the UK, we've got to get the ABM splitting away from the lecture league in a in a very anti American sort of, we want a British version. So we're going to create the ABM blessing. And so what happened with the breastfeeding network? Was there something going on with the NCT? That didn't feel quite right. I mean, I don't want to say anything that feels uncomfortable. But how did the breastfeeding network start?

Wendy Jones  12:31

So at that time, they were looking for sponsorship because all organisations need money. But they were looking to take some sponsorship from Sainsbury's who at that time made their own brand of formula milk. And it felt that as a breastfeeding counsellor, you were kind of a bit stuck between these are nice people who are giving us money. So we ought to have adverts for it. And will that happen? No. We want to be independent. We want to provide evidence based information. We're about supporting breastfeeding. And there were lots of arguments that went on to highest levels. And then Mary Broadfoot, and Phil Buchanan, largely came up with the idea of starting a new organisation to be completely independent of anything to do with a product that might breach the who code. And some funding was arranged. And a few meetings went on that were there were lots of very angry voices raised. And I remember being at the final one where there was a vote who wants to leave, NCT on this brand and I stood up and it was rather difficult because at that time, one of my trainees actually was on the Board of Trustees.

Emma Pickett  13:57

Wow, well, thank you for doing that. And thank you for standing up because the BFN has now gone from strength to strength and I'm pretty sure you You are the the organisation with the largest turnover in terms of financial work and the largest number employees and, you know, obviously the NCT do work around birth and antenatal education as well. But the BfN has absolutely gone from strength to strength. I mean, you have commissioned services throughout the UK and, and you're already you're always strong on that, that non commercial, you know, not having a commercial bias. The ethics of the BfN is always so, so strong. And for a large organisation that's not always easy to pull off because you know, money comes from lots of different complex places, but it's something you've always absolutely had the core of your work so that makes sense. I didn't know that even though I've been involved in this game for for 20 odd years. I didn't know that so that is that makes a lot of sense. Because you know, I don't know Phil very well, but I know Phil is a very ethical person and and in Marian, okay, that so adds up and ticks all the boxes. So, so that so that from then on you Train your own counsellors, you set up your own training system, not easy to get all that from scratch, that's a lot of work to set all that up. 

Wendy Jones  15:08

And a lot of people were working on a voluntary basis as most of us in breastfeeding still do. And you know, there, there are different places for all the different organisations, we may be all slightly different. But we're like the the legs of a stool or propping each other up with this central core of the mother at the beginning at the centre of it. But yes, the training system was set up. And just very gradually it grew and grew and grew. But one of the very first things that they did was to allow me a separate telephone line into my house to answer the drug line questions. Because by that time, my kids were teenagers, and they kind of were getting a bit fed up. But it was just literally an extra telephone line. But that had in itself a cost implication. And I remember sending data by fax. I feel like a dinosaur when I think back to that.

Emma Pickett  16:04

Well, I feel like a bit of a dinosaur when we think of 1995 being so incredibly long time ago. So you are now still answering calls in your home. You are now so new. You were the drugs in breast milk service for many, many, many, many years. The only person answering calls the only plants person answering emails, I don't know how you manage to have a work life balance and how you manage to kind of protect yourself because there are so many desperate calls coming in. I mean, there are it's you know, urgent, urgent, urgent every single time there aren't many people who are just in a very relaxed, chilled way asking about whether they're breastfeeding experience has to end. Are there any stories that particularly stick in your mind? I know we've got issues about permission to share not necessarily been the case. But are there any particular stories or regular themes that are coming up that really stick in your mind from those early days,

Wendy Jones  16:50

I remember one where a lady had been admitted to hospital and she had cancer of her tongue. A very beautiful young lady who had a small baby. I knew this was quite life threatening and was trying to make plans to keep her baby safe. So she'd arranged for another counsellor to go into the hospital to express her milk for her while she was in intensive care. So literally, she was going to be unconscious, this person would go and express the milk and give it to her husband to feed the baby. But it felt like every time we checked out the drugs, they change something. So it was over a bank holiday weekend. And the supporter who was going in the husband and I would pretty much on speed dial or weekend checking it out. And then she sent me a picture of her sitting up in bed, still in intensive care with all the tubes drips paraphernalia around her butt feeding her baby. And I sat and I cried. But I cried even more because about maybe about seven or eight years later, I went to a study day, and she was there. And she was speaking about her experiences. And they had been able to reconstruct her tongue she was speaking completely normally. And she'd fed her baby for as long as she wanted. I think he was into toddlerhood before she weaned. I'm getting goose pimples, just thinking about that, being able to empower somebody who was in that dark, dark place. And struggling so hard to do the best for her baby. And coming out of the other side.

Emma Pickett  18:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you do meet people when they are absolutely at their toughest time. I mean, when they are, you know, very much struggling to survive literally. And they know and breastfeeding is the one thing they want to be able to hang on to and and, you know, one of your jobs is to, to help that happen wherever possible. And it's such a massive responsibility and privilege it Yeah, Privilege is the right word. It is a privilege. And an it's an honour. And I know I could never say thank you to you enough. Wendy. I can. I've literally got pictures in my head right now of 20 people who I know you've saved the breastfeeding experience of and you must have people coming up to in crying study days and conferences. I don't know how you get through the room when you're walking from one side of the conference to the other because there's just so many lives that you have touched. One of the things that I'm curious about is how you manage to hold on to the positives when occasionally you're coming up against ignorance, or stupidity or barriers that really shouldn't exist, whether it's under funding in the NHS, whether it's an actual individual consciously preventing someone breastfeeding or unconsciously. And to keep those sorts of that sort of positive attitude must be quite tough at times.

Wendy Jones  19:45

I do moan to my family a lot. They have learned as much about breastfeeding by listening to me, Can we get off the phone? But what I'm always trying to do is to give the woman information that she can take back to her Professional, and I put a Facebook page recently saying your clinicians job is to treat you not to comment on your breastfeeding. If you want to be breastfeeding a six year old, that's your business, that's not their business. But actually looking back to when I, I sat in that pharmacy writing that leaflet, with no information at all, on now very gradually, but continuously, everything is changing. So having professional organisations now replicating a lot of the work, changing of the curriculum for doctors and pharmacists, it's all changed so much in that 30 years, and women through social media are able to empower each other as well. You go on any of the social media sites, and people will say, go check this out. I did this call this number. So that empowerment of women has been quite progressive. I guess if there's nothing to fight against, you run out of energy, in a strange kind of way that works in my head. 

Emma Pickett  21:12

I like that it's a bit like when you're doing sort of not that I'm a gym person, but you've got to push against something to get the muscles to work, haven't you?

Wendy Jones  21:19

Like Amy Brown doing her runs? 

Emma Pickett  21:23

Yeah, I'm saying that Amy Brown during her runs, she's doing so much running at the moment. So amazing. I'm guessing there are times when you've, you've come up against some of that ignorance. And you've said, or I'm not going to let that happen again, um, and you open your computer and you write a fact sheet. And I mean, I love what you said about social media just then, because we so often bash the internet and we bash social media. But in this space, it has absolutely transformed parents abilities to get access to information and or your fact sheets have been so instrumental. I mean, if you look at the list of all the different ones on the BfN, website, woof, and then you've got whole more whole tonne more on your website, and in your books, which were the hardest fact sheets to write and the ones that particularly stick in your mind as the ones that were really difficult. 

Wendy Jones  22:06

In some ways, the most difficult one was pain. Because that came about where a woman was left in pain, incredible pain one weekend, because they just kept saying to her, you can't have any pain medication, if you insist on breastfeeding. And that, to me was like a red rag to a bull. And that became a fact sheet very, very quickly. But there were also ones that came out of our own family's experiences. So writing ones about miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy, because I knew other people were going through the same situation. And I could bring a different viewpoint to that. But still, you know, sticking with the evidence. But in all the fact sheets I tried to get a bit of me in it's what I I feel or you know this suddenly there's loads of questions. So I'd like the cocaine factsheet. All of a sudden, every Monday morning, there'd be somebody saying, I did three lines of cocaine on Saturday night, when can I breastfeed my baby again? And and from my elderly standpoint, God, what the heck are you doing going out doing lines of cocaine, when you've got a new baby at home, and whatever is in your head, but then accepting, that's their lives, that's their friends. That's their lifestyle. They are calling because they want to keep their baby safe.

Emma Pickett  23:37

Yeah, it's the ones not calling that we have to worry about one of my favourite Fact Sheets is your contraception fact sheet. I think one of the things that I like about your factories is we can see your voice there. And actually, we need to know I'm, I'm Wendy, I'm a pharmacist, I'm, you know, a PhD in this space. This is the evidence, but actually, this is also what I think and you're taking that into account, too, is not inappropriate. In fact, it's it's very, very appropriate. And there is there's so much contradictory information out there about contraception, and I've had clients who are absolutely 100% certain that taking the progesterone only pill, you know, killed their milk supply, for example. And that is not what their GP told them. It's not what their gynaecologist has told them was going to happen. It's not what the official guidance says. And your factsheet is one of the places which says, honestly, this does seem to be an experience for some people. I can't necessarily point to a massive RCT that tells you what's happening, but this is this is what we're finding out. So, you know, please fill out this yellow card and let's collect the evidence together. What is going on with contraception and breastfeeding? Why are there so many doctors getting the information that hormonal contraception does not affect breastfeeding? 

Wendy Jones  24:45

I think it's come from the drive to prevent unplanned pregnancies. And although we can say that for most people, it doesn't affect their supply and everything is fine series. Just this minority, but there's no trials showing that it's there is no risk. So I'm saying there's there's no evidence that there isn't risk. But equally, there's no evidence that it is. So if we're giving somebody a depo injection, whilst they're still in hospital, have we been able to reassure them, without any shadow of doubt that there will be no impact on their milk supply. And this feeling that everybody is going to go and be having rampant sex before they're six weeks postpartum without a thought for contraception, or that everybody is ovulating. At that stage? We don't know all of these things. So when it becomes a protocol for hospitals to offer this, it sounds like a great idea. Because it's a one stop service. Brilliant, it stops you then having to find a time to go to see the GP and get there. But it's in a hole of of evidence. So we're not giving people the proper choices. And I think everything you should be about your choice based on best evidence. And that's missing. So there have been several people saying this is going to be our policy. Okay, if you're going to do it, could you please check in with the mothers? Six weeks or three months later? Are they still breastfeeding? If not, why not? was was that by choice? Or was that because their milk supply tanked? Everybody seems to find that too difficult to do. Yep. Yep. It's time consuming, but it's really important.

Emma Pickett  26:45

Yeah, I mean, I'm confused about the science of it. If you're giving someone a depo injection, you know, immediately postpartum isn't that the hormonal equivalent of having resigned, retained placental tissue, I mean, you know, we know that a tiny fragment, you know, the size of a temporary piece can pump out enough progesterone to stop people's milk coming in and to stop their lactation developing. So I don't understand how it can make sense to give somebody progesterone in that exact same environment and expect milk supply, not to be impacted on you know, I'm genuinely confused. 

Wendy Jones  27:17

Yeah. And everywhere you go, when I wherever I've spoken, somebody's come up to me and said, I've seen that happen as well. Now, every lactation consultant, breastfeeding supporter breastfeeding advocate across the world in wherever I've spoken. Can't be wrong. Yeah. If we're all seeing it, it exists. It's not just fake anecdote. 

Emma Pickett  27:42

Yeah. And all the pharmacists that work in your space. I mean, Thomas Hale, everybody says, There's not one person saying, Oh, no, I agree with the, you know, every week, we'll start combining hormonal contraceptive pills in three weeks or two weeks. I mean, no one is saying that that's universally a good idea. But yet, we've got these big organisations that are promoting contraception and not listening. And one of the research one of the bits of research that I've read, and I can't remember who it was said, Oh, yes, there's no impact on infant growth, if someone takes contraception and like, but hang on, as you say, you know, let's talk to the parent about what their breastfeeding experience is, I mean, they could be feeding every 40 minutes for a 24 hour period they could have their baby may suddenly have been waking up through the night, they may have been using breast compressions and two sides. And, you know, their life may have been completely changed by what has to happen to their breastfeeding experience. You can't just look at growth as a measurement of their not being an impact. Yeah, I guess, misogyny, it comes down to misogyny so much of this, doesn't it? Who's paying for the research? Yeah, who cares? It's not important enough breastfeeding, a thing that some women like to do. So therefore, you know, what, why is it worth pouring money in? 

Wendy Jones  28:50

It's not important, but it's important to that mum, who may grieve for a very long time that this happened, and be very angry that she was given the wrong information. And it's, it's the bit about not listening.

Emma Pickett  29:04

Yeah. I mean, is it possible to get a bit kind of cynical and think there's money here? I mean, if someone's taking a contraceptive pill, you know, X number of months or years before they may otherwise, is that just more money for a company? 

Wendy Jones  29:16

I think it comes down to this, this idea that unplanned pregnancies, particularly in young women, is difficult, but we have the morning after pill. We give women chances. But the crazy thing is a lot of doctors will say I can't prescribe this to you because it's not licenced. So the manufacturer say you can't use it. But the manufacturer say these pills shouldn't be used under six weeks. But all of a sudden we can override that bit. And that's okay. Well, can we have some consistency here? Can we just have the evidence and can we do it even if it's only on small scales? Most drugs in breast milk studies involve about 30 people at most. And I did send, I collected some data from my facebook page from people said, yes, the supply had tanked. It had stopped overnight. But I then stopped the contraception. And I sent this off, and it was never even acknowledged. Who you sending that to? That's a question I maybe don't want to answer. Okay. Sorry. Okay. No, fair enough.

Emma Pickett  30:28

Somebody who should have been interested. should read it. And they weren't even even acknowledging receipt.

Wendy Jones  30:34

No, they they are. It's somebody who doesn't think the breastfeeding is important. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  30:41

Yes. Whereas one thing you know, from your 50 odd years is that breastfeeding is very important to many people. And we just need someone to acknowledge that and, and the best doctors are the worst in the world are the ones who say, I'm not sure that I can see that breastfeeding matters to you. So I'm going to go and find out about this. I'm going to go and get some more information. I'm going to talk to some people who do know, I mean, you as I said, You've spent so many years helping breastfeeding families and and so many of your years were spent taking calls at home and taking calls on holiday and emailing people on holiday. Just some advice for somebody who is in the breastfeeding support world. How do you prevent burnout in the age of home working? Let's hear the expert you know, someone who's been home working for a very long time. What were you doing, to be able to care for your family and look after teenagers and older children and not burnout? What were your tricks? Have you anything you can share with people who are doing this work at home?

Wendy Jones  31:35

I think you need to ask my children that. One of my daughters when I finally retired from BfN, and passed the drug line on to a group of other pharmacist was that, thank heavens, now you're with us. Because up until now, you've always had one eye on your phone. And that really hurt. Because I thought, is that true? And then I realised I wasn't big events and things. I was half listening. But in my head was this idea that everybody asking the question could be my daughter, who wanted that information, and needed it now. And there were a few that could be left until later. But the first day I took off was for my 60th birthday. I put an out of office email on. And the second one was the day I went to intercostals to get your MBA. Yes. And up until then I had answered at least one question every day. But they've kind of need to take some time to do the things that are important. My daughter was showed me a book the other day, and the beginning of it was what animal do you think represents you? And the answer was an ant. Because an answer was busy and you're running around and you're doing something and you're you're lifting tremendous weights, and you never sit still. And the next question was, what animal would you like to be? And the answer was, I want to be a lion who lies there patiently and what stalks their prey, but is in a hurry and chooses the right moment to act. And that hit home really hard because I thought I actually don't know how to do nothing. I will go away and read a book. But my phone is never off my person. I check it regularly. And when Amy was evaluating the drug line, she was saying, Well, should we ask the question about how soon were you responded to. And we'll set the lower limit at 20 minutes, and I thought 20 minutes to respond. Now I never leave it that long. And that's that's insane. So absolutely insane. Because most people would not have had the incredibly patient husband, who not only lets me do this, but helps me write the books helps me buy the new computer for every book that I need to write, et cetera, and, and my kids that have taken on breastfeeding as being as important to them as it is to me such that two of them actually trained to be breastfeeding helpers themselves. That's really special. And the third is is doing something different to support so but I would tell them not to do what I do. That's what I say. 

Emma Pickett  34:53

So your lesson on on balance is you didn't manage to achieve it yourself and and you luckily get away with it because you have a lot really supportive family that, that were there with you and helping you out. But no, everybody wouldn't necessarily make it work. Yeah, I think it says a lot that you were replaced by a team. And I'm sure I'm not the first person to say that you were replaced by a router of people who, who now the trained pharmacists who now run the drugs in breast milk helpline, which is not a phone line anymore. It's now in the age of social media and email, people message their Facebook page, or they or they email, the address that's on the breastfeeding Network website. I think that says a lot.

Wendy Jones  35:28

Yeah, I must just take a moment to say thank you to a BfN helper called Ruth, who actually used to give me one day a week off. She was a helper. She wasn't a pharmacist. She worked in microbiology, but was very good at signposting to correct information and to just listening and being there to women and referring them back to me if she couldn't answer the question. Without that few hours off on a Friday, I probably would be even more insane than I probably already have.

Emma Pickett  36:05

Thank you to Ruth. Yes. I mean, you've written so much information out there with the fact sheets I'm sure a lot of her work was just signposting to your own words anyway. So it was still a Wendy Wendy helpline but just Ruth Ruth facilitating it. 

Emma Pickett  36:19

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  37:07

Okay, so I'm gonna ask you a super difficult question. Before we move on to talk about some of your other work. You talked about education and I know that there are more pharmacy courses that are now looking at lactation I was speaking to Laura Kearney from the SPS he was talking about Aston University doing a course and in lactation. And there's more and more of it's happening, but we'd still have GPS doctors, paediatricians going out to work, who don't necessarily have the full information that we'd want them to have about drugs and breast milk. If you had 30 minutes to speak to every single doctor, or let's say every health professional in the UK, what would you want to cover in those 30 minutes? Or would it be about lactation and Afghan medication? Or would you want to say something more generally about breastfeeding? What would you want to do in those 30 minutes?

Wendy Jones  37:53

You actually got the chance to record a session. It took me a long time to think out what was the most important thing that I wanted to say. And it started out with why breast milk is so special, that if it had to be invented, no people would get Nobel Prize winning thought health and for finance, as well, because of how much cost saving and to instil that kind of the magic that we know, breast milk is, and that it's important to listen, even for a second to acknowledge that a want for a woman in sitting in front of them sat breastfeeding is important to them. Because we don't know where on their breastfeeding journey they are. They could have had to struggle for weeks and weeks and weeks to establish their milk supply. They may have gone through sore nipples, tongue tie, whatever. But that's been a journey for them. But meanwhile, the information that they have in front of them on their computer in the BNF, the standard reference sources or maybe what they learned at university may have been superseded, and that drug manufacturers, when they say should not be used in breastfeeding doesn't mean that they've got information on file that says in clinical trials, this drug was caused x y&z had side effects. They didn't do the clinical trials because it would be unethical to do so. Anybody's newborn baby, we wouldn't be wanting to expose them to an untested drug, but we can look at the way the drug acts in the body. And we can use specialist sources people who, whose life work like Tom Hale, who's whose life's work is to understand how drugs get into breast milk and that there is information and they can use some common sense. So if a drug has to be given by injection and is not available as a tablet because it can't be absorbed orally, doesn't matter how much gets into breast milk, the baby can't absorb it. So all the contrast media's for, for colonoscopy, something that's so basic and so common sense, even if they started from there. And that anything that is licenced for a child is going to be saved, because the amount that gets through breast milk will be less than the amount that a child could be given directly. Those two facts alone, solve a lot of issues. But just there is very rarely a time when you have to be scribe at this instant. And I used to run clinics in a GP surgery on prevention of cardiovascular disease, and evolved obesity and smoking cessation, I had 20 minutes in order to listen to people. Most GPs have eight minutes maximum, and it's probably even less now. So to welcome somebody listen to what's wrong, look at the computer to see if they're on any other medications or anything else is relevant. Make a prescribing decision, and get them back out the door in six minutes is a tremendous obstacle. But there is nothing to say, Can I call you later? I need to go and do some research, just as you might call a specialist. For more information about a patient, it doesn't have to be now later is probably okay. And if there's any doubt, send them to somebody who was a breastfeeding expert, you know, if it's low milk supply, clip or something else you don't know about. Use this other specialists there to around you. But above all, just listen and value that mother's experience. Which will take me quite a lot. 

Emma Pickett  42:02

I know that was that wasn't even 10 minutes. We can do three, three more like that. Fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I love that message about the common sense stuff. You don't have to do a D in detailed module about lactation or medication to know that if a baby can be prescribed that drug, it's going to be fine for the mother to have that drug. It just seems so obvious, doesn't it. But it's just important to point that out. I think that's really valuable. I think one of the things that I've come to think about in this space, and I'm doing a lot of work at the moment about ending breastfeeding, and I'm writing about weaning, is that I think when a when a doctor says to her Mum, I'm just going to need you to take 24 hours off breastfeeding or, you know, let's to be on the safe side, let's not breastfeed for three or four days to not realise how very difficult that is, if somebody's mothering at breastfeeding two year old or a three year old, they literally cannot take time off breastfeeding. Yeah, it is physically impossible. I mean, not least nutritionally, not everyone takes bottles, no one takes milk from cups, but emotionally and psychologically what that does to that family. So if I can take two minutes of your 30 minutes, I would just say don't assume that anything breastfeeding is possible or taking a break from breastfeeding as possible. 

Wendy Jones  43:07

Breast milk is not a tap. And if you tell a mum to to stop, you actually may be causing harm by mastitis etc. And everybody's going to have such a hard time. So yeah, that's, that's really an important message too. 

Emma Pickett  43:24

Yeah, one of your other books that I love is the one about dads and grandmas, and how important dads and grandmas are to the breastfeeding journey. And obviously, we're talking about partners, not just dads, and we're talking about grandparents, not just grandma's. But that title would be 50 words long if we were gonna put everybody in that title. What led you to write that book, tell me a bit more about the background to that book.

Wendy Jones  43:44

So it started when I was in America with my daughter. And she was about to have her first baby. So this is my eldest daughter, this has kind of been my first grandchild. And obviously I desperately want breastfeeding to go well. And it's about the journey that we took, because I couldn't always make it happen. For the first few days, breastfeeding wasn't pain free for her. And how did that make me feel? So it was kind of taking a magnifying glass to what was going on for me what was going on for her what was going on with her husband and the journey that we went on from then onwards. It also became incredibly important to me later on as a tribute to my son in law who sadly died when the baby was three and a half months old, in very tragic circumstances. But the support that she was given in the hospital so she was allowed to have a baby in the hospital throughout. And how, what a difference that made. Now I actually had him in the family room most of the time I was walking around with him in a sling and go into the shops. Americans could not understand me because I had a sling. And I was walking and doing the shopping. That's very weird. 

Emma Pickett  45:10

Can I just pause for a moment when this when you talk about in the in the hospital you're talking about when when your son in law was dying, though, so rather than when your daughter was in hospital, so yes, your son Son in law was dying. And as you say it was very quick, and I'm so sorry that you all had that experience. And and he just sounds like such a lovely bloke, we the way you write about him, he just sounds so lovely. And, and but the way he was they very much welcomed her and the baby to be there as well. So they were able to be together as a family. And you mentioned that, that she was able to breastfeed that, you know, her milk supply wasn't affected by stress, or you know, she didn't stop producing milk throughout the what must have been the toughest time that anyone can go through that breastfeeding was a gift to her is that fair to say it was something that really gave her some value,

Wendy Jones  45:54

it was very much a gift. It also gave oxytocin to all of us. So I've used one of the pictures in quite a lot of of the presentations, which is is in the book. Because when the room is full of love, and you add breastfeeding in, it becomes a place of calm and tranquillity for that time. And you know, sometimes there would have been people coming in to administer injections and things. But just for those few minutes, it just calmed everybody down and grounded everybody, and was quite magical. But there were times when the baby was first born when Christian drove me to distraction, because whatever I say he'd go away and Google it. Are you sure that's right. But what if I kind of wanted to read the write the book that was the Google no nonsense bit book of breastfeeding for partners? And yes, it's the title isn't the correct title. But it was about Christians and my journey as supporters of her in her breastfeeding journey. So I did think about one time about rewriting it. But my heart wouldn't spin in it in the same way.

Emma Pickett  47:14

I think, you know, obviously, we know there's lots of conversations about inclusive language at the moment. But as you say, that was your story and Christian story. And therefore that title absolutely makes perfect sense. And, you know, it's part of it is a tribute to him. So that that word dad is the word that obviously describes him. And yeah, it's a, you know, a special book, and it's, yeah, thank you, thank you for writing it and sharing that and being so open about your own experiences and your family's experiences. Being a granny now is not easy, because the world has changed so much. And you know, there are grannies aren't necessarily super confident about Instagram and social media. And you describe that giving birth in 1980. I'm trying to work out the maths here, I get lots and lots of people who gave birth in 1980 will be brutal seeing a newborn being born today from their own child, but we certainly got people born in the 80s. Who are I mean, what do you say to grannies about how the world changed? I mean, in the 90s, there was still some people being told to feed for two minutes and four minutes and 10 minutes. But I mean, there's such a transformation in the messaging people get now about, you know, responsive feeding. And what do you say to grannies about how to be the great granny alongside breastfeeding, 

Wendy Jones  48:23

I keep coming back to just listen and value and be there. And you can have a conversation about what it was like for you. Because actually, your experience is valuable if you successfully breastfed if you are starting from a point of view where breastfeeding didn't work for me and I don't get why you're breastfeeding, then you're in a very different different position because your first go to in every stage then was but surely if you give a bottle so perhaps the most important thing is to go to a text that you and the mum trust and work through it together. But it's it's very difficult. The same as it's difficult for GPS and pharmacists who haven't breastfed they don't get this is maybe the only way that the child goes to sleep. This is how it a toddler gets over falling over and hurting themselves. It's about so much more than Belk. But it's it's kind of not contradicting what is important to them.

Emma Pickett  49:33

Yeah, and giving that space to listen, I think that's that's, that's really important. I think one of the things you said a moment ago about people who haven't breastfed, I think, you know, you can read Amy Brown's book about breastfeeding grief and trauma and, you know, see that 30 years later people are holding on to the grief and trauma of not having breastfed and perhaps even more scarily, the people who are who are but don't know that they are. So they I don't know if you did you read a book called breast intentions that came out probably 1010 years ago. It was a book by somebody that it was quite, it's quite controversial. It's quite a tough read, because it basically talks about how some people are sabotaging the breastfeeding journeys of others, and often not realising that they are because they're looking to have their own experiences validated. And when they see someone else, successfully breastfeeding or responsibly breastfeeding, there's some deep stuff going on that they haven't necessarily come to terms with. And you know, some of their pushing away and invalidating and being difficult is really just about unprocessed trauma. So I guess if there is a granny listening to this who's struggling with breastfeeding, maybe sometimes we might need to take a bit of space to think about our own experiences and get some help to process what we've gone through if we're really struggling. Yeah, moms I talked to who are breastfeeding, older children particularly running up against, I think traumatised grannies who had saying, Why you breastfeeding a two year old? Because every day you breastfeed your two year old, you're essentially saying I didn't parent you right? Might your mom, my parenting choices weren't the choices you would have made. It's gets, you know, as deep stuff

Wendy Jones  51:02

It is. But there's no reason that they can't actually reach out and ask somebody to listen to them. I'm sure you you have had grandmas that I've talked to you. I've certainly had emails from mums from grandma saying, I don't understand this. But it's very true about medication because well, if you're taking an antidepressant will surely that's bad for the baby, because you're going to affect the baby's brain. And that can come from, from Grandma's to. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  51:34

Yeah, lots of work to always be done. When we live in a world where not everyone gets to meet their breastfeeding goals and their feeding goals. Talking about dads and partners for a minute. You met you mentioned that you thought Christian had kind of the need for that kind of factual information. Where's the answer? Let me find the answer. And, and so much of breastfeeding and lactation doesn't have those answers, because it's very kind of individual and responsive. I mean, what do you think would be included in the kind of magic antenatal class for for dads and partners?

Wendy Jones  52:02

That's probably the most difficult question yet. Because I think you almost need to hear where they're coming from and what their views are, and address those. But again, it's like the GPS and pharmacists, the professionals, inspiring them of how magical breast milk is the fact that it changes from day to day from week to week, whether you've got an infection or not, how quickly it responds. The fact that it helps to heal wounds, and also about things like obesity, all of these things that we know, but it has to be in bite sized chunks that they can take in. And one of the activities I've always liked doing is having the clock of what do you think your life with a newborn baby is going to be like? Now I remember when I had my first daughter, I bought a tapestry. And I had a vision that every afternoon I was going to sit during this tapestry in the corner like a little Victorian lady.

Emma Pickett  53:10

And while you're while your baby slept in their lace next to you

Wendy Jones  53:16

you know I had this beautiful moses basket in the court was upstairs. I could sell the court is actually brand new, nobody's ever stepped in it. But of course, it's not like that. But setting up that expectation that babies don't have the rulebook. And you need to be there to be alongside them wherever they are, but also that you need to be alongside your partner. What upsets me most is on some of the social media pages you see people saying my partner is now against me breastfeeding because the baby is too and he can't settle her. But parenting isn't just about feeding. Parenting is about reading a story. It's about rocking a baby. It's about birthing it's about changing nappies. It's about singing. I don't care how well or badly you sing. Babies love to be sung to. And dads can have a very special if different time to the mums. By having that. My second daughter's husband had some very special special song by Ed Sheeran and I can't for the life of me remember what it is at this moment. But they were at Glastonbury and they heard Ed Sheeran singing this song and how moving that was because they live nearby. They get Glastonbury tickets because they go and help out there. And her child just snuggling into daddy whilst this song was sung because this was her safe place with daddy. And it doesn't have to be at the Breast it doesn't have to be at the end of a bottle. It's just about being there.

Emma Pickett  55:04

Oh, that's that's a lovely image. Yeah, I mean that thing about the dad saying, you know, you're breastfeeding is a barrier to me connecting, I think I sometimes say to mums, let's take a step back for a moment. And imagine what it must be like to be, you know, a dad or a partner who's not part of the breastfeeding world, they'd probably not on breastfeeding support groups on social media, they don't see it being talked about every day. They don't know other people doing it, they've got thrown back to work, you know, week four, or let's imagine they've not really experienced what that's like. And for them, it's they've still got all that cultural noise about breastfeeding beyond infancy being weird. I think we need a moment of empathy, to say that that that comment is coming from a place of being frightened, not understanding how to be a dad, and he's struggling to work out how to connect. But I'm sure everyone can say that de skilling, the breastfeeding parent in order to upskill, the parent that isn't breastfeeding makes zero sense. Apps, you have to spend just 10 minutes learning about, you know, alpha lactalbumin, and killing cancer cells and antibodies. And why would you remove breast milk from a child in order to improve what the other parent does is? Sometimes it's a bit like, imagine if your husband was brilliant at sport. And you wouldn't say to them, You know what, I'm sorry, but I'm going to need you to stop playing football with them. Because I can't play football. And it makes me feel a bit rubbish as a parent, and I want to be able to do sport with them. So can you just not do football with them anymore? Did you ever dream of de skillings have another parent in that situation? But because we don't get breastfeeding? We are infancy that is still a conversation that sadly happens. And and it's lovely to hear you talk about, you know, breastfeeding beyond infancy. And the value of that and the significance of that. Because, you know, when someone's sitting in front of a GP, and they're saying, Well, what do you mean, you don't want to start this medication? Your child is four years old? What's the problem? We need those people to be listened to as well and understood as well. And, and you're you're really good at doing that. Thank you. Thank you, on behalf of the natural don't breastfeed is for your contribution. 

Wendy Jones  57:00

That's all right, I'm part of them.

Emma Pickett  57:02

I know I know you are. And it's much, much appreciated. You're such a gem. And that's so sad. I know. That's a cheesy thing to say. But gosh, we're so lucky to have you. I'm so glad you're not Finnish or something. Because you live in the UK, although we would have translated your factsheets from Finnish if you were finished. But I'm, we're very glad to have you in the UK. So you're not answering calls on the helpline anymore. But I know you're you are still sometimes working in this space. And what is it that you're doing day to day? And what do you want to do in the next kind of few years? Do you ever retire? Is that a word you ever use?

Wendy Jones  57:34

I did swear that on my 70th birthday, I was going to stop doing everything. That was three months ago. I didn't stop. I can't imagine my life without breastfeeding and breastfeeding support. So I will continue to write Fact Sheets loiter on social media groups. And I still get questions every day, perhaps of the more complicated once. But I also answer questions from outside of the UK, which is something the breastfeeding network aren't able to do. So that's, that's really interesting, because you've got somebody and one week I had somebody from Tanzania, Brazil, and Finland in one week. But basically it was we just had to find that what the drugs were. And it was the very same experience. But there is still another breastfeeding book in the process. But it's been taking me an awful long time, because it's kind of trying to put everything together in a more accessible term that maybe Haley is But relying on his resources. But I've moved into writing a book about breast cancer. Because very sadly, my daughter has been diagnosed with breast cancer, despite having breastfed for seven years. So I'm desperately trying to make sure everybody still checks their breasts and doesn't think that breastfeeding prevents breast cancer. It only protects it and lowers the risk.

Emma Pickett  59:09

Yeah, that's such an important message. Yeah. That's going to be a really important book because people who are diagnosed with breast cancer especially if they've breastfed can feel very alone and very angry and very isolated. And yeah, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. And I, I know what amazing support you must be for her. But that that book is going to support many, many people when it when it does happen. Yeah, I mean, there was a bit of research that just came out. The Lancet Commission literally just came out a few days before we're speaking now and on all the discussion about it online has been really interesting to see. I mean, I put a post up which just had some quotes from the times. And people were really angry that I was suggesting that that breastfeeding reduced risk. They didn't even want to hear that because so many people aren't getting the breastfeeding support they need and they're just furious that being told that they that may then have increased their risk of getting breast cancer We're in a difficult space talking about anything to do with with breastfeeding and breast cancer. And I'm sorry to hear about, about your daughter. So that book will be aimed at the mothers themselves and the parents who are getting cancer. Is that the plan? Yeah. Rather than medical professionals? 

Wendy Jones  1:00:16

Yeah, it won't be. It won't be for medical professionals. It's about the journey that we're going through the hiccups and trials that are on their way to kind of when things went wrong, it was difficult to know where to find the information. So this is kind of trying to put all the information into one place and promote charities like mummy star who can imagine, yeah, who are amazing at supporting moms who get cancer, either in pregnancy, or during the first year of their life. And you very generously donated to their fund when I wanted to celebrate my 70th birthday by doing something positive!

Emma Pickett  1:00:59

Well trust you to use your birthday as a way to promote cancer charity, rather than, you know, get your vouchers to go to the garden centre. I mean, mummy star is such a special organisation and understanding that they have finite resources. So they focus on that pregnancy and first 12 months. Is there anything that does support people after those first 12 months? I mean, if your feet breastfeeding, an 18 month old and you get diagnosed with cancer, are you then looking at Macmillan, I mean, what's supporting you then at that point?

Wendy Jones  1:01:25

So the information is on Melanson, cancer UK, but mummy star will try to do the best they can with the resources that they've got. But I'm hoping that by producing the book, the answers that you're looking for are there. So for instance, one of the obvious things was when you get chemotherapy, you get an anti sickness drug with it to stop you being sick afterwards. But they predominantly use Metoclopramide and Domperidone, which increase your milk supply. So you're desperately trying to wean your child because you can't feed whilst you're on the chemotherapy, and they give you a drug. That means you might be dripping milk again. And that's going to add to the distress. So I've been writing rounds to various people and trying to make that information available as well. So that's really important. It's another journey. 

Emma Pickett  1:02:20

Yeah. Yes, it is. And I'm very much hoping it has a good ending. And then your daughter's getting the care she needs. I don't want to pry too much or ask too much personal information about that. 

Wendy Jones  1:02:29

It's looking good. Yeah. Fingers crossed. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  1:02:32

very much. So crossing everything. Yeah, well trust you to turn that experience into a gift for others. And also, you know that your daughter's doing that as well that she's willing to let her story become something that benefits and should other people can share. And as you know, that's really special. So thank you to her for that. Is there anything we haven't talked about today? Wendy, that you want to make sure that we mentioned in the space of breastfeeding in your work or drugs and breast milk or anything else you think we need? I didn't ask about that you think we should talk about?

Wendy Jones  1:03:02

I think if there was just one message one sentence that I'd want to say it if somebody tells you you can't breastfeed on a drug. Don't take that as the whole truth. Look for other information or question that information first. 

Emma Pickett  1:03:22

Yes, let's get that embroidered on pillows written on buses flying through the sky attach to the back of an aeroplane. Yes, because off gosh, the saddest people are the people who three years later find out that hang on what do you mean I didn't have to stop breastfeeding off that's a that's something that you have dedicated your life to preventing and rescuing people from and yeah, if we can any every single person we can stop having that experience is a is a success and a win. Thank you, Andy, thank you so much for your time today really appreciated. I'm gonna let you get back to your dogs and your and your family life and I'm just so incredibly grateful I could gush for another 10 minutes about how special you are and how warm and generous you are and how you support other breastfeeding volunteers and supporters and and also what a difference you make to families. Gosh that MBE so well deserved and I want Dame Wendy Jones to be happening before too long. I'm gonna I'm going to be writing to some people.

Wendy Jones  1:04:18

Thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to just spend the hour talking about what makes my world go round. 

Emma Pickett  1:04:25

Oh, very honoured to be listening to you. Thanks, Wendy. 

Emma Pickett  1:04:32

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.