Rakhee's story - a gradual weaning journey

It’s my pleasure to be joined this week by Rakhee to talk about her gradual weaning journey with her daughter Isla. 

It was lack of sleep and aversion connected to her cycle that made Rakhee consider putting in some boundaries with Isla when she was around 18 months. With the support of her husband, Sandy, she made these changes very slowly, allowing for Isla to adapt and grow as she went. Eventually they ended their breastfeeding journey this year, when Isla was 3 years old.

This story touches on post-nursery feeds, aversion, and fear or anxiety over a child’s distress.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Emma Pickett  00:00

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:46

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode, I'm really honored to be joined by Rakhee Shah, who is someone I've known for about 18 months. It's not often in these episodes that I'm talking to somebody that I've worked with and supported. And Rakhee's story is very much a gradual weaning story. That's what we both decided we're okay to call it. We're talking about her weaning journey and how she went her daughter Isla. And she took her while in the loveliest way not because she was failing dismally, and was desperate to hurry up and finish breastfeeding. But because that was a mothering choice to take a while and to go gently and and she absolutely achieved it. And am I right Rakhee? It's just over a month since you had your very last breastfeed? 

Rakhee Shah  01:30

That's exactly right. Yeah, just over a month.

Emma Pickett  01:33

And before we go back to the beginning, let's talk a bit more about the end. So have you had any physical impacts of the end of breastfeeding? Did you have any breast health issues and Gordmans or blocked ducts? And how are you feeling emotionally and mentally?

Rakhee Shah  01:48

So no, no, no issues actually, physically with how that how my boobs were? And it actually just, I think because it because it had been gradually I think my body was probably adjusting with me. So by the time we came to an end, I think my body sort of was like, Yeah, this is we're okay to call call, call this a day. emotionally. I probably have been a little bit more up and down. Actually, no, you ask, I hadn't actually put it down to that, because I've always been quite premenstrual anyway. And that had sort of shifted a little bit, I suppose when I was breastfeeding, but that's yeah. Now you mentioned it. That's definitely come back, I would say. 

Emma Pickett  02:31

Okay, so when you say sort of up and down you mean, feeling a bit low or feeling a bit kind of irritable? What kind of symptoms have you had? 

Rakhee Shah  02:41

yeah, I would say, a little bit anxious and a little bit low at times. But it it's kind of just gone back to how I was before Isla in that it's sort of just, you know, just before my cycle, and then it sort of just it will pass. And then usually I'm kind of just feeling back to myself again. But I suppose I hadn't really now I think about it hadn't really felt that in the same. I felt lots of different things when I was breastfeeding, but not I don't think that

Emma Pickett  03:10

yeah, I hope it didn't bring up something that you weren't aware of that makes you feel uncomfortable. I mean, it's that I know, we've spoken and I know that you will talk in this in this episode a bit about your cycle and how that impacted on your breastfeeding journey. It is really normal to have a little bit of an emotional wobble for you know, roughly four to six weeks after the end of breastfeeding is quite common for people and and we know we're losing that oxytocin and we're also kind of reevaluating how we are feeling as a as a mother. And that can bring up some feelings as well. Before we do talk about the beginning, when you look back at your breastfeeding journey, how are you feeling today thinking about that and thinking about what you achieved with Isla?

Rakhee Shah  03:46

 Yeah, really, really happy actually really happy that, that I breastfed her for? Because she was three and three years and four months sesh when when she fully weaned. And up until the kind of end months, you know, like she was still feeding. She you know, she was still feeding at least two or three times a day up until quite close to close to that sort of age. So yeah, but I'm really happy now that we've had those really close moments and those kinds of really intimate moments for the first three years that that she was kind of around. Yeah. So yeah, really, really pleased that I mean, I really enjoyed it on. I mean, I found it difficult as well, but I really didn't kind of want to stop straightaway anyway, so I always knew that I wasn't ready. I didn't really have an idea of wanting to breastfeed until she's three. But I knew that sort of 910 months I wasn't you know, I wasn't anywhere near ready to sort of weigh in either. But yeah, I think I think really positive really happy and really glad that that that I kind of managed to give that to her and also because I got so much from As well emotionally as well, like, you know, it just bought us. It was so lovely and close for that long.

Emma Pickett  05:07

Yeah, that's, that's really good to hear. And I know one of the reasons you had such a gradual weaning journey is because you were so focused on her emotional health. I mean, I've worked with, you know, hundreds of families through their weaning journey, but you really are somebody that sticks in my mind as somebody who was very, very thoughtful and reflective and really wanting to make sure she was supported. And I'd also say you're someone who sticks in my mind, your lovely husband, Sandy is also just so emotionally supportive. And I don't mean to dismiss all the other partners I worked with, but he also is someone that comes to mind when I think of someone who really valued breastfeeding. Gosh, he really got why it was important and why it mattered and, and why it was important to support you and emotionally support you so. So thank you for giving me those examples in my, in my career and having those examples in front of my mind, because I've definitely learned that from working with you as well. Let's go back to the very beginning. Let's talk about Eilers birth. But before even that, before you had it, what did you know about breastfeeding? Did you have a lot of family experience of breastfeeding? Was it something that you knew was going to be important to you? 

Rakhee Shah  06:10

No, No and No. I hadn't really even thought about it. If I'm honest with you. I knew that I wanted to breastfeed, I had a vague kind of goal that I would want to breastfeed for the first six months, I hadn't really done a lot of research into the benefits, though, of breastfeeding, I hadn't really considered, you know, the kind of the, the potential difficulties that someone might have, or the importance of the latch or anything really, it was only I think, I think I was when I was due in November. And it was a it was probably about six, six weeks before that I had had a friend who had recommended actually, that if I did want to breastfeed, it would be a good idea to get a lactation consultant booked in because because it might because it may be challenging or it might not. And so I did have that. That appointment booked in for quite for kind of the second or third day after I left either came along. But even even then even in making that appointment, I didn't really kind of understand the commitment of it. At that point. And even we're even at the beginning like you know, when she cuz she fed she kind of she latched was really lucky she she she was born through a C section, and she latched beautifully. Like she just kind of came on. And it was just it was kind of it was we were really lucky. It was fine from the beginning. But she was she was a COVID baby. So we actually didn't get that we didn't actually get to see that lactation consultant for probably about two weeks kind of after she was born. So I didn't really know what whether I was doing things right at that point. But she Yeah, she she was kind of she was feeding well. 

Emma Pickett  08:02

Okay, gosh. So we're talking November. Of that. Still locked down to happen. That was the Christmas where everyone started locking down again,wasn't it? 

Rakhee Shah  08:12

Yeah, so that's 2020. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emma Pickett  08:15

And you were okay. Post C section, you are guessing you're in hospital for a little bit. So you have some support in the hospital, but then sent back home. And you didn't get face to face support then for for quite a while by the sounds of it. But luckily, it sounds like things were going reasonably well. Tell me about those first couple of weeks. 

Rakhee Shah  08:31

Yeah, it was probably I'd say maybe it was a little bit sooner. So I was kept in hospital for hospital for quite a long time. I think it was about because she came on a Friday. I think we've always kept in for sort of like five or six days. So what one of the reasons that Well, the main reason that they kept her it kept us in for so long was because she she had birth weight was very small. So she was born at 3.8 pounds. So she was tiny. And so they obviously just needed to monitor us and to monitor her before they were confident to kind of let us go.

Emma Pickett  09:01

Okay, gosh, that is quite literal, isn't it? Did you find that because she was quite literal. It was difficult to get breastfeeding off to a good start. Was she early or was she term?

Rakhee Shah  09:10

She was what you'd caught her because she she was only two weeks early. But then her due date. And no we I was really lucky she she she always fed really well from the beginning. 

Emma Pickett  09:23

Brilliant. That's good to hear. Because it last thing you need with a pandemic going on is stress around feeding and latching so you weren't in pain. She was putting on weight breastfeeding was going reasonably well. It sounds like you're in a good place. But you haven't mentioned family. Did you have any family experience of breastfeeding? Did you have anyone who in your close to you who had breastfed or was really keen to support your breastfeeding?

Rakhee Shah  09:45

No. So my mum actually didn't didn't. There's three of us and my mum didn't actually breastfeed. I think at that point. The advice was that formula was what she was given was that formula was was better for her and we It would be better for us, she was actually a nurse as well. So she, so we were all formula fed, and she actually delivered babies a lot in her nursing career that was one of the pet duties. And then my sister did want to breastfeed more than she did. But she was pressured quite a lot to Combi feed and to kind of do top ups with, with formula. And that affected her supply. So she, between that, and, and she, she sort of had just had a lot of family pressure to really kind of to be using more formula. She didn't really get to breast breastfeed in the way that she would have liked. So one of the things that she did say to me actually, really, really early because I've got two sisters and what she the advice that she gave me was that if I could just exclusively breastfeed, that would be better for us, but especially for the short term, because otherwise, I might have issues with my supply. And I think that was really helpful advice that she gave me. 

Emma Pickett  11:02

That's great that she said that and some people in your sister situation would maybe go the other way and, and almost kind of look for validation of the choices that they made or, you know, expect to get support through your most repeating her journey. But it sounds as though she was very aware that she hadn't been given the right information and really knew that that wasn't the direction she'd gone in and great that she was able to kind of recognize that and verbalize that and then give you that support. Although I guess in lockdown, you weren't seeing a lot of your family at that point they were probably not able to visit you or necessarily spend a lot of time with with our baby tiny baby Isla. 

Rakhee Shah  11:36

Yeah, that was Yeah, yeah. We didn't really sort of have that have that many visitors that that that conversation may have been when she was a little bit. I'd say it was probably still in the first trimester that we'd had that conversation because I was having pressure from my mum to start Combi feeding really from from the onset. And it was just that where I was starting to because I really kind of got into Instagram and following Catherine Stagg at that point I'd kind of found Catherine Stagg through through the lactation consultant that I used. And she, I mean, yeah, being in lockdown, and finding Catherine stags Instagram page was just a lifesaver for me. I was on that page. I mean, sometimes for hours scrolling through the questions scrolling through the q&a, you know, she would have this sort of like, at three months, you know, this is what to expect at four months, this is what to expect with your body and with your child. And that information, I don't think I could have done it without all of that kind of, you know, that information that was just sort of readily there. Because the other thing is, it's all it's all on the internet, but you don't know what to trust, but because that had been signposted. To me. I was getting lots of really good information from there. So you know, things I call actually don't want to call me feed because of my because it could affect my supply. That was actually it was probably from there that I kind of got that and then had that conversation with my sister. But yeah, as I said, like it was, I was kind of getting, you know, I was kind of getting a little bit of pressure from, from my family from the onset to, you know, she'll sleep better if you if you if you can't be feed or if you just topped up with some formula, then you'll find that, you know, she's just foolish, she'll she'll be a lot further or actually think, you know, if there was sort of comments around what she's not going to get enough, enough from you that sort of things. So a few things to contend with.

Emma Pickett  13:34

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. That's a really difficult situation to be in. Um, I did another episode about dealing with family pressure. And those are the sorts of comments unfortunately, that can really impact on people but you stayed strong. I know that for sure. Definitely a shout out for Catherine's work. She's an absolute legend. I interviewed her on the podcast and we actually did an episode about babies that are late to sorry late preterm early term. And and some of the things that may have been relevant when Nyla was super small. Catherine would have been great for information on that as well. Yeah, has Hearst information is just brilliant. She's just so down to earth and able to explain things really clearly. So I'm very glad you found her. So as I said, You did stay strong. You carried on exclusively breastfeeding, breastfeeding was working. Monster ticking by when did you start to feel that you needed some to some support to Change Things When did start, things start to feel a bit overwhelming.

Rakhee Shah  14:27

So I'll start nursery when she was about a year. And what I was starting to find probably about from the onset from when she started was because she'd sort of miss us. And Miss B I guess so much I miss the feedings so much was that the first thing that she needed after nursery was you know, just to come upstairs and have more. I mean, we wouldn't even be through the door something

Emma Pickett  14:56

ma is her lovely word for breastfeeding. Yeah, exactly. So so are you also ma or is more very much just milk? 

Rakhee Shah  15:03

Just milk actually 

Emma Pickett  15:05

okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Rakhee Shah  15:08

And that was fine. Because again, I've kind of, I've done, I've done the seminar, on back to back to work, we are back to work breastfeeding. So I was fully expecting that sort of like she's going to need it as soon as she's back from nursery. But the other thing that happened at that at that point was that she was just one tick, there was just no rhyme or reason or rhythm, she was just wanting bar, like every half an hour, so we'd get up from nursery about 330. And from 330 Till bedtime, it would just be like, get them out, put them away, get them out, put them away, and then it was just constant. And that it was at that point in it. So she was probably about probably about 15/16 months at that point that I started to feel like, okay, this is this is quite a lot.

Emma Pickett  15:55

What were your nights like at that point?

Rakhee Shah  15:58

And so we coslept, we still do party co sleep. And so the nights, the nights at that point probably started to become a little bit more challenging as well. So she was definitely sort of waking up a lot. She was sort of probably quite often waking up every two hours, and then would only settle with breast milk or, you know, kind of the Yeah, yeah, just and often she would sort of sleep just attached. That's how we'd sleep. So I was just starting to find all of that situation a little bit overwhelming. And I didn't really know what to do with do about it. 

Emma Pickett  16:39

And you were working, you're back at work, which is why I was at nursery, what was your working schedule while you were going through that?

Rakhee Shah  16:45

Yeah, so I took work quite slowly. So I went back to work, didn't go back to work till kind of when she was probably about eight, just just shy of a team. So I went back to work and pushes probably about just 14 months or so. But I only went back condensed hours, like a nine to three, two days a week to begin with. So it was a really kind of slow, and I purposefully decided to go back into more of a sort of a temp role rather than a kind of a big responsibility role. So it was kind of really ready for it. So that in that respects, it was quite nice. So she'd finished nursery at three, and then I'd pick her up and then I'd be able to be with her until she went to bed. And then I'd usually log on again in the evenings to finish off my day.

Emma Pickett  17:31

I mean, you talk about it being a slow start, but that's quite an you know, that is still quite intense, there's condensed days aren't always days where your colleagues and your employer consider you to be having an easier time of it, you know, you're having to squeeze a lot of work into a short period of time and then logging on again in the evenings, when you know that you're just about to have a night of frequent feeding or her being attached for a big block of time. That's not easy. That is not easy for anybody, you haven't got any direct downtime, there is no time in that 24 hours, we've got time for yourself, you are either working or you're looking after her or work, you know, working again and looking. So can't have been easy at that point. But and you sense that something wasn't quite sustainable. Something felt like it needed to change. Or how did you know sounds a silly question. But how did you know you were going you needed to make a change? How are you feeling?

Rakhee Shah  18:22

I was just I was feeling overwhelmed by it all. So nights, we weren't we were often not sleeping well. And so I was waking up quite tired. And I was just starting to become quite irritable. And also I think they were they were not I think there were periods where my where my body just was sort of shutting starting to shut down to it. So I'd sort of latch her on but I just wouldn't really kind of want to be there. It just just was just wanting to be wanting for it to be over quite quickly. And I think it was at that point, it was the frequency of it. That was that was really bothering me because as I said, like sometimes it was kind of every half an hour, especially after nursery and you know, every two hours overnight,

Emma Pickett  19:14

you use that phrase shutting down and your body kind of wanting it to end and wanting to disconnect. I guess some people might use the term aversion as nursing aversion or breastfeeding aversion to describe that feeling. Is that a phrase that you would describe yourself? Or sorry, put yourself use the label yourself?

Rakhee Shah  19:31

Yeah, yeah, we didn't really kind of come to understand or didn't even know it. You know, I didn't even know that that was a thing until I started to feel that way. And then oh, okay, did a bit of research and started to understand that that's what that's what was starting to happen. And then I would say that I didn't really sort of except that it was a version for probably two or three, maybe even four months into X was like, well, it will just pass and we'll just you know or pass or She'll settle or you know. And it was only when it was it, it was just continuing in that way. And also, the other thing was that I wasn't managing very well with her at that point. So when I needed to sort of take her off or put her down or to sort of stop breastfeeding, I don't think that I was always managing her in a maybe a sensitive manner with the careful manner that she would have needed, because obviously, she wanted that connection after nursery because she's had six hours away. And she's not used to that. And whilst I understood that, in my rational mind, I don't think at that point I was, was able to give her that give her that kind of emotional connection that she probably needed. And then overnight, you know, at some point, Sandy, we'd ended up just needing to kind of come in and pick her up and take her around the house for 45 minutes just to kind of calm her down. So it was, it was probably that it was becoming untenable for me. But it was also becoming, like, quite challenging and stressful for Sandy. And also she She was then suffering as a result of it. So we were all as a family unit struggling at that point.

Emma Pickett  21:20

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. I mean, that, that does sound like a tough time. And I can hear how there was a lot of your reaction that was beyond your control. But you were, you know, wishing that you could be there for emotionally when you were really struggling to feel regulated yourself, it's a very difficult place to be so. So you knew things needed to change? What are some of the things that you started to change first? And how did you go about making things a bit more manageable.

Rakhee Shah  21:45

So obviously, the first time you and I met was in the January. So that would have been January 2023. So that was probably about six months, to even eight months after everything, it sort of started to become quite kind of challenging. So I had had a conversation with someone and they sort of said, well, what you need to do is you need to sort of start thinking about your feeds. And you need to sort of condense some of those after nursery feeds so that you've got a bit more of a set timetable. And so whilst I kind of knew that, that's what where I wanted to get to that ambition really didn't become a reality, I would say until you and I met in the January. So I would say the whole of the whole of kind of 2022 was just like, Okay, we'll just sort of muddle through. And it was only really when we came to 2023. So while it would have been sort of like two and a half, coming up to three that was like, Okay, actually, no, sorry, she was coming up to she asked that, I thought, right. Okay, so we we met. And I think that that that conversation, and the subsequent conversations that that you and I had, were really helpful in giving me like a bit of a plan around it. And also some of the techniques and some of the tactics that I could start to employ, because it wasn't just enough to think, oh, okay, I want to go from like, six feeds off to nursery to three, I kind of needed a bit of an exit plan, like, Okay, well, what, how is that going to look, I was also really scared of her emotional reaction like, and I use the word scared, I would say, as a family unit, Sandy and I were terrified that she wouldn't be able to cope. 

Emma Pickett  23:34

I do remember one of the things that strikes me most about you, too, is that you were very worried about causing her harm. You were very concerned that if she was if her needs were not met immediately, that she would be distressed and that distress could call to cause harm. And I remember Sandy asked questions about, you know, stress hormones doing damaging things to brains, and, you know, a quite a deep level, there was a concern about causing harm. And I think I mean, I don't remember everything we talked about, but I suspect one of the early things I would have said is that, you know, you have a right to put breastfeeding boundaries in place. And she has a right to have an emotional reaction to that. And being able to support her through those emotions is a really positive, healthy thing. And not to be scared of her reaction is where you want to get to as an emotionally supportive, emotionally intelligent family. That's that's the we want the language of emotion to not be frightening. And if she is cross because it's 5pm. And you've said sorry, my love, that's enough breastfeeding until dinnertime, that crossness is not something to be frightened of, and making sure that you're able to stay regulated yourself so you're able to co regulate her. So I'm sure that's one of the things that we did talk about, but let's talk about the actual practicalities of that post nursery before we talk about nighttimes How did you reduce the number of nursery feeds what kind of tactics did you use? 

Rakhee Shah  24:54

So I guess we weren't there was a few ones that were sort of at that point set in stone. There was like an afternoon where feed, there was a before bars feed, there was an after path feed. So they were the ones that were like, Okay, I kind of know that their anchor points. And everything in between was like, Okay, well, we'll just, you know, we've got to try and figure out how we put those together. So the after nursery feed, like I remember was last summer that I started to take her after nursery to the park and or to Costa Costa has been my savior every day after nursery between probably like, May and October. And that's what we would do. So that she, I guess, that just to try and sort of break that our case straight after nursery, I do this, so that I was trying to kind of introduce a case straight after this, we we, we go and have a babychino, or we, you know, we go to the park first. So we did that for a really long time. And we did that all summer and into autumn. 

Emma Pickett  25:56

So a little shout out for the cost of experience, which appears to be some sort of baby chinos special deal I'll see if I can organise some sort of voucher code. But what that was wasn't just you distracting that wasn't you just sort of avoiding coming home. That was you're giving her your devoted time. So when you are sitting in cook in Costa or other coffee shops are available with a babychino, you know, you can't cook you can't do housework, and you can't walk away from her. You are right there. Right you know giving her your entire focus literally sitting opposite her. You know, when you're in the park, you're not going to disappear and put laundry on your you're absolutely with her. So she knows that she's got you for those moments, you know that that chunk of time, and that was probably filling her mommy Cup, which probably meant that, you know, their emotional needs were being met. And you know, that was helping her to come home and that regulated. I've got mommy mommy's back. We're connected again state. So it's not just about the babychino, it's about the fact you're giving her that devoted time, which I think is sometimes those repeated requests after nursery are just about saying, no, no, don't go in the kitchen and start cooking. No, no, no, don't honor the dishwasher. Don't Don't Do you know, don't go and fiddle around with laundry. I know you're home, but I want you I want you and that's what you were able to do by giving her that time. So So you got home from park/Costa. And then so you were able to get into those anchor feeds. Without having all those frequent feeds.

Rakhee Shah  27:23

We get home she'd want feeds, but you know, by that point, it was an hour, an hour later than it then it would have been. So then again, then we'd kind of carry on into combo, we have our feed, and then we'll you know, we'd do whatever we were doing and you know, before bath or after bath, etc, etc. So that was the first thing that the other thing that I think that we that I probably did in that time was have another comment, I think we would have had another conversation around about that time. And you told me about a lady called Shelly Clark. And I can't remember the term the active attentive parenting or active

Emma Pickett  28:04

Yeah, so there's, there's attachment parenting. Now there's also there's attachment play. There's different there's Hand in Hand parenting, there's aware parenting, the web. So where parenting is very connected to what we were just talking about in terms of not being frightened, frightened of emotions, you're realizing that not being frightened of our child being upset, or dysregulated is as a gift. Yeah, being regulated ourselves through that as a gift. 

Rakhee Shah  28:28

So it was it was that really like the, it was that sort of getting into that and understanding that a little bit more. And really, for me and Sandy, like talking through like, okay, she's going to be upset, and we're just going to have to be strong and just be there for her and just listen to her. So there was that piece. And then it was the other the other thing that that you really helped me with was trying to kind of understand her psyche. So sometimes for her, the breastfeeding was, like you said, it was just about me being present. Sometimes it was about the control, as well, like for her, and also just sort of having having all of me. So I started to employ some of the tactics that through through the ship through through through the conversations that we've had. So, for example, when she when she'd sort of asked us for a feed, I'd kind of say, oh, no, but let's have 1000 Kisses instead. And I like and that's actually how I put her to sleep. Now we do 1000 cases that sort of we've been doing that 1000 cases for like over a year now. But at that point, I would use that as like, Oh no, let's not do that. But you know, I'm gonna get you or we do Chase like we do a lot of Chase. And I found that was quite helpful to sort of just change the dialogue and change the shifted like just shift her focus. And often sometimes she'd forget, like, you know, oh, I actually was came to Miami for a feed and now we're playing Chase and it's so much fun. And then sometimes she'd just go for 1000 Kisses and sometimes like she wouldn't. And it wouldn't always work, but having those strategies really helped.

Emma Pickett  30:08

Yeah, 1000 Kisses is one of one of Shelley's lovely phrases, and like I keep banging on about other podcast episodes, but I also interviewed Shelly, for one of my podcast episodes about breastfeeding boundaries and big feelings. And she talks about looking for giggles and sometimes if there's a moment where you are declining a feed and saying, you know, not, not right now, sweetie, we'll do it later. You know, it feels a bit scary. It's a bit tense. And if you can, as you say, if you can shift if you can change the mood, and find the giggles, that takes that tension out of that moment, and, and Chase is lovely, because chases, you know, like really literally going after a child and saying, I want you I want you come here, you know your mind, I want to hold you, I want to cuddle you, you know it, you know, the opposite of pushing someone away, you're literally chasing after them. So. And in that moment, you know, Isla feels really important. And she you know, she's the boss of how fast she goes or how slowly she goes. And whether she gets caught or not is a lot up to her. So she has a lot of agency in that moment. And as you said a lot about a lot of breastfeeding requests are about control or agency is another word we can use where little people really love to ask because it's the asking that gives them that sense of power. Not only do they get that connection with you, but they get that what I call communication buzz from the asking. 

Emma Pickett  31:24

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  32:12

So you were filling the mummy cup with some other things as well. But I know nights were hard for a while and one of the things that I'd like to talk about if you're comfortable, as you've already touched on how you you premenstrual Lee, you've sometimes struggle and your cycles can bring quite a lot of emotional change for you. And I remember we sort of started to find a link when things were particularly hard with your aversion. And, and your cycles. Tell me a bit more about that and what link you've noticed.

Rakhee Shah  32:40

So it definitely sort of started to notice that I was like my breasts, for example, like they would just be so much more like so much more sensitive, just you know, just kind of in, in the few days or the week before my period. And you know, to the point where I literally, like I could not have her anywhere near me in those in that you know, there was one particular time I remember that we went we went and stayed at a friend's house. And she was she was going nuts. She wouldn't sleep. We were waking the whole house up. But they've got kids themselves. And I just I just couldn't do it. And Sandy was like, What is? Well, you no worries, all she wants is more. But I just couldn't do it. And that was probably the most extreme. And I think it was after that. But you and I spoke about oh, you know, could it be? Could it be attached to your cycle? And I thought oh, actually, yes, it Yes. It definitely has to be because I don't feel like that all the time. But yeah, and then I started to sort of notice the link where it Yeah, where that would happen. My periods weren't monthly. But yeah, where it would happen, you know, at the time at the time of my period.

Emma Pickett  33:55

Yeah. And I remember, Sandy was worried about you, he was worried he knew that part of your brain absolutely wanted to breastfeed, but you had this kind of physical resistance that meant you You almost had a little forcefield that meant you, you couldn't make it happen. And that must have been a really difficult moment for you. When that night when you were staying away. That sounds really grim to know that you wanted to be able to meet her needs, but something was making that pot not possible. So it wasn't about positioning attachment. It wasn't anything to do with her latch. It was you literally just had breast sensitivity and probably something emotional. Yeah. Psychological connected to that as well. 

Rakhee Shah  34:33

Yeah, yeah, definitely emotional and psychological as well kind of kicking in at those points. And I remember Sandy just couldn't understand the aversion like, you know, we would talk about the virtual age and he would be like, Yeah, but I don't understand that because, you know, like after shower, you're doing more in and you're just so loving and you're so connected and then it comes to this time and like you're just like a different. You're like a totally different person. But yeah, it was it was it was quite stark. You know how I would be at one point in the month and how I would be in another pot in other parts and months?

Emma Pickett  35:10

Yeah. Did you get to a place where you could kind of start to explain that to Isla? Did you get to a place where you were able to talk to her about when things were harder? 

Rakhee Shah  35:19

Yeah. Yeah. And again, it was through the conversation that you and I had, where you were, you know, you talked about the fact that you, you know, you can, if you use the right words, in the right language, you can be honest with her, and that's okay. And so yeah, I would say it was, you know, it's, I'm finding it difficult today, it's because so is it, you know, can we try and, you know, can we try and have more, maybe a little bit more quickly today. Because, you know, mommy's mommy's March you because at that point, she's because it's gone from Marta, Marla B's to and Marlo, so she still calls that she'll see them in the farm having a shower on you, but I can see your Marloes. So I'd say you know, mommy's Marloes or, you know, kind of hurting. I don't feel very nice today. And she Yeah, she, she would she would understand that. I remember she kind of got the What's that purple tube called?

Emma Pickett  36:17

the lanolin brand. 

Rakhee Shah  36:18

Yeah, she would have seen me putting that on. So I remember at that one on one. And she's really quite an intuitive child. Like she came in. She brought that to me. She was like, this is you know, like,

Emma Pickett  36:29

here are some more loads are hurting. And this is what we do in medicine. Yeah.

Rakhee Shah  36:35

She's amazing. Yeah. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  36:37

that's lovely. That is a real empathy, isn't it? And, and wanting to fix it in order to make you better? Yeah, I wish it wouldn't it be great if there was some magic cream that just sorted out breastfeeding aversion and any emotional psychological stuff about the menstrual cycle? Like we could make millions? Yeah, unfortunately, no magic cream, but they're so sweet that she wanted to help you like that. So you mentioned the while ago, she was feeding too early through the night and also staying on through the night and wanting to remain attached? How long did that carry on for? And did you have to make shifts to change your nighttime patterns? 

Rakhee Shah  37:08

Yeah, in the end for that. So I guess everything was, in some respects happening. At the same time, in terms of I was becoming more confident around boundaries, I was becoming more confident around, okay, you know, she, she would she would be okay, if we kind of say No, at this point I'd been practicing or, you know, kind of doing the kind of more attachment style play, because one of the things that Sandy spoke about was, when we're ready to start dropping feeds, we need to have made sure that we've been doing the attachment play for for quite a long time. So that she's read, you know, so that we brought her on the journey. And that was very much Sandy actually, because he's so empathetic, like that, really mindful of that. And so at the point where we was ready to start dropping feeds, I suppose, to some extent, we'd sort of built up a bit of a toolkit. And we as a family unit definitely felt more comfortable. And it definitely felt more like more comfortable, you know, Sandy would like to hear Sure. And I'd be like, no, no, no, it will be okay. So we started off with the day feeds in terms of dropping them so we dropped sauces, drop those one by one. So at that point, we're sort of confident enough to start to start dropping the after school one. And really, she was often SB one. And really, she was kind of okay with that, because we elongated that time where she, I guess her body had sort of adjusted, and then the next one to go would have been the after the before bath one. And I remember that one, there was a those anchor moments were difficult to to drop, and we had to drop them, you know, I think I did sort of a dropped one every two months or something like that, like they were quite slow. Maybe even every three months, they were quite slow to go. But I remember like they they were really hard to drop, because, you know, she found that really difficult. Like, you know, the anchor moments like you know, mom after up before bath, she would call it and I remember could still remember crying. She's like mom after bars, ma after bars, you know, because that was just what we would do. Yeah, but where were we were doing the other things. And I think where I was just comfortable to sort of say, well, no, we're not going to do it now. But we are we will have more, you know, at this point, you know, and it was probably there was another point that we would be doing it. So that was how we how we dropped them quite slowly and one by one. And then by the time we got to starting to tackle the nights because I know that's what you'd asked me about. Really, I think I just couldn't really do the nights anymore. And so I just got to a point and you and I had been talking quite closely about the knights and just got to a point where I was like, Okay, well, we're just going to have to try and just get through most of the night without ma and that might be a really difficult time for all of us. But we're just going to have to do that. Because I can't, I can't feed her all the time. And at that point, I was just like, I just I really can't. There was probably like a week or so that she was waking up. And it was a long time that she was up, you know, like, probably an hour that she was up, and she really wanted to have ma. And we were all up together. You know, reading stories at that time, it was like, three in the morning or whatever, trying to do other things were and then finally we, you know, we'd all sort of end up cobbling together and sort of going back to sleeping, because we will sleep together or slept together. So there was a period of that. 

Emma Pickett  40:41

So you're offering other things you're doing other activities and other things to sort of keep her regulated and obviously help her to feel connected? Did you do sort of talking to her in advance? Did you do sort of preparing her and saying, you know, Isla de today's time, we're not going to have more at nighttime. Do you remember having some sort of preparation? 

Rakhee Shah  40:58

Yeah, yeah, we yeah, we would, we would talk about it. Say, you know, we're not going to, we're not going to have more overnight, but we'll have more in the morning. You know, so we still have Mark, we have it in the morning. We don't have it overnight. And so that's an she wouldn't, she doesn't really like something she doesn't really have much to say about it. So she just wouldn't really say much. But they get that's kind of what we did. And then I would say that we sort of had that period where it was quite quite difficult for about a week or two weeks or something when we made the decision. And we were like, Okay, this is what we're gonna do. It was difficult for a while, but then I just found that it did settle. So then she'd come in for cuddles after when she when she would wake up instead, we were still co sleeping. We've really we only stopped co sleeping two months ago. And then and then she was kind of getting through the night. She was getting through the night. It was probably December time. Really, to Christmas just gone to

Emma Pickett  42:04

about she was about just before she was three. And were you going sort of when you say through the night? Did you sort of start with a shorter block and then go extend that time? Or did you try and do a whole big block in one go?

Rakhee Shah  42:16

Now we would we would try and make it to five? Five for us was like, that's enough. Really after five she wouldn't be able to handle any more like she you know, 

Emma Pickett  42:28

Do you mean five hours or 5am? 

Rakhee Shah  42:30

5am. 

Emma Pickett  42:31

Okay. Okay, so you went from from her bedtime to 5am. And it only took you a week. That's pretty good. Great. Or were you feeding sort of your your sort of bedtime? How long was she was going? How long was she going during that week? 

Rakhee Shah  42:44

Oh, so she was have to she would have the top so she would go to sleep? Probably like about seven 730. And then she would when we got into bed when I got into bed about 10 between 10 and 11. She she'd always have a little feed, then we'd go to five. 

Emma Pickett  43:01

Okay, perfect. Yeah, that's what I was clarifying. That's a really common pattern than to lots of people are doing that sort of adult bedtime to sort of 5am block. Yeah, and also, just to say lots of people will recognize that, you know, after 5am, nothing is gonna work, you are not going to get a little person back to sleep at 5am. If they don't have that sleep pressure, especially if it's, you know, they know the mornings coming. I guess at that time of year, it would have still been quite dark. But if they sense mornings coming, there is no chance of them settling back to sleep. So you've got the night blocks happening. And were you feeling more rested? How did you feel about things generally at that point?

Rakhee Shah  43:37

Yeah, quite really happy. I remember in December, I said to Sandy set up. I think she's night waiting. Like we've actually we've done it. She's She doesn't need more overnight. And yeah, it was felt marvelous.

Emma Pickett  43:49

Marvelous. Oh, that's, that's great. I can see your big smile on your face. But you obviously did have a difficult week. And when you talk about her being awake, and you know, reading books and doing other things with her, was she very distressed in those moments? Was there was there a lot of tears? Or was it more just about her being awake and a bit annoyed, she wasn't breastfeeding, but actually happy to do other things.

Rakhee Shah  44:14

She was she was very upset for about two days. There was two days I remember where she, she was not happy. But after those two days where she and it was it was about an hour and a half that she was upset for and we will you know, we were doing various things to kind of try and try and calm her down. And also, between us trying to kind of say, Okay, well let's just listen to her as well because we were really aware of that as well that she was upset and it was okay for her to be upset and it was her right to be upset and actually, it wasn't just about kind of making her stop crying if she needed to cry because she uh, one of the things that you said to me was this will be her first loss. And that's really stayed with me, you know in terms of If it was such a big deal to her that yeah, we did try and sort of just listen to that, as well. Which, which wasn't easy for us, as you can imagine. But then after after those two days, it she would be up, but it wasn't, it wasn't really like that it was just more of okay, let's we're not going to have mass and what should we do instead? You know, let's read a book, let's read Pip and Posy.

Emma Pickett  45:29

But I'm guessing you didn't carry on reading books all through the night for the next few months? What if, what if she wakes up today? What do you do instead?

Rakhee Shah  45:37

Yeah, so I guess after a while, I think where she started to understand that that mom wasn't part of the equation anymore, she started to sort of settle more in herself. So she would not fully wake up, you know, any more, she would wake up, but she would just come in for a cuddle or she'd have a whinge. But it would be a whinge where I could kind of just tap or or share or cuddle her. And we still sleep quite close, like with, you know, it's sort of sleep next to each other. And that would be that would be okay, so gradually, she stopped needing the wake up, and then she would just sort of just maybe whinge and then get through the night and, and then really, that, that then carried on just getting better, where she would just wind less really, you know, she just sort of really just kind of come in just to check that check that I was still there. So it's probably now it's just about checking, as opposed to sort of needing more than that.

Emma Pickett  46:44

Did she a massive breakfast when you night when and what did you notice change in her sort of eating and drinking?

Rakhee Shah  46:49

This has always been quite big for a pre pre kind of sleeping snack. But that that probably increased. So she has like quite a big sort of just pre sleeping snack. So she's really into like, randomly, so she'll have like, loads of votes by themselves or something like that just before sleeping. And then yeah, in the morning, she Yeah, definitely sort of needed needed a big breakfast, like lots of porridge and lots of strawberries and whatever else she was having.

Emma Pickett  47:25

So you're now in a place where she's not doing that frequent feeding after nursery. She's now still having a bedtime feed, still having your bedtime feed, but going through to sort of five ish. And daytime feeds have really reduced what happened next.

Rakhee Shah  47:40

So yeah, so at this point, we were at, literally, we were at just the last feed, which was just the just the pre, the just getting her to sleep feed, so she was still okay,

Emma Pickett  47:53

so you drop the morning feed huge. So you talk to you talk to originally about the nighttime sort of being on the understanding the morning feed is going to come. But that feed that feed went so

Rakhee Shah  48:04

I guess we got to a point where the only two feeds that we had were before bed. And then we kind of managed to drop that 11 o'clock one. And then we had the morning one. So there was just two there was just before sleeping, and then just as she woke up, so I dropped there just as she woke up on the 5am. One first. So that one that one was quite was difficult, as well, it was less difficult than dropping the others. But yeah, I think again, it was just about at some point. And we were careful about when we wanted to drop that morning feed as well. Because think, again, it was a conversation that you and I had had. And we were working under the proviso that we were telling her that you know, she would have the feed in the morning. So we were really careful around well, we can't just drop that, like that's not going to be fair to her. So we didn't drop that one. I mean, we've kind of got her got her through the night, got her to sort of sort of five, and then I just dropped that one quite slowly. Where sometimes she would have it sometimes she wouldn't have it. And it was a bit like that.

Emma Pickett  49:09

So you weren't offering you're waiting to see if she initiated it herself. If it did happen, it was shorter. You were trying to sort of get her on to the next activity or interest around breakfast and just sort of de emphasize it and make it make it less significant less important and and then the mornings when you didn't have it you just be having to get up and get on with breakfast and and it sounds like she was in a place where that felt okay for her and she was happy with that. Actually, before we talk about your final winning I want to ask about naps. So when you're with her on the when you're not working, how are you doing naps? Had you you hadn't I'm guessing you'd stopped feeding her to sleep for naps that by that point. What are you doing instead? You remember?

Rakhee Shah  49:50

Yeah, well, we were quite we were quite lucky because she dropped her naps. She dropped her naps around at around the Costa time

Emma Pickett  50:01

the Costa time [laughs]

Rakhee Shah  50:03

early that she dropped her nap, so we did, okay, so you don't have to worry about that. Yeah, we didn't need to worry about that. And then she sometimes have the danger nap in the car, but that was okay as well because it would be in the car. 

Emma Pickett  50:14

Okay, so you're just now down to the bedtime feed. So the morning feed is gone. With, you know, the odd day here, not day there. And eventually no days at all. And she's not asking in the day, you're not having to decline a lot of feeds. She's, you know, obviously all your work on Attachment, play all your work on, you know, being with her and meeting her needs in other ways. You know, she was getting her cup filled with other things. But you've still got this bedtime feed as part of the bedtime routine. So tell us about how you got rid of that.

Rakhee Shah  50:43

Yeah, so that one was that one was the surprise for us, actually. So it was around February this year, and we'd been promising her that we would get her a bed for ages because she didn't have a bed. So I think we've been telling her for like, I've know three months. We're gonna get your bed soon. We're gonna get your bed soon. Anyway, the bed finally arrived in February. And she was so excited. Like, we didn't expect that she would sleep in this thought we'll get the bed but she's not going to sleep in the bed. Two days after the bed arrived. She was like, oh, I want to today I was making cakes. She said Mommy today I'm going to sleep in my bed. I was like, Okay, well, in my head was like, Okay, anyway, bedtime came and she really wants to go sleep in her bed. So we did MA and then she proceeded to put herself. So we she she had MA and then she said right you go. And I'm now going to put myself to sleep. I remember that what that

Emma Pickett  51:43

so we there was this child

Rakhee Shah  51:46

never pass off to sleep, every apartment nursery like she has never done that before. So we just did what she asked us to do, which was go outside, sit outside, while she tried to put herself to sleep. And she did like she found it really hard. And she was really struggling, you know, sort of shifting around a lot. But she did. She got herself to sleep that night. I mean, how is going on. And then, but then she didn't do that. Again, she thought of them. But she still had

Emma Pickett  52:17

that box was ticked.

Rakhee Shah  52:20

But then she did proceed to carry on sleeping in her bed. And I think that was the thing that helped us in terms of she started to forget herself. So there was one night where I in my mind, it was sort of just starting to feel a bit like tokenistic in that when I was giving a mark it was quite a was starting to be quite sure the feed and she was then at that point not needing to kind of feed to sleep, she was able to come off and then sort of get settled and go to sleep. But she's still very much needed it. But it was starting to feel like God, you know what I feel like she could take this or leave this. Not quite there. But we've kind of moving into that sort of space. And then the bed came, there was just one day where I was not going to ask her I'm just going to see what happens. I'm not going to mention more. And she just went like she just went to sleep without it. And I think that was that was the day that I sent you a message. It's just gone to sleep without Wow. And then from there, it was like a few probably a week or two weeks where she would ask she would remember Oh, we forgot mommy. That's what she would say. And then we would have it when she asked for rare but then she would often just forget. And then it was probably like, like that for a while. And then it just became normal that she didn't have it anymore. So I was like planning for this big ceremony. We're going to have to get like the neck clear. So I was planning to get the the jewelry and talk to her and get this keepsake box and had it all planned. I was wasn't ready to do it. I thought well, we're not going to be doing that anytime soon. I was thinking it would be April time. And then she that was it. Just like that.

Emma Pickett  54:10

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there's something there isn't there about the change, just shaking up the routine a little bit, that new bed, that new environment. She was excited about that. And that gave her that sense of agency and control and she felt important and significant and, and that there was lots of special feelings attached to that bed. And also she sounds ready, doesn't she? I mean, there's a little bit of this is a good example of how there's never completely parent led or completely child led. So much of it happens in the middle and actually dropping that final feed sounds very much Isla led that sounds like that was that was her decision, wasn't it? She was ready. She didn't need it anymore. Yeah, happy to say goodbye. 

Rakhee Shah  54:53

That's it. And the other thing I think that was happening so I went back to sort of a bigger job in February of it. January. And, and also she started to spend sort of from from December she was starting to spend like whole days with other people with other caregivers that weren't nursery. So she was sort of starting to become confident I'm gonna go out with Granny and granddad today for the whole day. And she'd never felt confident to do that before she'd you know, I'd take her to take her there, but we'd always we'd always be together. So I feel like there was sort of, she was just also just becoming more confident in herself in terms of just being able to do other things. I guess without me maybe some of that was because I'd gone I was maybe a little round a little bit less. But I think it was also because she was just becoming more confident. And then I think all of that also just made her feel feel ready to say, actually, I don't, I don't need that anymore. 

Emma Pickett  55:53

Yeah, I just want to take a moment to say, you know, Little People don't become confident just because we're not with them. Little People become confident, because you had created an environment where she felt emotionally supported, where she'd felt listened to where she'd felt connected to you, you know, you had created that little person who helped feel confident and and I want you to take some credit for that, you know, she would if she was ready to say goodbye to that final feed. That was because you had created the environment where she felt her needs were met elsewhere. And that is something you should feel really proud of. Maybe you don't mind me saying that. Thank you wasn't just because you worked longer hours, I promise. There are people who work longer hours who have children that feed 20 times a night, and it's not it wasn't about that it was about that confidence came from something that you and Sandy had created by having that sort of dialogue with her and being emotionally supportive and, and helping her to not be frightened of big feelings, because you were showing him that also that they weren't scary. Do you remember your last ever feed? Tell us about that?

Rakhee Shah  56:53

Yes, it was. We'd gone to the beginning of May, we'd gone just to the beach for a night. And we'd done at night drive. And we got there and was the classic. She just woke up and thought, God, how are we going to how we're going to get back to sleep? I thought oh, let me just try more. So I tried it. And she was like, oh, yeah, okay. And then she hustled thing. She got out and it was she was almost like this is this is weird, mommy, she did have a little bit. But she didn't really want it. And that that was that was the last time

Emma Pickett  57:30

the last ever feed are very much a symbol of her not needing any more. You hoping for the magic that once happened. And she's like now doesn't mean quite the same. So it wasn't exactly, you know, little birds and butterflies and rose petals. It wasn't the sort of that magic final feed. It was a final feed that that showed you she didn't need it anymore. Did Did that feel okay? Or are you a bit disappointed?

Rakhee Shah  57:54

I think that I think I was ready. I was ready at that point for it to be for our breastfeeding journey to come to a close. And I was I was also really surprised and shocked and happy that she you know, for the end, she she was comfortable to kind of say actually, that's, that's okay, now, because I did have a lot of anxiety about, you know, how are we going to drop the last one. So it was nice that it didn't in the end have to, you know, to sort of to do that because she was like, actually, yeah, that's fine. I don't need that anymore. I don't know, I just don't know what the feeling was actually that day. Just like, oh, okay, that's, that's that. Just like that, I think in some respects, it's like, it's almost too, too short. You know, even though even though it was such such a long, you know, it was such a long journey took so you know, was a really from thinking about returning to actually even just making a start to then, you know, to actually starting to drop feeds. And even when we dropped you know, who started drop feed that then in itself, then was a long journey as well. So I guess she, you know, she'd been on the journey with us as her journey, isn't it?

Emma Pickett  59:11

Yeah, definitely. That's a good way of describing it. So I know some people who are in the weaning journey are worried about how is your relationship gonna change with your child? Or do you still feel connected to her? You know, the thing do you feel less needed and, and less significant? But I'm I'm guessing that because you've done all that sort of connection stuff with her. You didn't have those wobbles. How do you feel your relationship is today? 

Rakhee Shah  59:36

Yeah, I would say it's, I think, you know, you've kind of said that you may, you know, you've sort of feel feel different when you've when you've stopped breastfeeding, I would say, Yeah, I have had those moments. I'm like, oh, gosh, we don't we don't have those, you know, we don't have those cuddles in the same in the same way. But I would say that she She is she and herself is, is comfortable with how it is, you know, we still, I still pick her up like, once, you know once after nursery so I'm kind of very much with her and I'm lucky that I don't work for four weeks or so to get two days with her. So she we still have a lot of time together. And when we are together we try and like actively play with her as well like, you know, to sort of actively spend that time time with her and then it also bedtime is very close as well. So you know, we put her to sleep she doesn't go to sleep by herself. We you know very much put her to sleep or you know, we sort of, as I said like earlier Yeah, we you know, we do 1000 Kisses to she she goes to sleep with 1000 Kisses, often.

Emma Pickett  1:00:47

Sounds really special. So you mentioned that you sleep next to her. So how did it end up working out with her room? Are you in her room with her or she's sometimes coming through into your room for the night? Yeah,

Rakhee Shah  1:00:58

so we she goes to sleep in her in her room now in her bed, but I sleep next to her while she goes to sleep. And then she will wake up at some point. Sometimes it's 11pm Sometimes it's three, there's been a couple of times that she's made it through to the night. But whenever she wakes up, we'll just go in and get her and just bring her over with us. And then we just spend the rest of the night in our bed. And then she you know, then we just do the same thing again. 

Emma Pickett  1:01:29

Yep,  lovely bed juggling. I remember those days. Yeah. Moving around and shifting around and it works, doesn't it? It works and you're feeling okay. You're feeling rested, even though you're still often woken up, you do feel okay with how things are? 

Rakhee Shah  1:01:42

Yeah, yeah, I can still, I can still get back to sleep really easily. I'm quite a sort of quite a good sleeper in that respect. So it doesn't really, really bother me. And it's was to be honest, it's nice when she comes back in because the night of the few nights that she has slept through the night, obviously, that's amazing. But I'm like, Oh, she didn't come in.

Emma Pickett  1:02:01

Oh, like I really empathize with that. There are people listening to you going what you can't, you gotta be joking, after all, that you're missing it. But I can totally relate to that. Or that awful thing where you wake up and it's light outside and she's not coming in. You're like, she Okay, God, she right. It's funny, isn't it? How, you know, evolution does let us relax, even though we've got a full night's sleep. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your story. I'm really, really appreciative and, and, you know, you've you've really helped people to understand that the journey you've been through and an Eiler is such a lucky little girl, to have somebody who thought about things so carefully and went through the process. So, so thoughtfully and gently, I'd really hope you do feel proud about the journey you went through? Because I think it was, it was very special. And please say to Sandy, that I hope he feels proud to have the part he played into in supporting you and supporting isla. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you want to say? Or any messages you want to give to somebody who's struggling with breastfeeding and not sure whether to put boundaries in place?

Rakhee Shah  1:03:05

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, the final two things that I would like to say is, if you if if anyone's listening, and they are struggling with anything, because I think sometimes it can be quite lonely. You know, if you don't have someone to talk to about breastfeeding, I think the best thing is just to get some support, like, you know, I think maybe some someone might feel like, Oh, I'm breastfeeding, you know, a child that's a bit older. And actually, you know, it's not about the latch or, you know, that sort of thing. The thing is, it's, yeah, I think I would have really struggled if I didn't have the support, like, have your support. So, you know, you were instrumental to kind of get me through, and to kind of support me and to give me the confidence and the tools to get to kind of move through the next that the last year. And I wouldn't have been able to do it without that support. So I think it's really important to reach out and get that get that support. Because it's difficult to do, it can be difficult to do it all alone. And that yeah, the the final thing that I would just like to say is just a heartfelt thank you to you because you've just helped us so much. And as I said, like it, it just, it would have been a different journey if you hadn't been on the journey with us. 

Emma Pickett  1:04:30

Thank you for that mention, that's very kind of you, I will just say that I'm not the only person that works in this space. There are lots of other lactation consultants that would also support you. And if and if you've got a financial barrier, it doesn't have to be paid support. So a good local peer supporter should also be able to support someone through their breastfeeding journey and they're at the end of their journey. And the National breastfeeding helpline also supports you through the end of your journey and you can call that every day for all year round if you want to. So don't ever feel that you've got to do this by yourself. Um, when we when I put out this episode, I will also do another little request for buddies because sometimes I've put out little posts to see if someone wants to find a breastfeeding buddy. Because sometimes just talking to someone else who's going through the same thing at the same time can be helpful, even if they're not necessarily trained or a breastfeeding professional. As you say, doing this alone is hard. And it's really important, I think, to have someone to bounce ideas off and someone just to kind of talk you through it. So yeah, thank you for reminding me about the importance of the buddies and reaching out for others and I'm honored to have played a little part in your story. So thank you very much for sharing it today. Really appreciate it.

Rakhee Shah  1:05:35

Thank you for having me on.

Emma Pickett  1:05:41

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.