That’s so funny I forgot to laugh!
On this week’s episode, Emily and Tracie welcome Mallory Henson to talk about her reverence for the TV show Pee-wee’s Playhouse. Mallory introduces the sisters to the path Paul Reubens took to develop the character of Pee-wee Herman and how the show recreated the joyful chaos of a child’s mind while also teaching intentional lessons on acceptance and intercultural curiosity. While not everything has aged perfectly–there was a misogynistic and fatphobic joke from the first season of the show that stuck like a splinter in little 8-year-old Emily’s mind–it’s clear that Reubens was a loving and joyful entertainer who delighted in making his fans happy.
Connect the headphones, la-la-la-la, listen to the podcast, la-la-la-la
For more from Mallory, check out her Instagram
Content warning: Discussions of fatphobia
Mentioned in this episode
https://hommes.studio/journal/what-is-memphis-design-style/
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Find us on Facebook or Instagram
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
That’s so funny I forgot to laugh!
On this week’s episode, Emily and Tracie welcome Mallory Henson to talk about her reverence for the TV show Pee-wee’s Playhouse. Mallory introduces the sisters to the path Paul Reubens took to develop the character of Pee-wee Herman and how the show recreated the joyful chaos of a child’s mind while also teaching intentional lessons on acceptance and intercultural curiosity. While not everything has aged perfectly–there was a misogynistic and fatphobic joke from the first season of the show that stuck like a splinter in little 8-year-old Emily’s mind–it’s clear that Reubens was a loving and joyful entertainer who delighted in making his fans happy.
Connect the headphones, la-la-la-la, listen to the podcast, la-la-la-la
For more from Mallory, check out her Instagram
Content warning: Discussions of fatphobia
Mentioned in this episode
https://hommes.studio/journal/what-is-memphis-design-style/
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Find us on Facebook or Instagram
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and I are welcoming Mallory Henson to talk to us about Pee-Wee's Playhouse, so let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:So I am really excited and pleased to introduce Mallory Henson. I got a chance to meet her at the AWP conference, which stands for the Association of Writers and Writing Programs, this past February 2024. She was at a podcasting booth that was set up to look like Lucy's psychiatry five cents. I went over and was chatting a bit and told her a little bit about my podcast and her first question was have you done Pee Wee's Playhouse? And I was like, oh my goodness, I hadn't even thought of it. Just to give you a background, mallory Henson is a collage artist, poet, short form writer and vintage toy collector. Based in Southern Pennsylvania. She's been hoarding small objects. She was small herself and likes to spend her spare time hunting for treasure at thrift stores and yard sales. Mallory's biggest influences include Memphis, milano Style, pee Wee's Playhouse, clarissa Darling, stop Motion Films, the Evolution of Fashion, nature Writing and Postmodern and Surrealist Art she currently works on there's a Poem in that which was the podcast that had that wonderful booth, a podcast which turns strangers' stories into poetry. You can find her on Instagram as at PoetCetera. So, mallory, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:So we normally start off with just kind of. Whichever sister is presenting, we'll ask the other sister what she remembers about the particular pop culture. So Tracy and I are just going to kind of share what we know or remember about Pee Wee's Playhouse. Neither of us really watched it on the regular. It was one of those where, like, if it was on we watched it but we didn't make a habit of it. I recall the costume, like that slim gray suit with the red bow tie that Paul Rubens was the actor's name. Is that right that Pee Wee would wear? I remember that Lawrence Fishburne was a cowboy. I remember the I think it was a genie, the head in a box that would have a secret word, and anytime you said the secret word you're supposed to shout and, like, make noise. And there was a couch or a chair that was alive.
Speaker 2:It was a chair, yep.
Speaker 1:It was a chair. Um, I, I can. I know that I saw Pee-wee's Big Adventure, the movie about his bike, a couple, three times, cause I have more vivid memories of that. But that's. That's about all I kind of have in my in my head about Pee-wee. Herman Tracy, what, what do you remember?
Speaker 2:Um, I think maybe the reason that, like Pee-wee's Big Adventure is so much bigger for both of us is age a little bit, Because I had some friends right after college that were a little bit older than I who were really, really into Pee Wee's Playhouse and had like I want to say it was on VHS like a big block.
Speaker 3:Oh, I have it whole yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have a feeling that it might be age, that we were the right age for Pee-wee's big adventure, but not for Pee-wee's playhouse. But I have similar recollections. Those friends I actually watched it a few episodes with them, like right after college, so in the like late nineties, early two thousands, Um, and the thing that was like in my memory Peewee's playhouse is this sort of delightful sketch comedy like kids show that was not for kids and that's that's part of like, that's that's the brand that it has in my head. And then, of course, we can't talk about Paul Rubens without talking about, or at least remembering, that controversy with the movie theater which he he got called out for masturbating in a movie theater, but it was like a porn theater and I'm kind of like isn't that what those are for?
Speaker 2:Like I mean, I, I even at the time I was a fairly young adult I remember thinking like so I mean, anyway, I know that's not the way the broader culture thought of it, maybe in part because he had such a childlike persona as Pee Wee. So anyway, that's what I got. It's not a whole lot. I do remember the chair, cherry, the cushion.
Speaker 3:Cherry, yeah, her name was.
Speaker 2:Cherry. I do remember the chair Cherry, the cushion Cherry. Her name was Cherry Because the cushions were her mouth.
Speaker 3:I have a cherry kind of hanging out there in the corner, very cool.
Speaker 2:I remember the things Emily remembers you said the word and sometimes that actually in that voice, will come. I don't. I don't remember why, but even within the past month or so, like somebody said something and I was like you said the word. So, um, it's definitely in there as furniture, although I'm I'm excited to hear from you, mallory, someone who is, you know, more deeply invested in it, how it has shown up. But talk to us, why is this the thing that you were like, emily? Have you talked about Pee Wee's Playhouse? What's at stake here? Why is this so important to you?
Speaker 3:Well, so, interestingly, I never watched it as a kid or a teen.
Speaker 3:It was just not on my radar period and so when I discovered it it was maybe 10 years ago now, so this is a somewhat recent fixation and it just sort of encapsulated everything I think I wanted my childhood to be, because it was crazy, because I have a lot of siblings and my cousins lived with us as well, so there was a lot going on, but it was a lot of.
Speaker 3:You know, when you're in a group that you have to play to the group and you're around a lot of other people, so you're doing what the other people want and there's not a lot of room for you to be you necessarily. And also I have a twin, so you spend a lot of time growing up with another person sort of attached to you at all times, and it takes you a long time, I guess, to come out of that and figure out who you are as a person. And so I think I found Pee Wee's Playhouse at just the right time where I was figuring out who I was, and it just sort of somehow became like a touchstone to what I thought childhood might be or should be or could have been so it's. It's weirdly emotional for me, even though it's an adult fixation.
Speaker 3:That's awesome, that resonatesily, and I both have some adult fixations yeah this idea that when you become an adult, that you know you have to give up all the things from when you were a kid, which I think is absolutely ludicrous. And I've been a nanny for uh, I was like 12 years all in and I have nieces and nephews, and so it's a lot of like you have to embrace the child, because the children are there all the time, and I have tried, with every kid that I've watched or in my nieces and nephews, to be like okay, let me show you this thing that I'm really passionate about, and they're all kind of like yeah, whatever, like we want to go play Minecraft, leave us alone. Yeah, yeah, like, oh, you're missing out on color and craziness and just a chance to be whoever you are and be accepted for whoever that person is in any way, and I love that idea.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting because I definitely internalized the idea that you have to give up childish things as you get older, and so I have been so enamored of the fact that unicorns made a big comeback in like 2016, because I love them and I was at an age where I was like, okay, you know what, I'm old enough to not care, I'm old enough to not care that people are going to say like you're too old for that and that's, yeah, the embodiment of like I know you are, but what am I? Yeah, yeah, the embodiment of like I know you are, but what am I? Yeah, is really lovely just to be like. Yeah, you don't have to be. Just because you grow up doesn't mean you have to be a grown up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the fun doesn't need to get sucked out of your life when you turn 18.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, All right Well, so that's why it's important Bring us and our listeners up to speed.
Speaker 3:Like what's the deal with this show? I think the deal with the show is that it genuinely gives everyone permission to be who you are, in whatever crazy way that other people maybe like society at large, right Things you shouldn't be or things that are unacceptable or, interestingly, like the identities of people on the show and their experiences in life later on, like you can see, a lot of the actors like embracing this idea of being yourself and and finding the child in you and I don't know I feel so passionate about. I feel like you get really worked up when I'm trying to explain this to people, because when you tell someone, yeah, I'm obsessed with Pee Wee's Playhouse, it's just sort of like an eye roll moment and it's hard to get past because when it's the thing that's that big in your life and you're trying to share it with someone and they just don't care, it can be really difficult. So getting to talk about it is exciting for me, and now I've forgotten what the question was.
Speaker 2:That's okay. So remind us, like, who is Pee Wee, who are the people? Like, what's the playhouse, like what is the conceit of the show?
Speaker 3:So interestingly, the show never gives you any context for what's going on, which I think is great because it allows you to just jump in and whatever's going on, you just accept that that's what's happening. And it can be something like oh, we're all going to go and talk about going to the swimming pool that we never see. You know that the swimming pool is there. They go out to the swimming pool. It cuts to something else while they're swimming and they come back and so there's just all of these things happening on all of these levels that I don't know. I guess that it's what a lot of people would say is overstimulating about the show, is that there is so much happening all the time. But in my head that is what childhood is. It's all of these things sort of being thrown at you at one time, and I think that is part of learning how to adapt. So the show itself is quite crazy and intense and the only real structure to it is the secret word right and Jambi, who is the floating genie head in the box. He grants Pee Wee or someone else in the playhouse at other points a wish every episode, but otherwise it is just sort of madcap. There are these little repeating bits, like there's a stop motion like claymation character named Penny who's this young girl, and she just tells stories and it's animated over her stories. And that was one of the first things I saw that really got me into stop motion and claymation in general and I sort of went on this crazy rabbit hole with that.
Speaker 3:So now I've gotten very into seeking out any claymation art that I can find, because I think it is a medium that should be used more and I think the fact that Paul Rubens was using that at the time that he was was amazing. He was always just sort of slightly ahead of everything and dealing with a lot of things that were underground and wouldn't necessarily be available to children, but presenting it to them in a way that made them want to learn more about it. And I think that is one of, for me, the big takeaways from the show is that children are complicated and deep and crazy at the same time and want to have fun and all of those things can coexist in a single person. So the show itself gives people that permission and that chance to just sort of be who you are and create a community and be loved within that community, no matter what's going on. Create a community and be loved within that community, no matter what's going on.
Speaker 1:In addition to Peewee and then the zombie, who are the regular characters there's.
Speaker 3:Terry, who actually does have a voice. She's puppeteered and voiced by a woman named Alison Mork. And then there's Randy, who is a like a marionette puppet. He sort of drops down from the ceiling a lot. Cowboy Curtisis, who was played by laurence fishburne okay, in the first season phil hartman was actually on. He was brought over from the kiwi herman stage show with the groundlings as a character called captain carl, who just was always coming in from an adventure at sea, but he was sort of very gruff.
Speaker 3:There's a talking globe that rolls around on the floor named globy. So everyone is very sort of named after what they are. So cherry, globy, clocky is a clock that hangs on the wall in the second season onward and just doesn't really do much of anything but just interacts with people. The robot that gives the word of the day, conky reba. The mail lady there were two characters that sort of get flipped over from the first season and change into other people and some people from the first season that just don't exist.
Speaker 3:Later on there is someone who comes in to introduce the king of cartoons, who is the one that he has a little remote and he just clicks the TV on and you know it plays a random cartoon, usually just clicks the tv on and you know it plays a random cartoon, usually from like the 50s and 60s. There's a little playhouse gang, it's like three kids that come on. There's just it's characters upon characters upon characters. I think that's part of what is so entertaining, because you never know what's going to happen or who's going to show up and you wind up getting these like weird guest roles, like jimmy smith, who came in and played a repairman and I don't know. It's just it's a blast to try to spot people who would then go on to do things. Uh, natasha leone um, who everyone seems to know about now. She was one of the kids in the playhouse gang for a season. So you get these people that then go on to do crazy things and it's a blast to see.
Speaker 1:What's the history of the character Like how did Rubens come up with Pee-we Herman? In the same way, there was pearl clutching about Bart Simpson, where it was like what role models are we giving children these days? It's an adult pretending to be a kid or something I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Paul Rubens was very much inspired by sort of things like Howdy Doody and Pinky Lee, so things that he would have watched in his childhood and sort of internalized all that and thought like I can turn that into a character. But what if we combined that sort of with the idea initially that it was? It's so hard for me to explain because I feel like he's never been super open about a lot of things in his life, so he doesn't talk a ton about his past, and so you're sort of piecing things together from interviews and clips of things that I've watched. But the initial character was made as a, a character I guess in the groundlings, which is a comedy troupe that paul was part of with phil hartman and john paragon, who played john b, and lynn marie stewart who plays missy vaughn, and so they all sort of workshopped this character together and peewee started out as someone who was just like the worst stand-up comic of all time, like he would just come out with a bag of toys and like play with the toys, acting as a child on stage, and people really loved it, and so that sort of led to a much longer special called the peeee Wee Herman Show, which he did at the Groundlings Theater for a long time and then HBO recorded it and so that was played on HBO and I think that was a lot of people's like big intro to Pee Wee and that was so popular that that is initially what got him in the door to make Pee Wee's Big Adventure, which predates Pee Wee's Playhouse oh really. Adventure which predates pwis playhouse oh really.
Speaker 3:So it's just sort of in this slow, like what do we want this character to be? You know who am I and how much of myself do I want to put into this character. And then how do we make this character a children's character? Right, because they initially pitched him, you know, do you want to do an animated show? And he said, no, I want to do live action. I want it to just be a real place that people can feel like they're involved in. And so that you know, it was him and a couple of other people working on taking that character and sort of twisting it a little bit to make it something children could watch. And there are obviously things in the show that pretty adult but that you don't pick up on when you're young. The same way, you know, you watch Animaniacs and you don't realize half of what's going on in there until later, and I think that's what makes it so good is it works on so many levels. You can watch it at any point in your life and you're picking up on very different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the best because of what you just said about kids being deep and complicated. I think the best because of what you just said about kids being deep and complicated, I think the best children's television actually does appeal to adults, like there's a reason that our folks didn't mind watching sesame street with us, whereas barney was just, you know, unacceptable. So I think that and that really resonates for me.
Speaker 3:I hated that little bald kid in a weird way like a really spoiled kid, which Pee Wee's character was very spoiled as well, but just like expressing that in quite different ways.
Speaker 2:I want to hear more about. So where my brain is going with what you're describing, especially with like Cherry and Clocky and Globy, is sort of the permission to do that, to see kind of personality in inanimate objects and the imaginative play that that then um, that that that that encourages. So I want to go there and the other thing and we can put a pin in this or we can just delete my asking you about this altogether. But I can't help but think about spongebob squarepants when talking about peewee. Like peewee, in the way you're talking about him and me thinking about these two characters like spongebob feels almost derivative as this adult who he's living an adult life but he clearly is not an adult and the way that he interacts in the imaginative play and all of those things. So we can go there or not, but that's, those are the two places that my my brain is going as I'm listening to you talk.
Speaker 3:That's interesting. So I've not watched a ton of Spongebob. Some of the kids that I used to watch were very, very into it, um, and I think what bothered me about it was that I didn't like the animation style and so I found it really difficult to get into that. But I can be really snobby about my animation, so don't like, that's what I'm not saying. People should not watch Spongebob and the parts that I've seen, like the writing I always thought was quite good and the characters are really interesting, and it was again like this ludicrous situation.
Speaker 3:But you're buying into it, like you go there whatever they're going to do. You're like, yes, that's fine, let's take it to the next level. And I appreciate that about kids TV shows because, like you said, it is when you're working on multiple levels like that, it is something that you can then carry on later in life, like if you know, if you went back and watched and I've tried to do this a lot of shows that I loved as a kid, I'm like why? Why was this a thing and why was I so?
Speaker 2:obsessed. You can't go home again on some of them, it's true. No, that's actually what this whole project is about.
Speaker 3:I don't think that's okay to write. You learn something about yourself, about who you've become, when you stop connecting with certain things from your childhood. Um yeah, the flip side of that is sometimes you find something and you're like this is so genius and I didn't even know it at the time. Like clearly I saw something in it and I connected with that and that's great.
Speaker 2:But now I'm seeing it on a whole different level so just a quick aside for Spongebob, and then I'll, we, and then you can take us back to Pee Wee. We're old enough. Spongebob was out I was in my 20s but I loved it so much. I watched all of them and I introduced it to our parents and our mom and stepdad told me that they could only watch it with me because they didn't know when to laugh if I wasn't there laughing, because they didn't think it was funny. Because they didn't think it was funny, which I think is really, really I think is really interesting now, like thinking about generationally, because now my kid, who will be 12 later this month, you know, grew up with SpongeBob and that's like part of her sense of humor now, so that like she'll, we'll be doing something and then she'll go two hours later. It indicates to me that I'm taking too long, like that's how she and she'll do it in that like bikini bottom there, I think.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, our, our references, well, and I, you know just people's references in general, like sometimes it is, it becomes such a big thing in pop culture or just any culture in general, that like it is just a part of how we express things and I, I, I don't even think we realize we're doing it until you're looking back on, like oh, that's where I got that from, Like that's why that's a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Anyway, thanks for uh.
Speaker 1:I am one thing that I'm finding interesting Tracy about. Uh, like what you mentioned about, like the anthropomorphizing, like the clock and the globe and the chair and all of that and all of their names are just what they are which is totally how we named our things when we were kids.
Speaker 2:Exactly what it is, yes, and I always thought that meant I didn't have much imagination.
Speaker 1:No, but this. This shows like. No, you don't have to like.
Speaker 3:This is bartholomew, saint vincent, my globe no, but it is exactly, I think, working with kids and watching the parallels there, right, like the mannerisms that paul does in character, right, the choices that he makes the, the set of the playhouse, like how crazy and overwhelming it is. Like if you gave a kid like a room and a bunch of stuff and we're like, here you go, have fun. Like that is what they would do with it. Right, they would create these crazy things and they would give them lives and personalities.
Speaker 3:And I think that's such a a gorgeous thing to represent on tv because I don't know when you're in your head, right at any point, even when you're writing or trying to, you know, create art like it is a world that's going on inside of your head. And I think that a lot of times we teach kids that maybe they shouldn't like express that world or like, oh, if you have imaginary friends, like don't tell anyone. But no, like everyone's got these weird little things in them and there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's something to celebrate. And I think Peewee's playhouse does that. It gives you a safe space and a group of people who are going to love you and support you and I.
Speaker 1:That it makes me happy and it makes me feel safe so out of curiosity, do you know if there was any like, if Ruben's had any background in like education, early childhood development, or if the show used any uh like?
Speaker 3:it didn't, experts, no, and I find it interesting because that's such a like. You know you would have things like mr rogers, which was, you know, huge for me as a kid and that was like doing a lot of the same things that pewee's playhouse was doing, but in a very different way. And, and I think that was another thing I liked was, again, these are different ways you can experience your childhood.
Speaker 1:What's? In a previous life, I was a high school English teacher, and one of the reasons why I was curious to see if Rubens had any background in education early childhood development is because when you teach, you see just the sheer number of adults who have completely forgotten what it's like to be a child and who have, uh, and both adults who are like in teaching, in education, and then also like parents, who have these expectations of what a kid should be able to do or ought to do or anything like that. That causes quite a lot of unhappiness. It's very much getting better. My kids, the teachers that my kids have, have been much better trained than I was. My last year of teaching was 2010. So things have changed a lot, but just considering the fact that Pee Wee's Playhouse was out in the 80s to early 90s, is that about right? Yes, for kids, instead of, like you know, making something that he that adults think kids will like, or making something that adults think kids should like, is is just it's remarkable Cause he's a comedian.
Speaker 1:And like that doesn't you know, sure, comedians can be very much in touch with their inner child, but it's just knowing how rare it is, even in education is, is kind of amazing to me that he was able to do this, which explains it's, uh like, why he was able to make it into a stage show, into a hbo show, into a movie, into the fewies playhouse. I mean like, because clearly, two movies after that as well, oh, two more. I knew there were two movies, but I didn't remember the third.
Speaker 3:So there there was one that came out on netflix I think it was six years ago now, because I just got a facebook notification. Wow, it's like, it's just like he goes on a crazy road trip and joe manganello is in it and like plays his best friend and he works in the diner.
Speaker 3:It's completely ridiculous. But I think the other thing I like so much about Pee Wee is he just sort of takes these little moments that you know, I guess that anyone would have in their lives, and then takes that tiny thing and spins it off into something completely ridiculous and a crazy adventure they have. I've got this one idea and now I'm going to make it.
Speaker 1:You know, three hours worth of playtime and I think that's such a fun thing to do and like. If we would all just sort of spin out on our own as adults like, and stop being focused on being one specific way, maybe everyone would be just a tiny bit more fulfilled and happy. Yeah, trying to protect that playfulness in my kids. My elder son is, um, he's a writer and one of the things like, because I am a writer, he's like yeah, so when I'm 18, mom will help me publish this. I'm like okay, I want to give you like realistic views on how publishing works, cause it's not that simple. But I also don't want to give you like realistic views on how publishing works, because it's not that simple. But I also don't want to do like in the 80s, when I was his age and I was writing stuff. I'd get the like don't get a big head, you know, don't?
Speaker 2:you know like you're talented, but there's gonna be more talented people out there and, like you know, lower your expectations talented people out there and, like you know, lower your expectations, and so I think it's like that people are trying to protect kids from rejection. Yes, and then so they reject them, so they reject them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it's just like I really want to protect his joy in writing because, like Tracy and I've both talked about how fraught being creative becomes when you have this sense of like I have to do it right because there's so much writing on it. And and that's like, when I think of Huey Herman, I think of like his voice, because that's that's a kind of nasally voice that he put on, but I also think of like I don't know, just adventure, not just joy, like just the colors and everything moving around all at once, the dance, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, yes, the dance. Yeah, oh gosh, yes, the dance. There's one little bit on the show where he does that dance, but there's all. There is, interestingly, a lot of dance in the show as well, so like cut away to scenes and then miss yvonne will be, you know, and this is like there are some things on the show that have not aged especially well.
Speaker 3:Um, but I think for a show that was, you know, happening in the late 80s, like it's surprisingly progressive, and I think a lot of that is probably that you know, paul came from a background of theater and so he had spent a lot of time interacting with a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds, and I think he took that and realized how valuable that was, because it gave him a perspective on life that not a lot of people see, and I think it's something that sesame street also does incredibly well.
Speaker 3:Right, like, let's show kids a range of experiences and to learn that those experiences are valuable because you know when you exist in the world, the best way to go about it and the best way for everyone to learn is by knowing that not everyone's experience is the same.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I, I think the other thing, and I think about this a lot, especially over the last couple of weeks, cause it's just been in my head but like Paul was always very good about having a range of people on the show that that were very different from him, right, so he was. You know, there were a lot of people of color on the show and I I didn't see that a lot in my childhood because I grew up in a predominantly white area, and I think maybe if I had seen that it would have been easier to sort of dig myself out of that idea, I guess, of what life is for everyone. So I got my way there anyway, obviously, but looking back, like like man, that would have been a nice little, just a little thing to have there, the first bookend to move forward from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, intercultural competence is is really hard and essential. So, yeah, and, and I think the thing that Sesame street and I, and what I'm hearing you suggest Pee Wee does as well, is to view difference with curiosity rather than judgment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, curiosity and acceptance right, like that. It is okay to be different. Whatever that difference is Like, people don't need to be judged for it, even grow from that difference, because some differences are incredibly innate and some you will learn as an adult and some you will learn as a child. And that life is is all change, and accepting that change is sort of a very big thing, right, because that you know, when you think about peewee's big adventure that is, it's about him going out into the world from you know, a pretty small town where he's just got these relationships with other people, but then he's got to go and learn what the world is actually like. And I think that that is a lesson that everyone learns at some point that what you see of the world when you're young is not what the world actually is.
Speaker 2:So I want to come back to. You said some things didn't age well. Let's yeah, let's talk about that. What so? What didn't age well? Let's yeah, let's talk about that. What? What didn't age well?
Speaker 3:so there are just some I mean some jokes that don't playhouse is not especially bad in in terms of this. There's some things in some of the movies that I have some issues with, but I think sometimes I don't know there are terminology or a lot of like appropriation that I think was done, you know, from a place of not knowing or not understanding, right, Like let's wear this outfit that's clearly native to people of Hawaii and act like it's sort of like a big joke or just a fashion statement or whatever, and it's like it's little things like that. But when you start picking up on them, it's little things like that, but when you start picking up on them, it's kind of like okay, like I can accept that that's what that was, but I know that I don't not know but think that it wasn't coming from a bad place, but that later, like doesn't look great yeah.
Speaker 2:yeah sure, you know.
Speaker 1:I I have a very vivid memory of one gag where there's like a neighbor, I think, who wears her hair like a beehive or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Miss Yvonne does like the beehive. And then there are two neighbors in the first season there's one named Mrs Steve, and then in the later seasons there's a woman named Mrs Renee who comes over, who's like dressed very mod, Like all of her outfits are very sickly and floral. But the beehive would have been.
Speaker 1:Miss Yvonne, okay, so what I'm remembering, it was a woman who came over Pee-wee, wasn't there. There was cake on the counter. Yes, that's Mrs Steve, okay, and she cuts, like cuts a really big piece, yes, and then you see her put the piece back and eat the rest of the cake. Yes, I remember that. I wish I could remember why that stuck with me as so inappropriate, even as a kid watching that I was just like that, that's. That's really a rude joke it is and I think, I don't know.
Speaker 3:It's weird because a lot of the writing um paul approved everything but a lot of it was done by, uh john paragon and he did a lot of writing on the original peewee herman show as well. Uh, and, and Phil Hartman also did writing on the first season and I think that sort of peters out in later seasons and I don't know if it's because they realized, like you know, that that doesn't play well, that's not great and that's kind of contrary to the message we're trying to put across. But yeah, you're right, I hadn't even thought about that scene in a while.
Speaker 2:The first season.
Speaker 3:It's a little, it's a lot rougher around the edges than the later seasons and they were working in sort of a really small space and on an incredibly tight budget. And after season two everything jumps over to la and it just sort of, uh like spreads out and they actually do a whole revamp of the playhouse.
Speaker 3:Like that's the first episode, like, oh, we're gonna we're gonna make one of the playhouse and and that's where you get characters like clocky and flory that don't exist in the first season. But I do think that the first season as much as I love it and because it's the first peewee that I saw, I have like a really deep connection to it there are a lot of moments where I'm kind of like okay, like we could just a little less of that.
Speaker 2:Can we stay with this scene a little bit? Can we analyze?
Speaker 3:this a little bit.
Speaker 2:Let's spell it out a little bit more. Is Mrs Steed heavy?
Speaker 3:Is it a fat joke? It absolutely is a fat joke. She's also the character that is sort of out of touch with everyone else in the playhouse. They're all having a good time and she's just sort of not okay with them being a little crazy, um. And so she comes in and she's always sort of like trying to stop them from being who they are and whatever they're doing, not in like a telling them you shouldn't be doing this. But it's clear by her attitude that, like she's only there because she's in proximity to the playhouse and she feels like she can get something from it. I don't know, it's a weird dynamic, um, and she again doesn't come back in the second season, so you never hear anything else about her. But every time she is on screen it is this sort of like well, no one really wants her here, and so there is a disconnect between that and what I feel like is the messaging of Pee Wee's Playhouse later on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and layered into her, so I haven't seen it. So, but you know, the fact that this is a female character, the fact that this is a fat bodied character, there's like kind of layers of yeah, why is that? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that's a good point. Well, and that's I think that's what stuck with me back then is, um, I mean like because I, I was a kid, you know maybe 10, I don't know, 8 and or somewhere around there, but that that scene, like I couldn't tell you anything else about that episode, um, and like I was okay with because she was like as close to an antagonist as I, as I can recall their being um, and it's just like, oh, it's not okay for her to be coming into the playhouse when no one else is there and she's not been invited.
Speaker 3:It's not okay for her to help herself to food yeah, well, wait a minute trying to play it off, as, but it doesn't, that's not what you get from that moment, absolutely and I remember it.
Speaker 1:Like it surprised me when they did that and I was like, oh, that's actually kind of an obvious joke. Yeah, like, and and it stuck with me Like I've seen that joke many, many, many times since.
Speaker 3:I think it was a lazy joke, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yep, it's lazy. So and? And when you say that petered out in later seasons, what? What you're saying petered out is that laziness, that you relied on stereotypes.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, cause I don't know. I'm trying to think I've seen the episodes probably a good 20 times and I don't feel like there's any other point where they ever make a comment about anyone's body except to, you know, to say that they're loved in some way. So I'm I don't know. I'm wondering if it's they were trying to figure out what the show actually was at that point and they were still going for a lot of jokes that maybe they would have done on the peewee herman show, for example. But either way, it's not an okay joke to be making it all and I think it is probably just like oh, oh, yeah, that's a joke, we're going to put it in there, but should not have been.
Speaker 1:Well, that's also. I mean, it's a product of the time, like you know, if you look at any media from the 80s, there's a lot in there there's a lot of fat phobia, yeah, and like actually you don't even have to go that back that far.
Speaker 3:No, phobia, yeah, and like actually you don't even have to go that back that far. No, no, I mean I don't. It's interesting to me that that is like I'm not a skinny person at all and it's I. I don't know. I didn't internalize any of that from tv growing up, but I internalized it a lot from, like, people around me who were always you know, oh, I need to lose weight because that's what everyone was doing, and I just never understood that sort of approach. So I don't know, it's weird that that wouldn't have stuck with me when I saw that, but then I wouldn't have thought like that's not a good thing to have in a kid's show.
Speaker 1:What's interesting is, like part of the reason why it stuck with me was like when we were growing up I was the fat one. Yeah, like I don't know if anyone actually said that there might be some people in our family who did think anybody used that word yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think they need to, though. Nobody used that word, but that certainly was like of the pair of us Like, yeah, you were the cute one and I was the thin one, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we had a like a babysitter called me mucho piggo and miss piggy, um, and so like the thing is like I have in the past few years, I've been listening to like maintenance phase and and and like deconstructing quite a bit of of like that kind of furniture in my mind and realizing how, uh, like the bind of straight size, normal size women yeah, I don't like the bind of straight size, normal size women I don't like the word normal but straight size women who are not really really slender helps like reinforce all of this. And I know as a kid that I self-identified with fat characters because, compared to my sister, I was the fat one and I remember my parents at one point being like surprised at that where I was just like this is not okay, the way they're treating this character Like why do you care? And I'm like cause that character's me. And they're like no, no, she's not.
Speaker 3:And I'm like so that's my experience, right Like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so and some of that is just the the what's interesting about our culture and our society is that there is punishment for your body, no matter where you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So like, even with like I was jealous of Tracy because she was a thin one, but she, like I, was the cute one, and so like, and that was like we each were like policing ourselves and each other and everyone else we came into contact with. And that is like.
Speaker 3:That's why that moment stuck with me, because it was like that's proof of the policing it's not just in our little circle, it's not just our family, it's not just in baltimore, it's the whole world is telling me yeah, to have something that, objectively, is like not a pleasant thing to watch, right, but interestingly it taught you a lesson in some way, right, like it gave you representation of something that's going on and like I don't think that was intentional, like I don't think the writing made that happen, but that's huh it's what's funny, because that's like when you first were like, hey, talk about Pee Wee.
Speaker 1:My immediate memories are about like the suit and the laugh and like you know those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:But it's right underneath of there, it's like yeah that was a Pee Wee's Playhouse scene and so like it's just it's. It's interesting because it is so deeply baked into so much of our culture that it's almost invisible, and like I'm really glad to hear that that kind of lazy joke at someone's expense was like fell by the wayside, as as they continued on. You know, when you know better, you do better. As as they continued on, you know, when you know better, you do better. But uh, yeah, I remember thinking about the actress playing that. Yeah, because, like that, that was one of the things where I was just like that's gotta feel bad yeah, I always felt that way a little bit, watching like the drew carrie show, like with mimi's character.
Speaker 3:because, yes, I remember when I first started watching pb's playoffs, thinking like mrs ste, steve and Mrs Renee were like if you sort of combine them together, they were that character and so I don't know, huh, I think sometimes things pop into my head and I'm like, wow, now I gotta, really I got some digging to do. I I think internally myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and that's part of what we're doing with this project is just realizing how deep the roots go for a lot of these things.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. We've been talking for a minute and I would love, before we sort of wrap up, you came on to talk about Pee Wee's Playhouse, because you love it so much. Yes, and we heard I heard in the abstract, what you love about it. Yeah, and I deeply appreciate it. I would love if you would share your like number one, like what is the scene or the episode that you're just like? This is it? This is the epitome of why I love it.
Speaker 3:Like, describe that for us so that we can leave with like under better understanding, the deep affection that you brought to us so there is an episode, uh, in the first season, with this character named roger, who only ever makes one other appearance. But the whole concept of the episode is that roger is this giant monster and everyone is terrified of him because they've never met him before. And he's he's over the top, like ridiculous, sort of, like you know, six and a half feet tall, giant foam suit with a huge eyeball, like wiggly arms, and he just sort of hops around, so, like you know, at base level, like he's not threatening in any way, but he's something new. And he's not threatening in any way, but he's something new and he's an addition to the dynamic that, you know, no one's understood or experienced before. And so the whole episode is sort of about them learning why they're scared and that that fear just comes from lack of experience.
Speaker 3:And I, like I immediately was like no, this is like best episode for me, because that, I think, is a lesson because we were talking about that earlier that everyone does learn in their life, right, like just because something is different doesn't mean it's scary or something you don't need in your life. And so at the end they just, you know, wind up loving him and he becomes their friend, and then there's a sleepover episode, like four or five episodes later, and they're all just camping out on the playhouse floor and Roger's, like you know, wearing pajamas, and it's just like, yeah, now he's part of the gang and we love him, and I don't know.
Speaker 3:that, to me, is what this show is. It's it's community and understanding.
Speaker 2:Amazing, I love it. I love it. Okay, any anything that you were like when you, when we hit record today, you were like I got to make sure I say this thing that we haven't said yet.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I was trying not to overthink it because then I thought, oh, there's going to be too much in my head and then I will 100% forget it if I tell myself not to forget it. I don't know. I think the other thing was we were talking about the Memphis Milano style, that that aesthetic, and this is personal to me, like that sort of I, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I had to share my space growing up with a lot of other kids, and so I remember like first moving out, and it was around the time that I did discover Peewee's Playhouse, and so I was like, oh right, now I can make this space the craziest space that I want. No one will judge me and so I recently had to move back home and it's been really hard condensing like all of that insanity into like one bedroom. But I don't know. I think that I took Pee Wee as a way to express myself myself, and so I've thrown myself entirely into that. But it has broadened my perspective on so many things, like it introduced me to stop motion and claymation and just a lot of other actors and art styles and things that I wouldn't have known about prior to that, and so it's weird when you see one thing and then it just sort of opens up everything else in your life, and it's a strange feeling, but a wonderful one.
Speaker 2:That's lovely it is. It is All right. I'm gonna see if I can reflect back some of the highlights of what we spoke about and feel free to interrupt or add or nuance or correct as necessary. So we're talking about Pee Wee Herman, paul Rubens and especially Pee Wee's Playhouse that we did briefly mention, the movies as well, and sort of top line.
Speaker 2:Top line analysis that I heard from you analysis that I heard from you, mallory is that Pee-wee's Playhouse allowed kids and adults to think about and to embrace who they really are, even if that doesn't sort of fit inside the lines of what we've been told we should be. So, with Paul Rubens playing Pee-wee, should be so with Paul Rubens playing Pee Wee. So an adult as a child. One of the things, one of the effects of that, was to give kids and adults in your case, mallory permission to just be exuberant and joyful and imaginative in ways that our society has told us we're not supposed to be, because that's childish. So I'm saying this we didn't say these words before, but as I'm saying it now, in kind of thinking back on it, one of the gifts of Pee Wee Herman is to be childlike without being denigrated for being childish, and I think that's really really beautiful.
Speaker 2:Denigrated for being child-ish, and I think that's really really beautiful. Some of the specific ways that that happened are to like anthropomorphize things in our environment, like Cherry and Globie and Clocky, who had the names of what they are, which is totally how kids name their imaginative play. So there's also sort of a permission in that. That, emily noted, is not just permission but also like validation, because we have this sense that, like truly imaginative play would have the chair be named. You know what did you say? Winston, st Vincent, millay the third.
Speaker 1:Well, I also so I had a. I had a bear named Barry and and, uh, mom always used to say she thought I was. She was afraid I was a narcissistic because I named my baby doll baby Emily and I was like no, she had dark hair and light eyes like me. That's why she was like if she had had blonde hair or if she had not looked like me, I would have given her a different name, probably after someone who looked like her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally Totally. We also. I talked about the some of the resonance between Pee Wee and SpongeBob, sort of for a new generation, which the animation didn't appeal to you, mallory, but the writing is actually pretty fun, at least it was for me when I was in my, you know, in my twenties, and now, as pop culture does, it has informed a new generation of humor with my kid using the bikini bottom narrator, as we do with, you know, with Peewee or with other influences, where you know there are certain words that somebody says it in public. You said the word Emily. Remembered a very specific scene that was a lazy joke that leaned on both misogyny and fat phobia. That I think opened you know, opened your mind a little bit, mallory, thinking about that character and other characters like her in other shows. You named the Drew Carey show, but also you noted that that laziness was something that the writers outgrew over the course of the show, which is great. The actual visual style is appealing, especially for you, mallory, which is pretty fun and kind of.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna include a link in the show notes to the Memphis Milano style. Is that? Yeah, Because I looked it up after Mallory had sent us her bio and I was just like I'm not familiar with that term and our mom owned an art gallery for about 40 years, and so like, just like I'm not familiar with that term and our mom owned an art gallery for about 40 years, and so like, like I don't, my fingers aren't on the pulse of design, but I was like I usually feel like I'm relatively familiar with it and it it's just fun and it looks like nineties, early nineties, design 90s design.
Speaker 2:I think the place where I will end but it doesn't have to be the end is to talk about, really the episode that you brought. When I asked what epitomizes the show like why do you love it was all about sort of the coming of age, the learning, the lesson learning of recognizing that because someone is different doesn't mean that they are a threat and in fact they could be a friend. And how powerful it is then to be accepted if one is on the other side of that potential fear because of difference, with the person, of Roger the monster, who we get to see come back and wear pajamas at the pajama party camping out on the floor. And that message that is the first step toward intercultural competence I heard loud and clear is what made this show so compelling for you when you found it. What did I forget?
Speaker 3:No, I think you summed that up really well, much better than I would have, because I get very sidetracked, very easily.
Speaker 1:The only thing I would like to mention is just how remarkable it is that Paul Rubens was able to create this world that both recreated what children do in their own heads and also validated and gave permission when from experience, I know how rare that is, even among people who have studied childhood development, studied childhood development. That, to me, is is just amazing that a comedian had such a remarkable insights into either his own childhood or into the world of children in general, which I can understand why. That's part of why there was such a brouhaha about the moment in the movie theater, because he worked with children.
Speaker 3:But you know, I and I think there was a struggle to disconnect a character from a person, right or yes, a career from a life.
Speaker 3:Those are very distinct things to me. And yet you know, when you're in the public eye in any way, your character, what you're putting forth in a show or to promote a show or whatever like that gets tangled up in your life and people they don't know where to go with that Right. It probably takes them a long time to process and it you know Paul was really harmed by that Right. He the show had already ended at that point. So I think there's this big misconception that that's why the show ended. It's not, the show was already wrapped, but I think he didn't do any other projects for a very long time because of that yeah, and I really it's so sad, it's really unfortunate.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean like he's just such a talent and such a loving person. Like I a couple of years ago, my friends, during the pandemic, I was living on a farm in the middle of nowhere, like didn't drive, couldn't go anywhere, and I was just like deeply depressed and I had Instagram friends that I had made because of Peewee and one of them like got a group of my friends together and bought a cameo from Paul Rubens and it was just like the sweetest thing and you can see like the joy in his face knowing that something he created has touched so many people and I think that to me was like he. This is a kind, loving person who did not get a fair shake and it's so sad yeah, especially.
Speaker 2:I mean his crime is just not a crime.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, and that's that's also we so often force people to bifurcate their lives like we. We're like you. You know you can't be a human being with sex drive if you work with children. And it's like no, they're. As long as they're separate, they're separate.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just like in anyone's lives, you have different versions of yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know one one. My last thing that I want to say about Pee Wee's Playhouse, that is really. That just occurred to me. So Emily and I regularly refer to what we're doing as kind of recognizing and rearranging or understanding the furniture of our brains. That's the metaphor we use for what it is that we're doing, what it is that pop culture does it creates furniture in our brains, and so thinking about cherry in Pee Wee's Playhouse as literal furniture who talks, right, that talks. And I'm just thinking about that metaphor of like the thing is the reason we're doing this project, because not all of the furniture of our brain is as benign or even beneficial as cherry, like some of it, when it talks to us, says things like hey, fatty women don't get to, or it's not actually, it's not actually creative if you're being influenced, like that's what some of our furniture is telling us, and so I love having this like manifestation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this manifestation is the anthropomorphized version of our metaphor. That is so joyful. It's really making me happy, as I'm like as that's clicking into place in my brain, so anyway. So it was wonderful to have you. Mallory Henson is an artist and a thinker and we will link to her Instagram so you can go see the artwork that she makes in our show notes. So thank you again for joining us. I'm so glad that you and Emily connected at AWP.
Speaker 3:Oh, me too it's been a blast.
Speaker 2:Emily, I think you said you do have at least one listener comment.
Speaker 1:I have a listener comment that just delighted me. It's my friend Karen remarking on the Fifth Element. She said my dog is named after Leeloo because she is the embodiment of love.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, that's adorable, that kind of makes it. I mean, it doesn't make the movie okay. I think Karen's Leeloo is probably much closer to being a perfect being.
Speaker 1:I think you're right there. So, Tracy, next time you're bringing a new thing to me. What are we going to be talking about next time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so next time, next weekend, I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts about the Spice Girls.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's awesome. My fashion sense was basically forged in the fire of the Spice Girls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'll be talking a lot about the movie Spice World, but also just the phenomenon in general of the Spice Girls, because they were indeed a phenomenon, were indeed a phenomenon, indeed, yes, very much so. So that'll be next week, and we wanted to share with our listeners a new way to reach us. So tell, tell me about our our new Facebook page.
Speaker 1:So, yes, we have a new Facebook page deep thoughts about stupid shit. It's a S H T. The Facebook wouldn't let me do an asterisk and I didn't want to actually spell out shit, so if you do a search for deep thoughts about stupid Facebook, you should be able to find us. You can also find links through our personal pages Emily Guy-Burken and Tracy Guy-Decker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just remember, tracy spelled with an I, e and Burken is B I R K E N Correct. Yes, so also with an I E oh yeah, we're both with I E Tracy, with an I E Burken with an I E All right. Well, this has been fun. Thanks again, mallory, emily, I'll see you next week, emily, I'll see you next week.
Speaker 2:See you next week. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?