Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t
Deep Thoughts about the Addams Family
They’re subversive and they’re kooky, whimsical, sweet and spooky…The Addams Family! snap, snap
On today’s Deep Thoughts, Emily overthinks The Addams Family–specifically the 1990s era films starring Raul Julia and Anjelica Huston as Gomez and Morticia. The sisters examine how The Addams Family uses horror tropes and subversions to humorous effect and to shine a light on the truly horrific aspects of mainstream culture. Both films pass the Bechdel test with flying colors, and Morticia and Wednesday provide well-rendered characters that are a delight to watch. But the films do give with one hand (Morticia is a strong woman with agency) while taking away with another (she’s characterized as a good mother first and foremost). Join us as we talk about the most open and accepting family in pop culture.
Put on your headphones, cara mia, and take a listen!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
They’re subversive and they’re kooky, whimsical, sweet and spooky…The Addams Family! snap, snap
On today’s Deep Thoughts, Emily overthinks The Addams Family–specifically the 1990s era films starring Raul Julia and Anjelica Huston as Gomez and Morticia. The sisters examine how The Addams Family uses horror tropes and subversions to humorous effect and to shine a light on the truly horrific aspects of mainstream culture. Both films pass the Bechdel test with flying colors, and Morticia and Wednesday provide well-rendered characters that are a delight to watch. But the films do give with one hand (Morticia is a strong woman with agency) while taking away with another (she’s characterized as a good mother first and foremost). Join us as we talk about the most open and accepting family in pop culture.
Put on your headphones, cara mia, and take a listen!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be discussing the Addams Family and Addams Family values, the 1990s-era movies, with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:So, trace, tell me what you remember about the Addams family. You don't have to just confine yourself to the 1990s era movies. You could talk about the 1960s era TV show or the more recent additions to the franchise or the cartoons. Just tell me what you remember about Gomez and Morticia and their crew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the Addams Family are one of those pieces of mental furniture that are like there and relatively unexamined. They're very much there. I feel like we must have watched the TV show as kids. And I know I watched the 90s era movies Angelica Houston right oh yes. Yes, dad had a crush on her. Yeah, I know I watched the 90s era movies Angelica Houston right. Emerald Julia oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, dan had a crush on her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, who didn't right? Yeah, and my kid really enjoyed the new Wednesday TV show. I also liked it. It was, the mystery was good and the acting was fun Anyway. So but mainly when I think about the adams family, I think about super sexy morticia, like I found that whole thing it worked for me like you looks amazing yeah, yeah, I um definitely one of those moments where do I want to be her or do I want to be with her, not sure, maybe both.
Speaker 1:Yes. The answer is yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that that comes to mind, and also one of the things one of the few things that actually has been examined in in my constellation of Adam's family is the fact that it seemed absurd to our culture that a man would continue to be completely in love with his wife and, yeah, I'll just let that sit. Just let that sit because they're so subversive as a pairing. You know she's tall and slim and he's shorter and stouter, and you know she seems so sophisticated and he seems so not, but they're both weird and part of their subversion. You know they subvert everything, and part of their subversion is that they're still completely in love. You know they subvert everything, and part of their subversion is that they're still completely about. Otherwise it just has been sort of fun, like fun furniture, and so I'm excited to hear a little bit more analysis from you. So before we get there, why? Why are we talking about the Addams family today?
Speaker 1:So I remember watching the 1960s era black and white TV show, probably like in syndication on like Nickelodeon or something, when we were kids and it was not something I had any huge affinity for. It was something I watched when it was on. I liked the aesthetic, basically.
Speaker 2:Right, right. I think that's what I mean. I think that's exactly what I mean when I say that it's like definitely there, but not examined, and so that led me down the path of reading all of Charles Adams's cartoons.
Speaker 1:Like I bought a whole bunch of his old cartoons and really got into the original characterization of these characters. And now as for why I loved the movies so much, because there's 1991's Adam adam's family and I believe it was 1993's adam's family values that's the one with the baby right and, like fester, gets married.
Speaker 2:I watched that recently with you yes, we.
Speaker 1:My family has a tradition of watching it on thanksgiving right, so when I was there for thanksgiving.
Speaker 1:We watched it together um, and that's because there's a. It doesn't take place during thanksgiving but wednesday, and pugsley are at a sleepaway camp where they put on a play and the play is a Thanksgiving play, basically. I remember now, and so Pugsley, is the turkey going eat me. This is a really good insight into who I am in terms of my taste and style, in that I am a hopeless romantic, but with an edge.
Speaker 1:I love the idea of being like subversive and like very much going against what is considered feminine, what is considered family, but at the same time really clinging to the idea of we love each other and accept each other for all of our weirdnesses and encourage each other and all of our weirdnesses.
Speaker 1:So I think the reason why I just loved it so much and not just that the fact that Barry Sonnenfeld, who was the director and this was his directorial debut, the first Addams Family and then the writers, the entire film took it seriously by casting Angelica Houston, who is like Hollywood royalty, and Raul Julia, who was, like you know, shakespearean, trained, amazing actor as Morticia and Gomez, and making it clear this is not just a kid's movie, like we're taking this seriously and so like it felt validating in a way for me. So that's why I really, really loved it growing up and why I actually even though I know I would like Wednesday I haven't watched it, because I have so much affection for this version and I have so much affection for Raul Julia, who passed away very soon after Adam's Family Values came out, and so there's a part of me that kind of doesn't want to see another version, even though I have no doubt that Louise Guzman isn't it? Louise Guzman, yes, louise Guzman is amazing.
Speaker 2:He does a great job. Yeah, I have no doubt that he's amazing.
Speaker 1:You will love it. I'm sure that I will, and I think once I get into the right mindset, there's also some weirdness with, like I associate dad a little bit with the movies and then the fact that we're all Julia passed away and dad is gone. There's no, I have neuroses, but there's, there's. There's a lot in there that I very much just hold dear as a part of my childhood and then hold dear as part of who I am. As a person. In the the I call myself whimsical with an edge. Or there's a Tracy bought me a gift. It's a coffee mug that says, uh, I'm a ray of fucking sunshine and that that is that's why I loved Adam's family.
Speaker 2:She's a delicate fucking flower.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's why we're we're we're talking about it today. So it's a little tough to kind of get into the details of it because there are so many iterations and there's not really any. There are plots in the these two movies, but that's not really what matters. So I'll just kind of go through who the characters are and what we know about them. So the Addams family they live in this grand old mansion that is like covered in cobwebs and looks dilapidated but is like this gorgeous grand old mansion. The family is Gomez, who is the father, who has this pencil mustache and dresses in like silk dressing gowns or jackets, always dressed to the nines and pinstripe suits. I feel like, yeah, yes, yes, pinstripe suits are very much from the Charles Adams. It's when he's lounging he'll wear a dressing gown.
Speaker 1:Gomez is deeply in love with his wife Morticia, in this version played by Angelica Houston, who is this tall, statuesque, very pale, beautiful woman with long flowing black hair and always wears a long black dress that is kind of form-fitting and has like a train that kind of follows behind, and always bright red lipstick. She is just style goals. So those are the parents. It depends on which version you're watching. But there is Uncle Fester, who, in the versions that I grew up with, is Gomez's brother. There are other versions where he's a great uncle. There's other versions where he's related to Morticia, but Uncle Fester in these two is Gomez's big brother.
Speaker 2:And that's.
Speaker 1:Christopher Lloyd. Right, it's Christopher Lloyd. Yes, he is pale, bald, wears like long tunics that look almost like a dress. Jackie Coogan, who played him in the 1960s version, is the one who started thing where he'd put a light bulb in his mouth and it would light up.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize that that's cool yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he also Jackie Coogan's version. This is something that I remember very distinctly because I thought it was cool would sleep on a bed of nails. That was his bed. So there's Uncle Fester. Then Morticia and Gomez have two children, eventually three. There's Wednesday, the eldest, who is their daughter, who has black pigtails and wears like a black dress with a little white collar white Peter Pan collar and who has always a like flat affect, like she never smiles. Then there's Pugsley, her little brother, who is usually shown wearing a striped shirt. He's a little bit I don't know how to describe it, but he's a little bit husky. He takes after his uncle Fester a little bit. And then they have a third child, which is actually also directly from Charles Adams, that they named Pubert, as in puberty Pubert.
Speaker 2:Pubert Wednesday Pugsley and Pubert Pubert, poor Pubert.
Speaker 1:And Pubert has. He takes after his father. He's got a little mustache, Mustache. He's got the mustache.
Speaker 2:Like as a toddler.
Speaker 1:As a baby, newborn, new, newborn. He has a mustache. And then there is again it depends on which version you're watching. There is mama, or grandmama, depending on who's talking to her. Who is in the movie versions that I I saw morticia's mother, who lives with them and likes to cook. She likes to cook things that are pretty awful eyeballs and things like that. And then, rounding out the family, there is Lurch, who is their manservant. He's played by Carol Stryken, I think is how you pronounce his name, who is a seven-foot-tall Dutch actor, character actor in this version. I don't know who played him in the 1960s film TV show, rather. Then there is Thing which is a disembodied hand, which that was one of the really big like of the 1990s was that thing was actually could move around, whereas in the 1960s he was just like in a box.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would hand over like thing the mail please. And that was it. And then there's some other, like Cousin.
Speaker 1:It makes a cameo basically in both films, cousin, it was just covered in hair, like just hair long hair yeah, yeah, with a, usually with a hat and then, when speaking, was like, which I do not recall if that is something from the cartoon or if that was made up for the tv show and then recreated in the movies. So that's the cast of characters. Charles Adams wrote these characters as in the way that we see them on screen, which is they are this cohesive unit who see nothing wrong with the way that they live, but they get a lot of not pushback live but they get a lot of not pushback. But people are horrified to see how they live.
Speaker 2:So they are living in the real modern world and it just is. People are dumbstruck by the way they live and they don't like there's like no, no code switching, like they don't know why. The other people like that's part of the charm of it. Like I remember, was it from the 90s movies where, like, she's wednesday selling lemonade and someone says, does it have real lemons? And then the other person wants to sell girls tell us all her girl scout cookies and she says, does it have real girl skills in it? Was that the 90s? Yes, yes, I vaguely remember dad being really tickled by that joke.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, there's a similar one in Adam's Family Values, where they're introducing the kids to other kids at the camp and parents are there dropping everybody off.
Speaker 1:And so Morticia says about Wednesday, oh, she's at that really special age where girls can only think of one thing and the mother of the other child goes boys and Wednesday goes murder, and Morticia just looks on fondly yeah, so it's a very classic kind of fish out of water, no code switching. It's that very classic kind of fish out of water, no code switching, and the complete lack of caring that other people don't understand, like, and it's unclear whether they notice and don't care, or if they just don't even notice. Like that is. It is not entirely clear, and that's part of the charm of it as well. You know it's is like are they, are they in on the joke, or are they not? It doesn't matter they, they are 100% themselves and they're happy to do, happy to be themselves. So that's that's something that I think is delightful and like was a great lesson for kids in the 60s and the 90s and today was like be yourself, 100% who you are, go for it.
Speaker 2:It's great. I don't this. This maybe isn't the right spot for this, but I just can't help. But, like I recently saw on Tumblr, like this tiny little snippet that was like a Addams Family Frankenstein crossover, that Lurch is actually Frankenstein's monster. Did you see this? No, no, somebody was suggesting it was just a Tumblr post, but they were suggesting that, like Frankenstein's monster, you know, was running from people and they were yeah, and then, you know, he found the Addams and they just were like oh, hey, you want a job. And then he became part of the family and like, yeah, like he found his people, and like how special that was, and like other tumblerinas were just like wow, I never thought that you know that this would be what would tug at my heartstrings, but like something about like finding your people, yes, Well, and in fact this is something that I've seen a couple of times.
Speaker 1:So in Adam's Family Values which, by the way, was making a joke on the fact that Republicans were, and I can't remember who it was but someone said you know, the reason why there's problems in Los Angeles is because we've lost touch with family values, and I'm sure you remember that. I remember that, but like people nowadays who were children at the time or who weren't even born yet, would not recognize the irony of that name.
Speaker 1:The topical nature of it. Yeah, but in that film Fester meets and marries Joan Cusack's Debbie Jelinski, who turns out to be a serial murderer. She's a black widow who turns out to be a serial murderer. She's a black widow. She finds lonely rich bachelors, marries them, kills them on the honeymoon and takes their money. And she's unable to kill Fester because he's an Adams. And at the end she is confronting all of the Adamses and she has them up in their attic where they have like an electric chair and she's got them all tied and with whatever you call that cap on and she's about to electrocute all of them and she's telling the story of how she became a serial murderer. And they are so supportive, they are so sympathetic and if she had been able to just stop for a minute they would have been like you're one of us, join us. They actually have no issue with the way that she is torturing Fester. Their problem is Pastel. Really, without making him dress in the house that he is Like, I can forgive all of the taking our brother away from us and torturing him in a sexual haze and killing all of these men and, you know, using your body to manipulate. All of that is so forgivable. But Pastel, really, all of that is so forgivable. But pastel Really. And so like it kind of shows that the issue with Debbie is that she was trying to fit in in mainstream culture and if she had just embraced who she was, she could have found a happy family in the Adams Oy, yes, family in the Adams Boy yes.
Speaker 1:So there are a couple of things I want to talk about in regards to specifically these two versions of the Adams family. All right, let's hear it. So let's start with, like what you were talking about about the fact that they are a happily married couple. Now, fact that they are a happily married couple. Now, raul, julia does not look like Chaz Adams's drawings of Gomez. And, by the way, actually none of these characters had names until the 1960s TV show. They were just recurring characters in Charles Adams's because it was one panel strips. It was like psych gags basically Right.
Speaker 1:So and the Levy David Levy, I think, is the name of the guy who, who was the showrunner for the original show. He collaborated with Charles Adams and got Charles Adams to name them. Oh, I see, so the names are canon. They are canon.
Speaker 2:I mean they'd be canon anyway. They're from Adams.
Speaker 1:Yes, they're from the originator. The way that Charles Adams had drawn Gomez was not necessarily a very handsome man. He's a bit shorter than Morticia, he's a bit stout, and actually Luis Guzman is like kind of a dead ringer yeah, the cartooner, yeah, the cartoon version, yeah, whereas Raul Julia is just beautiful. He is just a beautiful man. Yeah, like I didn't realize because I was so focused on how gorgeous Morticia looks, but they are just a beautiful matched set.
Speaker 1:So, and then there was the man who played Gomez and I'm not going to remember his name in the 1960s looked a little bit like Raul Julia, he was similar, he was slender, might have been shorter than Morticia, I'm not sure you know pencil, mustache, pinstripe, suit, all of that. So there was a little bit of subversion in the cartoons that you kind of lose in these two film versions. But you're absolutely right, especially in the 1960s, the idea that a long married couple is still so in love where, like, all she has to do is say something in french and he starts kissing her, her hand all the way up her arm and she's super into it too. This is not like get off me or anything like that they they just really, really are into each other, which is lovely.
Speaker 1:I really do appreciate that and I appreciate that. The subversion is that, like you know, mainstream culture expects men to be be henpecked or miserable or cheating or whatever, and it's interested in some way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I I appreciate that where it's like kind of pointing out like how toxic that is in the mainstream culture. There was a joke in the Addams Family that I had no memory of. I rewatched it last night. That undercuts that. It's just one joke, it's a throwaway.
Speaker 1:So the Addams Family movie, the plot is that the Addams' longtime lawyer played by Dan Hedaya, his name is Tully Alford. He's married to a woman named Margaret. They're very unhappy. Like there's a regular meeting where Tully meets with Gomez to go over finances and accounts and monthly expenditures and things like that. Margaret is like haranguing Tully telling him like you know, you need to make sure that you are, you know, get some money, blah, blah, blah. These are your last clients. And she says to him why did I marry you? And he responds because I said yes. Why did I marry you? And he responds because I said yes. So the joke being that she asked him and so that very much undercuts the lovely message of like it is possible to have this equal relationship in marriage because it gives the sense that like, but only if he asks or something.
Speaker 2:Let me just make sure I'm hearing what you're saying. So you're suggesting that the message in Tully and Margaret is that a woman who leads causes an unhappy home? Yes, and that that's the message. It's really undercutting this, the potential. So so the idea then, I think, taken together I'm sorry, I'm just spelling this out to be clear Taken taken together, the suggestion is like this this long-term loving relationship is possible only when she knows who wears the pants yes, and you see that again in um adam's family values, because debbie pursues fester right, right, and she's a psychopath and she's a psychopath, um, who messes up the potential for their happiness because she's focused on mainstream success and mainstream acceptance, whereas if she had followed Fester's lead, they could have been happy.
Speaker 1:They could have been happy. You also get in the first film. At the beginning of the first film, fester has been missing for 25 years. Gomez and Fester had gotten into a huge argument and Fester left and then he's been gone for 25 years and they believe him to be dead, and so they have a seance every year on the same date to try to get in touch with him from the beyond. Tully, who knows Gomez and has seen pictures of Fester, one of his clients, who is a con artist. He meets her son, who is a dead ringer for Fester, and it turns out it's because it is Fester. He has amnesia and apparently originally, the original way they wrote it was that he was going to be an imposter. He just turned out to be a good person, but all of the cast did not like that and they had Christina Ricci, who was 10, go and make the case to Barry Sonnenfeld, like no, he should really be Fester. He should be the Adams that we know he is, which is adorable.
Speaker 2:She's in Wednesday, by the way. Christina Ricci is in Wednesday, by the way, is she? Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic, yeah, she's like a teacher at the school for supernatural people.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, so the mother, in that her name is Abigail, but she goes by, she pretends to be someone named Dr pindersloss, so, but abigail is this overbearing mother who is, is manipulative towards fester, who she calls gordon. So the all together you not a great view of women, but with that said, morticia is a phenomenal character. The film passes the Bechdel test. There are multiple women with names and they speak to each other about men and other things Like there are many things that they discuss.
Speaker 1:So there's a part of Adam's family that really stuck with me from the time I was a kid, which is when basically what they do is, since Fester is the older child in the Adams and the way that the entailment works for the for the Adams family estate is the executor is the oldest living Adams relative, and so that means basically Fester owns everything once he comes back, and so they kick him out, uh, kick out the Gomez and the rest of the family with Tully's help. There's a judge who lives across the way, who hates the Adamses, so like he refuses to the appeal, and so the Adamses are living in a motel trying to get by after having lost everything, and Gomez is just hilariously depressed like shit's creek.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, and in fact, rawl julia. I saw something he said. Uh, he loved this script, in part because gomez is such a dynamic character. Even his depression is dynamic, huh. So there's a point where everyone is sleeping except for Morticia, and it's this tiny, tiny little motel room with only two twin beds. And so Morticia and Gomez are on one twin bed. Grandmama and Wednesday or another there's like just naked springs on the floor, lurch sleeping on that and Pugsley sleeping on top of him, and then a thing on top of Pugsley. And so Morticia, with the sun, the moonlight across her eyes cause that's how she's always lit Morticia is looking around at her husband, her mother, her children, her, her beloved friends, and it's like this is, this is unsustainable, this cannot be.
Speaker 1:And so she walks back to the mansion and says I need to speak to Fester and it's the. I mean. For one thing, it's like 90s films you don't necessarily see female agency, but the strength of this character and I know it's a ridiculous movie, but the strength of this character in saying I know it's a ridiculous movie, but the strength of this character in saying like I need to make this right and I will do what I can. They also have a hilarious moment where she is at a jobs agency trying to find work and it's the fish out of water thing, where she's in the all black and pale and it's just a normal woman and the woman is saying like well, you know, it's okay, your work as a stay-at-home mom has lots of value. I'm sure we can find something for you. So the next thing you see is her at preschool reading Hansel and Gretel to the children and making them cry. She also is the one who's like we're not in a great place. Things are not what we wanted them to be. Our beloved brother has betrayed us and we've lost our home. But you know what we are, adamses. We can do this so, like you definitely are given with one hand.
Speaker 1:With Morticia, I mean, she is strong and smart and loving and just wonderful. She's a wonderful character who at every turn wants to ensure the well-being of her children and her family, including in Adam's family values. When Gomez, he gets depressed again because Fester refuses to see him after marrying Debbie and the, everything starts to go through this transformation where the baby goes from a dark haired with the mustache to having blonde curls and big cheeks like rosy cheeks and, uh, like the. The nursery is no longer all black. It's now like, you know, clouds and and, and you know what you expect a normal nursery to be.
Speaker 1:And you see morticia reading to pubert I think it's the cat in the hat and so she's reading it and she's like so upset to be reading this normal book. And she's like, do they die? Alas, no, but she keeps doing it because her child likes it. It's so positive, it's a ray of fucking sunshine. She does what is going to be best for her family, even if it's difficult for her or painful for her, and she, at every turn, completely accepts the people she loves for who they are and does not ask them to be anything else. So even when Gomez is upset or depressed, she doesn't try to push him to be anything other than what he is she. She tries to figure out a way to improve the situation. So yeah, that was a long way of saying it's a little mixed on women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, I mean, it's a little mixed. On women, yeah, okay, I mean, I do think it's worth noting that even the positive one that you, that you're lifting up, is a mother, right and the way that we see that she's positive is that she sacrifices for her family which is a very specific and limiting positive role for women.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's it's, that's. That's a tough one for me to unpack in some ways, because I have known since since toddlerhood, that I wanted to be a parent. Since toddlerhood, that I wanted to be a parent, Like there was. There has never been a moment of doubt in that for me. Like I'm not someone who was like, oh okay, well, people have kids. I'm not like I feel pressured to have kids. It was like this is part of who I am and I cannot imagine my life differently. And had I not been able to have kids, I would have had kids around me in some way. That sounds creepy.
Speaker 2:I gotcha, I gotcha.
Speaker 1:Not like Hansel and Gretel, like a witch type way. I would have found ways to incorporate parenting into my life even if I had been unable to be a biological parent. So so that makes it tough for me to unpack these limiting positive views of women, because I so strongly identify with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I hear, I hear that, I hear that. And also like I can't imagine my life any other way. I can't imagine my life any other way, and also like it's not the be-all and end-all of who I am, and I think that's that's the way I relate to unpacking it a bit is that there are other ways that even mothers can be strong, but we don't get that from this specific example. I guess that's what I'm feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there is one scene that I had forgotten and I loved in Adam's Family. They go to the children's school. Kids go to public school for like there's a a play is what they call it, but it's. It's basically a sketch show because they've got a bunch of kids singing and then pugsley and wednesday wednesday have put together a like fencing scene from shakespeare. That fester helps them to make like completely bloody it. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1:So they get there and Wednesday's teacher grabs Morticia and says oh, I was hoping to talk to you. Wednesday's a wonderful student, she's a real asset to have in class. But I am a little concerned. And so she shows there's a wall that they have put together where everyone brought in a picture of a hero, and so this was 1991. So George HW Bush was president. And it's like see, for instance, little Katie brought in a picture of the president. And Morticia goes oh, have you spoken to her parents?
Speaker 1:The teacher just kind of like moves on. She's like well, and this is who Wednesday brought in? It's Calpurnia Adams. And she's like yes, that was her great, great, great grandmother. She was burned at the stake as a witch because she had I think it was like seduced three priests and so, and Morticia is like and so Wednesday is just so taken by the story of our ancestress, and then she goes. But I've told her college first. Like I'm sitting there going like, ok, well, if I were an elementary school teacher I'd be like rock on, we'll say yes, and again it's that that subversion. It's like the like. Isn't it adorable that the president is their hero? I'm like, you know, it's a 10-year-old. I'm not expecting them to have any kind of understanding of geopolitics, but you know, having an ancestor who was burned at the stake for having seduced priests, that is kick ass.
Speaker 2:But college first you know it's really interesting. We have talked many times on this show about the fact that both horror and comedy subvert your expectations. That's, that's how they work. The, that's the mechanism, is subversion for both horror and for um comedy. It's interesting that these characters, who are not horror insofar as they horrify they don't, but they do kind of wear the trappings, the accessories of horror and then are used to comic effect.
Speaker 2:I'm finding that very interesting that the the Adams family are kind of trying to hold both of those two examples of subversion which is really interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's. What's fascinating is that it forces us to look at what's horrific about mainstream culture. Yeah, what's horrific about mainstream culture? Yeah, Like the fact that Morticia says oh, have you talked to their parents about the picture of George HW Bush, which, if you have any knowledge, what the like? That's a fair question.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Right, right it's. Also. There are things that the Adamses do that are really not not socially acceptable, not because it just doesn't fit mainstream, but because it's just kind of rude. Gomez likes to do is he hits golf balls off the roof of the mansion and they often go all the way across their, their cemetery and their pond and like through the window of the judge's house and like the first one we see lands in his bowl of cereal in the morning. So you know, on the the one hand, like what the Adamses do doesn't hurt anyone and so people need to just stop being so, so uptight about it, on the other hand, this guy keeps having to replace his windows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not cool, like that's rude.
Speaker 2:Right, right, you know I'm thinking about the animated version that came out a couple of years ago that we watched at my house and the sort of leaning into the you know subversion of what's toxic about mainstream cultures.
Speaker 2:That's like the through line on that one right where they're in this, this sort of planned town that the mansion kind of sits over and there's this character who's kind of like like a really mean martha stewart, like a really mean Martha Stewart, like a really mean and controlling Martha Stewart and it's all on TV and Wednesday befriends this woman's daughter and this kid is just like totally controlled, based on what it will look like. But it turns out like everybody has weird secrets, you know, like the one woman who likes to keep her underwear in the freezer.
Speaker 2:I guess she likes it, it gets hot she just likes cold underwear, I guess, and like like different things in the yeah, the, the mean, martha stewart has cameras and everybody.
Speaker 2:Because it's like a planned community and so she gets kind of run out of town and they all, they all embrace the adamses. But but that kind of through line of their extreme weirdness, revealing the toxicity of mainstream culture, especially vis-a-vis how it appears to other people. Yes, right, like the atoms, the existence of the atoms completely undercuts and and their happiness and they're like what you pointed out, like they're embracing of who they are, completely undercuts the notion of keeping up with the Joneses.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, absolutely, and the fact that they don't have to. So one thing that I found interesting that I had kind of forgotten about the first movie until I watched it last night is it's very clearly a pastiche of many of Charles Adams's single panel cartoons. So there's a lot of sight gags that are just Charles Adams's, including. At the very end. It is Halloween and they're having a little party and they're like well, what should we play? It's Halloween, should we bob for apples? And Fester says let's play Wake the Dead, go get your shovel, because digging's half the fun, because they have their family cemetery is right next to the house. So, as Fester and the children and their cousin, it ends up marrying Margaret, the one who was married to Tully, who'd asked him. Tully ends up dying and so Margaret has met Cousin it and is taken by him Anyway. So they're all off doing that and Morticia has been knitting and at the door, like Gomez and Morticia are watching them all play Wake the Dead. And Morticia says Gomez, I have news. And she holds up what she's knitting and again, this is a straight out of Charles Adams. It's a baby onesie with three legs. And Gomez is delighted. He's like, is it true, and she's yes, and they dance with them, kissing, and so like that, right there, there's something so subversively wonderful about that because, like, she is knitting something with three legs, so they are not having a normal baby. Now they end up having a normal baby, but they're not necessarily having a normal baby.
Speaker 1:That's what Charles Adams was doing in the, in the original cartoon where he drew that, and Gomez and Morticia couldn't be more delighted. They don't know what it's going to look like. She thinks it's going to have three legs and she's delighted, you know. And so like that to me is I wonder if the Adams family is beloved, if it's meaningful to the LGBTQ community, because that is showing like what parents who truly love each other and love their children would react to whoever they end up getting, and would be perfectly like if Wednesday were to, you know, at 15, say you know what? I want to be Odin, and cut, cut their hair and change their pronouns. They'd be like capital, old man, yeah, have a cigar. They'd be delighted Like does that make you happy? Fantastic, so like that's. I think that is part of what makes it so like wholesome horror, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And the fact that talk about pointing out the toxicity of mainstream culture, like the fact that it takes this, this super weirdos, to completely accept one another and their families yes, it's super weird to do that it's, uh, you know, like what will people think, and that is, and that's actually, as I mentioned in adam's family values.
Speaker 1:That's really debbie's sin is she cares what people think. Rather than that, she's a homicidal maniac.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well, we have been deep thinking for a minute. Did we cover what you wanted to cover about the Addams family?
Speaker 1:I do want to talk a little bit about diversity is a little odd Now, granted, it's about a family. So you know, and I did notice the there is a party that they have in Adam's family where they invite the entire Adams clan and there is a black member of the family, one so, which I won now in 1991. That seems pretty, pretty big just having that person in the background yeah, and snoop dogg played cousin it.
Speaker 2:No, oh, in the new one, sorry. Oh, okay, in the animated thing, snoop dogg.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was gonna be like no, it's john chamberlain, I think sorry yeah, yeah, I definitely snoop dogg in the animated he voices it sure does he still do? I don't remember, so there's. There's that aspect of it that I wish were a little bit different. Now, to be fair, though, gomez has always been Latino Right.
Speaker 2:Even though his last name is Adams.
Speaker 1:Raul Julia is Puerto Rican. Yeah, Okay, Now I don't know if the man playing Gomez from the 60s was white or Latino or what, but I mean that is something that Charles Adams wrote into or drew into his characters.
Speaker 2:And he named him Gomez.
Speaker 1:And he named him Gomez, so he had this in mind from the beginning. That is one thing I do wish we had seen more of, and you do see a little bit more of it in Adam's Family Values. There's a joke where the Camp Chippewa, where the kids go, is very much like sunshiny, happy, like all blonde and blue eyed kids, except for the outcasts, and they make it clear like there's a kid whose name is Esther and is clearly coded as Jewish, there's a kid who gets around in a wheelchair, and then there's a kid who is black and the the head of the camp, named Becky. She's like Jamal. Jamal, I'm sorry, I don't know how to pronounce your name.
Speaker 2:As if it's a hard name, that's funny.
Speaker 1:So so there is. There is a little bit of acknowledgement of the world and Jamal and the rest of the outcasts are part of Wednesday and Pugsley's crew.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So there is that sense of like you're welcome in the Addams family too which is lovely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it would be nice if there was more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, all right, should I try and synthesize back to you? I would love that. I'll try with just sort of the facts that it's interesting that this franchise I'm not sure what to call it this franchise has such an interesting history of iteration, from single panel sight gags without names, from Charles Adams, through a 1960s TV show which we both remember watching, probably in syndication on Nickelodeon, through these 1990s films which were very important to you, and now there was like an animated thing that I remember seeing, and there were there's two recently actually, because I remember my kid really liked them and now there's this show, this Netflix show, wednesday that's Wednesday, that's streaming. So obviously there's something about this concept, these characters, that people find appealing, compelling. You have suggested that what might be compelling about them is the ways in which they are so fully themselves and fully accepting of other people's selves, so that do they not know that other people think they're weird or do they not care, does it matter? They are fully themselves and they accept one another completely, so much so that just at the end of our conversation you pointed out that the so-called outcasts at the summer camp were kids who were not white, het, cis, able-bodied Christian and were accepted as Adams, more or less Adams, more or less.
Speaker 2:The sort of picture of women that we get from the Adams family is a mixed bag, because on the one hand we have Morticia Adams, who is gorgeous and powerful and loving, and on the other hand we have examples, especially from the 1990s movies, of women who when they attempt to be leaders, especially in romantic pairings, things go poorly and or they are viewed as somehow less than worthy.
Speaker 2:We talked about the ways in which the Addams, the Addams family, really kind of leans on the mechanism of subversion, which is the key mechanism in both horror and humor, and the Adamses kind of lean on both, by kind of dressing in the garments of horror in order to be funny, by pointing out how truly toxic and maybe horrible mainstream culture is, especially vis-a-vis caring about what other people think, and that pointing out of how toxic mainstream culture is happened in like over and over and over again. So it happens with the loving marriage, after many years, of these two people who are truly just continue to be into one another. It happens in the you know the family that fully accepts one another despite their three legs, or you know Fester's light bulb thing or whatever it might be, even Debbie the sister-in-law, who you know tortures Fester and took him away. But but Pastel is a step too far. Pastel is a step too far.
Speaker 1:One thing that we said from like at the start of our conversation was just how friggin sexy Morticia is, I mean especially as Angelica Houston, but in general the character like just reads as like super sexy Women are expected to be so many things, so I don't know that this is actually subversive, but the idea that a woman who is a devoted mother and very good at and very good mother is also still remarkably attractive is one of those things where it could be a subversion or it could be just expectations, as usual.
Speaker 1:Like yeah there's kind of a. It's kind of a both end thing and in part, I think what I like about it is that she doesn't dress for Gomez exactly Like I know he likes what she wears, but she dresses because that's how she likes to look. Well, I think there's just something great about that, but also possibly not.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, insofar as it might set up expectations that one couldn't would be hard to meet, it's. It's not great, but I do think it is interesting as a middle-aged woman. Right, that adams gave us the maiden, mother, crone archetypes, morticia and grandmama. But usually in that trilogy, like, we don't get a particularly sexy mother, right, she's, she's the sex is behind her now that she's become a mother, and and that is subversive of the way that those archetypes are used. So I think that is an interesting thing to note. It also can set up an unhealthy expectation that a woman be superwoman. But both can be true, both can be true, yeah, yeah. And it's not only that she's the mother, she's devoted and good mother and also a loving and monogamous wife and is still sexy, and that actually is quite subversive, I think in the way that we've been given female archetypes.
Speaker 1:And a devoted daughter and it's a happy family, including in-laws. Yeah, Like that is a happy extended family. Whereas, especially in the sixties, the idea of grandmama living with her son-in-law, that would have been like ripe for so many. Like mother-in-laws, Can I am I right? Yeah, Bullshit jokes. Whereas it's just no. Like this is, of course, your mother lives with us. You know this is. She helps with the kids. You are happier when she's here. You don't have to worry about her. She is hale and hearty and enjoying herself and loves cooking for us. Like, of course, and some of this is like that's American culture as opposed to you know elsewhere in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but charles adams was american yeah.
Speaker 2:So on the same vein as morticia just being sort of sexy, I I do want to talk about also the aesthetic of the adams, which I think is part of what appealed to you about it, yes, back in the 90s. Like there's just something like that kind of goth aesthetic. It's also very funny, it's goth whimsy. Yeah, that I think is worth noting and that comes directly from the single panel strips, right, like that's not.
Speaker 1:Which is why I loved like I bought like four or five of the books of because they were New Yorker cartoons and then he had put some together intentionally and other people had put them together posthumously for him and I just I loved the art, I loved the artwork and they the film really went back to his artwork and so, specifically, the cemetery looks just like his drawings.
Speaker 2:I think the juxtaposition of those two things is also part of this. There's so much subversion of expectations in Adam's family and that is it's the underpinning of a lot of the subversion is actually that juxtaposition just in the visual right, and so that the idea that something could be both kind of goth and creepy and dark and also whimsical and funny is already subversive and funny is already subversive and that helps to kind of just undergird, I think, all of it. So those are the highlights that I remember. What did I forget to mention that you want to make sure that we kind of highlight before we say goodbye.
Speaker 1:I don't think there's anything that you missed. There's one or two just interesting facts that I think. So. For instance, this I did not realize Apparently, they wanted Angelica Houston's eyes to slant upward which is part of the reason why she looks so ethereal and so they had these plastic elastic bands that were see-through in the corner of her eye and then tied behind her head that were unbearably painful, apparently.
Speaker 2:yeah and you know when she's like tearing up at different points. It's real.
Speaker 1:And apparently, like it was, there was this kind of catch 22, because if she kept them in while she had like, uh, while she ate lunch, it would cause her to have like a serious headache. But it took so long to take them out and put them back in. So I, I I only mention that because we are so taken with how gorgeous she is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it is the pain that women are expected to put up with because Raul, julia and Christopher Lloyd now, christopher Lloyd was wearing a padded I hate to call it a fat suit, but he was wearing a suit to make him look girthier than he is, which I imagine is not super comfortable to act in. And uh, you know, there are things that that they had to do costuming and stuff like that. But the pain.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that that is something we're about Now. If they wanted the same effect today, I'm sure they'd use CGI.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1:And they did that and then, two years later, she came back and went through it again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so which I mean she's a professional. She really liked the character. She actually thought, oh gosh, I can't remember who it was. There are other actresses interested in the character and she didn't think she'd get it, which I can't even imagine anyone else. And you know, I mean that's, that's part of the job, like you have weird makeup crap when you're an actor. But I just wanted to tell that story because of how much we were struck by her beauty and what is expected of not only just women in general, women in fiction actresses compared to their male counterparts. It's worth noting, I will say, if anyone's watching this on video, I just got contacts today and so I was like, well, if I'm going to do that, I'm going to, I'm going to morticia it up a little bit and put on some eyeshadow. I just need someone to shine a moonlight across my eyes.
Speaker 2:Just that strip of moonlight.
Speaker 1:Just the moonlight for wherever I'm standing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. Well, this was fun. Thank you for bringing your deep thoughts about the Addams Family and Addams Family values. So next time, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:Adam's family values. So next time, yeah, so next time. A bit of a pattern interrupt. We're having my friend, scott Kenimore is coming on to talk about the film Event Horizon. Now I think you're not super familiar with that film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tabula rasa on this one, so I will. Before we record, I will watch the trailer, but I understand it's horror and I'm such a wimp I'm really such a wimp when it comes to horror so I probably won't watch it before we record oh, that's quite all right.
Speaker 2:I do think it's worth noting, listeners, that Scott generally Scott himself is a horror writer, author, published, and so part of what's interesting about having him come to talk about this is like as an influence on someone who later will contribute to pop culture. So that's also a pattern interrupt for us which I'm excited to investigate. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's going to be cool. So I want to share one quick listener comment, which from my friend, christoph, about the Trading Places episode. Christoff says my absolute favorite movie ever Definitely deserves a deep look. So thanks, kristoff. So, folks, if you have deep thoughts about our deep thoughts or any of the things about which we have deep thoughts, we want to hear it.
Speaker 1:Or if we've missed anything, because I'm sure we do, absolutely We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 2:Help us fill in the gaps. You can reach us at guygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or you can head to our website, guygirlsmediacom, or come find us on socials. We are both under our own names on several of the sites, so that's Tracy with an IE, and I do use a hyphen and Emily does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 1:And Birkin is also IE like B-I-R-K-E-N. People struggle with that.
Speaker 2:We are also on TikTok and Instagram as Guy Girls Media, so we look forward to seeing you there or right back here next week.
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