The Fragility of Trust And The Road to Redemption with Wayne Boatwright

What happens when trust is broken and you're left to pick up the pieces of your life? We explore this compelling theme with Wayne Boatwright, an Ivy League-educated attorney who faced a life-changing tragedy that shattered his world. From his rise to professional success to the fatal accident that led to his downfall, Wayne shares an unflinching account of the arduous journey to regain the trust of his family and rediscover his own sense of self-worth. His story is one of resilience and the incredible personal growth that can emerge from profound adversity.

We also turn our focus to the often misunderstood world of addiction and recovery. Drawing from both personal battles and a revealing clip featuring Matthew Perry, we discuss the importance of dismantling triggers rather than simply avoiding them. Through my own experiences in the culinary world and beyond, I share how I managed to navigate environments brimming with potential relapse risks. We delve into the various recovery methods, including AA, and highlight the need to address the root causes of addiction for true healing to begin.

Fatherhood and the struggle to rebuild familial bonds after incarceration takes centre stage next. We follow the heartfelt journey of a father fighting to reconnect with his children after years of absence. Through poignant anecdotes and the concept of "enlightened witnessing," we explore the transformative power of authenticity and integrity. The episode closes with a discussion on the influence of technology on trust and decision-making, featuring invaluable insights from thought leaders like Jordan B. Peterson and Alice Miller. Join us for an episode rich with raw honesty, heartfelt stories, and practical wisdom on trust, recovery, and redemption.

Key moments in this episode:
06:42 The Downfall: Alcohol and Tragedy
09:43 Redemption and Self-Discovery
11:42 Facing the Consequences
21:38 Rebuilding Relationships and Trust
24:44 Family Reunions and Gratitude
30:12 The Role of an Enlightened Witness
34:20 San Quentin News and Redemption
37:59 The Importance of Community and Mentorship
42:58 Final Reflections and Advice

How to reach Wayne:
Web: https://wayneboatwright.medium.com/
Book: Podcast Profiles
FB: https://www.facebook.com/wayne.boatwright
IG: https://www.instagram.com/wabfree/
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@bradleyvinson
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wayneboatwright/ 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

You know, it's said that it takes a lifetime to earn trust and only moments to lose. Truer words have never been spoken in my opinion. And trust is built on us being true to our word, living with core values that take us little to no effort, because it's truly who we are. And then something. And then there's that other side of us that when trust is broken, it's that moment when we make a decision, or maybe it's a set of decisions that maybe in the past may not have caused any harm, or at least that's the story we tell ourselves to making a major mistake. So what kind of mistake? Well, you name it A fling that was supposed to be nothing, or one too many drinks that then driving home that leads to a fatal accident, just to name a couple.

Speaker 1: 0:41

And well, today, my guest and I talk about having it all and then losing it all because of breaking this boundary of trust. It's going to be raw, it's going to be real, and I sure don't want you to miss it. And before we get into that, I just want to say, if you're interested in raising your standards as a father, a husband and an entrepreneur, I'm going to encourage you to participate in our group mentorship program, our band of brothers, we're a group of ordinary guys working towards living extraordinary lives. You can find this at the Awakened man Training Academy at membersnet. And with that, let's get on with today's episode. The average man today is sleepwalking through life.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Many never reaching their true potential, let alone ever crossing the finish line to the Revolutionary man Podcast. I'm the founder of the Awakened man Movement and your host, alan DeMonso. Before we get started, let me ask you a couple of questions. Have you ever broken the boundary of trust, and if so, what were the consequences? You know, rebuilding trust takes work Work on all parties. The challenge is we only have control over one party, and that's ourselves, and so for some of us, we get a second chance to rebuild trust, and for others, that boundary can never be repaired, and so how we handle ourselves in both scenarios is part of what my discussion is today. So allow me to introduce my guest.

Speaker 1: 2:24

Wayne Boatwright is a distinguished Ivy League educated, attorney and polymath with a captivating story that transcends conventional narratives. As a multifaceted figure, wayne has left an indelible mark on the legal, journalistic and advocacy spheres, from his Ivy League education to advising multinational corporations around the globe, to serving six years in San Quentin prison, to rebuilding the most precious of relationships with his children. Allow me to welcome Wayne to the show. How are things, my friend?

Speaker 3: 2:53

Wonderful Thank you for having me and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker 1: 2:56

I, just when you came up, when your information came across my desk about being a guest on the show, I knew right away this was a conversation that must be had, and we must have this because, as fathers, there's so many things that we need to do and how we show up. But, as you know, in our show here at the Revolutionary man, we always talk about everyone being on a hero's quest, and so you have two incredible stories here. The first is that Ivy League education and big business to losing it all for a gross, negligent vehicular manslaughter, and then you also have had that other side of it, and so tell us how each of these has shaped you into the man you are today and the work that you're doing. Wow.

Speaker 3: 3:33

First of all, great introduction and trust will be the theme that we'll go through, both lost and and the struggles to regain it. We don't appreciate just how precious things like that are until we lose them, do we? Yeah, my story is the classic American meritocracy dream. So I was raised by a single mother without a high school education. I lived on government assistance in rent control housing with my mother, my half-brother and my grandmother, and even though I had a pretty bare existence, I had dreams, and the thing I think about America that I love is that if one really works hard, one can achieve one's dreams. At least, that's what I believe for most of us, and in my case, that's what I did.

Speaker 3: 4:22

For example, my last year of high school, which is when you're basically 17 to 18 years old, I only went to school two periods a day. I worked the rest of the time. I started working at 15 and a half, when it was legal to do so in America, because I had to earn money and I worked hard. I think the mantra that I told myself that allowed me to achieve as much as I did, and that included, you know, getting a college education from the basic beginnings, junior college, remedial English. I took three years off between the end of high school and starting college. I worked, you know I had to earn money, but then I realized that to achieve the things I wanted in life I needed an education. So I decided to take up the reins and do that and studied very hard and was lucky enough to get into Cornell, which is an Ivy League law school, and graduate from there and have not the legal profession as you see it on TV.

Speaker 3: 5:22

I wasn't a litigator, I wasn't into criminal law. I was a business lawyer. I helped corporations and businesses achieve their goals, both domestically and internationally. So much so that I spent six years as a lawyer in Seoul, korea, and worked with all the multinationals coming into the Asian markets. That was in the 1990s. I met I got to party with Stevie Wonder one night in his band. I met George Soros. I met Michael Bloomberg. I got to interact with their businesses as they entered into the Asian markets as well and decided to come back to the US and work for a global company called Accenture, where I had a position with them that allowed me to travel as a lawyer all around the world Sydney, tokyo, shanghai, paris, london, new York, athens, madrid, right, I mean, I got to go everywhere as a lawyer, but I was in the Bay Area and I got bit by the startup bug. You know, the Silicon Valley ethos is something that I really aspire to maintain and something I really respect the creativity and the risk taking that it engenders.

Speaker 3: 6:30

And so I example I didn't have a drink of alcohol until I was 33 years old, but in Seoul, korea, alcohol is an important part of the culture of business. There you drink at dinner, you drink at the club. Afterwards you drink a karaoke at the end of the night to show that you're doing it. And I took that up wholeheartedly and developed a drinking habit that unfortunately, in my case, I lost control of and it became steadily worse, especially as there were challenges with my career, with my family, my mother and brother who were having problems, and so alcohol became the coping mechanism that I went to the most.

Speaker 3: 7:22

And it's a weird counterintuitive mix, because mantra of better, faster, stronger, that had gotten me to where I was also led to a very solitary life, and so, rather than reaching out for help, whether it be from my wife or my friends, I went to the bottle and relied on alcohol more and more often as a means of dealing with the stresses and pressures that I was facing in my life and was the source of the greatest tragedy imaginable for two families.

Speaker 3: 7:53

In my case, I was a drunk driver and I killed someone while driving and took her away from her grandchildren, her children, her family, destroyed that family's view of what life could be and what opportunities there were for them. But at the same time I destroyed my family because my crime not only led to severe physical injury for me but ultimately led to me being sentenced to seven years, eight months, as you said, for gross negligence, vehicular manslaughter, and serving over six years in state prison. And I say serving, importantly, I serve sentence. It's what society required of me, not religion, which may have required a life for a life right and not pure forgiveness, which is also a view that religion espouses. I serve sentence. I am proud that I did so. It was required of me and I was willing to face that responsibility.

Speaker 1: 8:49

It's a tough one. Yeah, it's a tough one, Wayne, for sure.

Speaker 3: 8:53

Unimaginable for most of us.

Speaker 1: 8:56

I think the impact of that story and knowing a bit about the background of that story is that, while mine wasn't as as as as powerful as yours I can remember, you know, when happened for me was in my early thirties I was very successful as a, as a chef and competing in, you know, culinary Olympics and doing all that that stuff, and while my professional life looked on the outside to be extremely successful, my personal life was falling all, all around, all around me and ultimately ended up by losing everything as well and having to totally rebuild my life.

Speaker 1: 9:32

And so what makes it so your story, so so powerful is this next part that I really wanted to get into is really starting to talk about this redemption piece. You know you've you, you served your time, you serve that and and doing part of the that punishment that was required of you, but you also took an opportunity to really take an opportunity to look at who, what, the kind of man that you are, and how that time really gave you the opportunity to change your outlook on life. Can you talk a little bit about that, that starting that transition of change for you?

Speaker 3: 10:08

Sure I, you know it's. It's interesting and I think I think that was spot on. I think most of us don't realize we all know the things we should do. Why don't we do them? I knew that drinking I was drinking too much. I was drinking alone. That's sign, I I know, of having an alcohol problem. If you can't face it, are you drinking alone? If the answer is yes, period, you have an alcohol problem.

Speaker 3: 10:30

I was drinking alone. I was drinking alone daily by the time of my accident. That's because I couldn't face the challenges and I was using alcohol as a coping mechanism instead of really trying to deal with the challenges that I was facing and that I had to deal with, to be a true adult, instead of hiding from them in a bottle like I was. I really think the reason that's such a common story, a heartbreakingly common story and whether it's drugs or alcohol or smoking or sex, whatever addiction you may have, these are coping mechanisms and we don't realize why we're using them and our society doesn't really acknowledge that it tries to treat symptoms rather than causes. I think that's why so many people go back to drugs and go back to alcohol is the solutions they're seeking are addressing symptoms and not causes. And to get to those root causes, you have to understand your subconscious, your unconscious mind, and that's a perilous, difficult journey for anybody, because we live in our conscious space, right, that's where we get things done, that's who we think we are and that's how we present ourselves to society. In my case, I was lucky to be sentenced to san quentin, which you know is is an infamous prison here in california. It's where our death row is and all of the you know it's where charles manson's at right I mean people like that right are are are there. But it's also the only prison in the california system and I think, one of the only prison in the California system and I think one of the only ones in the world that has more nonprofit and advocacy groups that volunteer to go in to teach classes and groups that are wanted that they can satisfy. There's well over 100 that go in there on a weekly basis, and so when I was in prison, I voluntarily took advantage of those. Those aren't things that you have to do. Those are things I wanted to do Because the power and the crisis of taking a life it was both of those things.

Speaker 3: 12:34

Was it a tragedy? Was it a sin? Was it a wrong? Yes, it was all of those things. It was a crime. I did that. How could I do that?

Speaker 3: 12:43

But it's also. It represents amazing power. You think you know what power is. Take a life and understand what power is, and the question is, will you become addicted to that power and continue to take lives, or will you recognize that you have to become responsible? Or that power might manifest itself again, and that's something I couldn't allow to happen. I had to find out why and how I could be the person that could drink enough to think I was to be arrogant enough to be proud enough to think I could drink and drive without consequence.

Speaker 3: 13:17

I had to do that journey, and that journey is into the subconscious. It is understanding much more than your conscious mind ever can, and, unfortunately for us. We're talking about it. I can tell you that, but the unconscious mind is a visual, is in a visual existence, and so you have to create metaphors that are visual to access that. In my case, that journey, that hero's journey as you discuss it, that journey, that hero's journey as you discuss it, is that I had built this psychic delusion house that I live within. I'm a lawyer, I'm successful, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a Sunday school teacher. Right, this is the psychic delusion house that I had built, that I thought, protected me and kept me safe. But I burned that house down because it wasn't keeping me safe, it wasn't addressing the needs that I had to face, the issues that I had to deal with.

Speaker 3: 14:11

And I think what we find in most people's lives is they continue to repeat the same mistake until they learn how to face it. But unfortunately, most of us try to learn how to face it with our rational, intellectual mind without realizing that much of this stuff exists at a subconscious level and that we have to deal with those issues from there. For example, we all have. Everybody talks about the word trauma in their lives and how traumatic something is. But why is it? Some people can face those traumas and come out fine, and other people are destroyed. And the answer is the trauma is how you deal with it. The act is merely traumatic, it's not the trauma. How do you face the challenges that life gives you? All of us have them. They're all unique to each individual. Sure, there are standard milestones in every life life, death, marriage, parenthood. I'm not saying those don't exist, but we all face them in our own way, in our own challenges. And the question is what gives you the courage, what gives you the power to face those?

Speaker 3: 15:15

And in my case, I had to rebuild that delusion house I had burned down with my crime, and I decided to do that. As an adult, my new mantra, my old mantra, was better, faster, stronger. My new mantra is I refuse to know for certain what everybody else takes for granted. I decided to question everything and I mean everything in my life, in our society, in our world. What success. I had to relook at all of those things in order for me to face the wellspring of my malcontent that drove me to drinking, that drove me to using that as well as other coping mechanisms that we all use in our lives.

Speaker 3: 15:55

I was lucky enough to find a group in prison that could help me with that. So I went to a group called Victim Offender Education Group VOGUE it stands for and it was an 18-month process of regular meetings that culminated in a meeting with a panel of survivors of death, people who had lost. One woman had lost her son on his wedding night to a gangland shooting. Another family had lost their you know the mother and daughter were both there, so they had lost their husband and their father to a drunk driver. I got to sit with those people, not to share my story, to hear theirs, to sit with them and to grieve with them, because the real word for that shouldn't be guilt, it should be grief. We should grieve with others and let them sit with that pain, for that shouldn't be guilt, it should be grief. We should grieve with others and let them sit with that pain for as long as we can or as long as they need.

Speaker 3: 16:47

In our case it lasted over two hours, as a panel and it was one of the greatest opportunities of my life to grieve with those people who had lost someone I was wearing the black hat right and so to show them that I was more than just the crime I had committed and to let them know they could be more than just the victim they felt like with the losses they had suffered, so they could heal right, just stop being a victim and become a survivor, which is, I think, all of our goals. That is the hero's journey right to become a survivor yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 17:18

And then to come back to that point of being able to, you know, to help and and bring others along with you on that journey, and so thank you so much for for sharing that. I was as you, I was writing a bunch of notes here and and one of the things that came to me as I jotted down was this I've watched this clip about Matthew Perry and he was challenging this guy on this panel. He, I guess he was an author and he wrote a book and and he was challenging Matt. Matthew was challenging him, I should say, about. You know that you know, drinking is a choice, right, and and Matt was really upset and I think everyone's well knows how his struggle with, with addiction, and he talked about having all these protocols that he would put in place to manage himself before that first drink, because he knew once that happened, it was game over for him.

Speaker 1: 18:02

And and then I remember, you know, I was listening to you tell your story and so I was thinking of that. And then I remember, you know, listening to you speaking with another podcast host and talking about how you needed to start to unpack your triggers as well, and sounded very similar, and then today you're speaking about. You know, really understanding that subconscious and and and building those images of who we are and how that those triggers are the things that, once we understand that mechanism of how that works, it gives us an opportunity to dismantle it and now to rebuild it. And I don't know if I'm paraphrasing or summarizing what you just said, that's what was coming through to me.

Speaker 3: 18:38

Yeah, that's and I'm not a psychiatrist, right, I'm sure there are professional terms for all of these things. But what? What I heard you say, and what I assume his story was, was most of us are, most of the processes and and most of the rehab centers seem to work about building a wall around whatever triggers you're drinking, and you can never make the wall. For many of us that wall can never be thick enough, high enough, strong enough. For some, that works right. They can build a wall around that trigger and if that works for them, I'm not here to question their choice. In my case, I wanted to dismantle that trigger.

Speaker 3: 19:24

You know, I know you've had a lot of experience in the culinary world. I've been lucky enough to work with a celebrity chef at Chris Constantino, who won Top Chef and Top Chef Masters. I currently work with a catering company. I've had 27 jobs since I got home from prison. You can't practice law once you've been committed a felony and been disbarred, so I have to make do as best I can, and so I do just about everything. But I worked at Chris's restaurant here in San Francisco and we had two bars at that restaurant.

Speaker 3: 19:55

I was never tempted to drink. I was around alcohol every day for free. I had people offering me drinks all the time. I now work at a catering company which can have five bars. I was at a we host. We were the catering company for the Google event. We had five bars at the Google event.

Speaker 3: 20:11

I'm not bothered by that. I don't mind going to. I can go to a bar or restaurant. I have no problem ordering my little.

Speaker 3: 20:22

The method that I used to deal with that is I order a soda water with two limes. You know happy to go up to the bartender. So I like a soda water with two limes. You know doesn't bother me, I want my. My friends want to drink and they can handle it. They're more than welcome to. But that's because I feel comfortable that I've dismantled that trigger.

Speaker 3: 20:36

I did do AA, which is the most common group that's used here in the United States I'm not sure if you've seen it everywhere as well and I found it works for many people, but in my case I found that their focus on the act and the consequences of drinking the never forgetting was just too much, because I felt I had dismantled the trigger that had required me to use the coping mechanisms that I used. And so for Matthew Perry, I'm sure he felt he had to use some part of him, some unconscious part of him not the one discussing all the mechanisms that he used felt that that was the coping mechanism he needed to use. And because he wasn't able to find that wellspring of malcontent, the start of that river, he ended up losing his life. And that's a sad, sad story, but not as sad as mine, where I took a life. At least he didn't take anybody down with him.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I really appreciate that as we explore this topic and we look at some of those pieces, and I really want to get now really get into this fatherhood side of it, because you know, when you went off to prison, your daughter was six years old, from what I recall, and by the time you came out she was, I guess, just around 12, maybe 13. What was it like for you and for her and how did you go about repairing that relationship? Was it like for you and for her and how did you go about repairing that relationship? Because obviously we talked about in the intro about breaking a trust, this boundary of trust. That must have been some pretty incredible work. That had to be, that had to happen for you and for her yeah, it's.

Speaker 3: 22:11

The irony is my son, who's two years older than my daughter. He didn't visit me for 18 months when I was in prison because he was so angry Not the first 18 months, it was in the middle but when he was developmentally able to understand what I had done and was being made fun of by fellow students at his school. My daughter visited me the whole time. But I have to say my challenge with her has been much deeper and much longer, and it is around the issue of trust, because developmentally, as a six-year-old, when I left her I abandoned her. That's the way I see her interpreting my actions, and what defense mechanisms does one put in place when one's been abandoned? Well, don't trust anybody else, because they might abandon you too. And I know my daughter's had challenges. My daughter's been the captain of her varsity golf team for two years. She's a senior in high school, but she has a hard time with her male coaches. She has a hard time trusting men because of my actions. The ripples of our actions are so much more than we appreciate. And regaining her trust has been the core of my journey because with my son I was able to regain his love and his attention and his trust while still in prison and we've been able to maintain that very close relationship even since I've come home. He came over and we watched basketball just two days ago. He's home from school. He goes to school back East, so he's home on his holiday break and we spend time together. We love each other. We communicate regularly. But with my daughter she's much more hesitant to trust me and I can't say she knows why. I would say she doesn't. This is a subconscious process, but that defense mechanism I'm not trusting men is something that is my fondest and biggest desire to help her overcome, and I can't guarantee it'll happen. That's her choice and it's the most painful. One of the most painful things that I've done is to destroy that innocence in my children by my act. That's why I said I destroyed two families. You know, with trust.

Speaker 3: 24:23

I couldn't regain my wife's trust. A few months into my prison sentence she asked me for a divorce and I can say that since that time at least I've gained her trust as a co-parent and we do a very good job of as co-parenting of our children. We communicate regularly. At least once every two or three weeks We'll be on the phone and debrief each other, what's going on with the kids.

Speaker 3: 24:45

I was invited over to the family dinner for Thanksgiving. I'm again invited over for Christmas dinner with the children and with my ex-wife and her new husband and he welcomes me in that way and I'm grateful for that and I'm grateful for her that she brought those kids to visit me while I was in San Quentin. That's not an easy process to visit somebody in prison and she did it the full six years I was there with my children and brought them in to visit me. With that exception of that 18 months my son couldn't visit me because he was so hurt and so angry at me at the pain I caused him. So I'll always be grateful to her for that. But I never regained her trust and I can understand that. That's her choice. But that hurts and I hope to continue to heal and weave together that tapestry of our lives as a way of characterizing it, with my daughter and that she can learn to trust not just me but but men in general.

Speaker 1: 25:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that you know, you know the nice, the nice thing that's really coming out of it even you know, from your wife, with your wife's perspective and and how she's fitting into this is that, while there might not have been enough trust for a marriage to stay together, was enough trust for you, as the father, to be able to be present there. And so kudos to you as well for being able to rise up to that and being okay with it, as okay as you can be when the marriage falls apart. And it's been 20 plus years since, you know, since my first wife and I have had have no longer been together, and I've been remarried, and happily so. But I can tell you, when I hear that she's having health issues, my heart still goes out to her for for what she's going through.

Speaker 1: 26:32

And so we were talking just before coming on on the show here to hit record, and you know you had told a story about how you know you had just checked your, your messages and what was it? In the last day here you was over like 178, 180 odd messages, and and I said and I and I want to bring that forward because we're talking about how do you rebuild trust? And those are one of those key things about being connected with your children and staying there and having that, that ability, and you know, and while I Not a great thing for me to be able to say as a father so tell us a little bit more about some of those things that maybe we take for granted as fathers, and that with our children, and how, what are the things that you're doing today to continue to create that foundation of trust and create that place for them to know that that's still somebody they can come to? Sure.

Speaker 3: 27:26

Yeah, before our call, what I did was I went back for seven days to see how many communications I had with my children, and it was 178 communications in the past seven days. Now, some of them may have simply been the word love or heart or photo. One of the ways I've worked diligently at rebuilding trust with my daughter is that, even though she's in high school, she goes to school back east. She's in what's called a boarding school, so she's gone. I take care of her cat, because her new stepdad is allergic to cats, even though she had one, and so I take a photo of her cat almost daily and send that to my daughter, and that's an example of trust. She trusts me with the most precious thing in her life her cat and I want to show her I'm worthy of that trust by sending her a photo of her cat on a regular basis so she knows that Milky Way is doing fine and is happy with dad and hanging out with him. That's one way that I work with my daughter. You have to meet your children where they are right. That's the key to this whole process.

Speaker 3: 28:34

My son and I love baseball, so the summer between my crime and going to prison, we went to as many San Francisco Giants baseball games as we could, but we didn't just go to the game. We went two hours early to batting practice and he brought his glove Remember, he's seven to eight at the time, right? So he brought his glove and he's out in the outfield hoping to get baseballs, and in his room he still has a rack with all the balls that he's gotten during his time at these games, and so we were able to bond over baseball and use that as a key mechanism for us to discuss. And we talk baseball daily, even though it's the off season right now, and we talk about the other big teams here in the Bay Area the 49ers in football American football, right and the Warriors in basketball. So we have this mechanism to talk, but it's one I've had to really work at because, I gotta be honest, I'm not a big sports fan.

Speaker 3: 29:36

With my daughter, she loves to read, so I'd find a series of books that she loves to read, like Harry Potter, for example. In her case, it was actually the Rick Riordan books that deal with Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, where there's a whole series of books. Well, when I was in prison and I found out she wanted to read those books. I went to the prison library, checked out those books and read them, so I'd have examples. If she said something about her life, I would equate it to something going on with Percy or with the other characters in these books, because that's where she was. That's something that was important to her and I think, if I were to get a message out to other dads, it's to meet them where they are. But that also means getting interested in what they're interested in and that doesn't mean do it lazily, go all in, read the books, watch the TV shows, watch the sporting events whatever it is to meet them where they are shows, watch the sporting events. Whatever it is to meet them where they are.

Speaker 3: 30:32

The term I like to use is that of an enlightened witness. I think too many parents either act as taskmasters or as friends, and you're not. You're a parent, and a parent needs to be not just a witness. I like to call it being the front row for my kids. I cheer them on with whatever they're doing. I want them to make informed choices, but they're their choices and I want to cheer them on as they make those important decisions in their lives. My daughter has to decide what college she's going to go to, determined by where she gets in. Don't get me wrong, it's not like she gets to choose. But I want to help her in that process, I want to cheer her on in that process. I think that enlightened witness knowing what's going on and being able to guide that process is something that parents should do and something that I work very hard at and believe I've had some success at.

Speaker 3: 31:22

For example, this past few months my son decided to spend a semester in Washington DC.

Speaker 3: 31:29

He was thinking about it.

Speaker 3: 31:29

He wasn't sure if he was going to do it.

Speaker 3: 31:32

The enlightened witness means you do research on that. What would it be like in DC? Where would he go, who would his professors be, what would the environment be like? And to discuss all of those issues with him as he goes through that process. And of course it's a wonderful time we're having a presidential election year coming up, so he'll be in Washington DC in one of the four years where DC's the busiest, the hottest, the most crazy. He'll be able to be there. And he's decided to do that, to take that risk of leaving the comfortable campus with the dining halls and his roommates and go off to Washington DC for a semester and go off to Washington DC for a semester, but it's not because I pushed him to do it. It's because I was a witness to his desire to do it. But I was enlightened. I discussed it with him and had a lot of heartfelt conversations about the pros and cons of it. Those are the terms that I like to use Meet them where they are and be an enlightened witness.

Speaker 1: 32:24

Love those terms. Those are awesome, Wayne. I just love those two terms and I hadn't really thought of that as being an enlightened witness, but I like how you frame that and about you know, doing research, being active in it and meeting our kids where they're, where they're at, and I think that's so important at any age for them, that that we do that, and and so I really appreciate you, you know, sharing that insight. Now I want to pivot a little bit and talk a little bit about your other work that you're doing.

Speaker 3: 32:48

I have to show you who came out to show you. I'm telling the truth. There they are, outstanding. You know one thing you learn in prison. I know we're not going to talk a lot about it, but you don't know what tall tales are until you go to prison. I met guys who claim to be special forces. You know secret. You know sons of unwanted billionaires. The stories that come out are amazing, and so I work very hard since I've come back, to verify anything I say. I can show you the list of 27 jobs, for example, when I talk about that. Or I can show you the cat, that Milky Way that I take care of for my daughter.

Speaker 1: 33:30

Yeah, I totally have gotten that impression that you're truly an authentic individual, that you know.

Speaker 1: 33:35

If anything that didn't get lost in this whole.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Your whole story, wayne, has been that you are truly authentic and you have a ton of integrity, and I appreciate that, because it could be easy for you to change the story, embellish it, make it be more than than it is, and yet you're sitting here and I, as I you know, enticed everyone that we were going to have a raw and a real conversation.

Speaker 1: 33:58

We've been doing that, this through this whole conversation today, that may be in a similar journey that you are on and are having to deal with rebuilding trust and rebuilding family and themselves, and so part of our you know it's said that part of our pain from our pain comes our purpose, and so I know you're the managing editor of the San Quentin News and so you just you bring a different perspective when discussing this nuance of you know folks that are coming to be re-enter into the workforce and you know this nuance of you know folks that are coming to be reenter into the workforce and you know this power of redemption. We've been talking about that today. So tell us about how you got involved with that paper and how is it serving its readers today?

Speaker 3: 34:40

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that, because the one thing I love to promote is that people read SanQuentinNewscom. Very easy to find. The San Quentin News is a 20-page paper that has 60 to 80 articles every month that come out. It has a 35,000 print subscription. It was 20,000 when I started, it's up to 35 now. So people are reading it and it's going out to all the prisons in the California system. I was the managing editor when I was inside and then I became the web manager and, as we have a website as well, which I just touted, please go to our website. It makes me look good. If you find any mistakes, let me know, I'll make the corrections, but it's a chance for the incarcerated to express their own voice and I can assure you, when I was the managing editor, who was working at getting the right balance of stories that we wanted to talk about, there were a lot of stories that were told in a way I wouldn't have told them.

Speaker 3: 35:35

But this is a chance for them to have their voice not my voice Again. That's why I never disclosed. I was an attorney when I was inside. I just said I was a business guy that was in prison. Because I don't want to get into that, I don't want them to.

Speaker 3: 35:56

They need to make these choices, and so the San Quentin News is a great example of highlighting many of the organizations that are involved in San Quentin the nonprofits and advocacy groups that have regular meetings and classes there, but also the sporting events, which are another great way for people to get in touch with their authentic selves. Right, play by the rules, for example. People don't appreciate how valuable sports are to teach those simple things. Play by the rules, show up on time, face the consequences of your actions if you foul somebody, right. So we talk about sports. We talk about the incarceration system across the United States and also the chances at rehabilitation that exist in other countries, whether it be Norway or Japan and what goes on, and write articles about those things. So I'm very proud of the San Quentin News, a prison inmate run managed newspaper that publishes the articles it wants to publish about the topics that they find interesting and hopefully can give hope to other inmates in other prisons that there may be a path for them back, because unfortunately, many of these men stay mired in their criminality. They don't see a way out. So why change? And so the question is what are the tools that can help them find a way out? And it's different for every person. I like to call it. The three elements are introspection, to understand yourself. And then creative self-expression and again, that could be in sport, writing, whatever helps you express yourself to the world. And then the ultimate one is service. How do you share that with others If basketball is your thing? How do you become a coach If being an artist is your thing? How do you teach someone else to be a better artist? Service, but you have to have that creative self-expression and you have to have that introspection. You have to understand yourself as part of that process, and that's a very difficult journey. We don't live in a culture that prizes that introspection as much as it should, and so finding tools to help you do that are very important.

Speaker 3: 37:59

I love the idea of the small group or the idea of community discussing these issues. One way of doing that, for example, is I do a weekly Bible study with my men at my Presbyterian church, but that's a great mechanism. I also do a business twice a month coffee where men will get together and discuss their lives and their challenges. It's amazing, not just for you to understand when you talk to others they will reflect back to you what you're saying and you can understand yourself better but it also condenses a whole life experience. You get to see everything and how other people deal with challenges in these meetings with others.

Speaker 3: 38:34

In my men's group of businessmen, one of the members got married, so we all shared that process of loving somebody proposing getting married. Another one's had his two children his first and second child and the third one on the way and so his challenges of being a father, starting a business, firing somebody from that business, right. These groups give us a chance to discuss a wide variety of issues beyond our own self-centeredness, and I think that's very important to have that mechanism, and I would recommend anybody who's listening to define a similar group, and that could be AA, for example, if they find that works for them. But it could also be a business group, it could be a church group, it could be one that teaches about the hero's journey and how to truly aspire to be the man that you want to be.

Speaker 1: 39:29

Yeah completely agree. I think it's so needed today, even more so today with the way society is going, and I was going to you know lead with that. For the next question I had for you is that you know you've been out for a while, you've been doing some great work around the world, but as you look around you, what do you see that really needs to be corrected? Or a realignment with society today that really needs to be corrected, or a realignment with society today.

Speaker 3: 39:50

I've actually written quite a bit about this because I love looking at systems and how things work and we're going through a great transition as we're trying to digest this new technology, this digital realm that now exists, and as a society, it creates conflict, right, and so we're not sure how to do that yet. We're working that out as a society, but that process is painful and difficult. An example of a similar change would be the advent of the printing press. That came out in the late 1400s. That led to the Hundred Years War between the Protestants and the Catholics. Could that happen with this digital technology? Yes, it's that big of a change that we're trying to adjust to and we haven't figured out as a society how to do that yet. But I would recommend people characterize it that way it's a digital realm that you're exploring and you have a mental realm that you live in yourself. You have a physical realm and you have a digital realm and you must develop the tools to act in that digital realm that you want to.

Speaker 3: 40:57

An example of my techie law experience with startups the way I like to express it is we used to have an expert to help us find a needle in a haystack, and that's what you use an expert for. But technology now gives us a needle stack and so anybody pulls a needle out and pretends they're an expert. Look, I found a needle. I mean at its core. That's why we don't trust media anymore. At its core, that's why we have such conflicts that exist because technology is giving us a needle stack and so we don't trust experts to find the needle anymore. We think we can find it ourselves. And we do find a needle.

Speaker 3: 41:37

I think that's the thing people discount. No, no, it's not hay, it's a needle. It's just not the needle you think it is, and you're conveying it with the confidence you shouldn't have, because there was a whole needle stack there. Anybody can pull the needle out of that thing, and so that recognition of how technology is changing how we see the world and the need for us to find the space to make important decisions instead of just finding an answer that Google gives us Google's become an oracle. You put in a question, it gives you an answer. The LLMs, the large language models that exist now, are an extension of that, and, yeah, you could trust that are an extension of that and, yeah, you could trust that. I would recommend people sit with uncertainty a little bit longer before they make that decision. That that would help them.

Speaker 1: 42:20

That's a great idea and I like that because you're absolutely right. The idea of that a needle stack and then thinking we're so sure. And you see that, I see that constantly and regardless of what side of the political spectrum you're on, whether you know you're left or right, everything is extreme today and everybody thinks they have the right answer. And yet it's because we, we are afraid, because we lack certainty, and it's okay to be uncertain for a bit and and to be uncertain enough to know that that allows you to be open, to maybe see and hear a different perspective of what's going on and so that you can make a better decision for yourself and for those around you. And so I really like how you frame that way. You know what's been, I'm sure, over the course of your career and your time. You've had some mentors and people have been in your life and that. But what would you say has been the best piece of advice you've been given and how has that served you? Oh, interesting.

Speaker 3: 43:15

I talked about that that unknowing, that hidden thing that is the, the wellspring of our malcontent, right, our maladaption. What is it that causes that? Much like my daughter, I was trained not to trust men because my mother and grandmother both had failed relationships regularly, and so they didn't trust men. I didn't consciously know that, but I didn't have a mentor to learn from because I couldn't trust anybody to be a mentor. The way I've dealt with that is I've gone to reading, so I would highly recommend a number of books If one wants to be a better father. I will recommend a somewhat controversial figure, a Canadian professor known as Jordan B Peterson. I find that his statements on parenting and fatherhood are spot on from what I've learned about my life, and he's very effective at communicating some deep concepts that are not easy to understand. Whether it's sit up straight with your shoulders back or clean up your room, he has a way of conveying these basic concepts that is very effective.

Speaker 3: 44:19

If one wants to find out their own subconscious source of their malcontent, I would recommend a Swiss psychologist named Alice Miller.

Speaker 3: 44:29

Somebody who's written a lot about her stuff who's still around is called Gabor Mott Gabor's, from Hungary. He's very, very good about discussing addiction and the source of it, but Alice Miller did it before him and in many ways did it better, since she comes from an earlier time, and so her books, including one called the Drama of the Gifted Child, was very helpful for me to discover and to access my own subconscious and the source of the trauma that I had experienced and the defense mechanisms I had built up in response to that, and to learn how to face those things and to grieve with the child. I once was not to hide from that, as I had been doing, and not to use coping mechanisms like alcohol to deal with it, which is what I had done. So Alice Miller is a great source for people and I would highly recommend it. We'll read that and, unfortunately for you, I could give you a list of 10 more, because I'm very much I read copious amounts and I love systems, so I like people that explain how the world works.

Speaker 1: 45:33

Those are three amazing authors for sure. I'm a big fan of Jordan Peterson and just for the same reasons you say. He takes a simple idea, concept and then just has a beautiful way of framing that, and I was actually watching his series on. He did a talk series on the book Genesis and on Daily Wire Plus he does one now on Exodus and I have to tell you it's just fascinating to listen to him and the guest panel talk about stuff and things that you know just opened your mind to different perspectives. And I hadn't heard of Alice, so I'm going to make sure I pick up a book from her and I and I truly enjoy Gabor's work as well. But you know of everything that we spoke about today, wayne, and maybe there's something we didn't get a chance to touch on. If there was one thing you'd want our listeners to take away from us, what would that be?

Speaker 3: 46:23

I told you my mantra was to not take for certain what other people take for granted. Right, I'm working on a new one. We live in the future. The present is fixed. The past is ever changing and it gives me a perspective of the world. We live in the future because there are so many different ways things can happen. That's where we spend all our time. What are the different options we make? What are the different choices we can do? What's going to happen in this basketball game? Who's going to hit the shot? We live in the future. The present is fixed. It doesn't change. It is the present, and I think many times we get lost in either living in the future or remaking the past. No, the present is fixed, accept that, but the past is always changing.

Speaker 3: 47:11

That is the narrative of our life. We live in narrative. Our self is actually a story. An infinite loop is a way of characterizing this. Douglas Hofstadter wrote a great book about that.

Speaker 3: 47:20

But the concept that we are a narrative, a story we're telling ourselves that exists and that story changes, good and bad. For me, I was going to be married for life to the mother of my children and you know, for better or worse, we would get through all of our challenges together. That was the story I told myself for decades. We were married. For 14 years I told myself that story. But now that story has changed. Right, it's not for better or worse, it's not for life. So the past is always changing and we need to be able to face that past and have the courage to change it where it needs to be changed. When we developed a defense mechanism as a child that is harming us as an adult, we need to get rid of that defense mechanism. But we still have to mourn with that child that we once were what happened. So that past is always changing. So that's my new way of seeing the world. We live in the future. The present is fixed.

Speaker 1: 48:17

The past is always changing and that's beautiful. I just love how you put that together. Just want to say once again, wayne, thank you so much for being on the show. I just really appreciated you being here and helping us get an understanding of what it takes to rebuild trust for ourselves and for those around us. But if men are interested in getting ahold of you and participating in your work or getting reaching out to you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Speaker 3: 48:42

The best way to contact me is on LinkedIn. By the way, one of the talks that you did with a guy speaking about AI I he said, reach out to me on LinkedIn. So I did and he connected with me. I promise anybody who reaches out I will connect with them on LinkedIn. It's just my name, wayne Boatwright. I also have posted close to a hundred over a hundred pieces on Substack under my name, wayne Boatwright as well, so a lot of these concepts are discussed much more in depth than a lot of the authors that I find inspiring and that I've learned from I talk about in my essays on Substack.

Speaker 1: 49:15

Awesome. I'm going to make sure that information, as well as your social, are in the show notes for today. Buddy, thank you so much for this conversation. I truly enjoyed it. Really think you're doing some amazing work out in the world today, and thank you so much for spending the time with us.

Speaker 2: 49:29

My pleasure time with us. Little pleasure. Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary man podcast. Are you ready to own your destiny, to become more the man you are destined to be? Join the brotherhood that is the awakened man at theenedmannet and start forging a new destiny today.