You're always fine
Welcome to "You're Always Fine," the mental health and wellness podcast for the chronically fine. Hosted by Kristine Hoestermann, LICSW, and Theresa Thomas, this show is like talking to your best friends but with the advice of seasoned professionals. Brought to you by Even Health, a tech company that's breaking down barriers in the world of mental health, this podcast is about keeping it real, even when you're not feeling your best. Join Kristine and Theresa weekly as they open up about their vulnerabilities and fearlessly discuss topics people often shy away from. From societal struggles to those within everyday life, they bring the power of authenticity to the forefront.
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You're always fine
Empathy swing and a miss
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Ever found yourself fumbling for the right words when a friend shares their sorrow, or wondered why your well-intentioned advice seems to push people away? As your companions through the emotional labyrinth of life, Kristine & Theresa unfold the complexities of empathy on this journey of understanding and connection. We delve into the essence of empathy, not just surface-level sympathy, through the lens of our own experiences.
Navigating the murky waters of emotional support, we reveal our tales of empathy misses and the lessons learned along the way. From the 'bolter' who shies away from painful recollections to the 'fixer' who rushes to problem-solve, we confront the instincts that can inadvertently silence the very people we aim to comfort.
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Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to show up for yourself and embrace the mess that lives underneath. Because, let's be real, it's exhausting always being fine. So grab your headphones and allow yourself to listen, laugh and even cry, because you are not alone. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay.
Speaker 3:Have you ever shared something that was either personal or maybe it was a struggle, only to feel like the other person didn't really get you or get it. Not that they were mean, but something just didn't really sit right. Well, join us today as we unpack the concept of empathy, misses, how it feels on the receiving end, and maybe even bring to your awareness some that you might be guilty of. I'm your host, christine.
Speaker 4:And I'm Teresa, so let's freaking get into it.
Speaker 3:I think both you and I, titi, know the power of shared experience and the connection that comes from that, especially like the empathizing with someone struggle. I mean that's kind of how we met.
Speaker 4:Yeah, definitely, and I will be one to say you know, empathy is not, I would say, a strong suit of mine, but I have learned why are you laughing? It's been long researched the positive impacts on decision making, moral judgment, short and long-term well-being and your relationships when you are able to empathize with people.
Speaker 3:Oh God, absolutely. There's a lot to unpack here. Let's start with what empathy is. Now I know we tend to think of empathy and sympathy and we get that mixed up, but that's like very surface level and guys, I get it. I am pretty sure I was a first year master, maybe second year master student when I finally sorted out the difference between empathy and sympathy. So before I share where I think we go wrong, do you want to take a stab at the definition injuries or like what it is?
Speaker 4:Sure, For me now this might not have been my definition a couple of years ago because I needed some work in that department. It's all about self-realization, but for me now I would say that empathy is really being able to kind of understand what someone else is going through and see, I want to say empathize with that, but you can't use the word to define it.
Speaker 3:This is an English class, so if you would like to, you can use the word. No, I'm definitely not the grammar teacher over here, yeah.
Speaker 4:So you're you're able to see, in my opinion, where people are coming from, You're able to kind of feel what they're feeling and you're able to understand why they feel that way.
Speaker 3:So that's a great basic definition, but where it falls a little bit short and I think so many of us miss this aspect, that empathy is the connection of a feeling, not the connection of the experience. And what I mean by that is that we don't have to experience the exact same thing to be able to show compassion, to understand, to empathize with someone. We've had to have the same emotion at some point in our life or experience something that caused that emotion at some point in our life in order to have that connection kind of come through. And I think, titi, we are great examples of what I'm trying to say here. Our experience was not the same. We did not both have rare diseases. I had the rare disease and you were a caretaker and a mother of a child with a rare disease. The daily experience was very different for both of us, but we were able to show each other that true empathy, because I didn't need to walk in your exact shoes to know the isolation, the pain that you were experiencing. It was the feeling that we shared.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's also a big part of why people miss on empathy because they might not have, you know, whether it be a direct or indirect connection. They might not have that to resonate with them. Like you said, for me I was able to be like okay, our experiences with rare disease is different, but I understand how hard it is in my own way. So I think that's really where empathy misses calm, because if you don't have some form of shared experience, even if it's different, it is going to be hard for you to resonate with someone else and to understand where they're coming from. And that's why I think being aware of that and also being aware if you're not the greatest in the empathy department, I think that's huge because it is something you can work on, like if you're aware that you're not the most empathetic person or okay, I may not resonate or understand what this person is going through but like if you understand how to still be empathetic without having those experiences. That's the key to it all, I think.
Speaker 3:Well, exactly Because, again, if I felt a certain type of way when, like, my dog died, as somebody else, when their father died, right, like it's not. It's not about comparing, it's not about those experiences, but it's about is that grief, right? It's that pain that is associated, it's that shared feeling and empathy misses are actually extremely dangerous in every relationship because they will always do two things they will always invalidate somebody's live experience and they will always block authentic connection. So here we go, the meat of this episode. Let's talk about the buckets of empathy misses.
Speaker 4:Ooh, I love when we do buckets.
Speaker 3:So I know buckets are a new thing. I decided that like it's going to be on a share buckets. I was going with another analogy and I, a hundred percent, was like oh no, we're keeping the bucket thing Okay. So I went back and forth about how we were just going to like read them off and I was like that's boring, so Titi. What I want you to do is think of a time that you were sharing with someone and it was just like hard stop, swing and a miss three strikes. You're out in terms of someone empathizing with, like your experience.
Speaker 4:So like they weren't able to empathize with my experience. Yes, so this might throw this episode in for a monkey wrench, because what we talked about earlier is, you know, being able to empathize because you have shared experiences, even though they may be different. But I would say that my biggest empathy miss that I've experienced with other people was actually in the very beginning of Owen's diagnosis, and it was among BWS families, but it was not among BWS families that were fresh in their experience. It was among BWS families, but it was not among BWS families that were fresh in their experience. It was among BWS families who were years ahead and through a lot of the hard stuff. I was explaining how I felt.
Speaker 4:I think I wrote a blog episode or something about my feelings, about how desperate I was feeling, how upset whatever. It's a lot in the beginning, and I had BWS families, ones that their children were older and they were through the trenches basically telling me like, oh, it's not that bad, oh, it gets better, oh you're wasting time feeling horrible when they live healthy, great lives. And I was floored. I was like how could they be saying that to me when they are BWS families? I could not wrap my brain around it. But now, four years later, or however many years later since I started doing what I'm doing, I get how they could feel that way. If they don't constantly remind themselves of what the beginning was like, they forget to take themselves back there. And I don't know if it's easier for me to take myself back there because I've been publicly sharing our journey, I don't know, but that was such a big miss for me because those were the people that I felt like should have been the ones that understood the most.
Speaker 3:Oh, yes, now, what you said is true, but I think there's something deeper going on there.
Speaker 3:I call this type of empathy miss and the perpetrator of this the bolter. This type of empathy miss comes from the avoidance of a negative or a hard feeling. Their own discomfort causes them to refuse to see anyone else's pain. They will automatically minimize and pivot, avoiding any real acknowledgement of the pain or the experience that you have shared with this person. They want to make sure what you are sharing goes away and that is why it's an empathy miss. And to your example specifically, I think that the pain that they felt you know their child going through this and the fear of like get child getting cancer, like that's what they're avoiding is that discomfort, and so they can't hear your real experience right now or empathize with how scared you were, because all in their mind they're processing the idea that they could go back there and so, like they're bolting from this, they can't have it. So, yes, that that bucket I would call is the bolter, the one that avoids and minimizes at all costs.
Speaker 4:Yeah, once I experienced that, I literally made it a mission of mine to never make a new BWS family feel that way, because there's always so much guilt. You feel guilt, to begin with, amongst yourself for feeling the way you feel, whether it be, oh my gosh, like my son and his tongue. I don't want people to. You know what I mean. Whatever you are thinking of, you put that guilt on yourself already. I never want to add to that guilt. So anytime I'm talking to a new BWS family and they like just pour their feelings to me, I'm like your feelings are valid, you are allowed to feel that way. I don't let them wallow in it, but I also tell them like you need to give yourself space to feel that way and it is okay.
Speaker 3:No, absolutely, and I think to your point. We're all guilty of empathy misses. It's a matter of how you respond, how you keep it in your conscious mind to be a better version for yourself for the people around you. Because if you keep it in your conscious mind to be a better version for yourself for the people around you, because if you've been on the receiving end of this, you know how absolute shit it is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and of course I'm going to give you another example, and this is one I am really like, this is one I'm bad at, and it's trying to fix or trying to offer advice. I do that all the time, especially with Mike and I, and what does that sound like?
Speaker 3:So if I was just like, oh, I don't know, can't get out of bed today, or Mike said something that was like, oh, work was really hard today, like what would be your go-to response or like your go-to fix it? I know, like I heard, have you tried yoga? So many goddamn times when I'm like, oh, when they were dizzy, have you tried yoga? It is like worked wonders for my uncle Sue's second cousin removed. I give a shit about your uncle Sue's cousin removed.
Speaker 4:I will say it is very hard, but Mike sometimes will just be like I just want you to listen, I don't want a fix, I just want you to listen. And that is the one I struggle with the most. I will be honest because, for example, he'll say oh, I like I woke up. He'll wake up and be like my body really hurts today and I'll immediately be like oh well, if you take a walk or if you get up and go to the gym, Not eating Chick-fil-A.
Speaker 3:I'm kidding Mike.
Speaker 4:Well, we are always going to eat Chick-fil-A. We love.
Speaker 3:Chick-fil-A.
Speaker 4:But you know, because I know that those things work for me and they probably would work for him.
Speaker 3:But in that moment he doesn't need that. And that's a hard one. It's very hard. For me it's a huge empathy mix. The fixer right, this persona and I think because we live in such a solution-focused world a lot of times if you're not problem solving like this is seen as a very good quality right To be a problem solver. It's very valued. But many times these empathy misses are they stem from discomfort. Discomfort at the heart of the fixer is all about them listening and sitting with the discomfort that they cannot fix, help or solve the problem. One because it's not theirs to solve, and then two because sometimes when someone tells you they have a terminal disease or his body hurts, like there's nothing that you as a wife can, can do right for that, and so you immediately go into that problem-solving mode, that like hyper kind of controlling mode, where you're literally out there singing the builder can we fix it of the builder? Yes, can we fix it Of the builder? Yes, we can. And you know that I mean.
Speaker 4:I will say, though it this one's hard, though, so like, if you do feel like there is a suggestion you could give that would be helpful to them, when is the appropriate time to give it to them? Just never.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I might. Oh, teresa wants to spoil my, my balance tool, my balance tool for the week, but it's fine. What, what? My biggest thing, though, is what cause? I'm a fixer as well. I come from a long line of fixers. I'm pretty sure we were Mrs Bob the builder, whoever that wife is.
Speaker 3:That that's my lineage so, and it really bothered me because, obviously, the yoga thing, like those, are the kind of things you get in the chronic illness community. Or you know, when I say I'm really anxious and someone tells me to breathe, it's like oh God. But my first response to any of this is how can I help? How can I show up for you? Because that allows them to tell you I need you like right. That prompts a question that makes it so you don't have to mind read right. You don't have to know if Mike wants you to offer suggestions and be in problem solving mode or if he just wants to vent. You're putting the onus where it should be, which is the person who is sharing, and it also gives you a second for like all the synapses, to kind of like your emotions, to meet your memory, like all that, to kind of connect and give that pause. But what if?
Speaker 4:you've got someone that perpetually does that. I'm challenging you.
Speaker 3:Oh, you are challenging me today, ok, because this is a tough one for me, because it's like I think context matters, right, every single time you and Mike are in a conversation, or you and the boys, right, I don't think every single one of those is a time in which they are seeking connection, which is the main reason these empathy misses come right. When I'm not seeking connection, right, I don't care if someone says, have you tried yoga? Like it doesn't. You know what I mean. It's after I've shared a struggle, it's after I reached out for connection in which I'm sharing something that has been difficult for me, and then I met with, like you know, that invalidation that it becomes a problem.
Speaker 3:And I think that's where the difference between a fixer and somebody who's trying to help you solve a problem is, because the fixer is that is coming out of like control and avoidance of the discomforts, because it's about their own problems, right, so they probably haven't listened to anything that you've said.
Speaker 3:And so, right, when I'm talking about my chronic illness and you're telling me, right to go do yoga, it's like you can feel the very much disconnect, right.
Speaker 3:And so if Mike's like getting out of bed and he says about like his body hurting and the first thing you said is like a walk Right, I would bet that you're probably discomfort too and you're probably tired because you had to do a double shift with the boys and he got all of the things that are coming into it as opposed to taking a moment in that one. I think that one is like an empathy miss, as opposed to some of the other ones you're talking about, in which, like perpetually doing it, and I think that there is a time in which you have to be like firm and hard, but I think the bottom line difference to when it's an empathy miss or not is around the connection piece. You know Time place matter. If you will, okay, which I actually think you are pretty good. I can't think I do not meet you at your peak of empathy. Let's just say yeah, no.
Speaker 3:I met you at like I don't know, like you're on a voyage of finding empathy, but my point of saying that is I don't believe if you didn't have a pretty good meter of that, we could have ever connected. That's true. I never felt like we had an empathy miss, and even in the times where you did not understand why I could not text you back or you did not understand why I would go M-I-A on you, you might have chewed me out for something, but it was never at a point in which I was seeking connection, right. So you telling me like you need to get better at responding to me, blah, blah, blah. Like giving me that solution or giving me all the ways I could do it, and me telling you, no, I promise you I can't, like it's just not going to happen. That never felt like an empathy, like I never felt disconnected from you because again, it't again.
Speaker 3:But I wasn't seeking connection at that time. I was most of the time just waking up from a flare and looking at 10 messages from you that are angry, right In all of the times in which I felt like there I don't believe we could have ever gotten our relationship to where it was if you didn't have some sort of awareness of you know of that and I think for people who may not have that, like right off the bat, I can't say what would you tell them to do, because I think you're still processing that. You have a good meter, so we might have to come back and follow up on that one, but I think bringing it to your awareness, like you said earlier, is the first step and I think that you had experienced enough empathy misses by the time I met you that you could seek out when I was that vulnerable connection and I needed someone to be like. I understand the struggle is real.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely getting better at it. I think my biggest struggle with it is like the perpetual like. It's hard for me for something to continue on and on, and on and on and know that there are things that someone can do but they're not doing it.
Speaker 3:And then in my brain it switches to like okay, well, now it kind of just seems like you're complaining with no action, and then that's where like, but I think that's where it gets, like I'm perceived as rough or like not that nice, but I do think it's a healthy balance there, right, I think there is a boundary that you could put there and say like look, I'm here to listen, but I'm not going to continue to give you my thoughts, my advice, my energy until you know you're in a different place. That's a boundary you could put up. But I think, right there though it goes out of empathy and into, essentially, like people are allowed to have whatever emotional responses they have, like that doesn't always mean they're seeking connection though, right, and so I think it's more. Do you want to be someone's complaint box? Right, and like you're allowed to put a boundary up to be like you know what?
Speaker 3:I got two sons, that like, that's all the complaints I can take. I take them up until 6 PM and then I check out Out of office. Yeah, right, you'll find that those relationships will look different, right, those people who kind of are in the same thing, because, again, most people who are looking for connection, that's the solve, right, solve will be the connection, and therefore, then I wouldn't be coming back and back and back to you, right, because I'm not seeking connection. Right, I'm seeking complaining, right.
Speaker 4:I also like the way that you bring up connection, because I never really thought about empathy and connection and I think that's why this other empathy miss is a big one, and it's when people are competing for who has it worse, Like for my example, right Owen has gone through a lot but he has yet to have the cancer piece.
Speaker 4:Thank God I have never had this happen, but it would be like if I went to a family and if I didn't know that their child had cancer and it would be like, well, my kid had cancer, yours didn't. And that for me, would completely sever any connection that I was hoping to have with that person. Because while that is horrible and I yes, that absolutely is worse than anything that Owen has dealt with thus far it still doesn't mean that what he has dealt with wasn't difficult.
Speaker 3:I wish I could claim this line, but unfortunately I cannot. I don't know if you remember Dr Dashi Teresa. She was my therapist in the height of like you and me working together, and I used to struggle with this a lot like because I used to feel very much so that I couldn't complain or have any emotions about my disease, nor could I share my story, because I was still able to work full time. I was still able to run a business.
Speaker 3:And she looked at me and she said just because the cards you were given are different than somebody else's cards does not mean you have to be thankful for the cards you were given. The best.
Speaker 3:I love that line. I wish I could claim it, dr Dashie, shout out. But what I think with there's so many empathy misses and there's so much more at the core of this. I didn't even know I had so many names for this, I ended up going with the captain of the struggle bus because this miss is rooted in not feeling enough, not feeling like they're enough, not feeling like they have, like feeling like they have something to prove, or mistaking connections with one upping behavior.
Speaker 3:For instance, right, ever be talking to someone and it's like my gosh, you know, like I'm really struggling I was just diagnosed with, or my son was just diagnosed with, a rare disease. And then it's like, oh my gosh, like I have a rare disease, like before you even finish, like you know what I mean, like saying that, and then all of a sudden, it's like every, it's like match for match, and then right, I think, especially within things that are invisible for people. So we're talking grief, mental illness, illness, negative self-talk, I'm talking about everything on the spectrum. I think there's this feeling of needing to prove or validate, or validate our behaviors too. And right. So, for instance, I work. I've never stopped working. Part of that, I think is just stupidity. Part of that is the way I was raised right. Just because my behaviors right Don't look like somebody else's behaviors who might have a similar condition, it gets into this very weird olympics for the worst kind of like life thing.
Speaker 4:Which is why I said the captain of the struggle bus, because this person loves their role, like put a c on their chest it's also really hard too, because I do this is one of those ones that I do believe there are people very rooted in what you're talking about. They don't accept themselves. They want to be the leader of the pack in the struggle bus packs but I also believe some people do it innocently, in order to let the other person know they have common ground and that they understand.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and that's where that's hard One like it ends up being one upping and they're they're missing the behavior that they're doing. Right, rather than come connecting on a feeling right, they're coming at you with the experience. For instance, oh, my dad just passed away. It's like, oh, my grandma passed away. It was really really hard for me and my family. We ended up doing this and this. I took off work for this, right, and so I completely agree with you.
Speaker 3:And that's that second part, there where it's most of the time you're just mistaking connection for kind of like inserting your experience that you feel is equivalent to whatever the person said. Right, like, right, lost a dog, I lost a goldfish, you know. Like I lost a job. Oh my God, that was really hard for me too. Right, and I think actually when I was younger I really struggled with this a lot.
Speaker 3:I wanted so badly, but again, I think it was very rooted in like self-acceptance and finding, like trying to figure out who I was. One of the most beautiful things about my rare disease was the fact that I got my head together. My internal world became a little bit more healthy healthy. But having empathy and showing compassion does not take away from your struggle, nor does it limit your ability to receive that compassion and empathy in return. I think sometimes we think that if we say, wow, that's really hard, or we validate or we don't do the whole competing thing, we think that, well then, how will the audience feel bad for me if they're over here feeling bad for Teresa, because, like her, you know what I mean Like. So there's this misunderstanding that there's only like a certain amount of empathy to go around in a room. Right, empathy really does stack onto itself, because I think the empathy requires self-acceptance and most of the time at that level you're going to see a lot of vulnerability and authenticity.
Speaker 4:It also requires self-realization. You know, just for me, once I was able to well, first, like I was able to identify when people weren't really being empathetic with me, but because I was able to finally identify that, then I was able to be like, wait a minute, I might be doing this to someone else without realizing it. So it's very important to be able to recognize when it's happening to you and then communicate effectively with someone and be like, hey, right now I really need you to just listen and I really need you to just like, try your best to understand where I'm coming from. And then, once you're able to do that, if you put empathy as an importance in your life, you are going to be able to realize oh shoot, I missed on that one. You know, and I think that's really important for both handling when someone doesn't give you empathy and then also being more empathetic to others 100%, and I mean, I think, to your point.
Speaker 3:there's two things I want to call out. One you realizing, right, that you aren't empathetic. I think what you do a very good job is that self-acceptance piece where it's like you don't try to pretend you're the most empathetic person, right?
Speaker 3:So I also feel like there's a transparency there in which, like if you weren't being empathetic with me at this point and I think anybody who's close to you would agree I would just say to you like dude, seriously, like you know what I mean, and I think that would then reset your, your kind of like scope. I also think that self-realization or self-awareness helps, because you know this too, like when you, when your onset of your autoimmune disease come on, a lot of things clicked into place for you that I was talking about, the experience. It became different, and it's funny because I never thought that you needed to apologize or like I never felt like that. But I think when you have a deeper understanding of an experience in a different way and I think sometimes, like life just does that it allows you to again it humbles you.
Speaker 3:Well, exactly right. It's about that self-acceptance and being okay enough to be transparent, authentic, vulnerable, take accountability. I mean one of the hardest boundaries I've had to put up in my life has been the internal ones around what I share with whom. Because unfortunately, these responses are so natural for all of us and there's so many more buckets in the three we talked about today that I had to put boundaries up for people I love, because the negative impacts of the misses and the invalidation were so big for me and I think you become a safe person by by. You never felt like an unsafe person. I think a large part of that is because you owned that part of yourself while still growing right. It's like not an owned ignorance, it was an owned. Look, I'm not that great at it, but it's not my intent to be harsh with you or to not understand or to not give you the empathy or connection you're looking for right.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent.
Speaker 3:I think it's also interesting if you swap out an empathy and connection, like in a sentence, right, it's like, instead of being like the empathy you were looking for, like the connection you were looking for, I also feel like it also becomes a little easier to see what you're like, the transaction that's happening.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, no, that makes sense. Okay, so, as a licensed therapist, what would you say to all of our listeners before we go to help them with receiving empathy misses and also challenging themselves to be better with empathy misses and also challenging themselves to be better with empathy misses?
Speaker 3:Okay. So before we go, I want to invite all of us, right, because we're all guilty of it To really be present in the conversations that we have over the next week. Just start small the next week and try to fight any urges you have to avoid, judge, minimize, fix when responding to those around you. I mean, I know for myself it was really a struggle when this was happening to me. It really opened my eyes to see how much of an empathy miss I was as someone, and also someone who prides myself right as a therapist, as the person I want to be, as a good listener. To realize I was doing this so much was really jarring for me. But now, like I said earlier, this one sentence has completely changed my responses, and no one's perfect, but I do feel comfortable in saying that I'm a strong empathizer. I am able to provide the support that those around me need, even if like You're a great empathizer.
Speaker 4:Literally you're a great empathizer. I feel like I could come to you and be like I'm going to complain to Christine about the most minuscule thing and she's going to make me feel so validated. I could complain that I couldn't get a lid off of a container or something and I would feel great after talking to you.
Speaker 3:Well, if you ask me, I would say that you know well, how many things did you do today? You know like, can you give yourself a break? I mean, you started at six o'clock with Owen, anyway, but yeah, see what I mean.
Speaker 4:I can't even help myself, but so good, so good.
Speaker 3:So, like again, that one line is how can I help? How can I show up for you Any version of that right, anything of that right, anything in which you're putting the I don't want to say responsibility the person first. But also, again, you're not a mind reader and I know for me. Sometimes I want you to solve my problems, like chat GBT does, and sometimes I want you to shut up and say absolutely nothing. And don't forget the most important category in which I want you to hate absolutely everything. I hate, burn the sticks down to the ground. The most important category, because there's nothing worse than when I'm in that mood and my mom hits me with a. You know, I don't think that's a really like. You know, either not a big deal or like, let's be positive.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no. When we're burning to the ground, I need that moment of burning it to the ground, and so yeah, we got to burn to the ground together.
Speaker 3:A hundred percent. I need to know that we ride at dawn. So you know, just putting that back on that person, you're not a mind reader, allow them to tell you. And honestly, again, it takes a huge burden off of you. I don't know about anyone else, but I mean even professionally.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, when people come in and they tell me about their weeks, I'm like, oh my God, it's only been seven days and all this has happened, you know like what. So I just was like, okay, how can I show up for you? What do you need? Do we need to move a session? Do we like? What do I need to do to help you the best in this moment, right now? And I think just kind of inserting that will create a new automatic response for you and then also give you a little bit more time, cause I know sometimes the connection to make that experience to the feeling to then the connection can be slow a hundred percent. And so how can I help? I think is my go-to number one and again, just spend the week. I think something you can't unsee. You know that's all we got for you this week. Peeps, if you enjoyed the show, please go ahead and leave us a review. We love hearing from you. We'll catch you later this week. Until then, mind your health.
Speaker 2:Seriously, you're fine. You're fine because you have the power to access your place of peace anytime you need it. However, if you get stuck, we're right at the palm of your hand to help. Check out our show notes for this week's source list, recommended content and Cabana Live Group schedule. We'll catch you next week for a brand new episode of You're Always Fine.
