Finding Common Ground with Skeptics with Reiki Women Podcasts

In today's episode of the Reiki Women Podcast, hosts Michaela Daystar from Heartscapes Reiki, Bronwen Logan from Reiki with Bronwen, and Carrie Varela from The Reiki Healing Society extend their insights on handling skepticism around the system of Reiki. 

The discussion focuses on the various reasons people might be skeptical of the system and shares useful advice on how to engage these individuals, emphasizing respect to their perspectives and inviting them to experience Reiki first-hand. 

Michaela, Bronwen, and Carrie narrate their personal experiences with skeptical individuals, provide pointers on how to talk about the system of Reiki and the necessity to balance skepticism with personalized experiences. 

00:06 Introduction and Welcome
00:52 Understanding Skepticism in Reiki Practice
01:54 Dealing with Skepticism: Personal Experiences
03:55 The Role of Skepticism in Spiritual Practices
04:21 The Benefits of the system of Reiki: Personal Testimonies
06:06 Reiki and Skepticism: Other Practitioners' Perspectives
06:55 The system of Reiki and the New Age Movement
07:48 The Challenges of Defending the system
10:17 Reiki and the Placebo Effect
12:32 Reiki and Skepticism: A Deeper Dive
24:07 Reiki and the Spiritual but Not Religious Movement
28:33 Reiki and Physical Healing
39:43 Reiki and Lifestyle Changes
41:58 Understanding and Meeting Skepticism
44:40 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Here are two links about what we talked about today: 
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOQDJOm1-4

2. https://greenmedinfo.com/blog/reiki-improves-heart-attack-outcomes-yale-study-confirms?fbclid=IwAR3fjOouG8Q7gzNvYdv4xLyRIoL8KxZw5Tv9nuMljaKPbLngdeXJgV1NTuw

Additional Resources:
- Join our Facebook Group: Embodying Reiki
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1564135767437136
- Subscribe to our YouTube channel
 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz6Jk8QD_8hjlfpSM8suMIA

Bronwen Logan: https://ReikiwithBronwen.com
Carrie Varela: https://www.reikihealingsociety.com
Michaela Daystar: https://www.heartscapesinsight.com/

🔔 Don't forget to subscribe, comment, and share to spread the knowledge and connect with the Reiki community.

Transcript

rwpskeptics: 0:06

Hello friends, welcome back to the Reiki Women podcast. My name is Michaela from Heartscapes Reiki and with me today, as always, is Bronwyn Logan from Reiki with Bronwyn and Carrie Varela from the Reiki Healing Society. And we are circling back together again today to have a chat about something that, um, for anybody who has been, um, interested in Reiki. practicing Reiki or any similar type of practice that's a little bit outside of what one might consider conventional spaces. This is something you have probably encountered, a type of person that you have encountered perhaps as a client, perhaps as a colleague, perhaps a stranger on the street, maybe within your family. This is the skeptic, the person who just doesn't quite accept or believe. or vibe with what you are throwing down about your work with the system of Reiki or similar practices. And the question that we sometimes get asked, um, and that was asked in the Reiki Healing Society recently, is what do you do with those conversations when somebody confronts you or even just questions with that energy of skepticism? And that might look like a client who's not quite sure. If Reiki is for them or is going to work for them, but maybe they've shown up anyway, but it could also be the whole other side of the spectrum. Somebody who just is adamantly rejecting what you have to say about the system of Reiki. So we thought we would chat a little bit about our experiences with that. And, um, who knows, there may be some useful, uh, Useful offerings for those of you who might be navigating skeptics in your practice. So Carrie, I'd love to hear, since this was a question that came up most recently in your group, um, although I think we've, we've all kind of, uh, had to work with it from time to time. I'd love to hear what is coming up for you. Yeah, great. I, um, yeah, I think we've all probably had to deal with skeptics one way or the other. Um, truthfully also, In my own process, I feel like I've had to kind of confront my own inner skeptic or my own self critical, um, you know, belief system because, you know, Reiki is, it is intangible, you know, it is, it dwells in this realm of subtlety and, uh, for a certain type of person who may be wired a certain way, um, You know, that subtlety is either lost on them or it's a struggle to find value with it. And I think a lot of times, skepticism also can point us in the direction of some sort of spiritual trauma, where somebody might be closed down to this whole notion of spiritual healing, due to some sort of traumatic events in their, in their childhood or their lives or simply never being raised. In that environment, where spirituality, religion, was never emphasized or valued within your community, within your household, et cetera. So there's a lot of different ways I think it can come up, but, uh, I've definitely felt well, uh, have definitely had clients before. People off the street, uh, people I don't even know that I've just met that I'm kind of answering this very uncomfortable question sometimes of what I do for a living where they come at me with this very skeptical energy or they come in there to disprove me or Um, to somehow try to belittle what I do and what I offer through my Reiki practice. And, um, I think there, there's a space for skepticism and we should always nourish our own inner skeptic. Like we can't just blindly believe. everything that we've ever been taught or learned. Um, but because Reiki dwells in this realm of subtlety, there's so many different stories I think we've created about the practice of Reiki. And the truth is that Reiki benefits people. I mean, people have really benefited from the practice of Reiki, myself included. And it's nothing I can prove through any sort of scientific means, but to say that I'm an example of that, that the benefits that Reiki has brought into my life, I've embodied them, and I can share that embodiment with my students. Um, with my clients and hold space for them to have their own experience with repeat and to decide for themselves and, um, one of my yoga teachers who I just really admire, um, hit one of his taglines is nothing to prove everything to share. And he uses that in the context of a rate. Um, a yoga teacher training. So after you've done a 200 hour yoga teacher training, you're just like, so stoked about yoga. All you want to do is share it with other people. And you've just learned this ability to share it with other people. And he just encourages us to keep that fire of enthusiasm going for us. And that, um, It really, our task is to share that joy and enthusiasm with people, whether they believe us or not. Um, and, and, uh, you know, ignite that fire for them as well. So, you know, spiritual healing, if we think about Reiki using that definition, it has the benefit, you know, it's benefited. Me in so many different ways. So I think it's always helpful when you're talking to skeptics, is to speak to them in a language that they can understand and then talk about the benefits and talk about the experiences you've had, that you've, um, perhaps, uh, facilitated for others and, um, you know, start speaking on those terms. I think we could also talk a little bit more about the science of Reiki, which I think is really, Part and parcel of this conversation, but I'd love to give it back to you guys and hear your points of view about this whole topic of Reiki and Skeptics. Yeah, I think that's really good practical advice. Um, yeah, I mean for me personally, I We've, we've talked about this before, but from the moment that I, um, studied the system of Reiki, like immediately the moment I sort of knew that this was something really amazing. And, and that's not, that's, that's hard to bring across to someone because that's experiential rather than anything else. Right. Um, but I, what I do think is, I think there are a couple of issues for the system of Reiki. And, uh, one is that, It gets connected with the new age movement. Now I've actually got nothing against the new age movement. I think it's something that's been, you know, a lot of the practices within it have been around for thousands of years. Right. And, uh, but they, but when we, when people Uh, link the two together, we're linking two different practices together. So any skeptical issues that people have with the new age movement, that's not related to the system of Reiki. And it's very hard for people to know that when we have Reiki practitioners who actually include a lot of new age stuff into the system of Reiki. So that is an issue, I think, for the system of Reiki and for, um, for practitioners. Like ourselves, uh, because it's not what we practice and, um, it's very hard then to have to, to defend something that. has actually nothing to do with what you're doing. I think for, for me, the system of Reiki is much more in line with what I would consider a Japanese martial art. And I'm not quite sure that skeptics get so hot under the collar about martial arts. Right. So, um, I, so I would see that differently. And I think the problems of the, of Um, the new age movement having come in really, you know, would have begun in, in the seventies and, and move through. And, uh, you know, one of my missions has always been to help people to understand that it's. Those elements are actually not a part of the system of Reiki. And, and when we talk about this subject, I thought at the beginning, I thought, what am I going to talk about? But then I realized all of this and I thought, you know, it's so important, isn't it? You know, and, um, people can be skeptical for sure. Um, but. They need to know what they're being skeptical about. And, uh, yeah, I have this thing in my classes where, or, and, and in treatments where I refuse to defend the system of Reiki as well. I'm not going to go get into conflict with anyone about this practice. And the reason is because of the first thing that I said, which is it's an experiential thing. And no matter how many words I can throw at someone, it's not going to change my experience. Yeah. And I want someone to have their own experience and see what that does. Last week, um, what was the subject? Oh, living the Reiki precepts, you know, and we were talking about, uh, you know, it's not, um, it's not what we feel. Which this is where we get in problems with science, right? It's not what we feel. It's how we feel. That is the important part of the system of Reiki. And it's like Carrie said, changes you, you know, and changes how you think about things, how you think about your life, how you approach life. Um, but you can't. Make that happen to anybody, they can only ever experience it for themselves. We've had past, uh, episodes on the placebo, for example. And I think that is, uh, a really, uh, that was, you know, one of, um, our favorite ones from last year, I guess. Yep. And just the idea of the placebo, and I'm not saying that the system of Reiki is a placebo as such, I'm just saying that the effect of placebo on everything, it affects everything that we do, because it's how we think, what our intentions are, our thoughts, um, is going to affect our experience of life. And these are the sort of lessons that the system of Reiki has for us. And these are not things that really we can scientifically prove, except for Our wellbeing and, uh, that's where I always think as far as scientific research goes, I don't know, Carrie, you might have some, some good thoughts on this one or Michaela as well. But, you know, for me, it's, it's very much like we can measure, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how we're feeling, you know, do we feel like crap? Are we feeling happier? Do we feel more resilient? You know, these are things that are not about, um, curing something. In fact, the other day, so I've got problems with my hips, right? And, um, it's a degenerative thing. And the other day I, I spoke to someone and I said, Oh yeah, no, I've got a problem with that because of my hips. And they said, what? But you're a Reiki practitioner. I said, yeah, I am. And I die too. You know, we all die. So, you know, it's, it's like some somewhere along the line, the system of Reiki has been lifted up into some sort of impossible thing that, um, we can't live up to. I think, you know, I actually have a lot more things written down here, but I'll let someone else talk and maybe some of them, but, you know, We, we are making it into something, or some, some people are making it into something that it's not, and, uh, you know, then it's very hard for us to practice and, and to talk about what we do because it is an impossible task. Yeah, you're, you're bringing so much forward. And that, that episode on the placebo effect also came right to mind when I was kind of thinking about how to step into this topic. and the, the idea of, of, okay, but how do we feel after we engage the thing? Carrie, I wanted to circle back to something that you spoke to that I think is so important, which is that a skeptical nature Is is a good thing, right? It is. It is. It is a mindset that can help us be discerning. It can help us pay attention to the information that's coming in. It can be help us be discerning about the experiences that we have. It can help us filter through a tremendous amount of information that comes towards us. You know, many, many, many different things that are offered to us that are sold to us that are proposed to us as being, you know, the thing that's gonna. Solve the problem that we're working with and without, you know, as they say, a healthy dope dose of skepticism, um, we can fall for a lot of things that are not really actually in our best interests or effective and, you know, not even talking about. Uh, you know, spiritual practice or healing or, you know, but just in life in general, right? We talk about the food that we eat or a school that we might want to attend or, you know, truly any decision that we might be faced with. Um, there's the possibility that we will, you know, be faced with options that on face value might seem valuable. But when we dig a little bit deeper, uh, we find that it's not actually a right fit, a good alignment, or even. A real and good thing at all. Um, and without a little bit of a, of a skeptical nature, um, we might not do that digging. We might not scratch the surface. We might not look, look underneath and we might be taken advantage of or waste a lot of time and resources, you know, following a path that ends up not being right. Um, so our skeptical. Uh, capacity is something that can be nourished, can be respected, of course, any aspect of ourself can get out of balance. There could be too much of it or too little of it, um, within the system of soul collage that I, that I facilitate that I talk about sometimes, you know, when we talk about an, an aspect of ourself being shadowed, we're, we're talking about it in those terms, you know, there's maybe too much of it or too little of it. So too little skepticism, we might get taken advantage of or waste time and resources. Yeah. Too much skepticism. We might outright reject anything that comes our way that's outside of a very narrow definition of what is good and true and right. That is You know, maybe a little bit too bound up in in a narrow beliefs. So obviously, finding a balanced place with our skeptical nature is valuable to us just as people. And when we talk about a system of Healing a system of spiritual practice where, you know, potentially you're going to invest a tremendous amount of energy of time of heart, you know, of, of feeling, uh, of belief of vulnerability, um, of trust, possibly of money in to, uh, practitioners to help us. We want to be able to be discerning and to be make good choices. And so, you know, on the other side of that, we as practitioners who for our own reasons, our own experiences believe in what we're offering, right? I'm going to just go ahead and make the assumption that those of you listening, you're, you believe in what you're offering, right? You have reason to believe it through your own experiences. And when we're faced with that person who's like, um I'm not sure if this is for me or if I'm not sure if this is for real, uh, I'm not sure if what you're saying, you know, really is something I should believe or take in or take on for my own practice. I think a really great place to start is to respect their skeptical nature, um, to maybe even acknowledge it, right? To, to, um, Just acknowledge the value of it, and that it's actually a good and right way to approach something that's new, that's coming our way. And then the question is, how do we share this thing that we believe in, in a way that can touch something for the skeptic? And I think Bronwyn, you spoke to this so clearly. The system of Reiki and whether or not it's effective has everything to do with our direct experience with it. This is true of so many things, right? There are things that we believe without having experienced them and that's not good or bad, right? It's very Circumstantial, whether or not it's a good idea to believe something that we haven't experienced. Um, but when we have experienced something directly and built our beliefs and opinions about that thing based on our own experience, then we've got a stronger foundation, first of all, to build those beliefs on. Um, and we've got something to build on. One of the things that I appreciate so much. I say this all the time on this podcast, you know, that I appreciate so much about practicing the system of Reiki as much as I can from its origins. As you said, Bronwyn, very much related to Japanese martial arts. That's probably one of the best analogies we can actually put to it. Um, most accurate, um, is that these are practices that are quite grounded. Right. They're quite grounded in direct experience and longstanding traditions and, you know, beliefs and perspectives and experiences with the natural world, with our human nature that have been proven over time to have value, right? Um, whether or not something is true, capital T, that's. It's a deeper topic than we, that we can deal with right now, but to certainly have been proven to have value for humans that engage with them. Um, and the foundation of the system of Reiki from these perspectives is very simple, very clear, very direct, and very easy to, to, to speak to, and then to experience why it would be beneficial. Right? We We practice the system of Reiki to. Be unattached to our fear and our anger to live in a state of gratitude, a state of compassion for self and others, and to be true to ourselves. Um, when presented with that framework that the precepts give us for why would we practice the system? Who can argue with that? Who can, who can like say, okay, those outcomes make no sense, right? Those outcomes are not good outcomes. So if you can accept that those outcomes are good and right outcomes, or put another way, I often say the system of Reiki helps us to live a life that's grounded, spacious, and connected to help us remember ourselves. These are good outcomes. Then the natural right next question is, well, how does this system of practice get you to those outcomes? Well, again, very simple practices, very straightforward, rooted in things that more and more people have more direct experience with things like the importance of breathing and calming our nervous system. Uh, the, uh, the value of meditation and training our mind, um, you know, again, something that most people. Uh, well, I didn't say most people that more and more, there is an understanding that our mindset, as you spoke to Bronwyn is so key in how we feel, how we live our life, what we believe, what we experienced, what becomes possible, our health, you know, so the system of Reiki is about. Training our mind to focus in a particular way that relates to the precepts, right? And so, you know, practicing from that perspective has made it easier, not only, you know, for my practice to be effective for me, but to talk about it with other people. Um, I think Kerry, you said. One of you said to, to really meet people where they are, to use language that's going to be meaningful to them. And when we have a system of practice, that's the foundations of which are so simple and so, so close to being objectively positive, right? I'm not going to like, there'll be somebody who'll be like. Those precepts are stupid. I don't want to live my life that way, you know, but very close to being, you know, pretty universally, uh, positive, um, outcomes, hard to argue with. Uh, when that's our foundation, it's so simple. It, it is not that challenging to find ways of talking about it with people across a really wide spectrum of experience and belief. Uh, and that includes a wide spectrum of religious beliefs, although you'll always run into. To to incompatibility. All right. Um, you know, working with a system of practice that does have its roots in esoteric Buddhism. I have definitely had conversations with, for example, um, you know, people who have a particular Christian perspective that I would say is more fundamentalist in nature. There's going to be just an automatic rejection of something that has its heart in Buddhism. And that's, as you said, Ron, when not something I'm going to argue with, right? I'm not going to, I don't need to defend, you know, this system of practice. That's so, you know, well established in that conversation. That person. gets to have the belief that they have, right? Their skepticism is coming from their own perspective, their own beliefs. I don't have to argue with that. Um, but outside of, you know, cases where a person really has a very, um, strong reason to be skeptical or to, you know, object or reject what you're saying, there's a great flexibility in talking about the system of Reiki. In ways that can resonate with a wide range of people, the more esoteric points, the points that start to feel a little bit more floaty, a little bit less grounded, a little bit less tangible that you would, you would maybe work with as you work deeper with the system. Those don't have to be part of the conversation, right? Not not in the beginning. And I agree with you, Bronwyn, you know, when we, when we come back to the roots of the system of Reiki and. You know, separate that out from the tradition of New Age spirituality that is relatively young and is an amalgamation of lots and lots and lots of different traditions that often get blended in ways that don't necessarily make sense and often raise their unbelievability for the skeptic. Um, when we can kind of separate that world out, um, at least a little bit and how we talk about it, um, it becomes easier. To have conversations with people who are feeling skeptical that are generative and positive and and that open it up and if at all possible, if we can invite that person into a direct experience with a simple, simple, simple practice from the system of Reiki. That's going to make all the difference for them, much more than any words we could say ever will. Well, I, I love all that you have spoken to both you, uh, Makayla and Bronwyn, I think, um, really good points to consider, you know, first of all, that combination between Reiki and, um, you know, new age metaphysical movements. Uh, another way of describing that is, uh, a whole movement around being spiritual, but not religious. And I think that Yosui is actually a part of that because he was developing the system of Reiki at a time where Japan had opened up its doors to the West. There was a lot of movement, uh, between different types of, uh, spiritual traditions. And, um, in many ways, Reiki is kind of a combination of that. Um, can I, can I'm talking to my friends right now. What does this go on? Um, this goes on a bottle of wine. Looked out all of our, our um, Yeah, why don't you put it on your kitty cat? That's a great idea. What an adorable interruption. Oh, sorry. Love it. But, you know, Yasui, the, the creation of Reiki really fell, oh, I'm sorry, uh, fell within, I think, that, how that was happening in Japan, and I think this spiritual but not religious movement is a really powerful one because before, you know, people's whole lives might have been dictated by religion. And, um, you know, our ability to choose for ourselves, to make our own beliefs, um, to, to find a spirituality that's not religious, I think is, is, has been a pathway for me with Reiki. And so I think that that's a really beautiful thing. I think That's a good question. Carrie, do you think that skeptics have an issue with that? Hmm. Because some things kind of come from that, you know, that they're, what they're concerned about potentially within the system of Reiki or any spiritual belief is that they're going to lose their own autonomy, uh, or ability to think for themselves, to decide for themselves, uh, that, uh, spirituality might mean rules, um, And, uh, and potentially also there might be some ancestral or spiritual trauma related to that as well. So, um, you know, I mean, within Buddhism they talk about reincarnation, so potentially we could have past lives of women who were burned at the stake for being witches, and, uh, you know, other people who live monastic lives and are, you know, seeking to grow from the spiritual level outwards. And so the system of Reiki might support them in that, and it might not support them. And that's really only for that person to decide. Does that answer your question? Yeah. I mean, cause I was, uh, thinking about like research papers. Yeah. And when people use spiritual language in research papers, then Scientists tend to take it seriously, even if the research is okay. You know what I mean? Like if it, um, I don't, I mean, I think the spirit, I think the scientific world could possibly loosen up a bit, to be honest, uh, but you know, I'm not a scientist, so, um, but. Yeah, there's that sort of like dislike of spiritual language, or even just loving language, you know, and there's nothing wrong with loving each other. I mean, for goodness sake, you know, like, but with that, that idea that that's Not scientific. I was just curious about that. I don't really know much about it. Yeah. And um, I actually have a really, maybe I can post it for you, um, and we can put it in the show notes, but I have this really good, video from Harvard Medical about, well, first of all, there's been so many Reiki, volunteers who've offered Reiki to, people with serious, health issues like cancer in, in Harvard Medical, Hospitals. I couldn't think of the word there. Distracted. and, you know, the, the administrator of this was said, you know, we want Reiki in our hospitals because people want it. People have been asking for it, people have been benefiting from it. Yeah. Um, and as a result of that, Reiki has received some pretty high profile. Scientific studies on its efficacy, but that is a long process. It takes a lot of funding. It takes a lot of time and efforts and directing of Research capacities into that and I think a good parallel to that is is acupuncture acupuncture You know, as a whole system of medicine developed for thousands of years and acupuncture went under the rigor for I don't know how many medical studies to really prove that it is effective and as a result, it now, you know, is integrated into medical models. And I think that's really wonderful thing. Um, personally, I'd say that I think Reiki fits a little bit better within the context of psychology because it's really dwelling in the space, the subtle space of our mind, our heart, our emotions. And in that, in that space, there is a great way to define the efficacy of it, but it's not necessarily. Having a full healing, you know, where suddenly your cancer is no longer existing in your body. I think that that's a pretty high standard to put on anything. Yeah. Particularly a subtle healing energy like Reiki, um, but nevertheless, we know that there has been some, some pretty powerful healing that's happened for folks, uh, within the context of Reiki, and so I think it's helpful to bring that in too, um. But I think most, uh, Reiki studies haven't really shown a huge, uh, beyond placebo effect for healing physical ailments. But I think within the context of psychology, I think there's so much, um, that Reiki can really, uh, that could be done for Reiki. Yeah, you did very well. Um, and she's got, you've got such lovely hair. Um, yeah, I was thinking, uh, in line with that, uh, the ideas of urban myths and, you know, I think how harming. A lot of those are to the system of Reiki. And, you know, this idea that if someone has a pacemaker that you can't, um, give them a Reiki treatment, for example, um, or, uh, I mean, there's Must be a, there are a lot more of those types of myths, but when people hear that, you know, it's it, I mean, we've spoken about this before, if it were true, you know, we'd be famous if we could actually do that sort of thing. And, you know, as you said, Carrie, it's subtle. And it's not, um, it isn't, I know we can have cathartic experiences for sure. Um, and that's very much depends upon the space that we're in at the time and what we're going through. There's like a mini Carrie and, um, you know, it's, it's like what, um, you know, whatever we're going through, how open we are to that shift and that change that will result in how we feel. Yeah. But, um, it's not like the, you know, I always say Reiki, you know, it's not a pill. It's not like if I do this, this comes out, that is not the type of system it is. And that's why it can be difficult to research. And, uh, I think as Carrie was saying, you know, possibly within, um, the more psychological aspects of it. Uh, you know, we could, we could definitely find out more about, about, uh, the benefits of it. For sure. Carrie, I love this idea of, um, kind of re contextualizing Reiki under the system of psychology more so than physical medicine. Um, That's really compelling. I love that. That might be another topic that we take into a little bit more. But, but I think that you're right that that, that, um, bringing those 2 worlds together in an analogy, it can be really helpful for this conversation about, um, you know, helping people understand where we're coming from with the system, what the benefits are, and how the practices and the benefits, It's a line with each other because, you know, as we're saying, truly, this is a practice of, of mindset and of integrating our, our attention where we focus our mind, our physical body, you know, how well, uh, grounded we are, how, uh, we're holding, um, ourselves so that we're maximizing, you know, the movement of, of oxygen and blood and our body and so on. And, um, and our breath, you know, the way that that all flows together, that integrating those things, um, have demonstrable benefits in how, how we feel, what, uh, our mindset is, how well we're able to pay attention, our clarity and so on, you know, that, that brings about these, um, outcomes that we're describing, uh, and that I think is a really You know, that feels like a really valuable way to talk about Reiki within a number of different perspectives because, you know, one of the things that's clear in this conversation is that skepticism can come from any direction, right? It can come from scientific communities, as you said, Brahman, who might, you know, write it off as being, you know, unstudied and, and out there and, you know, not grounded in. In physics and the, you know, the physical world, um, it can come from, uh, people from other religious backgrounds, right? People who have been, you know, who really strongly believe that there is one way to engage with, uh, with, with spirit, with the unseen and, and Reiki is not it. And then, so there can be spiritual or religious skepticism, can be people who feel unattached to both of those things and are just like, that is not for me. I don't understand that, you know. And so on, it can come from many, many, many different perspectives. And so I think again, the more that we can be really clear about our own experiences, um, what has heart and meaning to share about those experiences and what are the outcomes that we've experienced in our life, um, that we can track that, that feel that that is directly connected to our choice to practice the system. Um, you know, those are going to be those points of common conversation with folks, um, that really can open up some really juicy conversation, right? And I think if we hold the perspective, Bronwyn, that you shared earlier, that it's not our job to defend the system of Reiki or convince anybody of anything. Our job is to share our experiences, to explain in as clear a way as we can, you know, what our understanding of the system is. what its effects are in our life and be curious about what, what the other person believes, what they value, what they have found to be beneficial, what they think about these outcomes that we're describing. Um, and to, to enter that conversation with that sense of curiosity and I'm going to talk a little bit about what to expect for the skeptic. Um, these can be the seeds of some of the most valuable conversations. Right? So we really shouldn't be afraid of having these conversations with folks who are skeptical. Um, there's so much richness to come from saying, Hey, we don't believe the same thing right in this moment, or we're not seeing this thing the same way. This is some fertile ground for some really interesting conversation. Yeah. I love all of that. And, um, another prior episode that I think is really helpful that kind of, we can weave into this one is the one where we talk about how to talk about Reiki and that was a really good episode. And I think we really spoke to the heart of, of, of really how you're going to describe Reiki to somebody. Who, you know, we might from the outside perceive them to be skeptical, but they might just truly want to understand Reiki. And so how do we describe this thing that we love so much, we're passionate about, that's changed our life for the better. How do we describe that to somebody in a way that they can really listen? And I think that that's a highly intuitive exercise. Like that's where I'm like, if I was a Reiki master, I have to put my energy into doing that because I'm reading the person, I'm really trying to understand. What they want to hear and or what they want how I can speak to them in a way that they will understand and So that comes down to I think any Reiki practitioner should have a 30 second spiel on Reiki That, that is, uh, skeptic proof that helps you describe Reiki to virtually anybody and also have in your toolkit a few things that might be useful when you're talking to skeptics, such as a Harvard medical study or, um, you know, knowing about the current research on the system of Reiki. Um, sharing one or two of your own experiences with it. Um, I also really like to tether a description of Reiki with just a whole Eastern worldview. Which is different than, um, a Western mind. But To give people that opportunity to respect how the other half of the world lives and understand how, how the world functions. Um, and part of that is to know that we are alive and there's this aliveness in every cell of our being every cell of our body and Reiki. If we want to talk about the physical healing benefits, it's about. tuning in and learning how to listen to our body to give our body what it needs. And so I feel like the people who've been most effective about healing physical ailments with Reiki have done so because they take time every day to step away from the busyness of life and to nourish themselves. to lay down, receive hands on healing, either from themselves or from others. They've changed their lifestyle. They changed how they eat. They change how they sleep. They change, um, uh, perhaps their emotional patterns and mental patterns as well, and that their physical healing is entwined with their mental and emotional body. Um, and I have a client I worked with today. Who has, um, some serious ulcerative colitis and he feels that so much of this is linked with healing his inner child. And so for him, this outward physical healing has also included energy works, ecology, uh, lots of different things, uh, totally changing his diet. And as a result from that, he's seeing some really positive benefits in his life. And, um, and I just love how Reiki can inspire that to give us the strength and that intuition from our body to, to really, um, know what you need to do to heal. And that, that can be really different for everyone. Yeah. That piece is so important, Carrie, this piece about lifestyle and the idea that, you know, I think sometimes where, where we can really, trigger some serious skepticism is if we lead, if we're talking about Reiki as like this miracle cure, right, as like, you do this thing, you do these symbols, you do these hand placements, you do this thing. And then like, and then, then you're good. Right. And, you know, firstly, understanding that Reiki is part of, you know, again, back to mindsets, a lifestyle that includes a wide range of things, and that they're linked, right, and that practicing Reiki brings our attention to these other aspects of our life that might be not in alignment with our, our wellness and our, Our good health and, and emotional stability and so on. And so, you know, having that understanding can be really helpful for folks because people understand that, right. That, that lifestyles have many different components and that working with our mindset and with our spirituality is one of them. And then the piece around having that, you know, 30 second spiel, um, you know, certainly having a, a, a way, a way that feels easeful and clear and accurate for us. To just answer that question of what do you do or what's Reiki, super helpful. Um, and, and I really encourage people to lead that, um, statement with the outcomes that you experience from Reiki. So what is Reiki? Reiki is a system of practice that helps us to live rooted, spacious, and connected, or it helps us to Describe the precepts, you know, um, because that's that that's the grounded aspect of it. If we lead with, oh, it's a system of energy medicine where you're channeling, you know, heavenly light into a person. And, you know, forget into those kinds of mechanics. Um, anybody who's skeptical is gonna, you know, It's gonna red flag for them, right? So lead lead with your, your outcomes, right? What do you experience from being with this lifestyle of the system of Reiki? Um, and then if the, if that is intriguing to the person, if that feels resonant for them, then you can start talking about how do you get there? Um, uh, just one thing on what you were saying before, Carrie, just going into that. And that is just about, uh, what people think, um, I can't remember exactly what you said, but it made me think about something. And that was just when, you know, like, uh, when, when you begin a class and you ask each student. You know, what do you want to get out of this? And I think that's that thing of listening and understanding what, what's going on for that other person. And. When they explain what they want to get out of it, that helps us to, um, give them information that's going to support that process. Uh, so it is very much about listening to the other person, understanding, uh, uh, what other people are expecting or, um, you know, desire and, um, seeing how we can I think the words were, you know, meet, um, meet that person, uh, at a point that we can, um, you know, we can be supportive and basically, you know, I feel like the system of Reiki can, because it is about all those things that we've just been talking about lifestyle, you know, how we live and, you know, It can affect so many different aspects of us and how we live. So we, you know, you, you can find that it can be there for you in, in all sorts of ways. Beautiful. What a juicy conversation. There's there's so much in this topic and so many other branches that perhaps will follow in future conversations. I think it's, it's been really valuable for me to reflect on my own skeptical nature and the ways that that benefits me and the times when it can. you know, close me in around things. This has been personally valuable to reflect on. I have a dear friend who refers to himself as a skeptical mystic, and I think that's a really beautiful way of balancing the sides, right? The mystical side and the skeptical side that when they come together, it's actually very powerful aspect of our personality. And so, folks listening, we'd love to hear from you. What of your Experience has been with skepticism your own or that of other people. Do you have, you found really powerful, useful, valuable strategies for talking with folks who have some skepticism about the system of Reiki. We'd love to hear about that and, uh, perhaps learn from you as well. And as you go throughout your day, we hope that you are well provisioned to share the system of Reiki with whoever comes your way. Thank you so much for joining us, and we will see you talk to you, hear you again. next week. Goodbye.