Reiki within Psychology with Reiki Women Podcast

Join Carrie Varela of the Reiki Healing Society, Bronwen Logan from Reiki with Bronwen and Michaela Daystar from Heartscapes Reiki as they explore the relationship between the practice of Reiki and the field of psychology, acknowledging the importance of ethical boundaries and adequate training in both fields. 

The discussion focuses on the potential benefits of integrating Reiki into therapeutic practices, the challenge of including spiritual dimensions in Western medical models, and the need for clear self-awareness about the limits of each practitioner's skills and knowledge. 

The women discuss the opportunities and challenges that this intersection presents, emphasizing the importance of community, mutual support, and respect for professional guidelines.

00:06 Introduction and Welcome
00:29 Intersections Between Reiki and Psychology
01:53 The Importance of Sharing Experiences
02:11 The Evolution of Reiki and Psychology
05:30 The Role of Reiki in Therapy and Psychology
08:03 The Importance of Training and Qualifications
09:38 The Connection Between Mind and Body
10:36 The Influence of Buddhism on Reiki
16:37 The Integration of Reiki into Medical Models
22:54 The Ethical Boundaries in Reiki Practice
24:15 The Role of Reiki in Supporting Therapists
40:09 The Challenges of Integrating Reiki into Western Medical Practices
43:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Additional Resources:
- Join our Facebook Group: Embodying Reiki
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1564135767437136
- Subscribe to our YouTube channel
 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz6Jk8QD_8hjlfpSM8suMIA

Bronwen Logan: https://ReikiwithBronwen.com
Carrie Varela: https://www.reikihealingsociety.com
Michaela Daystar: https://www.heartscapesinsight.com/

🔔 Don't forget to subscribe, comment, and share to spread the knowledge and connect with the Reiki community.

Transcript

Carrie Varela: 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Reiki Women Podcast. My name is Carrie Ella with the Reiki Healing Society, and today I have the lovely privilege of having a little conversation with some of my besties. You know them. You love them too. So we got Bronwyn Logan from Reiki with Bronwyn. We've got Mikayla Daystar from Hardscapes Reiki. And today we wanted to talk about intersections between, uh, Reiki and psychology. And, um, full disclaimer here, none of us are therapists, uh, or work in the mental health field, have any background in mental health, um, but nevertheless, we kind of Uh, talked to, touched us into this on a previous episode about the potential ways in which Reiki and psychology intersect and thought it might be useful to have, uh, its own conversation, its own discussion about that particular topic. And so that's what we're going to discuss today on the Reiki Women podcast, all about Reiki and how it fits, how it might not fit into Western medical models, including psychology. So I would love to open the conversation with one of you two beauties, Bronwen, who wants to talk about Reiki. I'm happy to jump in. Um, I, I do love this topic. We were just chatting before starting the recording at like many different directions. This can go and the and the challenges involved with having this conversation as people who are firmly in the side of Reiki and have many touch points in the worlds of therapy psychology, but are not practicing professionals in that realm ourselves. And so I want to just start off by inviting you dear listener to share your own experiences. For those of you listening who are embedded in the fields of therapy of psychology of related fields, we would absolutely love to have you chime in and join this conversation. Um, because I think it's a rich one. I feel really, uh, lucky and excited that we are practicing Reiki in a time when there's been really great strides made in softening the hard edge between these two worlds. I would say when I first started practicing Reiki and even like going before that, when I first started becoming interested in, you know, kind of wellness and, you know, self reflection as, um, a means of, uh, doing work in the world. Um, at the time I was kind of running that up against higher education and kind of social justice work and really feeling the hard edge between those two realms, um, that there was kind of this world of like doing the work out in the world and doing the research. And then there was this world of like, the internal spaces and, um, you know, wellness and self reflection and creativity. And that there was this kind of, the twain rarely meet, um, when I first kind of started this interest. And just in the 20 years or so that this has been something I've been paying attention to, there's been so much softening of that line, so much more understanding. Um, you know, if we look at the realm of. of therapeutic models and practices, so much better understanding of the connection between our body, our mind, our emotional life, our spirit, and the, um, intersections of those things, the way they, they, um, interact with each other inside of our lives. Certainly the increased ability for us to kind of have more detailed brain scans and understand how trauma affects the brain and how embodiment based practices and meditation practices, um, can, you know, really are kind of the magic. uh, element for healing trauma and, and kind of reintegrating parts of our brain chemistry, part of our mind that get disintegrated when we experience trauma. And then over into the realm of, you know, even just looking at, um, you know, high stress jobs, um, you know, realms where people's You know, mind and stamina and resilience really take a beating because of the work that they do a greater understanding of the need for, you know, just something as simple as work life balance and self care and, you know, thinking about that as integrated into our life, as opposed to something that we do only occasionally when we take a break from our life. And so I think all of those strides in You know, in a sense, really taking a whole person look at our lives, our work lives, um, our, uh, relationships and seeing that the, the different elements of our life as being, I mean, it seems so obvious when you think about it, but, you know, integrated in, in our whole self, we see this, um, We see greater opportunities for we as Reiki practitioners to directly work alongside and perhaps even inside of the realms of therapy of psychology and related fields. So I wanted to just kind of start with that context that like it's a really juicy time to be, you know, in this conversation to be a person who's interested in both sides of those things because there's more openness, there's more. uh, appreciation and understanding of the value of bringing those things together, you know, including bringing those things into, um, physical medical spaces. You know, the, the idea of having, uh, you know, Reiki or other similar processes available in hospitals has become, if not normalized, at least much more common. Um, something that is not completely out of the ordinary as it was when I first started practicing. So we have this landscape that is opening up that, you know, really welcomes these conversations. So what does it mean to be a Reiki practitioner who's also a therapist or a client who wants to take both of those routes in their healing journey and have those practitioners be at least aware of each other, if not collaborating with each other? Um, I have a Reiki student who was invited to work inside of a clinic of therapists and to, You know, sit in on their client meetings and like have conversations with them about their shared clients and kind of be on the inside of that, um, you know, kind of bubble of confidentiality that is created around a therapeutic client. So, you know, these are, these are really juicy, interesting times and it opens up interesting challenges. And interesting, um, you know, opportunities and things that kind of need to get worked through as we, as we open up these spaces. So, uh, I think that's just kind of where I wanted to start was, was a little bit of the landscape that we're stepping into with this conversation. What comes up for you, Bronwen? Uh, I dropped my pen. So, I can't live without that. Hang on a second, guys. You are a diligent note taker. I know this about you, Bronwen. Uh, I love how you track our conversations with notes, whereas I'm just kind of like following in my brain. Uh, so I'm glad you found your pen. Well, otherwise I'd be saying the whole time, uh, what was it that I thought? Because, you know, it's sort of gone in one ear and out the other out. So anyway, yes, that was really interesting. Actually, the last thing that you just said, I thought was quite interesting about the bubble, because that bubble is something that we don't teach in the system of Reiki. We might touch on it, right? But we don't teach that, which means that we're not actually qualified. I know you've been saying that, but we, we, We haven't gone through the rigorous training that is required to create this bubble for the client. It's a different type of practice, yeah, in that sense. And, um, we don't put a cross that we do create that. I mean, yes, of course, there is, uh, confidentiality and we should be looking after our note taking and, you know, keeping it in secure places. And, and. you know, there's basic, um, there's basic rules, but that goes much deeper. And that is something that someone who is a qualified therapist will actually have spent, um, you know, months and months, um, studying and, and, and working with. So I think that is a, that's something good to, to understand because I, I, you know, there is that concern for me that a Reiki practitioner might think, Oh, we can do that. You know, and so in a class, I will always say, you know, we're not even counsellors, right? If you want to, um, actually open your mouth and, and say something that might be anything in the line of counselling, you need to do at least a basic counselling course before Uh, Before saying anything to any client. Yeah, because that's not what we do. However, we do have the beautiful aspect of things like the Reiki precepts, which are a very mental aspect and psychology is. about mental behavior. Yeah, it's the scientific study of, of what is going on in our minds. And as you said, Michaela, these things are not, um, as far as we are concerned within the system of Reiki, we do not see these things as separate. So we don't see the mind as a separate being to other aspects of ourselves where possibly some therapists might, but of course there's somatic therapy, which is a more. you know, uh, physical type of therapy. So there are different types of therapies, which will obviously also include other things. And, uh, but the very basic foundation of what I understand that, that psychology is, is that it is the science of the mind and what we do with that to our behaviors. Um, which if I think about that, oh, there's a few different things that I sort of thought about. in on this subject. Um, one is that if I think of, um, Buddhism and Buddhist practices, Buddhism is an incredibly intellectual, on the one hand, it is an incredibly intellectual practice. And, um, I'm not a Buddhist. Uh, uh, but I read a lot of Buddhist stuff and it always amazes me how incredibly technical they are about the mind. And, uh, I see a lot of parallels between, um, psychology and Buddhism, not necessarily in what they're saying, but in taking that route to really, you know, intricately pulling apart, um, how we think and why we do things. And I think that's, uh, it seems to be a natural human curiosity to, to want to know that. about ourselves. So we, you know, I think, um, within the system of Reiki, because it is from Japan and there is that Buddhist underpinning to the practice. Um, I can see that there is this sort of like crossover, um, possibly between, uh, Buddhist thought and, um, what we're talking about today. And that is, you know, discovering what on earth is going on up here and, and how does that work? Which brings me to the other thought that, that we were sort of talking about, that the mind is not, um, separate, that we have, you know, we work beautifully within the system of Reiki with this idea of Sanmitsu being, um, body, mind and energy or breath. So these three aspects and that these three aspects together create us as a whole being and that we can't have one of those aspects separate because even if we tried it would be, I mean, if, if I was just a physical body and nothing else, I would just be a physical body, which means there would be, um, I'd probably be dead, just sort of decomposing somewhere on the side, right? So, I mean, every aspect of us works with the other aspects. And, um, you know, the breath is the instigator inside this body, but where is the breath if there's no body? You know, and then we have the mind. The mind is, is telling us what to do and how to do things. And, um, but it needs something to tell. So we can't have these things as, uh, separate elements. And I think anyway, within, within, uh, the Japanese Buddhist understanding that, Oh, Japanese. Yeah. Buddhist, understanding that Sam Mitsu is, um, is a way of wholeness and a way of being. So we, we care for, for all of these aspects, but we, when we are looking at, um, something like psychology, yes, pulling apart the, the mind means that it will actually affect other aspects of us. I was just talking to, um, in my coaching group the other day, a student was saying, uh, that, um. that It was just telling me about the fact that someone she knew had been sick and had a heart attack through, through worry. And it actually has like a technical, um, name that the doctors give it. And, uh, uh, because they've actually acknowledged that it is, uh, you know, the worries that we have going on in our mind are things that actually do affect our body, especially our heart. And it can, when we worry. Or when we have anger, when we have extreme emotions in our mind that, um, and I'm not talking about joyful emotions. I'm talking about emotions that we consider harmful and that our arteries restrict. And when our arteries restrict, then our heart is having obviously trouble in working and we can have a heart attack. So, uh, you know, there's a lot of research going into, into this. Uh, and I find that really quite fascinating. And if we look at the system of Reiki, I just talked about, you know, we have the Reiki precepts, which are a mental, thought process and how, you know, how we think and do our behaviors. So it's giving us guidelines for that. But then there's also our practices and, uh, you know, Joshin Kokuho, I think I just mentioned that recently, but within the word Joshin, you know, it's purification of the heart and mind and, uh, this, this linking of the heart and the mind that these two things work together. And, um, if we can. When we, when we practice, what we're doing is working at purifying these, clearing these so that we can have a more freer, um, a healthier body, a better wellbeing, live longer, you know, all the things that we really want to be able to do in our life, enjoy our lives. So I see that the system of Reiki is very much a mental practice, but it's not alone in being just a mental practice. And so. linking it into psychology, uh, it would depend upon what a therapist, uh, would be practicing, I guess. And, uh, just before we started, Carrie was saying, you know, therapists will often do a wide variety of different things. So, um, you know, it would depend upon what they're actually doing, but they do have. I'm, I'm, as I said at the beginning, they do have some training in certain ways that we certainly don't. And that, I guess, would be probably for me the largest distinction. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's just so many different flavors of this, right? Um, so, uh, so I'd like to touch back into some of those. So, first of all, I really believe that, um, you know, I'd love to see in my lifetime that Reiki kind of break through traditional medical models and so that it can be incorporated, um, you know, Thoughtfully, ethically into medical models in a way that pays practitioners well for our time, allows insurance reimbursement, just like acupuncture has done in certain, in certain capacities, um, and other, you know, complementary and alternative medicine. That's kind of a data terms called integrative medicine. Um, And so at some point in my life, I studied medical billing and, uh, that was kind of all with a goal to, you know, look how yoga and Reiki could be, you know, brought into traditional medical models, how, um, you know, nurses potentially could apply Reiki for their patients and, um, that could, you know, be an additional service that they offer and then, um, You know, uh, you know, another thing to bill within insurance companies, but also, you know, bringing and, uh, offering accessibility and affordability, uh, of reiki and yoga as well, um, to patients. And, um, like for example, like in yoga, there's studies out there that say yoga's just as effective as physical therapy. Um, but you know, in order to get that effectiveness. You kind of need to work one to one with a teacher and be working more specifically oriented around a certain person's, um, you know, injuries. So, um, so I definitely really believe that there, it's possible. And so there's kind of a couple of different ways to think about that is, first of all, how do therapists integrate Reiki into their practice and how could they do that? Um, and so there's all different types of therapists. There's some very Wu therapists out there and Um, I know you, uh, if you're a WU therapist, I love you because you see all these different layers of who we are, right, and, um, and, uh, you are, you are interested in learning about, uh, holistic practices, uh, how people heal that really provide dramatic results for people. Um, and I think Reiki really fits that bill. You know, so many people I know, my students and my clients who've experienced it. Experience Reiki. They're just like, this has been so amazing. I recall one of my clients once, she was like, this was like 14 years of therapy, I just did 14 years of therapy in the session and I just released so much and it, and there was, um, you know, it was just so profound for her, right? So, uh, life changing even. Um. And, um, and so I think, you know, there's a lot of different ways we can look about how you could bring that, you know, bring Reiki into traditional psychological models and even medical models. Um, and I also, like, there's a different, like, geeky nuance here. So. You know, for the most part within this podcast, we talk about, uh, the system of Reiki as it's taught by Yasui Sensei and some of his direct students. And so, um, you know, really looking at Reiki from that lens and also the prehistory of Reiki, the Reiki before it was Reiki and the elements of the Japanese culture and spirituality that influenced the founder of Reiki and thereby, you know, influenced our practice of Reiki. And then there's Hayashi, you know, Hayashi, he's kind of an interesting dude. So I studied Jikken Enriki, and Jikken Enriki is very much focused on physical healing. And, uh, so, and that's in some part because of Hayashi sensei. He's one of the direct students of, of Yasui, and he had a medical background, and he really, um, brought this whole notion of physical healing. So, um, You know, and there doesn't need to be any debate about that or anything, but just to know that there is that physical healing component, some people feel more aligned towards that. Some people feel more aligned towards this more mental and emotional work, uh, spiritual work that Reiki can provide. And I think that's all important. So, you know, one of, some of the ways that we can bring Reiki to psychology, uh, is first of all is training therapists. Uh, you know, people who are counselors, who are interested in learning a new system, uh, something that would be supportive for their, um, their clients. Uh, you know, and so I think one of the things that I, like I said, I'm not a therapist, but probably one of the things that is limiting to that is providing hands on healing. So actually physically touching your client, um, may or may not be a challenge for your, you know, Standards to practice and codes of ethics and such and so forth. Um, so, you know, that's what's wonderful is to bring, you know, Reiki through a more meditative lens, um, through different practices, um, and sharing potentially Reiki with, with, uh, clients, you know, people who have trained in psychology and who want to bring Reiki into their practice. Uh, you know, there's lots with Reiki. It's methods with which to do so. Um, but also to the point of what Bronwen has said and what Michaela said is that as people who have trained in Reiki who don't have a background in psychology, we really don't, um, you know, have the skills and qualifications to work with people on a, um, a counseling level. Yet, you know, in the practice of Reiki, I know for myself, a lot of times my clients, they have problems, they want to talk about their problems, they're looking for some help, and, um, so I always feel like what's appropriate for me to share is wisdom and insight from the practice of Reiki that might be supportive for them. So really framing it that way, I'm not a therapist, but, you know, this is you know, something about Reiki that might be fruitful for you. You could work with the precepts, you can work with, um, you know, Joshin Kokyoho, like you talked about, some other elements that seem to be in alignment with whatever it is that we're working through. Um, that being said, I see a lot within Western forms of Reiki about offering spiritual guidance. to your clients and I feel like there's an ethical boundary there that is important to note that you know, doing a Reiki training, I don't think gives you the qualifications to provide spiritual guidance. Um, and to tell people, you know. Do this, not that. Um, that I think to me, um, you know, requires additional training. And, um, and I know, like, I have a friend, uh, who lives, uh, in my neighborhood, who's a, um, she's a medical medium. I mean, she, She is psychic for all intents and purposes, and can do amazing things, has amazing insight, but she has a background in psychology, and it's really from that that she can offer the guidance and the support that she offers, and so, um, if, you know, providing spiritual guidance is part of your practice, I definitely think it's really important to study some sort of You know, counseling, you know, get additional training so that you can really work with, um, some of the power dynamics that can come into place there. Um, uh, you know, there's a lot of touchy subjects within that, uh, that realm. Um, so, and then I think another level of this, but nevertheless, I think Reiki practitioners are great supports for counselors. So, counselors are taking in so much of people's pain and, uh, you know, hard things that they've gone through in their life, and that has to have an emotional impact on us. And so, finding something that helps therapists work through their own emotions, create stronger energetic boundaries, be able to kind of wash away some of the stuff that's, you know, that they nevertheless sit in with their clients, but. Isn't there's really to hold. Um, and I can only imagine I'm a very empathic person. I would have a hard time with that You know if I was a counselor and was really listening So I think you know that counselors can really receive a lot of support from practices of Reiki and so there might be just a healthy revolving door between Reiki practitioners and Psychologists and I've already seen it. I'd love to see more of it, you know Reiki practitioners going into a counselor's office offering Reiki as just a supportive service for counselors who are, you know, dealing with a lot and have a high stress job, um, and, you know, uh, however it is feels aligned for psychologists also to bring this medicine of Reiki to their patients. Um, yeah, I'd love to see it, you know, blossom and, um, more growth happen in this area for sure. This is really such a important place to apply the principle of being both firm and flexible, right? Because I think that, you know, a lot of those hard boundaries that, you know, I talked about earlier, um, you know, they, they develop for a lot of reasons, some of which are financial and, um. You know, structural, you know, let's fit everything into a mechanized structure where you've got everything siloed. And, you know, there's that side of things, but there are also, you know, good reasons, especially in the realms we're talking about now to have some boundaries between what people are. you know, allowed to do when it comes to vulnerable populations. At the same time, if we have no flexibility in that, then we lose access to incredible resources, as you're speaking to, Kerry. And so, you know, this idea that, um, You know, and I've seen like in the, in the big boom in the fields of coaching and counseling as alternatives, or as a, as a slightly different wheelhouse from therapy and psychology, where, you know, a person can get training that allows one to have structures to walk a person through, um, you know, mindset coaching, right. And, and ways of, um, you know, fine tuning their thoughts and feelings, and therefore their behaviors around stuff that they're struggling with that isn't formal therapy and therefore has, um, you know, more flexibility in how it can be, uh, offered. I have colleagues who have created. coaching programs to teach you that that's a combination of a coaching program, right? Here's systems and structures and strategies and methods that have been proven to be effective in working with people around their mindsets and their feelings and their behaviors. And here's Reiki and let's bring that together. Um, and so, you know, this, this flexibility that's coming in. Alongside of respecting structures and respecting that there are reasons for there to be certain boundaries around certain practices, I think is really exciting, um, a person who is a really, um, powerful and, and valuable teacher to look to on this is David Treleaven. Um, he is a therapist and also a mindfulness meditation coach and. practitioner. And so he, uh, he was one of the people that I studied, um, when putting together my trauma informed Reiki class, uh, because he's done a lot of work in trauma informed mindfulness meditation. And one of the things that he really brings to the forefront is that. You know, looking from the perspective of a therapist at the way that mindfulness meditation is often taught in a Western context where it's been divorced from its Buddhist origins and from, you know, the structures that would normally contain the practice of mindfulness meditation, you know, we in the West have taken mindfulness meditation out of those structures, put it as a standalone practice. We've kind of secularized it, taken the, the spiritual teachings out of it, ignored the fact that mindfulness meditation is a peak practice. It's not an entry level practice. It's something you work yourself up to. And so what Treleven noticed is that, um, there was, you know, a certain percentage of people In the practice of mindfulness and mindfulness meditation that would experience, um, you know, forms of psychosis that would form that would experience the triggering of deep traumas that would experience, you know, great distress, mental, emotional distress when in the practice of mindfulness meditation and that those, those mindfulness, meditation teachers were not equipped to understand what was happening for those clients and to coach them through it. And so they would end up in therapy because they're having psychosis experiences and trauma triggering and all of these things in a practice that is supposed to calm their stress, that is supposed to You know, have them feeling more relaxed in their life. And so it's, you know, reading his work and studying, um, his practices, you know, and really respecting that he's, he's not saying so therefore we should not teach people mindfulness meditation or mindfulness meditation should only be done by therapists. He's saying those who are going to lead people in these practices. Would be well informed to have some basis for what's happening in the psychology of a person's mind who's experienced trauma and to recognize the signs of somebody who is experiencing distress or psychosis or triggering, um, and better yet to have structures and systems and protocols in place that everybody experiences who comes into that practice. that helps to mitigate those experiences. And so that's where trauma informed mindfulness meditation and trauma informed yoga practice were born, right, is like, let's put a little bit of structure around these experiences. You know, spiritual practices, mental emotional practices that, let's be honest, in a Western context are often distributed and practiced in a fairly loosey goosey sort of way, right? You can, um, You know, pick it up and teach it and pass it along to other people quite readily, um, with very little standardization in what a person is required to know and to be trained to do. Um, yoga has much more structure around it, and I think that that's because it's a physical practice, right? There's more of an understanding going in that, oh, people can get hurt doing this practice, right? People can, you know, strain a muscle and throw their back out and, you know. Get their knees messed up, right? Doing yoga in a way that's not skillfully taught. And so, you know, pretty early on, yoga developed structures around it so that there's standardized ways in which it's taught. And then trauma informed yoga coming in more recently to add this layer in of like, Hey, there's vulnerability in this practice. There's intimacy in this practice. There's the way in which the things stored in our body can get stirred up and generate mental, emotional experiences that are unanticipated in a yoga class. And the yoga teacher who maybe is just there to help people have an exercise experience or have a good stretch or, you know, whatever it is, um, needs to be equipped to. Account for those things. And so, you know, we've got a lot of good models for bringing together the structures. That are associated with things like yoga, things like coaching and counseling, um, and even therapy and bringing that alongside our Reiki practice so that we have a little bit more structure. And then, you know, the thing that both of you have named, we as Reiki practitioners and those who teach us and kind of hold us accountable, just being super clear about what our, our, Our qualifications are and are not in the realm of therapizing a person right in the spaces that we create and, you know, again, that line can get really flexible. It can get really blurry, right? A person is, you know, often, often, you know, a Reiki client will come in and disclose all kinds of personal information, right? Like right off the bat, like I have just met you. We have not You know, like had a working relationship. You've never had a Reiki session before, but, you know, there's something about the space. And oftentimes, you know, people are like coming because they're like, I really need help. They're going to just, they're often going to disclose quite a bit of personal information and how we hold and receive that personal information. What we do with it, to what degree we, we believe that we're entitled to then take that information and create. you know, some form of dialogue with them or, you know, therapeutic practices with them, um, is a, is a ethical concern. And it's something that You know, as both of you have said, we would do well to acknowledge if that's something we desire to do with people, right? If we feel we maybe have a capacity or inclination, or it's just like, this is what people seem to want. So I want to be able to meet them in that, that we seek out some form of training that has to do with that side of things. beyond our Reiki training. And again, you know, we live in a really juicy time. There are many, many ways that we can get that augmented level of support as practitioners. And the last thing I'll say about that is that this is a realm where having systems of support, amongst each other is incredibly important. You hinted on this, Carrie, with even like Reiki practitioners supporting therapists in their circle of support for doing their work. Um, we should not be doing this kind of work in isolation. Um, and the internet gives us. Ample opportunity to be in community with each other, to build spaces of support and accountability and troubleshooting, um, where we can, you know, put in structures of confidentiality and, and, you know, respect and, and all of that, that is important when we're working with clients. Private information, personal information, um, and you know, our own need to be in a space of groundedness and wellness in that. Um, and you know, we're not saying any of this to be like. Yeah, I hope that this is coming across as as focusing on potential and possibility and opportunity, um, not just on like, be warned, be, be afraid, you know, like, that's not what we're up to here. Um, and we do want to emphasize. Um, the importance of really acknowledging where our capacities are and where we could use, um, additional support in that, especially if we want to step into anything that looks like counseling or therapy, um, and if we do have that desire, it's a juicy, juicy place to be. It truly is. Well, where to go with all of that? I mean, I, I, you know, I thought that was a really interesting discussion, Michaela. Um, and yes, you know, we do all need support. I've had years and years of therapy. That's, um, some support, but it's great. You know, it's, it's this learning about yourself, learning about. You know, yourself from a mental perspective and, you know, that informs everything else as well. So, uh, that's really helpful. I noticed that, um, uh, a lot of people who come for Reiki treatments or courses actually come because they're referred. by other people, not necessarily Reiki practitioners, but, you know, from counsellors or, you know, just places where they've gone to for help. And, and those people have, have, have used, I like the word therapy. Is that a real word? Therapize? Therapy? Whatever you were saying. Yeah. But anyway, so that should be. And, um, so people, you know, who have gone through those sorts of processes and someone has said to them, you know. Moving into a different sort of space with, with what you're going through can be helpful. Something like the system of Reiki, where we have practices like meditation practices, which are very much about going inside. So it's a much, it's different from going outside and, and, and trying to get help from someone. This is about going inside and trying to develop your strength inside and, and finding help within. So it's a different. form and, and something that's incredibly powerful and important in our lives. Um, and then, you know, the other aspects, as we've sort of already mentioned, there's, you know, the precepts and, and hands on healing, being touched by someone and, and the, you know, how. impactful that can be in a, in a safe environment and letting go into that healing space with somebody else. So the system of Reiki certainly has, I feel a lot to offer people. Um, yes, it's not psychology, but it certainly links in, in some aspects. And, and definitely, like I was just saying, people who are therapists. will refer through to us. Um, something that I did notice recently was, uh, someone was telling me about, they did a course about, um, getting the system of Reiki into hospitals, which is a wonderful, you know, thing, because it's, it's a bit of a, it's, it's a different take on, on, on how we think of our wellbeing instead of it being so, uh, medicalised. But it seemed to me that what was happening in this particular instance, that Reiki was being medicalised. And. I'm not sure I totally agreed with a lot of the things that was being said about the system of Reiki to try to sell it to, um, hospitals, right? So, you know, there was this sort of thing about, oh no, when I do a Reiki treatment, um, you know, the only effect is a positive one and the person always feels good afterwards. I mean, setting, yes, it's good to set your client up for a healthy experience and, and something that, you know, is going to be beneficial, but to prescribe to someone what they're going to feel and how they're going to feel it. I don't, to me, that is restrictive and isn't really what, at any point, my way of working with the system of Reiki. So, you know, I think that's something to think about too. How do we. How do we move into these worlds and be a part of these worlds? Because sometimes, um, we feel pressured to, to, to say or do things that might not actually be in line with, um, the actual teachings. And, you know, we're not a medical system. I also found all of that quite interesting. I kind of lost my whole train of thought of what I was going to say. I lost my pen again. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all just really important food for thought, you know, um, oh, whoa, this is what I was going to say that I think might be helpful thing to end on unless we have some other thoughts. Um, but, uh, you know, I have a, uh, associate, a friend who, um, is a therapist and then, uh, but has kind of. Belt dealt, um, or she has kind of gone her own way, like maybe a little bit outside of some of the traditional therapy roles. And she really felt like, uh, Reiki and hypnosis and some other aspects of healing was really profound for her own healing, um, because it went beyond this talk therapy. So, you know, thought talk therapy is working more with our conscious mind. And so working with Reiki. has a potential to get down into our subconscious mind, um, and our unconscious mind. So kind of reworking patterns, uh, trauma from a subconscious place as well. Um, and also from a spiritual place. You know, I think that's the other aspects we haven't really woven in is that, you know, there's a spiritual aspect of Reiki that, um, you know, again, in Western models of, of health often is, You know, excluded right from from that, but maybe not always and not always intentionally, but some people, you know, it just not within the context. Right? So, um, that that is a place where it is hard to bring Reiki into or to fit and conform Reiki into a practice that makes sense to a Western. Medical practice. Um, but nevertheless, you know, just this, this, the whole notion is just a really helpful conversation to have, right? It was like, how does Reiki help us understanding that? How could we, um, you know, use the practice of Reiki to support our own mental health and also, um, you know, work with clients in the context of, uh, Reiki and psychology. If you have a psychology background, um, I also think, you know, some of the meditations and just taking those mindfulness moments, you know, before, uh, a therapy session begins is so important. You know, I've done a lot of therapy myself. And sometimes if you just kind of come in and just, it's like this verbal, like, blah, you know, and maybe that's what needs to happen. Um, but sometimes that also just perpetuating an anxious. So helping, um, clients kind of settle into their bodies, settle into their breath, and then kind of engaging with a conscious dialogue from that place. So there's probably, probably many places of intersection and points where, you know. It's, it's challenging to bring two things together and I think that that is just the way of Reiki if we integrate Reiki into different modalities, different, um, uh, healing modalities, um, uh, different systems. So, I know that that has been something that I've really, you know, had to juggle being a Reiki practitioner and a yoga teacher. Um, and so, we hope this conversation was useful to you, those of you who are listening. Uh, Michaela, Bronwen, any final thoughts? Nope. Nope. This feels really complete. Thank you. Wonderful. Well, I know within the Reiki Healing Society community, there's a lot of, uh, people who are therapists who are really interested in learning how they can bring Reiki more into their practices. Um, and so if you're that person, uh, feel free to connect with me and feel free of course also to share your experiences with us and, um, forward on this conversation to somebody who you might think. Could, um, benefit from it. And thank you all so, so much for listening and we can't wait to have another little conversation with you, um, coming soon. So have a great day. Bye bye.