Japanese Incarceration Day of Remembrance with Reiki Women Podcast

In this Reiki Women Podcast episode, Bronwen Logan, Carrie Varela, and Michaela Daystar discuss the Japanese origins and cultural significance of the system of Reiki. 

The discussion centers on the cultural appropriation within the Reiki system due to Western adaptation and the historical context of Japanese incarceration during World War II. 

They highlight the impact of these events on the evolution of the system of Reiki and stress how understanding the historical and cultural roots of Reiki can strengthen the practice and enhance the transformative healing experiences. 

They also discuss their personal experiences and the responsibility they see to honor and acknowledge the system's origins in their practice.

00:09 Introduction and Welcome
00:34 Discussing the Topic: Japanese Incarceration During World War II
01:33 Historical Context and Impact on Reiki
05:40 Understanding the Influence of History on Reiki Practice
10:18 Personal Reflections and Experiences
11:07 Addressing Cultural Appropriation in Reiki
18:35 The Importance of Acknowledging Reiki's Japanese Roots
22:36 The Role of Reiki in Healing and Relationship Building
26:25 The Need for Greater Recognition of Reiki's Japanese Origins
54:33 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Additional Resources:
- Join our Facebook Group: Embodying Reiki
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1564135767437136
- Subscribe to our YouTube channel
 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz6Jk8QD_8hjlfpSM8suMIA

- Waka Wisdom: 21 Days of Imperial Reiki Meditations: 
https://reikiwithbronwen.com/courses/waka-wisdom-21-days-of-imperial-reiki-meditations/
- National Japanese Historical Society:
https://www.njahs.org/
https://densho.org/

Bronwen Logan: https://ReikiwithBronwen.com
Carrie Varela: https://www.reikihealingsociety.com
Michaela Daystar: https://www.heartscapesinsight.com/

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Transcript

0:06

Hello and welcome to, oh, yes, that was take 10. No, it wasn't. Um, hello and welcome to Reiki Women Podcasts. And, uh, it's Bronwyn Logan here. That's me. And I'm from Reiki with Bronwyn and with me, as always, I have the lovely Carrie Varela. Hi Carrie! From the Reiki Healing Society and Michaela Daystar from Heartscapes Reiki. Hi Michaela. And, uh, today we're going to talk about something that, uh, I think that, uh, possibly Americans consider to be uniquely American. Although, uh, I live in Australia, we have our own history of this same thing, uh, just on a bit of a different scale possibly, but it's about, uh, the Japanese incarceration, uh, during World War II. And, uh, Yesterday, I think it was in America. It was the day of remembrance for that. So we thought, because we often talk about, uh, cultural appropriation and actually the influence of, um, the Japanese aspects of the system into the system of Reiki, uh, you know, we, we talk about this. We can see where, for example, um, a lot of the Japanese aspects were taken out. And I think we, from today's discussion, we'll probably be able to work out why that might be so. So, uh, I'm going to hand you over to our history buff, uh, that is Michaela Daystar. She's going to give us a bit of a rundown on it all. And, uh, and then we're going to have a little bit of a chat together about what it means to us and our practice. Welcome, Michaela. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm so glad we get to have this conversation. Um, so yeah, as, as of recording this today in America is, um, February 19th, which is the Day of Remembrance for the Japanese Incarceration during World War II, as Bronwyn said. And, um, you know, it's, it's the sort of thing that, you know, oftentimes history can feel very, very far away. And we can fail to recognize the ways that significant moments in history are still impacting our lives to this day. Really, World War II was only two generations away. My grandfather was a naval officer in World War II, so I definitely grew up with the influence of that time in my life. And as I step into the world of Reiki more and more deeply, I can really feel that influence here inside of our community of Reiki. So, uh, I wanted to just start by sharing a little bit of history, giving the context of this day, why we are marking this day, and what that means for those of us in the Reiki community, particularly those of us who are white identified, who are American, or who are otherwise connected to this history. So our story begins in December of 1941, when the Japanese military bombed the military base in Pearl Harbor in the occupied territory of Hawaii, uh, the U. S. base there. And that event, you know, as many people know, really, um, ushered in the United States to join the war. It was what was kind of the final straw that, that caused us to, to jump into this conflict and ultimately really changed the tide of that war altogether. A couple of months later in February, February 19th of 1942, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066. And this order was deemed a military necessity, quote unquote, and uh, to basically round up and incarcerate anybody who quote, looks like the enemy. That included, of course, um, Um, military combatants, uh, you know, people who were, uh, you know, actually involved in, um, in the military Japanese nationals who were captured, but, um, significantly, it also included up to and over 120, 000 U. S. citizens of Japanese descent, over two thirds of which were people who were born and raised right here, had served in the U. S. military. You know, little to no direct connection to Japan considered themselves born and raised Americans. And, you know, of course, not only were subjugated to their civil rights being taken away to being literally thrown into concentration camps, their property seized and redistributed, but also the, um, the the psychological blow of essentially having their citizenship stripped from them simply because of their heritage. This was a significant human rights violation that a couple of decades after the war ended, we began to acknowledge as a nation and ultimately that led to marking this day as the Day of Remembrance. It also led to reparations bills that Reimbursed a tiny percentage of the, um, wealth and property and land that was seized from the families that were impacted. There's also the generational trauma of experiencing that, again, just two generations ago, that stays with, um, people of Japanese descent in our country. Um, and that flares up in, you know, for example, during, um, the, the pandemic year, there was a lot of anti Asian violence. And, um, those families were resubjected. So it's something that definitely is still in the air. So the question then becomes, what does this have to do with the system of Reiki? It has a lot to do with the system of Reiki because as it turns out, it was exactly at this time that Hawaii Otakata had brought the system of Reiki into Hawaii. Again, an occupied territory at the time would become a state about a decade later. And just prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, maybe a couple of years at the most, um, Dakota was, um, beginning to teach was setting up a community of practitioners in Hawaii. She was a Japanese descended Hawaiian woman and, um. You know, we all know, uh, bits and pieces, at least, of, of the story of Takada, uh, becoming ill and going to Japan to seek medical treatment, meeting Chichiro Hayashi, being treated at his, uh, Reiki clinics in Japan, having, you know, what she decided was a miraculous healing and taking Reiki on as her life's passion from then on. Um, so right around this time that World War Two was brewing up, that Japan and the United States were squaring off with each other as enemies. Uh, this practice that we love so dearly, that's so connected to, um, our life and to the lives of many of you listening, uh, was taking root in the Western world, at least in the gateway to the Western world. Um, and was significantly impacted by these events. Um, On a very personal level, uh, Chichiro Hayashi was a naval officer in the Japanese military. Um, he was pressured to spy on, uh, on the communities in Hawaii because he had this access. He was traveling here to help support Takata and her community. And, um, you know, he was expected to, to use that access as a way of, um, gaining military information. And he refused to do that. Um, and ultimately he ended up taking his own life. Because as a military doctor, he had very few options at that time, um, conform or face the consequences. And so there's this, you know, these layers of history, but also these layers of trauma that come in when we look at a sacrifice like that. And we look at this paradox of this, you Death and trauma and violence and, you know, the, the taking away of civil rights at that time, um, happening all at the same time. And as Bronwyn alluded, that led to some choices that Dakota and her community had to make. Because I would imagine it was a little dicey teaching a Japanese healing art as a Japanese descended woman during this time. Hawaii was insulated from the incarceration because You know, and as, as one, uh, governor, government official said, we'd have to incarcerate the whole state. Like, you know, the whole, we'd have to put everyone in jail because there were so many people of Japanese descent and, and of, of Asian descent. So there were no, um, incarcerations in Hawaii. So there was a little bit of a buffer, um, of safety there, but still quite a bit of pressure to make Reiki accessible. Accessible and palatable to a US audience and that led to quite a bit of, of removal of, of kind of sanitizing the system of cloaking the aspects of it that were, um, very blatantly. I mean, the system of course is built on a foundation of Japanese spiritual practice primarily Japanese Buddhism and Shinto. And so you have this. Um, You know, you have this practice that significant aspects of, of what it is and why it is could not be spoken about. Um, and that has led to some very interesting, um, events, including the fact that we still have Reiki, right? Like the tenacity and the creativity and the courage to, persist under those circumstances means that we have the opportunity to have Reiki in our lives. And at this point in history, we have the responsibility to understand, um, kind of what happened and to, you know, do our part to unravel a bit of that harm. And for me, that always begins with, um, knowledge and education and knowing exactly what it is that we're practicing. Um, and so that is where I'm going to pause. That was quite a bit of context. Um, and hopefully kind of sets the scene, uh, for the conversation. Um, because where I'd love to go next is, you know, how do we feel about all of that? Right? Like, how has any of that impacted the three of us? Um, how do we, you know, navigate that in our own practice and, and what might we recommend to others? Um, To engage with this as well. And so I am going to open that question up to my colleagues, and I'd love to hear what you have to say. Uh, well, Michaela, thank you so much for that detailed context and history. And I think, um. You know, as path, you know, as people on the path of Reiki probably are familiar with some of that history, but you know, that additional depth of context, I think it's just so important to remember. And, um, you know, in cultural and spiritual appropriation, one of, one of the antidotes of cultural and spiritual appropriation is, is appreciation. Is um, acknowledging our history and taking time to really remember the story and put, um, you know, merit into the story and to, like you were talking about, um, Hayashi sensei and Takada sensei, they're, they're really, um, their struggle, you know, is, is kind of embedded in the history of Reiki and, um, you A struggle that, you know, ultimately led to Hayashi sensei's death and, um, to perhaps a lifelong struggle for Takata sensei with, um, you know, running up against systemic racism, societal racism, and oppression that was prevalent for her in her lifetime and is prevalent for, um, you know, Japanese descended Americans. You know, really anybody who is, uh, has an ethnicity outside of the cultural narrative. And um, so I love that we're taking a pause and, and really sitting with this day of remembrance today and speaking to it on this podcast, because I think it is part of that antidote for cultural appropriation. Um, and, um, You know, one of the reasons why this matters to me, I, you know, and I think it matters, well, first of all, to say, to put the context is like, you know, I'm a white American woman and it could be easy and it probably is easy for me not to see. Like me not to see the racism that runs through different facets of our society and, um, and turn a blind eye to it, you know, and not be able to understand. But I think because I'm, uh, feel aligned around the idea of being a healer, I feel aligned around, um, My empathic nature and my inherent desire to try to see the humanity in any person that I come into contact with, especially those from other cultures. But I just think I, when I went to Japan, I was really struck with, you know, this is the place where this is the ancestral homeland of, of, uh, Japanese American people. Of course, in our society, there's plenty of, um, Japanese Americans who live in. Colorado, California is the main places where I've lived, but you know, elsewhere, and not just Japanese American descendants, but of course, so many people from China and other different countries in the East. And to me, I think of just This like legacy of pioneerism where they like left their homeland and went to America for maybe many different complex reasons. Um, and just the tenacity, the fierceness of, of taking root in, in a land that's outside of their homeland. And what it might feel like and be like to go back to Japan, um, for somebody who has roots in Japan. What it might feel like to, to be able to not feel that sense of difference in every day of their life. And, um, so some of my friends who have, um, Asian ancestry, you know, that's just one of the very complex struggles that they faced in their life is this undercurrent. Of racism, that's just really prevalent. And it's, from my perspective, it can be hard to see it every day. But when somebody who's Japanese descent or African American descent, you know, this is their lived story. And it kind of brings me to this thought about those wounds that we, we can't really heal, um, without change in our society. And change in the way we treat other people and so days like the Japanese Day of Remembrance and remembering the atrocities that were done to Japanese citizens and just Japanese people, um, can be a powerful ally in healing that, um, and offering that remembrance and that context and perspective. Um, I had a client once who, uh, had ancestry from Latin America and she often described in our healing sessions, just the incredible amount of bigotry she faced in her day to day living. And the, the, how many times, you know, people jump ahead of her in line. People assume that, you know, would just do things to put her down and, um, and for that woman, my heart broke because so much of what she was going through was so much bigger than what we were doing together, healing sessions. We were speaking about these pains and pressures of oppression in society, right? And for healing for her. It was so complex. It was so multidimensional. It was so ancestral as well. And, um, to me, it really, these are all of the inspirations for why I really put, um, trauma informed and decolonized principles into my Reiki practice because, um, we desperately need healing spaces where people can, um, you know, not be in that narrative and can receive healing and can feel Um, equality and companionship and camaraderie and, um, compassion for the ways in which society treats us. Um, and that, and that also can be for women too, right? I think women, we also experience our own form of systemic injustices in our life. And um, and it's not all men's fault either, right? But um, and that's why I'll leave it here. But just that. Find that healing is such a complex and profound, um, uh, topic and, you know, we think of it as so simple, perhaps, but it's really so much bigger than that. And I think that it's helpful to remind ourselves as healers, um, that we do need safe spaces, um. for people with ancestral trauma, with generational trauma, for every soul to feel loved and accepted for who they are. And, um, and, and those little pockets of humanity as we grow them, you know, they can be such a healing balm for people who struggle with this in their daily life. Yes. I mean, there's a, there's a lot in this and, uh, It took me to, uh, when, um, when I was, um, writing the Japanese out of Reiki and. Looking for photos for it. And, um, we were looking for a place that we could get some really beautiful sort of Japanese inspired photos, because the name of the book was the Japanese art of Reiki. And it really was that time for me of. Trying to, um, express to the world that the Japanese origins of the system without pretending to be Japanese or anything like that, but just being able to give a feel of that. And, uh, I live in outside of Sydney, in New South Wales, in Australia. And, uh, it was like, Hmm, where am I going to find this? So. I did a little bit of research, came up with a place called Kawara, which is about three hours from here. And there is this beautiful Japanese garden. And this Japanese garden is the largest of its kind in the Western, um, hemisphere. And it's actually a copy of a, um, of a garden that was built in, uh, Japan in, in Tokyo during the Edo period. So the period before, oh, we'll say 1600 to mid 1800s. And, uh, it has its own history, which I'll tell you in a minute, but the, the, the history of this one here in Australia, this beautiful Japanese garden, its history As a remembrance of the, um, Japanese people who died in Australia and were interned and were prisoners of war. Um, uh, they were POWs, prisoners of wars in, um, in Australia. So it was specifically as a way of connecting with, um, Japan and making some sort of. I don't know if it's, I don't even think it's necessarily what you would call a reparation, but definitely a, a reaching out to someone. And so Australians reaching out to, um, the Japanese culture and saying, we have been through things that, um, that were terrible and, um, we're going to create something beautiful out of that. And that's. This garden. Yeah. So, um, in fact, that garden, all the Japanese who died during World War II, uh, in Australia, were, their bodies were all moved to that garden. And so it's one, it, it, it, in its totality, um, is, is really a remembrance of what happened here in Australia, which, as I said, we don't, necessarily think of. Australians don't really recognize the fact that we did intern, uh, just, um, Japanese people, but also German people, people from different countries around the world, Italians, um, in, in World War I and World War II. So we had internees and we also had prisoner of war, prisoners of war. So, um, the internees were people who were not They hadn't necessarily done anything wrong. They just belong to a specific race. Yep. And, uh, so we, we also have a history of that. Uh, not as I said, a widely recognized one, then the actual garden. And I think this is quite interesting that it reflects the garden that was created in, uh, in Tokyo. Uh, that garden was actually created by. The Shogun of the time had taken all these families and kidnapped them and held them hostage. So it has a similar sort of feel about it. He held them hostage and he made them create this garden as a map. Of, uh, Japan and to tell of different things that were happening, information that he wanted, um, and they created this garden to tell a specific story. So it was actually created originally in Japan by people who were captive. And then, In Australia also that, um, that, uh, was then replicated, uh, as a, as a remembrance for people who were captured and, um, and held. So, that's that story. I, for me, it's very important, the Japanese roots of the system of Reiki. It's something that has always, um, motivated me in every aspect of Of my interaction with the system. Uh, and it's a weird thing, isn't it? Because, you know, we're not, well, I'm not Japanese. And, uh, so it's, it's the wonderful thing that Mikau Usui, when he, um, put the system together, you know, that he said. It's for everyone. Doesn't matter who you are, whether you're a woman, a man, a child, an old person, or what race you belong to. Uh, it is something that you can do and practice. And I love that. Hawaii Takata is. Uh, you know, has said that she's simplified the system and as Michaela and, um, Carrie also, you know, explained, there can be various reasons for the simplification, um, and definitely not discussing, uh, it's, it's very strong Japanese roots, uh, would be part of that simplification and people wouldn't. You know, there are times where people would never have understood that or wanted to be involved in something like that. I know growing up, um, in the seventies when I was a kid that, you know, anything from Japanese, there was this very anti Japanese sentiment in Australia still. And if you think that the end of the war was what, 1945. So in the seventies, Australians still had a very strong feeling of anything that was Japanese was, um, Was talked down and, uh, was certainly not, uh, a culture that anyone wanted to be involved with or to show an interest in at that point. Obviously that's changed over the years. Uh, but yeah, I, I remember growing up with that and, uh, You know, we culturally, what do we do? We always find a race that is going, we, you know, this is, this seems to be a human need to put people down, right? And it changes. It'll be one race and it's another race and it's another race. And something like the system of Reiki is, as you guys have mentioned, it's an equal playing ground. It's not about race. It's not about how we look. Um, definitely not about skin color and definitely not even really about culture. Um, we can learn about the system of Reiki where it comes from. I love that. I love knowing its roots. And I think that really informs me and I also find a lot of similarities between, um, for example, Shintoism and other cultures. I mean, if we look at the history of humankind, we are a nature based culture, all of us, we all come from nature. And, uh, I think Japan Has a very strong connection to that and it's definitely a strong part of the system of Reiki and that attracts me very much. So, you know, recognizing that, understanding that, knowing where it comes from, bringing that into my own life and comparing it with what I know from my own culture. It's interesting, uh, and it, as I said, it, it motivates me. It gives me, um, great joy and, uh, I'm thrilled to be able to be practicing this system that is so open and welcoming to everyone, even though it does come from a specific, one specific country and culture. Wow, I loved hearing about that garden, Bronwyn. Thank you so much for sharing about that. The, just the poetic poignancy of an intentionality of designing it in that way and connecting that, you know, threading that history of, of confinement, you know, and then creating a new story about that. I think that's really, really beautiful. Um, and then there's a poignancy for me personally, like in this conversation, because, you You know, I've, I've shared before that when I started to, you know, when I started practicing the system of Reiki in its Western form, I kind of set aside my, you know, usual perspective around, you know, not wanting to appropriate culture and so on. I just, you know, was very excited about the system and at a certain point, you know, had this. You know, awareness really come, you know, front of mind and I couldn't ignore it anymore that I was, um, you know, we knew the system came from Japan, but I, I wasn't being taught anything about what that meant. And I was being taught elements that I knew were not from Japan, but there was no explanation about that. There was no context and, you know, all of that. And when I really, you know, opened up to, I need to do this differently. Like, is there anybody out there who's teaching about. What this practice originally was, you know, immediately I found your book, you know, like that was like, you know, it just got put in my hand. Right. When I was, um, When I became open to the information. And, um, so yeah, there's a tenderness about, you know, just even this friendship, like for me, um, came from that, that impulse to come into better integrity with this history. Um, and, and then, you know, carry what you were sharing about, you know, just about the healing energy of Reiki and, and how we can be in relationship with that in this context, you know, for me. Um, you know, Reiki is a healing practice that is about relationship. You know, it's like, it's almost like for me, Reiki heals through relationship, through deepening and repairing our relationship with ourself, with the world, with the land, with each other. Um. With history, right? And, and that's kind of where my mind went is like, as we repair these relationships with ourselves, with the land, with each other, that repairing relationship with what has come before and what has shaped who we are historically, culturally has to be a part of that. Um, that doesn't mean that we're, you know, we, we can undo every wrong that's ever been. Of course, we can't. But, you know, what are the pieces that, that are ours to carry, you know, what is it, you know, I can't, I can't undo what was done. I wasn't there and I can't, um, obviously go back in time. But if we look at well, but, but what did I inherit? You know, what did I inherit in this, in this life that is mind to control, that I can take action around, um, you know, certainly in this microcosm of this conversation, I have inherited a system of practice that I love dearly, but that was handed to me in a form that was almost unrecognizable from its original form. And. untangling that unrecognizability, like following those threads back to the origins matters. Um, so much, I think for each of us, whether or not we choose to practice in that way, you know, I choose You know, the three of us to varying degrees have chosen to practice as much as we can from those origins to learn as much as we can from those origins. And, you know, I, I, I would guess that the through that the two of you, uh, also have experienced that doing that makes us very effective in our practice. There's a certain, um, effectiveness that comes from, from being in those origins, but then there's also this repair of the relationship between us. And the system of practice that is essential and even if a person doesn't choose to practice that form, you know, many people that, um, I know, and people that I've taught have, you know, actually found the Western forms of Reiki to serve them better, to be more aligned with their goals and their worldview and their beliefs. and their experiences. Um, and that's, that's fine, right? We should each be in the practice that best serves us. But if you, if, if those of you listening fall into that category, you know what I would urge you to consider is the value of understanding the difference between the system of practice that you practice and its original form and to be able to articulate that and to see the pieces that were blended into the system of Reiki, um, that were from other places. Um, I, you know, it's an interesting question, Ron, when you said, you know, Reiki, you know, for Reiki culture doesn't matter. I, I don't think I would phrase it that way, um, or agree with. That's, well, I would be curious to know more about what you mean by that. I think for me, um, anybody of any culture can practice this practice, uh, but understanding where it came from, you know, if we're going to call something Reiki, which is a word that comes from a culture that has a history, has a particular language, has a particular meaning, then we ought to know what that is. And if we're going to practice something, then we That is completely different from that thing. This is a little bit of a hot take. Okay. I realize this is a little, this particular piece is a little bit, um, out there. I know. But for me, we maybe should actually call it something different. Um, that if we're going to practice something that is Unrecognizable from its original form, then perhaps we're actually not practicing that thing anymore. And it maybe it needs a different name. I don't think that's going to happen. I'm not pushing for that. But, you know, I do want us to kind of expand our imagination on what does it mean to be in good right relationship with this practice and. You know, what, what might that mean? What might be that piece of responsibility that each of us has, um, for that, uh, for holding, you know, whatever piece of that is ours to hold. So I'm curious for the two of you, you know, what, what might you advise to, to folks who might want to, you know, be in a little bit of a. More integrous relationship or deepen that relationship, um, expand that relationship with the system of Reiki, um, as a healing gesture, right? As a form of healing, uh, repairing that relationship. What, what comes up for the two of you on how you would recommend people go about that? Well, I, you know, I think that the answer is very nuanced, you know, might be very unique to individuals. Uh, your own particular history, uh, your own stories related to how you came to be on the land that you're on and, um, and in your own, um, unique connection to Reiki as well. And those things that, um, like I was talking to somebody recently about chakras and how, how meaningful chakras were for this person on their, um, in their entry into Reiki. And, um, I feel the same way, you know, chakras were quite a profound tool to work with in the context of Reiki, yet to understand that they don't come from the same place and to understand that the Japanese worldview on the subtle body is different than the chakras, um, you know, for me, it does come back to, at first, like acknowledgement, right, is being really clear, um, when we're working with aspects of Reiki that Um, is to acknowledge where these things came from and to acknowledge why they're, why we might be incorporating them into the context of Reiki as well. Um, but I also think, you know, it's, it's acknowledgement can sometimes be a little trite when. Well, first of all, what I love what you said, um, Michaela, is that, you know, is to remember that we're not responsible for, you know, these atrocities that happened in the past. And, um, there is a tendency to kind of go to a shameful place or, uh, the feeling of guilt or, you know, maybe some of our own trauma that we have, um, you know, no matter what race you are, your own experiences. So, um, it certainly can stir that up for ourselves. So, um. It's important to honor that and work through it as well, but, um, for me, you know, it was an incredible catalyst to change the way I practice and was in relationship with Reiki and did invite me into a greater, you know, what I feel is a greater integrity with the practice, although I can't really judge that for anyone else. When I was in Japan, Speaking with, um, Japanese reiki practitioners, one of the things that they said was if you claim that reiki comes from any other place than Japan that they personally found that very offensive, um, and so that's another, I think, just one of the things Good line to follow is to acknowledge that Reiki does come from Japan, um, and engage in, um, this appreciation for the Japanese culture. Um, another aspect of this, I think, is unlearning. Unlearning, like you talked about, is kind of really going back to the roots of Reiki and kind of peeling away the different ways in which Reiki was modified to, um, to become what it is today for, you know, whatever reason it was modified. Um, beyond just the cultural appropriation or, you know, these, uh, kind of culturally racist underpinnings, um, but in, in that process of unlearning and untangling is this depth of complexity and in that space. I think, um, the, these ideas around non duality are super helpful to recognize, like. Yes, these chakras are incredibly useful and can be incredibly powerful for people's healing and they're in the context of Reiki and they're merged and married together as if they're one in the same, but they're not so you know, and I think each of us as practitioners has a duty to to work with those questions and Figure out how you're gonna address them and acknowledge them in your practice. And, uh, in so doing though, I think the benefit of that is that we get to have more diverse Reiki communities. And if you care about these topics, you can bring Reiki into places that might be deeply impacted by, um, You know, cultural and systemic racism. So like recently I got a grant to give Reiki and yoga services to the Yurok tribe, which is the largest Native American tribe in, um, in the United States. And it was just really fulfilling to work with that community and. Um, be able to actually earn a decent wage for my time, my energy, my effort, but also being able to work and, um, and help people in a marginalized community. And so I think there's lots of potential for some win wins too when we, we blend this knowledge into our practice. Um, I'm sure Bronwyn has a lot of beautiful things to say about that. Yeah. It's really interesting. And thank you both for, you know, all the interesting things you have to say. I think you might've misunderstood, Michaela, what I said earlier about cultural stuff, because all I was meaning is that whatever culture we are from, it doesn't matter. We can practice this system. And for example, I was just thinking about that with Cary. That's beautiful. Cary, you know, going into, um, what tribe is that? Because I don't know it. Sorry. Um, it's Yurok tribe, Yurok. Is that E U R O C? It's Y U R O K. All right, totally different. Thank you. Um, so the Yurok tribe, but you know, it doesn't mean that, um, so Carrie's going there with, with the system of Reiki, it doesn't mean that she has to, um, uh, take on the Yurok tribes. Um, beliefs or understandings or that they need to take on her beliefs and understandings. But what it does mean is that the system of Reiki is just so, um, adaptable in that sense, I guess, in that there, it isn't a dogma. It's not something that you, um, have to, um, to experience it. You do not have to be Japanese or, uh, or, or, you know, um, work from that culture. However, I do think it's incredibly important that, um, that you have an understanding of that. And I think the chakras is a really good example, Carrie, as well. Um, because, uh, what, what you called a hot take before Michaela was something I felt like yelling out at one point when you were saying, but I was controlling, I've, I've learned so much from being on this podcast, you know, I don't call out. And, uh, but I behave myself, right. I'm learning. It's very good. Um, but you know, I was just like, when you're talking about something, I was like, yeah, but why are they calling it Reiki, you know, because it does seem to me that some, a lot of the practices that call themselves. You know, the system of Reiki are not the system of Reiki. They are something else. And that is totally valid in itself. Why not? You know, I think of it this way, Mikau Isui created this system. Why can't someone else create another system? There's no reason why they can't. And we all influence each other things. I'm sure he was had lot, you know, we know that he had lots of influences in his life, but you know. He called it his own thing and, uh, I think that way more appropriate than actually taking the appropriation of someone's, the name of a system. And I do think it's largely for marketing purposes, um, and really instead just create your own thing and go for it. Enjoy it. Love it. Yeah. But it's a different thing. So, you know, with, I think with, um, like incorporating chakras, it's a different thing. I just don't really, I don't see that, um, that it is a part of the system of Reiki. Um, but, um, if people, as Carrie was saying, if people want to do things like that, yeah, then the acknowledgement of that. You know, it almost feels like it's the opposite these days. It's almost like we have to acknowledge that we're doing Japanese stuff rather than a stuff, but you know, that, that we teach from a Japanese perspective. Um, that seems like what we have to acknowledge. It should be the other way around. We shouldn't have to acknowledge that it is a Japanese practice. Reiki, it's a Japanese word, you know, and Mikao Usui, he's a Japanese guy. He, uh, so. To instead, it should be around the other way. And people should be acknowledging if they're teaching something that is outside of the system of Reiki and saying, okay, I practice the system of Reiki and I include dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. If they want to do it that way, or they create a whole new system themselves. And, um, that's fantastic and fabulous. Um, I was just thinking about Hawaii Takata is talking about the simplification, you know, coming back to that. And, um, you know, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. And I think, yes, we should be grateful for the fact that she kept the practice going and, um, there was still a practice in Japan, but yes. Um, not definitely not out there. And, uh, um, so her practice, it's a beautiful thing to see that, um, for example, just about Japan, you know, like Chiyoko Yamaguchi, um, She passed on what she knew, uh, of the system of Reiki that she'd learned, um, from Hayashi and also from her uncle. So, you know, the passing on of information was also happening in Japan. And, uh, I sometimes think people forget that, that, that, you know, there is this very big focus on the Hawaii Takata. Um, but for sure, you know. Uh, what she taught did get it out into the world. Um, so I'm very thankful for that in her simplest simplifying things. I think it did leave space for people to, who could not work in such a simplified form to want to add stuff. And I do think that's where we've, we've gotten. So much additional information. And like you guys, I also, you know, I learned, I don't even know what it was. The first thing that I learned, it was a mishmash of stuff. It had Karuna Reiki stuff in it. You know, it had all different sorts of stuff in it. Um, so, you know, all those additions, um, They are things that I think were brought in because of the simplification of the system. Uh, possibly we need something that is not so simple. Maybe we just, I don't know. I mean, I appreciate understanding the Japanese aspects of the system. I think it informs my practice. It gives me more confidence and, um, and, and wisdom and experience. So that I appreciate Hawaii to Carter was her own self. And, you know, um, she did what she needed to do at that time. So I, I would like to see, um, I would still like to see the system of Reiki in its, um, Japanese aspects, be more acknowledged and for it to be the baseline rather than the sometimes what it feels like the exception. Absolutely. I think you're spot on that, that simplification that was necessary at the time, uh, kind of created this like wide open space that then got filled in a lot of ways. And that's, you know, again, we don't have to be. Um, you know, I appreciated Carrie that you brought up shame, right? We don't have to be ashamed of, of that, but we can take responsibility for unraveling that a little bit. And I love the, the reframing that you're talking about, Bronwyn, of making it, you know, the norm that this is a Japanese practice that looks like this. And then if we're going to make alterations to it, to name that specifically, and this is one of those places where language matters so much, right? And even like. Subtle shifts in language, um, like for example, I, I ran into a woman recently who, you know, said I developed a new form of Reiki. It's Celtic Reiki. Okay. Developed a new form of Reiki. It's Celtic Reiki. Well. I didn't have an opportunity to dig into what that meant, but you know, I, having, you know, Celtic lineage in my, my life, I've done a lot of, you know, comparison between the Shinto origins, that nature based origin that you've been talking about, and, um, and the nature based Celtic traditions that are part of my lineage, and, um, You know, that symmetry is so beautiful and it's so rich, right? And it's part of how I can step into the practice of Reiki in a way that feels really alive for me. Um, I would never say I'm practicing Celtic Reiki, right? I would make the distinction that I'm practicing Reiki, it looks like this, and there's these overlaps with certain Celtic practices. And so because there's that symmetry, I can, I can kind of feel the, the two together, um, and then name when, uh, you know, when I'm importing something, which, you know, generally it's not a whole practices, it's more the mindset that already exists inside of the Shinto origins. And so, you know, I think being careful for, uh, about how we name things is really important. And Before we, you know, say we've, we've designed a different system of Reiki, um, you know, let's go back. What actually is Reiki and what is it that I see the need for, right? What is the thing that I want to bring alongside of Reiki and why? And then how can I articulate that in a way that. As you said, Bronwyn, centers and forwards the origins of Reiki and then gives clear explanation for what and why we're bringing alongside that if we choose to do it. Um, yeah, just kind of subtle ways that we can, um, that we can center the origins of this practice in a way that, that really does matter. Um, that, that is our piece to carry, um, in this. And, and then, you know, beyond that, um, being connected with Japanese culture, generally, if we're going to choose to work with Reiki, um, you know, most, uh, certainly most urban places will have a Japanese cultural center or Buddhist temples, places that you can get involved. A lot of those things are now available online. I study with a Shingon temple in Seattle online. Um, there's a lot more access to having cultural experiences. Um. From people who really want to share them, uh, who want us to be a part of it, um, much more accessible now. Um, and then of course, lots of resources available on learning this history, and we'll put some of those, um, resources in the video description down below for those of you who want to dig a little bit deeper. I can say one more thing about that, and I, um, know we're kind of coming to a conclusion here, but I think what, where we landed really is so super important is you can't just stop here after this. Talk if this matters to you, if this is important to you, first of all, it's, it is kind of inappropriate that three white women are talking about this. I mean, even though we care about this topic, it's not our lived experience. And so, um, you know, seeking out Japanese people, having that deep, uh, deeper appreciation for their culture and practice, learning from them, uh, learning from marginalized communities, listened, listening to marginalized voices. And, um, and. receiving healing, you know, um, and incorporating healing practices from marginalized communities when it feels appropriate to you. But, um, so that we're not going to continue to perpetuate these kind of white stereotypes and white hierarchies, um, that is, has everything to do with this topic. And, um, and so, um, I think it's very easy. It's very easy, like, for me to say, oh, you know, we're all equal in, in the world of Reiki, you know, right? And it's not necessarily the case because of other influences and experiences. But for me, that's what it feels like. But that, as you say, Carrie, that is not everybody's experience. Yeah, totally. And we can be honest about our own experiences, but I think that this is, um, you know, the steps that we all need to take in order to make our communities more diverse and really create the safety and trust and, um, set the stage so that we can do that well for each other. Hey, I'm going to do a plug for something that I've been doing. Do it. Which is, um, just, uh, just about my WACA, um, 21 day WACA class that I've, um, it's an on demand class so you can do it at any time, but it really is about looking at, it, it's each day you get an email and it tells you a, a historical aspect about how poetry was used within the system of Reiki, why it was used, um, a little bit about the imperial families, the history of that, um, and lots of resources as you go along to learn more. So, um. I loved putting this together and it is the idea that we, though today we may not actually use things like the poetry. I know Michaela you've done classes as well with um, poetry and that it's very dear to you as well and uh, possibly Carrie too. I, I don't know how you work with it. So, you know, I, It is a part of the system of Reiki and it's something that, um, in the simplification it's been taken out. And I think that people think that poetry is not so important today. In fact, we've done podcasts on poetry, haven't we, as well. So, you know, it, it really is such a beautiful way of contemplating ourselves and the world that we're in, and especially the Japanese Weka poetry, because it is about nature and, uh, you know, bringing us back into that. Into that aspect again. So, um, if you're interested, please, um, pop along to Reiki with Bronwyn and, um, join up for that. Anyone like to plug? Go for it guys. What was that? Talking over each other right now. Um, you go ahead, Mikayla. Oh, I was just saying I, um, I have a Shodan Reiki 1 class starting, uh, March 3rd that is, um, hybrid online or in person class. So if somebody wants to dive into, uh, first degree Reiki taught, um, very much and as much as I possibly can from his Japanese origins, um, that is an opening opportunity. So similarly, I have some Reiki courses coming up, but one of the projects that I'm really excited about, it's not out there yet, but is I will be offering a webinar on the roots of Reiki and talking about the history of Reiki from its origins in Japan and opening it up to anybody to, to learn more about the history of Japan prior to Western influence and history of Reiki, I should say. Prior to Western influence. So, um, this is another little fire underneath my butt to get it done. But, um, hopefully that will be coming soon. And I can't wait for your WACA thing, um, it's out there, you should do it. It's really, it's just such a delight. I'm, you know, anyway, I keep adding to it, to be honest, I shouldn't be saying that, but I keep adding to it because I keep going, coming across more things and I think, Oh, yeah, that would be great in there. So you know, there's so much lovely stuff, um, that can really inform your practice. And I think, you know, um, that's why. You know, take it guys, whatever you can get and, uh, learn from it, allow it to influence you. And, uh, you don't have to be Japanese, but you definitely can get a lot from the similarities and the differences between our cultures. And, um, I, um, yeah, don't know what else to say about that. So thank you very much for joining us today. Please like us. So click the bell. You apparently get notifications when we put another podcast out there and we look forward to seeing you all at the next podcast. So, uh, whatever that might be, I'm, I'm looking forward to, to, um, chatting with you guys again as well. So, um, we'll see you all then. Bye for now. Bye. Yay.