Being with Death and Grief Through Reiki with Reiki Women Podcast

In this episode of the Reiki Women Podcast, hosts Carrie Varela, Michaela Daystar, and Bronwen Logan delve into the complex and tender topic of death and dying through a Reiki practice lens. 

They discuss how the system of Reiki can provide support and nourishment while contemplating life's impermanence, the practice of holding space for those in the cycle of death and dying, and the spiritual connections that persist beyond physical existence. 

The conversation also touches on cultural perspectives from Japan on death, the interconnectedness of all beings, and the importance of being present in the moment. 

The hosts share personal experiences and insights on how Reiki practice can aid in accepting and understanding the cycles of life and death, the significance of non-attachment, and how we can support others and ourselves through these transitions. 

They emphasize the importance of kindness and presence, respecting individual beliefs about death, and the role of Reiki in fostering a peaceful transition and understanding of life's final chapter.

00:00 Welcome to the Reiki Women Podcast
00:34 Exploring Death and Dying Through Reiki
01:33 Bronwen's Insights from Japan on Death and Reiki
04:14 The Interconnectedness of Life, Death, and Reiki
09:03 Personal Reflections on Death, Grief, and Reiki Practice
15:30 The Role of Reiki in Supporting the Dying and Grieving
40:22 Final Thoughts on Death, Dying, and Reiki

Additional Resources:
- Join our Facebook Group: Embodying Reiki
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 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz6Jk8QD_8hjlfpSM8suMIA

Bronwen Logan: https://ReikiwithBronwen.com
Carrie Varela: https://www.reikihealingsociety.com
Michaela Daystar: https://www.heartscapesinsight.com/

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Transcript

0:06

Hello and welcome to the Reiki Women Podcast. My name is Keri Varela. My business is the Reiki Healing Society and today I have the joy and honor to be with my colleagues um, to be talking about a very um, intense and tender topic. So before I introduce the topic, let me introduce my colleagues. We have Mikayla with Hearthscape Reiki and we have Bronwen with Reiki with Bronwen. And today we're going to be talking about the subject of death and dying and how the system of Reiki can support, um, both ourselves in the practice of contemplating the meaning of life, um, the perspective of life from death, um, to give ourselves some nourishment as we, um, you know, contemplate the ultimate reality of life, which is that it is impermanent and that one day we will transition out of this body and to a different form. And we're also going to be probably speaking to, you know, the whole task of holding space for somebody who is in a cycle of death and dying and, uh, you know, the, the tenderness and, uh, the way we want to show up as Reiki practitioners to be really be with people in those, um, intense and tender moments of life. So I know Bronwen has some wonderful things to share with us on this topic from Japan. So I'll hand it over to you. Thanks, Carrie. Yeah, I just thought it'd be interesting to think about, because we do a Japanese practice, you know, how do people think about in Japan? I am no expert, but I have a few little things that I can say about that. Um, and before I do that, uh, just about death, uh, interestingly, I think it was at a recent class that I had, um, you know, just maybe last week that someone said to me that she wondered, you know, what happens when people die, because she, um, didn't want to go down the new age route of thinking about, um, her mother who died. Um, and did I, what did I think about that? And, uh, you know, obviously I have no idea what happens after death, but, um, It was interesting because, uh, she was saying that she really felt that her, the energy of her mother was there, but she was worried that she was sort of going into this sort of, you know, sort of spacey sort of thing, right? And, uh, you know, my mother's also, um, dead and I think it's been almost two years now. So in that time, uh, you know, I, I always feel like. call in, if you like, my mum's energy, like that my mum's energy can be with me. And I think that's a really beautiful thing. Uh, so how does that sort of sit within the system of Reiki? Um, and, uh, the way that I see that is that it, It doesn't have to be, um, a new age sort of, uh, idea about, uh, energy and, uh, reincarnation. And I know that, you know, reincarnation, for example, comes, uh, through a number of cultures and, and it does in Japan as well, but rebirth is actually not, um, so important as it is in other cultures. It exists within Japanese Buddhism, but it is rather the idea that we are here in this present moment that is more important than us thinking about moving into other lives. So, I think there is a, that is one foundational difference, um, in, in Japanese Buddhism, for example, which is that, um, obviously affects the system of Reiki because if you think about it, the precepts start with for today only. So it's bringing us right into this moment right now. So what are we feeling now and what's going on and how are we living right now? That is considered, uh, more important. Um, I think if we think about this idea of distance healing as well, Uh, that, that definitely fits into, uh, a Japanese, uh, perspective of interconnectedness, which is very much a Buddhist concept, this idea that we are all connected. And that is why when I was talking to, um, this, this, uh, this woman about, uh, you know, her feeling her mother. If we think about total interconnectedness, it means that there is no. body, no time. Uh, and in fact, there is this sort of essence that exists and, uh, always exists. So that, I think, is why Um, why we can feel, um, uh, people who are dead, for example, that, that, that experience is very much, um, with us in our lives, if we wish it to be so. The other part of that is that it is what I would actually consider to be more for us an internal experience rather than an external experience. So it's almost, if we have this idea of interconnectedness, then there's not like me and spirit guides, let's put it that way. right? Because that's like two separate beings. Yeah. But if it's coming from inside of me and I am interconnected with the essence of everything, then my openness to the experience of being with my mother, for example, means that my mother is then in this, in this space with me in this present moment. Um, because there is, in that Buddhist sense, no, uh, time, no space, no, no body. Yeah. Um, yes. I hope I'm not getting too, uh, esoteric out here. Um, and it brought me just that idea back to then the idea of kami. So these divine spirits, it's Shinto perspective, um, within Japan and which also influences the system of Reiki and how we practice and why we practice and the thoughts behind it. And you know, um, in Japan, it's believed that we, we practice on ourselves to nurture our inner kami. So our inner divine spirit. And yet everything has, there is, there are these divine spirits all over the place. And, um, You might see them in temples or not see them, but they, you know, the, the idea that they're in temples, uh, or in a tree or in a forest, in a rock, but also in a person. So, um, what happens? My question for this is what happens when, um, someone dies, for example, or let's say, um, say a tree is cut down. What happens to the Kami of that tree? And so the Kami of that tree, um, the essence. of it doesn't die. So it doesn't, the Shinto belief is not, uh, in the same, it doesn't have the same sort of tangibility of our understandings of we're here, then we're not here. Um, they believe that even though the actual tree may be gone, the essence of that tree still exists somehow, somewhere. And, uh, that sort of brings us back into that sort of idea of, um, I guess, interconnectedness as well, as everything is here in this moment, uh, in some form, in some way. And I know that, for example, in temples in Japan, if you, if there are kami in those temples, or there are kami in those temples, in a Shinto temple, if the temple is, um, ignored, And, you know, it's let to go to rack and ruin, then the power of that commie is also diminished. So we can see that it's a, it's still about us, if you like, because it's about how we, um, from inside of us, what we put into things as to what we actually experience in this life. Um, so there's a whole bunch of different ideas for you. And, uh, I don't know where you want to take that, guys. Go for it. I love that context setting, and I love any time that we can kind of root our conversation in, you know, a glimpse, as well as we can get, of how might this be seen, you know, from the perspectives of the origins of, you know, Of Reiki. Um, and you know, of course this is a huge topic and a number of different ways that we can explore it. Um, what really comes up for me, especially in listening to you Bronwyn, is you know, what stood out to me was this idea of relationship that, you know, even like what you just shared about the temple, that when our. You know, relationship with that sacred space and the energy of that space is neglected, um, or corrupted in some way or made, you know, on unclean or toxic in some way that, that, you know, it, it damages that relationship and therefore the, the energy that's available inside of that. Um, and that's, you know, a lot of where my mind begins when I think about. When I think about death and I think about it from the perspective of, you know, my American culture and the way that we are so very death defying and death resisting and avoidant, um, in our culture, it's really quite, um, It's really quite overwhelming when you think about it, the way that, you know, from everything from the way we kind of fetishize youth as the ideal, you know, sort of way of being, to the way that we, you know, segregate out, um, elderly people who are coming towards the end of their lives, to the way that we even prepare for their future. our bodies for death by kind of pumping us full of poison, you know, to try to preserve our body, for some reason, before putting it in the ground. And when I think about all of those things in terms of our relationship with the world and relationship with the spirits of the world, the energy of the world, the essence of the world, however we want to think about it, That we are doing such a profound disservice to that relationship and therefore cutting ourself off from something incredibly essential as a living being. I think we're doing spiritual damage to ourselves, let alone environmental damage and relational damage when we kind of avoid looking at death and grief and do all of these things to try to, you know, Trick ourselves into thinking that it's, it's much farther away than it actually is where we're doing great spiritual damage to ourselves when we behave in that way. And so a lot of my, um, relationship with Reiki has supported. You know, a, a, a gradual mindset shift, right? And I'm not going to say that it's, it's a complete mindset shift, but, um, I feel much more settled with where I am now, having worked with the system of Reiki from the perspective of relationships and the perspective of, um, you know, being in good, right relationship with the world. And, you know, I think about that, you know, the question of what happens after we die, right? You know, what is, what is, what, you know, is there a soul and what does it go and is it essence or is it a soul and is it reincarnated? For some reason, these are questions that have never, I've never really pursued. They don't intrigue me. I've never. Followed them. Maybe that'll change as I get older. Um, I'm just not interested in those questions, but what I am interested in is what is my relationship with the natural world? And how does my reciprocity with the world look with regard to death? And when I look at that, I see that, you know, from a biological perspective, we We build our physical bodies from the nutrients of the earth from, you know, resources that are created that are finite, but that are designed to be recycled, that are designed to be put through cycles of life and reused. Our energy is that way and the physical matter of our bodies is that way. And. You know, for throughout our whole life, we're, we're extracting resources to just, you know, have this, this amazing body that we get to have. And then when we die, if we choose to either cremate ourselves. Or, you know, embalm our body, put poison in our body, and then put it in the earth, we're, we're dishonoring that relationship, you know, we're, we're extracting from the earth and not giving back, not being reciprocal in that relationship, and dishonoring the kami that's inside of ourself. And that is inside of the piece of land that we're perhaps going to be in our final resting place. And when I think about that, and you know, even in the question that the unknowing of what happens to our spirit or our essence after we die, it just strikes me that we are, you know, whatever essence there might be, uh, separate from our body, we're dishonoring it when we don't treat our body as a good partner to the land. And that might feel very far afield from the conversation about Reiki, but for me, it's very intimately tied together and as well tied together with, um, you know, Celtic spiritual perspectives that are my own lineage, uh, both of which, you know, the Shinto perspectives of, uh, Japan and, um, you know, indigenous, uh, Celtic perspectives. If you go way back, you know, share a lot in common around these themes. Um, and so practicing the system of Reiki where it's directing our attention to that essential relationship has been really transformative for me in thinking about death in a different way, as well as, you know, being at peace with not knowing what, what that final, you know, or what that next chapter looks like for me. Um, so that's kind of the first place that my mind goes is. How can our Reiki practice help us to be in better relationship with the earth in part by being very honest and clear and looking clearly at the fact that, you know, we will give up this body at one point. And how can we do that in a way that honors the Kami inside of us and the Kami of the line of the land, and that keeps that relationship clean and keeps that relationship engaged and dynamic so that that energy can be. can be in its full power and that the resources that we have taken from the earth can go back to the earth in a, in good stead. Um, so that's the first place my mind lands. Um, and I'll pause there. Uh, the other place that it goes is, you know, on a human to human level, how can we be with death, When we're, we are impacted by it ourself, when we're holding space for other people, um, you know, how does Reiki support us? And that is, is the other track that my mind goes. And I'd love to hear what comes up for you, Carrie, when you meditate on this vast topic. Well, thank you to the both of you. I think, um, you guys did a really good job of laying the tracks on this conversation. And I love Bronwen that you mentioned the distant healing. And I think that that's a release. profound way that Reiki can help support us, um, connecting to our spirit, connecting to others who have passed and, uh, creating a spiritual relationship with people who are important to us who have died. Um, and knowing that that's unique and looks different for every person, um, And I love the way you said it, Michaela, is just being okay with not knowing. And I think that in our modern world, it is just challenging. It's challenging to sit with the unknown. It's challenging to sit with the why. And, um, and yet, you know, the death and dying really transports us right into that place. Where, you know, and I think in our human mind, our grief centered mind, we want to have answers. Um, and I think a big part of the grieving process and why it is so hard is that there aren't any often. Um, And it's up for us to make sense of that process. Um, I've been reading recently this book called The Spirit of Reiki, and I've never, uh, I've heard of this book for many years, but I've been working my way through the material, and, um, in that book, they talk a little bit about the different levels of ki. In Japanese culture and the so that like Kenki is the key of the blood, for example, and then there's this like hierarchy that goes up and I want to investigate this topic a little bit more. But, um, according to their sources, they say, you know, the highest level is Reiki. And Reiki representing soul key, the, the, the key of our soul, the soul energy. And so I think Reiki is a profound gift to us in moments of unknowing and death and dying. And if we, if we link those two together, um, And, uh, you know, so there's, there's a lot of bridge here between faith and spirituality, uh, religion, um, but, you know, for myself, after contemplating reincarnation for, you know, Most of my spiritual life and thinking about that a bit to me It just makes sense that this is the cycle of life that we are meant to let go of these bodies we're meant to have other after opportunities and lifetimes and that that is the cycle of life and You know, beyond the veil between death and dying is that there is this faith and trust and I think our spirituality is should be one that helps us move into that space, you know, knowing that we're never fully going to know, but perhaps giving us some insight into the nature of, of, of life and death and, um, Well, so, so a couple thoughts on that is, you know, I've had some people who were really close to me pass away and some people who are close to me manage, uh, go through some really, really painful, um, you know, death problems, having, well not problems, but death, death transitions in their life, like friends of mine who lost their children and, um, partners and, um, siblings and, you know, just all of that. And it's just, you know, So hard, like it is so hard to let go of those people that we love so much. And, um, I think deep in, uh, you know, and then my own feeling of connection with my family too, you know, just my own worry about my kids and my partner and everything. Knowing that right now for me, life feels pretty, uh, wonderful. And of course I wanted to keep it that way, but, um, one time when I was deep in a meditation, I felt this message or felt this. spirit kind of, you know, that this, this meditation was so beautiful and so blissful and so full of light. And the message was to just trust that there are different like that, you know, when we die and let go of this body, that there is even a deeper sense of joy and fulfillment that we can find, uh, beyond this life. And, um, you know, I, again, I don't know if that's true, but I choose to believe it's true because it gives me hope and it gives me a reason to understand the depth of love and connection and to believe that that connection is ongoing. The hardest part of, I think, going through grief and losing somebody you love is to let them go fully. And when I was in Japan, and I was, um, talking, uh, actually, Yakuten Inomoto, he was, um, you know, part of the tour we went on in Japan, and he was talking a little bit about that perspective on, um, letting go, uh, through the lens of Buddhism, and he kept talking about the two primary things. elements of the system of Reiki that really come from Buddhism is that life is impermanent, life is always changing, and that, you know, in order to really be in that flow of life, we need to practice non attachment. And I think non attachment is really one of the, um, aspects of grief and letting go that are also just so hard, you know, so hard to let go of people we love, so hard to see people we love suffering, um, letting them go and transition and continue their journey. Um, no matter what it looks like, even if it takes us away from each other, um, I think also people, you know, I guess one more thought here is that I don't know personally if, if life and death is meant to be a complete mystery. Um, you know, just like we figured out, um, you know, how to light our homes and to, to have amazing and immense technological marvels. I think. Do you believe that this whole mystery of death and rebirth is something that perhaps over a course of millennia or even from our ancestors that people do understand, um, you know, the depth of that transformation and experience. And so it is helpful to look through the lens of Buddhism and other, um, world's traditions to give us some meaning and hope to carry us through those moments where it does feel really dark and heavy. So those are my thoughts. I think for me, the, this idea of hope, Carrie sounds to me, uh, like a religious sort of thing and it feels just, it's just for me, right? So, I mean, I was brought up a Catholic and I know you had a religious upbringing and Michaela, I'm not sure about you. Oh, you didn't, did you? That's right. I was raised by atheists. That's right. That's right. But, you know, if you have this religious upbringing, there's something in us that is, um, well, the grass is green. I remember we were talking about that, you know, and it's like, isn't it, that's what we're sort of taught, you know, if we'll be, if you're good, then you get that, right. This sort of idea. And I do think that Buddhism, for example, doesn't necessarily do that. Yep. Yeah. Well, it depends possibly what sort of Buddhism, but if we're looking at the Japanese, um, aspects of this idea that really what we're looking for is finding it all in this moment. And I find that really helpful for me because it is saying that I don't need to, uh, I don't need to attain something, uh, but rather be something right now. And that is a different experience. And I think this idea of death is possibly not so important within this idea, because what we actually want to do is we want to, um, maybe this is just going against what I just said, but we want to reach enlightenment, right? That word reach is like attain. So, but, you know, if we can bring into each moment of our lives, this sense of enlightenment, which is very much a, a, a Reiki concept, we are being the great bright light. So each choice that I make, I'm choosing from that perspective of wanting to be this great bright light that, um, that is the thing. And that I, I feel like I don't have a great deal of curiosity about death. myself either. And possibly it's because of this feeling of, of wanting to, wanting to, but you know, this, this, um, being here, do it, what I'm doing now is the thing rather than it being outside of this, uh, being something else. And, uh, for me, I think that's, Yeah, just sitting into this each moment and it is, is, is the thing that, um, It appears to me to be a very Reiki concept, and that does go along with the idea of impermanence, of, uh, taking each of these names, just, openly, uh, without attachment and, um, experiencing them for what they are and shining myself into all of that. Uh, yes. And, um, I guess the other side of this that, that maybe Michaela is what you were starting to talk about before is how do we support people, um, who are dying or have family members, um, who. uh, dying or, yeah, and, uh, and how the system of Reiki can help us with that. So I, I have been with, um, Uh, maybe everyone's done this, but I, it was, for me, it was a big thing to be with someone who was dying and to be with them in that space of, of, uh, of Reiki and healing. And um, it was right at the very beginning of my practice and, uh, this person couldn't talk or really do anything, um, but when I moved away, this person lifted their hands up like this to me. And it was sort of like, it was the most, it, it felt like it was involuntary and that it was just something that would, that they were so, something in them was so touched, even though they were sort of not of this world anymore. And, uh, yeah. It was really so beautiful. Um, so I would encourage anyone, if you get the opportunity to sit with people who are in that space and move into, who are dying and, and sit in the space of, of healing, uh, this healing space of being in Reiki. You don't need to put your hands all over their body or anything like that. Just be with them, maybe hold their hand, uh, if that's possible. If not, it's okay too. And just know that, um, where you sit that, that, you know, you're shining your great bright light out onto the world and that world is there and, and, and it's feeling that light. Um, it's supportive and it's loving. Uh, it's a really beautiful thing to do. Uh, so I would suggest that, uh, for everyone, if you get the opportunity to do. Yeah, I really agree with that. And, and I know that one question that might come up right away. I mean, it certainly does seem For me, in a certain sense, you know, when hearing that invitation is like, Oh, but, but what do I do? And like, how can I be with something so difficult or, you know, awkward, or I'm going to feel so bad and, you know, all of these things that are, you know, very normal, but that really get in the way of, of that connection or even that willingness to be in that situation. And then also, you know, similarly to be with people who are grieving, um, the loss of somebody, there's this overwhelming feeling often that we have to do something. I mean, there's a problem that has to be fixed and we have to change something so that the person feels better, you know, gets to the other side of it. And so much of what you were just speaking to is really, it's really the, the antidote to that. It's the medicine to that, you know, this, this simple, yet challenging to really embody idea. that really there's nothing to attain in that moment. There's, there's nothing to do. There's nothing to fix. Um, that, you know, if the person that we're with is struggling to come to acceptance, you know, last week we talked about acceptance, you know, it's perfectly legitimate to struggle with acceptance when you've just lost somebody, you know, of course, acceptance being one of the, the phases of grief that one can arrive at. But oftentimes there is this struggle against the reality of it. If that person is in that space, can we be in a place of acceptance? Right? Can we hold that space of acceptance for them or alongside of them and be in a place where we're not feeling that there's something we have to attain in that moment? Something we have to fix or change or make right. You know, can we simply be an open space to hold what that person is experiencing? Um, and can we be at peace inside of that even if they are not? You know, whether they are a person who is going through a dying process, sometimes that's peaceful, sometimes it is not at all peaceful. Um, you know, can we, you know, Um, be in a state of groundedness, openness, connection, and acceptance so that we can really be present for them in that moment. And that's, you know, so much of what Reiki guides us towards as a practice when we're practicing it from the mindset of these origins. Because there are ways to practice Reiki that, you know, perhaps shift us away from that. Idea, right? Shift us more towards the idea that we're there to heal or to fix the thing that's wrong. Um, or we're there to achieve some sort of ascension or, you know, removal from that situation. Um, and there's just, there's such simplicity and such peace in working with these. This perspective. Again, it's not easy. Right? I mean, these are very fundamental emotional impulses that come through us, you know, that are rooted in our very real biological fear of death. Like, it's absolutely a real thing, right? Because our organism, you know, from the perspective of our, you know, of our, our oldest part of our brain is completely geared towards keeping us alive. Like that is, you know, essential to how we're wired. And so coming to a place of acceptance, you know, that we are going to die, this person we are with is in that phase of life. This other person that we're with is, is dealing with the aftermath of, of that stage of life is very counterintuitive. Like there, there's something inside of us that. That resists, right? That struggles with that. And so being in a practice that can soothe that part and can, you know, hold that part tenderly while opening to this larger framework, this larger perspective, this wider perspective that takes into account, you know, a longer arc of life and the interconnection of our, our life, our one tiny life with all of life and the, the enormity of that. Um, can that, can we let that slide? Soften us into a place of simply being present with whatever that situation is. And I am not saying that from the perspective of somebody who's got that all dialed in, right? like I am talking about things that I absolutely struggle with and there are moments. When I really am able to tap that place and be with somebody and really difficult things and do all of the things I just said in terms of holding that kind of space. And there's other times when I'm all activated and, you know, really that, that part of me that's fighting against it is really coming forward. Right. And so it's, you know, this is why this practice is a lifelong endeavor, right? Because there's, there's parts about our, you know, our, our precious humanity. that can cause us suffering because of the way that we can fixate on things that are fearful for us. Um, and there's parts of our humanity that are the medicine to that and that can bring freedom from that. And that's such a powerful and delightful and sometimes super frustrating paradox of our human mind and heart, right? That we have these competing commitments inside of ourselves, right? There's these competing. Perspectives and, you know, things that are important to us and ways of being, um, that, you know, it's, it's really quite amazing how that happens all on its own and at the same time, we also have a choice in how we engage those things and Reiki is a vehicle for coming to that choice, um, because we don't always know that we have that choice. It doesn't always feel that way. Our emotions absolutely can feel like they're uncontrollable. Um, so, yeah, so when it comes to really being present with somebody else, but ultimately also with ourselves, right? How are we going to be with ourself when that time is coming? close at hand, you know, can we hold space for ourself in that same way? Um, yes. And it's, it's a good idea to be in practice with these things well in advance of that moment so that we can, you know, have, have really, cued our system and, and refined our mindset and our focus in a way that allows for that calm and that peace and that openness, that acceptance, that realization that there's nothing to attain, um, in that moment. And I'm grateful for it because I, I think ultimately it is going to bring less suffering around things that are legitimately painful, right? I mean, it's, it is, it's right and good that there is an aspect of pain when working with death in all of these forms. Um, but that doesn't have to be suffering that comes from fighting against it. Like we were talking about last week with acceptance. Yeah, I love that. You know, shift in perspective. And I think, you know, for a long time I felt really hesitant and, um, challenged by, um, sitting with people in grief and death and dying because it brought up so many emotions in me. And when I felt those emotions and, um, sat with them, you know, realized that really ultimately for me to hold space for other people is that I need to be okay with death and dying for myself. And I need to have. gone through the necessary letting go to realize that yes, like this life is impermanent as much as I love it and much as I want it to continue on forever. It's not, it's going to change and transform. So I need to be okay with death and dying in order to really sit with people who are in that process. And so when I'm feeling like, you know, Um, you know, as an empath, somebody who feels a lot, you know, feeling the feelings of death probably are the heaviest and most tender that we can feel, right? Um, and so, um, You know, learning how to sit with that discomfort for myself and then being able to sit with others in that discomfort as well. And I think it's important while we're in that, those moments to be really mindful of what we're saying as well, because when people are in a place of grief and, um, or, you know, you know, in a life transition, in the midst of the ultimate life transition, You were very vulnerable and, uh, it's really important to just. speak kindness and love. And I think we all know that, right? But like when we come in and trying to say all the answers, like, you know, we're going to have a chariot of guides coming in and taking you off to the next dimension. And, you know, filling that person with, you know, maybe there's a, an altruistic feeling there, but do you really know that that's what's happening? You know, I don't know. And so being clear about, you know, You know, feeling what's in our hearts, um, and not trying to sugarcoat these emotions that are really painful and, you know, really have to be felt in order to heal, be healed. Um, I did a, a workshop once called, uh, Heal Your Death, and we did a death meditation, and we, it was this whole really intense cycle. And that's when I kind of realized that holding space for people, you know, in this quest of discovering the meaning first purpose of life and, and, uh, Willing space for death was just not for the faint of heart. It's like really hard. It's like the people who can do that, the death doulos out there, I am like such awe of your capacity to support people in those moments. Um, and I think Reiki is just an incredible tool that helps us and supports us as well. But, um, So just, I think, you know, for those listening, you know, remember that, uh, Michaela has that one full trauma informed course, make sure to take that course. Um, if you want to work with people in, you know, these really challenging times of their life. And, uh, we do need support in those moments in our life as well. And so it's also a real blessing to support people in those moments. Um, and I think we all have a lot to learn from each other. in those moments as well. Um, but you know, you're right, like there's no, there's no golden ticket. We really don't know what's, what the next transition, what is there after death. And so I think it is important not to, you know, fill our minds with hypotheses or, um, some thoughts. And that can actually link us back to some spiritual trauma, um, as well, like just, Um, I have somebody who, who always posts this meme, but it's like, um, from my, um, childhood in a, in a Christian household, we talked about how, you know, like, if you do this, you might die and go to hell and burn for all of eternity. And it's like, meme is like, More that I think about that, it's so weird that you'd say that to a child, you know? Like, and that, that was my upbringing, and so I think a lot of times, um, yeah, just remembering how, how we need to be really tender to ourself, um. Children, uh, who are also, you know, trying to grasp out death and dying, my four year old that's been asking me more and more questions about it. Um, so, so I'd love to turn it back to you all. Any other final thoughts before we wrap this one up? You know, we all die, right? I think that's sort of, um, That's the thing. I used to, you know, I've had lots and lots of animals, right? That means that I've had lots of deaths as well. And I always thought that was actually really good for my kid, Carrie, because, you know, it's that thing from a young age that they have to understand that things do keep shifting, changing, and part of that is death. Um, and I'm sure it's helped me as well. It's just those things that we learn to, in some sense, come to terms with the fact that. That's something someone can be here and then they can be gone. So that's a very, uh, uh, in fact, a very natural part of our existence and life. And it would be great if we could find more peace in those moments. Uh, For ourselves, if we're with someone who's dying because it supports that person, uh, and also for the person who is dying to find peace and, and to leave this world in a, in a comfortable way, rather than one that actually just reminds me, I had a rabbit once who died. This is, uh, a long time ago. And I remember ringing the vet and doing all these things as the rabbit was dying. And afterwards, all I wished is that I'd actually been there with the rabbit. rather than trying to do something that wasn't going to do anything and really just being peacefully, calmly there with that little being and, and, and help them to, to find some peace in the, in that moment. And, uh, that was an excellent lesson for me, for sure. Uh, so, you know, bringing peace to someone who's dying. I think we can do that with the system of Reiki as we learn resilience and, and we learn how to move into that space for ourselves and for others. I think that's such an important perspective and, you know, and something that you said Carrie, I wanted to just kind of highlight for my close that there, there's great value in being at peace and whatever it is, each of us believes about what happens next, what happens after death, what, you know, what happens to the, to the spirit, all of those things, you know, we, we come to our own conclusions through whatever path about those things and, um, You know, having a place of respect and honoring for what each person believes is really important. I mean, most religions of the world, you know, at least part of their important function is helping to give an answer to that question of what happens and there is certainly, you know, a lot of sense of security and peace and having a pathway that tells you this is what happens. Um, and, you know, one of the things that I've. Really, you know, learned is how to better make room for all of those different perspectives, you know, some of which are greatly in contradiction to each other. Um, at the same time, you know, when we project our beliefs about what happens onto other people, there can be this constriction, like you were saying, the, You know, in, you know, telling people that what, that they're, that awful things are going to happen to them in the afterlife, um, when that might not be part of their belief system can be really damaging and, you know, coming back to this idea, Bronwen of, of, can we be fully present in the moment, whatever it is that we believe, or the other person believes about what's going to happen in the next moment, you know, can we really be there? And, you know, that story is so poignant. I, I also had a, had a rabbit, And, and, and did choose to just be, be with her and, you know, not effort. And it was, you know, very difficult. It was kind of a dramatic passing, but, um, you know, it felt good to be able to kind of just be in that presence. And in that moment, it doesn't matter what's going to happen next. It doesn't matter what I believe about it. What the other person believes about it. What's actually true about it, you know, because that moment is what we have and it's what matters. And if we can really embody that perspective, then we can be We can be pretty savvy navigators of these challenging moments in life, um, from all of the perspectives that we're likely to encounter them, um, over the course of our lifetime. So yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to kind of unpack some of those things in today's conversation. Yes. Well, thank you so much to our listeners for sitting with us and exploring this topic. We hope that some of this is really useful for you. And if you are going through a cycle of death and dying, we share our love for you, our peace to you, our light to you. We'd love to hear your experiences with the system of Reiki and death and dying. So please feel free to share them with us in the comments or send this episode on to somebody who could use it. So friends, we so appreciate, um, sitting with you and having these difficult conversations and, uh, hope that this one brings some joy and, um, lightness into something that is challenging and hard. And we look forward to talking with you in a future episode down the road. Bye.