Double AA club Podcast
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Double AA club Podcast
EP: 92 Legendary Origins and Behind-the-Scenes Drama: The Realities of Independent Wrestling
Ever wondered how wrestling legends are made? Join us on this thrilling episode of the Double A Club as we sit down with independent wrestling veterans Antonio Rivera and Camacho. Listen as Rivera recounts his journey from the training mats of Camp IWF in West Patterson in 2003 and Camacho reflects on his gritty beginnings at the Dog House in Brooklyn during the late 90s. Together, they share the real challenges they faced in mastering wrestling psychology and evolving from singles to tag team matches. Rivera even gives us a sneak peek into how his innovative ideas helped shape mainstream teams like LAX in TNA. This is an episode you won't want to miss if you're passionate about the artistry and evolution of wrestling.
But it's not all glory and triumph. In the second half of the episode, Rivera and Camacho open up about the frustrations and complexities that come with tag team wrestling. They discuss the importance of mutual respect, camaraderie, and believable storytelling, and vent their dissatisfaction with certain match types like intergender bouts. We also dive deep into the cyclical nature of loyalty and frustration in the wrestling world, where wrestlers find themselves repeatedly leaving and returning to the same promotions. This insightful conversation offers a raw look at the wrestling industry's inner workings, making it a must-listen for any wrestling enthusiast.
You are listening to the Double A Club and this is your host, ny Boom, and my co-host, big Daz. We'll be talking about trending topics and healthcare and basically just as a disclaimer just to let the listeners know that this is just basically on our opinions and speculations and I hope you guys enjoy the show. Let's start off and kick off with our first topic.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone. This is Double A Club. Nyc Boom in the house. I got two special guests with me.
Speaker 3:Introduce yourselves, yo, what's up? My name is Antonio Rivera.
Speaker 2:And you are, and this is Antonio Rivera, and you are, and this is Camacho. Yeah, and Rivera, let's start off with you because you're the more seasoned person. Both of you guys are from the independent circuits and you, Rivera, started off. Do you recall what year you started?
Speaker 3:it was shot in 2003.
Speaker 2:I like that time okay, and what made you pick independent?
Speaker 3:Well, I was always a typical fan, you know, and I was looking for a place and I found it at Camp IWF in West Patterson. I just headed over there and I started training.
Speaker 2:Nice and you Camacho. How did you I mean, when did you start and how did you get into it? How did you find the school?
Speaker 4:also, Well, I started. I'm a little older than you guys, so my journey was a little bit different. There was a school in Brooklyn called the Dog House in the late 90s, so I was able to train there until it closed down.
Speaker 4:The school lasted maybe a year or two, um so you had previous training I was trained previously with the basics, the simple, you know the, the chain wrestling and the bump in and the. You know that's pretty much it chaining and bumping. Um, and I had, you know, they had a student show once at the elks Lodge in Queens, so that was pretty cool. I had like a three-minute match that was turned into two minutes and it lasted like 30 seconds. And then you know the school kind of well.
Speaker 4:The school didn't last very long, like most schools back then. It's not like now where you know you throw a rock you'll hit a school. It was really difficult to get in. I had to, you know, find somebody who knew somebody in the business to show me that school was going to open. I didn't even last long. So then, years later, um, when you guys met me at um I guess what, 2000, what was it? Six, five, six, when I found the school that we, we all met and a friend of mine that was living in that town discovered that school and we got in together. He didn't last very long, but I maintained and I stayed.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool and Rivera, you started off at Singles and explain how your experience was doing Singles matches and explain how your experience was doing singles matches In the beginning. You mean yes, in the beginning. We're going to work our way from the beginning and then work to more present times.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, you know, being a student, I did not understand psychology right, like you know, like many of us don't. In the beginning it took me a real long time to, you know, to learn that stuff. So it was really really hard for me. You know, from that perspective, you know I wasn't had good matches and stuff like that. So I always, like, I started getting uh, I started getting better when I was with other people. Like you know, whether it was tag team matches and six six men, and you know rumbles and stuff like that. You know whether it was tag team matches and singles six men and you know rumbles and stuff like that. You know it just it's easier. So singles was working too well for me in the beginning. So you know, so that's that.
Speaker 2:And Camacho. You predominantly have always kind of done singles. You did a little bit of tag team. How did the single start off for you in the beginning?
Speaker 4:it's like rivera said man, the, the psychology of it you don't really get to like the years later. Like that you're fully comfortable with it. Um, you're basically just trying to remember, um, what, what, not what to do with the other person called, or what you want to do, and just not hurt yourself or hurt the other person at the same time, and you just try not to. You really just try not to mess up and um, so I'm more concerned and more nervous about that than memory. Then I guess that's why you don't get the psychology to later, because you're so consumed with not messing up. So that's kind of what happened with me in the beginning.
Speaker 4:But then you know, the best thing that happened to me was they put me in attack, started putting me in tag team matches because you really had to. Like it's still, you're still just as nervous, but you do have a chance to kind of breathe a little bit on the apron while you're. You're doing your job as a tag team Partner. You're just not sitting on the apron doing nothing, but you do have a chance to kind of observe a little bit of what's going on with whoever's in the ring while you're watching. Then, when it's your turn to get in. You can kind of apply it. So yeah, singles was a little bit. It's always difficult for some. I don't know. I think to me the best place to put somebody's in a tag team so they can learn, then they could transition to singles.
Speaker 3:That Must be easier than the other way around, at least for me it was so.
Speaker 2:So for both of you guys, I mean, it started clicking when you started your tag team journey.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, right Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say so, yeah, okay. And going back to you, rivera, you was in one of the greatest independent tag teams of all time. I mean they were so good that LAX and TNA stole their whole idea and gimmick. I mean your tag team was like in the cusp of revolutionizing Latin wrestling between all Latin countries and you had this incredible tag team partner.
Speaker 4:Remember, don't say his name though.
Speaker 2:So you had this incredible tag team partner Remember don't say his name, though so you had this incredible tag team partner. Would you say that when you were tag teaming with this independent phenom is when you started clicking and getting psychology? Jesus?
Speaker 3:his arm hurts. You're finished putting yourself over. His arm hurts.
Speaker 4:You're putting yourself over. Your audience might be like who is he talking about? Who is this guy? Oh, it's him.
Speaker 3:But he is right, if they start clicking for me, me it's not a click. Wait, wait, wait, I am right.
Speaker 4:Well, let him finish. He's not right about the greatness. He just said, I'm right.
Speaker 2:That's it. I was right. He was right that I was one of the greatest phenoms. Keep going, you're starting off good. You remember Well, well.
Speaker 3:For me remember well, I know things. This for me I started teaming up with you but, yes, you know you were, you know you were more advanced and stuff like that and and you did take me under your wing and you started teaching me things that that I was very confused about and and the patience that you have with me, stuff like that. I thought they appreciate it. But yeah, no, you know, eventually, you know, things started clicking in and I thought of learning the psychology properly and you know, like you know, it's like it was, it was a good you was, it was a good teacher.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you Appreciate that, Let him speak.
Speaker 4:Macho, you hear that that's his head getting bigger. I can hear the head getting.
Speaker 2:Let him speak. He's talking, bro. Let him speak.
Speaker 3:He's going to cut my mic. Nobody's cutting your mic, bro.
Speaker 4:I think Tori's just cutting your mic. The compliments.
Speaker 2:He's doing it to himself. Man On a real tip. When we were tag teaming Rivera, what was it that I did to excel you and propel you to a different level from where you started off?
Speaker 3:Okay, well, we started hanging out outside the school right. So now we got to know each other more. You were also training me at the gym and stuff like that. So you know, the outside stuff that we were doing outside the school was very beneficial for me because I was getting confidence, you know. So I didn't have to doubt myself when I was in the ring or, you know, wrestling against other people and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So the bond that we created helped you with your confidence and you know I always had your back anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So with you, Camacho, when you was tag teaming right Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:I didn't hear the rest of the question. I'm sorry. Was there more to that question? Or you just asked me about tag teams?
Speaker 2:So yeah, can you hear?
Speaker 4:me. Yeah, I lost you for a little bit. I'm sorry. What was the question?
Speaker 2:So the question was you said that it clicked for you when it was tag team, right. So was it what match or maybe a rivalry that you had that it was, that it clicked for you? Like that's like, oh shit, I'm getting it now.
Speaker 4:Well, it's interesting, you brought that up and I'm sure there was a purpose for this to put this up over again. Well, wait a minute, I don brought that up and I'm sure there was a purpose for this to put this up over again. I did have a good time with Shane O'Brien. After I once I hit him once, he got along very well, but that's another. Well, I'm sure we'll get to that later.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but um, yeah, once I got put in a tag team, they put me in a tag team with Mike Dernan God bless the dead. Yeah, he was, he was, he had, he was younger than me, he had the, the, the um, that, that fire that I didn't really have as a babyface through a babyface team. They threw us together be being the Puerto Rican guy, him being the white guy. It was just but the, you know, I don't even think that was a. They never made that into like an angle a, the Puerto Rican, a white guy, like some people do that. But that that wasn't a thing with us. They just threw two guys together.
Speaker 4:I think they didn't really know what to do with us separately, so they just threw us together and we just turned out to be perfect for each other. He had the right amount of fire, he had the right amount of fire and I had the right amount of like. I looked like the team leader because I was older, or just the way I presented myself More close. Yeah, yeah, I would say so. So then you know. So we just needed somebody to be in a rivalry with. And yeah, you guys were Latin Revolution, probably the top heel team in the company at the time. I think you guys were champions at the time, am I correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And then we became top tag team in the independent circuit, right, but let's Multiple tag teams in multiple federations. You're fast-forwarding, okay? Yes, I am Sorry.
Speaker 4:But the truth is yes, once we were able to team with each other then being, when I say team with you guys, we were basically married. We were in a program with you guys, a storyline, and it was the hunt for your championship we had a manager that turned on us and got with you guys Eloy. This is the good times. Let's talk about the good stuff. But that was a good element because you know, that added to our feud, like he turned on us and got with you guys and he was kind of perfect for you guys. At the time. He was a good good you needed, it was really good. You needed somebody to carry your flags for you. So the time he was a good good, you needed, it was really good. You needed somebody to carry your flags for you, so to speak. So that was and I don't mean that as an insult- to him.
Speaker 4:It was a good package that you guys had. You guys were a group.
Speaker 2:He accepted that job and he loved the job. He knew his role and that was it. He talked on the mic every now and then. He was pretty good, but he had a flair to it without doing anything. That's what it was, right.
Speaker 4:And because he accepted it, so he embraced it so well, he did a great job as your manager or whatever, that third guy. So that worked out very well and it gave us something more of an uphill battle to climb when, when it came down to facing you guys. So, but, um, the fact that you guys were so good with the psychology together and we were a new team so we had to learn ourselves how to you know. But that, that feud and I would say I learned more tag team psychology in that feud than anything I did before that and I carried whatever I learned in that feud forever with me like that. That's when it really clicked. Like Rivera said, it's funny how that just works out. Like I just you know, you take those lessons with you forever and that was a great. That's one of my favorite moments in my wrestling career feuding, especially in that company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool, and you know what's weird is like a lot of people don moments in my wrestling career, especially in that company. Yeah, that's cool, and you know what's weird is like a lot of people don't look at it like this. When they talk about singles and tag teams, they always kind of look at it separately. But one of the things I always told Rivera when we were partnering up right, it's a singles match. There's two people Look at it as a singles match. It's a singles match. You get tagged in. It's a singles match. You tag me in. It's a singles match. It's not a tag match, it's a singles match. So get it like that and that tag. Like you said that most people who start should start in tag teams because you learn the singles aspect in a shorter bracket, short of time, right, every time we're playing, so it's easier to choose, absorb. Oh, yeah, so yeah, oh, we already. You know you already answered my next question, so so what was the question?
Speaker 2:My question was I was going to ask you like, what was it about that match that really, like you know, got to you and made you think, like shit, I've been doing it all wrong. This is how it should be done yeah, gotcha, or not say that you was doing it wrong, but I could do it better because of this, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, and I will add this to my answer it did help because, like when you guys, like Rivera said before, when you guys started hanging out and started, you know, really connecting as friends, it helped the tag team. So in turn, it helped that you guys, mike, and I Mike, mike duran and myself liked you guys a lot, like we thought you guys were. So, you know, you guys were great, you guys were very nice to us. Uh, not everybody in that place was very nice and um, but you guys you got. It really does help a match when everybody likes each other, you do more for each other and and that that I think you guys did that with us and we definitely, you know, reciprocated yeah, it's so strange.
Speaker 2:Did you say that? Because there was so many people in that school who pretended they liked us? They only go inside room and they always come in there, joke with us, fuck with us, try to drink our rum or Tito's vodka, your soda, our beverages. You know saying man, and then leave the room and start talking shit about us. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:like, don't talk shit about you yep out of two faces so in your time at IWF, was there a moment where you was like yo, this is bullshit, like I'm involved in this, this is bullshit like I'm involved in this fucked up match or I'm or I'm involved with this fucking stiff motherfucker. Like. For me it was Shane O'Brien, you know what I'm saying? Like what, what was the moment in IWF that made you like second guess continuing to go there, or maybe something that was about to second guess you from continuing us? Is for me or for rivera for both.
Speaker 4:Okay, go ahead. Rivera wants to handle that first.
Speaker 3:Uh, he's been quiet well, well, for me, um, all right, so, so, like, so, like, going back to like the singles. You know, although we were together, you know, as lamb revolution, we were having singles matches as well, okay, and I was, I was having great matches with, you know, with certain people like. You know, like Tommy, trouble with certain people like Tommy, trouble, dangerous Dan, chris Taylor and stuff like that. The main thing that I started becoming unhappy was doing these intergender matches, and I hate those, I despise those to this day. I just didn't want to be part of that anymore. You know, like, like it's not, it's not because of the of the females that I was, you know that I was going against, it's just, it's not that, it's just that I just don't like intergender matches, you know.
Speaker 3:So I felt like, I felt Like, okay, you know, rivera, you know, let's put him with you know, with this female or whatever. And then you know, like you know somebody else, like would save you TT. You know, in your singles matches and I used to be like, wait a minute, like, but I'm his partner, like I should like I should have a minute, like, but I'm his partner, like I should like, like I should have his back. You know. You know what I'm saying. Like what, like they have another person, uh, you know, like, try like fight for TT. You know, like I thought that was kind of weird.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying, yeah, that was during the time when they were pushing me for the heavyweight, right, yeah, yeah, and the chicken wanted to put himself in the story line, right, right, yeah, I got you and going with the intergender matches. I mean there's a place for it. You know what I'm saying, but I mean the way they were doing the intergender matches with you. It was literally almost every show and I think that's too much. It takes away from wrestling and it just it's not believable. I'm saying how am I still fighting this chick every week, every month, and she's still walking, right, yeah. You're saying I don't care how tough she is, it wasn't. You know, the girls that we had weren't big girls, big, muscular girls, they were just regular, global-sized girls. So how is that? How does that make sense? You're going against a 180-pound, 5'9", 5'10" guy.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the. You know, of the events, different matches, you know I Mean some people like it, you know, and and it's like you said, like there was a place for it, but you know I'm not a fan at all, not all the time.
Speaker 2:Not all the time. Yeah, and they were doing it all the time to you like it, I know I think it was like I think there was a period when you was having nothing but intergender matches for six months. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what? Saying like that? That's bullshit, that's too much, that's just that's our idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I kind of thought. I kind of felt like like like it was a you know watering down our Revolution unit, you know watering down our revolution unit, you know. So that's kind of weird about you know, just about being there, gotcha, and what about you, camacho?
Speaker 4:Yeah, actually me witnessing all that was the beginning Like it. It wasn't like one. Well, it was one thing. There was a straw, um, that broke the camel's back, so to speak, but it was like that kind of stuff, the obvious. You know, why is he doing a run-in to save torres when rivera is right next to me in the locker room, like why isn't he doing it? You know what I mean, that that that was a clear indication of you know, I guess, doing the Dusty Rhodes, when you get a hot baby face which you were a hot baby face singles guy at the time and you know, then just getting that rub off you, so to speak. You know, put him instead of Rivera, which would be the obvious. Why isn't Rivera helping him? Like that kind of stuff. And then just the ranting, the ridiculous ranting that he would do if he was in a bad mood. No one had to have fun If it was. You know what I mean. God forbid we do another show somewhere else. God forbid we do a show somewhere else. And you know he's criticizing the show. We're not supposed to do that. But meanwhile, you know, like you know, that's what we do. This is what we were training for to do. You know, shows everywhere else. And Then did.
Speaker 4:The final straw for me was basically when, um, you know, he pulled the, um, the, the, the Thing with Mike Dernan and myself when we had a match and they changed the, the finish on us. Oh, they didn't change the finish on us, they just changed the, the way the match was supposed to go. We were supposed to have a competitive match and and Kevin had a thing up his ass for Mike Dernan, more for Mike than me, because Mike really, for some reason you know, wasn't going to practice, I don't know. He just came up with some stupid excuse to not like somebody or to have something to put somebody on the. What is it called? The shit list, or whatever the fuck he had. That you know, you know. But instead of talking to us, saying, guys, we need you to do this, we want you to step up, I need Mike Dernan to be him more.
Speaker 4:You know, I said of that concept, he just took it out on you and told the team, the other team, to just change everything and just do. He wanted more of a squash match than a competitive match. And then he just, you know that kind of stuff. And there was an incident in the locker room where, like he tried to get in my face and I kind of yelled back at him and this and that and, and Mike had walked out, and then I just stayed to the end to see if you know, kevin would, at least you know, put me to the side and apologize. I gave him a chance to like at least let's have a conversation. He never did that so I said, okay, who I can't trust.
Speaker 2:So wait up, I wasn't there for this. What happened? You weren't there. I don't think so, because you mentioned that I don't recall. I don't remember you and Kevin Knight almost getting into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I had. And when I spoke to Kareem, right Wes, yeah, he had an incident with Kevin and I don't remember that I must have been gone. I must have been doing WLW and all that other shit. What happened with you and him?
Speaker 4:Well, that thing that happened, that was basically during the show. You might have been in the ring. I don't know if you were. I don't remember if you were. You know, I don't remember. I don't remember if, um, now you sound like Rivera. If you were, I don't remember. I don't remember if you were there. You know, I don't know you being there. That's a good point. I know Rivera was there. Um, were you there, rivera, you asking him? I know bad, bad question, I don't remember. Was I there?
Speaker 2:I think he was there.
Speaker 4:He was probably wrestling Jenna. He was probably wrestling Jenna. He's like you know what. I don't want to remember any of this shit, so it's all a blur, but it was one of those like we were starting out the show early defending the belts and we were losing the belts to these guys and then we were trying to plan out a match and they were really like like okay, they were like listening to us but not really like just being vague, and I'm like what's going on? Like what's was you know? And then we go in there and they do their own and turns out kevin had instructed them to do that to to change the match on us. Um, and then I kind of like you were there for that right now, and then I kind of like you were there for that, right, yup yup, yup, yo Rivera was.
Speaker 3:I there yeah, yeah, you were there, but you was busy drinking Bacardi and Coke. Yeah, you were drunk.
Speaker 4:I don't remember, bro, I was pre-gaming so you guys were kind of intoxicated, having a good time and I'm over here I don't remember, bro, okay, look at that, I was pre-gaming. So you guys were kind of intoxicated, having a good time and I'm over here fucking going through this fucking emotional shit and getting pissed. And it wasn't a very long thing, it was one. He got in my face. I told him to get the fuck out of my face and then he walked away and he got out of my face, said and and and you know, cause he's tall, he thinks he's big, but he's not. He's just a tall guy. Um, and, and I'm not. You know, I'm sorry, I'm not O'Brien, I'm not going to just fucking run away from you, or just, you know, walk away and let you throw worker punches at me and then, you know, act like I'm a bitch. Um, you know you're gonna sell. I'll stay, yeah, I'll stay.
Speaker 4:And I stayed and watched the rest of the show. I watched the show just to see what would happen. And he never, you know, he never approached me. For the rest of the night I said bye to everybody and everybody there. I remember Steeler even saying I know you're not gonna be here again. I'm sorry, I wish you wouldn't leave, but I know you're not gonna leave. I know you're gonna go and I know you're not going to leave. I know you're going to go and I wish you wouldn't. But I understand and other people doing the same thing with me, and you know I never came back.
Speaker 4:I emailed Kevin explaining to myself as to why I didn't like what he did. I didn't like what he did afterwards, or his lack of you know, conversing with me afterwards. You know, we're all adults here, bro, and I think Kevin and I are almost the same age. Kevin and I are almost the same age. We're not in our early 20s, you know what I'm saying. We're in our 30s at this point.
Speaker 4:But he's me, I have, you know, I'm an adult, with a job, with a wife and fucking responsibilities, and he lives with his parents. So he doesn't fucking have any responsibilities. He doesn't know what it is to be at least you know at the time what it is to be an adult. So he never really, I guess, felt the need to do that, um, to step up and be a man and say, listen, I apologize for what I did. And maybe he would do that in spurts, but you know, then he would just turn around and be who he is and yeah, so that that was my last day there. I just I don't need you to, you know. You know, fool me once you know I'm out, I don't need to come back. That place did have a revolving door. I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit of people that would leave and then come back, get pissed, leave and come back. Get pissed, leave and come back.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Double A Club. Listen to us next episode to continue this topic. If you want to reach us on the email, it is doubleaclubpodcast at gmailcom.
