E48 Kevin Finn - Career Crossroads and Signposts: There’s no time to F@#% about!

“Seniority doesn't win, experience does” - Kevin Finn

This month’s theme

This month we discuss the significance of identifying crossroads within our careers or organisations. In each episode, we explore the pivotal moments where decisions shape our professional trajectories, and strategies for navigating challenges and change as an employee or a leader. 

From career transitions and industry shifts to leadership changes and organisational restructuring, we unpack practical strategies, share success stories, and empower listeners to embrace challenges and change as a catalyst for growth and innovation.

In this episode you’ll hear about

• Ways to identify a crossroads in your career 
• Reflecting on whether a company’s culture aligns with your values
• How business leaders can create the conditions for successful transformation and change within their organisation
• How to foster buy-in and collaboration from the wider team to drive organisational change forward
• Ways for employees to have constructive conversations with their leadership team during periods  of change

Key links

Company Road 

NO/BS

Nick Berman’s Episode 31 

Kevin’s latest venture: Crossroads 

Jim Antonopolous 

Berlin Liew’s Episode 44 

About our guest

Kevin Finn is a brand expert, author, internationally recognised branding designer and TEDx speaker. His personal belief is: There is wisdom in learning.

With 30 years experience, Kevin began his career in Dublin at the design studio that has created all of U2’s album covers. Following this, for seven years he was Joint-Creative Director of Saatchi Design, Sydney, part of the Saatchi & Saatchi global network. Between 2003 and 2018 he explored the intersection of design with social, cultural, political and economic issues through his independent self published design journal, Open Manifesto. His book ‘Brand Principles: How to be a 21st Century Brand’ was published in 2022. In 2007, he founded his independent design practice TheSumOf.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-finn-3aa8a33/ 

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of Company Road, helping businesses and leaders find meaning, impact and positivity.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hudson-7464254/ 

For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:07

Okay. Hey there everyone. And a massive welcome to the company road podcast. So in today's episode, it's going to be an important one because we're going to explore not just the future of business and the role we need to play, but also the decisions we're going to have to make in some way or another. And it feels true that our own success as we would define it, it's determined by opportunities, but also by the choices that we make. And I want to introduce Kevin Finn, who's the next brilliant guest that we've got on the show. Who's a brand expert author, internationally recognized branding designer, TEDx speaker. And Kevin, you talk about this personal belief of there is wisdom in learning as well. And you come from, a really interesting background from the point of view of starting out in a design studio where you were designing album covers for U2 and moving to Saatchi and Saatchi after that you started your own brand consultancy. You've done many things in your career so far, and you've taken many critical choices along the way. So Kevin, a huge and very warm welcome to the show. And I'm really excited about where we might take this chat.

Kevin: 1:08

Great to be here.

Chris Hudson: 1:09

Thanks. So Kevin, let's kick into it. I think in the spirit of vulnerability, which seems to be a popular word at the moment, I wanted to share a story with you and the listeners about how we met. Because it does bring together some of these topics of choices, learning. And wisdom and, rewinding to about a year ago, I'd been up and running with my consultancy Company Road for about nine months or so. And I'd had some pretty high, pretty big highs and some pretty big lows during that time, it's pretty fair to say. And some amazing clients have come on board. We've done some cool stuff. It was starting to take shape, but obviously there was some massive lows. There are periods without work. There's a lot of endless social media scrolling and figuring out of LinkedIn. Bottomless coffees, as is the thing in Melbourne, and then you're just kind of wondering where you are sometimes. So in that moment Kevin, I'd seen you talk about branding and your own personal story at the NO/BS conference in Melbourne previously, and you're talking actually after that in another interview with one of my good friends, Nick Berman and he was just sort of opening the chats and you have a very, very sort of authentic chat between one another. Nick, actually the side side thing, but Nick was in one of the previous episodes, episode 31 of this podcast all around the mindful intrapreneur and. It was called lessons in primal screaming monkey brains and 10 days of silence. So that's another episode. You have a, listen to that if you haven't it's a pretty one but yeah, he just come back from a silent retreat and he he then came on to an interview after that Which is really cool. But but anyway getting distracted on that day that we caught up kevin. We, we started talking about this concept of life's crossroads and it just immediately resonated because in that moment I was, I was really feeling quite unsure about what I was doing. I felt like I was constantly doubting myself and I couldn't really see past a lot of the disappointments, even though looking back. I had. There were a lot of wins under the belt and there were a lot of opportunities and lots to be grateful for, but I'd launched the business and I was living the life that I dreamed of, but actually, I felt still trapped in some way. And Kevin, your, your perspective on crossroads and opportunities is interesting and one that we'll explore in today's conversation. But, when we first met, we had one of those really deep chats and I feel for a first meeting having a chat that deep says a lot about your skillset personally around empathy and around understanding of other people and how to facilitate and lead conversation and, moving beyond sort of the everyday chats that people have within business into a deeper kind of realm and Yeah, through that chat, you've really helped me realize my self worth and you gave me a huge confidence boost. So I just want to say once again, massive thank you to you for that chat and for, yeah, for just being there in that exact moment, because since then it's, it's really helped me along. And yeah, it was brilliant. So, so for many of our listeners,

Kevin: 3:55

that's wonderful to hear. I didn't realize it was that impactful. So

Chris Hudson: 3:58

Oh, yeah. I mean, like I say, when you, when you have lots of conversations and you run your own business, the good ones really stand out and they make such a, such an impact. So thank you. Many of our listeners who reckon that, we're in a period now where the whole industry is, is about to turbocharge, there's acceleration, AI adoption is just, just kicking in. It's going mainstream and people are wondering for one, how to navigate that, but also where they sit in relation to that. And I think that, navigating. Your day to day career, from an intrapreneur's point of view is, is going to be harder because there are going to be more choices and more moments where you're going to think, okay, well, where am I in relation to that? And what am I, what am I doing here essentially is the simple question. But Kevin, let's, let's just unpack some of that. I'd love to just start with, with you, your story and maybe your interest in exploring crossroads. And then we'll get into a bit of a chat around a few things.

Kevin: 4:53

Well, from a personal point of view, I guess one of the things that resonated with me, not just because of the current situation that we're in as an industry and As a community of individuals who perhaps are at these crossroads over my career, I've been at multiple crossroads as well. I just didn't identify them as that. what I kind of define as a crossroad is either a, I'm in a groove and comfort zone and I need something to change because I have a fear that it's going to be a treadmill. I have a fear that life's just gonna, get formulaic and templated and dull and boring. And there's no challenge in that. That's one option or the other option is something's happened that I, that I need to make a change. I need to react to for some people that could be a move, physical move for some people, it could be, they were made redundant for some people it could be that they were unwell for some people, it could be that they set up their own business and they're like, how does that work? And for some people it could be. These external challenges to the industry, like AI and, and if we're honest, oversaturation in some cases of the influx of people in the space.

Chris Hudson: 5:56

Mm.

Kevin: 5:57

So, that's kind of my. Interest, in crossroads and the way I'd previously described it was I, I, if I track back my career, I've taken a series of what I would call considered risks to make a choice and say, I'll do this over that. So that, that's kind of the background of where the whole crossroads idea has come from, but then. In multiple conversations like you and I um, a year ago and multiple other conversations I've had with peers and and I'm not saying it's an age thing or a maturity thing in previous years, that might've been the case. You get to a certain stage in your career and you need to make some choices. But what we're seeing and what I'm seeing conversations and I think it's at multiple tiers, multiple age, multiple generations where. Individuals are saying I'm at a crossroads that I need to make a choice and I'm not sure which way to go. And that's overwhelming and that's scary. And I think there's a lot to be gained from knowing that you're not on your own in that situation. There's a lot to be said that in that crossroads, when you make a decision, you're still going to come to another crossroads. So the idea is less about What do I do at a crossroads and more about how do I manage crossroads? How do I manage those big decisions in my career in my life? And that's sort of where I've kind of gravitated to in terms of this series of workshops that Jim Antonopoulos and I are going to be putting together called Crossroads, particularly because we're both hearing this right across the board in our field.

Chris Hudson: 7:29

I mean, it also sounds, I mean, as a concept it's kind of cool sounding, could be an album name or something in itself. But, I feel like, like with anything, the first step is to almost name it and acknowledge it for what it is. And I think that. If, if you feel confusion or overwhelm, sometimes you can name that, but you can't name the fact that it's actually a junction or, you can't situate it in a, in a moment where you feel like there are many choices in front of you that, that could present that, that can be hard. I wonder like from, from your experience and your conversations that you've had. How do people typically explore and, arrive at a crossroads in, in the work context from some of the stories you're hearing? Are they, Are they, seeing the end point or are they seeing the first turn as being like the big thing to consider?

Kevin: 8:19

I think from the conversations that I've been having, I think what they're seeing first and probably more so, which is why they can't get past it, is the challenge, the problem. Some of those people are saying, I feel like I'm working in a factory, churning out stuff. That's meaningless, really, and some people are saying I'm working in a, in a, in a business or a studio or an agency where we're working on projects that I have an ethical issue with, and I need to want to have to get into another sector that is more purpose led or impact led, and I don't know how to do that. First of all, I don't know what that looks like. I'm just very conscious of the fact I'm not happy where I am because of that. Some people are fatigued, whether they're in the industry for a decade or two or three, they just feel like, man, I just need to do, you know, and then some are saying that I'm. Concern like with AI, how do I navigate that? How do I ensure that I'm not irrelevant? How do I, manage my future pathway when we're not only competing anymore with our peers as competition for jobs and roles and projects, but now we could just really be more than ever competing with technology. So there's a, quite a range, but you'll see the pattern there is that they're not necessarily seeing. Options beyond that, and they're stuck in the problem that this is, this is what I'm facing. And a lot of that I think comes down to, it's not like an imposter syndrome thing. It's more, it's just a genuine confidence. To, to, to be able to step back and objectively say, how do I pull this apart? How do I make a a series of objective decisions that will get me out from underneath this? And literally what are the options on the table? I find a lot of people either don't have the confidence, the language, the frameworks, or the bandwidth to do that because they're caught up in what the challenge is.

Chris Hudson: 10:21

And this, you mentioned it briefly just before, but this concept of calculated risks. So the ones that you've made in your career did they always pay off or did you find that the risks led to other crossroads that then led you back to the right path? Yeah.

Kevin: 10:36

And there's no guarantee, right. But I'll give you one, crossroads which is a big one in, in, in my life and in my career. I was working as the joint creative director of Saatchi design in Sydney, part of the Saatchi and Saatchi global advertising network. And I was probably my fifth year there. Maybe sixth and I felt that I'd filled that box. I didn't quite know what was next. So I came to a crossroads where I was like, gee, I don't know who else I would work with in, in Sydney as a studio or an agency, I don't have the confidence to set up my own business. And also I remember saying this to myself, I need something radical to happen to get me out of this crossroads I'm in. And I wouldn't recommend anyone to sort of go outside, look at the sky and ask the universe for some intervention. But I had kind of done that in my own way. And a couple, literally three things. Three weeks later, my now wife said that she was going to take a job or if he's going to go for an interview in Kununurra. And I thought that was like a suburb in Melbourne. I was, I'm Irish. I was Kununurra and then I found out it was in the top end of Western Australia. And it was a 10 hour flight from Sydney to a town of four and a half thousand people with the next nearest urban hub, a one hour flight in either direction. Broom in one way and Darwin on the other way. And I remember clearly just, saying to myself in the universe, I mean, really, I know I said radical, but really that's, that's crazy. But I said, I want her to support my, my wife and her decision to go there. And I thought, look, I'll go. It'll be interesting. It'll be a learning curve. I'll see how it, how it goes. And she said to me what if you, what if you can't get any clients? What if you can't get any work? What if it doesn't work? Now this isn't a sort of, um, Glass half full, three quarters full, always full mentality. This isn't a manifestation sort of process. This is a very practical response that I do in every situation. And I say, then I say, say now, when she said to me, what if it doesn't work? My response is, well, let's make it work. Now what's good about that is it doesn't define what that looks like. It defines the attitude and the mindset going into it. It defines the openness and the willingness to accommodate whatever that new situation is bringing. And that's something that I think is where I believe the first step in, in taking a considered risk or a crossroads is, is to say, I'm committing to it. And I'm going to allow whatever is happening there to happen. I can't control it, but I can control how I respond to it. I can control my willingness. Some might call it grit. Some might call it persistence or stubbornness. Some might call it pure luck, but it's the mindset to say, what are the opportunities that are going to come out with, I need to be aware. And, and I guess super observant of what opportunities are coming. Versus, this is the way I've done it in Sydney, and if I can't do it in Kununurra or wherever, then that's a problem, because it's going to be different, and I have found that with each of those crossroads that I've taken leaving an amazing situation to an unknown, or moving from a difficult situation to a hopefully better one, but still an unknown. I've found that that mindset and that willingness to say, I'm going to make it work, not whatever it takes, make it work. Just, I'm going to make it work in the context of where I am. And I'm not going to define what that success looks like. I'm just going to see that's, that's kind of how I've approached those. And they've always opened up new doors, always giving me new experiences, always giving me things that I would never have gotten. Have I not taken that move?

Chris Hudson: 14:37

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I mean, there's there's a lot in that. I think there's, there's, something around sitting with ambiguity a little bit and, and just seeing what, what presents itself really. I feel the stargazing aspects of, waiting for a sign before you make the move is, it's not always going to be there, but obviously that there can be a degree of some self fulfilling prophecy where, if you've, if you've got an outcome in your mind, like a dream and you want to chase that, then you can make it happen. If you want to start your company, if you want to work in a different role, if you want to retrain, if you want to start a different, different life path, then, then you can do that. If you've got something in your head around what that could be, then that could be a starting point and, and it can be a, an incredible sort of filter and guide for how you then make your decision work.

Kevin: 15:24

it's as simple also as if you go into a new situation an unknown with a negative mindset, and I'm not about all positivity, we all hold hands and there's unicorns and rainbows all around us, but if we go into an unknown with a negative mindset, it's like it's a human condition, we'll find what we're looking for, so we will see all of the things that feed into that negative mindset, and it will validate why we're negative about it, it's almost like we're trying to find a justification for the mindset that we brought to it and that's kind of a natural human condition, unfortunately. And I'm saying, wouldn't it be wonderful if you use the same behavioral patterns, use the same situations and circumstances, but you go at it with a positive mindset and you're looking for the positives. The same occurs, you'll find what you're looking for. So you'll find the things that are positive. You'll find the things that go, Oh, we'd never have done that. Or that's a new thing or, Hey, that's a challenge. And it's a bit scary, but wow. It's also an adventure versus, Oh man, that's a challenge. That's, I knew this was going to happen and I ain't going to touch it. And I'm just going to tell everyone, this is why I didn't want to come, so it's a self fulfilling prophecy to negate. the considered risk or the move that you've made if you go at it with a mindset that is, this isn't going to work. So a lot has to do with mindset. A lot has to do with framing it. A lot has to do with language. And it's not for everyone.

Chris Hudson: 16:56

yeah. I want to go into that, I think a little bit more because. What you're saying is effectively confirmation bias. So if you, you're, you're presented with things and you can find risks and loopholes within every, within every situation, but that will lead you to the conclusion that it's probably the wrong thing if you're not comfortable with taking the risk to find out whether it is the right or the wrong thing. So, so that can obviously limit your choices somewhat. I'm wondering whether, we as a current workforce or species even set up that well for change, on that basis, because, we, we do want to go into work and expect a certain thing from work that we do every day, in the way that your work is created in the way that your work is acknowledged by the. The community of, leaders and other teams that you're, you're usually working with, we kind of programmed to either expect the same response or, or something better, ideally, and not, not a rejection. Rejection tends to be the hardest part. And I, I honestly wonder how, conflict management. It feels like it's, it's so. Present, but as in the need to manage conflict, but it's, it's not really treated on the nose. Like it, it's not really something that in, in leadership or in management or, or in the way that you, you come through the workforce from grad all the way up, it's not, it's not designed into the system for, for how to manage conflicts, unless you've got a really good, like visionary boss that will make you go on that course and do it, but like we're, we're programmed to basically follow the simple path rather than the harder one.

Kevin: 18:27

And also, if you look at, if you, if you take it out of the individual that we've talking about in terms of crossroads, and you look at businesses and organizations,

Chris Hudson: 18:34

Yeah.

Kevin: 18:34

and I always scratch my head when I hear of, um, agencies, design companies, consultancies going into other organizations and saying, we're here about transformation management and transformation and, and you can tell. Like in the first eight seconds of those conversations, the organization is yes, this is really exciting and this is fun transformation. We're moving from current state to future state. Amazing. But then it very quickly goes into this is going to be hard and it's going to be expensive. This is going to take a lot of time and they start to convince themselves that transformation is not something that they actually want to do, even though they've been saying it, that could even be the brief. But when you get into the realities of it, that mindset of, Oh my God, what are all the hurdles that could possibly come up here? We should just convince yourself not to do that. So not, not so much conflict, but I think it's well conflict of interest perhaps, but I think it's interesting to kind of consider what an agency or consultancy says to walk those businesses off the cliff of, of saying no to a transformation they've asked for. And what I tend to say is in, not just in transformational work or in individual decision making on a crossroads, I, I talk about micro shifts. I talk about if you're on a path and let's say we're going this way and then you take a big transformational leap you're kind of all over here but if instead you say we're on this path we take a micro shift and we just do this. Over time the trajectory changes. So I find that with decision making, with transformation, whether it's personal, individual or organizational, and it's not revolutionary what I'm saying, but it helps the overall transformation if we break it down, it removes the overwhelm if we put it into pieces. If we then manage those pieces and say, tactically, we can see what those little changes are doing and we can adapt and change and pivot in real time, it just takes away that fear of change, because as you said, the human condition is, we're afraid of change, essentially, even though we say we want it,

Chris Hudson: 20:50

Mm.

Kevin: 20:51

behavior doesn't stack up to that really on average. So what we're trying to do, I think all of us independently, individually and. Is struggle with how do we transform our careers, our life decisions? How do we transform our, our our situation at work with a project? How do we transform? And it just immediately sounds totally overwhelming. When in fact, if we say, are there some small things we can do that take us on that road of transformation or on that road of decision making that helps, and here's the big thing, helps bring people with us. So when you're doing co ownership, even if you're talking about, or sorry, when you're doing transformation or even talking about your own decision making, if it's co ownership, then everyone's bought in and everyone's there to support each other. That I think is the key. And that's why Jim and I are doing this crossroad series to say, let's bring everyone together in a room to talk about these situations they're at to see that Support groups are there to say, actually, this isn't as scary as I thought, actually, I'm not the only one doing this organizations are the same and they see other people do seemingly transformational work, but then they break it down and see it's a step. It's a step. It's a step. It's a step. So that's, that's kind of where the same behavioral patterns I think can, can be used across both.

Chris Hudson: 22:13

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just as you're talking there, I was thinking about the conditions for success, right? And they just seem really hard. Like you were talking about transformation. I work in transformation as well. And I see these things a lot. You're basically saying, well, the only way to mobilise people and to, to get them moving is to sell in the dream of the long term goal that we're aiming for. So the longer term outcome is there and we can get the leadership excited about it if we do that, we can get some of the teams kind of motivated and everyone's going to have something, they can tell their friends and family about, they feel like they're in the right place because that's where they're going. This is a known direction. But then to get to that is, is like this, this, this Bewildering kind of mess of, what's it going to take and how are we going to do that? And who's got the skillset? What are we missing? What training do we need? And, do we have the policies in place and is there risk? All the questions that come at you, if you're an enterprise level client to get to that is actually a massive, massive achievement. And that's when you break it down. When you break it down, you're looking at a short term fix because you've, you've itemized something and yes, it's, it's more realistic to achieve that. Good. The, the kind of buy into that smaller level goal, it feels like it's less exciting in a way because people don't want to just change everything about what they're doing in the business as usual to then switch to this one thing that might be contributing to something for the three year, five year plan, but it's just a very small thing and it feels like a distraction. So how how do we get some of this sort of, momentum going in a positive way and in a way that, I don't know, When I came to Australia, I thought that actually Australian business was much more open and, less less confrontational, I want to say, than British business. It felt like there was, there was a kind of spirit of wanting to help each other out. So I think here it's easier, but in the UK, any kind of initiative that was put forward, even if you'd done all of your work. And, and all of the business casing was there, you'd expect just hostile response, like with every step that you made. So yeah, it's navigating some of that, it's not just the steps that you have to make, the decisions you have to make personally, but if it's out of your control and the business is like not moving for whatever reason, that's, that's surely just going to lead to

Kevin: 24:30

think it's, it's, it's not an either or what you've described, I totally understand and, and support what you're saying, but I think the pathway through is the middle path. It's not an either or it's both. And I think it is to say to the organization, you need to buy into this longterm vision that will very clearly articulate a future state that everyone is aligned with and is focused on. And that's great. In order to get there, our first step to get there is this, our next step to get there, so constantly the smaller steps that you're taking are in the context of, we're doing this to get there, so you don't lose sight of the big vision, but you don't minimize, minimize it by saying we're just doing this small little thing here and everyone's going, really? I thought we had this big kind of, idea and nobody's doing this tiny thing and you go, no, this tiny thing is on the way to the vision. I think it's, has to be said in the context of why this is important for what everyone's bought into. And that. It's just communication it's not anything strategic, it's not a skill that people need to spend days in workshops to sort of, it's just literally communication is simple to say we're doing this for that. Remember that we want to do this, we get there and then we do another one to get there. And each step we take tactically gets us there and that I think is where we can help organizations. Find transformation more palatable because they can see that it is steps. It's not big transformational overnight change. And at the same time, you can. Manage the expectations around what are we actually doing if we're doing these small little things every so often, we're sold from some consulting firm about this big idea and we're doing this. No, as long as it's communicated that this little thing is incredibly important to get us where we're going, which we all agreed on. It's a communication thing. And what happens then is. It allows yourself, for example, or transformational agencies or consultants or designers to track how the organization's appetite is in the process. So they might kind of go, yes, we want this big transformation. Let's do it. And not really want to buy into the process. So if you're going through the process and there's pushback, then you can call them out and say, but we all agreed that we need to get here. And to do that, we need to do this, this, and this. And we're only in the fourth step. And you're like, why are we doing this? We've got to stop everything and get you back onto the vision. Or see what's changed. Because if they drop their kind of passion for the vision, It's going to trickle down to everybody else, and then we're all just pushing rocks uphill because the organization doesn't want to do what they've asked to do. So again, it's communication, managing expectations, and tracking their appetite as you go along to ensure that they know. What all these steps are taking us to do that big vision at the end.

Chris Hudson: 27:34

Talked a bit about rejection there around, some of the initiatives and, the steps in the right direction may feel like the wrong steps not just to you, but to anyone else in the organization. So when when faced with that level of rejection or questioning, you know, how do you, how do you feel the best way to navigate some of those situations is?

Kevin: 27:52

it depends, it depends on the individual. I've been in situations, I'll give you two examples. One where I was working on a project where the founder of, of this business that was doing a separate. initiative was all in passionate blue sky thinking scattered. And the CEO very much grounded was like, I don't really know what it is we're doing. It's all sounds great, but it's that whole thing. I love it. What is it? And I remember talking to the CEO and saying, look, And this, this might sound like bad business advice for some of your listeners, but I said to the CEO on a call, I remember it clearly, look, I'm midway through this project with you, we've made a lot of progress and it's looking great and sounding great and it's ticking all the boxes. If we do this and you as an organization go into the world as business as usual, I'm going to tell you now, stop. Just stop, save your money. I'll pull the pin now. It's a waste of everyone's time. If what we're doing is set you up for this vision and this passion project initiative thing. And, but if you don't even know what this is, and it's just going to fall back into business as usual, just with a new label and a new name and a new lick of paint, stop and that prompted them to have some very serious conversations Articulate because it's not something that as an external person, you can do for them. The business needs to figure that out. And our, our job is to a challenge and be guide how they might do that. They went away and thought about it and brought enough clarity to it for it to move forward and we did it and it went ahead and it's moderately successful, cause I still don't think that they were fully aligned, but it was a moment where my role in those kinds of situations of uncertainty or pushback, you just, you just say, how do I deal with this as a, as a human, as a person, as a sensible, common sense person, that's, that's one. And it went ahead. Another was when an organization, international organization called myself and a colleague in to do a workshop. And then. Literally said, we need you to come in and convince us why we should work with you. We just done a whole series of research with a hundred of their staff, including their executive team. And we put that research back in and the next step was a workshop. And after all that research, they then said, CEO said, just come in and convince us why we should work with you. Now, conventional wisdom in our trade is a service. Industry, you go in and you try and grovel and push and convince and say, here's the credentials again. And I said, enough, no. So I went in in front of the CEO and 11, 12 of the top leadership from around the world, and I said, I'm not here to convince you to work with us at all I think you need to convince us that you're ready to be worked with, whether it's with us or somebody else, and from where I'm standing, you're not ready, and I walked out, literally walked out, they called back in 20 minutes and said, we'll do it. Now that's not to say blackmailing, it's, it's just to remove what our industry has built around how we talk to our clients, that we have to appease them, that we have to sell, we have to reassure, we have to make sure the project stays with us. And. I've taken the opposite tact and I've taken it as, you're a person and I'm a person, I'm a professional, I have experience and so do you, let's talk about this in common sense and if it's not helping anyone, we should agree to just separate, we should agree, or if you are coming at, like the, the CEO that was saying convince us to work with you, if you're coming at this with some kind of hostility or some power play, then be big enough to, to call it out and walk away. Thank you. But say, whether you work with us or someone else, you need to be ready, and I don't think you're ready, so get ready, and then you decide who you want to work with. That's how it should be. Because there's integrity in that, but there's also a sense of credibility that where you're coming from is I have your best interests at heart. Even if we're in a sort of a mini conflict situation here, a hostile environment, I have your best interests at heart. And I'm going to tell you as it is, rather than how do I get you to spend your dollars with me? That I think is, is how a lot of the, the industry operates. And I think it would be quite refreshing if it didn't operate like that.

Chris Hudson: 32:37

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think yeah, I mean, it's, it's incredibly powerful to be able to, be able to do that in that situation. I feel it takes courage. I

Kevin: 32:52

time for mind games, or it's a, if we're doing this and you've got your team involved, but it's actually not going to change anything, then we should just stop. You're not ready. Think about something, do something else.

Chris Hudson: 33:03

mean, there's, there's, there's a bit of a trend around, flat structures and leadership kind of dissolving and, and, sleeves up type. Design leadership in particular, where, everyone is in and, the work allocation seems fair conversation is very open the flip to that and, and maybe it's still, this still happens in flat structures a little bit, but power structures still exist and decisioning structures still exist within organizations. So, from the point of view of, Leadership is there for a reason, obviously, and there's a decisioning aspect to it, but at the same time, it can sort of switch into coercion as you were describing quite easily and what, what signals in that case would you be looking out for as being signs of saying, okay, well, this doesn't feel like quite right because for the listeners out there, they might not recognize the signs.

Kevin: 33:54

Yeah, I think I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a behavioral expert at all, but I think there comes a time when you've had a lot of conversations with just people through your life, not just your professional life, where you can start, if you, if you're attuned to where things are at, you can start picking up on. language, words that have been said. That's, that's the first, I think big key flag that you can be quite mindful of who, who is saying what. That's the first thing. Then the second thing is the body language. You'll have some people who are trying to be more assertive. And if you say they're being assertive with a certain kind of language, then you go, okay, I'm That, that's another kind of pattern. So you look for that. Then you say, well, who are they saying it to? So if it's to a subordinate or if it's to a senior, you can kind of go, is there an agenda here? So you can look at that and then you can say, and when are they saying it? So you can be quite mindful of they only say and act this way at a certain time when a certain thing's happening. So it's not that we have to be, these behavioral scientists and these linguistic experts and we're constantly, we're overwhelmed already. So we're not trying to be saying, gotta be always on edge. What, but we just know in a room. And if you have, as, as designers, as creatives, as people who work in the creative field and work in a room, in a space where we're trying to help organizations to cater to other humans, customers, clients, a big thing there is empathy.

Chris Hudson: 35:35

Yeah.

Kevin: 35:36

That's, that's a big trait that we all have at varying levels. So really what I'm saying is when you put language, body, language, behavioral patterns, who's saying what, when, what their role is, all that is just switching on your empathy. And empathy is. being in the shoes of other people. So whether it's the person who's doing all this behavior that you're concerned about or whether it's the people that this person's talking to and you go, how would they feel? Because how do I feel? That's when you start to go. Okay. I'm getting some flags. That that's kind of the softy stuff. The hard stuff then is We're going through all this stuff with you. You're saying you want to do X and this work is You Trying to reflect X and all I'm seeing is Y and Y is where you were before. There's no change. Everything that you're saying is we're going to operate the same way. We just need all this stuff to be done. And. That's a very practical, there's no language there. There's no behavior. So it's just a literal, you've asked us to do this, but you're not changing from this. We need to talk. And the best way to do that is to, again, depending on the individual is just to say, Hey, I've just noticed this. And one of your previous speakers, Berlin, who's awesome, maybe we should listen to Berlin. It's back to that whole feedback, how you handle the feedback is the same as how you might handle a question to someone like that is to say, look, I know we're doing this. It's going great. It's fine. Everything we discussed is great, but I'm just observing. Everyone's saying that we're not going to change. Is that the goal? Is that the objective? Has something changed since we started on this project? If something has changed, we should talk about that because we probably need to steer what we're doing back to where you already are. And if, if that's what we're going to do, is there a point in, in doing that? Because that seems like a waste of resources and just asking the question. So that the, the example I gave earlier where I said, you're not ready. And I walked out, that's quite a, that was a hostile environment anyway. But I wouldn't recommend that as a, a go to strategy. But what I would say is that. You should have the confidence to talk to somebody as a person and just ask the questions to see, are we on the same page? Has something changed? Because it, to me, it looks like it, maybe I'm missing something. That's fine. If you need to go and say, you're not ready, I'm out of here. That's fine too. If, if you're comfortable doing that.

Chris Hudson: 38:07

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's sort of, I mean, it comes across as maybe more, more relaxed, a little bit more carefree, if you're basically saying, I'm fine with either outcome, we can

Kevin: 38:17

yeah,

Chris Hudson: 38:17

okay for it to be in both situations,

Kevin: 38:20

but in, in, in the hostile one and in the kind of casual one, again, you've got their best interests at heart. Yeah. You're not there to get them on the hook. You're not there to upsell them. You're not there to stay quiet because they're paying the dollars. You're not there to, get a new portfolio piece. You're there to say, I need, I'm trying to add value. I'm trying to help you in your situation. And I don't see what we're doing is going to help get you to where you said you wanted to go. I think that's changed. Have I misunderstood? And if I have, let's talk about that because I've got your best interest at heart. I'm here to add value. And I say this oftentimes, and again, maybe listeners will say terrible business advice, but from a kind of a ethical moral compass point of view, it works really well for me. I will say to, to, to the business that I work with, if the best thing that I can do, the best way to add value to you is to get out of your way, I will do that. And we can talk about if that ever occurs and why, and, but I will do that because I have no interest in trying to string somebody along to pretend I'm doing something because I need to get an invoice out when I would rather spend that time getting another organization that we do feel like we're adding value to, and that there is a common goal that everyone's aligned on. Otherwise, it just feels like we're creating widgets and,

Chris Hudson: 39:41

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, as consultants, we, we, we get used to this sort of exchange of conversation a little bit particularly when it comes to, how you position yourself to people that don't know you for one personal value, personal worth, time is obviously incredibly important and, comes at a, at a premium. In some cases, people that do consult are obviously known for for charging what they charge. And there's a reason for that. But it feels beneath all of that, in anyone's situation, if you're a consultant and working within an organization as an intrapreneur, knowing that you're a situation of. Value creation, I want to say, in a moment is, is important to, to most people, you don't want to be sitting in a meeting and wondering why you're there or, or working on something that you don't think is, is aligned to the strategy. You think it's a complete waste of time and it's going to take you down a rabbit hole for nine months. You don't want to do that. So calling this out is hard and there's obviously a reason for why it's being set off track, but, but like you pointed out, it takes, takes bravery really to come forward and say, this isn't a line that we still talking about the same thing

Kevin: 40:47

And, and you and I are talking as business owners, you and I are talking as principals who will talk to our opposite principal in an organization. And I think for some of your audience who may not be a principal, that could be an employee running a project, very senior, but still beholden to the organization's decision making. I think for those listeners, there's nothing wrong to go to the leadership team and say, Hey, that project that we're working on? Do you, do you see what I'm seeing? I'm seeing that it's kind of going off track. Is there an intervention needed here? Should we just call our Jets and have a chat with them? Maybe the strategy on their end has changed and they haven't really communicated to us. And there's massive value within the organization for you to go to the leadership team with that versus I I'm a number. I'm a soldier. I'm just going to get this done because that's my job. That's, there's a value to that. Great. But there's no bigger value around that because that, that's a job versus someone who's looking at everything objectively and has the confidence and courage to go up the ladder and say, Hey, I could be wrong. I'm just double checking with you. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Is that something we should do? And then that is again, bringing them with you. Some of your listeners might be in that position and go, well, I can't do anything about it. I'm just told to do it. Then we still have a,

Chris Hudson: 42:14

Hmm.

Kevin: 42:17

that we can make. There is control that we can have on how we show up and look, you can go to your seniors and they go, don't worry about it. Just, just deliver it. And you go, okay, but I've said my piece. And after a while, if the pattern in your organization is no one's listening to you, Then you're at this crossroads. Should I be in this organization? They're not listening to me. I'm a cog in a, in a machine. Is that meaningful? And then we get back to where we started our conversation. I'm at an, I'm now at a crossroads. And the reason is that we as individuals aren't getting what we need in whatever context and therefore need change. And we might not know what that change looks like and we arrive at a crossroads. So I'm not sort of saying here, everyone needs to go and tell the businesses they work with to take a jump or do this or listen to us, because they might not be in a, in a position to do that. But if you're in a business, you definitely can. And I'll just wrap up that point with, when I was working at Saatchi's, we, we had a policy and our policy was to make sure that If we're all having a discussion about a project or a business we were working with or any situation, we would have this policy that says seniority doesn't win, experience does. So if we have myself and my co creator director at the time, Julian, if we were, running the show and the situation comes up and we say, we should do ABC and a junior designer says, well, actually my aunt said this and this and this, and this is what happened. And this is what they did. We will go, all right, we're going to listen to you because experience wins out over supposed seniority. And I think if you have this idea that you either can speak up or you want your company that you work with to allow that forum for people to speak up. Then. We should be looking at who has the experience in what we're doing versus who's the most senior in the room. And if you've got the experience from junior to mid to senior, we listen to that experience and take that on as the primary source of information. And that's, that's kind of how I think we need to have the confidence to, to, to show up.

Chris Hudson: 44:32

Yeah, I mean, you touched on a really interesting point there, I think, often in that moment of conflict within the situation where somebody notices that, things aren't going as well as they could, they can present a problem. And often, I would say it's often in the, in the situation, so probably at the wrong time timing is wrong because you're in the meeting, you're trying to talk about something else. Somebody says, no, no, I don't agree. And, they don't often, often offer a reason either, it's kind of like. With the experience that you were saying, if you, if you take the timing out and you, you engineer the conversation around the right time and you go in with a very clear and, not, it's not your own personal point of view, but, but with an evidenced point of view, then it's going to come across much better than if you just go in with a moan and without any evidence. And

Kevin: 45:23

I'm annoyed with this. I don't want to do this anymore.

Chris Hudson: 45:26

I don't, I'm not loving it, you know, whatever, however you want to say it.

Kevin: 45:29

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Hudson: 45:31

And, People have got different ways of expressing themselves, but, Yeah, so if you, if you go in without the evidence, it's going to come across as a little bit subjective, a bit of a moan, fine, manager doesn't know how to respond. There's no real action. There's no real, Locus for change, really, because there's no evidence attached. So it's going to be okay. I'm happy to listen. I'm the manager, but I don't know what to do with this information. So, so that's one thing. Evidence is kind of important to back up your case and you go in and say, well, if we're not aligned, then this is the reason let's do something about it. And then you feel, it can be a bit more constructive that way. The other one is just around. You know what you're saying about doing all that and then getting to the crossroads about the fact that you might be in the wrong company, I, I still think that there's maybe there's the big crossroads and the little one, right? So there's the, there's the stuff that you're, that you're using almost to feel your way through your employment. At various points, in, in the first week or in the first day or in the first three years, doesn't matter, but you can, you can read a lot from how people are responding to you and by putting some of these questions and some of these signals out there. So if you're in a situation like we were describing, and, somebody, somebody responds to that by shutting it down. Then you would, you would take that as a sign, instead of them listening and saying, well, that's interesting. Let's talk about it further. Or let's bring in, let's bring Philippa cause she's, she's done some work in error, whatever it is. It doesn't, it doesn't feel collaborative. So I'm thinking that you can, you can almost, fire out little mini tests here and there to, to, to see whether the culture is right for you in one way or another to, to see if the signals are right. Yeah.

Kevin: 47:07

yeah, it's important to say that when you go into that situation and you get shut down, that you go, damn it, this place is terrible. It got, no, it was just once that person could have had a bad day. You never, you need to see, is this a pattern that is consistent? Is this a pattern that is just one person or is it cultural? Is this is it me? It's something I'm doing, is it, am I the problem? I need to self reflect. So I think what we're, what you and I are saying here is that being mindful of those little mini tests is the way to track if the organization is for you or not. But you know, the. If it happens once and then saying, Oh, this is terrible. Then, then you go, hang on, cool your jets. It just see, because tomorrow they could be explaining to you that their kid was in hospital, at three in the morning and they didn't sleep and they're worried and they're just reacted and you go, Oh my God, this person's amazing. And I didn't realize that this was going on. And so we just need to be again, empathy. We just need to. Practice understanding of other people's situation. So we're keeping an eye on the patterns to see if this fits with us or not.

Chris Hudson: 48:14

Mm. Mm. I want to, I want to explore that point and maybe, maybe sort of treat it. Ahead of the crossroads a little bit. So in, in your experience, so you're talking to new clients a lot and it may result in a situation like the one that you've described where, it comes to that, that junction and there's okay, we're going left or right. Am I exiting the building? Is there anything on the lead up? On the road leading up and this could be, for you, before you meet a client or, for anybody else, say, if they're during an interview stage and they're going through rounds of interviews before they start employment with the company, that they could be thinking about that would be a good enough test to, to be able to get a read from whether, whether there's a fit, can we work together? Is it going to be right for me in some way or another?

Kevin: 49:00

Yep. I'm probably a bit unusual because I'm very direct. When I talk to those people in those first calls with people, actually the very first one,

Chris Hudson: 49:10

Yep.

Kevin: 49:10

um, they'll ask me a whole bunch of questions and I'll go, yep, cool. And answer them the usual. They're interviewing us, as should we work with you? And when they're done, I literally say to them, that was great. Now it's my turn. And they go, Oh, it's my turn. I've got to interview you. I've got to see if we're a good fit. And I will ask them questions about their values. If it hasn't come up and I'll, I'll, I'll interview them or interrogate them. If I don't need to do that, if in interrogating me or interviewing me, some of the stuff that I would ask has come up and we talked about it, that's fine. But I then say to them, okay, there's a few things you need to know. The first is I'm not looking for another job. because I've got plenty of stuff in my portfolio. I'm only interested in working with meaningful people doing good things, or good, good people doing meaningful things. And they are okay. So if you say, I only work with good people doing meaningful things, they're not going to go, we're not good people doing meaningful things. They're going to go, yeah, that's us. And you go, all right, so we've logged that. The second thing that I say is that I literally tell them about losing my mum and dad to cancer not as a sob story, but as a way to say, because of that I've come to the conclusion that we don't have time to fuck around, and I use that language, and I say to them, sorry, it's intentionally abrasive, because if we're here just pushing widgets, I'm not interested. But if we're here to do something great, I'm all in 110%. And I will literally explain to them the ground rules for why I want to work and 99 percent of the time they're on board. They go, yeah. And then the other thing I say, which we could do a whole other episode about, but it's, I tell them I'm not looking for any clients and I don't have any clients. That doesn't interest me. And they're looking at me thinking, but aren't we here having a discussion about, I say, I don't have clients because the structure in clients and suppliers looks like this, the clients are here and the suppliers are here and they tell us what to do and we just sort of do it. And what I do is I work with businesses and we. Consult to each other. It's, it's business to business, not client to supplier. So I have no clients and my job for you, if you're a business that I work with, is to give you all the recommendations that I might possibly have in the situation we're in as a business to business relationship, not as a client supplier relationship, and it just shifts the power dynamic and it makes it flat, flat field. I tell all that first, first conversation, I'm not kidding you and most people say, cool, now we know we'll move forward and I can then call them out midway through if I go, remember we agreed on this and now you've changed, were you lying?

Chris Hudson: 51:57

Yeah, yeah, nice. Well, I mean that, that's, that's bold as well. I think there's a, there's a lot in that positioning, almost so certain navigates the need to ask questions. When you get the opportunity to always feel a bit rude about taking any more of their time. I mean, ask one or two questions or do a good, do I go with three? Because that's really important, but. Yeah, I feel like people a bit more tentative in that situation. You'll say, just state what you stand for and see how they respond essentially.

Kevin: 52:25

Yeah. Because what you're, what you're trying to do is find a mutual respect on mutual ground. What you're not trying to do is get the job. Cause they're going to have the power and they're going to push you around or not, depending on what they're like, but you won't know that if you're not asking them questions. And I'm not combative when I talk, when I say those things, I'm incredibly polite. I'm smiling. I'm saying, let me explain. This is kind of how I do it. And I want to make sure that this fits with you guys because that's how I work. And if it doesn't, that's fine. I get that, but it will be better for us to talk about it now rather than three months from, from now. And, and they're really open to it. So that's, that's kind of how I managed that from day one.

Chris Hudson: 53:04

Love it. Do you think anyone could do that? I mean, despite seniority and years of experience and anything else. No.

Kevin: 53:10

No, no, it's, I think it's just back, goes back to confidence, goes back to language. It goes back to coming at it with their best interest. At heart to say, I want to make sure that you are aware of what I'm doing. I'm not coming in here with ego saying I need a new project. I'm not coming in here to get dollars in because I want a new job. I want to come in and I want to actually add value and help. And the only way that I can do that is to say that if we collectively can be good people doing meaningful things, I'm all in, but if we're not, or if we're just pushing shit uphill or for creating widgets or we're saying one thing and then we're going to be business as usual, then really there's no point. Is there I'm not helping you. So it comes from a, how can I help you best? And I think the best way to do that is to be honest, empathetic, transparent. And really caring for them, but in a way that says, I've got to back myself and I'm going to tell you how the best work that I produce that attracted you to me in the first place gets done. And this is how it gets done.

Chris Hudson: 54:20

Yeah. Brilliant. Really good. I mean I wish I had this advice, not just last year, but when I was about 20, would have been incredibly helpful. And, some people are really going to benefit from this. So I really appreciate you coming onto the show to tell us about it, Kevin. And as always, just really super interesting to talk and just explore this concept of crossroads and how we can all be aware of it. But to the extent that we can become a bit more comfortable in navigating that. From, from your point of view, tell us a bit about the, the series that you're running and, and the work that you're going to be doing and how people can get in touch with you if they want to.

Kevin: 54:55

Yeah, well, we've talked about crossroads a lot, but a wonderful general by the name of Jim Antonopoulos, who runs Tank in Melbourne. Jim and I got together. About a year ago now and said, we, we have to do something together. And over about six months, seven months of conversations, we landed on, we should do this thing called crossroads, the two day workshop. And what we're going to be looking at there is a lot of the themes that you and I have spoken about today, Chris, but we're looking at it as a, from an individual point of view, what does that look like? We're looking at it from a business studio agency. So up into where you're working and then what does the crossroads look like there? How you might. Reposition your studio, your agency. And then we're looking at the crossroads for the entire kind of industry sector and saying, what are the crossroads we're facing collectively and how might we manage that? And we haven't announced dates yet, but it'll be middle of this year. So very soon. And yeah, and it'll be Sydney, Melbourne to start with, we think, and then we're going to try and go around the rest of the country as, as planned. As we can but that's that's coming up. And then you can just contact myself through the sumof. com. au or on LinkedIn, just Kevin Finn.

Chris Hudson: 56:04

Yeah. Brilliant. Maybe you'll even go up to Broome or thereabouts again. Who knows? Who knows? No, it's really cool. I was thinking about the breakdown is sensible. I mean, obviously it's Crossroads for you personally, the organization you're within, it feels like it can level up lots of different layers of Crossroads that you can start to think about. So yeah, I'd urge anyone who gets the chance to work with you and with Jim, who I've also met, a wonderful guy. Just, just jump in and do it because it's going to be, it's going to be super cool and very, very helpful for anyone who comes along. So,

Kevin: 56:39

Oh, thanks, Chris.

Chris Hudson: 56:40

That's all right. Well, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much, Kevin. And again, really appreciate the chat and looking forward to hearing about how it went.

Kevin: 56:47

Thanks.