“Any little action, no matter how small, can make a huge difference.” - Joel Vermaas
This month’s theme
Joel Vermaas, a seasoned researcher and founder of Vibrant Insights, breaks down the dramatic shift from traditional methods like face-to-face interviews to the data-driven approaches of today.
Joel also shares his passion for the vast and ever-changing landscape of market research, highlighting the opportunity to delve into everything from consumer goods to life's most delicate moments.
Listen and gain valuable insights from their target audience and make informed business decisions.
In this episode you’ll hear about
Key links
About our guest
Joel is the founder of Vibrant Insights – a market research, insights and strategy agency at the intersection of commercial work and community, helping brands thrive. Joel has been in research for nearly two decades, and worked at some of Australia’s leading quantitative agencies.
Joel started Vibrant Insights to demonstrate that businesses can balance mindful approaches, while remaining commercially viable.
Joel, and Vibrant, does a great deal of work in the commercial space, with a range of publicly listed and private companies across property portals, digital, consumer packaged goods, quick-service restaurants, and even end-of-life (funerals, cremations, memorialisation). This includes brand/comms work, innovation, advanced techniques like segmentation and choice modelling, and harnesses a range of research tech.
At the same time, it’s about building up a ‘peace chest’ from doing this commercial work, funding the ability to engage in pro-bono / low-bono work, helping not-for-profits, while also donating 10% of profits to charity.
To Joel, it’s about a small sacrifice to profit and salary, to ultimately make the world a better place.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
“Any little action, no matter how small, can make a huge difference.” - Joel Vermaas
This month’s theme
Joel Vermaas, a seasoned researcher and founder of Vibrant Insights, breaks down the dramatic shift from traditional methods like face-to-face interviews to the data-driven approaches of today.
Joel also shares his passion for the vast and ever-changing landscape of market research, highlighting the opportunity to delve into everything from consumer goods to life's most delicate moments.
Listen and gain valuable insights from their target audience and make informed business decisions.
In this episode you’ll hear about
Key links
About our guest
Joel is the founder of Vibrant Insights – a market research, insights and strategy agency at the intersection of commercial work and community, helping brands thrive. Joel has been in research for nearly two decades, and worked at some of Australia’s leading quantitative agencies.
Joel started Vibrant Insights to demonstrate that businesses can balance mindful approaches, while remaining commercially viable.
Joel, and Vibrant, does a great deal of work in the commercial space, with a range of publicly listed and private companies across property portals, digital, consumer packaged goods, quick-service restaurants, and even end-of-life (funerals, cremations, memorialisation). This includes brand/comms work, innovation, advanced techniques like segmentation and choice modelling, and harnesses a range of research tech.
At the same time, it’s about building up a ‘peace chest’ from doing this commercial work, funding the ability to engage in pro-bono / low-bono work, helping not-for-profits, while also donating 10% of profits to charity.
To Joel, it’s about a small sacrifice to profit and salary, to ultimately make the world a better place.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Hello everyone and welcome back to the company road podcast. We recently wrapped up last month's focus, which was around trends and innovations with some amazing guests. So definitely urge you to listen back to some of those shows. If you've had to miss them for some reason, but moving on, we're going to move into our next big theme this month, which is all about overcoming challenges at work and how to weather the storm and build strategies for resilience and how we navigate financial challenges in business and some of the commercial trickiness that's in there. And as always, we're going to start with a focus area, a particular area of expertise. experience or expertise, which in this week's episode is going to be the widely practiced area of research. And Qual and Quant in all its glory and other things, you know, which many of you will have needed to work with or will over the course of your careers. It's really important. It's usually nestled in there in the business world in some way and there's some very skilled people that do this work So as my first specialist researcher on the show, so Joel Vermaas a very huge welcome to the show. How you doing today?
Joel Vermaas:Good. Thanks Chris. Thank you for having me along looking forward to having conversation.
Chris Hudson:Good So Joel, you're the you're the founder of vibrant insights, which is pretty cool You do market research, insights and strategy. Um, and you, you say you're at the intersection of commercial work and community, which is, which is a cool take on research, how that all works because often it's not that, but you're helping brands thrive. And you've been in research for a long time. So nearly, nearly two decades and you've worked with some of the world's leading quant agencies as well. You started Vibrant Insights, which is your own offer out in the market to demonstrate that businesses can balance mindful approaches. While remaining commercially viable, which, which is really cool and really interesting as a niche and you're, you're well placed for this chat today. We'll get into the weeds, but let's, let's just start with a big one, a big question. So the practice of research today, what it was like maybe 20 years ago or however far back you want to go, but when you first started out, was it the same, you know, what's changed about it? Is there stuff that's kind of carried through and once you'll read on it?
Joel Vermaas:Big question. Love it. I think a lot of things have changed. A lot of things have stayed the same. So, if we start with what's changed. If I think back to when I first started my career and this is going back to the dark ages, we were still doing not, you know, face to face interviews and knocking on people's doors and all that kind of stuff. So thinking back to those days when central recruitment bring a person into the office, we get them to sit and watch an ad or would have a conversation with them pen and paper that went to the coding room where people would code things into a PC and we're working with back then. Quanvert built for Windows 3. 1, like it was all. Old school pen and paper face to face, a lot of that sort of stuff that's changed rapidly. I mean, we're seeing more digital methods. Now we're seeing mobile enabled enabled surveys. Unfortunately, we've seen incentives drop. So back in those days, you know, paying people 75 to 120 for their time. Now you're not really getting anywhere near that. This is 20 years ago, and that was a lot of money. Incentives have dropped. Attention spans have dropped. The methods have moved now to be more digital. You can't expect a person to spend 20 minutes on a survey anymore. It's maybe 10 or 12 minutes before data suffers. I think a lot of the things in terms of how we collect the data, how we speak to people, the methods we use to recruit people, the attention spans, even the time we have for projects, which used to be two, three months to do a project, it's now, can we get a result in two or three days? I think we've seen a compression of everything. But I think the practice of research remains the same, right? It's about a client having a need. Needing some intelligence, needing a consumer view, bringing the consumer into the boardroom so they can make decisions with confidence. So the heart of it, I think, is still the same. It's still about finding answers to business questions. But the tools, the techniques, the way we do that, how we find people, how we collect the data and how we analyze it, all that has become quicker and more sophisticated.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, yeah. And do you think the demands from a leadership point of view in terms of the people that are briefing the work and, you know, trying to frame up what, what it needs to be? Do you think those have become, you know, greater basically than they were to begin with?
Joel Vermaas:Oh, absolutely. I think we're probably dealing in. Lots of competing forces, business budgets are being squeezed, they need to do more with less, headcounts are down, the sophistication of what they know now is growing and they're scaffolding on existing knowledge, so the demands of what they have to do to succeed are just getting greater. At the same time, The remit of what they're doing is expanding and the market is more challenging. So I can see a lot more pressure on them, which ultimately translates to what we need to do and helping them to navigate. I mean, at the end of the day, they're people, right? And they've just got more pressures in both their personal and their business lives. And our job is to help them navigate that successfully and making their lives easy.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. And then from a practitioner's point of view, I mean, there are people that are now probably more able to do research than they were before, given the tools that are available, you know, we know about and we use as well, but you know, they're not always, you know, bread and butter kind of researchers and they have, they've come from many walks of life basically to, to basically apply what they know to, to an existing brief or to an existing challenge. And they're able to work on projects in some capacity. I mean,
Joel Vermaas:I think the, if it The edge or joke about research is, you know, go to any conference and ask anyone how they ended up there. I'd say probably 99 percent of people have stumbled into the industry and then just kind of hang around. I think it's an industry that very few people want to get into. And being honest, it doesn't sound very sexy, right? So you do focus groups and you call people during dinner and ask them to do surveys. So I think as an industry, it's not that exciting. But I think as a pathway to come in, if you've got the passion, enthusiasm, I Come on in. Uh, certainly in my role as, as hiring people, we've seen lots of different backgrounds. Some of the most successful researchers I've seen. One is a forensic toxicologist. How do you go from that to market research? Another person had a major in political science. I think ultimately what it comes down to is the curiosity, the mental agility and the drive is ultimately what's going to set you up. So I think it doesn't really matter where you've come from, what you've done, what degree you've got behind you. As long as you're passionate, you're going to thrive here.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. And what do you think you need to, I mean, to become accredited in some way or to feel like, you know, you've, yeah, you've made the right steps to, to kind of show that you're qualified in some way or another. What's looking good at the minute? What do people need?
Joel Vermaas:Again, probably one of the great things about how the industry has changed is 20 years ago, it was all in textbooks, right? And the internet was very, very new back then. Whereas now the amount of knowledge you've got at your fingertips is just enormous and expanding. So I'd encourage anyone to go out and just read widely, whether you're looking at things like green book blog, you're looking at the research society here in Australia, ESMR, whatever's coming out. There's lots of really good content to upskill yourself with, listening to podcasts. Like Company Road is a great way as well to educate yourself and hear how professionals are talking. I think the first step is just learning up on the differences between tools and techniques and approaches, but then it's also just getting your hands dirty. There's no substitute for going out there, doing the work, working in a company and working alongside leaders who can help show you. How it actually works in practice. Theory is great, but no, no research plan ever saw first contact with the respondent. So getting in there and doing the work is how you kind of scale yourself up. And then beyond that, it's just ongoing professional development, the Research Society and the Australian Data Insights Association, they've got regular conferences, training programs, industry nights, where you can start to push yourself, learn about AI tools, learn about design, all sorts of stuff, all the way up to getting accredited as a qualified professional researcher.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I think you can start in that sort of observations, you know, in that observation mode where you're basically, I mean, this is how I started doing it, was basically looking at a load of reports because you're into some client's business and, you know, usually when you're getting on board with that sort of stuff, there's, there's a lot of documentation and some of it is PowerPoint presentations that, you know, your marketing team, your product team put together or whatever it is, some of it will be research that brings to life, you know, what customer or the consumer is, is needing in some way or the market need is, or, it can be futures or trends or anything really, but yeah, I felt like that was a really good entry point to really understand how data was basically presented and, and how information was organized. Um, and that kind of piqued my curiosity to think how the people might, might relate to, then you're thinking, okay, well, if that's the report and it's 300 pages of it. However, you know, I used to be like that anyway, give me the one page version. But yeah, it just feels like there's kind of ways to engage with the information and in you or anyone will, will find a way to, to think about what's interesting to them. And researchers can obviously then go into, you know, different industry specialisms and different fields and be quite narrow and quite. quite focused on something if they feel really passionate about that. But then as a practitioner, you're thinking, okay, well, how do I build from that information as, as it's presented into design of that, of that process in one way or another to get to that output? Um, and I think that's where it kind of gets a bit more interesting to be honest. Like, I feel like the end report is the end report. And you know, you and I both have our views on, on what makes for a good report and what doesn't. There's still a lot of, uh, yeah, fairly, fairly generic research happening out there. Yeah. And from your point of view, do you think that it's based on the, um, I guess the, the definition of the brief, uh, or, you know, the, the writing of the brief that, that kind of determines how, how good the research is, or do you think it's down to the research practitioner to make sure that it's, it's a good standard?
Joel Vermaas:I think it's probably a bit of both being honest, Chris. I think part of it is the, the, the clearer the brief, both the brief and the brief behind the brief. So asking the question, the client to understand the business context, the macro context, where that's coming from. I think you need to really get into your client's business and understand what challenges they're facing to design a good research program. And then I think it comes down to that practitioner as well. One of the most staggering things, which sounds obvious when you say it, but when you kind of think about a bit more, We're all guilty of this. Ritson reposted a 1998 HBR article entitled Backwards Market Research. And the idea was, start with the end in mind. Think about what those two, three, four killer charts are going to be that you put in front of your client. That, that's where you need to get to. X percent of people think this, or this is the size of the opportunity. Take a step back. What is the data we need to collect to do that? And take a step back. How do we design a program to collect that data to get us to that spot? Sounds really obvious, but I think most researchers, particularly when you start, there's a tendency to let's just do a really big survey, lots of focus groups, and let's collect lots of data, and let's chart up lots of things, and then hopefully we'll shake it up and something will come out of it. And that's where I think the olden days of, you know, 300 page reports used to happen. No one reads the things, right? They say, what's the summary? And the rest of it sits in a drawer and never gets opened again. I think as researchers, the more we can do backwards market research and land on the, here are the top three takeaways. That's where the gold is going to come from. But that only works if you understand the brief. So I think it's a hand in glove approach of the practitioner having the bravery to think, what is the end outcome? But having the bravery to ask the client, where do we need to get to? And really understanding what the brief is and the brief behind the brief.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I want to be maybe a little bit more specific on that outcome as well, because I think that, putting it bluntly, I think a lot of clients out there, organizations out there are trying to prove something that they feel is true already, right? So they're leading, leading the research to a certain conclusion. So the outcome is not like the outcome that the boss says is the outcome. It needs to be done in a way that basically makes for a fair, a fair comparison of a few different outcomes to get to the outcome. That is the final. Final one. To prove or disprove, you know, I think that that process of thinking about hypotheses and, and thinking about what you want the research to prove is an interesting one. So you're thinking about, yes, the outcome, the end result, um, probably, you know, what is the value from it in some sort of way? And then, and then you're thinking like, okay, well, if, if I need to get to that, then what would be the questions that we would need to ask and, and have answered. And I usually think that that, that then informs like methodology in some sort of way. You know, where do we, how do we find these things out? What do we want to find out? Um, how are we going to do it? And then, and then after that, obviously the, the whole thing can get designed up and hopefully gets where you want to get to, but there, there are many kind of wrong turns it feels like you can make. What are some of the things that you You see all the time as, as being like, Oh no, not again. This is happening again. What do you see?
Joel Vermaas:Yeah, I think there's probably from again, from two sides, like as researchers, I think going in with assumptions, thinking you, you kind of, you know, who you need to speak to, you know, what kinds of questions you need to ask, I think you need to have a good idea, but you need to go in with an open mind and not let your own ideas sway things. Hypotheses are great because from a hypothesis, you can challenge, challenge that and either confirm or refuse it, which is powerful. And I think having a stance is good, but I think having that open mind going in, not wanting to see a certain result is really important. Take a stance by all means, but don't try and manufacture the result. I think probably people trying to over egg something when, when it becomes a, we'd like to know A and B and C all the way up to Z. And I think you get into this habit of trying to do too many things. Half well and nothing gets done well. So I see that a lot research programs that become over bloated. I see surveys or focus group discussion guides that just they load up way too much content and it means people get fatigued. They get exhausted. The quality data you get is shocking so you can't make decisions off that. And I think the the tendency as well to just chart out everything to go. Here's every possible data point under the sun and not have the bravery to say, here's what we found. Here's what you should do next. I think those are some of the common pitfalls. Um, but I mean, the brief behind the brief is another interesting one. You, you spoke earlier and you and I had, had conversations about the disaster scenarios and I won't name brands, but it's probably one of the worst moments of my professional career. But it's an NPS program for, for a brand. And we'd gone through this process of. We got this amazing data set. There's some really nice insights. There's some overlays of, of kind of COVID and the conversation came back, which was, this is all great, but hey, this affects bonuses. So we need to find a way to make NPS the same. And it's like, I've heard this one as well. Well, I've had this one too. And it's like, Hey, NPS softened slightly, but the fact that it's, it's only dropped a few points is remarkable. Like you think about what COVID has done to your business, the industry, the world. Hey, this is a great result. Yeah, but there's a bonus involved. So we need you to manufacture a result to make sure that NPS is the same as last year. Now, I professionally stepped back from that and said, I'm sorry, I can't do this. I'm not willing to manipulate data in order to manufacture a result. I think that's a, again, an example of where, you know, that's a pitfall of making the research have to show something because there's an agenda behind it. I'm not sure how you navigate that other than professionally stepping back and saying as a qualified researcher, I can't, I can't touch this. But yeah, that's a, that's a challenging one.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's so. I think misuse of data is always there. The fact that there is a 300 page report, you know, a researcher might say, okay, well, we're putting this report together in case it gets into somebody else's hands. It's like, usually, it's along those lines, but it's basically, okay, well, we put this amazing report together. Um, I don't want any of the information to be taken out of context. And in fact, it takes on the kind of guise of a legal document in some sort of way because you, you leave it there and then, you know, it's on the client's desk. Kind of, you know, you think, okay, well that's, that's good. That's job done. You walk away. Um, you don't want anything to be kind of misinterpreted or misused. So, so all of the, all of the way in which the information is, is shown, obviously is, is watertight. You've got sourcing and all the things that you need to put through it. References and footnotes and, you know, caveats and, you know, everything else that goes into those documents. But, yeah, it just feels like. You know, no matter what you do, like a stat and a percentage is going to get lifted out and somebody will use it in a wrong way at some point, but you can only try, right,
Joel Vermaas:which I also find staggering, though, the amount of times where you think about priority project, it's like, here's where we deliver the report, but hey, we need a top line two weeks before then. And the amount of times that I've seen decisions made off top line data and off we go. I mean, there's a great quote by one of the senior markers at Coca Cola who challenged all research and said your whole idea of 95 percent confidence level. He said, I don't need to know after three quarters that you're 95 percent confident my brand is in decline. Tell me at quarter one at 80 percent because I need to take action now. So I think there's also a balance point between rigor, defensibility, Needing to go to the nth degree of scientific rigor, which can hamstring the whole thing. You and I have had conversations about this at length. Um, the challenge between UX and pivoting an entire team of devs after one interview. Which is probably way too loose. Versus traditional research scientific method, which takes six months and involves tens of thousands of people. I think we need to find a balance point between those two. I think, you know, a lot of decisions get made on imperfect information, but if we're 80 percent of the way there and we can act in two weeks, do we really need to get to 90%? After six months, I think that the balance point is important to find.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I think there's, there's also, you'll be seeing this as well, but in terms of this month's theme, where we're looking at business adaptability a little, a little bit, you know, overcoming challenges and, you know, weathering the storm and preparing businesses for resilience and that kind of thing. It feels like jumping out of a longer term need for, you know, research to really be like extensively worked on and, and then outputting, you know, very, very deep, deep results essentially is, is kind of, I mean, that still does exist, but I feel like there's more of a willingness now that I'm seeing anyway with some of the clients that I work with too, to accept that imperfect data is actually okay. a little bit and, and to kind of work with, um, indicative but lesser formed data points and conclusions, um, from research than, than perhaps before. So it doesn't need to be, you know, empirically kind of tested and, and crossed off, uh, to the letter as much as it maybe once did. And I know that's only in relation to Perhaps more in products and service design areas where that, that kind of appetite for risk and failure and experimentation is actually, you know, so everyone's okay with that a little bit, but that's just part of what we have to do, uh, to be able to make progress in some way. And then you kind of build in your fidelity and you build in your understanding of time. Um, what, what dynamics are you seeing, are you seeing anything like that, or are you seeing other organizations that are still needing to do the belt and braces? 600 pages now, not 300, but 90, know what I mean? Yeah.
Joel Vermaas:I mean, look, again, I'm seeing a real balance. I'm seeing some clients who they're embracing. Let's learn fast, fail fast and move on. But then equally, you know, I've worked with clients where you do need to have the rigor behind it. I had one client who was making several million dollars worth of CapEx decisions. We're talking. Investing a new line capability in new states to develop entirely new product substrates brand extensions, extensions and you know when it's a multimillion dollar decision that you can't really recoup those costs as easily then you do need to have the rigor behind it and that's when the level of of approach and confidence needs to go up so I'm definitely seeing some move to that but I'm also seeing. Still some more kind of traditional methods when you think about choice modeling to really give confidence of what's the opportunity here? What's the upside? Is it worth us investing several millions of line capability? Yes or no?
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Can you explain choice modeling to people that may not know what it is?
Joel Vermaas:Yeah, totally. I love choice modeling. It's a really, it's a really fun technique, right? So the best way to think about choice modeling and to see it in real practice is if you've ever bought private health insurance, you ever bought a mobile phone or internet plan, that's probably been designed using choice modeling. And to be honest, a lot of products you see on shelves today are being designed using choice modeling that goes into the type of packaging that comes into the label design, the substrate it's in. i. e. the type of packaging, whether it's plastic or cardboard or whatever it might be, all the way through to the pricing strategy over a 52 week year. And basically, the idea behind choice modeling is that people don't make decisions. One by one, we don't make a decision and think about, well, let's take private health insurance. You don't think about dental and isolation and you don't think about optical and isolation. You tend to think about what's the right mix for me. Human nature is we want to maximize and minimize, maximize my benefit, minimize my cost. So if you do a standard research study and you say, Hey, what would you like included? Everything, please. How much of that would you like? Well, as much as I can get and how much do you want to pay? As little as I can get. It's not pragmatic for businesses to design that kind of product. So choice modeling basically says to a person super easily. Hey, here's three products. What would you choose? A, B or C. And through that, we've got a range of different attributes. And each of those have levels. So again, using private health insurance, here's the price with different levels underneath that, here's the brand that provides it, here's the level of optical, here's the level of dental, here's any additional inclusions. We move through that. For a person, it's an easy decision. Here's three products. I like that one. Great. Here's another three products. What would you choose? Great. Here's another three products. Super simple. They're evaluating things as a whole, just all types of psychology. In the back end as a researcher, we get this amazing data set where we've designed this approach, and we get this data at the back end that we can see everything together. How much of a role does brand, price, inclusions play on overall behavior? Fabulous, that's a really good start. Then we can take a step further and say, right, let's look at pricing. How sensitive are people to pricing levels? How sensitive are people to the amount they get back? Fabulous, lots of really nice data in there. Then we can take a step further and go, let's construct a product. If it looks like this, how much of the market share do we capture? What happens if we vary? So let's include this. Let's drop that out. What does that do to behavior? What happens if our competitors respond? So let's model those scenarios and do some war games. So you get this really nice ability to understand deep market dynamics and inform incredibly nuanced product decisions. And then you can run things out like what's the cost to serve that? Can we include something that's very cheap for us to do for the consumer that has enormous value to them? Where we can optimize maximum market share by doing something simple like that, or this cost us a lot. So if we drop the level of this, but include that we can get the same share. So for product holders through to actuaries through to marketers, such a powerful tool to understand the market. It's such a profound level. And really get deep and down and dirty on configuring the right product to maximize benefit to consumers and your organization. It's um, it's just awesome.
Chris Hudson:I love it. I love the passion in the way you describe it as well. Getting into it. This is good.
Joel Vermaas:That's also why I got into this gig, right? Like I, as an industry, I think, you know, we spoke earlier about the lack of sexiness around research, but the truth is, there's not many industries where every day you rock up and it's different. In a typical day, I'm looking at my email now, and I'm working from consumer goods, frozen consumer goods to funerals, cremations, memorializations. Like, tell me about that variety where suddenly you're learning about some of the hardest moments in a person's life, and I'm not talking about what to have for dinner tonight, all the way through to buying homes, buying cars. Through to your private health insurance, like the variety of what we deal with is enormous and it keeps the brain ticking. I love it as an industry because I'm always learning new things and always pushing myself into new directions. I think that's where the fun and excitement comes from. It's a great job to do.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, no, absolutely. No, it's great to hear. Hey, coming back to choice modeling, I kind of want to just come back to a point that you made there, which is probably around the You know, more, the structuring of it a little bit, but in terms of, I guess this is coming from what I see is that sometimes research and what we're trying to find out from the research is quite narrowly cast. And choice modeling obviously gives the opportunity for a lot of people to bring other, you know, other propositions and other things in to test, uh, in one way or another. But, but actually, you know, what I see a lot is that it, product or service design is actually over niched and, and you're, you're basically going in and, and you're trying to either focus on one feature or focus on something that's kind of at a, at a lower level, basically. Does it work or does it not? If it works, then we go in and make it, um, but one feature can sit within, you know, a big backlog and if it goes to months or years, you, you might not get the, the kind of the benefit from the perspective that you're describing. If you were to do choice modeling and you kind of lift it up into a higher proposition type area. So for anyone out there that is maybe. Navigating that space where they're basically in delivery modes or in design modes, and they're having to. Having to work on something that's a little bit more narrow, how would you suggest that they elevate that conversation to a something that could compare a set of features or feature clusters together to get to a better output?
Joel Vermaas:I think probably one of the best things to think about is choice modeling is used to validate. It's not an exploratory tool. It's a validatory tool. So I think when you're getting down to that level, you need to really know. All the data points of what you want to test in that model. Choice modeling is one of the best examples of garbage in garbage out. If you try and design something too big and too lumbering, you get nothing on the back end that you can use. So I would encourage anyone traveling through that to think how can we start to reduce the available set of variables or the attributes that go into there, bring it down, bring it down, bring it down. And there's some great techniques and I work with some brilliant analytics folk who help navigate this where, you know, bringing in two step models where we explore something outside of that and pull through the winner into the main models. So there's ways you can kind of prioritize what goes into there, but I think probably. Try not to bite off too much. There's nothing wrong with having two bites of the cherry, so to speak. Do the work first, understand those features, those benefits, help prioritize those, get some good job to be done, top prioritization happening. Once you kind of know what you're working with, then pull into the choice model, rather than trying to layer too much into there. Otherwise, you just spent a lot of money to spin your wheels and not find out a whole lot. That a simple stage of research before could have very quickly separated out what you need to do and where you need to avoid.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I mean, this is the eternal debate, isn't it? When are you using what research methodology? And, and it's the qual quant qual, you know, whatever it is, whatever the combat is, but it feels like, uh, I don't know, it feels like a power move in a video game or something where you're trying to play out the things in the right order to get the best result. What are you seeing there? Has anything changed there from your point of view?
Joel Vermaas:Oh, absolutely. I think the elephant in the room with, of what we're all dealing with is AI and I'm seeing that. Start to fundamentally change how we approach research. I mean, right now it's things like AI based moderators, which means we can go out at scale and collect qualitative data at quantitative scale incredibly quickly, almost overnight. We can have thousands of one to one evolving conversations. Does it replace having a very clever human sitting opposite a person and picking up on that facial expression or hey, I noticed you hesitated there. Can we just pause and explore that? AI I can't do that yet. So I think there's still power in having people, but that gives us the ability to do qual at quant scale. I think some of the quant tools we're seeing are running quicker and quicker and quicker, which means seeing clients now, 24 hour turnaround, something goes in, program it yourself, launch it. Here's the answer. We can scaffold and move on very quickly. So I think we're starting to see those things happen more and more and more. But I think there's also a need to stop and pause and think before we jump on some other things. I can certainly see that accelerating. And then all the way through to the people. Synthetic users are a growing category. There's numerous suppliers now who are saying, hey, we can scan all this information, create a synthetic pool of users that never get tired, never get exhausted, never bow out, that you can start to explore and push on and really get to know. Where the limits of that are depends on whether we're talking about something people love discussing like automotive or sporting teams or alcohol or something that no one wants to talk about like. I don't know. Cleaning your ears. I don't know. I suspect people don't spend a lot of time on Reddit forums talking about which which brand is the best Q tip. So I think the training data will vary, but I can see synthetic users also helping with getting a lot of knowledge very quickly before you then move out and speak to a wider base of real humans.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I mean, from a decisioning point of view, we're talking a bit about weathering a storm and, you know, how to, how to build resilience, but, but actually your data set is key, right? I mean, it feels like, you know, your confidence from that research would need to be either proven or, you know, You know, it's a bit of a gamble, but it's a clear if you, if you're going out into unlearned data sets or methodologies. So I know some organizations like work with some already that are building those synthetic customer profiles and personas and using that as a design tool to essentially skyrocket, uh, through gen AI, you know, that's skyrocketing their ideation innovation process, which is kind of cool. But at the same time, you've got to wonder about its limitations. So like you say, the nuance there. And as a research and innovation practitioner, I'm always thinking of ok. There are some things that it could tell you, but it's basically working with a limited data set, and it's not designed to basically stretch or pivot out into different lateral and more abstract trains of thought that might take you as like, okay, well, I'm facilitating you today and I have my list of 10 questions, but because we're talking about the things that. We, we've kind of covered that. I could see it's going down a certain path and we're talking about the same things that I cover in every podcast. I'm now gonna give you another six questions that will just be totally random about, based on something that you've said, you know, it's, it's a bit more generative in the moment rather than, you know, just kind of based on a, on a pattern or some, or something. So I think there's, there's a degree to which we need to. Navigate that still, and it feels like the results from those tests are still a little bit unproven. Have you seen anyone out there that's doing it well?
Joel Vermaas:I think the people who are selling it like to say they're doing it well. Yeah, yeah. Here's some great case studies conveniently. I think, as I said earlier, to your point, I think it's the quality of data set and it's how good your training data is to build a synthetic user. So, think about if you're scraping information from Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Reddit, Whirlpool, whatever forum you've got, if it is something that people discuss at length, and they do get quite, um, passionate about, I suspect you've got some wonderful training data that you can start to, to explore, things like auto, different brands of beer, and if you're into your kind of micro breweries, I suspect you'll see a lot of really good conversation, people waxing lyrical, your training data set will be phenomenal. But as I said, I think there's certain categories where people just don't engage in that level of conversation. So you're, you're learning an ability to kind of speed, speed rocket your, your innovation pipeline is going to be exceptionally limited. So, I think big categories, lots of conversation, probably right. Maybe in time we'll have the leap where things that people aren't discussing, we can get there. Um, certainly looking at some of the stuff Ritson is doing, he's used the example of sporting teams and he's used the, the auto example. And I think maybe a beer example where they've been able to get really good results from synthetic users. Positioning map, where brands are positioned, generally the statements and the map itself using synthetic data and replicating that with, with real people and being able to get very, very close. So, I think that gap will get narrower and narrower, but I think at the same time, I would view this the same way as syndicated, if you are using the same data set that everyone else is using and using the same tools. How much of a competitive advantage do you have there? It's going to come back to the humans that wield it and the creatives that start to design it. And I think the more we move into creative solutions and innovative solutions, The more we need smart humans directing the tools and coming up with the ideas. And I think the more we move down that path, the more you need real humans evaluating them. At the end of the day, something new and novel, the AI might fail because it is new and novel, whereas a human might say, that's actually genius and it solved the problem I have.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I see, I see a great weight of data being processed and, and, and obviously observation being made, but I always find, you know, certainly in, in the work that I teach as well, it's that leap between basically seeing what everything's telling you and actually making the stretch into something, something new or something fresh that's often, often missing. So even from the point of view of writing insights. Insight could just be, it could be written as an observation, like six out of 10 people saying this or doing that, but it's not really an insight. And then given that your company is called Vibrant Insights, I'd love to hear about that and how you do it and how you recommend people come. You know, come to think of insights, because I think it's really important. I think the distinction is really important to kind of elevate the thinking a little bit and to give that human, that human interpretation, as you've described.
Joel Vermaas:So I can give you a really nice example of that. Um, we recently did a project called Dreamover. I work very closely with, um, a partner of mine at The Hour Insights. And I was looking at kind of the journeys to property and how people feel about property and wealth creation. And one of the questions we asked in there was, why do you think people choose to own property? Open ended kind of free text. We took that, we pumped it through, ironically enough, an AI tool, which looks at the underlying emotion. What was really interesting under that is a lot of the narrative and the feedback coming out was quite negative. There's a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of anxiety, a lot of seeking reassurance coming through. And the way to kind of think about, to my mind, to your point, there's observations, which is the what. Push that further. So what? What does that mean? What's the implication behind that? That's the insight you need to get to. And what we found was. You think about why someone might want certainty, it's because they feel uncertain, why someone might want reassurance, it's because they are feeling a lack of reassurance, they're feeling a lack of confidence, so they want these things because there's an absence thereof, and it sounds really twee, but it's a nice kind of insight, at least from what our clients seem to say, it's people aren't chasing the property dream, they're trying to avoid a property nightmare now, it's the, I don't want to be beholden to a landlord anymore, I don't want to have to worry about my rent going up every other month, I don't want to have to worry about needing to move, So suddenly the great Australian dream of big home, backyard, place for the kids to run around, my own little slice of Australia, is now avoiding the property nightmare of being beholden to a landlord, or having rents go up, or having Maslow's hierarchy, you need for shelter removed from you. So that to me was a really nice example and I didn't necessarily come up with it. My partner did so I can kind of, um, toot his own little bit. I think it's a beautiful insight, right? And that's where you go from, yes, people want reassurance. So what? Because they're not feeling reassurance. Well, so what? Because there's so much uncertainty around property. Okay, great. Now what? If you now think about a brand and how you plant that space, how do we offer people that reassurance? How do we demonstrate empathy and respect? And hey, it is hard out there. Hey, there is a lot of uncertainty. How do we give you that reassurance about a place to live and help you own a property because it removes all those stresses? Do we bring out 10 year leases because that gives you the reassurance? Do we bring out 100 year leases, which is not that uncommon overseas? So I think that level of yeah. What, so what, now what is a way to help you move from data to insight and strategy?
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I love it. I mean, I, I want to build on that as well, because something that I use is almost a consequential, yeah, consequential thought process that, that builds out from there as well. So if you land on that insight, then you can think, Oh, what's the counter to that insight? So in that case, the fact that people want to stay in own property or, or looking to their motivated by own properties is kind of showing you one area, but it's also revealing that people want to stay in rent. for some reason as well. So what would be the insight around that? Why is that affording them more flexibility than they would otherwise get if they were, if they were needing to buy a house? And you know, the variable rates are going up and down. You don't want to jump into that too soon without some consideration too. So I think there's, there's always a counter to, to what the insight statement is that is showing you. And then you can also follow it. Follow it on and on through so it's, you know, if, if that, like you say, it wants to say what the now what, but how many versions of that extension can you make, um, and, and still be confident, obviously, that it's, it's not just made up, you know, you got to situate it in the truth and the days go, but, but I think that, that could be an interesting thinking tool. It's interesting to hear you talk because you're obviously passionate about it, you've, you've set up Vibrant Insights, uh, which is obviously, you know, coming at it from a, I guess, a less mechanical standpoint and, and you talk about positivity and community, uh, within your proposition as well. I'm wondering how, how you're seeing research being used in that way, um, in a way that can be purposeful and for good and some of the things that you describe and the way that you've set up your business. Thanks.
Joel Vermaas:Totally. So it's interesting thinking about kind of the genesis of where Vibrant Insights came around and working at lots of businesses and kind of seeing the way in which the commercials were set up. It struck me that in both those businesses, but business more broadly, there's a lot of money, there's a lot of money moving through, there's a lot of profit. And I started to think about where that profit goes in this idea of a finite world, but we're living infinitely. And I thought, you know, if, if someone just. Forgoes that new car or forgoes that third home, whatever it might be, the rich owner, the CEO, the white, white collar exec. If they took that money from that home and used that for good, what could that do? Where could we unlock goodness? And I remember listening to a, a Ted talk about a guy credit charity. And he was a whole left to center to charity where he hired the best CEOs and he paid them CEO salaries and he hired the best marketers. He paid them market marketer salaries and was successful. And it was amazing. But when you looked at the dollar cost per person that helped, it was way off the charts compared to other charities. And it shut down because people had this feeling like, as a charity, we can't spend too much money. We can't be seen to hire CEOs at CEO wages. But the truth is, the person you give a dollar to who needs it. They don't care whether it cost you 10 cents to make that dollar or 5 to make that dollar. That dollar has the same value to them. So for me, it was thinking through, I don't want to get away from doing great commercial work. I love doing commercial work. I love pushing myself. I love playing with innovation. I like being at the forefront of where, where companies can go, but also want to feel good about what I do. So that was, how do I find a way to do cutting edge commercial work, but give back? And for me, that was, If we take 10 percent of our profits, and that's mindful, it's profit, not revenue, but profit, paid myself, I've paid my employees, I've paid all the supplies I need to, everything's taken care of, everyone's doing great and they're looked after, why don't we take that profit pool and give that away? I'm not fussed, I've, I've got my salary, I'm happy, everyone else in the company is being paid industry wages, they're happy, yes, we invest the rest of that into the next year's growth and hiring the next person, but gee, can't we do so much good? And then we can take some of that money we make. And use that to fund pro bono, low bono work so we can go out and find charities and help them. So for me, it was how we balance commercial work and doing really good forward thinking research, but using that to support all the way through to, as I said, pro bono, low bono, helping charities that couldn't afford research. For research, which helps with informing how they develop their market plans, their communication plans, what their supply bases are, how they segment the market to find the highest values they can continue to exist, all the way through to government and social work, informing policy, informing behavior change, working with, with Victorian Australian government and various agencies thereof to help them understand how they do what they do. Where do we need to go? How do we encourage data sharing so we can identify at risk individuals, all that kind of jazz. So, I think research and bringing people's needs into the boardroom, into the decision makers laps, is so important, whether that's government and social, or whether through corporate, because of what that can allow us to do.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that's, I mean, that's really important work, I think, and, and it obviously elevates the, Now the meaning of the work really, to be much broader than what it would otherwise be, you know, and I think that that step and that leap is often, you know, it could be done, but it's often not done. If you're thinking about anyone within an organization who's doing some research or is leading a project, the broader society, societal, the broader purpose, the impact for that work could be considered to a great degree. I know. Other organizations that I've worked with, uh, consultancies and otherwise, but you know, you're thinking about how do you, how do you align your business and your goals to the, you know, the UN sustainability goals, for example, and, you know, how do you, how do you basically show that you're contributing positively? Um, and it feels like that, that would be coming, it will be becoming more important. So, As things get a bit more commoditized and a bit more, AI generated, it just feels like it might afford us time to think about some of these things. There's efficiencies here, but actually The flip from that and the pivot from that could be into, into other more value driving areas, right? If we had a bit more time, then we might think, okay, well, I've got a day a week and I can, I can do this pro bono work or I can, I can help another business or another team out. And yeah, are you seeing any of that working now or is it something that we're still, you know, working towards?
Joel Vermaas:I think it's been very positive from when I started Vibrant and. It's only been a couple of years or three years now and really wanted to have that strong sense of, of kind of social and community justice, seeing a lot of organizations step up massively in that game. I mean, the rise of the B Corp has been phenomenal to see more organizations now who are giving people more days to donate to charity and go out and do volunteer work. So I think we're seeing the narrative change, which is wonderful. And I think we're going to see more of that. I think one of the other things for me as a business and I've kind of got two, two points, which I'm trying to touch on one for me as a business is the more successful business gets, the more funds you can free up, the more chance you have to employ people and give a go to people who wouldn't be given a go. So my cousin back in South Africa, he ran an I. T. company and he used to go out and deliberately employ people who otherwise didn't have education, didn't have the background, who go into townships and find people who wanted to learn I. T. And he would bring them in and he would teach them how to do this. So it's very mindful approach of helping someone who otherwise would never be considered, learn a skill and get, um, get employed. I'd love to do more of that at Vibrant, employ people who want to get an industry who can't. The second thing, which, which probably strikes me around business is. Years ago, I was chatting to a colleague and she was feeling quite bitter about what we did. She was a survey program and she said, Oh, I program surveys to encourage people to buy more chocolate. It's soul crushing work. I took a step back and I said to her, think about what you're actually doing, right? Yes, it's a survey. Yes, it's to get people to buy more chocolate. Have you ever heard about the anatomy of a pencil? Have you, have you heard this, this thinking about the anatomy of a pencil and what goes into it? So, it's this beautiful story where someone said, take a pencil, humble pencil, bit of graphite in the middle of a bit of wood, think about everything that goes into creating that pencil, think about the person who cuts down the tree and them, so their, their lives, their jobs that you're employing because you buy that pencil, think about the coffee that that person who cuts down that tree drinks. Think about the truck driver who has to drive that coffee from the plantation to the processing plant. Like all these things get connected to a humble pencil, a few cents to buy a pencil. But there's this enormous set of industries that sit behind that. And I also go at the end of the day, our job, we help businesses succeed. We help them navigate a really complex world. We keep people in jobs. It's a really noble thing to do. We're helping business succeed. We're helping bring products to consumers. Now, if you work in tobacco, that's maybe a different conversation. And personally, we will never go near tobacco. But a lot of what we do, Cadbury was started with the idea of bringing joy to people. It's a company that ultimately makes something people really enjoy and give them dopamine hit. Nothing wrong with helping and the people you employ along the way, the marketers, the truck drivers, the admin staff, everything we do keeps people in jobs, helps their kids have a future. So to me, there's also a purity around helping business succeed. A lot of people that we can help through that as well.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, cool. Cool. I mean, this, uh, yeah, maybe I don't know if we'll get into the sugar pandemic and the ethics and everything else. Well, that's a different conversation. We can talk about that separately. No, it just feels like, I mean, I think it's right to have noble ambition from the work that you do. And I'm, you know, I'm thinking for the audience of this show where you're Intrapreneurs and you're in your business and you know, it can feel in any day that you're basically not contributing to anything bigger than the task that is on your to do list, right? You're in a kind of delivery mode. Um, but I think, you know, you, you can string it together quite easily. To kind of look at the broader impact from the point of view of, you know, setting up a well being initiative at work, you know, you're thinking about how to run things more inclusively, you know, from the example that you were giving in terms of recruitment, like you can be bringing in people that have a lesser opportunity and really pushing the. You know, the agenda when it comes, you know, an open and fair recruitment policy that doesn't discriminate and just bring in more white, you know, white people, you know, probably male or I don't know otherwise, people that are biased in certain way. You know, I think there's, there's something about, um, the fairness of, yeah, I want to say the fairness of research and how it's practiced because as a researcher, you always think I've got to be independent, but I'm being impartial. I've got to make sure that things are reported quite factually and I've got to think about how. How that will be used, you know, for good in some way or for purpose or how, how the decisions can be made from it. So I actually think, based on what you're saying, that in you as a researcher, and anyone can learn from this as well, but there's, there's basically, there's kind of an innate, You know, it's curiosity as well, but it's an ability to, to basically navigate some of this kind of, you know, uh, there's, you know, there's a lot of, uh, ways in which the business could turn and a lot of ways in which, you know, people could, you know, I want to say they, they kind of attach significance to certain areas, business priorities and areas and so on, but all of that it can be done in a way that's fair and it can be done in a way that kind of creates good and creates purpose. What do you think about that?
Joel Vermaas:I agree completely. I think increasing people want to see a sense of meaning in their lives. I think, you know, if it's something we're doing a lot of, You're spending 40 hours a week, maybe 35, maybe 40, maybe 60, depending on where you're working. But you want to see some kind of meaning and some kind of reward out of that. And that can come from doing meaningful work because you might be working in social and government all the way through to just having colleagues you really enjoy and a workplace that celebrates people and is inclusive and sees you as a human being. Um, so I think there's lots of ways to find meaning and purpose in one's life. And that could be as simple as, hey, we've got a great office program around recycling or You know, I just want to get home and help my plants grow because that feels like my own little slice of greenery and combating greenhouse emissions. Everyone finds their meaning in different ways, but I think organizations supporting people to be their best selves and finding ways to find meaning in their life is really important.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I think you're right there. I mean, yeah, it's obviously. It's obviously where it needs to be. I mean, I feel like meaning from work is really, it's really key. And the point I was trying to make before is like the way in which you describe how you go about research, it can be applied to your day to day job. So, you know, find meaning in the things that you do and, and, and use a kind of, you know, an open mind to, to kind of bring in the information that you need to be able to help facilitate decisions. I mean, it's all the stuff that research does. But you could apply it, anyone if they're not a researcher could just apply this stuff to their day to day and make something better of their, of their working scenario probably.
Joel Vermaas:Oh, I absolutely agree. At the end of the day, if you can understand what it is you're trying to solve for and figure out a way in which it's going to add benefit. I absolutely convinced the, the powers that be, that there needs to be a, a new approach or something done differently in the organization that will benefit people. I think there's a, a very clever way of thinking that through and getting the outcome you want.
Chris Hudson:How do you handle closed-mindedness, you know, from that point of view. So, so if you're thinking, okay, well I'm gonna gather the data that will lead to positive outcome, but some people just don't want to hear the facts, right. You know, when you're presenting back your report and it's to somebody who just has already made up their mind, they don't want to hear it, how do you respond then? You need to create that point of connection between, you know, somebody, somebody white collar stakeholder person and, and the, the people that you're, you're basically kind of shining a light on. It just feels like. That, that gap is there. I mean, they, they can, the slides can read, unfortunately, quite sort of statistically, or they, they can look like, you know, scientific report results right up, which is done, you know, in, in five bullet points on a slide or whatever. But actually there are real people in situations behind this that you have to bring to life. And I feel like it's almost. It's your responsibility to bring that voice into your business and into your organization. Like, if you're dealing with the information, then how can you, I always say this to the students that I work with as well. So how can you humanize that? How can you, how can you make it a point of discussion or a point of connection in some way? And that can be done through, like you say, pen portrait, persona, brilliant videos. You can use imagery, you can use quotes, obviously. I've actually brought customers into businesses and run co creation with them so that people, you know, behind boardroom tables can actually see who these people are and what they need, you know, um, so that that can be helpful. But, but I think, yeah, you do need to kind of bridge that gap to the outside world. Otherwise, it's, it's like you're working in a bubble with some very small pieces of statistical information that. That then might lead to a solution, but without the connection points, it just feels like it's a bit of a one sided view.
Joel Vermaas:And I think probably building on that as well, Chris, it's, it's your job there. If we kind of think about everything we've spoken about today, one is by taking a step to the backwards market research and what are we actually here to answer for? So if we've missed the mark, that could be the reason why the person is closed minded because we haven't understood the brief behind the brief and that's a failing on us as researchers not to keep probing until we really understand the business challenge. Then it's also advancing that to have we hit the so what and the now what? Have we hit the insight? Have we hit the strategy behind that? Because you can also see a person saying, well, you've just given me something that's challenged my worldview. I don't know what to do with that. Now that's scary. And I'd much rather go back to my little bubble where it's comfortable and I know what's going on and I'll make decisions from here. Or it's a case of, I know this is scary because it's indicating, you know, a market is declining. What do we do about that? How do we pivot? You know, you think about the, the age old code Kodak story. You think about a business that deals in film and the rise of digital cameras. It's very easy to say, no, film's never going to go anywhere. We're going to keep doubling, keep doubling down on this. And this is where it's going to go, because this is safe and comfortable. Or you do the whole, well, now become a chemical company. And that's our, our gig, or how do we double down on digital talking about the, well, so what, and now where do we go? Can remove that fear and insecurity from I just rather double down and keep doing what I do because that's all I know.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, which I think is the constant dilemma really for a lot of people within within these organizations because what you know, in terms of your bank of expertise is, I mean, that's your, that's your expertise, right? That's your value. For being in that place at that time. So if you're coming in as the researcher, then maybe, maybe some of those counter arguments or new ideas, or the way in which you present the market or new consumer need, some of that might be, might be a little bit unexpected and it might go against, you know, what somebody or a team or what the business has stood for in the past. But I think people have to be more open to that. I think, you know, what you were saying about the speed at which research can now be conducted, that there really is no excuse. In a way for, for being more in tune with some of those nuanced insights and market conditions. And, you know, you can be really responsive to that. Uh, it's just about, I think, facilitating the right conversation in a way that's probably less preachy, but, but also. You know, it's collaborative and we're going to have to work this thing out together. You know, we've got to, we've got to figure out what to do with the information. It was interesting that they, you know, this group was saying that, and that was the insight. And now we need to be quite pragmatic about how we're going to, how we're going to do something about it. So yeah, I think, I think using it as a conversation starter is usually really powerful, um, and framing it more as a, you know, an insight. It's an insight, but it can be framed almost as a question or an opportunity for further exploration really. Um, and usually it is like, cause obviously you're not, you know, you're not in the same discussion as, as you would be if you had a solution for that problem. It's not like you tell me the problem, I'll give you the solution, but it can just lead to that, that next step, the design process, which, which can be really critical. So yeah, lots of value in it. And, and I think, I think navigating that. In what we've all talked about, I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of moving parts here. There's a lot of speed, obviously, and there's a lot of data, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of margin for error, right, within all of that. And I think, you know, that, that's where a skilled leader or a skilled intrapreneur, you know, will, will be able to kind of direct and, and manage some of those conversations at field. Um, along that line, is there anything, you know, from, from your own, I guess, from your own skill set, from your own knowledge base or, or any piece of advice that you give to people that are navigating in that area to, to make that situation work in some way?
Joel Vermaas:Probably say the first, first piece of advice would be to keep exploring, keep asking, start from a perspective of understand that, that person, that stakeholder, the business and their needs. I think you know consulting can get quite a bad rap but I think there's a lot of good in consulting which is that the power of asking why the power of trying to understand and keep exploring until you really know what the problem is at hand and then designing around that I think then a fair dose of empathy. So once you are kind of understand where that person is coming from, put yourself in their shoes and understand their position and understand why that might be challenging them. And then I think probably a fair bit of tact and delicacy and treating the person like another human that's sitting opposite you and working together as a solution. It's a subtle thing, but. Thinking about the conversation, not like this, but a conversation side by side. And here is the problem solved together. It's a subtle repositioning, but it can help you solve, solve those kinds of problems and think about in your own personal life. I often think as researchers, we, we end up in a very privileged position because. I have suppliers, I engage, you provide services to me and I reflect on what I need and how I want to work with them and then I reflect on how that might translate to how I work with my clients, how are the ways in which I should be engaged and what are some of the challenges they might be facing and you can start to view upstream and downstream and think about it in that way and that can start to become a way to break down those barriers. I mean you were speaking about fear earlier and it struck me when this whole AI thing kicked off a year or two ago. I was a very vocal opponent to AI. I was like, this is ridiculous. We should never do this. You know, and that came from a place of fear because as a small business, it's like, all I've got are my, my skills and my experience and what I've done for a job. And I don't have. Enormous hardware capability to drive the stuff. I don't have teams of people to learn it. I don't have coding experience. This is going to, this is going to kill my job. Like, how am I going to pay my mortgage and look after my two kids? Like, what am I going to do? So it's very easy to come from a place of fear and dig your heels and be like, absolutely not. But then the more you start to turn to that and go, well, how do I actually think this through and what does it mean for me and how can I actually leverage this and use this in the right way, can move you from a place of fear and uncertainty to a place of here's the upside. In the same way, if someone is closed minded or what's the problem here I'm trying to solve, a fair dose of empathy and understanding can help you understand that person's challenge. And let you help them navigate that. At the end of the day, businesses are run by people. People make decisions. Our job is working with people to understand people, to make decisions that benefit people. It's, you know, you take all that away and it's a fellow human sitting opposite you. Treat them as such and try and understand their needs and you'll get a hell of a long way there.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, we're in these situations a little bit. Uh, it feels like we're. You come up against a blocker, right, and it's, you know, somebody responds to something a certain way, or it has to be a certain way, or, you know, there's something new to the market, AI is just coming along. Um, it, it kind of prompts a, a thought process, and it prompts a, a kind of, it's like a provocation, and it kind of gets you to respond in some sort of way. You can choose whether to walk away from it, and basically put your head in the sand, or, or you can accept it. Accept that it's there and actually think about how, you know, right, it's there. So how am I going to work this, make this work for us or for me and, and just move on. And I think there's, there's differences in approach there. And yeah, I think you work, if you can work with the problem, then often. That's a good starting point. I think for people out there that are aspiring leaders, that's, that's a really helpful way into, you know, more senior, more leadership, more strategic conversations as well, because you're, you're basically showing that you're, you're there to, to make positive of that situation somewhere.
Joel Vermaas:Think building on that as well using those kind of research skills approaching from different angles if you if you approach something in some way to try and work with a person and you hit a brick wall don't keep doing that that's it that's insanity find a different way around that I think about one person I work with for many years as a client and we struggle at times. Often and he would get frustrated and I would get frustrated and we found a way to work and it wasn't until a couple of years later where he was in his 40s and he went to go and chat to a doctor and he got diagnosed with Asperger's. And he's now a massive advocate and proponent of, um, of neurodiversity, and it's a superpower, it's a superpower in organizations to have a diverse workforce, be that of your background in ethnicity or neurodiversity, and all of a sudden, everything made sense, because he was able to sit down in a meeting and say, hey, I'm not a person who understands and gets nuance and subtext, and I don't enjoy small talk, and I don't enjoy going for a coffee with you because I need to know the purpose of that. All of a sudden, you can have a conversation with this person because we now get each other. I'm not going to lay this little hint out there and softly softly around this. Hey, here's a solution and here's what's going on. Let's have a conversation and bang we're into solution mode and this person is such a great mind that we cut out all that hard work of trying to find a way to navigate. We get to solution mode. God, he's a genius and he solves these things so quickly because we're able to cut all that out. Now, that's an example of where He identified with time what he needed and he was able to then set up meetings to say, this is how I need to run. I think as researchers, we can start to think about different ways to approach it because someone may not know or may not recognize and people are different. Some people are extroverted, some are introverted, some like data, some like stories. That's not a neurodiversity thing. That's a people thing. So taking those different runs at it. But I think also just opening a meeting, you know, he gave this great example of open meeting to say, hey, Hey, Are there any accommodations or ways we need to conduct today's meeting that would make it easier for anyone here to, to attend and contribute? It's a great way to open up for someone to say, actually, I just need a few minutes to think before I form a response. Fabulous. Thank you for letting me know. So when we have this discussion, let's now pause. Hey, so and so, I'd love to hear from you in a couple minutes. Please form an opinion. Let's get back. Hey, so and so, can you now share your opinion? So I think just opening that up to understanding there's different ways and different ways people think and as a researcher and as a leader understanding how to get the most out of people. So it's a powerful way of approaching relationships.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, it came up in the previous episode with Joel Hines just about storytelling and you know, it was all about connection before communication and that kind of thing. It was very much about understanding that first. I think if you can design that into your you know, into your meeting cadence or whatever it is, then that can be a really useful starting point. And, and it just means that you can obviously, you know, it's relatability that you can draw upon and come back to through, through various moments, in a presentation, in a meeting, in a workshop, whatever it is. It's really cool. I'll maybe finish with. Just a question, which we've heard a lot, you know, from you and how you approach this is hugely practical chat that we've had today. I think there's a lot of people going to get from it. So thank you. But, you know, what, what's kind of energizing you personally? And what drives you to work in this way? If you can break that down in some sort of way for the listeners?
Joel Vermaas:I think probably a few things keep me, keep me here and keep me going. I think, um, when I first started, it was the. The shininess of doing something new and the novelty because human beings love novelty. I think that morphed into fear and terror of, you know, I'm responsible for two kids and a mortgage. I need to keep a roof over these kids heads. Um, and now I think it's, it's morphed into what keeps me going is a few things. It's, I enjoy research because there's a process and there's a way of thinking through problems and ultimately, regardless of what industry, it's the same kind of way of thinking it through, but the business challenges in the way what you're there to solve varies. And I think for me, it's the constant learning of new. New industries, new challenges, new people, as I said, moving from funerals and cremations to frozen goods, like so different in terms of what you're learning, how you're working, but also the people who work in there are so different and the human beings you sit down opposite are so clever and so smart and have so many different stories that it's the vibe of doing that. Every day keeps me learning something new and keeps me guessing. I love it. And also just the sense of purpose, knowing that we're doing good in the world without having to compromise on doing. Top shelf work it's a it's a hard balance to walk between being a bleeding heart versus just doing really good work and there's a secondary benefit to community so I think it's the you know being able to look at my kids and say I started this thing with a view to do good in the world and to be really damn good at what I do. And right now I say I'm looking forward to hiring more people who are far smarter than me and no far more and for them to be really good at what they do and me to just enable that get out of the way so they can succeed. For me it's about creating something that people are really proud of, that they're doing because they're doing great work. They're challenging themselves, they're learning, they're on the edge of really great commercial work, but they can also feel good that they're changing the world at the same time.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, right. That's a powerful answer. I love it. I think the only thing to, to say about that is, um. Is that it's, it's a really noble ambition to kind of be so, to be so aware of what you, you feel and what you need in yourself to be happy and content with work to the extent that you can make those conditions, you know, work, and, and bring the right things together for that to be a possibility. And I feel like some, some people out there in the world of work definitely feel trapped or. you know, controlled really to some extent by the environment in which they're in. So, um, you know, it doesn't have to be that you have to walk away and start your own company one day, but actually from what we're describing, there are ways in which you can make the conditions of work You know, suitable for you and in a way that would be positive, fulfilling, impactful, you know, all the things that you're describing. And I think all of the tricks that you've, you know, all of the stories that you've been able to share today through setting up your own business will help people in those organizations to do some of those things. So I really appreciate the chat. Thank you. And
Joel Vermaas:I think, um, the one build I'd probably say on that, Chris, as well, is. If you think about the scope of the world's problems, it's really easy to get overwhelmed. I, as one person, cannot solve climate change. I cannot solve poverty. I cannot solve food scarcity. There's so many things I can't do. To my mind, that doesn't give me necessarily the right to then say, well, I'm not going to take any action, any little action, no matter how small. Can make a huge difference and for anyone who's working organization where you don't have to go and start start your own business you don't even have to change jobs if you are someone who is just a coder who thinks hey I just program some stuff find a way to pass the knowledge on to someone else. That's meaningful work. Go and find a, a, a pro bono or a charity or something where you can volunteer that bit of expertise you've got. That can change the world. Find a local organization that does work, whether that's joining up with your local, CFA, CFS, SES, great volunteer organizations all the way through to one day a year go and help clean up the local nursing home or plant some trees. Like, doesn't have to be these big grand gestures. Every tiny little action we make that leads up to life of purpose can make a difference. So I'd encourage anyone to think more broadly about how they can use their skills and how they can use what they can do. Make the world just a little bit better incremental change that will make the difference and when you think about your next company might be looking to work for check out with the corporate social responsibility policies are I dare say most organizations have them or they've got the appetite to do some good again organizations are full of people and people want to do good so I think even just on the conversation you might find management is incredibly receptive. Previous companies I've been at didn't have B Corp, didn't do any of this sort of stuff. And the second we said, Hey, what about B Corp? A dozen hands went up and people said, we'd love to do that. We want to be a part of that. All it takes is a spark and from that amazing good can come.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. I mean, that's it. It's like somebody to speak up or to articulate that thought in some way. And then if it's, if it's out there in the world, you know, in the team or, or even just out in the world more generally, then. It can, it can act as a beacon. You know, people can obviously gravitate towards that, then action can start from there, but it needs somebody to come forward. So if you're thinking it, then usually there's a way of converting that into some positive action. So yeah, I really appreciate that thought as well. Thank you. There's one more question, which is just like super practical, but you work with a lot of data. You've talked about overwhelm, um, for the people that just like, this is too much. I can't read anymore. I can't take anymore. We're at it. What are some of the strategies that you use to basically be able to walk away from data and, and re energize and come back to it with a fresh perspective?
Joel Vermaas:I think for me, probably two things. One is the power of the subconscious. I've always been amazed at how often, and I think we'll all relate to this, when you sit, try and bang your head against the problem and you're at your desk. You give up in frustration, you get up and you walk away to go make a cup of tea, and you get three steps out the door, and there's the lightbulb moment, you go, got it, solution. So I think for me, one is the power of the subconscious, just get away from it, and know that just because you're not at your desk, doesn't mean you're not working through a problem. The subconscious is orders of magnitude more powerful, and it does some amazing things. Step away, let the subconscious take over, and for me, just find things that give you energy and purpose and meaning and make you happy and give you a dopamine hit. For me, that's, you know, I built a little home garage, so I'll go and do a workout, or I've always got a couple instruments nearby that I might grab and noodle out a few things. For me, just having that moment to refresh and do something totally left, left to field, moving the body or, you know, getting some, some kind of random creativity firing, refreshes a new step, step back to it with a new sense of purpose. So for me, be comfortable stepping away, do something that gives you the hit, and you'll find often a solution will come to you.
Chris Hudson:Have some chocolate. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. Preferably low sugar. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. We won't advise on that. But yeah, really appreciate the chat again. Thanks so much, Joel. And yeah, we covered some interesting areas that I appreciate you kind of bearing with me as I kind of think about random obscure kind of ways to tie it all together. But yeah, it's been really cool. Thank you. Thanks for
Joel Vermaas:having me along, Chris. It's been a good conversation. for the questions. Awesome.