This is the story of Zoya, born into a world of upheaval, chaos, and strife and raised in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon - as was her father and grandfather. Equally important, this is also the story of a young woman's journey to transform her harsh reality into a journey of resilience, compassion, and leadership
Our conversation takes us from one place of conflict - Lebanon - to another in Ukraine, where she and her family sought refuge before the war there drove them to seek yet another sanctuary. With extraordinary calmness and lack of self pity, Zoya tells us of the violence that has dominated so much of her life; of her people who have been without a home for 75 years, and of her fears that the people of Gaza are in the middle of a new Nakba, that drove 800,000 Palestinians from their homes and country a quarter of a century ago.
The name Zoya, in Arabic, means "loving, caring and alive to the world". And that is exactly what shines through this extraordinary young woman who, somehow, has found her voice in kindness, compassion, deep inner reflection - and a clear moral compass.
So, this conversation moves through the ongoing trauma, to Zoya's search for transformation: in herself, her people and for the rest of us.
This is the story of Zoya, born into a world of upheaval, chaos, and strife and raised in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon - as was her father and grandfather. Equally important, this is also the story of a young woman's journey to transform her harsh reality into a journey of resilience, compassion, and leadership
Our conversation takes us from one place of conflict - Lebanon - to another in Ukraine, where she and her family sought refuge before the war there drove them to seek yet another sanctuary. With extraordinary calmness and lack of self pity, Zoya tells us of the violence that has dominated so much of her life; of her people who have been without a home for 75 years, and of her fears that the people of Gaza are in the middle of a new Nakba, that drove 800,000 Palestinians from their homes and country a quarter of a century ago.
The name Zoya, in Arabic, means "loving, caring and alive to the world". And that is exactly what shines through this extraordinary young woman who, somehow, has found her voice in kindness, compassion, deep inner reflection - and a clear moral compass.
So, this conversation moves through the ongoing trauma, to Zoya's search for transformation: in herself, her people and for the rest of us.
Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey stories of and about migrants of all kinds People seeking a better life, people fleeing an unbearable one, all, I suspect, wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries. I think I'm in danger of sounding like a stuck record. As I said last time, many of my guests are not only models of resilience and endurance, but have built leadership qualities that would put many corporate and political leaders in the shade. It's not just that they've been able to push through the suffering, the trauma and the dehumanization, both within their countries of origin as well as their final destination, but some, whom you have hopefully met, have also come to the conclusion that they are not just the leaders of the country, but have also built a remarkable thoughtfulness, a sense of compassion and a desire to help, born not out of some softness or guilt, but a tough understanding of what is right.
Stephen:My guest today is Zoya, a young woman who, I think, embodies all those qualities. Zoya was born in a huge Palestinian refugee camp in the Lebanon, as was her father. Her grandfather arrived there with his parents at the age of 10 after the Nakba or catastrophe when, to quote the UN, israeli militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. So four generations of Zoya's family have lived as stateless refugees, with limited rights in their host country and unable to return to their home of origin. Her story, as you will hear, is an extraordinary one, not just because of her achievements, including becoming a peace ambassador for the charity One Young World, or even her escape from not one but two countries, but for the resolute integrity that has emerged as her voice. Zoya, welcome to Migrant Odyssey. Thank you for talking to me.
Zoya:So when people ask me, where do you come from, I usually find it difficult how to define myself. Where do I come from? I was born to a Ukrainian mom and a Palestinian dad, so I was born in Lebanon, in a Palestinian refugee camp called Ayan el-Helue, which is the largest Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon. I was born into a family of seven my parents and five siblings and in that refugee camp life wasn't easy at all. I remember growing up in a community which is filled with child abuse, mental illnesses, ongoing clashes, and we would always hear gunfires, bombings and shootings and somehow, as children like, it became a normal part of our lives. So hearing those sounds of bombs and so on, it just became a normal part, and I know this is not normal, but that was our reality. And in that refugee camp, basically, they are usually surrounded by the Lebanese army, and in order for us to get into the refugee camp and outside of the refugee camp, we always needed to show our Palestinian identities.
Stephen:The camp in Lebanon has a special status, doesn't it? So when you talked about the army being outside, my first thought was why doesn't the army go inside? If there's so much lawlessness, why doesn't the army go inside? Could you tell me something about that?
Zoya:Yes, sure. So, basically, the Palestinian refugee camps are usually considered like Palestinian lands in Lebanon. So that is Ayan el-Helue, and it is like in the international agreement that these camps, these lands, were usually bought for Palestinians. So back in during the Nakba which is the catastrophe as we Arabs know the Palestinians had to leave Lebanon, had to leave Palestine and get distributed into different countries, and so those who were present in the northern part of Palestine, they needed to flee Palestine and go into Lebanon, and that's where they were distributed, into these Palestinian refugee camps. And, of course, the way they look today, we're in the same way that it used to look before, because how it started were basically like aluminum rooftops, and now they got advanced and with time, they started to build buildings with stones and using different elements of course. And, yeah, that is how it advanced. Long time ago it was about tents and aluminum rooftops and now it's more like buildings which are on top of each other. It's very crowded in there.
Stephen:Because they've actually been there, haven't they for 75 years, these camps?
Zoya:right, yes.
Stephen:That's right. So those camps - what we thought of as originally, as camps, if you like, with tents, as you put it, and shacks, have got proper buildings and the rest of it, but it is immensely crowded, is it not?
Zoya:Very crowded. Yes, Very crowded.
Stephen:When we were talking, when we started to g et to know one another, you told me that you could literally put your hand out of the window and you touched the next building right.
Zoya:Yes, that's a memory I have of my childhood. Yes, we only had one window outside of our like in our house. That's the only window we had, and then when I put my hand outside of the window I could touch the other building. So it is to that extent it is very much crowded.
Stephen:You said earlier on that there was a lot of child abuse, a lot of lawlessness, a lot of crime and gunfights, and the rest of it Is that between Palestinian factions. Or is that because there are criminals coming in from the outside, coming into the camp, because of course they know that the authorities can't chase them into the camp? What was it? Can you tell me something about that?
Zoya:Yes, so, yes, there are usually clashes between different factions, and this is something I understood when I was growing up. So there are ongoing clashes between these different factions and, because the Lebanese authority, they don't have much to say on what happens inside the camp. So, of course, this is a very good place for people who don't want to go to jail. They can hide there and the Lebanese army basically cannot come in to take those people. And, to be honest, growing up I usually used to hate that community. I never felt that I belonged to a community which is filled with violence, filled with ongoing clashes.
Zoya:But growing up I started to understand those people. I started to understand my people because imagine these people 75 years ago they had to flee Palestine because of the Israeli occupation and then they went outside of Palestine, thinking that in a couple of days they will come back. And this is very well much known that so many Palestinians who are now dead or who are now older than the Israeli state are in different countries all around the world and they hold their keys with them in a hope that they will go back to Palestine and go back and use it to open their houses and homes. And so imagine the frustration, imagine the pain that those people have. And, yeah, that is something I started to understand and I started to be compassionate with those violent people. I don't, of course, I don't agree with their way of expressing their pain, but I acknowledge that they have pain.
Zoya:So, yes, those people, that community that I used to hate, I came to understand that those people are actually oppressed, even if they're not in Palestine. They are in a country, that in Lebanon, but they are still not allowed to go back. So, for example, me, as a Palestinian refugee in Lebanon, I'm not allowed to go and visit Palestine, a country which is supposed to be my home. We are not allowed to visit Palestine, like never. So, yeah, I lived in that refugee camp and I lived in a single room with my whole family, seven members, two parents and five children.
Stephen:In one room In one room, is that right? One room? Yes, seven people slept, ate in one room.
Zoya:Yes, in one single room. Yes, yes, a one roomed house. So of course I think that was a huge difficult part in my childhood where I did not have the space to really express myself. But I remember myself as a curious child. I always wanted to know about the world, I wanted to discover and I wanted to really educate myself. So I went into a school and I was lucky that I got a good quality education, because my dad was able to afford only for a child and that was me. So I went into American school, which was just outside of the refugee camp. But of course that was also.
Zoya:That posed also a difficult reality because I was living. I was living two realities at the same time. I had the refugee camp and I also had the American school, which was which had a whole different reality. And because of the stereotypes when it comes to refugees, I was afraid to say that I come from a refugee camp. So when other children, when other students were worried about their grades and about school stuff, I was worried that at any moment they would ask me where do you come from? I was afraid to say that I lived in a refugee camp, yet alone, lived in a single room with my whole family and in order to get through with my education.
Zoya:I remember sitting like at home. At some point I was able to concentrate, like amidst the chaos. My siblings were still very little, they were one year old and five years old and at some point I had official exams and I remember asking my mom to prepare the bathroom as a studying room for me. So I spent quite some good time and I studied in the bathroom and I remember I used to cry at that reality and like, look at myself as if I'm looking at myself objectively from the outside. I was crying at that reality, but I knew that one day I'm going to be proud and of course today I am proud of that little Zoya.
Zoya:So that was a reality in Lebanon, and of course it wasn't. It doesn't like it doesn't only show the Palestinian struggle only with what happened to me, but rather I also remember my best friend, for example. My best friend whose father studied medicine in Cuba and he came back to and he had the opportunity to stay in Cuba and lead a happy future and a happy life and create a happy family, and yet he decided to go back to Lebanon in order to help the Palestinian people there. But when he came back, he saw a different reality. As Palestinians in Lebanon, we are prevented from working in more than 73 professions, and this is a sad reality. This is a sad reality that the world needs to know about. So, as taxi drivers, as nurses, as doctors, teachers, we are not allowed to work officially.
Stephen:So you're not allowed to work officially as a taxi driver, a teacher, a doctor.
Zoya:Yes, even a doctor. You are not allowed to work, not another work as a doctor, a medical doctor?
Stephen:No, really.
Zoya:Yes.
Stephen:Even though there's a shortage of doctors in Lebanon. You can't, you're not allowed to work as a medical doctor Of course you're not allowed. Yes, so sorry to interrupt. So what were you allowed officially to work in? Just give me two professions you're allowed to officially work in.
Zoya:I think what usually happens is people work inside the refugee camps, so you're allowed to do whatever you want in the refugee camps. In some, yes, and because we have Honorowa schools, we have Honorowa hospitals, which are funded by the UN, these are found outside the refugee camp, so these are places which have the opportunity for the Palestinians to work in. So, for example, this father, the father of my best friend he worked like for decades right now, he worked in these, in this Palestinian hospital, like UN hospital, and he worked there. But also the opportunities that they get, the rights that they get, are very limited in comparison to the Lebanese rights. So, for example, this father, because of the monthly payment that he used to get is never enough, of course, so he used to perform some surgeries under the name of a Lebanese doctor, and then this Palestinian doctor would perform the surgery, but, of course, a huge amount of the outcome of this surgery would go to the Lebanese doctor.
Zoya:And, of course, when I talk about all this, I don't want to put all the blame on Lebanon, because Lebanon has been struggling a lot since a very long time. There's economic crisis, so it's not like me coming here and I want to blame Lebanon for this reality, because all of this struggle of the Palestinian struggle is, in a way, is there in order for the right of Palestinians to go back to Palestine. So there's this right to return, and this is where this difficult question is being posed is like, okay, when are we going back to Palestine? So yeah, so that's part of the reality in Lebanon. There's also the reality of getting the education, for example. So I studied with my friends in the American University as a scholar. I got a scholarship to study there and then, once we graduated as Palestinians, no one, no one Palestinian student was employed in that American hospital. So yeah, because we don't have the Lebanese documents, we are not allowed to work.
Stephen:Your father. Tell me something about your father. What, what, what? Because you said you could afford to send you to one person, one of his children, to school. Tell me something about your father, please.
Zoya:Yes, so I remember it was my father's dream, for example, to study in the American University where I studied. It was his dream to study there, but of course, his reality back when he was a child it was a different reality. So now his dream was to educate his children and for him, giving this education to his children was his success. And I can say that I'm thankful to my dad because he was able to afford that to me and to my little siblings as well, and I think that is also it's important to mention.
Zoya:Like, as Palestinians, I think, when they are born having Palestinian documents and not official Passport or something, I think the Palestinians are born with a goal to get a passport. Like my dad was born as a Palestinian refugee and he never enjoyed the rights of any humans, like any human rights to just own something or work whatever you want to work. So of course, my dad did not enjoy those human rights and I think he always wanted to get a passport. So, yeah, it's like sometimes the privilege of someone is other person's goal, is other person's life goal, life purpose. And I think, yeah, my dad has not been lucky in getting a Ukrainian passport because during the same month when he needed and he wanted, like to get the Ukrainian passport. The war started in Ukraine, so and yeah, my dad is still in Lebanon today.
Stephen:And you? Is that correct? You, your mother and two of your siblings went to the Ukraine before the war. Is that right?
Zoya:Yes, that's correct.
Zoya:So, because of the situation in Lebanon and because there was a huge explosion which happened in the city of Beirut, killing at least 200 people, and the economic crisis had already started we also had a revolution before that, which had already begun as well that was when I decided that we are moving to Ukraine with my mom and little siblings to start a new like, to have a new fresh start in life.
Zoya:Because, yeah, like, we've been moving houses so many times and in Lebanon also, it's important to mention that we already had escaped a war back in 2006, when there was a war between Lebanon and Israel. That was the first time that I and my family had to flee a war, and that was when we moved to Ukraine for a year and a half until the war had ended and we went back to the refugee camp. So we already had an experience with the war and the bombs and so on, and we thought, ok, maybe we go to that Ukraine is a peaceful country, to our safe haven, where we are sure that no war could happen, and then have this fresh start in life. So, yeah, that is when we moved to Ukraine.
Stephen:So you and your siblings, I assume, were able to get Ukrainian passports, but your father was not able. Is that right? Because you were dependents of your mother, Is that correct? But your father could not get because he was yet to apply for it separately. Is that right?
Zoya:Yes, that's correct. So as children, we get Ukrainian passports directly once we are born.
Stephen:Curious. How did your parents meet? I mean Ukrainian and I assume Orthodox or Catholic Ukrainian and your father, you told me, is Muslim. Is that right? How did they meet, I mean, and how did that work out? In the depths of a refugee camp in Lebanon?
Zoya:So my dad wanted, because he always dreamt about education. So he traveled to Ukraine to study medicine. And that is something like quite often where adults usually travel to Ukraine and other post-Soviet Union countries and they get higher education there. So that's where my dad met my mom and they got married and he passed on and that's a reality. I always talk about my mom and I consider her as a heroine because, yeah, imagine a Ukrainian woman coming to a Palestinian refugee camp. She is a real hero and she was paid there and, yeah, she saw a whole different reality.
Zoya:Growing up, I thought that my mom was not happy in that reality until we went outside of the refugee camp. By the way, when I was 15, our house got bombed during those events and that is how we got outside of the refugee camp. And I remember asking my mom like what do you think about your life in this refugee camp? Like she managed to live there, I think 21 years maybe in that, or 24, I think. And I asked her like what's your attitude towards that refugee camp? And what she told me astonished me.
Zoya:Because she told me, like I found my freedom there, I found my community because in the refugee camp, despite all the violence and all the bombings and so on, all the violence. Yeah, despite all that, people are still warm and people are open and people are lovely and you feel that sense of a community where people want just to help. And wherever my mom would go like she would have friends and my mom is generally a positive person, so she was loved by that community. So, yeah, in a way, she found her freedom there. So of course, it wasn't difficult for my mom but she was able, like and that's the beauty of and maybe that's my message in life as well like, despite all those traumas, despite all that negative reality around you, despite all this like hard and harsh reality around you, you are able to create this positive community or positive reality for your own, and I think that is what my mom did for her and for us, for her family. So, yeah, she was able to create that positive spark in that refugee camp.
Stephen:And you have that. You have that, don't you?
Zoya:Yeah, I think that was contained. Yeah.
Stephen:From our previous conversation, this one. I know it's a bit premature to say I know, but I can see it shining through. You have that, you definitely have that. So you said, just going back to one bit of negativity, you said your house was bombed and that was during the conflict in between the inter-nising conflicts within the camps. So you were in the house when it was bombed or what happened.
Zoya:Yes, we were lucky because me, my mom and my little siblings were visiting my grandparents in Ukraine, but my dad and my brother were in that house, so we lived on the second floor and they were hiding on the first floor with my grandparents and so on, and yeah, basically we lost everything in that house, like everything was bombed. And who bombed it?
Stephen:I think we were sad. Who bombed it? Sorry to interrupt. Who bombed it?
Zoya:Yes, so it is one of the Palestinian factions, so it is one like it happened during one of those ongoing clashes that happen all the time. Okay, yes, and I think, like, what we were sad about is losing our pictures, because growing up, like, we understood that we lost our childhood. In a way, we did not want to lose those memories of our home, of our childhood, of the memories that we shared as a family. So that was the first time where we felt, okay, no, we lost something.
Stephen:You were born there. Your father was born there. Is that correct? Were his parents born there as well, or were they first generation refugees out of Palestine?
Zoya:No, they were the first generation refugees, so my grandparents were born in Palestine.
Stephen:And did they talk to you about how they left and under what circumstances? Do they talk to you about that?
Zoya:Yes, so I remember my grandfather. He was, I think, less than 10 years old and he would always tell us that, yeah, we left the house and we thought that we are going back, so they did not take much with them because they were confident that they are coming back. And that is a reality. That did not happen. And I remember also talking to the mom of my so my sister is married to someone and his mom, and maybe four years ago I was in Lebanon and we visited her and I think she was already in her 80s maybe at the time and we always loved to open Palestine, to open this topic and talk because it's part of our identity. And she showed us the key that she had ever since she was a child and left her house in Palestine. And her dream, her life dream, was just to go back there and use that key, open her house. And she showed us that key. And unfortunately, she died two years ago and her dream was buried with her, and that is a sad reality.
Stephen:Zoya, so did your grandfather or grandparents, or perhaps this woman as well. Did they talk about? I mean, you know, we people talk about the fact that the Palestinians left and they thought they were going back. Did they give you an idea? Under what circumstances Were they forced out of the village? Were they at gunpoint? What did they give you a sense of that?
Zoya:I'm not sure if I remember from my childhood like having these conversations, but I do remember like whenever we talk with all people, they would always tell us that people were being killed and slaughtered and murdered and they were obliged to leave. It's like either if you stay in your house, you're gonna get bombed. So you choose either to leave and make sure that your children are safe, or you just wait for death in your own house. So that was the reality. That was the harsh reality. That is what is happening in Gaza right now. Another Nekba is happening, an ongoing Nekba, ongoing catastrophe. So that is what is happening right now. People are deciding whether to stay in the North and get bombed at any moment or leave to the South and maybe they get the chance to live.
Stephen:How much information are you getting out of Gaza?
Zoya:So I always say that the best storyteller is the person who lived those experiences.
Zoya:So we cannot tell the story of someone Like the best storyteller will be the person who lived those experiences. So the best thing to do and know about Gaza is to listen to what's happening there through their people and not someone internationally telling the story of Gaza and people. And, of course, I do have friends. I don't have family and I used to say at first I don't have family, until I came to understand that everyone there is our family as well. We might not be connected with blood, but everyone there is our family, not only my family, everyone's family. So in a way, we are getting, I am getting information from my friends whose family is there and they would continuously tell me that we are losing contact with them, and so imagine the emotional overwhelming that they are going through this emotional roller coaster where they get in touch with them and then for a couple of days they lose that contact and then they make sure that they are still alive, and that is what has been going on since the last 40 days.
Stephen:Do you think that North Gaza will still be in Palestinian hands at the end of this?
Zoya:This is what we hope. This is what we hope, and but what we have witnessed is another Nakba. Those pictures, those images that we have seen where the people, in thousands and like a huge number of people, are going from the north to the south by foot. This is something that did not happen for the first time. This is what happened back in Nakba. So it's happening again. And back back then when it happened in 1948, that is, when our houses became none of our houses at all. And this is what is happening. This is what we fear that it is happening again.
Stephen:You're an immensely polite person. You know that you're immensely polite and you're really being very gentle and very nice. This is a question. I'm not sure where it's coming from, but it comes from quite clearly, quite deep into me. If you weren't a polite person, what would you say about what's going on in Gaza and by what's happening to the Palestinians, if you were not a polite person?
Zoya:No, that's a beautiful question, but I think this is who I am. I can't imagine a different reality for myself. I think that's who I am. Maybe that is who I choose to be, or, yeah, that is a choice I did for myself, because that is how I wanted to be, because I can tell from the refugee camp where I grew up I could have become also a violent person and used violent tools to express myself, but that is an active decision I made, that I want to fight the injustice.
Zoya:It doesn't mean, like, being peaceful, doesn't mean that we just agree, yeah, let's spread love and denying that anything is happening. No, there is so much happening. There are so much injustices that are happening, unfair things and, yeah, there's so much pain and trauma. This all is closing and, if I go on and on, all this is unstoppable. But despite all this, this is the thing that I'm trying to create, like to create something positive outside and, despite all those traumas, despite this reality, I'm trying to create something that keeps hope in us. And I think, yeah, what's happening? We all know this is a genocide and this is something we all need to say. This is not just a war. This is a genocide that is happening on the Palestinian people now in Gaza. Of course the world so many people have been saying this for so long right now and even before October 7, this is an ongoing occupation. We all know that. So of course, this is unacceptable and I try to be so.
Zoya:Basically, I became a peace ambassador since last year. It has been a dream of mine, when I was in that refugee camp witnessing all that violence. My dream was to become a peace ambassador, someone who's a messenger of love and peace, and now that this is happening now I ask myself how can I be that peace ambassador in this situation? How can I be a peace ambassador, talk about love and peace, because that is who I am. That is on my daily like, on a daily basis. That is who I am. And I kept on asking myself how can I be that exact person when there's a genocide happening?
Zoya:And what I discovered is that being peaceful and that's where we need to better understand what it means to be a peaceful person. If we look at Malala, if we look at Gandhi, if we look at Nelson Mandela, being peaceful doesn't mean standing there and giving speeches about peace and so on. Being peaceful means taking certain actions and being assertive and being affirmative. That is being peaceful. And being peaceful means fighting the injustice, speaking up that is being peaceful. So for me, being a peace ambassador now I understand that, yes, I'm a person who believes in spreading the message of love, peace and hope. I am this way and I won't change this about myself, despite anything. But now I get to see being a peace ambassador from a different perspective. I get to see myself as a messenger of a person who speaks up, who fights against injustices and fights against apartheid system and against occupation. That is peaceful.
Stephen:Yeah, I suppose you know one of the things you're saying here, and I understand, by the way, totally what you mean about being peace ambassadors. I mean standing there talking about love and doing nothing and doing something that is peace. Being a peace ambassador I assume I hope this is what you're saying is that your job is to create peace, to help create peace. That's your job, isn't it? In many ways? If it's, you know, it may not be your profession, but it's your job, it's your call.
Stephen:And I was thinking the other day, in fact, you know that there is so much, there is so much polarization and people always having an opinion about what's going on between Palestine and Israel, particularly after October the 7th, and maybe the job of people who are not directly involved should be to make peace, to create peace, to develop peace, to make sure that there is space.
Stephen:There is space for people to stop killing. Perhaps I haven't put it exactly right, but perhaps, perhaps, because pouring oil on the fire is not going to help anybody. It may make certain people feel better because they think they're right on both sides, but it doesn't help and you're doing the exact opposite. You're actually saying I'm a peace ambassador, seeing what's going on, knowing the injustices, feeling the injustices. Having experienced all that, you're still saying I'm a peace ambassador, bravo, bravo. So you left Ukraine and then you went to another country which, as far as I remember you telling me, your mother said to you it's up to you, you choose which country to go to. And you went for a nice, peaceful country and you're now doing a master's. Is that right?
Zoya:Yes, so I started my master's in psychology to become a positive psychologist.
Stephen:That's correct, yes, and you use that wonderful phrase, because I talked to you about interviewing and being concerned about post-traumatic stress and trauma in refugees, and you use that phrase post-traumatic growth, do you remember you? Yes, which I was very impressed with, very impressed with indeed. Tell me something, because that's something that you're talking about is post-traumatic growth, taking the trauma and growing with it, and I have seen a number of refugees that I've spoken to, and one of them, we both know, is my great researcher and co-worker on this podcast, dan Dacmalual, who discovered you for me, anyway, when you were talking at the same conference Is this ability of people to come out of this trauma, this huge trauma that they've experienced, and grow? Is there a way, do you think, in your view, is there a way of making sure that people are able to use this trauma to grow, not just to get over it, but to grow? That's what you're saying, isn't it?
Zoya:Yes, I discovered something. So currently I'm based in Switzerland, and that's when my mom told me we were in Poland. When we escaped, we were in Ukraine and we went to Poland. That is when we were hosted by a Polish family for four days until we took a decision to come to Switzerland. And that is something I also talk about kindness, the power of kindness, people's kindness and that has played a huge role in making us believe in kindness and believe in the good in life and believe in humanity, because after escaping two wars and becoming twice at FIG, it would have been easily for us to just slip into this whole of depression. And when we were faced by this people's kindness, I think that is when we regained our resilience and strength and positivity back. So, yes, my mom told me.
Zoya:So I chose a country and I took a decision to come to Switzerland. I thought this is a peaceful country and we finally deserve peace. So we came to Switzerland and we were hosted by a Swiss family for three months and a half. They were so kind and they helped us so much, not only to be like to understand the life in Switzerland and so on and I always say that we were expecting to receive a physical space in their house, but what they actually gave us was this sense of a home. We felt safe in their place and they gave us a safe space to express ourselves and express our pain. And I remember, when I was sharing about our story, their oldest daughter told us, told me like Zoya, you've got a powerful story. You need to share it.
Zoya:And that is how my storytelling journey started. I started sharing my story in different schools and different newspapers and news and so on and different interviews. And what I realized? That when I talked about my pain and in a way, I was letting my pain out, I was freeing myself from the mental prison that I had within because of all those traumas. In a certain way, we have developed a mental prison within us and because I was talking about my pain, I was letting it out. I was able to see my story from a different perspective. And that's when I discovered the power of storytelling, the power of changing our perspectives when it comes to seeing our stories, because I could see my story being a twice a refugee, escaping two wars. I could see myself as a victim, but I also knew that I had the choice to see myself as a survivor and a warrior, and that is what I chose to see in my story. I always say that it's the same story. It's the same, zoya, it's only the decision that I made to see my story in a different perspective and use those traumas to bring more power and more power into my attitude and knowing that I can take a decision in life.
Zoya:So, yeah, I do feel that, of course, I believe there is a space for growth and this post traumatic growth. I believe in it and also this is something I've been reflecting on the past few weeks which is when we talk about post traumatic growth, the first word is post and this is post something. But then, if something is ongoing, I have no answer when, in Gaza, for example, what is happening right now hasn't been happening only this time. It has been ongoing and we all know that. Imagine a teenager now living in Gaza by the time they get to the age of 14, they have already experienced four wars. So this is something ongoing. So I'm not sure about the situation there. But I think this psychology that we learn there is a specific psychology for those communities, because there is no post, it's an ongoing trauma.
Stephen:Maybe there's space to be calling it. Maybe there's space to be calling it traumatic growth, because, you're right, post you're very wisely pointed out, post is after it's over Trauma is never really over, but I know what you mean the actual external circumstances. But maybe there is from what you were talking about, talking about the narrative that you choose to have. And also, I think you pointed out something else which reminds me very strongly of the Sufi approach, which is gratitude. Gratitude for kindness, gratitude that you are, you are where you are, that you are in a country where it makes you feel safe. Gratitude that you've experienced all these things and that you're able, therefore, to know and grow, because if you hadn't experienced them, you would probably not be as conscious of all these, of the strength and the resilience and the suffering of people as well. You have been a delight. Thank you so much for talking to me. This is a story to share and I'm delighted to be able to talk to you.
Zoya:Yes, thank you so much for having me here.
Stephen:My thanks is always to Deng Dac Malual for working with me to bring these stories to you and indeed for introducing me to Zoya. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe or follow us wherever you normally listen to your podcasts, and please tell all your friends Until the next time. I'm Stephen Barden. This has been Migrant Odyssey.