This is the story of Sofia - a Ukrainian refugee now living in Berlin. After living in Israel , she and her Israel husband went back to Ukraine a few months before the war with Russia in 2022, to be with her mother and grandmother.All too quickly she found her life turned upside down.
This holder of a masters degree in international economics now works as a cleaner in Berlin and tells her story to Stephen Barden, with pain, with humour and fearsome grit.
This is the story of Sofia - a Ukrainian refugee now living in Berlin. After living in Israel , she and her Israel husband went back to Ukraine a few months before the war with Russia in 2022, to be with her mother and grandmother.All too quickly she found her life turned upside down.
This holder of a masters degree in international economics now works as a cleaner in Berlin and tells her story to Stephen Barden, with pain, with humour and fearsome grit.
Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey stories of and about migrants of all kinds People seeking a better life, people fleeing an unbearable one, all, I suspect, wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries. My guest today is Sofia, a refugee from Ukraine now living in Berlin. This is a woman with a master's degree in international economics who's now working around the clock cleaning other people's houses, totally without self-pity, as I'm sure you'll hear for yourself. Sofia strikes me as someone of whom most people in Europe would, if they stopped to think, say there, but for the grace of God. Because it is her personal pain to know that, unlike refugees from Africa, the Middle East and Asia, she doesn't have to fear being refused asylum.
stephen barden:But the German government has made it relatively easy for Ukrainian refugees to be declared residents of the country. That they have very good access to social and medical support in Germany, that Ukrainians even have access to private Ukrainian-speaking psychological therapists. Possibly, but it doesn't bring back those she has lost. Refugee ship and migration is not a competition in hardship and trauma. It's a disruption to the soul, it's an obliteration of one's place in society, whether that society was a village facing starvation or a thriving city demolished by the never-ending shelling by an invader. It is the migration from a place where you were recognized to a place where you have difficulty in recognizing yourself. This is Sofia's story, as you'll hear after our conversation. However, the story has been continuing.
Sofia:I was born in a tiny city like 400 kilometers from Kiev. I was raised like any kid in Ukraine. I went to school nothing special. Then, when I was 17, I entered the university in Kiev, so I went in there to start my own life.
stephen barden:And so. what you just skipped everything up to the age of 17. So the city you were born in, how big was it? And what did your parents do? What did your mother and father do?
Sofia:It was a tiny city a tiny city, luckily still existing 20,000 inhabitants at all. We lived in a private house with a household next to my mom's parents. So it's like school, home stuff you go to school, you help parents, you go to a grandma to help. I went to some sport, like any kid. I decided I need to learn English, so I took private lessons from my school teacher. She was a very nice lady, unfortunately passed away because of Corona. She wanted to give us some knowledges, so it's what's important.
stephen barden:So what did your mom do for a living?
Sofia:They both worked at the heavy machinery plant, which was like the biggest enterprise in the city and almost all the city work it in there.
stephen barden:Where in the Ukraine is it - north, south, east, west?
Sofia:No, no, no, it's Kiev region, then Jutomyr region. It's like in Zhytomir suburb.
stephen barden:Okay, so at 17, you said goodbye and off you went to university. And what did you study? International economics. International economics, why international.?
Sofia:economics. I don't know when I was applying. I was choosing between the Lord department and I had no idea what I'm going to do and what I want. About two years before I wanted to enter the military, yes, before my mother said, oh you with your eyes, what are you going to do in there? It's not for you, Choose something else. And my cousin was studying at that university before and he brought me this book about the university that choose. Okay, I will so. And when I was applying I had no idea it's like for me towards, like, economy, law, management, marketing. I had no idea what I just want to do. And when I was entering we didn't just apply, we had to pass three exams and if you had enough level then you are in. So I just like randomly applied for international and it was good, it was great, actually.
stephen barden:And then so you studied that for what? 3,4 years? (Sofia:Five, five.)
Sofia:Yes, okay, I have both bachelor's and master's degree in international economics.
stephen barden:Yes, and so, what did you do? where did you go with your masters in international economics? Did you go into government?
Sofia:(Did you go into) no, because when I worked on my third year of studying, I started to work for the companies that served our national sports team.
stephen barden:Okay.
Sofia:So we provided services for team going abroad, for the sports, competition and particular for our national football team. So I started to work at hospitality and it's like a piece of marketing, piece of management, everything, and it's my careful, attentive to details, stop and think ahead which is important. When you're planning something, when you're organizing something, it's important to think ahead.
stephen barden:So you basically organized and maintained the team as they went out? Yes, everything. From hotel bookings to everything that they were doing.
Sofia:Yeah, because when the team goes abroad, it's a pool of journalists, it's a pool of officials, it's quite a huge bunch of people.
stephen barden:So you were doing your part of that organization. Yes, wonderful, and that's when you came first to Germany, correct?
Sofia:Yeah, that was when we were getting ready for our football team qualified first time for the championship and we had a preparation like six months before we were going to and from for all the cities. It was nice. So there we were told that all Ukrainians are Alkoholiks, literally. Who told you that? The the mayor of Köln?
stephen barden:The mayor of Koln said that all Ukrainians are alcoholics.
Sofia:We had. We went to a reception. This was during the World Cup, yeah, like two months before that. were invited invited for reception and it the Rathouse , such a nice place, and have like producing beer at the basement yes, and I don't drink beer at all, like at all. I don't like beer, I don't understand the taste. They were serving beer in there and I was, and he came and said why don't you drink? I don't drink beer. He said oh, why? Al Ukrainians are Alcoholics. I know only two who are not. And the Klitschko brothers. Okay, thank you.
stephen barden:An entire nation is alcoholic. So you carry on working for them for some time.
Sofia:Yes, quite long time. Then they had of like national football association change and they would like to choose another provider for their services, so I quit it.
stephen barden:Okay, all the firm quit it actually yeah, yeah, cause they lost the licence,
Sofia:No, they haven't lost the license, they just like started working with smaller football clubs and athletes Okay.
stephen barden:But you then, in 2018, you had, you, had met your husband.
Sofia:No, no, no, I met him three years before that. Yes, Okay, yes, I met him in London. Yes, okay, yeah, we had a partner in London. We cooperated for a long time with that firm and we had some working meetings. And yes, I met him in a Hyde Park.
stephen barden:In Hyde An d he's Ukrainian as well, is he?
Sofia:No, he's not. What is he? He's Israeli .
stephen barden:Israeli, okay, okay, and what was his name? Jacob, yeah, and so you met, and then, and then, what happened to you?
Sofia:Yes, we just had like small chat. No, no, it's okay, it was just a small chat, "where are you from? What are you doing here? Like, how long are you going to stay? We had coffee and just exchanged the emails, that's all, and like we link emailing for six months, as I believe. Then he came to Ukraine to visit me. Then we've met again in Denmark. That's how it started, and I never thought I would have got married. He didn't think you were going to get married. No, I had like a bad temper.
stephen barden:you have a bad temper.
Sofia:Yes, I do, I do, I'm controlling it, I'm trying to control it, (SB: it's good to know that whikle I'm sitting here) No, it's not about aggression or something. It's just about I've lived for many years alone and I got used to the things my way. It's going my way and it's hard when you become older. It's hard to change your habits, it's hard to soften for someone else. So when you have your routine, you are trying to keep it.
stephen barden:So you and Jacob and got married when?
Sofia:2018. Now we got married in April.
stephen barden:Okay, and that was in Ukraine or in Israel.
Sofia:No, no, in Ukraine I'm not allowed to get married. In Israel. Okay, in Israel you can only be in religious marriage when rabbi has this ceremony. They call it Chupa. So only after that you are married in Israel, and if you are not a Jew you can't have Chupa. And if you don't have Chupa you are not married. So you just can register that you're living together, that you have, like that you have the house holding. Yeah, that's so.
stephen barden:So you got married in 2018 in Ukraine. Yes, and then the two of you went to Israel In August.
Sofia:We went, okay, just before the Independence Day it was the 27th of August.
stephen barden:And how long did you spend there?
Sofia:Till 2021- We went to Ukraine in November 21st.
stephen barden:Both of you went there. (sofiaYes), why?
Sofia:I wanted to. I planned it. I planned it before because I wanted to stay like next to my mom. And my grandmother, she's old and I've experienced troubles with getting to and from Israel, not because of the border control, but because of this corona restrictions, and usually it takes two days to get from Israel, like to the Eastern Europe. Yeah, because of all this flights and all this, but with corona it was literally impossible. And we also experienced war in Israel. It was two weeks of war.
Sofia:Also, you can't go anywhere. You can't take a flight, you can't, literally you can only walk out of Israel. There were two ways to walk out of Israel. There was a pedestrian walk to Jordan and to Egypt and during corona or war, you can't even walk out. You can swim to Cyprus, for example. Yes, and when my mom got to hospital with the corona, I couldn't even go for any money for like, with any papers, with any permits. I couldn't even leave Israel and it bothered me like a lot. I need to be somewhere close, somewhere I can I'm sure I can get in there. She's retired now and my grandma is 95. She's like about to die any day and I need to know that I'm able to get in there.
stephen barden:So you were - right, that was in November 2021. (Sofia:Yes), and at that stage, was there any hint that was going to be a war?
Sofia:Yes, yeah, actually I was there were not many people believed that the was about about to start, and I was sure it because before that I helped a lot when we had like the original conflict in the Eastern territories. I helped a lot and went there. So I knew then we're not going to stop. But, as many of us, I didn't expect the scale of it, that it will be that huge, that the Belorussia will allow them to attack through their territory. So the front line is 2000 kilometers. That's a huge. That's the front line. So we are being attacked, like from many directions.
Sofia:And, like I remember, a few months before that it was Saturday and my friends started to text me like oh, we are so sorry, we are so sorry. We are with you if you need anything, please. I was like the first thought I had was that the nuclear station has exploded in Ukraine. And then they texted that the CNN or BBC had this video about Russian troops on our border, so like more than 200,000 are at the border, and I was calling mom crying that's what's going on. What's going on? She said no, nothing, we are okay, we are watching TV. But, like, the BBC said it's a war. She said no, no, no, it's okay, it's fine Like they are in there like four or five months already. So most of Ukrainians would have started fight claiming that Russia never attack Ukraine, literally.
stephen barden:So it wasn't believed at all. So where were you when the war actually broke out?
Sofia:I was in my apartment in Irpin, (SB: Irpin is where?), 15 kilometers from Kiev, it's actually a Kiev suburb.
stephen barden:Okay, and so you and your husband were there right. And when did it start to affect you directly?
Sofia:Four in the morning, the helicopters start and the shelling started. Four in the morning, (SB:Four in the morning), Yes, four in the morning.
stephen barden:So the Russian helicopters came over and they started shelling. How did that - stupid question- How did that feel? What did you do?
Sofia:I was sitting on the floor crying because I have experienced the war before and I do know how scary it is.
stephen barden:So you had experienced the war before.
Sofia:Yes, yes in Israel.
stephen barden:Oh, during the Israeli war.
Sofia:Yeah, I have experienced the war before and I went to Eastern Ukraine in 2015. So I know when the shelling is, how is it? But I was crying just because I knew it would be awful that, the fear, that I knew it would be so bad, and none of us are ready to face all the cruelty we are not going to survive. My husband was packing his things. He brought his equipment with him. All Israelis are military experts, so he decided.
stephen barden:So he was packing his things to go,what To go and fight? (Yes,) even though he was not Ukrainian.
Sofia:I need to collect my things and I remember ,(SB: that same morning,. Yes, I remember, because it was until seven in the morning. He was ready and I received the message from my mom it's a war. I have this message still. It's a war.
stephen barden:Goodbye, and that was it (Sofia: yeah).
Sofia:His division went to Kharkiv region, which was already half occupied by the end of the day. They were fighting in the beginning there. And then and then he volunteered to go to Mariupol when it was already surrounded.
stephen barden:Why did he do that? Why do you think - you knew him. Why did he do that?
Sofia:That's unexplainable. He's experienced military. They were asked who's ready to go to Mariupol to help those surrounded by Russia. He said I am, and they flew by helicopters in there to occupied Marupol.
stephen barden:He wasn't an active soldier I mean he'd done his military service in Israel.
Sofia:Yes.
stephen barden:But he was not an active soldier.
Sofia:No, no, no, they all are active soldiers.
stephen barden:I know that, yeah, but he wasn't actually in the military. I know that he'd have to go back every year.
Sofia:Yes, every two years. Every year they have these military camps, military trainings, when you go to refresh your knowledges or like in danger, when it's dangerous, they are being recalled. Yes, to join the defence.
stephen barden:did he said okay, not only did he go the very first day of the war. He then volunteered to go to Mariupol as well.
Sofia:Yes.
stephen barden:He was thinking absolutely like a soldier
Sofia:Yes, it's not about doing the thinking, it's maybe the nature. Because he wasn't obliged, he wasn't on duty. I wasn't pushing him for I wouldn't say you have to. I've told you can go to Israel, like today. Please, I don't mind, I won't be judging, you can go, you also have parents and you can leave. It's not your war. He said. Would you go with me? I said no, I'm not going, I'm staying. So he said, we are staying.
stephen barden:So he went to Mariupol when it was surrounded, and what happened then?
Sofia:On 16th of April they started to the fight to break the surround Because, like Mariupol, had different divisions. It's a huge town. It has, like, military division and police officers and SWAT and border control and they were all around the city and they were trying all together in Azovstal (the iron and steel works). So they helped those separate troops to get together at one place Because it was a safe place. At least they could have survived shelling and other bombs at that plant. So on 16th of April, yes, they started the operation.
stephen barden:To break out basically.
Sofia:Yes, they reached Marupol successfully. Not all of them reached it Because the helicopters were shut down, but they reached and they. But at the end of the day he was killed by a sniper.
stephen barden:Oh, I'm sorry.
Sofia:We all are.
stephen barden:How did you find out?
Sofia:about it. I was informed in the evening that he is killed.
stephen barden:Did you? Can I ask you a question? Did you have a feeling that that was going to happen?
Sofia:No.
stephen barden:So you were completely taken by surprise.
Sofia:Not by surprise. I do realise it is war. (SB:Sure) I do realize we were not immortal none of us and the life ends with the death. But I hoped that probably his skills, his experience and he was highly trained that it might help. But it won't.
stephen barden:Were you ever? Did you ever directly encounter Russian troops?
Sofia:Yes, they were in Irpin for a month.
stephen barden:They were in Irpin for a month. (Yes), when was that? That was after Mariupol or before.
Sofia:No, no, no, it was before Mariupol, it was. They entered the subburbs of Kiev in March. There were tanks in Kiev, armoured tanks in Kiev, next to my university, actually so like, and I remember the local authorities provided men with guns. You just could have came and take one.
stephen barden:So they occupied where you were? Yes, did they take you prisoner, did they?
Sofia:Yes, they took our street, or it was already mainly women and kids. Like elderly people. They took us to the school basement and we spent 29 days in there. They were checking our papers, they were checking our bodies. If we have tattoos, if we have like Nazi signs on us, they do believe it seriously.
stephen barden:They believe that you're, -
Sofia:Yes, they believe, they do believe it. They were surprised at Irpin shock . It's a tiny city, like grown from a village. Like when a big city grows, it takes. (SB: It swallows up villages)Yes yes. And they were shocked that we have good roads, that we have nice houses, that we have iPads and iPhones in our houses. They were shocked. They thought we are like poor, like church mice.
stephen barden:And how did they -
stephen barden:How did they treat you in that basement? What were they? Were they rough?
Sofia:People were dying in that basement. We stayed with dead bodies. (SB:They were dying and they didn't move the bodies?). No.
stephen barden:And they were dying because of of of what?
Sofia:We had like an elderly man. I didn't know that him before. I haven't spent a little bit of time in there. He was injured during the shelling. He has a bleeding knee and he was literally slowly dying in there.
stephen barden:And they left him there. Yes, I think you told me sometimes that you also broke your arm.
Sofia:Yes, yes, someone told them that my husband is in an army. Yes, someone wanted to escape, maybe torture him or just like we are talking too much. He said that my husband is in an army right now and they wanted to know his exact location. And we have the rule that the phone are switched. They are not using the when they are on the front line, they are not switching on the phones so they are trying to reach him and it was impossible. And one of them broke my hand.
stephen barden:To try and get you to tell them where they.
Sofia:Yes, they were sure that I can tell them the address.
stephen barden:So after 29 days - (Sofia: we were de-occupied,) you were released.
Sofia:Yes.
stephen barden:And how did they then leave? (Sofia:They ran away actually.
Sofia:They ran away One day. It was like it was one day In the morning they were here by lunch empty.
stephen barden:So when did you leave the Ukraine?
Sofia:you leave the Ukraine.
stephen barden:And why? Because your mother is still there. She won't leave, right?
Sofia:No, I stayed in the city. I helped her to the hospital. I was trying to start working again, but it's not that easy now. It's possible, but not that easy now. And I stayed for a few months. I did nothing. I had no idea what I meant to do. I was very angry, it's you. I actually was angry over everything why people are alive, why everyone around me. This was like what that was. Then I went to my mom. She lives 15 kilometers from the Navy Air Base, 60 kilometers from the nuclear station, and one day I realized that the plant which is across the road from her.
Sofia:During the Soviet Union era it produced the details for military helicopters and when that thought struck me, oh and yes, they are shelling that airport like every week. Now they are looking for the F-16 in Ukraine and the pilots. They are trying to kill the as many pilots as they can. And I was like begging her to leave, but my grandmother said no, I'm not going anywhere. We are so and my brother is serving and I can't tell my mother if we are leaving. She will stay for sure.
Sofia:I stayed with her from October, november, December. E nd of October, I believe, yes, end of October till end of January, and for that month's we had no electricity at all, like not just the house or the street, but the whole region. And when the whole region is out of electricity, we have no mobile connection, no internet, nothing. You are going back to like ice age. You can't work, you can't look for work, you can't do nothing literally. And it was clear to me that I need to move, I need to do something, I need to go somewhere. I just took a train and go. I didn't plan it, I didn't expect to hope for something. I just realized I need to start moving because I have them, I need to take care of them, I need to have life to take care of them.
stephen barden:So you came to Germany? (Sofia:Yes), by train.
Sofia:By bus, by train, I've got to Poland. I've stayed for three days in there, but I didn't feel like staying there. I visited a few cities. It's not with me when I come somewhere. I do understand if I can live here or not. And in Poland it's good, it's nice and tidy and clean and its not that versatile . And I do understand Polish. Do you understand? Yes, which is important. It should have been, yeah, but I just didn't feel like staying, so I took a bus to Berlin. I arrived here on 8th of February.
stephen barden:So since then you've . You'reworking hard, correct? (Sofia: yes), and you're still housed with other refugees.
Sofia:Yes, it's a refugee camp at the airport At the old Tegel Airport. Yes.
stephen barden:You said earlier that you were angry, and all the anger because of what had happened to you. And those feelings, of course, why is everybody else alive? And my husband is dead. Have you been to the trauma centers here? Because there are trauma centers.
Sofia:Yes, there is trauma centers and there is private doctors that offer help, and from here, all of our experience seems like a movie, like a book you're reading.
stephen barden:Somebody else's story.
Sofia:You don't believe it. You don't believe that one human might do it to another human. For them it's a horror story, mostly impossible For that. And my story is like an easy one, because we have those from Mariupol and I don't know how it's even possible to retell it, when kids were seeing their parents dying with them and parents were burying their kids in their garden.
stephen barden:Interesting, because a lot of the stories from refugees who come here from Africa, for example from I interviewed somebody last week from the Congo and he saw his father literally cut up in him and killed. His mother was raped, etc. And so those refugee centers, the trauma centers, have experience of that, because they talked to them, they tried to sort them out. So it's interesting that you felt there was no connection right, there was just no understanding of the reality because they couldn't. So are you continuing with the treatment? No, no, no. How do you cope?
Sofia:Maybe with me it's easier. I do know that my relatives need me. I do know that Actually I provided them with a good life before. My mother and my grandmother worked hard all their life Like it was like day and night, non-stop. And when they became elder and I was working, I had a great salary. I was gladly doing everything I could. It's not I have to. I would like them. I would like them. In our tradition, you help, sure, and it's hard life. My mom never stopped working even for a day. She went for work. She had kids. She had householding. A huge one.. She had cattle at home she still had. It's easy not to do nothing. It's easy to grieve. It's easy I would like to To do nothing but to grieve, to do nothing but to dive into this.
stephen barden:But you have a purpose. That's what you're saying. You have a purpose.
Sofia:And now also Ukraine needs my help. I'm working, I can donate, I can help. So, and it's important now, today. Then, when it ends, we can grieve as much and as deep as we want to. Now, if we all will start grieving and there are thousands, of hundreds of people to grieve if we all started now, this moment, all the country will have to move out, literally to the last person in there. And one of my friends said, like, why, why don't you leave? Why Just leave, like 40 million to go in where? Oh, that's so many of you, yes, so many of us. And I have never understood alcoholism before. I was like how can you, how can you, how can you waste your time? How can you ruin your health? And now I do understand it. I understand it. Yes, it's great. When you need nothing, when you want nothing, when you whole, believe or expect nothing, you're just drinking. That's probably so good.
stephen barden:I hope you haven't tried it.
Sofia:No Good, no, no no.
stephen barden:I think we'll end there. Thank you very much. Thank you, that's lovely. That was Sophia, a refugee from Ukraine now living in Berlin, but the story doesn't end there. Since recording that conversation, late in 2023, sophia's grandmother died, and not long after that, their home was destroyed by a bomb and Sophia's mother has finally been persuaded to join her daughter in Germany. So this story continues, as does the story of all refugees and migrants. If you've been a little moved by this podcast, please follow the show and tell your friends. I'm Stephen Barden. This is Migrant Odyssey.