Stellah Nikuze is the daughter of Rwanda genocide survivors. Born and brought up in the Kyaka 11 refugee camps in Uganda, she has emerged as a fierce advocate of refugees and the voiceless.
Educated in classrooms with more than 100 children per teacher, she co-founded the Hodari Foundation which focuses on feeding, skilling and healing traumatised children in Uganda.. Now at university in Canada, Stellah turned that fierceness into working with the UN and other world bodies to fight for the rights of refugees wherever they are .
Refugees, she reminds us, are punished twice: first by the warring factions that drive them away from their homes. And then by the host countries who will not let them work and integrate in their new societies.
Stellah Nikuze is the daughter of Rwanda genocide survivors. Born and brought up in the Kyaka 11 refugee camps in Uganda, she has emerged as a fierce advocate of refugees and the voiceless.
Educated in classrooms with more than 100 children per teacher, she co-founded the Hodari Foundation which focuses on feeding, skilling and healing traumatised children in Uganda.. Now at university in Canada, Stellah turned that fierceness into working with the UN and other world bodies to fight for the rights of refugees wherever they are .
Refugees, she reminds us, are punished twice: first by the warring factions that drive them away from their homes. And then by the host countries who will not let them work and integrate in their new societies.
Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey Stories of and about migrants of all kinds. People seeking a better life, people fleeing an unbearable one, all, I suspect, wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries. My guest today is Stellah Nikuze, born in the Kiyaka-11 refugee settlement in Uganda, she's a co-founder, together with Janvier Hafasha, an earlier guest in this series, of the fabulous Hodari Foundation, and is now a social work student at the Wilfred Laurier University in Canada. Stellah is also a member of the refugee advisory group, part of a global consultative initiative by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and in February 2024, to top it all, she was also appointed a board member of the World University Service of Canada. I opened the conversation by asking Stellah to tell me something about her parents and the circumstances under which they left their home country of Rwanda.
Stellah Nikuze:Well, I wouldn't say I know much because I have never been to Rwanda. What I know is all about history. I don't know that I was a genocide between the Tutsis and the Hutu, so the government, the RPF, overtook the government of late President Juvenal Habyarimana(?), so all those created internal and external conflicts within the country. So that led my parents so flee to seek for international protection in Uganda. So them meeting I don't know that much. What I know is that they made themselves in the refugee camp, married them, gave birth to me. So concerning how they met, I don't know. I don't know much about how they met in terms of their relationship, but I know they made themselves in Uganda, gave birth to me and also my other siblings. Thank you, Okay, okay.
stephen barden:It's always interesting for me to ask that question because people who have gone through traumas there's quite a, there's almost a pattern. People who have gone through large traumas tend not to tell their children very much, and we found that we find that in quite a lot of cases, they tend not to tell their children very much about what happened to them because they don't want to upset their children. Was that something about? Was there something in that with your family as well, that they don't? Your parents didn't tell you very much about what they went through.
Stellah Nikuze:Of course, things concerning tribal conflicts. Parents don't tend to share so much with their children because even themselves, I think there are many Rwandese who are traumatized, and also the children they give birth to. They become traumatized and because of internal fears, they will not want to extend their trauma to their children. They wish to give the best to their children. So, even though my parents will not go ahead and share more of the political sufferings and the other internal and external sufferings but I know there are so many fellow Rwandese who would not want to explain that because of what happened in the country and it is not that all those challenges got to be solved, it was not. It wasn't solved Even now, people have their internal fears, even though people are out of the country, or they decide by having their own fears that they would not want to really extend to their children, but what they wish is the well-being of their children.
Stellah Nikuze:So for the, for my mental health and my well-being, I think our parents, all my parents, would not want to go into much of what happened because it causes intergenerational trauma. It's what I should say. Those challenges are there and they're still there, but for the well-being of incoming children they try to see, to preserve, like, to reserve themselves in terms of what they're sharing and creating I would say everything, what, done everything, what everything is now okay, but it is not okay because as a matured as a matured I should say, lady, you're doing shoshuak and also being more navigation into human rights, political rights. It is not okay. People have their internal wounds which are unhealed, but they tend to resolve all that for to see how their children can either pursue their career and face the world by themselves.
stephen barden:Yeah, yeah, now I understand that, I know that and I understand that it's interesting for me because of my the work that I do as well that a lot of research has shown that where parents, although they're trying to protect their children when they're being through trauma so this, this is studies back during the Second World War, when parents of survivors of Holocaust camps, plus parents of survivors of the Palestine catastrophe and parents of survivors of Rwanda and the Congo, et cetera, et cetera yes, they have they follow that pattern of trying to protect their children from their own trauma. But of course, as you know, there is this saying in psychology you know what we, what we don't tell our children, we make them feel. So you, I assume, could feel the anxiety, the tension, the worry, if you like, that your parents were not expressing, that could not express. So I suppose my next question to you on this one is what was it like growing up in a refugee camp and did you feel safe as a child? Tell me what was that like?
Stellah Nikuze:Growing up in the refugee camp is hard and when I put myself in the shoes of refugees, the refugee camp may be worse than home country, the back home country, because the only support they have it is from world food programs. That's why they get food, survival. The monthly stipend, I should say the monthly support they give them, is not enough. There is no hope in the refugee camp. Mental illness, illiteracy, gender-based violence is the order of the day. There is human trafficking. Girls are being trafficked to go and work -to survive. There is early marriages.
Stellah Nikuze:So me growing there, I didn't see anything that is very beneficial in the camp. The people who suffer in the refugee camp were worse than how they were then back home Because even though people suffered for example Democratic Republic of Congo the country is rich People, even though they couldn't go to school, but they had food There are people in the refugee camp who eat once a day, others they don't have lunch to eat. So I have been in the environment where I'm seeing all those challenges. Girls and women are the highest point. We face so many challenges because the women empowerment is less and also the support that comes from other United Nations high commission for refugees is not enough, isn't enough.
stephen barden:Now, you've told me all about the refugee camp. You've told me nothing about yourself. You know that, don't you? You've told me all because and I understand what you're saying You're saying that it was terrible and etc. And you were fighting for you're appealing on behalf of your fellow refugees, but you've told me nothing about you, and I want to know about you. I want to know. Let me just ask some simple questions here. So you went to school in the camp or outside the camp?
Stellah Nikuze:In the camp.
stephen barden:Okay, and what was that like? What sort of school was it? It was a public school, primary school and secondary school. And you did, and how many kids were in the class? How did you do in school?
Stellah Nikuze:Well, I went to a public school and in the class we were 120 students with one teacher and that public school, I would say English was at that, compulsory at school, we used the local language, but that is the education that I could afford.
stephen barden:Sure. So the language you used was what? Was it Kiswahili, or what was the language? Or was it the Rwanda language? What was, what were you?
Stellah Nikuze:It was before. It was the Runyoro, Rutooro. It was because I was studying the western part of Uganda. It was , so from primary one to primary three was studying in . That's what you called studying. Then it was from primary four to primary seven. Well, we started studying English. So that I see as a challenge to me, even though I'm born in the country, because, well, they studied in that language. Well, it is for the system within the government or the system within the, I should say, the district. But at the end of the day, english became hard and I had my friends who had come from DRC and Rwanda who could speak French, so they were also introduced to that local language. And then from that local language we fell into English. A little bit of grammar became a problem, if any, in writing or reading. So, stella, sorry to interrupt, so when you were doing this education?
stephen barden:what exams were you aiming at? What was the curriculum? So did you do the research? What was the curriculum? So did you go and do exams I don't know a specific government exam to finish primary school and then went into secondary school and what did you do there? Did you do a school leaving certificate, a-levels, o-levels, baccalaureate? I don't know what sort of what were they expecting of you.
Stellah Nikuze:Of course t here is primary leaving examination, that I did. So I studied until primary seven and I started for my primary education. But I excelled it because even though I was coming from a humble background and my parents could not afford scholastic materials, but in all means I tried and excelled at school. I was always among the best students. But others failed because the support was not enough. There was limited resources at school and so girls went into marriage those who are a little bit older than me.
stephen barden:so I'm getting the picture in terms of where you were in this and also the fact that there's here. You have a camp where the government of Uganda and the United Nations and various other agencies are doing their best, but it's clearly not enough. It is not enough. Can one farm land in the camp? Is there enough land for people to grow crops and things like that? Is it enough? How do people actually try and make money in addition to what they're given as the stipend?
Stellah Nikuze:That is nowhere to make money because being in the refugee camp What would they give the money? The space of what they're staying is not enough. people leave , the refugee camp. We go and do agriculture in the host community. They dig for food, the host community to survive. And also the small initiatives that say maybe you can give you a startup capital. There is not much orientation about it. So very few, few. It's kind of about 2% of refugees who start up businesses in the refugee camp.
Stellah Nikuze:And this is not for everybody. Because even those who are confined, who have the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, who have, who have, who have, who have excelled in their careers back home, when they're in the refugee camp they're not considered to have their jobs because the system is changed so that keeps them in the group of being poor. There is no way they get monthly support. If each person gets, say, five dollars Canadian dollars per month, there is no way they can have any other income-generating activity. The agriculture they do, they grow tins around around home. How many tins that can grow are maybe hectares of food. It's not there. So the only hope they have is through the World Food Program and the United Nations. So that's why, the end of the day, many gender-based violence would feel to be there, because girls would be alive so that they can participate in two other sexual activities doing child labor, work, so they can survive. So there is no room for that.
stephen barden:In other refugee camps, and I think there is something of that in the one in Uganda as well, but certainly in other refugee camps. People that I have spoken to on this series talk about growing crops and, yes, they don't necessarily. Some of them make money out of it, but others will do a barter system. So if I'm growing mahindi , if I'm growing maize, then you know, and you're growing vegetables, we will exchange so that we can actually keep going. Does that happen in Uganda or not? That sort of barter system to keep things going so people can survive? Is that possible and does that happen? And then I want to go into and talk about, clearly, the gender-based violence and also your work with the Hodari Foundation.
Stellah Nikuze:There is no land. The land they get through the support. Maybe where they pattern with the host community, they give them a little bit of land where you can dig for one season and that's it. So you cannot exchange what you don't have. You have to exchange what you have.
Stellah Nikuze:Refugee camps are different. You know there are so many refugee camps in Uganda, but the camp that I came in - Kyaka Refugee settlement- people are many in the refugee settlement. I'd give an example. My parents are no longer on support of World Food Program because they have stayed more than 20 years in the refugee camp. They are not practicing agriculture because there is no land and there is no hopes to serve. Maybe they're going to be settled.
Stellah Nikuze:So tell me what is the hope of those parents? What about the children they're giving birth to? But what is the way forward for them? So those are things that runs into our mind. These people are not returning back to their home country because they have their internal and external challenges that are scared of political issues, economic issues and other social issues that are scared of. In the refugee camp, they're not getting any support from World Food Program. So what is the hope of these people? I don't see anything like hope. It's all about staying in the refugee camp and I don't know how they only survive. They just survive. They just survive the work that they're surviving like that. But there are millions of refugees who are in such a kind of situations. They would really wish to do that, they would really wish to run their businesses, they would really wish to participate in so many activities, but they don't have where to start from, they don't have where to begin from and other initiatives that come to support. They don't have enough resources.
stephen barden:You asked where is the hope? You did, however, try and create a hope, didn't you? With Hodari? . So tell me - And we've interviewed Janvier Hafasha on the series, as you know, I hope, and we know what he was doing, but I'd like to know something about you as co-founder, what you were trying to do and what you did, and the hope that you created as well.
Stellah Nikuze:Well, I've been the co-founder - so I am passionate about women empowerment. So in Hodari we basically focus on livelihood and education. So in livelihood we do teach women, men and youth on how to grow mushrooms because we analyze there is a challenge of malnourished children, pregnant mothers and elderly too in the society. So starting up mushroom mushroom project it is to empower these people with the skills on how they can grow mushrooms because mushrooms comes from husks. It is gathering a little bit of husks during fermentation and all things. Then it comes out of it. So since in the refugee camp there is no land, they have a little bit of the land.
Stellah Nikuze:We group them and they make up mushrooms. They can sell and have a little bit food. They can have food, they can come from a national independent and it gives a little bit of hope to them. So we also have a "she's empowered project. I'm really passionate about that. We do train 15 to 20 girls over a period of three months. They graduate in tailoring and find out on how they can partner with either factories or any other tailoring shop - ta iloring I should say designs where they can go and work and amazing.
stephen barden:Sorry, so that's tailoring. Did you say so they sew and they design and they cut. Yes, yes, yes and are they then allowed to go and work outside the camp with those skills? Is it allowed in Uganda or not?
Stellah Nikuze:It is allowed, but if, through a procedure, you have to make a partnership between the office prime minister and UNHCR NGO and but it's not so much allowed. But within the refugee camp, the opportunities we call the some, most people who come do their business in the refugee camp and who have days for market where they come and work. So it's all about partnership. And also we send a call from different secondary schools and primary schools where they can make for them uniforms, uniforms, and we supply for them.
Stellah Nikuze:So that's how girls and women have been able to survive through what they are.
stephen barden:So there's the mushroom project, there is, which is the growing project, there is the skills training project for young women, correct?
Stellah Nikuze:Yes.
stephen barden:And what are the other things that you would?
Stellah Nikuze:do when they come. We do have. We design different activities to do over the weekend and through having those activities we look at those children. Of course one should become whom they are. We're doing more of leadership training, teaching children how to have confidence in themselves. So having that children of course come on the ground and they share their thoughts and their feelings and how they would feel and what they want to do Like in the future.
Stellah Nikuze:What do you want to study? Because we analyze children who are being groomed by hopeless parents, parents who have made oneness challenges children. They get traumatized because when you wake up in the house there is no food and you see your parents are unhappy, you as well, child, you can't be happy about it. So having that it is called a self-space, while have a professional counselor who does case intake to assess on how this child is feeling, how this child want to be supported, even though we do not have much support. But we try a little bit as a refutalistic initiative to do more of a partnership with other agencies within the refugee camp. We refer to them for further counseling but as on the ground, we try to create that self-space for them to have a room on where they can express their thoughts and feelings and what they want to be in the future.
stephen barden:Okay, and how do you, in an environment like that, how do you promote not just the idea, but the whole model of women empowerment?
Stellah Nikuze:It is challenging. As I said, it is challenging and it requires more of passion and commitment. But, however, there is a trained Lady called Asa (?), where we had to hire a room, a room for training, and we do more of awareness and advocacy within the community. So through the advocacy in different villages and the societies, that's where we get to know those girls, but we get through them in terms of we don't do things by ourselves. We're always in touch with the United Nations High Commission for refugees and child protection department, as well as the local leaders I would say we call them the local community leaders, whom we also engage. So when we have a shared meeting, we spread the word and they go back to the roots, because it's always going back to the roots and analyze where are. are the challenges coming from. And those are the exactly leaders who recommend the students or those girls who can come out. I would say that to get a training, yes.
stephen barden:And actually a lot of your work, then, seems to be sort of raising awareness amongst the people within the community, not just the women, isn't it Because it's ironic, isn't it? Because Africa has had so many strong women who have taken huge leading roles in political struggles, in warfare, in all those things, and yet they still, as in the rest of the world, they still suffer from the discrimination against them. I was thinking about the other day the number of women who, if you look at certainly during the political liberation struggles, women always took a leading role, always took a very strong role, and yet they remain strongly discriminated against. You got yourself a scholarship, didn't you, to go to the university, I assume in Canada. Is that correct?
Stellah Nikuze:Well, there is an NGO called World University service of Canada. It's called WUSC. It is a non -profit organisation that works in partnership with the Canadian government. So they do approach all talented refugee youth who have the ability to give back to their societies. So as I graduated from high school from Kona Sondership Academy, I was back in my community doing normal work with Hodari Foundation. So World University Service of Canada in partnership with the Window International Uganda, they advertised they wanted student to come and pursue their bachelor's degree in Canada. So I applied, got interviewed and that's when I was able to be resettled to Canada.
stephen barden:How nice, yeah, and that was when.
Stellah Nikuze:I applied in 2020, during that COVID time, 2021. So 2022, in August, that's when I came to Canada.
stephen barden:And have you been back to Uganda at all during that time?
Stellah Nikuze:No no.
stephen barden:Tell me what it's been like for you in Canada.
Stellah Nikuze:Of course everything is not easy, but at least there is a room of youth to stand and speak your mind. In Canada, human rights is I would say it is not 100%, but at least 85% is respected. So there is social justice within the country and there is a room for those who can stand up and advocate for the others. So, even though that those are political challenges the effect of climate change, globalization but as a refugee and as I speak I've joined the refugee advisory board I'm seeing there is a little, a much space I would say enough space or a room where I can stand and speak for the marginalized and the people who are ready to listen and support and support to change the world.
stephen barden:Yes, Stella, what is the refugee advisory board?
Stellah Nikuze:So refugee advisory board specifically, it bridges between United Nations and the refugees, so they always select refugee lady leaders who have the passion and want to advocate for their fellow refugees in terms of analyzing their challenges and also giving advice on the resettlement procedures.
stephen barden:Yes, and that's for Canada right.
Stellah Nikuze:It is not Canada only, it is global. So we are advocating for refugees globally.
stephen barden:And how often do you meet and how do they seek advice and how are you able to give advice?
Stellah Nikuze:We do meet once in the month but as we come from different countries, we have different experience of different perspectives, so we have different challenges.
Stellah Nikuze:But when we meet around the table, there is a created room where we discuss those challenges and also we partner different countries. I would say for this year, we are in hand with the Australian government in terms of analyzing their policies and how are the resettlement policies going to support the immigrants in Australia. So us, coming together as people of the same like mind, we are to analyze what the challenges are and how are the immigrants in these countries being supported even Australia, canada, us and other various countries so as we are refused from all those corners of the world, we meet together and analyze how can we do it and what can we forward on the table with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. So that is what we're looking into. I've not gone much deeply in it because I've just joined and this is my one month with that group, so but I am hopefully that further a lot of changes are going to be coming and I'm looking ahead on how I can create a global advocacy so that the voice of the marginalized can be heard.
stephen barden:Yes, congratulations, congratulations. That's very good news. What are your plans when you've finished your degree and do you want to continue studying, or have you got plans to do more work elsewhere?
Stellah Nikuze:I still have my passion for my community. But why is it that there's so many challenges at the root level? Maybe things will be done at the high level and they don't reach at the root level? Services could be there, but when they reach middle, meeting the middle, they don't go at the lower level. So at once, how do we analyze the system at the global level and extend it to the local level? That is the bridge.
Stellah Nikuze:I would want to learn by myself and also join the same like-minded people and say how can we create ways to see that what the government either the government of Canada or any other government they are planning to do, how are they going to reach people at the local level? It may not be Uganda or Uganda or Africa, but it may be only refused by being resorted to Canada. It's not that everything is perfect in the country, but they also have their own challenges that they're going through, but they don't have somebody to stand up and speak for them. But since I have been part of so many experiences and also I'm still going through a lot of experiences here in Canada, I feel there is a room that I can speak for the voiceless either, these new immigrants in Canada and other people back in Uganda, grc and other African countries. Thank you.
stephen barden:Many countries do not allow refugees to work. Would you be a supporter of a change in policy so that refugees were allowed to work and to integrate within the third party country as soon as possible?
Stellah Nikuze:That is my prayer and that is always my motivation, because refugees are being put in the way that they cannot work and that has lowered their dignity and their values. The well-excellent, hardworking refugees who have the passion to change the world and I would be one of them. If I would not have attained education, I would not be here. But because through the passion, the patience in school, that is why I am a enrolled here at the university. So that is something to look into.
Stellah Nikuze:That should be changed, because me being a refugee, I did not call it to be a refugee. I did not cause war in my country. It has been political challenges. If the country is being led by a dictatorship leader, I am not the root cause of that. So the government should not extend the punishment to me, who is a refugee, yet I am not the root cause of the problem. However, they should create a space where my voice is to be heard and a room where I can express my feelings and also have a right to be in the third country, because it is my right to be in the third country. So that is something I would really want to advocate for.
stephen barden:Thank you very much. Thank you very much for being on this podcast and I wish you more than all the luck, all the strength, all the blessing to do all the good work that you need to do.
Stellah Nikuze:Thank you.
stephen barden:My guest today has been Stella Nikuse, born the Kiaka 2 refugee settlement in Uganda and now living, studying and championing refugees from Canada. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please follow us from wherever you usually listen to your favourite shows. I'm Stephen Barden. This has been Migrant Odyssey.