Life on the West Bank is upside down for Palestinians. They have little of rights on their land that they have lived on for centuries. The towns that they do live in cannot grow because they are being strangled by encroaching Israeli settlements. East Jerusalem, internationally designated as the Palestinian capital - is not. A journey that should take minutes takes hours and hours. The places where the are supposed to be safe - are not.
It is, says today's guest Firas, like Maqluba - the beloved Palestinian upside down dish. Except it isn't. Unlike Maqluba,living on the West Bank is neither tasty nor beloved.
This episode is co-hosted by Zoya (our half Palestinian half Ukrainian guest from episode 9) who brings her compassion, with and experience of, the Palestinian tragedy to a thoughtful discussion that ranges from Firas' personal story to questions of decolonizing minds and managing conflict where laws and governance do not apply. And it ends - as so many of our stories do - with the ties of the heart: those profound emotional bonds that define what it means to truly belong "with" a place and its people.
Life on the West Bank is upside down for Palestinians. They have little of rights on their land that they have lived on for centuries. The towns that they do live in cannot grow because they are being strangled by encroaching Israeli settlements. East Jerusalem, internationally designated as the Palestinian capital - is not. A journey that should take minutes takes hours and hours. The places where the are supposed to be safe - are not.
It is, says today's guest Firas, like Maqluba - the beloved Palestinian upside down dish. Except it isn't. Unlike Maqluba,living on the West Bank is neither tasty nor beloved.
This episode is co-hosted by Zoya (our half Palestinian half Ukrainian guest from episode 9) who brings her compassion, with and experience of, the Palestinian tragedy to a thoughtful discussion that ranges from Firas' personal story to questions of decolonizing minds and managing conflict where laws and governance do not apply. And it ends - as so many of our stories do - with the ties of the heart: those profound emotional bonds that define what it means to truly belong "with" a place and its people.
Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey stories of and about migrants of all kinds People seeking a better life, people fleeing an unbearable one, all, I suspect, wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries. Today, not only are we continuing with our series on Palestinians, but we're doubling down because it's just too important, frankly. So joining me as our co-host in this conversation is Zoya, my wonderful half-Palestinian, half-ukrainian guest from a few episodes ago, who I always tell her could have chosen her parents more safely, but certainly not as well. Zoya and her mother left the Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon for the safety of you guessed it Ukraine left that, and since then has been traveling in more places than I care to think about as a peace ambassador. Welcome, zoya, over to you to introduce our guest today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for this beautiful introduction. Hello everyone, today we have a very special guest from West Bank, palestine, firas Firas is here with us today as the founding curator of the Global Shapers Beit Lahem Hub. Firas is here with us today as the founding curator of the Global Shapers Bethlehem Hub. Firas spent most part of his life in West Bank and today Firas, of course, will share with us how was it to grow up in the West Bank under the Israeli occupation, and currently he's doing his master's degree in Italy. So, of course, we would love to know more about that as well.
Speaker 1:Firas, tell us something about you were born where. Tell me something about what that was like growing up.
Speaker 3:Okay, thanks for having me first of all. So I grew up in Bethlehem, between Bethlehem and Hebron, because I was born in Bethlehem, then my family was in Hebron. So I grew up for 18 years in Hebron, the south of West Bank. Then, in the very few years during the 90s, it was the good days after the Oslo Accords and there was like a light of hope everywhere in the West Bank and in Palestine, until the beginning of the 2000, with the second intifada, when people start understanding there is no solution because the other side is still stealing the lands, and I start to understand the situation during the second intifada. Intifada means catastrophe in Arabic. So I started to understand the situation seeing the occupation on the ground around me in my city and seeing my friends, family members, being injured or killed by the Israeli soldiers.
Speaker 3:Until the age of 18, when I had to start my university, and as any other young youth, I didn't know what to study. But I knew for sure what my parents wanted me to study and they decided to me business administration, and I just went to Bethlehem University. I studied there, but I never was in that field. I was very fascinated by the nonprofit NGOs and social work, so I finished my university and then I started working in that field. For the past eight, nine years now. I was working in this field with local and international organizations at the same time, covering from the occupation and the violence and what is happening on the ground, and currently I am in Italy. I moved to Italy to do my master's in conflict management and humanitarian actions at Siena University, and I left just one week before October 7. So here I am.
Speaker 2:Maybe I can ask because, as you now mentioned that you've left just a few days before October 7. So maybe we can ask you, firas, how are you doing today? Like really, how are you today?
Speaker 3:Well, it's. Sometimes you feel like it's a normal question. How are you? Yes, I'm fine, but I think nowadays not only Palestinians, but everyone who is following what is happening in Gaza especially you don't feel well Because there is something not normal is happening. At the beginning of the situation, for me it was okay one more war. It would be for a few days, maybe one month, but not more. But now, seven months of ongoing documented genocide. You start to feel numb, like you really don't know how to feel. At the beginning you have the shock, but then you start to see there is hope, there is no hope. There is hope, there is no hope. And you see the situation outside and being outside for me it's the first time like looking at the situation from outside. So I really like, I feel numb, you don't know how do you feel so and I think it's not only me, but it's like the general situation.
Speaker 1:You said, when you were talking about, you became aware of the, what was going on and during during the the first intifada, um, but you glided over it like a lot of like a lot of my palestinian guests do this this I saw my friends being injured and killed. Tell me something about what that was like on a day-to-day basis. And then, moving on, when you started working uh, you, I assume, worked outside bethlehem. You went to work in jerusalem. What was that like, getting to and from jerusalem every day? But let's start with, I want to know something about what it was like as a young boy, knowing that you had that, basically, the settlements were closing in. There were dozens and dozens and dozens of settlements surrounding Bethlehem and where you were. So you had that. You had the settlers. You had the army. What was that? Tell me something about that. I mean settlers. You had the army. What was that? Tell me something about that. I mean, how do you live a normal life?
Speaker 3:Like there is no normal life basically. So I used to explain to using some Palestinian food. We have a dish called makloube, which is like consists of meat and rice with fried vegetables placed in a pot which is flipped upside down, which is the meaning of makloube when it serves, and the situation is upside down, so everything is upside down. You want to go from Hebron to Bethlehem? You need to take a different road. Hebron to Bethlehem, you need to take a different road and we have roads, israeli roads, that it's called the rounded streets, and roads. You want to study? You can study in your city and it's difficult to go to another city. If you go to another city, you need to stay there. You don't have access to Jerusalem. The majority of the Palestinians living in the West Bank. They don't have access to go to Jerusalem. I mean the old city of Jerusalem, although we have the international law saying that East Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. How come? And then you look at the situation. There is ongoing settlement and the killing of the Palestinians on a daily basis, but you see the government is talking about peace and negotiation, so everything is upside down. So if you need, if you want to survive, and this is how we survive in Palestine, like we start to think in this way, upside down, because we have no other solution.
Speaker 3:So I finished my university and I started working with an international organization. I worked for three years and then I said it's nice, but it would be nicer if I managed to support creation of a local organization that can sustain itself. And I was really inspired by the idea of social business. So, with a group of youth, we created an organization called Eptekar, which means innovation in Arabic, and we start to teach young youth, especially at the high school, the concept of social business, how you can sustain yourself, how you can learn, what do you want to do in your life.
Speaker 3:But then I had the chance to work in Jerusalem with an Italian organization and that was my daily journey for two years crossing the checkpoint from Bethlehem to Jerusalem just for going to work. And in West Bank in general there is 11 Israeli checkpoints to enter Israel. If you have the permit and I was one of the privileged ones who got this permit to work with an international organization On a daily basis for two years, you need to wake up very early in the morning because you have the permit from six in the morning until 7 pm in the evening. They allow you to work in Jerusalem, or what's so called in Israel. You pay taxes for them. They deduct the pension from your salary, the insurance, but you don't benefit from anything.
Speaker 1:Sorry, just let me get that straight you pay tax, you pay insurance, you pay pensions, whatever are the health benefits, but you don't get the benefit.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. They gave you the permit to work. I work for an international organization based in Jerusalem and you have your salary at the end of the month, but they deduct from the salary taxes as any normal Israeli citizen, pension and insurance, but you don't benefit from anything. Okay, but also the crossing point, like when we call it crossing because we cross, but it's a military checkpoint, because it's like entering a new country. So you have the control or you need.
Speaker 3:You have a military control where around 50 or more than 50,000 Palestinians needs to cross every day because they cannot stay there. So every day in the morning, some people go at 3 am, some people go at 6 am because we need to cross and be in their work at 8 am. So we squeezed all together like thousands of people in the same place, same room, to cross using the facial recognition so they can check you are safe or not, even if you have the permit. And then you you go out of this checkpoint and you enter to what's so-called Israel, and it's the same when you go out like this is this is one checkpoint.
Speaker 1:Is that right? All one checkpoint in in each city.
Speaker 3:There is almost one. In the big cities there is one checkpoint In each city. There is almost one. In the big cities there is one checkpoint. So I used to cross from Bethlehem. There are one in Ramallah and Hebron, in the north of West Bank also. I used to cross from Bethlehem because I used to live there, and the one in Bethlehem one of the worst because it's really really small and many, many workers they want to cross in the morning. So basically we have a very nice joke that if you like, if you throw in the ground, you might die because it's really crowded and everyone wants to cross. So that was my journey every day in the morning two to three hours. You need, uh, to just for crossing, like crossing a door, basically, like you need to go from here to there, you spend three hours and phyllis?
Speaker 2:was it the same case for the inter international workers with whom you were working?
Speaker 3:no, actually, like I have my colleagues italian colleagues, they used to live in, some of them in in bethlehem, the the internationals they have their working visa from the israeli government so they can cross the checkpoint with the organization cars, so, without checking, like they check quickly and they pass, so sometimes, uh, like they cross in 10 minutes and at the same same time I wait for two hours. But we are the same people, like we work for the same organization, so it's also like challenging for the organizations and actually it's like they give a chance to Palestinians to work in Jerusalem so they have access to visit the city, palestinian to walk in Jerusalem, so they have access to visit the city.
Speaker 1:And just going back to the settlers as well, and to those settlements, how did they affect you? I mean, so the settlements were surrounding the town that you were in. Did they come into the town? Did they cause trouble? Tell me something about that.
Speaker 3:In the West Bank in general. The settlement it's a system because they build their settlements surrounding the cities. So the Palestinian cities cannot be expanded because there are settlements. And the West Bank is divided into Area A, b and C, and this is like it's boring, I know, but this is Area C, the majority of the land where Palestinians they live there but they don't have any control. Area A where is the Palestinian Authority control? And Area B it's in between. A where is the Palestinian Authority control and area B it's in between.
Speaker 3:And basically, the settlers, especially nowadays, they used to attack on the roads when you go from between cities.
Speaker 3:So there is attacks by the extremist settlers by throwing rocks on the cars or killing, because they have like if you kill a Palestinian you are a hero for them. Or they started recently to enter the villages, like many of our friends who live, for example, in surrounding Bethlehem, in the villages, or in Ramallah or in Hebron, the settlers, with the support of the Israeli soldiers, they start to in the villages, or in Ramallah or in Hebron, the settlers, with the support of the Israeli soldiers, they start to enter the villages, burn houses, burn cars, like, destroy things, destroy the olive trees, just to make people scared and leave, because it's a systematic ethnic cleansing. And now there is like around 700,000 Israeli. Because it's a systematic ethnic cleansing, you know. And now there is like around 700,000 Israeli settlers, which is illegal by international law. They live there and they try to make it connected by the so-called Israel, the state, and just today the Knesset just announced a new law the annexation of the southern part of Hebron to Israel.
Speaker 1:Formal annexation the formal annexation.
Speaker 3:It's by law now, and so now thousands of Palestinians who live in the southern part of the West Bank, south of Hebron we call it Masafaryatta they will be forced to leave because they will start attacking them again. There is ongoing attack, but now it will be escalated. At the same time, there is the ongoing attack on Jenin, on the north of the West Bank. So basically, what is happening in the West Bank nowadays is creating little gazes in the West Bank.
Speaker 2:Firas, if you can share with us more about creative resistance. You once mentioned that and I know that there are many young people in West Bank working, for example, on eco-resistance, where they try to plant trees with international volunteers, for example, in eco-resistance, where they try to plant trees with international volunteers, for example, in order to not allow the attackers to come in. So could you tell us more about what creative resistance means to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like, nowadays we all talk about the genocide since October 7, but it was happening since 75 years. And there is different type of genocide also, like, because there is ecocide, where they try to eliminate the nature, and there is cultural genocide where they try to, like, just destroy the, just destroy the, the touristic places and the ancient places. So basically they try to do ecocide. We try to do eco-resistance or eco-resilience, and I cannot really understand, if they really believe that this land belong to them, why they destroy all the trees. What's the problem between them and the trees like, if it's your land, you should protect it, right, any normal human being.
Speaker 3:But since the 1967, more than 800,000 or even more of the trees was destroyed or burned. Why, even in Lebanon, more than 400,000 of the trees was burned? Why, even in Lebanon, more than 400,000 olive trees were burned, why? So again, we use the so-called Makhlouba theory upside down. So we try to do this eco-resistance by replanting more trees, doing events on the land. We try to make our connection with the land stronger by doing events in our lands, by doing Dapke, by even making food through our vegetables and things. So this kind of activity is like, it is a resilience, not only resistance, but it's a creative way of resilience.
Speaker 1:So, which leads me straight on to this diversion, if you like a bit, is that the world, always, when we talk about Palestine, we first and foremost, even before October the 7th, was, you know, palestine. They talked about violence and conflict and oppression and division, et cetera, et cetera, but we hear very little about the culture of Palestine, the food of Palestine, the music of Palestine, the music of Palestine, the art of Palestine. How does that thrive? Does that thrive in these conditions, and how does it thrive? And tell me something about how, what that means to you, from the heart rather than from the head.
Speaker 3:Like in the weddings, for example, some people in the weddings, for example, some people in the weddings like they just we. We do the dabke all the time. We have the palestinian songs, the traditional ones, talking about the situation, in our weddings. It should be sad songs, but we dance on these songs, like when we have any kind of event directly, we have the Palestinian songs, the Dabke or the embrowderies. Now we do it in a modern way, not only the traditional way. This kind of thing comes out of pain, because the situation is really bad, but people have no choice. So, if you cannot resist by having your country's army, we resist by our food, by raising awareness about our culture, our history, and we also promote the coexistence because it's part of our culture.
Speaker 3:In the past, even before the creation of what's so-called Israel, palestinians lived with Muslims, christians and Jews. They were living in Palestine. The majority were Palestinians, were Muslims, yes, but they were living together. Coexistence is part of our culture. But what is happening now? Uh, the so-called israel with their law about, like it's a jewish nation only and it's only for the jewish people. You try to create this kind of ethnic cleansing for the? Uh, for the people who was born there? Who was living there?
Speaker 2:It's funny how the Israeli state they consider that they're doing this for the Jewish safety, and then you see thousands of Jews around the world fighting for a free Palestine. How can this narrative really? If you combine it together, it simply doesn't work. Firas, you mentioned a lot about the Palestinian spirit, and I think that is something that really makes the Palestinians really unique in this world. Nothing could kill their spirit. So, as a Palestinian myself, we always say that Palestinians teach us life. I'm really curious in what ways do the Palestinians in the West Bank teach the world life?
Speaker 3:For many years I used to have a problem with this situation because people start to feel normal to abnormal things, which drives me crazy how you can feel normal when you pass a checkpoint. It becomes normal to have these checkpoints in your daily life. But then I start to understand that this is our life, but this is how we resist, and for many years you live in your city, you are not able to communicate with people in another city in the West Bank, and you don't know anything about people in Gaza, because now for 17, 18 years, they are isolated there and there are 2 million Palestinians inside what's so-called Israel who didn't leave, and there are 6 million outside in Lebanon, like Zoya, in the refugee camps in Lebanon or in Syria, in Jordan or all over the world. But we have the same tradition and we feel there is a bond between Palestinians because we share the same pain and if you share the same pain, we feel that we are very, very connected. So whenever we meet anyone, me and Zoya we met like we don't know each other. We met a few years ago and we felt that we know each other since years.
Speaker 3:But going back to the question again, people have no choice, so they need to have this kind of resilience and I call it advanced level of resilience, especially in the West Bank, in Gaza, in Jerusalem. In Jerusalem they are really crazy. They are under the Israeli control fully. The situation is always intense in the old city of Jerusalem. I was lucky and I had the privilege for two years to have a chance to visit the city. But children in the old city they always like playing and singing, although they can see soldiers like passing by and they might be killed by at any time. But they keep singing, dancing, living because they know this is our land and this guy who's having the gun, uh, is a stranger and someday they will leave, like it's in our beliefs when you divide people like that I know you said there were they're united in pain.
Speaker 1:Not only are you separated, you're kept separate from other places in the West Bank, but you're kept totally separate from Gaza. I know you said you were united in pain. Does it create differences? Does it create cultural differences? Does it create differences? Does it create cultural differences? Does it create differences in, in, in, in approach and assumptions? Have you detected any of that?
Speaker 3:like, of course, and these are the consequences of the occupation, yeah, like they try to create this kind of division, um, but you don't feel that it's very. There is a big division because, for sure, the culture is a little bit different, because we have, for example, different accents, although Palestine is very small, but we have, like, different accents in Gaza and the West Bank and in Hepron and Bethlehem, bethlehem and Ramallah, people inside the occupied territories of 1948. But still we all dance Dabke. We have different kinds of Dabke, but it is Dabke. We have different kinds of Makloube, but still it is. For us it's a Palestinian dish, even the traditions in weddings. It's different between city to city, but still it is Palestinian.
Speaker 2:It's interesting how Firas views it from that perspective, because growing up for me as a Palestinian in Lebanon, I had a totally different perspective. I had, like some people telling me, like hey, zoya, you are not a true Palestinian because you're not struggling like those Palestinians inside of Palestine. And I grew up feeling guilty because I'm not struggling enough, despite all the struggles I was struggling in the refugee camp. I thought that I'm not a true Palestinian and I know, like, even like with the accent my accent is also somehow mixed with the Lebanese accent but then again, like as Firas mentioned, like when we met and we talked about our shared struggles, we understood that, hey, both of us are Palestinians, despite it's not like a competition between the struggles and our pure focus needs to be on occupation rather than on what are the things that differentiate the Palestinians.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's why it's important to have your own supporting system, especially the current situation. And one example is what we do at Waves to Home with Zoya. We created the Palestinian sharing circles, when we ask Palestinians from different parts of the world to come together just to talk, just to talk about how they feel within the current situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that support thing is very important, isn't it? I mean, I remember in my old days in South Africa how the exiles, the ANC exiles and the locals, you know, the people who stayed behind, there was always that feeling of, as I said, you know, are we suffering enough, are we not suffering enough? And it is that support, that community where you're able just to talk about things, where you're able just to discuss and bring them out in the open, that stops those divisions. Can I ask a very stupid I always ask a stupid question in the middle of these things, every single one of them, from my observations looking at countries or people that have been oppressed, the oppressed inevitably take on some of the behaviours and assumptions of the oppressor because, if you think about it, that's the model they've grown up with, objectively speaking. Is there a danger of that happening with Palestinians?
Speaker 3:To be honest, I really don't know. In Palestine, we all agree that we need to reach to that point, to a free Palestine. Whether you reach it by armed resistance, it's fine. If peaceful resistance, it's fine. By just talking about the situation, it's fine. If peaceful resistance it's fine by just talking about the situation, it's fine. By raising awareness, it's totally fine. So you have different, you have your own kind of resistance. You can choose whatever you want. But we know that the end point is we will meet there. We will meet there at the end free Palestine and we will make Makhlouba together. So but like I can't answer your question, I really don't know.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great question Stephen asked because I can relate to it, but from the perspective of a Palestinian in Lebanon, and maybe that's how maybe you can build the connection for us with the Palestinians in Palestine. And that's where my first thought came to mind, which is decolonizing our minds, because it can also be not in the forms of like violence, but it is also related to the language. For example, because of the French colony in Lebanon, so many Lebanese today speak, like we consider that in the same language, we can talk in Arabic, english and French, and that's something considered like you're from a higher class if you do that. So we say, for example, hi Kifak, ça va. And in a way, we talk about the power of decolonizing our minds. So sometimes, like, the colonies come, they bring their own cultures, their own language and then, without even us noticing, we start using them even after they leave. So maybe, like, is there in any form the israeli occupation trying to not only play on an external level but also on an internal level of the palestinian psychology? Maybe?
Speaker 3:like. Maybe there is two ways. First one for palestin Palestinians who live inside Israel, like these two and one and a half Palestinians, they are forced to learn the language because they need to go to schools, universities and to work, so they speak their language. But what I noted, we thought in the West Bank especially, like these Palestinians, they know the language, they have the Israeli citizenship, but because they forced to take it, so they try to change their mentality. But when I start meeting them, they are really connected with the Palestinian cause. Maybe they speak their own language, yes, but they know the reality, they know the truth, they know that this village and that village is mine, this village belongs to my friend's family. So I don't think so, but I can relate to our government, especially after the Oslo Accords.
Speaker 1:That's what I was thinking of mainly, yeah.
Speaker 3:I hope it will be fine. I am outside now.
Speaker 1:Stay outside yeah.
Speaker 3:No, but before 1993, I was born in 1993. But before that, what I used to hear, from my father especially, that the West Bank and Gaza was under the Israeli military control. So health, education, all services were provided by them and paid by them and it's their responsibility as the occupier, by them and it's their responsibility as the occupier. But since the 1993 for me, because I came from a business background, I think that the israeli, what they did, basically they did outsourcing for these services by bringing the blo, the palestinian liberation organization, to deal with these Palestinians who live in the West Bank and Gaza. And instead of paying to the Palestinian Liberation Organization, we bring something called emergency and development and the humanitarian and we let the international community pay to them. So it's a free outsourcing service.
Speaker 3:At the same time, the Palestinian Authority. They are responsible for the security, the security of the other side, but you cannot see it on the ground. They are responsible for the education, they are responsible for the health now, but the mentality, especially in the last 15 years, since the division between the two big parties, hamas and Fatah, they took over the government and there is no election. Government and there is no election. So now a whole generation, like people under 25 or even 30 years old, they never have their democracy activities like voting. They never vote, even in Gaza. These 70% or 50% of the children there, they know nothing. It was not their choice. Percent of the children there they don't. They know nothing. It was not their choice yeah, and that's, that's.
Speaker 1:that's, I think, what both, sorry and I were talking about this colonization of the mind as well, and and and of course itself the plo, if you like, or the government of under under the plo was allowed to to develop as an outsourcer, it inevitably will become corrupted. I was thinking when you were talking about, you know, because my early years were in Africa and so much of colonized Africa became, you know, dictatorships, quote unquote. And then people said how could these people become dictators? Well, actually they were living under a dictatorship, for, you know, since the 18th and 19th centuries they were living under a dictatorship. It was called an empire, it was either called the French Empire or the British Empire, and it was a dictatorship. So that was the model they learned. They, of course the colonizers, outsourced a lot of that stuff as well themselves. The colonizers outsourced a lot of that stuff as well themselves. And when they became, quote unquote independent, that mind, that colonized mind, remained corrupted and remained as a dictatorship, if you like.
Speaker 2:And it's taking a long time to get rid of that. It was a great question. Actually it's a great question and I think people need to talk a lot about decolonizing the minds, because we talk a lot about colonization but we don't cover a lot and we don't put much energy on talking about decolonizing it.
Speaker 3:This is basically why I left my job, because I had a very good job. I worked for an international organization, then I created a local organization, then I moved back to an international organization in Jerusalem, then I went back to international organization in Jerusalem, then I went back to work with my university, bethlehem University. But at some point I felt that I am part of that system that is doing nothing. So I decided, no, let's invest more in my education. And that's why I said, for the moment, I need to stop, because it was expected even before October 7, that the situation would explode at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Now, the work that you're doing and the studies you're doing now in Italy are on conflict, specifically, and in conflict in order to resolve. If you're working in conflict, you in order to resolve. If you're working in conflict, you do have to work, don't you, with assumptions, and if those assumptions are colonized, you have to break through or weave through or flow through, whatever way you want to look at it, in order to get people together. How do you aim on using what you're learning academically and what's your and your experience in in in your work on conflict resolution?
Speaker 3:it. It was not easy for me, especially like, uh, like I was seeing what is happening in Gaza and my professors like teaching me about international law and conflict management, but for me, in the Palestinian-Israeli context, like I don't like it's not a conflict between just two normal human beings, like a Palestinian and Israeli. No, it's not me against you, it's me and you against the occupation, against the oppression, against the genocide, against what is happening now on the ground. So this is how I look at it from that point of view. But at the same time, there is a pain inside, like when you see people teaching you about international law but you cannot, like it's not implemented, like there is a life example. It's not easy, but I think that's why we need to keep learning and it's part of our resilience also be the learning and education. And I believe that, as I mentioned, it's not me against you.
Speaker 1:It's me and you against the occupation yes, and the occupation actually if if you're talking about me and you, or whatever you're talking about to to is Palestinians talking to Israelis it is the occupation of both minds, isn't it? In many ways, it's the occupation of both psyches, it's not just the occupation of one. That's what I spoke about in the last episode we did together. When you oppress, you dehumanize not only the oppressed but you dehumanize yourself, and that's the strategy. So getting a lot of conflict management or conflict resolution, I think is based, or should be rooted, in the humanizing of the parties, of both parties. What are your fears? What is it that you value? What is it that you care about? What is it that makes you and I human beings together that we can break through, as you put it, the oppression, the oppression, yeah, yeah absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And it's a chain. By the way, I was just watching a video of a Palestinian woman and she was saying unless we are free, you are not free. So it's a chain where everyone is connected. No one is free until we are free as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's absolutely right. Do you see this ending? Do you see a resolution for us?
Speaker 3:Like, I'm a very optimistic person, like very, very optimistic person, although the current situation there is a genocide and we see what is happening, but, uh, I don't know, I uh I feel something good will will happen soon. So it could be a free palestine, but it could be something like. Something good is will will, uh will happen soon. I'm always optimistic, especially when I see these protests, especially from the young generation around the world, because in the past it was not easy to talk about the situation when you go outside because the antisemite they start criticizing you. It's complicated you. It's complicated. Now it's not really complicated, it's very simple and it becomes from a Palestinian or an Arab cause to a global movement and everyone is supporting the Palestinians, not because they love them, because they are human and it's the freedom, it's one of the humanity dignity you know. So I am very optimistic with the current movement all over the world and it will make a change. So I can see that will end. I don't know when, I don't know where, but I'm very, very optimistic.
Speaker 2:And also in the University of Siena. You also have mentioned that you have started with the encampment as well, right?
Speaker 3:Like all over Italy, not only in Italy, but all over the world now. But in my university they do encampment in the university and, like not Palestinian Italians, they go and they sleep there, just for a free Palestine. You go to Florence, you see the same. You go to Switzerland, to Geneva and to other universities it's the same. So it's a global movement now and this is what makes a change.
Speaker 1:And probably that's that's what answers your question. Sorry to interrupt. So that question earlier on was what is what? What is the Palestinian? What was it? The Palestinian way of life of the Palestinian resistance? What does it teach the world? And it's this has become, as you said, a global awareness, a global, global phenomenon. It is not. It is no longer, not even in the middle east. It's a global thing that you're talking about here, isn't it?
Speaker 2:one last thing from you, zoya, and then we'll hopefully end off on a happy note yes, I wanted to say, steven, like, uh, if you told us two years ago, when I met Firas, and we were sitting as Palestinians together talking about our stories, talking about, like, our shared struggles, if you came and told us like, hey, in two years there's going to be a global movement for Palestinians, we wouldn't have believed that. To be honest, like, no matter how hopeful we are, no matter how like we shout of a free Palestine, but this is something what's happening is very big and people need to focus on that Because, really, if you told us and you shared this with us, the images and so on we wouldn't have believed that. So this is something that's really really like hopeful Firas. Also, there is this question where I know that you always ask others about their definition of a home. Now it's our turn to ask you what is home to you?
Speaker 1:This was not expected. That's good. We like spontaneous questions.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:When we just talk about the word home, for me it's Palestine. For me it's where I grew up, For me where, despite the occupation, the situation, the settlement, I feel safe, like in Palestine, and I think this is where I feel home.
Speaker 1:Are you saying you feel safe? Your heart feels safe. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so not only mentally your heart, you feel safe, you feel like I belong to that land. So, despite the fact that my families are refugees, they moved during Nakba. I was born in Bethlehem, grew up in Hebron, I worked in different cities, I lived in different cities, I traveled a lot, but you feel you belong to that land and really, if you ask any Palestinian, they don't know why. They don't know why they love Palestine. We have no answer to this question, but we feel that this is our home. Even for Zoya, I think you never have been there.
Speaker 2:And never been out as well.
Speaker 3:But of course she feels connected to Palestine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's something about when you were talking about I belong to it. Somebody said, yeah, it's something about when you were talking about, I belong to it. Somebody said to me quite recently the concept of belonging with I belong with. And she was saying to me she belongs with this country, with this land, with this person Not to, but with. So it's not ownership, but it's actually I am part of it. It is where my heart is is where I it I belong in it, I belong with it.
Speaker 1:Philas, that was, that was wonderful. Thank you very, very much. I'm I feel privileged to have listened and I, um, and I love your optimism and I love your upside down. I just I think it's wonderful. Thank you so much. No-transcript.