Karen Read with Susan Zalkind

In this very special episode, we solve the Karen Read case! JK. We actually talk about what the obsession with this murder says about Boston, its suburban small towns, local media, law enforcement, and true crime. Offering her expertise is writer Susan Zalkind, author of The Waltham Murders: One Woman’s Pursuit to Expose the Truth Behind a Murder and a National Tragedy and contributor to VICE, The Daily Beast, The Guardian U.S., The Irish Times, This American Life, and Boston Magazine.

Have your own thoughts on Karen Read? DM me on Instagram, email me, or send a voice memo.

Exciting Whites.

Kim Costa and the Kelly's Roast Beef rap.

The one New Yorker feature I read on Karen Read, written by the incredible Jessica Winter. 

My favorite "true crime" writing: Strange Piece of Paradise: A Return to the American West To Investigate My Attempted Murder - and Solve the Riddle of Myself   

Dave Cullen's Colombine will change the way you digest every public act of violence.

Here is Susan on what Karen Read's case says about the state's homicide investigations

And here she is on NBC News.

Have feedback on this episode or ideas for upcoming topics? DM me on Instagram, email me, or send a voice memo.

Transcript

EBtM_Karen Read

[00:00:00] 

Hi. I'm Lee Staybridge. And welcome back to explain Boston to me. Let's do our quick refresher in August, 2022. I moved with my family from Philadelphia, my hometown to the Boston area. I've always prided myself on being the person who knows all the hyperlocal minutiae. I know that during the winter months Rittenhouse square, which is like the main fancy pants square in Philadelphia. 

It's a big green park, surrounded by fancy apartment buildings and a few old mansions. Is lit up with the most beautiful lights. There are these balls there in the trees. And you don't notice them during the day. And then when you're there at night, it's like, oh, They're very elegant. It's really, really a nice thing. 

And. Maybe I should save this for later, but where should I go to look at holiday lights here in Boston. Just the common doodling and similar. Probably question mark. And I know. That the Philadelphia Eagles. Who are now eight and two and one sixth street. If you're not keeping track. 

 Has a second Derry. D a I R Y. [00:01:00] Dairy We have two white guys in the secondary, a rookie named Cooper Dejean out of Iowa, and then re Blankenship who's our safety. Not to trigger everyone from the election. But remember when Camila was choosing her VP and there were all those memes about like exciting whites. People make the same jokes about the ex-players on the Eagles now. 

 And someone actually made these t-shirts is that exciting whites and had pictures of them. And the two players wore those into the stadium the other day. It's very funny. I don't know. I've been thinking a lot. Speaking of all of this. About why I care about sports because some people just don't, they just, they don't get it all. 

 And also why I seek solace in it when times are dark, like. I've been pumping the WIB, like I'm over here, I'm listening to Phillies sports talk radio on my Odyssey app. It's not an ad Odyssey. If you want to give me money, please give me money. even reveling in like being really doom and gloom and funny about the Sixers or having like the worst start to the season ever. 

But then the other night I was watching the Eagles on Thursday night football and everyone else, my house was [00:02:00] asleep and I was up late and in the fourth quarter they just broke the whole game open. 

And Saquon Barkley had these two incredible runs and I was literally. On the ground. Kicking my feet. Pumping my fist. In a state of like pure joy and ecstasy and surprise and euphoria. And I'm like in my adult life, when do I ever get to experience that? Truly. It's very strange. It's like, um, there's nothing childlike about it. And then of course, more times than not, you're actually dealing with the flip side and you're feeling bad and your head is near hands, all of that, but. I don't know what, just activate something and it's something I'm really leaning on right now. 

So this is all to say. The lovey goes, my psyche is in your hands. Please, please, please, please, please. I want that kind of deep knowledge in my new home. I want to know who in the Metro area makes the best approximation of a Philly cheese [00:03:00] steak. Even if they are calling it a steak and cheese. 

 My husband and the music supervisor for this podcast went to Carl's in Waltham today. This place is supposed to be very famous. It's supposed to be one of the best of the best, and this was what he texted me. Good for here. See, plus for Philly, steak was pre cooked. Very sus. So there we go. And I want to know. If there is any extra juice around Thanksgiving here. Like the whole Pilgrim thing. Listeners out there who were born and bred Boston Knights, new Englanders. 

Do you feel like you have special ownership over this holiday? Uh, or do we all just share it equally as colonizers? 

 So I'm asking for help. I am finding people to explain these things. To me, I'll never be a native, but I just might learn to speak the language. First off advertise on this podcast, as you will hear, I have a great new advertiser this week. Such a fun affordable way to spread the word about whatever you have going on, especially with the holidays coming [00:04:00] up. 

So please reach out to me, explain Boston to me at g-mail dot com, where you can even hit me up on Instagram at explain Boston to me. Quick programming note, I'm taking next week off for the aforementioned Thanksgiving. I will rerun an episode, but I don't really know which one yet. So you'll have to, you'll have to wait and see, but we'll be back the following week. 

I already have some great episodes in the pipeline. It's going to be lots of fun here in December. 

 Another quick update. I made baked beans this week. We did it. We did it from scratch. We use the Yankee magazine recipe. They were Bob. They were so good and. I'm not a pro at this, but we, there will be some content. There will be some video content. I just need to find some time and space in this very busy week to put that all together. 

So please keep an eye out for that. Share a widely. I mean these homemade baked beans, like you put that versus a can bake bean it's night and day. They were truly delicious and I highly recommend it. I saw someone on my Instagram DMA that they were making baked beans. Everyone should be making baked [00:05:00] beans. I will say we really have them as the main dish. I look forward to maybe having them next summer, like as a side. I think they might be aside. 

Even if people here disagree with me. Couple more things. Erin reached out to me on Instagram to tell me that there is in fact, a Vikings bar in Boston. I knew it, the Vikings fans, they travel, they take over it is seven 30 Tavern in Cambridge. I also got a great email from Josh who had some topics, suggestions. And also shared a couple of bits of local cultural ephemera that I just absolutely loved. One was an old YouTube clip from this woman, Kim Costa railing against college students back in 2014, apparently this went quote unquote viral. 

Quick reminder. All the college students that are coming back to Boston to further their. Higher education. This is really important. This is something you're going to carry with you throughout your entire academic career and the 607 area code. Uh, nobody likes you. Uh, you're a [00:06:00] visitor here, an interloper. All right. 

 I was reading a Buzzfeed story about this, and it said it's been viewed over 5,000 times. And it's like in this day and age, 5,000 times, even in those 10 years, You know, our scale of virality has really changed. And the other was a rap about Kelly's roast beef. Please keep sending these things to me. 

I really enjoy them. And I will put links to both of those in the show notes. Speaking of shownotes. I discussed a couple of articles and a few books that I really enjoyed in this episode, as well as the book by our guest, you will find links to all of those in the show notes. 

 And now it's time to talk about Karen Reed. I, this has been on my topic list for a very long time. I don't want to. 

Spoil any of the things in the episode about my context where Karen read, but just to say, there's not very much, I didn't know very much going into this. But just so you know, we solve the case. I'm just kidding. We don't solve the case. We mostly talk about what the case says about Boston, about the police, [00:07:00] about crime reporting, about murder trials. You know, all that metal stuff that we like to get into here. 

And I would really like to hear from anyone out there, what they think about this Karen Reed case, I mean, sure. I'll take your wild theories, but I'll also just take. Any insight on what the obsession with Karen Reed has revealed to you about Boston. Let's get going. 

Lee: Can you please introduce yourself and give a brief rundown on what you do and why you're qualified to speak on Boston culture and on this topic, Karen Reed in particular. 

Susan: . My name is Susan Zalkind. I'm a Boston area journalist. I'm from here. My family did the great, , Chelsea, Dorchester, Brookline, Newton migration.

And I've been covering, uh, criminal cases in the Boston area for more than a decade. I covered the Boston Marathon bombing, the Michelle Carter case, Bella Bond, my toe in Varsity Blues, and a number of other, , lesser and well known cases. 

Lee: Let's start with your psychology. Why? No, this isn't even on my discussion guide, but what do you think has [00:08:00] drawn you to pursuing this path in your career?

Susan: I mean, it wasn't really a choice for me, Um, I Complicated question. I'm sorry. It's okay. Look, I, I grew up in this world. I'm a daughter of a criminal defense attorney. who's tried, uh, more than 76 homicide cases in the Boston area. crime was a part of our life. We would listen to him practicing his opening statements, his closing statements.

This was in the early days before cell phones. His clients used to call our house. They used to visit our home. I. know a lot about crime. I started actively engaging in, uh, court coverage, discussing criminal trials, and really studying the, the strategy when I was, what, six or seven with the OJ Simpson trial.

Uh, my parents had thrown a big party, for a local journalist, Ken Hartnett, and, uh, dozens of his friends. And that was the day that OJ absconded, uh, down the freeway in the white Bronco. And I'd never seen [00:09:00] adults so excited, you know, a whole room full of journalists watching, the trial take place. And that's when I started discussing the case with my father.

you know, him and his associates would be doing commentary on the case, and I was, just trying to be a part of conversation, that was a case where you had, uh, O. J. Simpson, and then the key witness was Mark Furman, who was a detective that was found to be very racist.

So, I've been covering, or engaging in criminal cases before I, uh. I wrote about them as a journalist. I, um, was also attending criminal trials as a spectator with my family.

Lee: Well, we are certainly gonna get into the relationship between the police and crime in this conversation. Yeah. About Karen Reed. But that's very interesting. I remember the OJ Simpson trial I was in middle school art and they put the verdict on the radio and we all listen to the radio.

It was just one art class, which feels 

Susan: insane right in retrospect. So, it was one of those cases that everybody paid attention to. , I think [00:10:00] there's a difference between true crime and, , trial spectatorship, I guess, or analysis. with true crime, I think there's a real compulsion to, uh, Find a concrete answer. Right? And so when I think of myself, I think of myself as a journalist because the problem with true crime is the, I guess, inclination to, warp the narrative, to be conclusive when most oftentimes it's not.

Lee: Wonderful. Well, I'm just going to. Put this out there as a baseline. I do not consume a lot of true crime, number one. Number two, my only Karen Reed knowledge came from One New Yorker story,

Susan: Okay. 

Lee: Yeah. So I am really a blank slate here. And then I read this New Yorker story. I mean, this is like such a pretentious sentence. Like, oh, this story is captivating the city. And then I finally caught up with it when a national media publication wrote like an insightful sort of deep dive. And I was like, wow, this, there's a lot of meat on the bone here.

No wonder people are obsessed with this. 

Susan: Yeah, and I, I haven't really consumed a lot of true crime, [00:11:00] like I said, although I think there's one case, if you haven't heard of it, it's the, um, Jeffrey McDonnell case, right? actually 

Lee: I'm shaking my head no. I don't know 

Susan: about that.

I guess there's, so there's, there's true crime that's really kind of, conclusive. I guess another local true crime, producer would be Errol Morris, right? he used to come to our house and talk about, the Thin Blue Line, which is one of the stories. I've seen that. Yeah, so if you're thinking about, like, the Russian doll aspect of the Thin Blue Line, there was a murder in, I guess it was 1970, involving Jeffrey MacDonald, where a true crime writer wrote about that case, right?

and then another true crime writer, Janet Malcolm, wrote about how he approached that case, right? She has the line no, every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what's going on knows that what he's doing is morally indefensible.

Have you heard of that book, The Journalist and Murder? Okay. So then there was a true crime book, and then there was an author who wrote [00:12:00] about the true crime book, and then Errol Morris wrote about the author, who wrote about the author, who wrote about the true crime 

Lee: book, right? Mm. Mm. Yeah, that's, I love that.

Meta. 

Susan: So there's always, I think, like, different interpretations and, uh, vantage points to this work. I think there's a lot of ambiguity, my approach, to true crime has always been somewhat with that lens. 

Lee: Well, my favorite, and really, uh, I, again, have not consumed a lot of this, but my favorite piece of writing that could ever be called true crime is actually a memoir that's called A Strange Piece of Paradise about a woman who was the victim of a horrible attack when she was camping with a friend in Oregon, and then she goes back years later and is trying to figure out who did it and what happened, and that really You know, you have the true crime part, but you also have the memoir part and you also have, she's really talking a lot about culture and about the nature of small towns and about memory and you know, all of those things as opposed to just like the whodunit of it all.

Susan: I mean, true crime is [00:13:00] fascinating. 

Lee: Yeah. 

Susan: we talk about murder and we contend with murder for a reason. I do think there is a sense, Or a tendency for folks especially intellectual folks, to dismiss it as entertainment or, um, grotesque. But really, when you think about it, like, murder is like the foundation of a civic society, okay?

It's what separates us from, a natural society and feuding hordes. these really are important stories. And, I'm a sensitive crime reporter. I think that's actually my strength when I'm talking to people, uh, victims families or, others who are connected to this crime. But these stories are important, and I think they're very human reasons why we're , mesmerized by these cases and drawn to them and they do, , reflect, they're like focal point that reflects so many other different parts of our society and, uh, human behavior. 

Lee: Okay. Let's get into our girl. Let's get into Karen Reed. We'll What was your first exposure to this case? Do you remember when you first heard [00:14:00] about it, and when did you realize it was going to be big?

Susan: So I first heard about this story, in spring of 2023 over drinks with an attorney. the story may have like crossed the wire, you know, that just involving the death of a cop and in his, in a snowstorm and that his girlfriend was accused of hitting him with his car. But it didn't, it wasn't something that I had latched onto before this, right?

And, I guess at the time, to be frank, I was looking for the next big trial, I was asking around for cases where, we'd see some good lawyering, you know, it's, it's uncomfortable to talk about because these matters are very serious, but when you're watching a, trial, it's it's theater, It's also the law, it's strategy, and for the most part, when it comes to homicides these days, , there's a lot of gruesome murders, but when it comes to a trial where there is that degree of ambiguity, where a defense attorney can actually [00:15:00] make a case, they're few and far between these days, especially because we have, you know, cell phone evidence.

We have DNA. Um, so I was interested in, you know, what he thought the next big case was. And there were rumblings, I think this was before the first hearing where the attorney alleged that O'Keefe had been attacked by a dog, but there were rumblings around the courthouse that there was something there.

I was also drawn to this case because of my work investigating the Waltham triple homicide in Middlesex County. In which the victims were, drug dealers, they're marijuana dealers. But I'd found that local police had been involved in the same, drug ring as the victims. There were allegations of, police cover ups.

There were allegations, actually, that the cops were involved in another murder of a local cop named Gail Miles. The case was still unsolved, um, and I had, uh, I found disturbing evidence about why investigators didn't pursue leads in, , Waltham and I [00:16:00] was, upset by that and I was trying to understand.

The Karen Reed case also involves a lot of drinking, it involves, a bunch of cops drinking in a, in a basement and the case in Waltham I had found local cops hanging out at a after hours speakeasy. So there were certain, certain themes that, drew me to the Karen Reid case. And although the allegations, you know, that this was a widespread conspiracy, O'Keefe was attacked by a dog, um, they're bombastic, and listen, like, defense attorneys put forth bombastic theories, but the story was that there was something there.

At the very beginning, though, like, the side note, which I, I didn't latch onto at this, at the time, was that this case had been picked up already by a local blogger, um, Aiden Kearney, who goes by Turtle Boy, and so the side note was that, The way I was introduced to him, was that he usually attacks, or writes exposés.

Or extensive commentary about people involved in the Black Lives Matter movement, But that perhaps he was on to something [00:17:00] here with the Karen Reid case. 

Lee: I think that there, you know, I don't know. In my world these days, there's definitely an assumption that cops lie sometimes, that you cannot trust law enforcement.

But I think that there are other people in their world where they think, of course you trust law enforcement. I had a very formative experience where I was on a jury for a drug dealing case, a young man. And. A cop got up, told a story, and then they had direct video evidence, the defense did, that completely contradicted his story, so it was very clear that he had fully lied on the stand.

It was like a gasp moment. And his partner was supposed to testify, they cancelled her testimony, and long story short, this young man was acquitted, and in most cases, you know, he wouldn't have even gone to trial, he would have just pled guilty, because that's what they always tell people to do. So I feel like, for me Of course, I, you know, watched enough media and read enough things to know that there can sometimes be coordinated efforts by the police to lie in order to get the outcome that they want, in this case, a drug conviction, but to actually see [00:18:00] it play out in real life with someone's life at stake, I was like, Oh my goodness.

And this could have gone nine times out of 10, this goes the other way. And that kid goes to jail because they don't have the video evidence or he pleads guilty. 

Susan: Certainly, certainly. And that's why we have the American criminal justice system, if it works well, that we do have. Defense attorneys. 

Lee: Yeah.

Susan: Right? , look, it's, it's not black and white. When you're talking about policing, I think you really have to think about homicide separately from drug cases, whatever you think about policing, somebody needs to do the job of addressing, investigating, adjudicating murders. Mm hmm. And it shouldn't be true crime reporters.

I'll say that. And it's a challenging job. It's harder than most people think, there are certainly members of law enforcement who I I really have connected to over the years, investigating this triple homicide case on my own, at the same time, like, it's got, we've got to do [00:19:00] better.

Especially when we're looking at murder in this state. The public trust is gone, look, these are public servants at the end of the day. And we have to look at the system of public safety that we have, and it certainly needs addressing. Specifically here in Massachusetts. Um, this is a, it's become a national story, But I think it's really a national story because of how much we care about it here specifically. And when we're talking about the big picture Karen Reid themes that come out of this, sure there are some national themes and we can talk about it, but it's really about the way Massachusetts, does law enforcement specifically, which is different than other places.

It leads to the problems that we see here. 

Lee: Okay. So let's set our baseline. What would you view? I'm going to use facts because that is a weird term in a way as we're about to get into. What do you view as the facts of this case? What do we actually know what happened?

If someone is listening to this who's never heard of Karen Reed, what do they need to know as, as [00:20:00] their base of knowledge for what this case actually involves? Okay. 

Susan: Okay. Let's just tell the story. Let's step away. Please tell the story. I feel like we should have done this first, but here we are. No.

Here we are. So it's a snowy night, January 2022. So a Boston police officer was found near dead in a snowbank on the front lawn of another Boston cop. Now, this all takes place in the town of Canton. which is south of Boston, right? It's a small town, uh, there's a number of members of law enforcement who reside here, but they don't necessarily work in Canton, right?

We're talking about two Boston cops. The prosecutors say that John O'Keefe, who was found in the snow, almost frozen to death, he died in the hospital a short time later, with blunt force injuries on his body. Prosecutors say that his girlfriend, Karen Reed, hit him with her car. And left him to freeze in the snow.

They [00:21:00] say the weather was a weapon in this case. Her attorneys say that none of that happened. That instead that John O'Keefe went into the home of the other Boston cop, where they're having a party and was almost immediately attacked, punched, fell to the ground, attacked by a dog, and was, dragged outside.

at this point there was a conspiracy. among members of law enforcement and, first responders and neighbors, friends and family to protect the homeowner comp and frame Karen Reed. a business school agent, adjunct from, uh, Fall River.

Lee: I, I, can I, I'm like, my first question I want to ask you is like, what do you think happened? But I don't even know if that's a fair question or if that's even something you're interested in. 

Susan: I'm not. I would say that there is enough evidence of police misconduct for an acquittal, It's surprising for me that the first trial didn't end in an acquittal, There was a hung jury. and I think that speaks to a [00:22:00] great degree about how this case was tried. yeah, when I look at cases, for me, especially when you're looking at a trial, it's about the evidence.

And it's about the evidence that's there. It's been introduced to trial and it's how the lawyers are able to work the evidence. There's so much evidence of police misconduct that really stand on their own separate from either theory. You have the lead investigator, a state trooper who has personal connections to witnesses, who's investigating another homicide with the homeowner's brother.

who is a local detective, a Canton detective, You have, uh, law enforcement, we can get into more of why this happened, state police didn't come in right away because he wasn't quite dead yet, so you leave local law enforcement to take care of the scene, they blast the place with a snowblower, you're supposed to like freeze the scene, now that's homicide 101, you want to protect the scene, preserve the evidence.

They blast it with a snowblower, collecting [00:23:00] blood in solo cups, and I think most crucially, the state trooper, didn't go into the homeowner's house, So the defense is free to make all the theories that they want, and I think you would expect that the defense would do exactly that, because police didn't follow obvious leads.

Now, one of the complications of this case is that the feds did get involved, , and to the extent that an investigation was conducted, And so we have access to the personal cell phone records of the lead investigator, where we wouldn't in most cases.

And so we can see his, his thinking and his process with much more transparency than in a typical case in Massachusetts. And that's again why this case is so interesting, It's because of what it reveals. But to me, what it reveals doesn't necessarily, um, hinge on her guilt or innocence, right?

Because I think we're going to be debating that regardless of the verdict for decades. 

Lee: Before we get into all of these [00:24:00] threads that I'm fascinated to get into in terms of why this case blew up, can we just continue with the story a little bit? And so for people like me, who haven't been following this as closely, so, you know, in terms of she's arrested, first trial, what's the current status of?

Her legal situation. 

Susan: her current status is her first trial resulted in a hung jury. So she's going to be tried again and they are doing the process again. There's a new prosecutor who's been selected for the role. And he's also reassessing all of the evidence as well. But I would say that when you're talking about the process of this case, this case is interesting in that all of the, lead up, The, the pre trial hearings were very, much covered as well and part of the drama. 

Lee: So to me again, as someone who's read one article, I think the things that stuck out to me is that there's so many different sides in which people can latch on. There's the conspiracy [00:25:00] side, there's the law enforcement side, there's like the party side.

Yeah. Yeah. Drinking, I mean, everyone was a blackout drunk. Like that is sort of a thing that I think is interesting and weirdly like relatable to people. This idea of like one crazy night and something goes awry and there's not clear heads to necessarily say what really happened. And then there's the toxic relationship of it all, because I think we need to talk about this relationship between Karen Reed and this cop, which sounds incredibly tumultuous.

And I think it's something that people also feel is weirdly like a familiar archetype of the. hard drinking, hard fighting, hard loving, toxic relationship. 

Susan: Certainly. So homicide investigations are revealing, They reveal more than just what's pertinent to the homicide investigation itself. When done well, at least, right?

And usually if a homicide investigation is done well, the trial, which can still be revealing, but the trial is less revealing, [00:26:00] Because we've narrowed the lens. Because the investigation into this murder was done so poorly, that's allowed the defense to kind of widen the lens into what we're actually looking at here.

And so we have, a lot of intimate details, not just about Karen Reed's relationship, but with this community here in Canton. So this is a town in Massachusetts where it seems like everybody knows everybody, which if you're from Massachusetts is relatable. It's part of our culture here, , for better or for worse.

You have a powerful family. you know, a Boston cop whose brother is a Canton detective, whose other brother is a local selectman, and their personal ties to this community. They've lived here for more than half a century. That are being exposed, You have, basketball moms who are taking the stand.

And again, you have a group of grown ups who are engaged in heavy drinking. certainly we can talk about Karen Reed's relationship with John O'Keefe. The night of the murder, there are a [00:27:00] string of voicemails that she's left calling him a fucking loser, a pervert, screaming at him, They have a tumultuous relationship, and the night of the murder, they, they link up For one last time and hit the bars now.

She's seen on tape Drinking nine drinks vodka sodas. 

Lee: Oh my god, 

Susan: right, but she says she was good to 

Lee: drive And this is a woman in her 40s, correct? Indeed. I mean I would that would deliver apparently of a 19 year old right there Still be standing after nine vodka sodas 

Susan: No, I mean there's heavy drinking by a lot of parties involved, and again, this is again part of law enforcement culture, that has been exposed as well, and we can talk about the lack of mental support for law enforcement in this state, but.

I think just a nod to that when we're talking about how much people drink. But yeah, there's a lot of drinking here and there's affairs. No, I think we can talk about the [00:28:00] details here, but what's key is that Karen Reed has rallied an extraordinary amount of support, believing in her defense and fundraising for her legal fees.

People follow this case almost like sports. Um, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Patriots are having a slow year, but people wear t shirts, you know, they, they rally outside of the courthouse. And there's also a group in opposition to her as well that, that appears there. So there's really an interest in this case that's unparalleled.

Right? And we can talk more about why that is, the strategy behind that, but yeah, it's frankly, , objectively a fascinating trial to behold. 

Lee: So what do you think it is about her? Her as a person, her as a figure that has captivated, especially women, I think, I mean women are big consumers of true crime, but I think that there is something about her that you were saying people have latched onto, they're raising money, they're wearing [00:29:00] t shirts.

what does she symbolize for people? 

Susan: I think people always latch on to cases that involve women, female defendants. I think we really have a hard time with female violence. And also, uh, we're energized by female victimhood, again, cases that involve women, especially white educated women in Massachusetts, always, uh, a big draw.

Look, that goes back to the witch trials, That was like the first Massachusetts case. Spectator Trial, right? but I think if we're talking about the draw here, I mean, going back to, like, Turtle Boy, the blogger, this was part of the defense's, well, they're, they would deny this, right?

But you have Karen Reed, contacting a blogger in the early, early part of the case. They're in communication. Initially, they both denied having this communication. Now they've admitted that they were extensively, talking to one another. And so you have a murder defendant who's reached out to a blogger who's writing prolifically taking the [00:30:00] defense's side from the early moments of this case, as soon as they brought forth this conspiracy theory, And at the same time, that blogger is. posting links, fundraising for the defense, and the defense attorneys are retweeting those links. So you have the, narrative of this story is something that, at least to some extent, the defense has been involved in from the very start. Now this is America, where you can quote anything that a defense attorney says outside of a courthouse.

When I'm reporting for the Irish Times. I can't do that, right? I can only report on what is said within, the courtroom. There are major cons to that. You know, in America, we have tremendous, uh, freedom of press. But this is an element, to how the case has been perceived. And so you have a narrative, you have people who are coming to the courthouse.

So I initially heard about this case, and I attended a pre trial hearing, that later [00:31:00] that year. And I'd never seen anything like it. Again, I was drawn to this case because of what it could reveal about police. And I get to the courthouse, and there's People picketing, they have, uh, speakers, they're chanting, there's people connected to the victim who are walking into the courthouse and they're booing.

And you have Karen Reed in her designer suit with her attorneys walking past the crowd like a celebrity. And then inside of the courtroom, you have people jeering at the judge. It's like a wrestling match. the lawyers are making these bombastic claims that the judge is somehow involved. And look, there's people who will say that perhaps she is, and we there's certainly valid claims to unpack.

But for a defense attorney to make that allegation, it's really remarkable, especially you're going into a trial where you want the judge's favor, and then you have the attorneys looking to the live stream while the court proceedings are funding, or streaming, asking for defense funds. So certainly I [00:32:00] think Karen Reed is a, charismatic individual.

And look, if you believe that she's innocent, and again, there's, this case is ripe for an acquittal, then she's doing what she can to, raise money for her defense. But when you talk about, okay, true crime, why do we gravitate to these stories? All the big true crime stories, going back to like, In Cold Blood by Truman Capote.

It's They're doing something new, not with the telling of the murder story, but how it's told. So, In Cold Blood was the first true crime novel, The O. J. Simpson trial, that was like the birth of, the 24 hour news cycle, Serial, we have the births of podcasts, Making a Murderer, again, this is the first, like, docu series, bingeable docu series.

So, when you're looking at why are people so interested in this case, I think it has a lot to do with how the story is told. is being told, and not necessarily who Karen Reed is, but how she is projected in the [00:33:00] media. Then when you get to the case itself, you're watching the trial, but you're also watching these proxies in support of Karen Reed and against Karen Reed and how they interact and how they're contending with the information that's being revealed in court.

It's not just a circus, it's a multi ring circus Surrounded by soccer hooligans, essentially. 

Lee: Okay, so something we, I always have to. Take a pause in these episodes and take a step back. Like, what does this case say about Boston? I mean, you talked a little bit about what it says about Canton and the city of a small town where everyone knows each other and people who are in positions of power within a town having control over the process in a case, but what does this say?

Like, are these archetypes that you think apply regionally? What does it say about the Boston media ecosystem that this case has gotten the type of attention that it has? I mean, I. Spoke with a woman who had a podcast and she was, they, she talks about every, all sorts of things. And she said the one episode that [00:34:00] went nuts for them was the Karen Reid episode.

Susan: Sure. I mean, look, I'm even hesitant to talk about this case because I know how much, how opinionated people are about it. What does it say about Boston? I think when you look at Boston, you have to look at greater Boston, These are Boston cops. They're living in the suburbs. They're living in this tight knit community.

I think that we have a lot of communities like that here. It's part of why this area is so impenetrable to outsiders because, you know, our social groups are made up of people we've known since preschool, a lot of us. as far as Boston media, I think there's been a lot of some excellent reporting on this case, But I don't think that like major thinkers in the Boston area have taken this case seriously. There's been a lot of coverage about the play to play, I don't think there's been that much analysis of who these characters are, and I mean the defendants and also the, the attorneys, So I think this is again one of those cases [00:35:00] where, sensational murder trials almost like creep up on Boston, right?

We, we, we try to look away, we have kind of Puritan sensibilities of what counts as like. Newsworthy. But I think, you know, we have a lot of interesting murder stories in Massachusetts, in the Boston area. we can dissect the reasons, I think we're pretty uptight, and then we snap.

Lee: I was going to say that this is a tension that has been through the podcast. We were just talking about like a, like restaurants, all these different things where you have kind of a puritanical streak and a buttoned up streak and a conservative streak. But then also you have, you know, I think the idea of Boston as a very hard drinking place is also reflected in this case, like a play hard, let loose, and maybe also you're saying, then we snap.

Susan: Yeah, I mean I think that's there, I think what's hard is this case has really been turned into like a witch trial in reverse, with all of the individuals who are now implicated in this [00:36:00] conspiracy. That's not to say that the conspiracy is factually inaccurate, but that those individuals have not received the same due process that Karen Reed has.

So, uh, part of the interest in this case is that there are so many people who are alleged to be involved, and so many of us here have personal connections to these people and these places. This is very much a local story. It's what we talk about here as a, as a point of conversation. And I think it speaks, I guess, to our culture of drinking, and also insider dom, right?

And that was a huge part of the problem in law enforcement and what I've been reporting on as well is that in Massachusetts, in Boston, in greater Boston, it's all about who you know, That's a real issue if you apply that who you know culture to homicide investigators who have actual connections to the players in this case.

Lee: Absolutely. So, what is next for Karen Reed? This other trial's [00:37:00] happening. What's the time frame? Where are we looking? What should people if they're now, I mean, I feel like you're either in on Karen Reed or you're not, but maybe if someone's newly in on Karen Reed and they want to follow what's going on. 

Susan: I mean, I 

Lee: would say 

Susan: it's, a fascinating trial to watch and the experience of watching it unfold in real time will never compare to any of the books, the documentaries, any of the commentary about this case.

she's trying to get some of the charges thrown out in appellate court and she's facing a new trial and so attorneys on both sides are doing the process all over again. They're collecting evidence, , the special attorney Hank Brennan is looking for more evidence and apparently looking at her, interviews with the press.

Going into this case we'll see the whole thing play out all over again and it will certainly be different. But it will undoubtedly be fascinating. Different how?

Well, you have a different attorney for one. you have a different [00:38:00] prosecutor. The prosecutor in the first trial really struggled to tell any sort of story, or build any sort of think Hank Brennan will be able to do that. retrials are always more favorable to the prosecution than the defense.

The defense doesn't have that element of surprise. The prosecution now knows what they're working with. it will, it will be different. There'll be different evidence presented. The first trial was like more than two months. The prosecution went into every little detail. Yeah, I think it's, it's remarkable that she wasn't acquitted. Again, in the first trial, the defense is not only, well, they're, they're putting forth that they found the actual truth, right? Which is unusual for defense attorneys. I don't know if they'll stick to that plan, by all indications, they will.

Usually defense attorneys harp on reasonable doubt, not trying to convince jurors of an alternative narrative. Right. again, I think they're gonna ha be up against a more [00:39:00] competent prosecutor in this case. 

Lee: Much harder to fill out a jury this time, . Yeah. Well I probably could have sat on this jury until this conversation,

Susan: I mean, then there's a question of like, to what did the degree, is the media influencing a jury? And that's a huge question. 'cause basically the jurors are asked to like, take an honor code every day. that's a huge part of the case as well. To be continued, 

Lee: So we often talk on this podcast about sort of the Boston Mount Rushmore of different things, of foods, of music.

Let's talk about, uh, crimes. Would you put this Karen Reed on the Mount Rushmore of Boston crimes? Where does it fit in that picture? And is there anything that kind of, any threads that connect it with some of the other more notorious crimes? Murder trials or crimes that have really had staying power in the like cultural consciousness of Boston.

Susan: Big time. She is on Mount Rushmore Go Karen. Yeah, I mean you see other trials and again a lot of them involve women when we're talking about did [00:40:00] not just the murders the Trials. Yeah, Louise Woodward is the nanny accused of shaking Matthew Eapon to death in 1997 again, that was a big trial Michelle Carter accused of and convicted for texting Conrad Roy to death In 2014.

Um, but I would say that this case is perhaps most comparable to, like, Lizzie Borden. Have you heard of that case? Yes. Okay. But I don't 

Lee: know much. I, like, know that she's a famous 

Susan: Another woman from Fall River dating back to 1892. Again, when we're talking about the medium, you know, the rhyme, it's like, Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 whacks.

And when she saw what she had done. She gave her father 41, you know that one? I know, but I mean, And like my parents generation, people would still like know that tune. Right. And that was, that was how popular the case was. , the rhyme still lives on. She was actually [00:41:00] acquitted. So I think this is going to be one of those cases that we're talking about, for decades.

And again, it's unique in that. We have such like a fractured society in many ways, but this is a story that people of all walks of life are latching onto, are curious about, and are talking about with their friends and neighbors. 

Lee: Yeah, it's funny that her name's Karen. You know, the name Karen has also like had a big moment the last couple years, not that it's a one to one, but it feels very contemporary in terms of like issues around the trustworthiness of law enforcement, issues around gender, et cetera.

And into the second Trump era, it'll be interesting how the readings of it. change to that like broader cultural landscape. 

Susan: Certainly. I would also say again, there's two parts of this case. There's the trial and what it reveals about state policing, right?

And so this is a case that comes after a long list of other problems that we've had in Massachusetts state policing. Again, Sandra Birchmore, have you heard of that case? Maybe from reading the This is a [00:42:00] woman in the same county who was, groomed as a teenager by local cops and she was pregnant with one of their babies in her early She died in 2021. Her death was ruled a suicide by cops around here. Feds stepped in. They're now charging another officer with her murder, have Enrique Delgado Garcia is a state trooper who just died in training practice recently. We have overtime scandals. We have another case with Ali Bebod, , who's a judge's daughter.

The state trooper and the DA changed her arrest, documentation because of that. So this is really, if you, there's the sort of fascinating trial aspect and we can get into the legal strategy and who these characters are and that's certainly why this case is interesting, but I think what it reveals is a lot more about some of the And again, I found that Massachusetts is the only state in New England, and it is unique across the country, in that we [00:43:00] don't have a statewide major crimes unit.

We divide our state police into, twelve separate units, and assign them directly to the DA's office. So there's less checks and balances, murder is more political here, and our officers, um, our troopers aren't trained detectives, and they don't have the same support or, infrastructure as in other places.

 So yes, this is like a spectacle. It is like patently entertaining. It's a soap opera. There's, an element where we get to look into these people's intimate lives and the stakes are high for not just Karen Reed, but for dozens of people who are implicated. This story as well. And certainly for the boss person in this case, which is John O'Keefe and his family.

Lee: I think also anytime these cases happen, these days, I think everyone has this moment of panic. Like if my text messages were splashed up in the news, uh, in a trial of law, like, nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. 

Susan: [00:44:00] Yes. Yes. Um, but I think that what I think the more important takeaways for me is that it allowed me to have these conversations.

with members of law enforcement, as well, about how policing is, is done in this state. And that's separate from questions about her guilt or innocence. I think the fact that the defense is even able to make this allegation of a cover up, and so many people believe it, including people who are in law enforcement, says enough.

on its own, about how policing is done here. 

Lee: Very well said. Well, I want to give you a chance just to talk about your book. You keep mentioning the Waltham murders. Give us a little rundown of people, especially people who are big true crime fans or, but also want to take that next step and learn about.

You know, these deeper issues around trials and media. Tell us about the Waltham murder. It's something I didn't know about. Okay. Um, well, have 

Susan: you heard of the Boston Marathon bombing? Of course. Yes. Okay. So, Tamerlan Cernaya was the bomber, right? With his younger brother. Before the bombing, he murdered three people in Waltham.[00:45:00] 

They were found with their throats slit, marijuana dumped on two of the bodies, , cash strewn around the crime scene, and the case is officially open at the district attorney's office. Uh, investigators never followed up on obvious leads, including Tamerlan's name. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that he did it, So my investigation into the Waltham triple homicide, looks at that case, looks at the evidence implicating the case, and also, is a case study of what law enforcement did or did not do, Uh, I knew one of the victims. Um, it was a case I had tried to step away from, that was supposed to be the capstone to my involvement in reporting on crime, all things crime, but after the bombing when there were no answers and, uh, law enforcement actually conducted an interview that left another man dead, I started reporting on that case.

Lee: So this is a situation in which if those leads might have been pursued, he might have been in jail and this might have sort of altered the trajectory of that path in terms of the [00:46:00] timeline? Absolutely. But this 

Susan: is a case where there is no trial, right? Murder falls under the jurisdiction of district attorneys in this state.

And there is very little accountability here. So when we're talking about public safety concerns and homicide, it's very real. And it's an issue that has yet to be addressed, and I'm certainly Skeptical, or I think there's, there's certainly problems with the way that folks have latched onto the Karen Reid case, The tailgating outside. And I think there's certainly people who are making conclusions or jumping onto conspiracy thinking in this that I certainly as a journalist would never do. At the same time, it's raised awareness, outrage, action to address these issues that I've been looking in for a decade.

hasn't raised a lot of attention, hasn't led people to pick it outside. so it's interesting. Yeah. 

Lee: That, talking about the Mar [00:47:00] Boston Marathon Bomber, that makes me think of one of the best books I've ever read is Dave Cullen's book about Columbine. And that when Columbine happened, there was a lot of focus on, Oh, this is like young boys.

This is disaffection. This is a trend. This is trench coats. This is heavy metal music. And his real argument is he goes in and he's like, no, Eric Harris was a psychopath and he found a willing collaborator in Dylan Klebold, who was like a depressive young kid. And it's interesting to hear, I think with the marathon bombing, there was a lot of talk about sort of like politics, et cetera, of the brothers, but to hear that this, He might have perpetrated a triple murder before, adds a very different element to how we understand that action and that crime.

And please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because you've literally spent years working on this. No, 

Susan: absolutely, and it's part of the story we've yet to address or reconcile. part of the reason why I was so motivated to look into this is because there were top down conspiracies about this case.

What I found, Uh, wasn't really a top down conspiracy, it [00:48:00] was basically systematic rot, you know, people with power, protecting their own, uh, not doing the hard thing, uh, not holding folks to account, which is very much what you see on display in the Karen Reid case. I think law enforcement's actions in, and in actions in investigating this case, if you believe she's guilty, have been harmful to law enforcement, harmful to the homeowner cop, when you're talking about public trust on the most basic level of do we have officials in place that can handle things when there's a murder, especially if there's a murder that is connected to those in power, It's a crucial baseline public trust functioning thing, society question.

And you can see how dangerous it can get with the instance of the Boston Marathon bombing. A case that we claim to care so much about in Boston. We still have these Boston Strong shirts, but we've yet to look at the root issue, look at how we got here, and ask those hard questions [00:49:00] about law enforcement, and in both instances, in the name of protecting other members of law enforcement who are injured in the bombing attack.

And again, if you believe Karen Reid is guilty, harmed here as well. 

Lee: Absolutely. Well, what a sunny note to end on. Uh, I close every episode with the same question, which is, do you have any Philadelphia questions for me? 

Susan: Yeah. What's your favorite, uh, weekend, John? 

Lee: Weekend? John? Yeah. Oh, you're John. I mean, you're, but like the whole thing with John.

Am I doing it right? Well, so the problem with John is like, means everything. 

Susan: Okay. Okay. My sister told me to ask you, What's your favorite weekend, John? And I like tried to play it off cool, but I guess it was not 

Lee: like what I would like to wear on the weekends, what I like to do on the weekends, where I like to eat on the weekends, what I like, what's my vibe on the weekends.

I was hoping you would just like roll with it. This is the problem with John. This is, it really, it's, it's a catch all word. I would say in Philadelphia, my favorite weekend, John is. You know, [00:50:00] build in some, definitely going to watch the Eagles this weekend. Definitely probably going to go to South Philly barbacoa for some incredible Mexican food.

I'm probably gonna eat a hoagie, If my children aren't around, I'm going to go to a bar. I'm not going to order a citywide special, which is a shot and a beer. Cause that's just, I'm too old for that as I'm no, I'm no Karen Reed. I can't, but, and I'm mostly going to walk a lot.

I'm going to, you know, I'm going to hit 20, 000 steps. Cause that's, that's how to do it. 

Susan: Good for you. 

Um, Okay. Well I think I like it. We have a lot of like localized, hyper regional slang here in Massachusetts. Bring it on. Tell me, anything good? Oh, I mean part of, well, you know mush?

No. Mush. So this is part of like the late, the dialogue, like Divya Mush, Booster Jivels. So that's 

Lee: You're literally speaking Greek. I have no idea what you're saying. 

Susan: Well, you'll find a deep dive into lake talk in my book, right? Okay. Um, it's, it's a part of Newton called the [00:51:00] lake, uh, named after like a dried up lake.

near Nonanthem that has its own dialogue. and no one knows where it comes from. Mush is like a dude or a guy, right? Okay. It's like, it's, it's like dude. It's like a mush kid. But when you use it, you know that they're like a mush, like they know from the region, you know, it's a little bit more specific. 

Lee: I love that.

 That's it for this episode of explain Boston to me. Thank you so much to Susan for chatting with me. As always, if you have any thoughts on this episode or ideas for topics I should add to my growing list, hit me up on Instagram at explain Boston to me, or email me, explain Boston to me@gmail.com. Right. 

And review us on apple podcasts and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. The key artists by Melissa McPheeters, the bed music is by Dylan Gottlieb. Until next time I'll be over here thinking about. The whole Pilgrim thing is maybe not why. This is a Thanksgiving you place, maybe it's the fact that. My entire neighborhood is overrun by turkeys. Like, [00:52:00] I've never thought about turkeys more live turkeys, like in my face turkeys. Turkey's here at turkeys there. 

Turkeys everywhere. And next week, turn gamma plate. Revenge. Let's go.