Success Secrets and Stories
To share management leadership concepts that actually work.
You are responsible for your development as a leader. Don't expect the boss to invest the training budget in your career. Consider this podcast as an investment of time in your career, with a bit of management humor added at the same time.
Success Secrets and Stories
Meet Dr. Durst: Creator of Management by Responsibility (MBR) on-line program
Ever feel like you're just reacting to life rather than actively participating? That's where our esteemed guest, Dr. Durst, comes into the picture. He helps us break away from the shackles of victim, and embrace the liberating power of taking personal responsibility. He introduces us to the updated version of Management by Responsibility (MBR), a principle he's adapted for online accessibility and wide-spread application – from a doctor's office nudging patients to take charge of their health, to a personal parenting app.
Handing over the baton to personal stories, John reflect on his journey from a diesel truck repair technician to a manufacturing site supervisor, where MBR served him as a guiding light. Greg shares his experiences in taking the online course, and his professional human resources views of how the MBR program delivers the self improvement message. It's all about breaking past barriers and living in the present. Together, we explore how MBR has been instrumental in helping individuals transcend lower levels of consciousness to attain personal growth and effective leadership.
Bringing a compelling end to the conversation, Dr. Durst shares his riveting experience of bringing MBR to South Africa during a period of political change, thereby contributing to the transition towards democracy. You get to see the profound impact of goal setting, owning our choices, and accepting our role as the cause in our lives. And as a sweet ending, we also get a glimpse of Dr. Durst's journey as an artist and the enchanting world of fractal art. A conversation that promises to change your perspective, don't miss out!
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Well, welcome everyone. Welcome to a special podcast of Success Secrets and Stories. I am here with my friend and co-host, greg Powell Greg, hey, everybody. And we're here with a special guest. We're here with Dr Durst. Say hi, dr Durst.
Speaker 3:Hi, how's it going, you guys?
Speaker 2:Ah right, so we have the person that was actually the inspiration for me to write the book, and this is our second part of a three-part series and a little bit of introducing the MBR program, success, growth, academies, connection, the dot com approach, and I like to say that it's the man, the myth and the legend, because Dr Durst has been doing things in terms of MBR and he's a very accomplished artist. But instead of me trying to go over his background and some of the things that he accomplished, I'm going to let Dr Durst talk. Good, maybe we can talk about when you started the MBR refresh back in the what 2014, 2015?
Speaker 3:Right, right, I had started to revise the napkin notes on the art of living and I decided to change the title because, humorously enough, napkins in South Africa refer to baby diapers, and so you probably didn't know that. You go to a restaurant and ask for napkin. They look at you very quizzically, like why would you need a napkin? So they call it service. Why are you writing?
Speaker 2:on diapers.
Speaker 3:So, at any rate, I changed it to being the cause and that was very nice. And I talked to Carl Vermeulen, who had helped me edit the original MBR tapes years ago maybe 15 years before and Carl mentioned that he was starting Success Growth Academy for sales and management and he said can I use that MBR course, because I've never forgotten from the editing process? I said, absolutely, you certainly can. And so together we started to revise and update the management by responsibility program so that it would be much easier to do it online. And at about the same time we had the pandemic and that left everybody online mode and they loved it and so on.
Speaker 3:And so we started to do the MBR tapes online and we did some experimentation and so on. We looked at it as a public program and getting people to do a Facebook group with that and found out that probably the best approach to that was doing it in-house, so that people were committed and we could also give feedback to the organization as people did their exercises and so forth and really brainstormed how could you improve the organization itself, how could we increase the level of responsibility? How could we all act more at a responsible level? Well, that also led to a friend of mine who's been using the MBR concepts, who was a physician, dr Casper Hayes. Someone. Casper got all excited about the role of using the tapes in his office because he was constantly talking to his patients about taking responsibility for their health rather than waiting for the physician, to quote cure them.
Speaker 3:You know so often patients don't follow the doctor's advice. You can say take this medication, they don't take it, and then they blame the doctor for why they're not getting well. And so Casper was a big proponent of MBR for a number of years and so with the tapes he created one of the rooms in his office so patients could come in 45 minutes prior to their appointment and go through the MBR sessions. Well, they loved it and he started to see a lot of improvement. The people started to say can I have my wife or my husband come through? How about my teenager? And so on. So that started to grow a great deal.
Speaker 3:One of the feedback that we got from that were people saying things like that's great, but I'm not really a supervisor or a manager and so some of it just didn't pertain to my life. And so with that we made it more personal and called it being the cause. We redid that there was modules to make it at a personal level and that has been absolutely outstanding. People have been they come in with their parents, with their teenagers and take it all together and that really increases communication and helps the family flow and so on. And we wondered how is that going to work on a personal kind of basis. Well, it's been outstanding. I mean, let me just have some quotes here. Here's one With absolute grateful tears. You have no idea how much your book and seminar, being the cause, has helped me, dr Durst. I'm forever grateful. I continue to work on some key points each day and the experience has created small miracles in my life. I believe the concept of taking 100% responsibility will always be with me and I truly appreciate you sharing this ageless wisdom.
Speaker 3:Another person wrote. I'm living proof of a walk and talk by experience, doing the work and going through the process of being the cause. It allowed me to escape from the drama triangle and to live my life more authentically. It's amazing how much you truly learn in terms of the average person just simply helping themselves. So that has been exciting to watch and that has led to another aspect of it. A woman named Melissa Erasmus in Cape Town is developing a parenting app that people can download on their phones Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it? And being the cause is the core issue with that. So she's developing that, getting funding from the government as well, and also working with teenagers after they graduate from high school to have a year where they truly concentrate on what they want to do with their lives and how they can build the skills to make that happen, and that, again, being the cause would be the core program for that as well. So it's been an exciting process to go through, as you can imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and hearing the application from a doctor's office and from working with teenagers and helping that transition. I've had people telling me obviously nowhere near the level that you've been working with, but the occasions where I have had people tell me that they've been using the MBR concepts in those perspectives, yeah, I mean it's interesting to be able to step back because it's taking responsibility and how you treat it. You have the layers and examples of where it goes off the rails and you bring it back onto the rails. I think is the important part, the way that it's interactive and it really spoke to me when I was taking the class.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it reinforces it for the managers when they have a spouse or their kids go through it and they can all work together on it.
Speaker 3:It reinforces the entire concept. I mean, obviously, if you begin to take responsibility for your life and stop blaming others and coming up with excuses, it impacts every aspect and that's the glory of it. It really is to watch that happen and to realize. I think, john, the exciting thing for me is that that snap when somebody suddenly realizes they are in fact responsible, that they can't depend on other people to do it for them and I know you've covered that with your other podcast so nicely saying don't wait for somebody else to create training programs so that you can be effective. I mean, the wonderful thing about today's world and I love it is people can go to Google and they can go to YouTube and so on and they can create their own training programs, they can watch other people, they can listen and share with people all over the world, and that is one of the most exciting things about the technology we have today. I love it.
Speaker 2:Right, right and the part that I think is helpful with the MBR program you created a platform to move between, really in my world, like six to eight concepts to help that transition, that responsibility, and build on those concepts. I really think it's interesting when you talk about a psychologist versus how you put it into real world applications is the difference for me, because I've gone through the psychology classes before and when I took your class, I had just started from going in diesel truck repair into supervision in a manufacturing site and it was a whole new world and I was never held to these kind of accountabilities and this was such a wonderful place to start because it was like a mind reset. Forget what you had in the past. Leadership of people is different than being the best technician and that's the push point that I really learned from your instruction. That was that moment of I'm doing something totally different. I'm leading Right and I have to be responsible for other people, not me, it's us, yeah.
Speaker 3:Exactly, yeah, and I think for myself, my challenge was to put it into a concept or into a format that anybody could understand it. I mean, I've had postgraduate psychologists and psychiatrists in the room, but I've also had people with no education whatsoever and they all quote get it when it all comes out. And that was my concept Try to get it so that everyone can understand it from their perspective, rather than putting myself on a pedestal and using a lot of fancy words and concepts and having everybody say, oh wow, he's really brilliant. Well, no, no, I want people to know that they're brilliant. They know all these things deep down inside, from the very core of their being, and once they realize that, then it's a whole different ballgame.
Speaker 2:The humor I got is when people ask me questions about the MBR program, I usually stop and go. I quoted Dr Durst. He's the one that's got the psychology degree and the commercial of I stated a holiday in is kind of a commercial joke of you're an expert because you stayed at a holiday in. Yeah, exactly, that's about as close as I got to psychology is staying at a holiday in and I refer them to your work so that they have a little bit better.
Speaker 2:I don't want to get in that trap of trying to answer questions in psychology because wrong guy I applied it, which is what I tried to pitch. But really you've done a wonderful job of starting that process, building that process and at the end of the day, I love the line from the book you are the cause, being the cause. And what does that entail? I think well, number one, it's nice that they know that you're not writing on diapers, so that's a good sign. But being the cause, being the cause and people should know that you did the artwork, the artistic hover that you have on that is your own work.
Speaker 3:Right, right, right. And that particular one is called entering a new dimension, because that is my interpretation of what happens when you break through the barriers of the past and start to live in the here and the now. And it's so exciting to watch that. And I know, greg, with your program with Human Resources, I'm sure that you also had that experience of putting it into a context that people could understand.
Speaker 1:Dr Durst, thank you for that segue. I was sitting here thinking that same thing. I've been an HR professional for many, many years and I can tell you how many employees could say I want to go down the management track, I want to be a manager. You know, they make more money, they get the nicer opposites and whatever. And I sat down with those same people later finding out they weren't taking responsibility. They were blaming others for things that weren't getting done. They weren't owning it, they weren't looking at themselves as being the cause. They said I got the title, I'm getting the money, I got the desk. Does it just happen? And the answer is no. You've got to take responsibility. You've got to recognize that the cause is you and blaming others is not going to get things done.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say that, one of the things that's so important with this aspect of taking management by responsibility again and redoing it people asked me why now? Why are you doing it now? I mean, this was developed many decades not many decades, but decades ago and the truth is it's more important now than it was when it first started, because we have a society and a world concept that glorifies victimhood. Glorify is blaming other people in circumstances. We have political leaders who continually point the finger to each other and nothing gets done. We have the whole defensiveness and a division, divisive kind of approach where I'm right, you're wrong and never the twang shall meet.
Speaker 3:I have the right way of looking at things, you don't, I'm better than you are, and so today's world I mean it's been sad for me because I thought when I first developed it that that was sort of the first wave and by now I'd be like the second, the third wave of people's consciousness that would be incorporated, that people would actually just be living at that.
Speaker 3:Of course I'm responsible. Unfortunately, it's been just the reverse. So I'm very excited about doing what I can to transform what I see as a downhill spiral happening, because I see people in our society. At this point, getting stuck at the self protective level of blaming other people in circumstances and conforming blindly with whatever authority figures say is right without questioning whatsoever, and so I think it's a mission for all three of us to assist people in organizations and in society itself To transcend those lower levels and get to the responsible level, and to teach everybody around us our family members are there, staff, everyone we can possibly talk to take more responsibility for their lives, because that's the only way out of this mess that we find ourselves in today.
Speaker 2:Well said, yeah, very well said, I think, when you were teaching the class. What was interesting is that the first class, the first day of the two day seminar, where for the people in the room, not for the company that sent them for the people in the room, and you would go over the things of taking personal responsibility not management by responsibility, but personal responsibility For what's happening in your life what have you done? Where are you going to go? What do you want to be when you grow up? That that you know they're doing it to me mentality and I'm just gonna play victim isn't gonna fly now in this room. Today's your first day. Tell me when you gonna be in five years. Now, all those words, just they hit me at a hundred miles an hour of this isn't a training class, this is a class of life.
Speaker 2:And and really it changed.
Speaker 2:I mean, you went to the business context in the second day, which is what right you know it was based on to help people understand how to apply this concept in a business application. But Day one was you're in a room and you need to straighten yourself out first before you start straightening out other people. Exactly, I think that's the part that you, as you're saying, no one is looking like you gave me one line in the meeting in the meeting in the summer that was the best when I said I was really having a bad day cuz I had like a ton of phone calls after the seminar and I was answering stuff until late at night, and you said, yeah, I had really a bad day. You know your. Your first response was well, you know you should look in the mirror, cuz that guy that you saw in the mirror he can help you with that problem. Wow, I, I think I need to talk to him a little longer, because it was a it was a bad day yeah, yeah, the bad day didn't happen to you.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:The guy in the mirror was actually party to that, so yeah, yeah, yeah, the first day of the course was always exciting for me because I really had to change people's perspective about why they were there, what they were there to learn and that it's a life life learning process work. We're talking about a required course. You just have to determine when and how you're gonna take it. You wanna put it off? You can put it off, but you know it's required and so the better. The sooner you take it and take responsibility, the better your life is gonna be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and and and. At that time in my life it was incredibly important to understand that perspective. So, yeah, I there was a transition for me in that meeting, in that seminar, and it was the emphasis of why I wanted to write a book on what I learned, how I applied it. And I just remember, when I sent you my note in 2014, I said I want to write a book. I'm not so sure that it wasn't like, really I got a fan that wants to write a book, um, but I was inspired by the book and you're generous enough to give me the green light that I could write the book.
Speaker 2:And it was trying to give the trails of applying and be our, and all the lessons that I learned from a two day seminar. And, as I've told people, how many two day seminars can you name that you remember better? Yet how many two day seminars that you actually applied throughout your life? Move and send people to train classes all the time, right, and they bounce off. They don't have no reason. They really don't have residual effect. Your program I mean I just love the example you gave us of a doctor applying it for patients to take responsibility. What a wonderful application.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's all self-healing, it's all healing from within. Anyway. The doctor doesn't cure you or someone. Your body does that. They simply give you the tools to assist you in that process. And every physician will say, you know, in some cases they'll say, oh, you've got six months to live and the person lives for another 22 years or something. And they sort of shake their head and say, how could that happen? Well, because they took responsibility for healing themselves. And I think Dr Haysman knows that full well and he's such a brilliant advocate of it and he's seen so many changes with his patients that he's really a model for the medical world. In that context. It's not just where people come in and say, doctor, I have an ache of pain or whatever, and then they apply the fix it to it. It doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Or the pill.
Speaker 2:Because, everything's going to be fixed with a pill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the pill. I took a pill, so I should be fine.
Speaker 3:No, no. Yeah Well, the pharmaceutical companies have made lots of money with that concept, haven't they?
Speaker 2:Unfortunately. Unfortunately, everything is going to be solved with if you just take this magic pill. It doesn't work that way, right, right. So I think what's exciting now is you have created this class that I have used, and back in 2014, I didn't get the impression you were going to be teaching anymore, and it was so fun to fire up the SGA site and have you teaching. It was like you were there in the classroom, which is really rare to do on a website. Yeah, and it was so much fun that when I was telling Greg about it, I wanted him to first go through the class and then we talk about maybe doing a podcast and Greg give the impressions of what you thought when you went through the MBR program on the website for the first time.
Speaker 1:So thanks, john. For me it was just extremely practical. In fact, it wasn't deep secrets and mysteries, it was taking responsibility, it was ownership. It was very a matter of fact, things you needed to do if you wanted to be a manager and be good at it, and the goal setting, for instance. You don't do that half-half. I mean it very. Much is a process. There is a discipline to it. The design studiesthe illustration, dr Durst, were helpful too Very interesting to make it come alive.
Speaker 1:The wordlet-serv example in the context be superings. I used that in a podcast, but really good stuff. That, for what I call adult learning and I've been involved in adult learning a long time was helpful. It very much paved the way for a smooth learning of the concept. And the concept wasn't. It wasn't great. It was very clear. It was very black and white. You are the cause.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's what John was saying earlier that you don't forget it Once you realize you're the cause rather than the effect in your life, it's something that never goes away. You can deny it, but it always comes right back to you. You know. You say, oh, it's terrible, they did it to me, my boss did it to me, government's doing it to me. Well, look in the mirror. You know you're the one choosing how you're reacting to the events in your life and no one else can have that choice but you. So it does stick to you, believe me, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the humor is I've done so many quotes of yours in my conversations and to hear some people repeating them back to me. My favorite is I would usually read the Admiral Rickovers comments about responsibility, and that responsibility is a unique concept. It can only reside and in here in a single individual. You may share it with others, but your portion will not be diminished. You can delegate it, but it still will be with you. You can disclaim it, but you can't divest yourself of it.
Speaker 2:And I pick up the book and I'll start reading this to these people and usually it's kind of humorous because I'll have the same person in conversation I'm reading it for the second time is like yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. I didn't do it. So it was probably one of the quotes that I've had the most fun with. That and you're responsible for everything that happens in your life, whether you agree with it or not. Those two key elements of ownership really helps people understand why I think MBR is a key.
Speaker 3:And one of the early exercises we do is name the people, name the events in your life that you like and that were wonderful and you're proud of, and then name the ones that you didn't like. And having people have the awareness that if they like what's going on in their life, they did it. You know, I'm the one who got married, I'm the one who graduated, I'm the one who promoted to the manager, and so on. And if they didn't like it, oh no, it's my wife's fault, the manager's fault, the government's fault, and so on, and realize one's cause and one's effect. But the truth is you're responsible, whether you like it or you don't. You know, and I think that's a real key issue for people.
Speaker 2:And I think, just having that mentality and that approach, you were part of something that I think is historic. You were part of the change of governments in South Africa and you brought the MBR program to them as they were working on a new constitution, moving from apartheid to democracy. The Hamilton movies right now is you were in the room to use one of their quotes. Maybe you can talk about that for a second.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I was chosen in 1985 to be part of the Human Unity Conference, which was 200 people in the world who were making a significant impact, and that was a wonderful honor. And we met in Boston and in my class were two men from the Zulu nation and I thought, well, I know the Zulus and so on. But I didn't realize it was King Goodwill, who is the king, who at the time was the king of the Zulus, and Dr Boudalaisi, who were two of the most powerful men in South Africa and they'd wanted me. At the end of the session that we talked and they said you've got to come to South Africa, we need you. And I thought that was wonderful and you know how you say yeah, we got to get together sometime. I was so, so out of my context about going to Africa and so on. But shortly thereafter other organizations were asking about the new MBR tapes that we had just developed and all of a sudden there were many organizations purchasing the tapes, including the African National Congress, which was Mandela's firm, not firm his organization.
Speaker 3:We had people come to our home in Evanston and ask us to please come to South Africa. And at that time, of course it was apartheid and bombs were going off and it was very tense and so on. And finally, in 89, we had five people come to the home and say we need you now Nelson Mandela's getting out of jail, but don't tell anybody. This is what we understand to be the case. We want you there when he's out of jail to work with us. And I went, wow, wow. I hesitated and then they said and we'll throw in a safari as it done. That was a clincher of the deal, at any rate.
Speaker 3:I went there and fell in love with the, the people. It was Very much like being part of the Declaration of Independence. You know I had kept pinching myself saying, but I'm a farm kid from Michigan, what am I doing here and what it? What happened was I Was one of the few people that everybody trusted the Zulus because of my work with King Goodwill and so on. The causes which was Mandela, which were rival tribes for centuries, plus the business leaders of First National Bank was one of that really embraced the NBR concept. So I was one of those people that was able to coalesce the whole group and it was a total honor for me to do so and we were able to Do some some pretty controversial things. Like they were saying at the time one man, one vote. And I said, uh-huh, we all know that much of the families is Matriarchal in South Africa. What do you mean, one man? What are you going to do for women in this country? Because they're the ones who really are right movers in the shakers. Let's be honest, guys. You know what's happening with the women in South Africa. Africa was the first nation to have Woman's Day not Mother's Day, but also a woman's day. Woman's day honor women. Women's day to honor women in the country, and so on. So there were many, many, many, many major, significant things that went through that Four-year period before the election said because everybody was Worrying about it being a bloodbath and so on and I kept saying to people look, whatever you're afraid to face will bite you in the Ass.
Speaker 3:You know and you know. And if you're not going to face this, we're going to have to have equality for everyone in this country. And the key component and Mandela really picked up on it was forgiveness. You know if, if you're not going to forgive, you're going to get stuck in the past. And why the transition was smooth and with love Because basically, to get right down to it, it's all about love. It was a wonderful opportunity to talk about love and forgiveness and how we can all work together, every segment of Society in South Africa. It was a beautiful to watch that transition happen.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That is a wonderful example of being in the room, and I love the idea that MBR made it into a constitution on top of it. Yeah that is awesome.
Speaker 2:So, they can get a piece of that learning process by going to SGA. Do you want to talk about your other? You know you've been on a 35 year safari, right, but you've done some wonderful art and capturing Cape Town and the things that you've done in in South Africa at the same time. Since this is a moment for you, would you like to talk about all the wonderful work you've done as an artist?
Speaker 3:Yeah, when I was a kid I loved it to Play around with art and I want to blue ribbon. At a county fair I did a horse and because we were poor we couldn't afford our at least not in my farming community I painted the horse with with instant coffee and won a blue ribbon. It's that always stuck with me. And then when I quote, retired and quote, I said to people when I was a kid I wanted to be an artist. When I grew up and I guess now I'm grown up enough to be an artist Well, I started painting Love Monet, love Van Gogh and so on and I wanted to do their style and because it seemed to be one that was rich in color and texture and could capture the moment, and and so I became recognized for that.
Speaker 3:Certainly a couple of galleries love to promote my work and so on. And then I got into fractal art, which is a Digital art done with fractals, which are the building blocks of every, everything from mountains to our inside blood Network system and so on. So we're all made up of fractals and I started to play around with fractal art, which is Actually fractals. Art actually speaks to the core of our being. It actually speaks to us on a cellular level and that has led to a whole another dimension of my artwork, which is using it with meditation.
Speaker 3:I have a wonderful person in South Africa, dr Diopilae.
Speaker 3:He took to my artwork, just had Singers.
Speaker 3:He just really loves it and he is promoting it in terms of using fractals for jewelry design, clothing design, hotels for their lobbies, in their rooms to make people feel better, airports he's working with airports now but I'm some of my fractal art to help people calm down for that stressful situation. He's really gung-ho on promoting that aspect of my artwork and it's really been beautiful because I've developed some also some meditation tapes with music and the fractal art to help people calm down and get rid of some of the stress in their lives and it's worked out beautifully. So it really speaks to the inner core of people and I have had a wonderful success with that as well. I have a there's a healing art with Renee Phillips and part of the Manhattan Arts and they and she has done some very nice things for me in terms of promoting the healing art in hospitals and institutions, and so she's been very, very good at that as well. But I can go on with that, but we'll show you some of those and maybe another podcast.
Speaker 2:Your art can be found on a website. Um, what is the website again?
Speaker 3:heartscapepaintingscom, or find.
Speaker 1:Art America and.
Speaker 3:Art America has about 500 of my pieces on it as well. Opulent art in the UK has also been promoting my work. They did a recently they did a 3D immersive gallery presentation where you actually it's almost like you put headphones on you walk through the gallery In a global exhibition. I'm proud to say that most people who were selected for the exhibition had one or two pieces that were selected. Opulent art selected all seven of my pieces that I had submitted.
Speaker 2:I'm fascinated with the different types and I love refractal art. I love the award-winning photos like the fiery iron lion. That's just such a dynamic element of imagery. It's beautiful art. Yeah, thank you. You are definitely multi-talented and it shows the art is outstanding.
Speaker 3:When I was a teenage, John, I wanted to be a Renaissance man.
Speaker 2:I think you are.
Speaker 3:I think, so too, I think you are, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think we're going to kind of bring this to a close, but we want to keep the door open to see if we can have you on in the future talking about your projects, because there's so many things that you're doing. What a wonderful time. Some of those examples are fantastic in terms of MBR and it really speaks to how you have helped us to make those transitions and take those responsibilities and have a better life. I can't thank you enough. Let's go, greg. Anything to add.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Dr Durst. Thanks for your time and your stories and hopefully you'll join us again. I would love to it would be great.
Speaker 3:Keep doing what you're doing. You guys are natural the way you just sort of talk and make it easy to understand and it's so personal and so on. I've really enjoyed all of your podcasters. There's gems of wisdom in each one of them and you're to be congratulated Wow.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. We're going to talk about next week, a little bit about our third part of our series. We're going to talk about SGA Corporation. The president of SGA is Carol.
Speaker 3:Brilliant.
Speaker 1:Carol.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, kara. Yeah, he has a website that he's been working on for a while and Dr Durst talked about that transition. It's a great website that we'd like to introduce, and they have Carl talk about it himself, so that would be our next podcast. So, if you like what you've heard, my book Building your Leadership Toolbox is available on amazoncom and lulucom. My ebook is available on Barnes Noble Success Secrets and Stories is what you're listening to, thank you, and also on other popular podcast formats. Dr Durst's book and his MBR program is available on Success Growth Academy. We'll be talking about that next time, and the music is brought to you by my grandson. So thanks, dr Durst.
Speaker 1:Thanks Greg, thank you, thanks John, as always. Thanks John Next time All right.
Speaker 2:Thanks, john, thanks.
Speaker 1:John Next time.