Navigating the Second Level of the Responsibility Ladder of MBR - Self Protective

Wondering why you're stuck in a rut, unable to make progress in your career? Are you often on the defensive, shying away from challenges and letting hostility take the wheel? It's time to tune in and get some insights into the self-protective behaviors that could be sabotaging your success. We'll be dissecting Dr Durst's model of responsibility ladder, zeroing in on the self-protective rung that is often the hurdle to personal growth. You'll hear about an employee who was let go due to these self-protective behaviors, only to rise from the ashes and transform his life, a testament to the power of breaking free from this cycle.

Don't miss out as we extend the conversation to how self-protective attitudes can hamper the development of personal identity and limit the joy and connectedness at work. We reference the insightful book, Transcend, by Dr Scott Berry Kaufman that examines the detrimental effects of self-protective attitudes. Our co-host, Greg Powell, also shares a memorable encounter with a self-protective employee, giving you a first-hand account of how these behaviors can affect the workplace. Say goodbye to pulling up the drawbridge and say hello to a more open, successful version of yourself. Don't miss this chance to take the reins of your personal growth and success.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

Hello everyone and welcome to the podcast Success Secrets and Stories. I'm your host, john Wunolowski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Powell. Hey everybody.

Speaker 1: 0:19

Yeah, and we're here to talk about letters, responsibility letters, and we're going to be talking about the second rung of the letter, called self-protective. Just to give you the background, there's the letter of responsibility and we're going to be talking about the lifestyle rather than the management style and, as Dr Durst developed it, there's unconscious, self-protective, conformist achievement and then the highest level, being responsible, and Dr Durst developed it in terms of characteristics of lifestyles and it's emotional responses, intellectual functioning, activity involvement, self-discipline, relationships, physical state and spiritual dimensions. As I explained in our previous podcast, we're going to only talk about emotional responses, activity involvement, relationships and physical state, because those are the kind of things that you would see on performance reviews. You would basically be addressing in terms of how people are doing their jobs, and those characteristics sometimes come in performance reviews or PIPs, as you sometimes can see that transition. So we're going to talk about the first category and Dr Durst talks about the emotional response.

Speaker 1: 1:46

And people are in the self-protective, are usually seeing those kind of emotional shifts or hysterical behaviors, the fears, their fear of being dominated, the fear of losing the job, losing the company, those kind of emotional things that are a little bit more extreme in these people who are self-protective. That insecurity is one of those things that we're talking about. Activity involvement is also another characteristic that we see from a performance perspective, that they're avoiding challenging activities. What they know is what they do. They don't really want to stretch themselves. They have very little self-confidence and there's a lot of anxiety in terms of the job and what's really strange is sometimes the avoidance of satisfaction in the job, that whole thing about ego and where they want to protect themselves versus they want to get confirmation that they're doing well. It's really an interesting dichotomy between the two and that kind of plays into the next category pretty well.

Speaker 1: 2:59

In terms of relationships, these individuals are usually withdrawn or there's a lot of dependencies, usually see them like teaming up with people that they like. There's the one or two team members and that's it. There's elements of hostility. They're unconcerned about commitments and agreements. Those are for losers. I've heard that term. There's also that tendency within the self-protective for lying or withholding information and they feel that they're right, that whole opinion of their own focus, that cultural superior approach, that they have the answers and they're not really interested in exchanging information or diversity. They're looking out for themselves, like in your experience. This is probably a good time to maybe break from the descriptions. Maybe you can expand a little bit about the relationship side.

Speaker 2: 3:59

Absolutely, john, and in my experience there's probably been several over the years, but one in particular, and this was an employee, not a manager. This was your pretty much classic bully. This person used intimidation and physical threats, although said tongue and cheek, to kind of get his way. He was a pretty imposing individual from a size standpoint, but even with his peer employees they all were concerned. So they see him come in the morning, what kind of mood is he in? And they would then tell their manager, the assured manager hey, better watch out for some, so they're not in a great mood today. This individual had no concerns about the rules of engagement, the typical rules of how do you work together with people. He didn't care. It was his way or the highway right, and he actually thought he was better than everyone else on that team, including his manager. And when I say he thought he was better, just how he carried himself and the way he approached people. But the rest of the story goes something like this At one point, as you can recall and recognize, things in the workplace have been a little bit watched more carefully than they were in the past.

Speaker 2: 5:01

So someone starts making threats. You really pay attention. We started listening to what he was saying and how he was saying it and decided it's time to bring him in, do some of that HR stuff that we like to talk about, work with the manager on that. But it really came down to what something you brought up, john a performance improvement plan. This guy wasn't going to change and we got to that point so we had to let him go. Well, about a year later I run into this individual at the airport. I'm with my wife, he's there with his wife, his child, and he comes up to me. He takes my hand. So I'm an HR guy and sometimes when you depart with folks that you work with and they're not so savory ways you always keep a one eye open, right but he shook my hand.

Speaker 1: 5:40

At least there was a handshake.

Speaker 2: 5:42

There was a handshake, yes, and he said look me in the eye. He said, greg, thanks. He said things have happened really well for me since I left. I didn't realize how bad I was and the position I was in and how I was really treating other people. I appreciate that the company put me in the right direction and I've learned from that mistake and I'm going to be a better person. So kind of a happy ending. But I've really troubled some time when he was working at the company.

Speaker 1: 6:09

And how sad that self-protective and not really reaching out, he finally showed growth after he was already fired because there was that wake up moment. A lot of what we're trying to do talking about this ladder is hopefully giving people that momentum time where we're telling them they're self-protective and they need to grow and they need to drop the veneer of tough guy.

Speaker 2: 6:35

And John, sometimes these things drift a little longer because the guy was smart, he was very, very talented. Yeah that's usually how it works. That's how it works. That's how it works. So we weren't dealing with someone that would just kind of go into the motions, but he was going through the motions and how to be a team player. Let that self-protectiveness go and blend in and be authentic. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:55

Yeah, curiosity. The next category is physical state and this individual, I think you already said is he had an opposing figure, but they sometimes have like illnesses or appetite problems or muscular soreness or, unfortunately, like insomnia, ulcers, potential drug use, alcoholism, and I've seen that with some of the self-protective tradespeople that I've dealt with. Did that individual have some of those tendencies?

Speaker 2: 7:24

I can't say that from a HIPAA standpoint. If that was true, I couldn't tell you anyway.

Speaker 1: 7:28

Oh the HIPAA. I'm sorry, HR, you were in the HR side. I stand corrected, Okay.

Speaker 2: 7:33

But I would also tell you, John, we were probably too afraid to ask him.

Speaker 1: 7:40

Oh, okay, that's fair. Yeah, well, the part that I think I found consistent in people who are either in the unconscious or in the self-protective is they usually have illnesses. Their time off is always a discussion, and attendance in general and attitude in general. Those are the things that kind of affect what they look like, how they feel, how they prepare for the day. You can tell when they're walking through the door, like they were saying well, what kind of mood is he in? They already know that there's signals that that group has been tuned into saying he's in a horrible mood. Just give him a lot of room and stay out of his way and you'll be fine, but this isn't a good day to bring up a new idea to the boss. Yeah, I mean the characteristics of somebody who is in this category. Both this and the level of unconscious is always a challenge for them physically.

Speaker 1: 8:43

The other element that I found interesting about people who are self-protective is their stamp collectors. Conformists and self-protective are stamp collectors. They love to collect stamps. What I mean by that is there's emotional stamps and you collect these emotional stamps and at some level you turn them in for a guilt-free I quit or you have enough of emotional baggage that you've collected over time and you're going to start shouting at executive management because they're just not listening to me. I'm going to have a guilt-free public meeting, embarrassment in my executive staff, those kind of moments in time where you see somebody just set up a trigger. They're stamp collectors. There's things in stamps that they usually collect that are like the following they're doing it to me. We're all going to get fired. I just know it. I'm not getting involved unless I have to. I feel like crap, but the doctors say it's all in my head, I'm right and I don't care what anybody else says. But stamps and those whole things, that element of us against them mentality and the self-protective is a toss between their ego and their self-esteem and they're fighting with those elements within the job. Sometimes they want the approval, sometimes they just want distance. So many other things that Dr Durst talks about that are relevant to self-protective. They feel threatened and they're threatened whether it's a positive or a negative review of themselves.

Speaker 1: 10:36

I think one of the things that I always found aggravating people who are in self-protective is what? One of the things that you talked about, greg. They're very smart, they're very talented and that creates, unfortunately, giving a little bit more space, giving a little bit more time, and then how they conduct themselves, how they talk to people. It's moments in time where they're doing very well, moments in time where they're doing really poorly and you're trying to make a decision because you know that there's a good person there, but they have to fight their way out of wherever they're at mentally. Their behavior at the end of the day becomes intolerable not 100% of the time, but you know that 10%, still 20%. That still affects everyone around them. It affects the department, and I think your example is he was a leader, so there was multiple departments reporting to this individual who's self-protective and that's where you end up losing people and you can see the problems of turnover starting to take off.

Speaker 1: 11:47

One of the interesting quotes that I think self-protective it would be. I guess their buzz line. They're a description of somebody who's in this category, something that Mark Twain said it is better to keep your mouth shut to end a peer stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. And usually the people who are on the self-protective side of it. You're prodding them to talk. When they finally get around talking, they're knowledgeable, they really actually know what their subject matter is.

Speaker 1: 12:23

But they don't want to expose themselves unless they have to, if they feel like they're being cornered. They don't take it sometimes with pride. They take it as being confrontational and it's not. And what's surprising is sometimes they're so talented that they just don't realize it. When you try to compliment them, they don't accept it. That's another stamp, by the way. You try to give a stamp that's an approval and you basically tell the people well, thanks, it's a gold stamp. I don't collect gold stamps. I collect red stamps that are anger or green stamps that are envy, but gold stamps as a recognition is something positive. I don't collect those kind of stamps and in a previous podcast we talked about stamp collecting. I suggest listening to that one. But these are the people that are usually having those tendencies.

Speaker 1: 13:16

Now a lot of new employees are self-protective. Think about it. They don't want to expose themselves in terms of risk. They don't want to be judged. They don't want their limited knowledge to be highlighted because they're going to have limited results until they catch up to others and that fear that they're not going to be able to learn on a job starts to take root. The highest potential for leaving a new job is basically the self-protectives, that without a good mentor, without a good training program, these are the people that will leave. I think that's one of the keys from an HR perspective. Maybe, greg, you can give us your perspective as far as employees coming online.

Speaker 2: 14:01

Thanks, John. Yes, I've been involved in what we call new employee orientation for many, many years. In my latter years I would actually go to new employee orientation as a senior leader just to welcome the new employee to our company. As John is saying, you can imagine they're nervous. They're trying to blend in. They don't want to stick out. They don't want to be embarrassed. They don't want to leave a bad first impression with the HR people or their new fellow employees that are starting on the same day, as John mentioned. That's why there's great mentor programs out there, other training programs, buddy programs, things like that.

Speaker 2: 14:34

It's also important for that manager to invite them in, Call them in to participate. What I mean is they're in a group meeting. Don't embarrass them and say, hey, you're new to the company. What did your company, your old company, used to do on something like this? Actually, welcome them in and invite them in so they don't get lost in the shuffle. One of the things we used to tell new employees in particular is they're so concerned about protecting their image and not coming off bad that they put their head down, put their nose in the grind and they're cranking work out, but they're missing all the other things because the company had lots of engaging opportunities. So everyone's going to lift your head up, get out there and mix up. It's okay, You're part of the team. But new employees are very vulnerable from a self-protecting standpoint because they're out there, they're a big look that they might feel like they're under a microscope.

Speaker 1: 15:22

When I was preparing for this podcast, I found this really interesting platform on the website called shortformcom. It's basically a service that opens up for people to comment about books that they're recommending. It's like the cliff notes of psychology books or books in general. It's a pretty nice site. I suggest looking at shortformcom. But the article that caught my eye was what is a self-protective attitude? The behaviors and risks.

Speaker 2: 15:59

John was that book by Emily Kittizawa?

Speaker 1: 16:03

Yes, thank you. I struggled with that name and Greg has saved me again. What was interesting is she was talking about a book called Transcend by Dr Scott Berry Kaufman. Some people, when they made comments about this book, said it's like taking Masloff to the next level. The last thing I want to do is start comparing Masloff. I think that's a bad idea.

Speaker 1: 16:31

This book, transcend, is based on talking about self-protective attitudes. I thought was interesting is claims that because of self-esteem, it is so important that our psyche. Many people take extreme steps to protect it, leading to self-protective attitudes. Often, these extreme steps are in forms of unhealthy behavior that seemingly help to maintain our high opinion of ourselves but in actuality, prevents us from growing in terms of being self-protective. It is unhealthy behaviors that become an insecurity anisecurity. At the same time, to make up for the insecurities, to protect their self-image, people usually take on self-protective attitude, using behavior in one of two ways they will try to suppress or hide their insecurities, or they'll overcompensate for their insecurities by an inflated ego. Ego and self-esteem. It was the first time I saw those words put together describing self-protective. I think it did a very good job of highlighting that interdependency.

Speaker 1: 17:57

Let me continue from his book Transcend. People who try to hide their insecurities to protect their self-image do so because they're uncertain about their own self-worth. To protect themselves, they hide their feelings from others and actively avoid social situations that may damage their self-image. They also are so desperate for validation from others that they get upset when they feel that they aren't getting the attention that they expect or deserve.

Speaker 1: 18:34

This kind of self-protective attitude prevents growth, because if someone avoids any person or situation that might be damaging, they may also inadvertently avoid people in situations that could bring them joy and connectedness involvement with others. Also, if someone is too focused on validation from others, their identity will be dependent upon pleasing others. As far as quoting, I'd like to stop there and just say how much of this is so true in terms of people who I've seen in self-protective. They're avoiding it, but they want recognition. There's problems with self-esteem, but they're fighting with ego, so they don't want to lose their own selves in the process. Greg, I think you had an interesting example, taking this from more of a psychologist approach, maybe give a real life example.

Speaker 2: 19:37

Will do, john. Thank you. I think about this from time to time. The first thing I think of is somebody kicked their dog when they were a kid. This behavior didn't happen 10 years ago or 20 years ago, but went early on in life. There was a senior level manager. They're that same kind of MO very smart, extremely talented, great capability, problem solving, etc. But constantly demonstrated their need to protect their image and self-use at all possible costs. They became very defensive when someone might question their opinion or their viewpoint. They became actually combatant about that sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Example I have with this individual was we were in an off-site meeting and they were more in what I call corporate management. They weren't in operational management, but they knew a lot about how our operation ran. We had to flip chart up there and this one gentleman was trying to explain this process that was going on and just really had a hard time doing it. So this other individual, the person we're talking about, got up on the flip chart, put a couple of drawings, said a couple of words and we got it. It was like thank you, that's crystal clear now and so I remember at our break I went over to him and said listen, thanks for doing that, thanks for getting up there and helping make this more understandable to the participants. I said you know what? I'm going to work with some of my team and work with you and see if we can have you get involved in some of these kind of explanations in the future.

Speaker 2: 21:05

And he stopped me dead in my tracks. That's your job. I'm not doing that, no way. No how I said. But what you did was really helpful and you did it in a way that people understood it better than the person who's a technical expert. I don't care, that's just not me. That's not what I do. You know I do this other job. You want someone to help with your job? Go find somebody else. And I was appalled but not surprised again that this very talented individual was not interested. They were protecting their ego. They were protecting, you know, I'm not a person. Gets on flip charts and makes marks and whatever. I don't train people. That's your job. And he was fierce about his desire not to be helpful in the future.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Wow, and the person that was struggling. That was one of his direct reports, right?

Speaker 2: 21:49

Actually it was a peer. Oh wow, Okay, so he was a team situation here. He actually got up and we thank you for helping out, and then he slammed it shut that door as quickly as he could.

Speaker 1: 22:00

Wow yeah, self protective to the ultimate degree, and even in an executive element of it. Unfortunately, these people are all over the map in terms of where they are in the responsibility ladder and yep. I think at least this gives a little bit of a better impression of self-protective and I hope that helps to understand the characteristics in terms of lifestyles.

Speaker 2: 22:29

So, john, one thing you and I've talked about is the downstream effects of having people like this, that are self-protected, in leadership roles, and we talked about things like performance reviews, we talked about employee engagement surveys, we talked about turnover Turnover, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:46

And wasn't it one of the things that you found in terms of doing some of your audits and some of your 360s that people who have that kind of tendencies that are in executive positions are creating that turnover, because really the new generation is looking for ethics and how to apply the job and have some kind of I don't know mission-driven approach, and this guy definitely wasn't a player.

Speaker 2: 23:14

Wasn't a player, wasn't developing people, wasn't creating a legacy of good leadership and management, and, yes, people became frustrated and left and others just weren't interested as well, because it wasn't a fun environment. And he's a human being first and foremost, but as a leadership role and even as an individual contributor, you have a responsibility to be more authentic, put your guard down, working on a team and contributing to a team, and that was really really difficult for him, to the point where we had to go in our separate ways.

Speaker 1: 23:47

Excellent. Well, I think that is a pretty good place to stop. What is our next?

Speaker 2: 23:54

podcast Greg. So John, our next episode will be a discussion again on the five levels of responsibilities, focusing on level number three, conformist.

Speaker 1: 24:04

Yeah, and we'll have a little bit of elements of what we've been talking about with self-protective and see how that interplays with conformist Excellent. So if you like what you've heard, there is that music. My book Building your Leadership Toolbox is available on amazoncom and lulucom. Success Secrets and Stories Podcast is on what you're listening to and also available in other popular podcast formats. Dr Durst's books and his MBR program is available at successgrowthacademycom, and music has been brought to you by my grandson.

Speaker 2: 24:45

Yeah, so thank Greg, thanks John, as always next time.