Success Secrets and Stories
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Success Secrets and Stories
Mindful Management: Embracing Honest Conversations for Change
Next, we journey through the early 2000s, a pivotal time for the print media industry as it grappled with the rise of online journalism. Drawing parallels to Kodak's downfall, we reflect on missed opportunities and the vital need for fierce conversations to adapt and thrive amidst industry shifts. We highlight how crucial it is for frontline employees to voice their observations and for leaders to engage in productive, albeit sometimes uncomfortable, discussions. Stay with us as we prepare to merge the fierce conversations methodology with the one-minute manager strategies in our upcoming episode, enhancing frontline management training to meet the demands of modern challenges.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Well, hello and welcome to Success in Secrets and Stories. I'm your host, john Wawoski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Powell. Greg, hey, everybody, yeah, and we're going to have a little bit of fun. Today, we're going to talk about, I think, one of the most important books that I've used as a supervisor and as a manager, and both Greg and I have found it as a very good reference in terms of frontline management. So this podcast is going to be talking about the communications approach, or the psychology associated with fierce conversations, by Susan Scott. Now, she is a bestselling author that has worked on leadership development and, for the last two decades, a global training company that helped over a thousand companies generating significant results by transforming conversations central to their success, and I know that she was a required reading for me on two of my jobs and I won't tell you how many jobs I've had in total, but I think I've talked about that in the past, a very good author, and it've talked about that in the past, a very good author.
Speaker 2:And it's something I like in the forward. And the forward was done by one of my favorite authors, ken Blanchard, who did the One Minute Manager, and just before he made this quote he said well, if you're not going to read the rest of the book, understand this Our lives succeed or fail gradually. Then, suddenly, one conversation at a time. And he also said that this book, fierce Conversation, will help you gain those insights and skills to make every conversation count. Greg, why don't you start us off a little bit about the book that we found really interesting for this format, fierce.
Speaker 1:Conversations. Thanks, john. Let's start off with just that. What is a fierce conversation? And in its simplest form, a fierce conversation is one in which we come out from behind ourselves, right behind those masks, and get into the conversation and make it real. And many of our folks are afraid of a real conversation, and it is the unreal conversations that we should really be afraid of, not the real ones. And whoever said talk was cheap was mistaken. Unreal conversations are incredibly expensive for the individual and for the organization.
Speaker 2:And keeping it real is actually something that we've talked about in this podcast before and things that Dr Durst talks about, and I saw a lot of similarities that I saw especially in this outline of Fierce Conversations. One of the first categories is having the courage to integrate reality. From her book. At first glance, it seems like it's a nonsensical thing to do Reality just is. Ken talked about it. I thought it was a very good description of the book, but there is an outline that we have from Fierce Conversation. Greg, why don't you start us off with our first keynote?
Speaker 1:Thank you, john. My first keynote is to master the courage to interrogate reality. So at first glance it seems kind of like a nonsensical thing to do. Reality just is right. You don't need to interrogate reality. We live in the present, and the spread of the internet has rendered us more informed than ever before, right, well, maybe not so much. We connect with the people who are similar to us. We follow blogs and channels that interest us and say what we want to hear.
Speaker 1:Most people live in their own bubbles and are not really aware of when and how things change, or how the other people change, for that matter. Getting out of the comfort zone and probing how things truly stand is highly necessary. So let me tell you about number two Come out from behind yourself into the conversation and make it real. So what does Susan say? Susan Scott says that it's not the genuine conversations we should dread, but the unreal ones. They may not be uncomfortable while they are happening, but in the long run they're the ones that are the most detrimental. Talking just for the sake of talking does not solve anything and in the end proves to run rather expensive, both for the individual and for the organization, when it's paramount for things for people to change in order to get out of a situation or to simply make some progress. A real conversation is key. It will lead to transformation before it's even over.
Speaker 2:And what I found really interesting about that point is very similar to what Dr Durst was talking about is your real self or being true to yourself. The one line that I always love is that if you're lying to yourself, you're the fool. But becoming real and actually understanding what it is that you're in the middle of and that part kind of rolls in really well with the third idea, the third concept Be here, prepare to be nowhere else. It is difficult for conversations that require true presence. There is a lot of value placed in these days in things that are called mindfulness. It's the art or the skill of being in the moment and dealing with things that have happened instead of wondering what could have gone differently in the past, projecting into the future. Like it will happen.
Speaker 2:It's not guaranteed that an organization or an individual will change because of one discussion, but it isn't impossible. Either A hard talk has to be planned and carried out with the utmost attention and participation, or otherwise it won't count. Dr Durst talked about being in the now, and the things that happened in the past are nothing more than a recording, and that whole element of being present isn't reallyyou might miss the nuances of what that really means, but the essence of being in the situation. Stop with the history and stop with the goals and dreaming. What are we doing in reality in the moment? And it's really hard in some conversations to hear how people have a real problem with this concept of being in the now. Greg, I think you got the next one.
Speaker 1:Yes, john, thank you. Point number four tackle your toughest challenge today. We all tend to avoid or postpone things that make us uncomfortable, and, being one of those that represents the procrastinating group, I can say that happened to me a lot in my career. So while that's natural, it's also very counterproductive because we end up carrying around a burden or worry a lot longer than would be necessary. Once the problem is named, it is almost solved. That's really key. Let me say that again, once the problem is named, you're on your way to having it solved right. Figuring out what the greatest issue is and dealing with it on the spot instead of kind of letting it float in some undefinable times, will ensure a much smoother path. To deal with it in some undefinable times. To ensure a much smoother path. So deal with it. Getting rid of the daunting agenda and staying current with those who are really important will bring a much better vibe and a greater chance of success.
Speaker 2:I like that better vibe.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's trying to change and we're going to talk about some of the nuances that go along with these kind of tough conversations. But don't take the softball pitches right. It's overhand, it's high and it's close to the chin and you're going to try your best to hit it. So I'll take the next one. Obey your instincts. Our instincts are responsible for our survival and our evolution. They come from the oldest part of our brain and, to this day, are responsible for our decision making. The brain has a capacity of language and so most of the time, we do or do not do something Really explaining our reasons or resort to. It's just a gut feeling.
Speaker 2:In difficult conversations, it's important to not only trust but actually go with your instincts. It's just another way of being present To be aware, although it doesn't seem like a lack of worded arguments are in control. You have to be the owner of what it is that you're saying. You can overthink a reaction. You can overthink a response. You can overthink a response, but usually your heart is in the right place and people can tell the difference whether you are speaking from your true self or you're just trying to be cooperative and going with the herd and really not taking any kind of ownership. If you're playing from your gut, it really is that element of our own instincts and you're probably right. So that's one of the things that Susan's trying to encourage. Greg, I think you have the next one.
Speaker 1:Thank you, john. Yeah, point number six take responsibility for your emotional wake. This principle is a favorite of Susan's. As a trainer, she's often said she's had to deliver feedback that was not necessarily great. For a long time, the company requirement was that I do so in a sandwich manner, saying something positive and something constructive, and then saying something even more positive right, a happy sandwich, everything's going okay. I buried in there that non-fun thing and that's not maybe the right way to go. There was a great fear of hurting feelings or giving wrong impressions, but that's what happened. So you got that anyway. Right With that bad sandwich. A genuine message has to be delivered without this kind of negative load.
Speaker 1:One of the best or sorry, one of the most powerful insights in this book is that the conversation is not about the relationship. The conversation is the relationship, and, as I've been known to repeat things from time to time, I think this is one that's worthy of that. So one of the most powerful insights of this book is that the conversation is not about the relationship at all. The conversation is exactly the relationship, john.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've seen arguments. One of the interesting elements in terms of conversations that have gone awry is also cultural. I was dealing with some folks from England and then the person who I was dealing with was an arbitrator, a lawyer, so he wanted an argument. He didn't want to have a point by point conversation, he wanted an active, fierce conversation, which I was really foreign to at the time. I adapted very quickly, that wasn't hard. But, yeah, that is an amazing truth that sometimes you have to also understand your audience and to that end, I wanted to talk about the next one I think is one of the most important ones Let silence do your heavy lifting. Most important ones Let silence do your heavy lifting.
Speaker 2:When there is too much talk in a conversation, ideas are very likely lost in between words. Just as motivational speakers know that pauses are needed in order to make things sink in and to react, and fierce conversation needs silence as well. Insights occur in those spaces in between the words that are being spoken. Memorable talks have breathing time and allow for inner dialogue. That's where the aha moments happen and true changes occur.
Speaker 2:I love the term aha, because that's one of the things that Dr Durst talked about too, where you have that aha moment, where you're allowing yourself to actually process and realize maybe you're making a mistake, maybe you've made a new discovery, but that ability to open up and listen happens, happens. And that silence. I've used that tool to help pull people into the conversation, because if they're just sitting there and you're talking especially if it's a problem and it's got to get a cure and they're not engaged in the conversation, I'm going to let silence do the heavy lifting of you need to engage Without having to say it. The silence actually pulled it together for us pretty quickly. Craig, I think you can wrap this up a little bit and I think you have an example I do.
Speaker 1:John. So let me give you a little bit of the conclusion and, I think, an example that might help bring it home. So I find there is no better conclusion to this model than the one that the author said herself. It must answer the big questions in our organization. What are the questions that need posing? Philosophers, theologians, scientists and great teachers have debated this for ages, and the fact that a recent company that I work for we did get tied up a lot in a good way around. What are the questions we should be asking? What are the questions we haven't asked? What is real? What is honest? What is quality? What has value?
Speaker 1:We really affect change by engaging in robust conversations with ourselves, our colleagues, our customers, our family and the world. So, whether you are governing a country, running an organization or participating in a committed personal relationship, your ability to affect change will increase as you become more responsive to your world and to the individuals who are central to your happiness and success. And I have an example from the early 2000s, and I was working for a print media company. From the early 2000s, and I was working for a print media company, and this was about the time the public's view of what a newspaper should be and what a blog should be, started to kind of come together. And so, on the print media side, we had folks in leadership as well as folks doing the hard jobs. That somewhat romanticized what was going on in the print media. People want to read the paper, they want to pick it up, they want to touch it, they want to hold it, they want to divvy up the comics and give it to the kids and give dad his sports section and whatever, and that's really what they want, and they will wait for us to give them the news we want to give them at the time. We want to give it. And, oh, us to give them the news we want to give them at the time. We want to give it. And oh, by the way, if they want two editions a day, we'll print up another one for them.
Speaker 1:And we were very comfortable with that, while we're watching on the sidelines this kind of growing, this emerging situation of journalism online and just folks that maybe weren't as qualified as we thought would qualify to present the news and check their references and check their sources. And so, at the end of the day, a business is in business to make money and maximize shareholder wealth. We got to a point where we weren't doing that as well as we should or could have been doing. And so when you were talking to some of the senior folks in advertising sales or the copywriting folks and photographers and all the editorial folks great people they were still drinking the coffee.
Speaker 1:And then we had somebody who wasn't drinking the coffee, someone from our financial group, and said take a look at this, look at these numbers. What we're doing today is not getting us the financial results we need today and tomorrow. And it was difficult just to get that first conversation out. But we really needed more and we probably should have had them a year or so beforehand because we just made some assumptions. We weren't ready to face those hard truths that guess what people may not want the printed piece every morning, picking it up at the train station on the way into the office, way into the office. Had we asked that question in a very fierce conversation style, we probably would have had a different outcome that would have been more favorable.
Speaker 2:There's also the challenge of the age of the people that are in executive positions that romanticized about the 1960s, and you know you're talking about what. Was it early 2000s? Yes, and I'm willing to bet that the average age in that room was 50 or older.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So one of my favorites when I think about a similar problem was Kodak. Kodak really believed that they were going to have film until the end of time, because it's art and they can do black and white and you can do things and staging it, and no one's going to go with this electronic stuff because it's just a fad. And so kodak, unfortunately, had designed a electronic approach and had that camera that could do digital, but they didn't invest in it. Same reason, because people are going to want to feel that picture in their hand. There's that whole thing of development and seeing it coming in the mail. Nope, another industry. And I think that comes back to that one ultimate joke. And that one ultimate joke.
Speaker 2:If you're the one who's trying to promote something that you know is a lie, the only person you're fooling is yourself and you know in your gut that it's wrong. But you've been in the paper for so long and you've got 35 years in the company and you know that the paper needs to survive. That has nothing to do with reality. That's something else. Reality is really that challenge that you have to keep and you have to be engaged. That's the challenge, and Ferris Conversation, I think, did a very good job of setting us up to understand. I found it as a great book. I think you found it as a very good book.
Speaker 2:It's like one of those that you would hope you would be able to give to your frontline people when they start, because if they start understanding that just being agreeable doesn't mean that you're doing it right. And of course, everybody, when they first start, are just trying to conform. They're not trying to be rebels, but if you see something that's wrong and you didn't say anything, that's going to be just as detrimental. And really, if you're looking at trying to advance, you're looking at trying to be a productive part of leadership. Fierce conversations are a requirement, not a luxury. So, greg, what are we going to be talking about next week?
Speaker 1:So, john, we're going to continue to talk about the fierce conversation approach and the one-minute manager concepts and putting those together, because those two programs are really interconnected from a training standpoint and an approach for your frontline management Awesome.
Speaker 2:So, if you like what you've heard, my book is available on amazoncom and lulucom. My ebook is available in Barnes and Noble, as well as in Amazon. Podcasts are available on the popular format that you are listening to and others. Dr durst's books and his mbr program is available at successgrowthacademycom. If you would like to get a hold of us, we have a couple ways. One is buy us a cup of coffee. There's the ability to send us a message to that format. My email is wandos75.jw at gmailcom and Greg I can be reached at gpowell374 at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the music is brought to you by my grandson, so we want to hear from you, let us know how we're doing. Well, greg, thanks, thanks, john as always always next time.