What can an ancient medicinal mushroom teach us about sustainable living? Join us as Jerry Ouellette, former Ontario Minister of Natural Resources, shares his unexpected journey from politics to natural health, inspired by the chaga mushroom. Discover how Jerry's transformation has shaped his commitment to a lifestyle rooted in nature, offering valuable insights into holistic living and conservation.
Next, we bring you an enlightening discussion with Kent Mullinix, the Director of the Institute for Sustainable Food Systems at Kwantlen Polytechnic University. Kent unpacks his extensive career in agricultural research and education, from the halls of the University of Missouri to the fertile fields of Canada. Learn about the cutting-edge work being done to create resilient food systems and sustainable agricultural practices that address future food security challenges.
What can an ancient medicinal mushroom teach us about sustainable living? Join us as Jerry Ouellette, former Ontario Minister of Natural Resources, shares his unexpected journey from politics to natural health, inspired by the chaga mushroom. Discover how Jerry's transformation has shaped his commitment to a lifestyle rooted in nature, offering valuable insights into holistic living and conservation.
Next, we bring you an enlightening discussion with Kent Mullinix, the Director of the Institute for Sustainable Food Systems at Kwantlen Polytechnic University. Kent unpacks his extensive career in agricultural research and education, from the halls of the University of Missouri to the fertile fields of Canada. Learn about the cutting-edge work being done to create resilient food systems and sustainable agricultural practices that address future food security challenges.
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Speaker 3:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe.
Speaker 3:After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy, Under the Canopy Colleges and Institutes, Canada, yes, and you were doing a presentation out there that I happened to pleasure to sit in on, but tell us about whereabouts are you located?
Speaker 4:Kent, jerry, I'm on Vancouver Island home, which is on the traditional and unceded territory of the Souk Nation on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The town is called Souk, british Columbia, but I'm with Kwantlen Polytechnic University, which is based in the lower mainland of British Columbia, and my office there is in Richmond.
Speaker 3:And what you commute back and forth between the island and over.
Speaker 4:Well, I mostly work from the home office and our whole team largely works from home, which started with the pandemic, and we found that we were able to do just as good a work more effectively, more efficiently, working remotely and meeting on the internet.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay.
Speaker 4:And yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. So at the where you were at, what programs do you handle or what's your title there? If you don't mind me asking Ken.
Speaker 4:I am the director of the Institute for Sustainable Food Systems at Quang Phan Polytechnic University, and the ISFS is an applied research and extension unit at the university. So, as the name implies, we conduct applied research and informal education programming, all in support of advancing a deeply sustainable agriculture and food systems in British Columbia and beyond, and so we're a team of many different disciplines. I'm an agriculturist and we have other agriculturists on our team. Agriculture is on our team. We also have indigenous foodways specialists, economists, planners, policy specialists, soil scientists, agroecologists, etc. And we bring people onto the staff as is needed. We maintain a core staff, and so we do applied research, which is designed to address a challenge, and we do informal education to mobilize knowledge and help practitioners adopt knowledge and change, all to advance sustainable agriculture and food systems.
Speaker 3:Now, Kate, you've got quite a history in a lot of other college and universities, not only in Canada but in the States as well. Maybe you could give us a little bit of a background on some of those ones and what you did there, and how did you get into all these different areas as well, if you don't mind me asking.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, no, happy to share. So I have been an academic for 47 years and I began my career at 21, 22, at the University of Missouri, where I earned an undergraduate degree in agriculture, majoring in horticulture, specializing in fruit and vegetable production. And immediately upon graduation I was hired by the university to be a fruit and nut crops research specialist, and so I worked with the faculty fruit and nut crop lead and earned a master's degree from the University of Missouri in horticulture, emphasizing fruit crop production, and then went off. And Then went off and worked for a little over a year at the University of Minnesota, outside of the Twin Cities, in their breeding apple breeding program. I was a junior scientist in the apple breeding program. That's the program that developed Honeycrisp apples.
Speaker 3:Oh, is that where it was? Just you were part of that program that developed that.
Speaker 4:That's correct. Yeah, and I was there for a little over a year again and then I went to work for the University of Kentucky at the Western Kentucky Research and Education Center in Princeton and again I was a research specialist in fruit crops, tree fruit crops, and I worked for the state tree fruit extension specialist and stayed there for a year and decided to go back to graduate school and so I went back to the University of Missouri and got a PhD in agriculture education specializing in curriculum and program development. And then in 1984, was hired by Wenatchee Valley College in Wenatchee, washington, to develop an associate degree program in tree fruit production to support Washington's tree fruit industry years and ran a large undergraduate program training Washington State's horticulturists, orchardists, orchard managers, field consultants, research assistants, et cetera, research assistants, et cetera, and ultimately Roussi took on the position of endowed joint chair in pomology at Washington State University. And then 17 years ago my family and I decided to immigrate to canada and of course we we had gotten to know canada quite well because wenatchee is just two and a half hours south of the border, just below the Okanagan in British Columbia, and I spent a lot of time up in BC's Okanagan working with apple growers there and scientists, extension personnel, and just came to really appreciate Canada, really appreciate Canada.
Speaker 4:And so in 1997, I did a year sabbatical at the University of British Columbia to study entomology and integrated pest management, in emphasizing tree fruit, and as a result earned a PhD in plant science from the University of British Columbia. And in 2004, focusing on tree fruit pest management. Yeah, and for that research, actually it's very interesting. I think I demonstrated that in the arid Northwest you could actually grow apples without using any pesticides Really and still produce an economically viable crop. And yeah, so then 10 years later, in 2007, I accepted a position, a short-term research contract with Quantman Polytechnic University and resigned my professorship at WSU and family and I immigrated to Canada and I've been with KPU ever since Very good, and I'm now a Canadian citizen.
Speaker 3:Very good. I'm now a Canadian citizen Very good, so officially, one of the other titles is you're a pomologist, which is the study of fruits and nuts. In that aspect, right.
Speaker 4:Yep, that's correct Technically. My academic discipline is pomology, the study of fruit and nut crop production, and my specialty is deciduous temperate zone fruit crops, so apples, pears, sweet cherries, peaches, nectarines, apricots, those kinds of crops.
Speaker 3:So when you talked about developing your apples without pesticides for crops and that, when you talked about developing your apples without pesticides for crops, and that do you mind.
Speaker 4:How did you get into? How did you find a productive way in order to mass produce apples in orchards without pesticides? Well, it was kind of a serendipitous event. I don't know if your listeners know that for apple production, just like a lot of horticultural crops, copious quantities of pesticides are used, and in my interest to advance deeply sustainable agriculture and food systems I simply was interested in. Well, let me back up a little bit. So a lot of pesticides are used, targeting a whole range of arthropod pests, and in the literature critical of our dependence on pesticides there is create more pests pestiferous because they have no. There are no natural enemies in the environment anymore, in the orchard environment.
Speaker 4:So I became aware of this and simply wanted to ask the question that nobody seemed willing to ask why are we using all these pesticides? Possibly be such serious pests that we need to spray toxic materials six, seven, eight times or more during the growing season and cover our apples with the residue of this? The National Resource Defense Council listed apples as one of the dirty dozen crops pesticide residue. So the question is why? Why do we have to do this? Do we have to do this, and the literature suggested that perhaps many of the pests what we call secondary pests were pesticide-induced. So I just devised an experiment in a teaching and research orchard that we had in Wenatchee, in a seven-acre block, I conducted a replicated trial where on acres we would just eliminate any application of pesticides and of synthetic pesticides and really and it was a four-year experiment, so it gave enough time for the arthropod population dynamic to get settled.
Speaker 4:And so the first year all of these pests just went crazy, particularly leaf rollers, and then in the second year all their populations collapsed, and they collapsed because of natural disease or predation by spiders and wasps and other aphid lions, ladybird beetles etc.
Speaker 4:And so every pest arthropod pests that we sprayed for in Washington orchards became non-pestiferous by year three. Really, only one species, the coddling moth, which is the classic worm in the apple, remained a pest, and that's because it's exotic, it's from Europe and there are no natural enemies in North America for it. But we were able to manage it through integrated means using mating disruption, where we inundate the orchard environment with the mating pheromone of the codling moth, which confuses the males and they can't find the females to mate. Application of a granulovirus, which is a virus disease specific to the codling moth, and sanitation, just finding quote stung apples and removing them from the tree and disposing of them, and so we were able to manage at acceptable levels. The codling moth and all other secondary pests became non-pests and we crunched the numbers. In fact, it was more profitable to eliminate the pesticides.
Speaker 3:So the cost of utilizing the pesticides, and I know I was offered a 15-acre apple orchard and here in Ontario.
Speaker 3:I went through the ministry of agriculture and it was a three-day course and in order to take the course I had to buy a complete enclosed body suit for breathing. When you sprayed all the sprays here and things like scab, which is another thing that they were spraying for that, uh, it was you were looking at spraying about seven times that crop in order to come up with what we view as a picture-perfect classic apple. But what you're telling me is that, with what you've done here that the cost compared to the cost of sprays and the additional picking those apples and those things, it was more efficient and more cost-effective to not utilize the chemicals. Is that what I heard correctly?
Speaker 4:That's what you heard, yeah.
Speaker 3:Now, is that something that can?
Speaker 4:be done. You know. The qualifier for that, jerry, is that first of all I would say that it was slightly economically advantageous to eliminate the insecticides, but not significantly so. So essentially it was equivalent. This, you know, in agriculture, because we're so industrialized, we want one size to fit all and we don't do agriculture much. That is place-based, which seems hard to believe, presents a distinctly different growing environment than Ontario or the Midwest of the US or the East Coast in the Maritimes or down the Atlantic Coast into the States. So different growing environments. So what we did in the Northwest would likely not necessarily be replicable in Ontario. So, for example, in the arid Northwest British Columbia and Washington there is no need for scab sprays, right, it's just not a dominant disease, whereas in Ontario, as you said, you'd spray seven times for scab.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:There's also an arthropod pest in the Midwest and East part of North America called Plum Curculio, which does not occur in the West. Okay, yeah, so it's different, but you know, conceptually it's applicable and the fact of the matter is, but you'd have to do this exploration in Ontario. The question is what pests are being created by the application of pesticides and do we need all these pesticides, and the likely answer is no.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree completely and I used to do when I was in the legislature and had that privilege and honor to serve the province here. I regularly said that here we herbicide, pesticide, sanitize, purify areas in order to produce a monocultural, to grow a single product, and it's not in the best interest of our environment completely when we do that, in my opinion, that we come up with all these things and it's like atrazine was used to grow corn and killed everything else off. And in here, essentially it's the same with a lot of crops that we start to look at. But when we start to find these alternatives that they need to be explored a little bit more and probably better received, or ways like making people aware, like what we're doing on the podcast here is that there's alternatives that might be available out there.
Speaker 4:Well, absolutely. There are alternatives, and it is, in my opinion, a travesty that we are willing to sacrifice the health of our environment and the health of our children to support the industrial agriculture economy, and that's exactly what we're doing. And that realization is what spurred me to start focusing my work on deep sustainability in agriculture, in our food system.
Speaker 3:So Kent, where because I have an organic crop of apples that I work with or try to where do I get the pheromone for the coddling moth, because that was the one thing that I did have problems with in the past. Is that something that can be picked up fairly regularly at your co-ops here in Ontario or a similar place?
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, yeah, I would think so. Yeah, I mean, it's commercially available. And it's registered in Canada.
Speaker 3:So it's a specific pheromone that deals with coddling moth.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly, and it's in the emitters, the ones I've used. They're like a twist tie on a loaf of bread. Okay, but within this twist tie is the pheromone and you tie it into the top of the canopy and it slowly emits the pheromone and you just saturate the orchard with this pheromone. Saturate the orchard with this pheromone. Zero mammalian toxicity, zero off species impact or toxicity, no toxicity at all. And it just confuses the males and they can't find the females and so they don't mate. There's no egg laying and no eggs laid. There's no larvae boring burrowing into apples Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the pheromone that I worked with before. It kind of came in a little box that was almost like a triangle and it was on the sides and it would go inside and then the moths would get stuck on the inside, the males.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, so those are attractants. Yeah, pheromone attractants. Yeah, so yeah, these kinds of biologically based management tools take on many different forms.
Speaker 3:Right Now, one of the things when we talk about all these sprays and chemicals that are utilized and we're talking about apple orchards or orchards what would be the impact on the soil then and how long would that last? When you mentioned your program, that you did, and it was a four-year program would there still be residual sprays or what's the half-lights of the chemicals that were utilized in those areas? Would they still be around or would they have dissipated?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, you know I can't answer that question, jerry. We didn't look at it Right and we were looking at insecticides exclusively. We were looking at insecticides exclusively. This research was conducted in a conventional orchard environment, so glyphosate was used to manage weeds in the tree row, but most certainly without any specifics. Many of these agrochemicals that we use insecticides, herbicides, fungicides contaminate the soil, environment and environment, and some are retained for long durations of time. Some are not. Some are retained in their original chemical composition. Others deteriorate to form secondary materials that in some instances can be more toxic than the original material. But you know, the fact of the matter is we don't know a whole lot about the fate of these materials, and what we really don't know is how they interact in the environment right and in some of the things kent that I work with and research with it.
Speaker 3:I'm a. I do primary research from a number of products that I work with is the arbuscular mycological relationship found within the soil between the trees and we briefly discussed that when we were in Calgary whereby there are now indications in some of the research that's done out in BC I think her name is Susan, if I remember correctly In UBC yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, where now the fungal relationship in the soil is passing nutrients and also materials to let, and the one example that was used in the research that I saw was tomato plants, where, when the tomato plants were, one of the plants was being attacked by insects that were consuming the leaves, it sent notes through the soil that had the other plants release materials to deter those insects from consuming the leaves. Is that something that you've gone to that extent to look at?
Speaker 4:I have not looked at that, but I'm aware of the documentation of this. And you know, biochemical communication is how many species communicate. We're oral communicators and well, actually, to some extent we're also biochemical communicators, but mostly visual and oral. But other organisms that don't have those capabilities, they communicate biochemically. And you know, these kinds of discoveries are wonderful. They're not ultimately a surprise to me. No, there's so much about life that we simply don't have a clue about. I'm oftentimes amazed at how obsessed we are with exploration of space when there's so much to explore and understand right beneath our feet.
Speaker 3:Exactly, Exactly, and there was a book that was out there called the Trees Can Talk, and it focused on African trees that sent out chemical responses when giraffes were eating those leaves. So there's a lot of these things that are happening out there that we are unaware of, but we're becoming more and more aware of them and I think it's important that we understand those relationships to gain an understanding of the entire system, not just a singular component of well for apple growers, it's producing an apple that people want to buy For apple growers, it's producing an apple that people want to buy.
Speaker 4:Well, exactly, I could not agree with you more. In agriculture, we have begun to concern ourselves with not just a linear production paradigm. You know, seed, fertilizer, water equals yield, equals profit. We're starting to employ the perspective of agroecology and creating functional agroecosystems that are designed and operated in ways that minimize their impact and compromisation of the larger ecosystem, and the only way to do that is to be cognizant of these sophisticated relationships.
Speaker 3:And the more and more that we develop this, we gain a better understanding of ourselves from my perspective as well, such that antibiotics that people are taking are killing off all the beneficial components in the same way that you just finished talking about the herbicides, the pesticides, the insecticides and the fungicides killing off the bad ones, but they're taking the good ones as well, and it potentially it could be happening when we're taking antibiotics to some extent, where then people have to take probiotics in order to bring back that good gut bacteria for everybody for digestive reasons.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, again, that's exactly right. I often tell students that what they learn about agroecology and plant growth and development and the interactions with soil and water and air will teach them as much about themselves as about the crop plants. Because we're all living creatures, we're all connected on this earth. Think we need to be is just fully appreciate and inculcate that you know, this is a living world, right, and we're part of that living world, and what we do to it, we do to ourselves, what we do to us ourselves, we do to the world, and we need to start thinking about the human economy in terms of its larger impact on creation, and we've got to jettison these notions of resources are here for our exploitation and when we've exploited them to the fullest extent, there'd be something else to take its place, because that just isn't the case.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and everybody's looking for that singular quick fix. No, quick fix. It's the same with what we're talking, you know, from my perspective from carbon. Now we're dealing with a lot of carbon and there's too much carbon and causing global warming. But if you look at all the other aspects that are not included, for and I'm not sure of your research, but one of the things I found when I was Minister of Natural Resources was that dams, if they're a top flow dam, the water is heated by the sun and then flows over the top of a dam and you'll find as much as 10 degrees difference at the bottom of the dam where it's flowed over into, simply because the sun's warming it. That's causing issues as well. So yeah, yeah, yeah, and if so, what we try to do or try to promote was bottom flow dams so that the water could flow underneath and you change that by as much as 10 degrees just in those streams.
Speaker 3:But there's so many other things that I found when I was minister as well. It was a rooftop and blacktop, what it's called All the roadways and the sidewalks and the roofs that we have there. Would you rather walk on a hot day on a barefoot, on a paved driveway or on a green grass Certainly kind of gives some indications of the difference in temperature. And what happens when we start to add all these things up, that that they make a difference, not just a singular quick fix. Oh, we've got to deal with carbon because there's so many other things that could have an impact. I find out there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, quite right. Well, that, to me, is really the perspective we need to take. These things add up and we need to decide how we're going to organize and operate our economy. We can do so cognizant of environmental impacts and respectful of the need to maintain the integrity of the ecosystems and environmental function, or we can do what we've been doing, which is not care, yes, but that's not going to work out well for us, as we're witnessing. Exactly, exactly.
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Speaker 5:How about food?
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Speaker 3:And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, I'm here in Millbrook with Trevor, who had a great experience and wants to share it with us with the skin cream, the Chaga skin cream.
Speaker 5:Trevor, tell us what you went through and how much you used and go ahead. I've had eczema on my arm since I was a little kid. It's always been quite a rough patch there on my arm and no lotion seemed to ever get it so that it was smooth Right. But using the Chaga, probably for three weeks, it feels like normal skin now. Yeah, and how often did you put it on? I put it on maybe once every other day. I didn't remember to do it every day, so once every other day, one time a day.
Speaker 3:Very good and you had great results, and now it feels like normal skin again. Very good.
Speaker 5:And you didn't try anything else, so you figure that's what. No, that worked, so I'm sticking with that.
Speaker 3:Very so I'm sticking with that. Very good. Well, thanks, trevor, here in Millbrook. Yeah, okay, we interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom. Over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY C-A-N-O-P-Y.
Speaker 3:If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening. Back to the episode you mentioned about. It just spurred my interest about the development of the honey crisp. Is that trade secrets at the IP, the intellectual property for that? Which two trees did you use to come by honey crisps?
Speaker 4:You know I don't know, I know, I don't know, actually I don't know. Okay, so you know, it takes about 50 years to develop an apple cultivar. So I don't even know when the cross was made, but it wasn't made when I was there.
Speaker 3:Right. So it was made sometime around the time I was there. So then I have another question for you. So from your palmologist background. Now I did a show on apples and people don't realize that you have to pollinate from a different tree, not the tree that is there. So a couple of the questions came up then was if you pollinate, say, one tree one year with, say, crab apples, crab apple pollen, will it produce the same fruit if it's pollinated from? Well, you mentioned honeycrisp, honeycrisp pollen.
Speaker 4:No it will not. So the fact that apples are extremely heterozygous, which means there's a lot of genetic variability from tree to tree, from cultivar to cultivar, and any open pollinated apple will be completely unpredictable in terms of its characteristics and though ultimately you can predict that it would likely not be even remotely edible, it would be more like a crab apple, be more like a crab apple. So to get a honey crisp, for example, or a Fuji or a Gala apple, they would make thousands of crosses.
Speaker 4:The breeder would make thousands of crosses of specific parentage One parent that exhibits X characteristics and another parent that exhibits Y characteristics and the objective is to bring these desirable characteristics together Right, and then collect the seeds from the fruit of these controlled crosses and then germinate those seeds and line out the seedlings and grow them until they produce a single apple. And then they simply taste that apple and ask themselves does that have potential to look at further or does it not? So my job in the University of Minnesota's apple breeding program, in addition to keeping records, was substantially just walking up and down rows of seedling apple trees, tasting the apples and making a determination of whether they should just be discarded or looked at further.
Speaker 3:So I think I maybe didn't clarify my question enough. So what I'm referring to is if you have a honeycrisp tree and the blossoms get pollinated from another tree, from, say, another honeycrisp tree.
Speaker 4:Yeah well, that's impossible though.
Speaker 3:Okay, so it's from a gala tree.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, would that resulting fruit, being the apple, taste the same if the next year it was pollinated from a crab apple tree?
Speaker 4:Or does that tree?
Speaker 3:always come up with the taste of a honey crisp.
Speaker 4:No, it would never come up. Oh, okay, I get you. Yeah, I get you, yeah. So the fact of the matter is, the apple that is born on a tree is not the result of the pollination.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 4:That is mother plant tissue. Okay, so it's actually flower tissue, okay.