Jerry Ouellette, former Ontario Minister of Natural Resources, who shares his fascinating journey of stumbling upon the medicinal mushroom chaga and how it has enriched his outdoor experiences. Get ready to laugh along with Jerry’s charming tales about his chocolate lab, Ensign Gunner, and the quirky, sometimes challenging, world of mushroom harvesting. This episode is brimming with stories that highlight the unpredictability and joy of life in the great outdoors.
But the adventure doesn’t stop there! Dive into the rigorous and rewarding path of becoming a chiropractor for both humans and animals in Ontario, Canada. From earning a bachelor's degree to practicing on humans for a decade before transitioning to animal chiropractic, we break down every step of this specialized career journey. We also explore the global expansion of animal chiropractic courses and the strict regulatory requirements that ensure practitioners deliver the highest standards of care. Whether you’re an angling enthusiast or curious about chiropractic care, this episode promises a wealth of valuable insights and plenty of laughs. Tune in for a captivating conversation that will leave you inspired and eager to explore the natural world.
Jerry Ouellette, former Ontario Minister of Natural Resources, who shares his fascinating journey of stumbling upon the medicinal mushroom chaga and how it has enriched his outdoor experiences. Get ready to laugh along with Jerry’s charming tales about his chocolate lab, Ensign Gunner, and the quirky, sometimes challenging, world of mushroom harvesting. This episode is brimming with stories that highlight the unpredictability and joy of life in the great outdoors.
But the adventure doesn’t stop there! Dive into the rigorous and rewarding path of becoming a chiropractor for both humans and animals in Ontario, Canada. From earning a bachelor's degree to practicing on humans for a decade before transitioning to animal chiropractic, we break down every step of this specialized career journey. We also explore the global expansion of animal chiropractic courses and the strict regulatory requirements that ensure practitioners deliver the highest standards of care. Whether you’re an angling enthusiast or curious about chiropractic care, this episode promises a wealth of valuable insights and plenty of laughs. Tune in for a captivating conversation that will leave you inspired and eager to explore the natural world.
Back in 2016,. Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2:Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.
Speaker 1:Thus the Ugly Pike podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.
Speaker 2:Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.
Speaker 1:The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing. It's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together.
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Speaker 3:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy. Lives under the canopy Okay, great to have everybody back. And to all our friends in Ghana, we just want to thank you so much for keeping us number one, the number one podcast in our category in Ghana, and we very much appreciate that. And if anybody in Ghana has any questions or would like to hear any answers, don't be afraid to reach out to us and send us an email, ask some questions. We'll see if we can get them on. It may take a couple of shows to try and figure out who to answer the questions and how it all works out, but we appreciate that, along with all our Canadians that listen to us on a regular basis. Thanks very much. And then we got an email this morning from a teacher in Omimi Now all I did was I just briefly saw it that asked us to come out and talk to the class as a result of the podcast. We are certainly going to try and accommodate. I haven't read the email yet, but once I get to it I'll have a look.
Speaker 3:And you know, it was a normal morning, a little bit drizzly, here this morning. It's early March, or early March, what am I saying? It's early June and we were marching along my usual dog out, with Ensign Gunner running my dog, and I did some harvesting on my living apothecary. This morning I harvested some reishi, which it's kind of surprising because for the past two years the reishi didn't even start coming up until this week, two years ago, which is the first week of June, and last year was the same the first week of June, and this year it was about three weeks early. Don't know why, but it was interesting to see. Not only that, but it was kind of funny that and the reishi that we harvested.
Speaker 3:For those that don't know, reishi it grows on hemlock trees and it's the second most medicinal mushroom in the entire world. It's very popular where it grows on hemlocks, as I mentioned. But somebody else had found my living apothecary and the trails that we use and harvested the first bunch off the hemlock and I got the second batch, which is okay, you know, and I have to tell you that I'm out with my dog, ensign Gunner. He's a chocolate lab, five years old, and it's the usual. You come home and if you go in you brush your teeth. I'm out, we're out seven something in the morning, earlier than that sometimes, and he comes in and he just gets between me and the sink and looks up at me and that means he wants his teeth brushed. Now, I don't know how many have dogs out there that want their teeth brushed, but I can tell when he wants it because he comes in and he sits and looks at me, you know. But and I have to tell a story before we get to our guest, because it was kind of unusual for me I was at a fundraiser with the Oshawa General Hospital and I was seated with some people from General Motors and they started to talk about the unusual things about our dogs and that time I had Strider, who was another chocolate lab and they were talking about.
Speaker 3:I couldn't believe one of the stories that they said that their dog ate everything. Their lab ate everything. As a matter of fact, the part of the aluminum foil that you tear off, that little metal wire thing along the aluminum foil, it ate the entire thing and passed it. You know the little teeth, the sharp teeth on it. I can't imagine that. But then they said they had a problem with their dog. And I was laughing because I haven't heard of this before and I was just like what are you talking about? And they're talking about pet chiropractic. They were talking about taking their dog into a chiropractor. And I said what? You're taking your dog into a chiropractor? Are you people serious? Oh, you're very serious.
Speaker 3:And the other people at the table because it was a table of 10, you know, it was a big fundraiser for the hospital and anyways, they went into the details and I never thought anything about it until such time as I was out walking Strider, and we have a huge Burmese mountain dog around the corner, ben. When Ben was still around and he was still a pup, ben weighed 234.4 pounds. That's a big Burmese. And they were playing and all of a sudden Ben jumped up on Strider's back and you could see this look in his face and it was just like oh. And he started the quick little steps and he knew, oh, something's not right here.
Speaker 3:So then I started to walk and you could tell there was a problem and so we got home and he couldn't walk up and down the stairs, he couldn't do anything and I knew you know something. This is like. I'm going to try the chiropractic. And after a bit of searching I found our guest today. And welcome to the show, dr Fenella Ely. Thanks for coming on and thanks for talking about pet chiropractic Thanks. And she was able to do her magic on Strider and in one visit he was back in and out of jump. I had to help him out of the truck to get into the clinic and it was just trying to get him in. But welcome to the show, fenella.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate coming on to help answer some questions and talk about animal chiropractic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's great and you know, strider, he had a great life. Eventually, unfortunately, he passed from cancer, which we found too late, but now we try to do all that we can to make sure that we keep our pets cancer-free with using the jagged mushroom that we use, and there's quite a bit of research with pets and turkey tail and a bunch of things. Now, vanilla, you are a pet chiropractor, correct?
Speaker 4:Yes, yes yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:And so how did you get into this field? Well, I became a people chiropractor first, and in Ontario, where I live, you have to be a people chiropractor or vet first and you take specialized courses. So I got into it because I had a two-year-old appendix horse I just bought with my sister and he got injured really badly and the vets told me I couldn't do anything about it, I'd never ride him. And so I searched the Internet and I found the only course in the world was down in the USA back in 2000, 2001. So I took the courses and I've never looked back, really.
Speaker 3:I took the courses and I've never looked back. Really, I took the courses and everything. So you said that you need to be a human chiropractor first. How long is that to take when you're dealing with human chiropractic?
Speaker 4:So to be a human chiropractor in Ontario in my region, in Canada as well you have to have um. I had to have a three or four year degree, so I have a bachelor of science from the University of Toronto and then you do four more years in the chiropractic college. There's chiropractic colleges all over the world, but I did my training in Toronto. It's a local chiropractic college, so that's what I did and then after that I practiced on people for about 10 years and then, when my horse got injured, I became an animal chiropractor as well. So I do both oh really People and animals.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, I know it was the only course in the world at the time. Now there are more courses, like there's animal chiropractic classes and courses throughout the States, there's one in Canada, there's one in england, germany there, so now they branched out. Even, uh, new zealand and australia have them as well you mentioned one in canada.
Speaker 4:Whereabouts is that uh, just uh west of toronto there's a new one opened up a few years ago, so so local chiropractors and vets vets are allowed to do it and as long as you're in good standing, vets are allowed to take the courses as well. So we both have regulation, within our province and within Canada as to how many hours maintaining your license. There's certain continuing education. There's things that you have to maintain as a licensed doctor. You have to maintain certain level of education to be able to continue to do it.
Speaker 3:Right, and when I reached out to you to come onto the podcast, you able to continue to do it Right, and when I reached out to you to come on to the podcast, you were actually in a regulatory meeting at that time, which was just more upgrades and regular education that you take for the position.
Speaker 4:Right, if you're licensed and most Western countries have licensing for chiropractic, veterinary and animal chiropractic. In Ontario, I have to do 40 hours every two years and I was in a webinar with my regulatory body over record keeping and standards of practice and those kind of things we have to do.
Speaker 3:So the regulatory body is that for animal chiropractic or is that for people chiropractic?
Speaker 4:It's for people. So the College of Chiropractors of Ontario I belong to that and that allows you to have your liability insurance, allows you to have your licensing and standards and regulations. And within that there's regulations as to human chiropractic scope of practice, like what you can and cannot do, because we're drug-less practitioners we don't give medicine or injections or anything. And then inside that also is the regulatory rules for animal chiropractic, so you have to be a licensed chiropractor or vet in order to do it. Yes, in.
Speaker 3:Ontario.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And is it different?
Speaker 4:in other jurisdictions throughout North America it can be. I originally had my American license, which I don't practice down there so I don't maintain it. But different every state is slightly different. Some are very positive, like Ontario is very positive. I have vets send to me, I send to vets. It's very positive here in Ontario. Some other areas it's not as prevalent or there's not as much licensing. You have to actually call each of the individual provinces. They regulate human and animal chiropractic slightly different throughout each province and state.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:As to like hours of courses you need to take or maintaining educational upgrades throughout your license. So every place is slightly different.
Speaker 3:So what type of animals do you practice on?
Speaker 4:I always joke it's anything that doesn't swim or that has fur. I do everything with fur. So, two or four legged, I've had a lot of different animals. My main core practice is dogs, cats and horses, but I've treated donkeys, llamas, alpacas, bunnies, ferrets, a rat once. I've treated anything really, because anything with a spine and a nervous system that we can get access to we can treat. There are animal chiropractors in the state. I know one. He works at a zoo. He does tigers and all kinds of animals down in the USA. So anything that presents I will work to help it, help it improve, whatever the problem is when they come in.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. And you mentioned the zoos. What about zoos up in Canada? Do you know if they have chiropractors who work with the animals in zoos here in Canada, the Toronto Zoo or the Calgary Zoo? Any of those ones?
Speaker 4:I haven't reached out too much. They do have my name and number because I do know some people that work at the zoo in Toronto. So they do have my name and number, because I do know some people that work at the vet sorry, at the zoo in Toronto. So they do have my name and number. I'm aware I do know some of the vets there. So I do find and it's a bit of a broad statement but I do find the wilder you are as an animal, the less problems you have. So you know, tigers might not have the same problems that a domestic dog or domestic cat would have just because of living environment, the same problems that a domestic dog or domestic cat would have just because of living environment. Um, that they can get injured, yes, but uh, I've not been called to the zoo yet. I'd love to, I'd love to go and, you know, treat a tiger or something if you ever get a call back from the toronto zoo.
Speaker 3:I have tried about 20 times to reach out to them, to to do a podcast with them, and do you think they'd call me back? Well, no, I don't know why. I've tried just about everything. Can't even get so much as an acknowledgement from them, and sometimes was they having a new direct executive director coming on, I believe.
Speaker 4:So hopefully there'll be some changes there you and me too, because I do see, if I go to the zoo with my children, I've gone down there and I say, oh, that animal's a little gimpy, I might be able to help them, but I don't know the history why. So, yeah, I'm the same as you, I've sent them my information and the vets I know that work. There are the ones that I know. So hopefully in the future. You know it's all about education. A lot of people actually don't know what this is available and that what I do and my colleagues. So it's amazing that you've done this podcast because so many people come in going. I didn't even know you did this and my last dog could have benefited from it. So I said, well, you're here now, so we're going to move forwards with helping your new dog. So a lot of people still don't know. Even though there's schools now all over the world and a lot of people do it, it's still not well known to the general public.
Speaker 3:Well, in my own experience with my previous Chocolate Lab strider, I couldn't believe what these people were telling me. And so during the next campaign, which was that fall, after I'd met these people from General Motors at the hospital fundraiser that were telling me about this, I started noticing people's dogs and I said have you ever heard of it? Oh yeah, I take my dog all the time you do. Really, I was shocked. I take my dog all the time you do. Really, I was shocked. Yeah, it was kind of interesting. But how do you tell that your pet, your dog, your cat, your horse needs chiropractic attention?
Speaker 4:Yeah, Good question. I get that question daily. I get that question if I'm out somewhere and somebody talks to me. I tell people that they have the same things that go wrong with their bodies as we do. The difference is they're four-legged, not two. So the biomechanics are slightly different and animals also don't always tell you when they're sore. When a human comes in and goes, oh my back's sore, I picked up the groceries, I had trouble mowing the lawn, they can verbalize that. So you know people can say I'm a little sore and come in.
Speaker 4:So, dogs, we have to do a little bit of guesswork. I rely a lot on the owners to tell me and I say you know, look for your animals. Maybe your dog doesn't jump on the couch as much or doesn't want to go up the stairs or doesn't want to jump in and out of the car, or you touch a certain spot and they kind of move away from you. The obvious things like limping, holding a leg up, squealing, being, you know, can't move, those are obvious to owners, but a lot of the time it's a very subtle thing that starts Like they've been playing really hard with a next door neighbor's dog and they roll and they kind of twist their back and they get up and keep playing, because that's what dogs do, right, they're very energetic, they want to keep going. And then that builds up over time and all of a sudden it's like why is my dog at five or six, you know, very stiff? So I tell them to look for things where change, change of environmental, um, activities like that. They don't want to jump up and down the couch or an out of car or up and downstairs or those kind of things. They don't want to play with their, the neighbor's dog anymore, or they they step back and don't look. So they're the more subtle things then you can get into.
Speaker 4:The science side of it is. We always say that everything has a spine, so things can get stiff and tight. So all animals should be checked at some point in their life. We say like horses, dogs, cats or whatever. So once somebody's come to me already and knows what I do, they tend to bring their next dog in sooner. Or they come in and I do like a puppy check. I said, bring your puppy and let me just check. It's okay, cause most of the time they're fine, but again they may be played hard with a litter mate or, you know post-surgical, like, oh, do I, should I come in? I said yes, you know they've had a knee replacement, uh, surgery for, like the cruciate ligaments or something they shift their weight onto the other hip so they get stiff.
Speaker 4:So we look at the subtle things. So I try and educate patients to come in um with their dogs. What to look for? Those kind of simple things like the tail doesn't go up anymore, the tail doesn't wag properly, or, you know, they start licking their paws because they're sore. So simple things like change of behavior, change of attitude is one of the biggest things that we look for.
Speaker 4:Now, outside of the obvious, I treat a lot of sport, the agility, fly ball, dock diving dogs. Those people do know that the dogs get injured. They see them fall off equipment. So it's just like you, if you're playing soccer and fall, you know you can get sore. So you have the obvious injuries and then you have the subtle ones, the life injuries slowly, from just jumping up and down on the tile floor, falling on the stairs. So those are the ones we try and educate people on how to kind of look for it. If you're not sure you know um, you can call your local association. You can call google, find somebody in your area that's licensed um and then ask them for a check. You don't have to come in all the time. I have people uh um, want their animals checked once or twice a year just to make sure they don't have any subtle injuries that we're missing.
Speaker 3:So you mentioned calling people in your area. Is there a way that people can like do they do most other chiropractors who only do work on people? Would they know of individuals such as yourself that work in chiropractic, or is there a listing, somewhere that people can look up to find out? Where can I get this, this treatment, from my pet in my area?
Speaker 4:Both. A lot of the local people in my area chiropractors know who I am through word of mouth or classmates or through the association that regulates us. Others you can google like animal chiropractor in your region, like I'm in Durham or you know Toronto, and people will pop up and they'll have their names. This great thing with internet today like when I got my courses and finished my licensing 20 years ago, they didn't have that. So now it's great because you can find somebody.
Speaker 4:One of my patients moved out to Nova Scotia and we found somebody on the internet and she called and he's licensed and she's taking her animal to the person in Nova Scotia. So really the internet's your friend on this one. There are regulatory groups that you pay as a chiropractor if you want to be listed in there. The one that comes to my mind is AVCA, american Veterinary Chiropractic Association. They're big on listing people in their region in USA and Canada, and then there's ones in Europe. So really, basically, google, google and find somebody, or ask your own chiropractor if they know somebody they refer to in your area.
Speaker 3:Yes, Well, I don't know if you got a call or not, but last week I referred somebody to you which actually inspired the call, to see if you're interested in the podcast. I think the dog's name was Rufus, Anyways.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure if she got in touch. I think that was the dog's name, because it was the first time I'd ever met the dog and she was you know. She came to me. She says you look like a person who knows who's concerned about dogs. Can I talk to you about my dog? And I said, well, sure. And so then I suggested that to reach out to you and see if there was some things that could be dealt with. Now is it just spines that you deal with as well, or is it hips and knees or anything else? Because I know some chiropractors actually will do some work with, uh, knees or hips and things like that, but I I don't know the profession well enough to be able to tell you. Is it just the way the spine goes in or how? Is it just the spine that you work with?
Speaker 4:traditionally it's the spine. That's what we're known for, like neck pain, you know, back pain. Uh, most chiropractors are fully trained from head to toe. I call it like you, you can do everything. I, as a human chiropractor, I just wrist the ocarpal tunnel, you adjust knees, hips, feet, everything. So I translated that through my courses and I do full body on animals as well, so I do. You know a dog might come in and you know they're. They're like, say, fly ball, where they run down, they grab a ball in a box and come back. Their paws get very stiff from hitting the box so their paws get very tight and you can adjust or loosen up their toes. And other dogs it's more the low back and the tail region. So, yes, head to toe, the whole body is what I focus on in terms of getting the whole body working better.
Speaker 3:Now I know that there were some individuals. I think his name was, oh, just quickly, kevin. Down at Gagnon Sports had a lab as well. That he says you know. And it was funny because when we were buying a new mattress and the people at the bed store said, you know, the number one reason that people buy a bigger bed is to make room for their pet that sleeps on the bed with them.
Speaker 3:Anyways, yes, yeah, that is so true, he was down at Gagnon Sports and he was saying you know, he says the dog's not that great, I don't know. He used to jump on the bed and we miss him sleeping on the bed and so I'm not sure what the problem is. And I had him try well, how old's the dog? And it sounded like the dog had arthritis at that time. And I'm not a doctor. I can't give medical advice, as we stress over and over again.
Speaker 3:But I suggested to him trying the chaga, which is the mushroom that we process and use for a lot of different purposes, and so I got him some and tried it and he said it works fantastic. He said he couldn't believe the difference. He said within a week of just giving him the chaga the dog was back jumping up on the bed and then we stopped giving it to him and as soon as he stopped jumping on the bed we'd give him some more and he'd be back at it. So I think that inflammation in the systems where Chaga, one of the key components of the mushroom Chaga in Autonomous Obliquus, it eliminates a lot of inflammation that causes a lot of problems. Let the body heal itself as well. So when you're dealing with pets and animals, they develop arthritis as well, and is this something that your profession is able to help with, with dogs with arthritis?
Speaker 4:Absolutely, as I'd say. Approximately 50% of my animal practice is arthritic-based Older dogs, midlife to end of life. We keep them comfortable, keep them moving. I always tell my clients arthritis is not a death sentence. It's not like oh my gosh, you have to sit around, you need to move, you need to get the inflammation down. You need the joints to open up. You need the nervous system to be balanced so it can move more effectively. Your body wants to be in neutral. It system to be balanced so it can move more effectively. Your body wants to be in neutral. It moves best if it's in neutral when it's out of balance because one hip's sore and you shift your weight.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we want to get that inflammation down through chiropractic and supplementation for people and animals and there's huge, huge research being done on this. It was just fantastic. But definitely if you can get the inflammation down through an adjustment, loosening up the joint, getting everything to move better, so not rubbing, it's not sticking, it's not the nerve isn't kind of dulled down, you get everything back working and then you also have, like, your supplement that takes down inflammation. They work well together. Clients work with their vets on that because we again we're drugless. But it's amazing what's available now, and a lot of vets are interested in a lot of anti-inflammatory work with animals and more supplementation so at least the ones that I know. So it's fantastic to see that owners have options now, which is wonderful. But we see the dogs come in and they can't move and they're stiff just like a person, and we do an adjustment, align everything, get the nervous system back balanced and they start to move better.
Speaker 4:Um, so I love things in together. I like, uh, um, everybody work together. I'm a piece of the puzzle, you know you're a piece of the puzzle. Everyone's got a place. Uh, there's so many more services available now for animals and people, so it's wonderful to see animal like. I love to hear those stories, you know, I, to me, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't have to, um, they don't have to be in my office. I'm very happy if a dog starts walking better, moving better. I'm so excited for the owner because this is their, their best friend, this is their, their part of the family, and to see your, your, your best friend and your, your, your pets, not moving well and suffering is it's hard. It's hard for people.
Speaker 3:Yes, it. They certainly become a part of the family and I know that's the same thing that this thing her name was Cheryl, was Rufus was talking about. You know, she was the first dog that I've owned since I'm being an adult. And she says you know, I can't believe how attached I am and I said, well, they become a part of your family and they, when they go I mean they don't have the same lifespan as we do, but certainly, with our expectations as adults, we anticipate them to live as long as we do and provide the greatest things that we can for them and make it as comfortable as possible, and when they go they take a piece with you.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 4:They do. Yeah, my dog is like wow, I mean, she's just like. I want to go home and see my dog. You know, I want to keep her comfortable and when she slid into the kitchen cabinet my son said, hey, she's limping. I have the tools to help that right away. So it's really nice. But you know, I just can't stand it if she's in pain or she has difficulty moving or she's not comfortable. So yeah, they're a big part of my pets are a big part of my family.
Speaker 7:Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show.
Speaker 6:But now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm.
Speaker 7:Now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 6:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 1:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 7:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, All the other guys would go golfing. Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists, now that we're reforesting and letting things freeze.
Speaker 1:It's the perfect transmission environment for life.
Speaker 2:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 6:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are Outdoor.
Speaker 7:Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
Speaker 3:Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health and Wellness. Okay, we're here with Kim from Bob Cajun and Kim, you had a great experience with the Chaga cream and your grandson. Can you tell us about that a bit?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so my grandson actually struggles with psoriasis. He's only 16 years old, so of course the self-esteem right. He doesn't want his face all covered in scales and stuff like that. And I picked him up on a weekend to come and visit with me and I had overheard you talking to somebody about psoriasis. So, it kind of piqued my interest and I thought I would ask you about that. And when you explained it to me I took a container home for him.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:And in one day he was over the moon, happy that his face looked clear and he was and he's going to be religiously doing it because, he's so self-conscious about it.
Speaker 3:So he tried other things the medical system and things like that and they just didn't have any success.
Speaker 5:Correct, he had a prescription of cream and it would sort of dry it up a little bit. But that was the problem. It just dries it up and then it's flaky on his face and he doesn't really like that and it leaves a lot of little red blotchy stuff right. So after he rubbed that stuff on the chaga was his face didn't look so angry, you know, because it's a red angry sort of look on his face and it didn't look so angry, it looked soft and and clear.
Speaker 5:So he was over the moon happy, and so I took him home, and then he messaged me after a couple of days to tell me that he's so, so happy that his skin looks clear.
Speaker 3:Great. Thanks very much, Kim. From Bob Cajun, You're welcome, okay.
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Speaker 3:When you first started out in this, I recall the conversations that we had because you were moving. Actually, when I called you about Strider, which would be oh, that might have been maybe close to 15, 20 years ago, you were actually working on a horse on a horse farm when I called you on your cell phone and then we had some discussions and I think you had a bit of opposition from the vets from moving in and working on pets at that time. But that's all been straightened out and there's been no problems now and the vets are in agreement, and I'm from what you said the vets can now actually take the courses and provide pet chiropractic as well.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, yes, it's, it's. I'm glad to see the professions working together for the benefit of the clients, uh, which is nice. We established animal chiropractic rules and regulations within our, our standards, our laws, over 20 years ago and you know they get challenged occasionally because it's like who rules the care of an animal? But because there's so much more available services now, there's a lot more dialogue as to you know, professionals who can help an animal. So I always say to people make sure whoever you go to has training, has experience and definitely working together is wonderful. I love it when it's interprofessional relationships. So it's definitely improved quite a lot in the skin being professional and being educational for the clients. And the clients ultimately are the ones who will choose where they want to take their pet.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and I know that I believe, and I don't know the regulatory aspects about it, but I have heard about things like acupuncture being used on pets as well, and I don't know how well that that has been regulated in the same fashion that you're being regulated now, with a governing body to make sure that you're in compliance and regular upgrades and things like that. But are you hearing about other professions, like acupuncturists, now performing acupuncture on pets?
Speaker 4:I was licensed to do acupuncture and I chose to move towards more animals. So I don't do the acupuncture anymore and at the time that I was doing it with people, I wasn't allowed to do it on animals. It is within the scope of practice for a vet because it's the way the needles go in. So I haven't really pursued any ideas or options regarding doing that with animals. I've kind of stuck to the chiropractic. I believe there is strong regulations regarding that because they're needles. They're needles going into the animal. Again, you can call the Veterinary Association or the acupuncture regulatory bodies actually regulatory bodies now for all of these services so they can give you an idea in your area what the education levels are and who can do what, and I think that's important. So, but I'm not I'm not up to speed on the acupuncture in my area because I don't do it anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just wondered if you heard about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I do refer if somebody wants acupuncture. There are some that do it and there's a couple of vets that we send to and some vets. There's more vets being included into the alternative, or I like complimentary, as the word is complimentary services. There's several clinics around my area that do rehab, acupuncture, a lot of different services, even you know red laser. I do red laser, as other ones. People do that. So it's nice that we're seeing more services available for the animals so that it can benefit the animal and the owner. We're seeing a lot more of that and I send to a couple of vets that do acupuncture.
Speaker 3:And my understanding is that different jurisdictions, even in Canada being in other provinces, and that they all have different guidelines and regulatory bodies and some of them. Now Ontario has moved quite a bit farther ahead with regulation in these areas to make sure that there's compliance with all the needs out there. But I talked to some others that some of the other provinces, the smaller provinces, may not be as advanced as Ontario. But, that being said, your ability to practice just about anywhere in Canada, this is something that would be available.
Speaker 4:In Canada you have to have a Canadian license, so write the Canadian boards when you finish your chiropractic degree or the certificate when, when you leave a chiropractic college, you write board exams, so that's for Canada and then you write individual province. So I wrote Nova Scotian boards and I wrote Ontario boards, but I don't live in Nova Scotia so I don't keep that up to speed. So you have to, in Canada, be licensed Canadian and then licensed for each individual province. If they have licensing, a smaller one, sometimes it's a little bit less. Again, yeah, you have to do multiple layers of licensing for the full chiropractic, like the human chiropractic, it's heavily regulated. And then you have to then find out if those provinces um have any regulation regarding animals.
Speaker 4:The ontario, uh, was one of the I believe was one of the first provinces that brought in the animal work, because I I knew the doctor who did the work on that. So uh and other provinces have fallen, I'm sorry followed suit, which is nice. So it's all for safety of the animal, safety for the client, it's all for regulation to make sure that things are done in the most professional manner possible for the animal and the owner. But again, every province is the way it can be, say the states, you can have your American certificate, but then if you work in California, you have to write another set of exams to practice in California or Nevada or wherever you're from. Every state is different.
Speaker 3:Right Now you mentioned briefly. You mentioned red laser, which I don't know anything about. Maybe you can fill us in on what red laser is and what you use it for and how you use it.
Speaker 4:A cold red laser has been around for a very long time. A lot of sporting people use it. It's in the public domain, but a lot of chiropractors and vets are using it now post-surgical uh for inflammation. If there's injury, it it's, it's red light goes into the body and it and it helps to um, reduce inflammation at the cellular level. It helps uh regulate the pain response through the um, the pain response through the nervous system. It kind of regulates if it's overreacting to pain stimulus and it also improves blood flow into the region. So there's a few things that it does. It speeds up the mitochondrion, which is a powerhouse of the cell, in order to heal faster. So a lot of people are using it to reduce inflammation.
Speaker 4:Post-surgical, post-injury. For, like that quick kind of like you know they've had a knee surgery that had a back is injured you can do the cold red laser. It's pain-free, it doesn't have any issues with that. It's not the cold, not like the hot laser people think about. That is when you are cutting things, so so you're seeing a lot more people buy handheld units and use it for themselves as well. So I do do cold red laser on some cases, but some people can do it if they buy their own machine. So we don't get into advising people on that. We just use it if it's indicated for a case that is really um.
Speaker 3:The inflammation is just not going down from all other methods and so you would use this on pets as well, obviously, because you mentioned that. So, on dogs and cats and horses or whatever you're treating, and how long would a treatment be, and and how do you identify where it is that you need to put the red laser treatment?
Speaker 4:The red laser is my last thing. I go to a new chiropractic multiple visits. First because I want the body to naturally heal itself. It's just. If it doesn't respond to what I'm doing, then we might add it in. And often it's used for knee injuries, knee sprains, hip sprains. I don't use it for the whole body, that's just my practice. That's just the way that I do it. Everyone hips, brains. I don't use it for the whole body, that's just my practice. That's just the way that I do it. Everyone's a little bit different and not all chiropractors have it, but a lot of chiropractors do use other modalities. We call it like ultrasounds, lasers, heat packs, things that help the body speed up its healing. So I don't use it on every case. I don't use it on, I only use it occasionally if they're not responding to everything I want and under veterinary care or everything that's going down that road, if they're kind of stagnated and the body's just not getting where it needs to go. Sometimes we add that in.
Speaker 3:Now I know what Strider is.
Speaker 4:It's only a couple of minutes, sorry, sorry, I heard about that. Sorry, there's a delay. It only takes a couple of minutes. It's not a long treatment, right? You? It's not a long treatment, right? You asked me about that.
Speaker 3:I know, when I brought Strider in and you did your adjustment, how many treatments does he normally take? Because on that one it was basically one visit and he was jumping in and out of the truck rather than me on the way in to take him in, have to help him out of the vehicle and when he came out of your office he was jumping back in and back into it and seemed perfectly fine. How many visits on average does it take to fix something with an animal?
Speaker 4:I don't know the general answer is four to six. I find most clients, animals, most animals, will respond fairly quickly. Uh, especially if it's not a complicated case, it's not post-surgical. Um, you know there's dogs that have three legs so they'll never be a hundred percent. You know they've had injury, car accidents, a limer mood. So those more complicated cases we go, I say, visit by visit. We don't know.
Speaker 4:But the average client that comes in here on a first time visit who hasn't seen me, I say like one to four. If they're better in two, they're better in two if they, if they get to four visits and I do it about a week apart. So it gives a chance for the animal to adapt to the changes. You know, maybe the owner can do things like you know, massage their hips. They can change the way they, they, they live in environment, like they might put down mats to stop them sliding or restrict stairs. So it gives them a week.
Speaker 4:You have the first visits and then I give them a week to kind of heal and adapt the changes to help them, and then we reassess. They come back in. So sometimes it's only one or two visits. They just needed a little bit of a push towards normalcy, get the nervous system and the muscles and joints all balanced. Other dogs basically like a 10-year-old Bernese mountain dog like that one you said is over 200 pounds and he's sore back. He might need it once or twice a month for a very long time because of his weight and his age and maybe arthritic changes. So every case is different, but I always start off with anywhere from one to four and then we reassess and say hey is this working for you.
Speaker 4:If it's not working and the owner doesn't think we're getting anywhere, then I refer back to the vet or we say let's try something else because obviously it's not getting them where they want to go.
Speaker 4:It will help them but it's not creating the the, the results that we want from the animal. Then we start saying, okay, let's stop this and add something else to it or change something. So I and again horses are different I go to a horse barn. I have to actually physically drive to a horse barn so I often with that will say I will come back in. You know, three or four weeks I can't be there every other day I can't be because of scheduling and barns and you know, driving around and horses are very different than dogs. So the smaller animals I say come into my office once a week for one to four visits and we reassess. Horses can be a bit different because they're in barns and running around in fields all day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know in the vet profession that they have large animal vets as well, what they call, and from what I hear, there's fewer and fewer of those because they have to when they're dealing with their horses particularly horses, not people, I talk to that. It's difficult to get a vet out to do that work, but this is something that's part of your practice and you do on a regular basis is go out to these locations and whether it's you mentioned alpacas and llamas and horses and things like that where you would go to these locations so they don't have to trailer them into you to be able to get the work done correct.
Speaker 4:Correct. It's much easier and better and convenient for me to go to the barn, wherever. That is where I'm going, so I see them in their environment, I can see their saddles and see them move and walk around and stuff like that. Whereas if you're trailered to a location which there have been in the past some doctors that have their own property you're dealing with trailering and that's fine if it's an average case. I like to go into the barn where I can see everything that's going on, see where they're living, see what the terrain is like, see their equipment, see the barn, see everything, everything, and then I can assess and then we can sit there and come up with a plan for that horse and rider are there certain exercises in the arena, certain equipment they're using, just a kind of a long.
Speaker 3:it's a long process and I really love that I might be in the barn hour hour and a half for the client going through everything yeah, I know, when, um, I first made the decision to to come in you with Strider, I had gone to our vet first who put him on these medication where, quite frankly, the dog was stoned. The dog was on this medication and it was bouncing around and it was just like holy mackerel, this dog, what's going on with Strider, holy mackerel, what's going on with Strider? And he'd jump out and he'd fall out, coming out the front door and fall in one step and he'd be bouncing up and I said this is not good, I don't want him on this stuff. So that's when I made the decision, and some of the things afterwards that we noticed because I know I brought him in for a couple of others was that when he was walking on a tile floor he seemed to slip quite a bit.
Speaker 3:So actually we put carpets down I mean, these are the things we do for our pets because they're family members so we started putting runner carpets down just for the dog to make sure he didn't slip on the floor, which was one of the ways that I could tell that he was very cautious and that would be time to come in for another visit. And we did have them in for a few that assisted with that and always seemed to help out, which was great, and we're very appreciative of you giving us our loved one back to be able to enjoy him the way we always knew we could. And those are just some of the things I guess. Are there other signs that people can identify that my dog needs to try this, or my cat or my horse and things like that? How would you tell the horse or my cat or my horse and things like that?
Speaker 4:How would you tell the horse? Yeah, I rely on the rider 100%. They'll call and say, oh, my horse is refusing a jump, or I get on his back and he pins his ears. So we look a lot of body language when we look at animals, even dogs. I mean I've had dogs where they look at me and they go and they kind of like pin their ears and it's like, okay, why are they pinning their ears? Because like, pin their ears and it's like, okay, why are they pinning their ears? Because they they're sore, they're upset, they're they're telling you something. So we rely so much on body language of the animal, reading the animal.
Speaker 4:And then the owners are intuitive. I love that owners are are so intuitive. They're very good at saying there's something wrong with you know fluffy, or you know um, you know stride or whatever you know. You know you look at them and say something is wrong. You might not be able to identify it because it wasn't an obvious. We've had surgery. Or dogs get thrown around in cars. I get them come in. They've been in a car accident with their owners and they've hit the dashboard or they've hit something. Well, my dog must be injured. So those are obvious. But it's nice that owners because they're so intuitive. But it's nice that owners because they're so intuitive. Owners are very intuitive and so it's amazing how much an owner can actually tell you and not realize that they know what's going on with the dog. They really do. And since we do puppy checks because puppies you know learning to walk and falling down stairs and rolling off couches all the way to you know the one that's very old, they know Owners really do. We tell them to trust themselves. They know something's wrong. So that's the side that we rely on a lot. I rely on a lot.
Speaker 4:I ask a lot of questions in the initial visits. So how are they doing their business? Are they willing to go onto the grass or are they only on certain areas? Are they able to lift their leg? You know the males, you know some of them always started squatting the past six months. Well, he can't turn his back, he can't lift it, can't shift his weight and lift his leg. You know, or you know, these are things that, uh, that people realize they start looking at their animal something's different and and that's wonderful when they can communicate that to to me and tell me and then can kind of it's like fact-finding mission, it's like a hunt. When people come in and they start talking and I'm listening and I'm going through everything and all of a sudden, boom, okay, it's a low back, it's a neck.
Speaker 4:The dog won't lift his head up for treats anymore. Okay, won't eat off the ground anymore, can't eat out of a bowl. They raise the bowls up. I'm like why did you raise the bowl up? The dog was fine two weeks ago. Why can't you put his head down? So very simple stuff. We start asking the right questions, people start to figure it out and they go yes, that happened, you know, three weeks ago my dog stopped eating off the ground. Won't eat treats off the ground. So we know something's wrong. And that's great. I love it's great when we all work together and figure it out. It's so much fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think those are some great ones when not lifting their leg, and I know a lot of other ones, like you said, about not feeding off the ground. So a lot of people buy these raised bowls to help them, but they need to realize that there's other problems that it's causing in the first place, but most people don't realize. This is one of the ways that you can fix it is by coming to see individuals such as yourself.
Speaker 4:Get them checked, just get them checked, just get them checked. We say just you know, if we find nothing wrong, then maybe arthritis has got to a point you need to raise a bullet. Most of the time they don't need to if we can sort something out.
Speaker 3:Now you mentioned pinned ears. Can you just kind of give a description of what people would look for if their dogs are pinning their ears or their horses are pinning their ears?
Speaker 4:it's a change of behavior we look for, affect any change in behavior. And if you're like you know, the dog is sitting there on the couch and you walk up to it and you go to put your hand on it, say it's low back, it just kind of braces or pins its ears, but then it wags its tail because it's you, it loves you, but it kind of has this half second, kind of something's wrong, don't't touch me. Okay, it's you, I'll let you touch me. So dogs and horses and cats but cats are more unpredictable, they're a little bit funky, but horses will do it.
Speaker 4:I have a horse. I was sitting on my horse a few weeks ago and I asked him to trot and he pinned his ears and I went okay, why did he do that, you know? And his back was sore. I jumped off and I checked him out because because I was like this isn't like him.
Speaker 4:So change of behavior pinning the ears is a very big sign of they're not happy with something. They just pin them back a little bit and then they might maybe just a flick, but it is something that it cues, that we see like the tail goes down, they freeze, or um, you know the, the um. You go to touch them, they just kind of pull back a half second a hair and those are. Those are indications like maybe they're sore somewhere, maybe they're defensive because they are sore, maybe they don't feel comfortable, they don't feel strong because their backs are are not quite working properly.
Speaker 4:So I educate a lot of owners to look for the subtle things and that's when often they can predict when to come in. Because if I haven't seen them in six months because we don't know, know the dog's not telling me oh yeah, my toes are tingling or my back is sore. We have to guess a lot of the time as to frequency of care. So if you have a dog that maybe comes in once a month and you go to six months, the owners will come and say you know he started pinning his ears, started putting his tail down, you know he stopped wanting to jump in the car. Very subtle things and it's not age related, it is definitely something is off within their body, it's not working properly. So I love training people on that because then they start to pay attention.
Speaker 3:Owners know, owners know I trust them yeah, I used to tell my sons, josh and garrett, that the dogs actually talk to us in different ways, not in verbal communication, and they said what do you mean? I said, well, what's strider telling us right now? Oh, he wants to go outside. Exactly, he's talking to us in his fashion and we, as people and pet owners, the more that we see and understand our pets, the things to watch for, like a bunch of things that you have just mentioned to watch the tail and the you know whether they're feeding their treats off the ground and all those other things those are things that are indications that we're being told by our pets that, hey, there's something wrong, we need to fix it, and you're one of the people to come and see, to try and help out and do what we can for our loved ones.
Speaker 4:Exactly, and I love that I can do this. I'm so privileged. I just love. I love my job, I love my career. I've been doing this 31 years 21 on animals and 31 on people. I can't, I can't look back.
Speaker 4:I got accepted into a different professional school and I chose this. I chose a chiropractic. I wanted to go this route. I I've seen it work on so many people and cases and animals.
Speaker 4:I just love what I do and that's I get excited. I actually, if you're doing this in this many years, I still get really excited when somebody comes in and says my dog isn't limping anymore, or my horse is not bucking anymore or, like my, my cat is moving better. I just, I just love the responses. And there are cases that you don't quite get to there and we manage another way. And there are cases dogs get cancers as well and and the things there's not.
Speaker 4:You know, can't not every animal has absolutely perfect positive results, but most have some results in some level. And that's what I love about what I do, because I might not you know, a 10 year old dog that's been limping from arthritic knee. We might not get them back to puppyhood, as we say, we'll get them back to a one-year-old state, but if we can make them 50%, 60% better and they can jump on that couch or jump in the car so that you don't have to hurt your back lifting the dog. These are all things that affects the owner and the animal and it's such a nice bond to see these animals and the owners kind of like helping each other and there's so much available. There's stairs to get in and out of cars if they can't end up jumping themselves, and the same with beds and you know I just I don't know. I love what I do and every day I'm like, wow, I really enjoy it when people find my door and we can help them.
Speaker 3:That's great. Now, Dr Ely, just a couple. As compared to people, what kind of cost? Would it be the same? Is it about the same cost as a person going to see a chiropractor to get your pet looked at? Or it's obviously going to vary if you're bringing in, as you mentioned, a rat that you once did compared to a dog or a horse or a cat. But roughly speaking, just to give a perspective, because a lot of people may know well, this is how much it costs to go to a chiropractor for people. But is it equivalent or close, or how does that relate?
Speaker 4:uh, it's slightly variable. I find regionally, like certain areas, ottawa in general and toronto is slightly more for people in animal chiropractic. It's regionally based. But saying that my animal chiropractic is more expensive, I spend more time with the animal. It also has HST on it, so the people might come in and like a rider will come see me or my associates and they will be not HST, so they might be, say, $50 or whatever the cost is, depending on what they're having done. The animal has HST on it for the regulations in Canada and it's in the HST rules.
Speaker 4:So I charge HST and give it to the government. So they're higher fees in general because of the taxation, because vets are taxed as well. So we're in that same category. So it's a little bit more. I mean for me to drive to a barn and spend an hour with a client is definitely a lot more money because I have to get there. If I'm going to a barn that's really far away, I often charge more money because it's my gas and time to get there. But I tend not to do a lot of that if somebody's going there. I just like what I do. It's variable. I know some people west of me that charge maybe a lot more money, but they might add to it different services. So yeah, it's more. Horses are double to triple what the human rate is and dogs I just dogs are maybe 10 to 15% more than the human chiropractic side because they're taxed. I try and keep it equivalent to the human, the dog and the human fee, but I have to tax it, so I have to apply the HST.
Speaker 3:Just to give people understanding, when we took Strider in, we took him to the vet first that gave him the medication that basically had him stoned. I said this is not good for the dog, I don't want to see him like this. And then when we came, I have to tell the people out there that the cost to go to the vet, as compared to go to the pet chiropractor yourself, was about a third or a quarter of the cost to go to the vet. And I'm not advocating for people not to go to their vets. I'm just saying, if you're looking to try and figure out, oh my God, it cost me this much to go to the vet. It's going to cost me way more to go to a pet chiropractor. I didn't. In my experience with my dog, I didn't see that at all. It was substantially reduced, it was medication free and we had results very quickly and I was very, very happy with the service that we had and you know from that. Thank you for what you're able to do for Strider in bringing him back to a normal state so we could enjoy him in the years that he had left, which was very nice in a very
Speaker 3:cost-effective way.
Speaker 4:And I do remember him. I remember Strider being out here on the pavement walking around. I do remember him when it comes to my practice and I find that I hope I have a good high standard for the professional side of our practices. I find that, yes, we are cheaper. We are not primary caregivers.
Speaker 4:A vet in Ontario is primary caregiver, absolutely. You know they get hit by a car, they have infection or whatever's going on. So I do make sure that a vet, if they can be in the loop. That's why I reach out and have good communication with the vets in my area that refer back and forth and have good communication with the vets in my area that refer back and forth. And yes, if a dog is a case that is basically a stiff back, sore back, then because we're drugless practitioners, I don't tell the client to take medication or not take medication, but I do my job. And if that results in them going back to their vet or them talking to their vet regarding changing the pain management, then that's a positive to to reduce um the medication if the dog doesn't need to be on it. So we have that place in that management.
Speaker 4:But the vets are primary caregivers, uh, by law which they do, the surgery, they do all the other stuff. So they are are big in that. But I do like my place in that because if if I can get that animal moving better, feeling better and needs less medication, then they talk to their vet and say, hey, this is working. Can we change this? And a lot of times the vets are very happy to reduce or change the plan of management, which I like. That's why I'm really big on communicating and clients understanding why things are given, you know, and why sometimes there's a need for medication, sometimes there isn't.
Speaker 4:But I do love that. A lot of clients say, wow, you know, and, and why sometimes there's a need for medication, sometimes there isn't. But I do love that. A lot of clients say, wow, you know, my dog's moving better, they don't need as much whatever they're on. You know, um, and uh, definitely, the arthritis is a big one, so we can keep the dog moving. Uh, it does help, um, keeping the body healthier and their mind and again, behavior affect. So it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's lovely to see all these opportunities to help keep the animal healthier longer and happier well, we, dr finale.
Speaker 3:We really appreciate you taking the time to be on our podcast with us. How do people get in touch with you or where can they reach out, or where can they find out information, or how do they find out where they can get to this practice from yourself or others?
Speaker 4:for me, my website is on pause and people cairocom, so it's pause like p-a-w-s-a-n-d. People, p-e-o-p-l-e, cai, c-h-i-r-ocom. So we have a website that has in there the people practice and it has the animal and then we book some stuff's booked online. Some calls us, our office number is on there, all the information is there, our email and everything. So we go everything through our website.
Speaker 4:We have an office in downtown Whitby which is 117 Byron Street North downtown Whitby, which is 117 Byron Street North and that's where we do people, in the front of the practice and then towards the side back. I have a specialized animal loom so animals can come and go through the front and back door as well. So I have a dual practice, dual office set up in downtown Whitby. So it's nice to have that. And then for the animals, obviously, if somebody calls through our website or through our phone, then I organize with my cell number and I go to Barnes on different days, different times. So we have a lot of ways of contacting us. But the website is the main one and the office number is 905-430-9431.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you very much for taking the time to enlighten us on a lot of these pet chiropractic practices that a lot of people are not aware of. But I find it's just something. Another way that, as I did this morning, was out running my dog checking my living apothecary, and Ensign Gunner was out there having his great time and should he have any problems that we would be in touch with you. So it's another way that he can enjoy everything that we do out there under the canopy. Thanks for being with us.
Speaker 4:You're welcome and thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 7:How did a small-town sheet metal mechanic come to build one of Canada's most iconic fishing lodges? I'm your host, steve Nitzwicky, and you'll find out about that and a whole lot more on the Outdoor Journal Radio Network's newest podcast, diaries of a Lodge Owner. But this podcast will be more than that. Every week on Diaries of a Lodge Owner, I'm going to introduce you to a ton of great people, share their stories of our trials, tribulations and inspirations, learn and have plenty of laughs along the way. Meanwhile we're sitting there bobbing along trying to figure out how to catch a bass and we both decided one day we were going to be on television doing a fishing show.
Speaker 6:My hands get sore a little bit when I'm reeling in all those bass in the summertime, but that might be for more fishing than it was. Punching you so confidently, you said hey.
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