Get a dose of outdoor wisdom from Jerry Ouellette as he shares his passion for natural remedies on the Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, with a special spotlight on the fascinating world of chaga mushrooms. We'll also tickle your funny bone with a late-night skunk mishap involving a beloved chocolate lab, Ensign Gunner.
Ever dealt with the pungent aftermath of a skunk spray? We've got practical tips for you! From using coffee grounds as a deterrent to a hydrogen peroxide mixture for your pets, we cover it all. We're joined by Colin Kasson from the Invasive Species Centre in Ontario, who delves into the world of invasive species management, using the emerald ash borer as a prime example. Learn about the Centre's collaborative efforts to tackle these ecological challenges and discover valuable advice for both dog owners and environmental enthusiasts alike.
The episode also sheds light on the broader ecological implications of invasive species. From the historical introduction of earthworms to the devastating impact of zebra mussels, we unravel the complex web of ecosystems affected by these invaders. With engaging discussions on the management strategies for the emerald ash borer and the economic impact of zebra mussels, we underscore the importance of public vigilance and collaboration. Whether you're intrigued by the intricate balance of our natural world or just looking for some good laughs and helpful tips, this episode has something for everyone.
Get a dose of outdoor wisdom from Jerry Ouellette as he shares his passion for natural remedies on the Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, with a special spotlight on the fascinating world of chaga mushrooms. We'll also tickle your funny bone with a late-night skunk mishap involving a beloved chocolate lab, Ensign Gunner.
Ever dealt with the pungent aftermath of a skunk spray? We've got practical tips for you! From using coffee grounds as a deterrent to a hydrogen peroxide mixture for your pets, we cover it all. We're joined by Colin Kasson from the Invasive Species Centre in Ontario, who delves into the world of invasive species management, using the emerald ash borer as a prime example. Learn about the Centre's collaborative efforts to tackle these ecological challenges and discover valuable advice for both dog owners and environmental enthusiasts alike.
The episode also sheds light on the broader ecological implications of invasive species. From the historical introduction of earthworms to the devastating impact of zebra mussels, we unravel the complex web of ecosystems affected by these invaders. With engaging discussions on the management strategies for the emerald ash borer and the economic impact of zebra mussels, we underscore the importance of public vigilance and collaboration. Whether you're intrigued by the intricate balance of our natural world or just looking for some good laughs and helpful tips, this episode has something for everyone.
Back in 2016,. Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2:Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.
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Speaker 3:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal applications used by Indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. So join me today for another great episode, and hopefully we can inspire a few more people to live their lives under the canopy their lives under the canopy. Okay, now, just before we get to today's podcast, I have to say my usual thanks to those people in Ghana for keeping us number one and number two in Ghana for such a long time. I realize there must be something that you're enjoying about our podcast. Don't be afraid to reach out to us If you have any suggestions. I know, since we've been seeing that Ghana has had us as a top podcaster there, that we've been doing more and more research about it. Sounds like a great place. It'd probably get lots of promotional tourism aspects from people who listen to our podcast. But thanks again to the listeners in Ghana for their support and any questions or anything you have. We'd be more than happy to try and do what we can.
Speaker 3:Now, just before we get to today's guest, who is Colin Kasson, and before we get to Colin, I got to let you know last night was one of those nights where I was at I'm on the local board of governors for the local college, durham College. At a board meeting last night I get home but it ran late because it was the last meeting before the summer and then we go back in September and start meeting as a board again. Now get home and it was kind of late Normally they end up sometimes around nine, but it was about 10, 30, quarter to 11 by the time I got home and my dog, my chocolate lab Ensign Gunner's just going as usual, bouncing and all excited to see me come back through the door Because, quite frankly, he missed his run or his walk because I was at the board meeting, because I take him in the morning and I take him at night. So there, once he settles down, he gives the indication that he wants to go out in the backyard. So I opened the door and he bounds off. We got a bunch of rabbits there and he's always chasing rabbits. Well, all of a sudden he comes bounding back in full steam and he starts rubbing his face on the carpets and on the couches. And I turned to my wife and said oh my God, diane, he's been sprayed by a skunk. It wasn't a rabbit, it was a skunk. Get him in the tub. Now. The entire house the carpets, the couches, our clothes, the walls, the wallpaper into the tub he goes, the shower curtains, all smell like skunk.
Speaker 3:So last night I spent a heck of a lot of time trying to get rid of skunk smell on the house and, quite frankly, this morning as well. Now, we did try. What was that that we used was oh, I can't remember. It'll come to me and then during the podcast I'll jump in and say, oh, that's what we moved. Part of it was because I was so up late trying to. Well, we're washing towels, we're washing carpets, we're doing everything all night long to get rid of this skunk smell, because the poor dog got it straight in the eye, couldn't open his one eye, and right on his snout. But now, with the joy, not only do we have a joyful chocolate lab, but we got a house full of skunk and we've been dealing with that all day long. Anyways, just a little friendly topic skunk and we've been dealing with that all day long. Anyways, just a little friendly topic. But our guest today is Colin Kasson, and Colin is from the Invasive Species Centre in the province of Ontario.
Speaker 4:Welcome to the program, colin. Thanks for having me and sorry about the skunk. There may be nuisance at times. They're a native species, so we can't call them invasive. But my goodness, maybe that's a good argument for calling them a nuisance species in this example.
Speaker 3:Well, oh.
Speaker 3:So here's a little thing that people can try, and it was just by chance. So, colin, so what happened was I had a there was a skunk we had about probably about three years that regularly frequented our yard, getting eaten grubs and digging up the stuff like that and actually going to the bird feeders. And one of the things that I do call in is I take old coffee grounds from my perk coffee at home, so I take the coffee percolator and I started throwing the coffee grounds around because they work as a good fertilizer. So coffee grounds in the first year they're not a good fertilizer, but in the second year the nitrogen and only, quite frankly, about I think only about 2% of the nutrients are extracted from coffee when they use the beans and things like that. So the rest of it makes a good fertilizer.
Speaker 3:And when I started spreading coffee grounds around in the yard, no more skunks and I haven't been putting coffee grounds around probably for about a year, maybe a year and a half now, and I haven't been putting coffee grounds around probably for about a year, maybe a year and a half now, and now the skunks are back. So, starting today, I will be putting coffee grounds around the yard to keep the skunks away and hopefully it'll continue to work. But these are the small things that we learn.
Speaker 4:That's it. I'll have to give it a shot. I've got a dog myself. He has yet to be sprayed and of course, now that I say that, of course tomorrow he's going to be sprayed. So I'll give their coffee ground tip a shot. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, colin, tell us about your position, what you do and where you work, and tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 4:Absolutely so. I'm the policy manager at the Invasive Species Centre. It's a not-for-profit, so it's not within government, but we work closely with different government partners, local non-government organizations, green groups, friends of researchers, academics, first Nations, municipalities, basically anybody who's working on invasive species. We just try and offer them our support, connect them with others interested in it, fighting the good fight on invasive species, doing good work in it, fighting the good fight on invasive species, doing good work. And ultimately we approach the issue from not just an environmental and ecological perspective which of course invasive species have devastating impacts on the environment but also from an economic and social well-being perspective too, because these things are very costly and ultimately they end know municipalities and all taxpayers a lot of money to manage.
Speaker 4:You know everybody in Ontario and in other parts of North America are now very familiar with emerald ash borer, a really problematic tree beetle. It's an invasive species and that thing has become incredibly costly to our municipalities who are managing urban forests and street trees, to say nothing of woodlot managers too. And other species that kind of have negative impacts on our cultural use of our beautiful ecosystems in Ontario and beyond too. So we try and approach it from kind of that triple bottom line approach here looking at invasive species as an ecological issue with negative impacts on biodiversity, an economic issue, with how costly they can become to manage, and also just a social aspect too, in terms of, you know, impeding our ability to use waterfronts and beaches and access our beautiful fresh waters that we have and we're so proud of. So that's kind of the who I am, who we are and how we try and approach the issue.
Speaker 3:Very good. Well, there's going to be a lot of things I'm going to want to talk to you about, colin, because you've got a wealth of knowledge and information. But just before we get to that, now for people who get their dog sprayed hydrogen peroxide that's what we used last night and there's a formula you mix it with water and if you have baking soda, you can mix it with that and wash the dog with hydrogen peroxide. Don't get it in the dog's eyes, but it cleaned up the dog immediately.
Speaker 3:But the problem was in our house was that the carpets got rubbed, the couches got rubbed, everything stank by the time we got him into the tub, but hydrogen peroxide, and I said, like when I was talking about it earlier, that I jump in and because I remember, quickly remembered what we use. But yeah, we use hydrogen peroxide and water mixture and it washes the skunk oils off the dog. Clean them up real quick, anyways. So now, colin, so what kind of background do you have or what kind of education did you have to get involved in something like this Cause we deal now. Where about you located first, before we get into the education component.
Speaker 4:Yes, I'm in Peterborough, Ontario, about an hour and a half east of Toronto, right on the north shore of Lake Ontario in the Great Lakes region. So yeah, that's where I am. And how did I approach it? So, when I was doing my undergraduate degree at Trent University in Peterborough, when I was doing my undergraduate degree at Trent University in Peterborough, I was lucky enough to get a part-time summer job supporting a faculty member who was interested in aquatic plants and aquatic plants that were growing in our lakes, kind of impeding boat traffic or our ability to swim.
Speaker 4:Jump in off the end of the dock and find yourself on a pile of weeds, and what that researcher was trying to do is trying to figure out, you know, how can we sustainably and ecologically manage those kind of nuisance vegetation, and most of them were invasive species. So the species of interest it's kind of a real challenge globally is Eurasian water milfoil, and so that was my gateway into invasive species and after that I turned into doing my master's degree on earthworms, which are kind of an interesting little known invasive species. They're all over the place and actually most parts of North America, certainly in Ontario and in Canada, there's nearly no native species of earthworm. So 13,000 years ago, glaciation happens, wipes out all the earthworms that would have been around at the time and yeah, yeah, and so all the earthworms that we're familiar with now. If we walk down a sidewalk after a rain, you'll notice lots of earthworms, and those are actually all invasive species, kind of interestingly enough.
Speaker 3:Well, I can remember as a kid it's just in grade school, so it would be like grade five I used to pick earthworms and sell them to the companies that would collect them, and we would go out at night with um flashlights, particularly after a rain, and we would pick actually it was tomato juice size cans of earthworms and get five dollars a can, which was pretty good, but I didn't realize that they were invasive species. How long have they been around and you know any idea on how they got like?
Speaker 4:many invasive species, especially aquatic invasive species. They came over uh early 1800s, late, late 1700s as a ship ballast from uh european originating ships coming over, so they would shovel some soil or now they would fill their ballast with water and that helps this kind of increase in stability as it crosses the atlantic. Um, and yeah, basically, when you get here in shallower waters and you're starting to move your vessel uh more inland, you know, unload that water, you unload that soil and with earthworms specifically, that's generally the pathway that they first came over. And actually it's really interesting with earthworms is it's really really hard. Unfortunately I'm speaking from first-hand knowledge it's really hard to find a reference site. If you're looking at a worm-free environment and trying to compare that to a heavy worm place, it's really tough to find worm-free environments. And that speaks to how great they are at moving around and spreading around as an invasive species, to how great they are at moving around and spreading around as an invasive species and they spread of their own accord, for sure.
Speaker 4:But they also get a little helpful assist from people like you and me. You know, inadvertently moving them around, either in soil for our gardens or compost or maybe even just in fishing. You know, sometimes we'll throw people at the end of their fishing exercise. We'll throw some worms over the side of the boat. Don't need those last two or three. And the interesting thing about earthworms they can actually survive 30 days underwater by themselves and crawl out onto the other side of the lake and invade that forest. So they're really really interesting. Individually, obviously, they don't weigh very much, but if you add up all of their biomass, they're one of the most abundant organisms across the planet. Their weight had up all of their biomass, they're one of the most abundant organisms across the planet. Our weight alone, so a really interesting one, yeah.
Speaker 3:I had no idea, but some invasive species are more problematic than others in my opinion. Like you talked about the emerald ash borer beetle, we can talk about that shortly if you'd like but earthworms, are they problematic or are they beneficial? Or is there more benefits to problems?
Speaker 4:You're right, all invasive species are not created equally. I think the real challenge with earthworms specifically is just the key message is they can be good for the gardens and generally they're in most gardens anyways. Like I say, so they do good positive, beneficial functions like increase soil porosity, help us with gas exchange, help make sure water can infiltrate down to the roots really effectively. Even their castings, their worm poop, it's a really good fertilizer. So maybe keep that in mind. I don't know if it's consistent, but there you go. But so they're good in that context.
Speaker 4:But you know, obviously those kinds of of habitats, those gardens, they're really, uh, human made, right. They're not really those kind of natural ecosystems that kind of thrive in their own. So if we think about good forests or grasslands or kind of more natural environments, ecologically earthworms are really bad news. So they end up changing what plants can grow in a forest and decrease how biodiverse or the number of species that are present there. And unfortunately, when we see decreases in plant biodiversity it actually kind of trickles through the ecosystem. So we see fewer species of birds, ground nesting birds, being able to set up habitat there and use those ecosystems, and so it's really interesting.
Speaker 4:Some studies have actually kind of traced earthworm introduction, even all the way up to the lack of the ability of a beautiful sugar maple tree that's 60 years old or 80 years old. It's reduced that tree's ability to withstand drought because earthworms are wonderful consumers of kind of nature's compost, if you like, or its mulch layer, which are in deciduous forest leaves. So earthworms are coming in and they can consume all of that beautiful organic material and actually have a negative impact on a tree's ability to withstand drought, which of course is happening at a higher occurrence now. So really interesting. They're tiny little critters but their impacts certainly add up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting. Now, I don't know if you're familiar with Dr Suzanne Simard out of the University of British Columbia and her research on the mycosal relationships that are found with trees, whereby, essentially, we have arbuscular or echo mycosal relationships with trees, where they would communicate and feed each other nutrients through a fungal network found inside the ground. Okay, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not, but one of the big concerns with regarding that was I was wondering if earthworms were eating a lot of the fungal network in the ground and potentially destroying some of those, because what her research found was that trees were feeding each other and passing nutrients on. So in drought areas, if one tree had an abundance of nutrients or moisture, it could transfer it through the fungal network inside the soil to other trees of the same species or, so long as they were, for example, trees that had arbuscular relationships with the fungal network. Are you familiar with any of that?
Speaker 4:I am. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I think, with respect to the earthworm dynamic, there definitely are a couple people looking at earthworms, as you know. What are their overall ecosystem implications? But so many more questions to be explored, a little bit of work on that kind of mycorrhizal dynamic and what are the earthworms doing specifically to our forest? Because they're you know, like I say, at that abundance, even small little impacts individually are really going to start to add up and cascade and you know they're moving organic soils way down into mineral soil layers and they're moving mineral soils way up. So yeah, with respect to that, all kinds of implications, I think we're really just starting to understand what's happening in that black box which is everything below the leaf litter layer in our forests.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so that's one of the things that I've mentioned a number of times that essentially what I do is, when you talk about you know you're finding after a rain, you find on the sidewalk or the roadways an abundance of earthworms there on the sidewalk or the roadways, an abundance of earthworms there. Those end up getting thrown on my lawn to aerate, to fertilize and to provide methods for moisture to get into the soil. And I suggest to people that look, if you're talking about fertilizing and doing things and you're looking at all the potential chemicals that is used or artificial. Now my son Garrett, who's done a number of podcasts with us, he's out working at developing a potash mine in Saskatchewan right now, which is a great fertilizer. But this might be one of the ways to naturally aerate, fertilize your lawns is with earthworms. Yes, no, no.
Speaker 4:I mean the reality is they're probably there in presence already. I think the challenge as an invasive species you know my gripe if I had one with earthworms is not their presence in those heavily modified environments, in our lawns, in our gardens, again in a vacuum, they do provide positive benefits. The challenge is when we start to find them in high abundance in other places, when we start to dump the bait bucket over the side of the boat and they crawl up into the natural system. That's really where I see the challenge. But you're absolutely right, I'm kind of in that vacuum in a human-dominated environment. You know in our provisions places like that, earthworms individually and in the garden bed. You know that my challenge is if they would stay in the garden bed and in the grass and in the lawn, I'd have no grievance with them, I wouldn't be griping about them. But you know challenge when they start to move at high abundance into our kind of you know more natural ecosystems. That's really hard to see them be a challenge to the environment.
Speaker 3:Well, in regards to earthworms, I'm not sure how old you are. If you're familiar with the WKRP in Cincinnati, the TV show and their number one sponsor was Red Wiggler, the Cadillac of worms. Now, is there different species of worms and how many? Any idea on how many species of worms there are? Is Red Wiggler and actually a worm, or was that just something in that show?
Speaker 4:I bet you didn't think you're signing up for a worm podcast today. Absolutely yeah. So red wigglers, they're the most widely so. In Ontario there's about 20 species of earthworms and it's a similar story in Canada and North America northern part of the US at least. It's a similar enough story Basically. Anywhere where glaciation negatively well, anywhere glaciers came down more than 2,000 years ago, they really scoured and wiped out basically almost all of the earthworm species. So right now we have about 20 in ontario, you know add a couple more for canada context and 18 of those 20 in ontario alone are invasive.
Speaker 4:The two need the two. Those other two outliers are really rare stream bed only species, species that you wouldn't come across. They're not the species in your garden or the ones on the sidewalk after a rain. And of those 18 species, red wiggler is definitely one. The most common one is common night crawler.
Speaker 4:That's the one that's, you know, that big, large, very meaty earthworm that you'd use if you're out there fishing and you stop to get a dozen worms on the way to the lake.
Speaker 4:That's the one that's widely available and probably the second most abundant are red wigglers, and where we come across those, in terms of trade and commerce. Usually they're being sold for vermicomposters or kind of below-the-sink little rubbermaid totes that you might have used worms to digest some of your green waste. You might have used worms to digest some of your green waste. Red wigglers are really common because of their ability to reproduce at high abundances and also munch through an awful lot of plant material. So again, no concern in terms of if they would stay under the sink in the compost bin that'd be great. The challenge is when we start to see their ecological implications out in the environment. Because they're such good consumers in that Rubbermaid tote munching away on the green waste, they're also really good consumers of our important leaf litter layers, which are kind of like Mother Nature's mulch, if you like, protecting our seeds for our soil seed bank. That would become the next version of that forest. So when they get out in the environment they really consume a lot of ecologically important functions.
Speaker 3:So the leaf waste provides a better nutrient for trees than actually earthworm excrement. That's what I'm hearing as well. Or is it just because it's emulsion and retains water and things like that?
Speaker 4:Well, the challenge in the natural environment too.
Speaker 4:You're right, they do leave behind those castings and I guess you know in a modified environment in our garden those castings could ecologically be really helpful to our plants Right Great source of nutrients.
Speaker 4:The challenge is when those red wigglers or the other 18 species are out there munching away on the leaf litter layer, they actually work entirely. So if we're out for a walk this afternoon, walking through a forest on one side of the path, we might look out and see almost no sugar maple leaves or no deciduous leaves, it's just bare exposed soil and that, I would think, is a very high abundance earthworm site. If we look to the other side and saw some of those leaves even though it's it's, you know, early summer and we would expect to not see a ton of leaves from last year most of those will start to compost down. There still would be some and that's an ecologically important kind of a mulch feature that protects seed seed predators and does all sorts of interesting ecological things. So yeah, usually kind of tell earthworm abundance just by how the surface of the soil looks. And when surface of the soil is exposed in a forest it can lead to things like water loss and even soil degradation too. So that's I.
Speaker 3:I had no idea about that at all. I would have thought I thought they were beneficial and, quite frankly, I thought they were a native species. But here's a question for you then. Manitoulin Island. Do you know some of the history about Manitoulin Island and the glaciers?
Speaker 4:Not as much. Give me the Colesnotes version.
Speaker 3:Okay, manitoulin Island is the only place in North America that wasn't covered by glaciers. The glaciers split there and did not cover Manitoulin Island, and when they have a museum down at Providence Bay that goes into the details about how it's the only spot in North America that wasn't covered. So I'm wondering if there would be natural species there that were not killed off by the glaciers because it was not covered by glaciers. It's just the way that it played out and it was rather kind of unique that it was the only spot in North America that didn't get covered by glaciers. A lot didn't know that.
Speaker 4:Did you? No, can't be in that I got to go looking for some earthworms there and then see what I find.
Speaker 3:So, and one of the other things is, I know because the season's over now, but we talk about wild leeks or ramps a lot, and one of the things that I regularly see is an abundance of earthworms in patches of wild leeks and I always thought that was a good sign. Now I'm not sure. Is it a good sign or a bad sign or indifferent? Is that they actually have a or play a role in there at all?
Speaker 4:Well, on leeks, I'm not sure On other spring ephemerals or other early spring wildflowers, things like trilliums and bloodroot I've got a bit more data on.
Speaker 4:So one of their interesting things is they're actually big seed predators. That's one of the biggest challenges they've got. Is most seeds even way bigger things than you would think they're able to wrap their mouth around and grind them up in their gizzard or at least poop them out. And whether they actually consume them or grind the seeds down, or even if they just bury them and ecologically kill them, keep in mind some of those big night crawlers can go well over a couple feet deep, so they can ecologically kill a seed even if they didn't consume it. They're actually they're kind of selective seed consumers, so they don't eat every seed equally and they do love a number of spring ephemerals.
Speaker 4:So one of the challenges we see is in heavy earthworm sites we actually see decreases in things like bloodroot, trilliums and other species too. So I'm not sure about wild leeks. I know reproduce by uh, by seed, and it takes a while to get those seeds ready to go. So I don't know, maybe that's that's another study. Maybe to be done is to figure out what their consumption rate is on yeah, the wild leaks were one of the spots.
Speaker 3:Where we do some of the harvesting is. There's a lot of trilliums, a huge abundance, as well as a lot of blood root there as well, and trout lily and a bunch of the usual stuff you find in the forest, and it was surprising the number of earthworms that we come across when I'm digging up some of the patches or actually moving the patches around. But this is all new and very interesting. I had no idea. But now, colin, you mentioned your degree. What is your degree in? At Trent?
Speaker 4:At Trent. It's in restoration ecology, so I'm an ecologist by training there and similar enough fields. When I did my master's it was in ecology and evolutionary biology.
Speaker 3:And where'd you do your master's? At Trent as well.
Speaker 4:University of Toronto.
Speaker 3:U of T. Okay, very good, just people like to know those kind of things and it's always good because we get a lot of individuals who find interest in this and a lot of the people that would listen to it would know. Well, I'm interested in getting into that. Where do I go? Now? They know because you gave us the information. So, trent, we wanted to talk about, uh, aquatic, but you mentioned the emerald ash borer beetle and I think one of the the reasons that I want to bring it up because I was minister when it first basic. Well, when it was first discussed in the province, it probably came in and my understanding was it was down in Windsor and some contaminated skids from Asia and China was, as I recall, was the place where they came in in Windsor and then they slowly started expanding from there.
Speaker 3:What's happening with the emerald ash borer? Do you have background information or knowledge about the emerald ash borer beetle? Is it transferring, because I have foresters trying to tell me that they're now finding what's happening with the emerald ash borer? Do you have background information or knowledge about the emerald ash borer beetle? Is it transferring, because I have foresters trying to tell me that they're now finding emerald ash borer beetles in other trees such as black cherry, but I can't verify that or haven't come across anybody who's had some expertise to actually say it. These are just probably woodcutters who are in the forest and finding a lot of black cherry die-offs and blaming the emerald ash borer beetle. Can you give us some updates on that or any information?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's the challenge. Yeah, so emerald ash borer is ash specific, thankfully. So we have a number of different species of ash and the EAB likes pretty much all of them Green ash and black ash, you know of note for sure, and we've definitely seen massive declines in terms of their abundance. In parts of the Great Lakes area. We used to see about maybe 10% regional forest cover of ash, some places much more, some places much less, but on average 10% is a reasonable guesstimate, and most of those ash have unfortunately been lost, and that is a ton of ash to lose over, let's call it, two decades more or less, basically since its introduction. So at an incredible rate it's decreased ash within urban forests and obviously healthy urban forests are important for a variety of reasons, including resilience to climate change, but a bunch of other reasons too, just in terms of natural appreciation and, you know, home values too. And that's a lot of trees to try and replace in only a couple of decades. So it's really really been a challenge to keep up. In addition, obviously, to the massive expense, those are incredibly costly assets to maintain. If you're a municipality, remove a bunch of street trees. I grew up on a street that used to be called White Ash Drive in Whitby in Durham region, ontario, and I think it's probably time to rename the street. But it's really unfortunate and how emerald ash borer of course moves around and has spread widely throughout Ontario, especially in those early days but also still since has been contaminated firewood. So the beetle itself on its own is only going to move a few kilometers a year by kind of natural flying. It's a reasonable flyer, but it's a small beetle and how does it move hundreds of kilometers year over year? Well, that's unfortunately because it's hitchhiking along with contaminated firewood. So there are federal regulations in place that will kind of prevent the movement of contaminated wood from within that regulated area outside. So that's helped us to curb it and slow the spread of the species, thankfully. But unfortunately it's really wreaked havoc throughout Ontario's forests and all of many Great Lakes states and provinces as well. So where are we at in terms of state of play in 2024?
Speaker 4:Emerald Ash Borer is, you know, still has forests defined in Ontario but it's really really quite widely established and it's here and kind of spread its impact it's into other adjacent provinces and states as well. In the north it can still overwinter. Unfortunately, with many invasive species, be the forest pests or others. We hope that maybe our northern winters can kind of curb their spread or maybe prevent additional cycles of offspring every year. Unfortunately, amaral Ash Borer does just fine Thunder Bay, for example, it's done quite well in northern Ontario. So that northern kind of climate resiliency that maybe we hope could keep its populations in check hasn't done so yet.
Speaker 4:So you know really the key message on how do we prevent further spread. I guess the good news you can probably tell I'm a bit of an optimist is you know we've got good actions that can prevent emerald ash borer spread. That would also insulate us from the next big invasive species. From a forestry perspective, things like Asian longhorn beetle and hemlock, liatelch and many others Don't move wood or burn local wood only is a really important message because it's the antidote for emerald ash borer, just as it is for the next emerald ash borer, many other species to come which we're actively trying to prevent. But you know, of course there's a reasonable probability that new invasive forest pests are going to continue to come in and anything we can do to prevent their spread and safeguard our forests and pocketbooks is welcome advice, I think.
Speaker 3:So in regards to ash, what is some of the ways to ensure longevity of the ash canopy in the province of Ontario and areas that have been decimated by the emerald ash borer beetle? Can we plant more ash trees there? That'll eventually. Is it a cycle? Once they've killed them all off in an area, then the bug has no place to live, so we can bring back more ash trees in those areas and it'll eventually come back in as it cycles through. But or is it? What's the answer for a lot of that? Can we? How do we keep the ash trees popular in the province?
Speaker 4:well at a really macro, high level scale. That one of the good, important uh helps on the way, I guess, is uh. For a number of years the federal government's been developing a biological control agent which has been released in canada, the US. It's host specific, so that means that if presented with a choice of consume the target species or die, it will die. So it's not going to jump ship onto something else like historic. Many, many, many decades ago some other biocontrol agents that were not host specific had NOx against them. So it is emerald ash borer-specific.
Speaker 4:So this wasp is from its native range and comes and feeds away on emerald ash borer. Is that going to remove or eradicate emerald ash borer from Ontario? No way, that's not the target. It's about suppressing the populations of emerald ash borer, introducing some host-specific competition that can help keep its populations at a reasonable level and allow our ash to survive, hopefully thrive, long-term. So that would be kind of the cavalry coming in long-term.
Speaker 4:And that's an insect. Those are wasps that have been released, I think, for about a decade in Ontario, maybe longer, at this point too. So that's a helpful asset in terms of something that's on the way, in terms of what we can do well if you have a high, if you're a property owner with a high value tree, let's say you've got a beautiful ash tree that's right beside your house that hasn't shown any signs of declines. What some arborists would do is you know you can treat a tree and you know it's very costly. Of course, course we're not going to be out there treating every tree in Ontario. But what the homeless have opted in some instances, where it makes sense for them, maybe that tree reduces it's just curb appeal. Maybe it reduces their uh, their air conditioning bill.
Speaker 3:Um, for a variety of reasons, people might choose to treat a particular tree again with the cost of the cost to take down some of those huge trees can be quite extravagant in a lot of places that I know because I mentioned this about the treatment. Now these are the injections they put inside the tree.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly so there's one registered product. I'm not the expert on it and implementation, but local arborists now across the province are starting to offer it quite commonly as a service. It quite commonly as a service and even some municipalities are respecting that same. You know, doing the delicate dance of the equation you outlined there and trying to figure what would it cost us to remove this tree, what would it cost us to treat this tree for the next five years? Okay, it makes sense to save this tree and they're making it on kind of a case-by-case and budgetary basis and it kind of brings up something interesting too is just the overall cost of of invasive species.
Speaker 4:Emerald ash borer is the case in point. It is driving most of our spending on invasive species throughout the last two decades and it's actually so sopping up about 50 of all the spending on invasive species by ontario's municipalities. We spend about 52 54 million bucks a year as municipalities across the province on invasive species and this is really just about, you know, phragmites in the roadside, ditch or treating the emerald ash borer trees. It's about the most pressing ones. It's not necessarily the most forward-looking preventative approach. It's really about what the biggest, most pressing issues are in terms of management day-to-day, and emald Ash Borer is actually occupying about half of that spending.
Speaker 4:Of course that spending we'd love to do in other places, not have to incur those costs, those remove those hazard trees that are at the end of somebody's driveway, you know, threatening to fall on property or people. We'd much rather be investing those resources in other spaces, of course. So it's really interesting emerald ash borer is kind of the poster child here for how costly just one shipping pallet introduction or one new species introduction can ultimately become again, two decades down the line, really costly the cost out of yeah, I always wondered, though is the case when you deal with a lot of ash trees that have been infected by the emerald ash borer beetle and essentially what you see is a little, how do people identify a tree?
Speaker 3:And you look and you find these kind of little holes, I guess small pencil size holes that go in. Is that? Are you familiar with how they get in and how they bore into the tree and through the bark? Is that what people look?
Speaker 4:for yeah, so the best I mean honestly, the best sign is a dying ash tree. The time we find those exit holes, chances are that there's a pretty sizable population of beetles within that tree or larva within that tree. The best example of something, if you've got your, if you're really walking up to your ash tree and looking real close at the bark, what you might see is almost like a capital D, like a semicircle. That's the shape of the exit hole and it's because if we took a cross section of the beetle, chopped the beetle in half, we'd actually see that same kind of semicircle back and flat tummy. So when they're crawling out of the tree, when the adults are about to exit the tree or emerge from the tree, that's what we'd see as the best indicator.
Speaker 4:But I think the easiest thing that any you know untrained eye, you know you or me, if we're walking around looking for these things, what would we see?
Speaker 4:We probably just see ash trees in decline. And so what a tree, ash tree in decline looks like is they're sending out little suckers from the base, maybe those two, three, four foot kind of little shoots around the bottom of the trunk and that looks like a tree in decline or sometimes we see increased woodpecker activity too. You know they're they're quicker to realize than us when there's lots of tasty larvae in that tree and they'll, uh, they'll really zero in on that tree. So usually, by the time, certainly, that we see those, those shoots, those epicormic shoots or those tree um tree branches in in distress or heavy woodpecker activity, that's well past the point, unfortunately, that we can do anything to save that tree. Those treatments are more preventative and they can prevent a tree from getting to that point. But unfortunately, once we kind of see those two or three signs, it's almost game over for the tree and the conversation usually shifts from a homeowner's perspective to how quickly can we get that tree off the property to avoid a pretty hefty insurance bill?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know the city of Oshawa was injecting a number of the ash trees and a couple of the areas that I tested with them the city, because I built some walking trails in the city and there was a huge ash that probably might be close to 36 inches in diameter and they injected it for two years but the tree still ended up dying. And the ones that I did see that had the injections, because they take these large syringes and they put them in. I'm not sure how successful they have been with those injections and I don't know if is it just one injection or do you know if it's a couple of years or how long it takes to inject a tree to be able to kill off the boar beetle that's in there. Any idea?
Speaker 4:It's the question for your local arborist for sure, and the guidance has changed For a while. It was a treat every year and there's more. We've kind of got it down to a bit of a proper recipe at this point too. Unfortunately, we've learned the hard ways in many examples, but repeated treatment is definitely required and, yeah, local contractors, local arborists, are starting to pick this up as a new line of business for themselves and a great service that's been offered and yeah, so unfortunately in Ontario we've learned the hard way, especially some parts, especially in southwestern Ontario, windsor, as you say, really kind of ground zero. We've paid the price ecologically and economically.
Speaker 4:Other jurisdictions are starting to pick up some of those best practices for sure, apply them to Emerald Ash Borer and certainly also apply them to other species.
Speaker 4:That's the interesting thing about Emerald ash borer is that you know it really identified a really important pathway that was needed to be shut down, and so some of the steps that have been taken since then would be new palette regulations so that any new palettes coming into Ontario or in Canada regulated by the federal government have to be treated, for example. So it's really interesting. We're trying to make lemonade out of lemons here and trying to take some of those lessons learned, because so many of these invasive species, like I say, they might be a different species, they might impact a different target host, but ultimately they share so many commonalities, whether it's all forest pests or all aquatics to zebra mussels. It's really interesting. So I think the more we can do to shut down the pathway a little bit better and have really cost-effective regulations at the highest end here addressing those root source pathways, the better off we can all be and ultimately save some money too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you mentioned the sucker branches, which essentially is they're kind of little shoots that come off the bottom of a tree, and I watched where the city of Oshawa, in one of the parks where I run my skunk spray dog in, what they did was there was a lot of sucker branches coming off. They cut the ash tree down and now those sucker branches have made a small cluster. I think there's three in the cluster that have survived of those, the suckle branches that were there from the roots, and those are now probably three inches in diameter. Those three in there maybe four. But is that something that'll keep a lot of those ash trees going? Because how big a tree does it need to be for the boar beetle to get in? Is there a minimum size or is there any limitations on that at all?
Speaker 4:Any idea. There is a minimum size and our entomologist would be the perfect person to tell. If I could phone a friend I'd call him in. But there is a minimum bolt size too that would allow a beetle. So they won't be going after those tiny little saplings. There is kind of a certain size. So we're still seeing.
Speaker 4:Obviously, you know, 20 years ago is when we started to lose some ash trees, and maybe 10 years ago, on a broader scale, we started to lose them. So there's obviously still an existing soil seed bank of lots of ash seeds here that are regrowing. So if we're out for a walk this afternoon and we look around, we could still see some of those small saplings that EAB has yet to fully take hold on yet because they're not quite overwintering or that large enough bolt size that they can successfully overwinter. And so we've got a little bit of the next version of our ash forest still hanging on, coming up and hopefully things like that biocontrol agent can help us keep those emerald ash borer populations suppressed or at some new level of reasonable or normal so that our ash trees can kind of come back with, hopefully with a bit of a vengeance.
Speaker 3:Now, one of the things that I always wondered was, when you have a contaminated tree, if you're burning the firewood, is that not good because you're killing off the insects that would be in inside those, those trees, and that way you're eliminating those ones that are there? Or once the tree is dead and fallen and cut into firewood, have they removed themselves from the tree? Are they still there inside the bark? Or is it a good thing to burn that wood to get rid of any of the larva or the eggs that might be in there?
Speaker 4:You know, I think if you're keeping the wood on site it's still a reasonable, it's a great fuel source for sure. It'd be a bit of a shame to waste it. Of course, moving that off site there's absolutely larvae within it. There might be some adults still hanging around too. So in any occurrence, whether it's a freshly felled ash tree that was infested by emerald ash borer or not, you know, keeping that wood local, especially if it's known to have lots of emerald ash borer on it, keep it on site to move it for sure, and burn it on site. It's still a great fuel source and of course, you know there's not a lot of options. That's a lot of biomass to move and and dispose of in other ways, and so I think burning it on site is still a reasonable best practice for sure, for great firewood for sure. And unfortunately we do see some of those larvae hanging on.
Speaker 4:We just felled some ash trees at my in-laws this weekend, that kind of, you know, beautiful trees like 50, 60 year old, really nice looking white ash. Finally, emerald Ash Borer had found them a few years ago and got them to the point where it's time to say goodbye. So you know, we took down those trees, chopped them up into firewood, keeping them on site to be burned right over the summer, you know. So we're trying to reduce any movement or anything like that. I think it's the best practice. For sure it's still make use of the wood, but again, do not move that contaminated firewood. There's regulations in place and it's also a best practice just to do in terms of helping protect our other yet-to-be-found ash forests.
Speaker 6:Hi everybody. I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right every Thursday, ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm, now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 5:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 1:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch.
Speaker 6:Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes All the other guys would go golfing.
Speaker 7:Me and Garton Turk and all the Russians would go fishing To scientists.
Speaker 1:But now that we're reforesting and letting things breathe. It's the perfect transmission environment for line fishing.
Speaker 2:To chefs If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated, you will taste it.
Speaker 6:And whoever else will pick up the phone Wherever you are. Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify.
Speaker 3:Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And now it's time for another testimonial for Chaga Health Wellness. Hi, it's Jerry from Chaga Health and Wellness. We're here in Lindsay with Tula, who is actually from Finland and uses Chaga. Tula, you've had some good experiences with Chaga. Can you just tell us what that experience is?
Speaker 5:Yes, I got sick with fibro and one weekend my husband came here alone. I was home and he brought your leaflet Right and I read it and I said next weekend when we go to a market we're going to buy some. And so we started putting it in our morning smoothie.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:And among a few other things that I was doing. Because of that, the Chaka has been the steady one. Great, I would not want to live without it. Oh good, yeah, so it's been working for me Very good. Lots of ways.
Speaker 3:And you had some good luck with blood pressure as well.
Speaker 5:Oh right, yeah, Thanks for remembering that. Yeah, oh right, yeah, thanks for remembering that. Yeah, I had a little bit of high elevated blood pressure and within two weeks of starting that every day every morning it went to normal.
Speaker 3:And you think the chaga was the reason why.
Speaker 5:Well, I didn't do anything else in that time frame.
Speaker 3:And so how much chaga did you have and how did you have it?
Speaker 5:Well, we just put that powder in the smoothie, right? And it's about a tablespoon. No, it's less than a tablespoon. Teaspoon, yeah, so you don't need that much.
Speaker 3:Right, but a teaspoon, yeah, yeah, very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. We really appreciate that and wish you all the best with the Chaga. Oh, you're from Finland as well, and Chaga is pretty popular in Finland, is it not?
Speaker 5:I think it probably is, because there's some professors in a university that's teaching it and talking about it, and of course it's big in Russia, right, because that's where you know the northern woods that comes from, yep, and of course Finland has lots of birch trees.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 6:Yeah, and it's the only mushroom that you can't forage in Finland. You have to forage everything else, but not the chaga.
Speaker 3:Oh, very good. Well, thanks very much for sharing that. Okay, have a great day, thank you. We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. Products at checkout. All you have to do is head over to our website, chagahealthandwellnesscom, place a few items in the cart and check out with the code CANOPY, c-a-n-o-p-y. If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. This comes with 15 tea bags per package and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. Hey, thanks for listening.
Speaker 3:Back to the episode, colin. One of the things that we wanted to talk about was and we should get to it is some of the aquatic aspects of aquatic species, invasive species and things like that. Now, I know I did some research on zebra mussels or the gobies that are out there and some of the other ones that are there. What can you kind of tell us about the impacts of, say, zebra mussels, if you've had any research or impact understandings of what it's done to a lot of the municipalities or businesses?
Speaker 4:Oh, you know, zebra mussels are like the emerald dashboard of our lakes, unfortunately. So really similar stories and similar scale of impacts to zebra mussels have been around in the great lakes region for a few decades now, unfortunately. They've really spread quite quickly and quite thoroughly. And how do they spread around? Well, of course, the kind of natural dispersal. You know. They move around as small distances that way, but really we're the a great mover of zebra mussels, or villagers, which are kind of the baby zebra mussels. And how do we move them around? Well, usually through things like if people will pull their boats out, trailer their boats out and maybe leave the drain plug in and there's small bits and pieces of water, or maybe they've got a live well, which is a kind of a container within the boat, if you like, where you can keep fish in and circulate water within it, and uh and so, though, it's just those couple little nooks and crannies that small amounts of water can kind of move around when that boat is trailered from one lake today and we're going to put it in the next lake tomorrow. That's really the big pathway, and we see long-distance movement of watercraft within Canada, within North America more broadly, people going away on vacation or even just buying and selling boats from one province or state to another, and we've seen zebra mussels move around quite widely through that kind of human-assisted pathway too.
Speaker 4:What do they do and how do they cost us money and ecological debt? Well, what do they do, you know, from a human perspective? We've seen a lot of municipalities and utility companies have to pay really expensive bills to replace water intake pipes. So that might be a wastewater treatment site, that might be a hydroelectric facility, but just taking that you know infrastructure and pipes and having to replace them at really really high frequencies, much higher than they normally would need to do. And that's because zebra mussels find their way into those intake pipes and start to just use that as habitat and quickly clog up those pipes and ultimately becomes very expensive. That's one of the next most costly invasive species to Ontario's municipality.
Speaker 4:And where are they basically? In Ontario and in and in north america they're quite widely distributed throughout the great lake states, um, and where are they in canada? They're not quite established into the prairies and into western canada yet. Um, saskatchewan, manitoba, alberta, bc they've all got really. Um, uh, they're trying to throw the book at zebra mussels and quagga mussels, which is a similar species but different but very much related kind of the same version, but just different species, same level of impacts.
Speaker 4:And you know what are they trying to do to protect their natural, their freshwater systems. They've got things like zebra mussel inspection stations. If you pull over on the Trans-Canada Highway, if you're moving a boat, they'll flag it down. You've got to pull in and they'll have an inspector walk around your boat and just make sure that you've got simple things done, like pulling the drain plug in your boat so that any water has been able to drain out so you can't move around.
Speaker 4:Things like zebra mussels Inspection stations even have zebra mussel trained dogs so if your dog gets rid of the skunk smell, maybe you can start training them up for zebra mussel infections, because it's a really helpful tool and ultimately you know the cost is worth it here, because these things can become incredibly costly. Really, how our municipal and local infrastructure operates, some of those incredible management and replacement costs are just not things we want to be paying for. So preventing the spread of zebra mussels by simple little things like pulling the drain plug on your boat or pumping out your bilge or life well, can be really helpful. You know two, three minute activities that can help us protect other fresh waters from zebra mussels.
Speaker 3:So any idea on how zebra mussels first got here, Colin?
Speaker 4:You know, back to the ballast conversation. We had those ships kind of loading in soil a couple hundred years ago. Well, next step, they did soil. They said well, you know, water is much easier to load in and pump out. So they switched their approach and so ships loading up with water from other parts of the globe also, you know they bring in water into their ballast but they also bring in other creatures and critters and plants and other things, like a zebra mussel too.
Speaker 4:So that's how zebra mussels first found their way into the Great Lakes region was through contaminated ballast water and some of the interesting things the federal government in particular is doing a lot in terms of just changing regulations to help address that ballast pathway. So I talked before about the pallet pathway being addressed for shipping pallets for Emerald Ash Borer introduction. Similar steps happening over here on the aquatic side by having ballast water having to be flushed out in saltwater, having to be treated by other kind of on vehiclevehicle or on-boat treatment facilities so little things like that have really added up and helped us turn off the taps on new Great Lake introductions through the ballast pathway.
Speaker 3:Well, just so you probably don't know this, colin, but in the late 90s I introduced a bill that was to deal with invasive species and, when it could be identified, the company responsible was responsible for the entire cleanup of the invasive species that they brought in, and the shipping companies went nuts on it. They did not want to have any of this because of the impacts and essentially what happens is so people listening to the podcast won't understand what they do is they bring in ballast in order to lower the ship to make it more stable in heavy water, and then, when they get to their location, they empty that water in order to take their loads on to go back to wherever they were going with. But the problem with that and I believe it's, I think it's around Gobi you can correct me if I'm wrong that was identified to one specific ship, where it came from and how it got to North America through the Great Lakes in the first place. And so with this private members bill that I had the Coast Guard there who was doing presentations and actually I was asked to present in front of some US Senate committees about it because they thought it was a spectacular idea and they were moving forward with a lot of that and one of the things that a lot of the shipping companies explained was that they were moving forward with what was called deep water discharge for invasive species reasons and essentially what happens was and their explanation at that time was that in certain areas in deep water in the Atlantic there is no ability for light to get deep enough to be able to produce insects or bugs or things that would be feeding in that. So the nutrients in that area were extremely limited because they need a bottom source where the light can get down deep enough and in deep water discharge there was minimal amounts, if any, of potential species in there. So in deep water when they could, they would do a ballast exchange and bring in deep water which had minimal opportunities for invasive species to be living in, and then use that. But not only that. What they were looking at was other methods and I believe it was correct me if I'm wrong it could be UV lighting that they were utilizing in order to kill off species inside the waters as well, to try and change an impact.
Speaker 3:Because, quite frankly, when you look at the impact and I know zebra mussels was when we talked about when I did the research for that private member's bill. Ontario Hydro and the nuclear plants was one that I talked to who were spending tens of millions of dollars just to clean off the zebra mussels from their water pipes in order to be able to provide the cool water for the cooling process in a lot of the nuclear processes that people had no idea was even there. And on top of that I recall as minister, when I was minister of natural resources, they wanted to shut down the walleye fishery in Quinte because their counts were so low it had reached a minimum tonnage and I had some discussions with the senior staff or administrators in the Ministry of Natural Resources and I said look, this is what we're going to do. I did some research on my own and I contacted all the commercial fishermen in the area, along with the recreational fishermen, the tourism fishermen in the municipalities, and my research indicated that zebra mussels had actually changed the configuration of water where the animals were feeding. So zebra mussels would eat the small plankton in the area that the small minnows would feed on and up through the system where the walleye would feed on. But now the water clarity was so well that the walleye had moved out of those areas and that we're now in other areas. However, in order to have a baseline, the ministry had consistent sites where they did their counts for the walleye populations but the walleye had moved, but they hadn't moved any of the testing sites where they actually did their counts, any of the testing sites where they actually did their counts.
Speaker 3:And I recall a senior ADM in the ministry coming in and yelling at me that you'll be known as the minister responsible for losing the walleye fishery in Quinte and that'll be your legacy, and on and on and on. And I told him I said no, this is what we're going to do. We're going to work with the. When our count boats go out, they're going to include the commercial fishermen, the tournament recreational fishermen and I gave them some names because there's a lot of fishermen but there's a lot of competent individuals, have a lot of expertise, such as yourself, who enjoy fishing. We included those in the municipality and the count boats and we're going to try some other locations.
Speaker 3:And they yelled and got all upset about the change, that I wasn't shutting it down. Well, after they did their first council, the same assistant deputy members, adms that came in to me, the assistant deputy ministers, and they said, minister, how did you know? How did you know? And I said, well, the environment's changed in there and the zebra mussels had a big impact and it's changed the way the ecosystem's out there. But the ministry is not changing with the new ways that they're doing these research and we need to do that to keep up with the times when things like this happen.
Speaker 3:So there's a lot of things that have taken place, whether it's the tens of millions of dollars that places like Ontario Hydro and the nuke plants are used just to clean off the pipes, or whether it's the fisheries that are out there, the commercial fisheries or the recreational fisheries, which bring and generate huge amounts of finances for municipalities when they hold a tournament, you get your boats coming in, you get your people staying over in the hotels, you get to buying the gas there and maintenance and all the other things that go along with it.
Speaker 3:It's a revenue generator, but we need to look outside the box. So, anyways, needless to say, the private members bill that I brought in stimulated a lot of interest in the states when I presented to their committees, and a lot of the organizations who deal with this that came forward and did presentations because it was very interesting and a way to try and address the issue. But when you have to, things are happening and everybody's talking cheap. Sometimes you have to use a heavy hand like saying, okay, when it can be identified where it came from and how it happened, those are the ones responsible for the cleanup, which would be potentially millions or hundreds of millions of dollars in certain cases. But we try to do what we can. But so you're saying that the feds are doing a good job in now coming forward with some legislative changes that'll address a lot of those issues.
Speaker 4:Yeah, some of those key pathways. It's nice to see in the last few years or maybe even decade, honestly just some new regs coming online to help us shut down some of those pathways as best we reasonably can. And you know good work happening on the provincial level too. For example, I guess it was about two years ago, Ontario started to regulate boaters as a pathway as well for invasive species. So that would you know, start to, like, I say, turn off the taps, maybe on the movement of things like zebra mussels or the next zebra mussels really, and that's you know. So when we pull out our boat and we're trailering it at the end of the weekend or maybe at the end of the season, we pull out a boat out of an Ontario lake. Now, because of those regulations, it is required by law to do the simple things like pulling the drain plug, making sure there's no aquatic plants hanging off the back of the trailer. Ultimately, there's small steps that help protect the environment. They protect your investment too. So it is a common sense opportunity here. So, thankfully, we see a little bit of work happening on the provincial side of things, a little bit of work happening on the federal side of things. Hopefully we can start to learn some more lessons on new species and new pathways as they emerge and hopefully try and turn off the taps on new introduction sources because, as you point out, they can just be so unbelievably costly.
Speaker 4:Like, Water Soldier is an aquatic plant in Ontario that's now regulated and prevented for sale, but it's a really, really interesting aquatic plant example of a really niche species that was sold at only a couple aquatic plant nurseries in Ontario. You know, not a big driver behind commerce and no one was making their living off of water soldier plants and unfortunately it has now escaped into the natural environment. It's been found in a couple water bodies within Ontario and those cleanup projects have been unbelievably costly, is an important driver behind Ontario's freshwater economy as well, and Water Soldier is very much an enemy to anybody who wants to boat through or swim through a nice fresh lake, and so you know these things become very, very costly. But ultimately, you know we have a lot of power in terms of introducing a new species and the costs can be staggering, Like in Ontario's economy.
Speaker 4:Not how much we're spending, but how much are they costing us in terms of lost productivity and other features right 3.6 billion dollars annually in terms of agricultural losses, in terms of replacing those emerald ash borer trees, so the costs are staggering when you add all of these species together. So you know one small species that's being bought and sold, and again, if no one's making their living off of it like a water soldier, you know. Thankfully it's regulated now so we're not seeing anybody buy it or sell it or trade it commercially, thankfully. But you know there's a lot of small examples of individual species like that that aren't contributors to Ontario's economy but have the potential to be extremely costly. So nice to see action happening on those species, New species being added to federal and provincial regulations every year, Just as a response towards looking a little bit more forward here and figuring out what is the next thermal dashboard, what are the next zebra mussels and how can we prevent those from establishing and costing us ecologically and economically as much as their colleagues have other species have.
Speaker 3:So, colin, I think was it the round goby that they were able to identify the one ship that brought them in, and I believe it was from somewhere in Scandinavia that it came in in the ballast water that ended up in. Where was it? Michigan when it first got here? Are you familiar with that or not?
Speaker 4:I don't know that story that it being traced back to a single vessel. That's an interesting one I have to look up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I believe it was around Gobi and it was came in and that was part of the discussions that I had in my private member's bill, which was 25 years ago or so. But anyways, yeah, it was very interesting that they were able to identify the one ship and where it came from and for some reason I believe it was a Gobi of Scandinavia that first got in here. But when we're dealing with things like zebra mussels and we talked about earthworms and things like that, what consumes zebra mussels or round gobies that would help? Which populations you would expect if they were? I think the lesser and the greater scalp duck seed zebra mussels from what I understand, but I can't confirm that. Maybe you can, or is there other populations that would consume them, of other species and the same with the Gobi that we should see increases in as a result of the overabundance of those invasive species?
Speaker 4:You know that's generally the issue with invasive species is they're no one's first choice for food. You know, because we haven't had these, you know, decades or thousands of years or eons of time where things can co-evolve together and kind of get used to each other and those predator prey dynamics can kind of create and present themselves. So usually when we see most invasive species move from one part of the planet to another part of the planet very far away, it's just that one species it's not its predators, it's not for plants, it's defoliators or sea predators and for aquatics it's the same, it's not those same predators. So when they move over usually sometimes they have those kind of novel traits that help them insulate themselves from predation or risk pretty nicely. And so usually it takes a long time for species, those communities in the new place that they're moving to, to adapt to them, to get used to them, to start to munch away on them. And so we do see definitely some small rates of predation on things like zebra mussels, but not at a level that would keep their populations manager in check, unfortunately. So we do see things like snapping turtles will eat. You know, generalist herbivores or predators generally would do okay by munching away on some zebra mussels or some other species, and we see the same thing happening with fish and a number of other species.
Speaker 4:Again, the challenge is no one's really thriving. These animals are just more or less surviving when new species introduced into a new ecosystem. So we don't really see anybody taking full advantage, and that's because it takes just so long for those ecological relationships to start to develop. So that's really the challenge is that we're not really introducing a good new food source, in a sense, for other species to do well on, and with plants in particular. What does that look like with more specificity? Well, sometimes plants will develop kind of certain chemical compounds that help them protect themselves from other predators, and usually what we see is other defoliating predators, things like beetles or anything that's going to be a herbivore and munch away on some leaves is they're not used to those compounds.
Speaker 4:So garlic mustard is a good example of a terrestrial plant that we see invading our forests in North America, and really it's quite rare if we walk up to a patch of garlic mustard and see anything nibbling away on it, it's because really our predators, our herbivores, haven't developed the necessary abilities and ability to process out some of those chemicals.
Speaker 4:So it's kind of just an interesting thing that's going to take some time. And that's the challenge with invasive species is that you know a single new species introduction to an environment, you know, if we put on our you know thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of years, thinking in terms of timescale, you know a new species introduction no big deal. That happens. That's how communities shape and shift and change over time. The challenge with invasive species is we're introducing dozens, hundreds, even thousands of species at an incredibly tight timescale. And that's ultimately the challenge that we're doing by introducing large volumes of new species into our ecosystems in such a short amount of time is we're introducing too many new sources of stressors that would kind of in combination, overwhelm the biodiverse habitats we've got.
Speaker 3:Right, so what can you tell us about this? Some of the other ones, such as you mentioned, the water soldier, you know what is it, how do you identify it and what does it do? Or what does the problems does it cause and what does it essentially, I don't know replacing in its environment when it comes in what's going out?
Speaker 4:Yeah, water soldier is an interesting one. Thankfully it's quite easy to identify with a lot of aquatic invasive species and aquatic plants. For sure it's hard because they're kind of just hanging out under the surface and it's hard for us to pick up and understand their true distribution and abundance. Water soldier is a little different. It looks very unique. It looks like the top of a pineapple or, if you're familiar with, aloe vera, with a slightly serrated edge. That's what it looks like, and it actually floats up mid-summerummer, late summer, floats up to the top of the water surface and kind of emerges out, not as tall as a cattail, but you can easily see it as you're cruising along in a boat or paddling along in a canoe and you know what does it do? It out competes any other species. It's actually, um, kind of a species at risk, so to speak, in in europe, in england, where it's like a regulated species, uh, and in here in ontario and in north america.
Speaker 4:It is invasive. We would love to get rid of it and the challenges it poses here in terms of ontario and in the great lakes regions, freshwater environments. It out competes other species. It actually starts to form really dense monocultures that, um, you can't quite walk on, but honestly, you could probably float acrossocultures that you can't quite walk on, but honestly you could probably float across. You can't get your boat through them and ultimately it's a clonal plant.
Speaker 4:So it doesn't take very many individuals to start to very quickly, rapidly reproduce and crowd out what used to be a nice, accessible beachfront or waterfront or boat launch or other kind of culturally important space. Doesn't take long for it to outcompete anything else that's there and turn into nothing but a water soldier mat. Um, you know, in terms of the human dynamic it's quite problematic. We'd love to not have it there. But in terms of the ecological dynamic too, those are. Those are, you know, wetlands, those kind of just into the littoral zone or right at the edge of the water where light is still well penetrating down to the bottom. Those are really important fish habitat areas as well, of course, right. So one of the big challenges too is that it's really shifting what that habitat structure looks like and generally it's not very good news for most of the fish species that would use that.
Speaker 3:So what are some of the other aquatic plants or invasive species, animals, and that people would normally come across or that are just starting to to come across or have been here for a while? We mentioned, you know, the goby, the zebra mussels well, of course there's a loose strife which is not an aquatic plant but found in a lot of wetland areas. But what other kinds of plants or animals can you enlighten us on?
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's all kinds of aquatic plants. It's interesting you bring up the purple loose strife one because I think you know scientists can be poor communicators at times and they're the first to raise their hand. So I think it's reasonable for me to point them out in that way. And it's interesting because we talk about purple loosestrife and it doesn't get the credit it deserves, I think, as a really good poster child for what good and responsive invasive species management can look like. And you know we see purple loosestrife it's still in Ontario's wetlands and ditches and roadside wet environments but we don't see it nearly at the same abundance and that's because of a really important management program that's happened probably under your time as well, but Project Purple and biological control agents that were host specific. So back to that targeted you know, eat this plant or die choice that they've been studied under and proven to make. And we still that's one of the big drivers behind purple loosestrife decline. So I always like to weave that in because I think it's an undertold story. The purple loosestrife we see today is at a much, much lower abundance and that's, generally speaking, because of an invasive species win. We've introduced that level of competition and again in the host-specific fashion and got rid of a large volume of purple loosestrife across Ontario, and our wetlands are able to coexist with that species because of it.
Speaker 4:But in terms of other species on the rise, you know the good, notable ones. I think we've got a number of species Asian carp or invasive carp. That's a group of four species very problematic. All kinds of amazing YouTube videos on those. We't have the, the um, the big ones in ontario's fresh waters yet. So if you, if any of your listeners, are gonna uh, go down a youtube rabbit hole, you might check out some of the silver um, silver carp videos and you'll see those are the species that. Those are the carps that jump out of the water and land in people's boats. They're not great lakes yet, but they're really, really close. They're just south of chicago, so they're knocking on our great lakes door and an absolutely high priority species because our great lakes fishery is worth seven billion dollars a year, you know. Forget about that's just the fishery alone. Forget about the property values and the and the beautiful tourism revenue that helps us generate regionally as well, and you know asian carp are a real and notable threat to that. So that would be the big group of species I'd put on people's radar is the silver carp and other Asian carp species, and there's a number of other plants on our radar too. Hydrilla is a big one. We don't have that in Ontario just yet, but it's very, very close. It's just on the other side of a shared waterway between New York State and Ontario, so it's another one we're watching for.
Speaker 4:But again, some of those aquatic species are really tricky they're. They're kind of lurking around under the water. So it's important for people. You know a good call to action for people to have in mind. If you see a species, there's some great, free, publicly available resources out there. Inaturalist is a great reporting one for any of your birders They'd know all about iNaturalist. Edmaps is another great one.
Speaker 4:There's a number of publicly available reporting tools and so people, yeah, if they think they see an invasive species when they're out in the forest, in the water, anywhere this summer, snap a picture, send it in.
Speaker 4:Sometimes they're widely established ones, but sometimes they're new species, and those new species reports really, really help us mobilize responses to the highest priority species that we can. So if there's only one population of something, if we could go in the wayback machine here and and go back maybe 20 years or 15 years for water soldier and find that first plant or that first patch or that first lake. You know that's a really helpful thing and we've actually seen that nice story play out with a number of species in Ontario where just a paddler sees something it looks a little weird and wonky, they send in a picture and we've actually been able to eradicate a number of species because of that. So you know there's a lot of eyes out there. There's a lot of power in our ability to collectively be out there and look for new things, things that are a little bit strange. I've never seen that plant before. You know, reports from the public like that can really go a long way in helping protect our environment and economy from invasive species.
Speaker 3:That's great to hear, colin, but for some reason I thought that last month in Belleville the feds now we're the Outdoor Journal Podcast Network with Angelo and Pete in Belleville announced they did an announcement that the Asian carp was actually found in Ontario, ontario waters. I believe that took place last month, that they made that announcement. But I could be wrong and I'd be happy to be wrong. But I thought that's the announcement that Angelo with Outdoor Journal Radio podcast, the leading podcast in our network, was at in Belleville with Oceans and Fisheries last month making that announcement. But I could be wrong.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that's a grass carp. So there's those four species. The jumping ones are the really, I mean, they're all problematic in their own ways. Grass carp? Um, yeah now, yeah, so there was an announcement not too long ago just a couple weeks back actually. Um, some current information, there's only a few individuals that were found of those grass carps, thankfully, but definitely high priority species. There's lots of monitoring happening, from edna up to electrofishing and everything in between. And, yeah, really important. You know, actually one of the most recent reports came from an angler out flying his drone and doing a little bit of a fishing video, and that's how that report came in. So again kind of speaks back to how important it is. If you see something that looks a little bit strange, even if it ends up just being, I don't know, a bass, no problem, submit that report. It really helps us get the message out and ultimately, be quicker to respond.
Speaker 3:Well, colin. So what else can people, the public, do at large? I know myself, when I'm out walking my now skunk-sprayed dog, I'm constantly when I go through. I go through a trail, we're getting overrun with strangling dog vine and I'm pulling the strangling dog vine in order to reduce the expansion of that particular species. But what can people do as a public at large in order to try and reduce the potential impacts of invasive species? You mentioned about identification. If they find some stuff, where do they send that information? What else can the public do at large?
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's a few good tools. I mean all of it we try and outline on our website. So if there's one place to send people, it's invasivespeciescenterca Center, because we're from Canada, we spell it C-E-N-T-R-E, so that's invasivespeciescenter with an R-ca, uh, and there you'll find links to things like iNaturalist, that public reporting website, edmaps, e-t-t-m-a-p-s, which is a similar online reporting tool where you can submit a photo and say I think I found, uh, uh, you know, european water, chestnut water, soldiers, whatever, uh, and and that can somebody on the other end can verify that. So that's a really helpful thing is those public reports as a first step.
Speaker 4:Another thing, if you're you know you've entered the door of invasive species and you're looking to tackle a little bit of local stewardship action, we actually have a granting program that it's called the Invasive Species Action Fund. It's targeted to Ontario only for right now, but it's a really important kind of first step in terms of small amounts of money that can help local friends of associations, green groups, municipalities, first Nations, communities, conservation areas, everybody in between who wants to do some invasive species management activities on their lands. The province has sponsored us to run this granting program, which is a really helpful source of, you know, small and modest amounts of funding that help projects happen. So if you're interested and you're from Ontario, that would be a great example of an opportunity. And I think, if you're looking for really high level, little bits and pieces, just being aware of those pathways for invasive species spread Horticulture and contaminated fill or moving plant material or compost that can be a really important pathway for invasive species spread.
Speaker 4:Same too can contaminated firewood or just firewood generally, and so just being aware of those as important pathways and taking small and simple steps to kind of prevent what we're moving and how far and fast we're moving, it can really be helpful at helping reduce the rate of spread and also stop introducing new species to ecosystems, be it in Ontario, north America or globally too. So really important small steps people can take there. Just being aware of those key pathways for how we move things around ultimately save our environment and save our economy lots of money. So, yeah, just little, tiny, little steps like that.
Speaker 3:But again, check it out on our website we try and outline uh, all of that and everything more on invasive species centerca well, as I've said in earlier on this week, colin, I did some lectures at um millbrook, south calvin public school and I've always said in the past that if you teach a student, you teach a singular.
Speaker 3:If you teach a teacher, you teach the many. So when programs like this get out, I'm going to pass on the information about some potential opportunities, because some of the things that I did in my lecture was they have a nature walk and a forest on the school property. We showed them gypsy moth eggs and all those sorts of things that there may be things that the teachers could learn to teach the kids, and once we teach those teachers, we'll be teaching them on how to look out for a number of things out there. But, colin, how can people get in touch with you or where else? You mentioned some websites and some information and how can they kind of reach out to you and find out more details or get more information about all the things that we're talking about?
Speaker 4:Oh, we're on all the socials. Check us out Facebook X, instagram, tiktok, all the usual places. Invasive Species Centre and if you're an email type, want to send us a note? Happy to direct to the right point of contact. Our general email address is info at invasive species center dot ca. And we'd love to help you out, wherever you're from Ontario, canada, north America or beyond, help put you in contact with the right people, the right resources. So check us out.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks very much, colin. We very much appreciate you taking the time, and we got into a lot more than just the aquatic areas, which I believe hopefully in the future we'll be a lot more than just the aquatic areas, which I believe hopefully in the future we'll be able to talk with some yourself or other individuals about things such as something I happened to dispatch a couple weeks ago the giant Asian hornet. We had a couple of those and those things are huge, along with a bunch of other insects that are out there as well. Anyways, thanks, colin for taking the time to be on our podcast. We very much appreciate it, and I think a lot of people learned about other things that are found under the canopy and how to make sure the right things and not invasive species are out there in our forests and fields and waterways. Thanks, colin, for taking the time to be there.
Speaker 4:My pleasure, thank you.
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