The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E30: Navigating Guilt & Shame After Miscarriage (ft. Chanel Wainscott)
Welcome to episode 30!
How do men really feel after a miscarriage, and why do their stories often go unheard? In this episode of the Miscarriage Dads Podcast, I am joined by Chanel Wainscott, a psychotherapist specializing in perinatal mental health, to unravel these complex emotions. Chanel's journey into this field is deeply personal, sparked by her own postpartum challenges that led her to wonder about her husband's silent struggles. Together, we emphasize the critical importance of acknowledging men's emotional responses to miscarriage to foster healing and connection within families.
Men often face profound guilt, sadness, and fear after a miscarriage, but these feelings are frequently overshadowed by societal expectations of traditional masculinity. Chanel and I dissect the multifaceted emotional landscape men navigate, highlighting the importance of nonjudgmental observation and validation. We explore practical steps for men to reorient themselves mentally, such as mindful observation and practicing non-judgmental awareness, and discuss how sharing their stories can counteract the isolating effects of shame.
Balancing personal grief while supporting a partner is a delicate act. In our conversation, we address how men can manage their guilt and privilege, the struggle of engaging in self-care, and the necessity of open communication and self-compassion.
This episode is a tribute to the enduring impact of loss and the journey towards emotional healing and connection.
Sincerely,
Kelly
Instagram: @themiscarriagedad
Email: themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
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Who is Chanel Wainscott?
Chanel Wainscott is a licensed psychotherapist (Qualifying) in Ontario, Canada, specializing in perinatal mental health, with a particular focus on supporting postpartum fathers. She is passionate about validating and sharing the stories of postpartum fathers, advocating for their needs with confidence, and ensuring their voices are heard. Combining expertise in Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and Interpersonal Psychotherapy (IPT), Chanel helps new parents navigate the challenges of postpartum life, including mood and anxiety disorders. Chanel is also committed to gaining more knowledge and developing compassionate, practical skills to support men who have experienced miscarriage. Additionally, Chanel collaborates with postpartum doulas to offer psychotherapy services that emphasize the mental well-being of both mothers and fathers during this critical period.
Instagram: @carecultivator
Web: www.carecultivator.ca
Email: info@carecultivator.ca
So shame is an emotion, a physiological response to doing something or acting like acting in a way that goes against the societal norms that we might have, and for guilt that is a response that's there when you do something that goes against your moral code or like violates your values. So that lets you know like that that's not sitting well with me and you know what do I have to do to repair to again, you know, be a part and be connected to the people around us.
Speaker 3:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast. This is the Miscarriage Dads Podcast the podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers, thank you for tuning into another episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I am delighted to be joined by someone who, in all honesty, I have been waiting for this date to come to have this conversation, so I'm going to ask my guest to please introduce herself.
Speaker 1:Hi, my name is Chanel Wayne Scott. I am a psychotherapist practicing in Ontario, Canada. I am a psychotherapist practicing in Ontario, Canada.
Speaker 3:I've been working in the social service field for eight years in different avenues, practicing psychotherapy for the past three years and specializing in perinatal mental health. For people who may not necessarily know what perinatal mental health is, can you give us a condensed form of what that is?
Speaker 1:So the perinatal period is pretty much, from you know, conception or even the idea of like starting to plan a family, up to like the first year, two years, pretty much three years, we'll say about year of postpartum life. So that period of going through fertility, pregnancy, birth and that postpartum stage entails the perinatal period.
Speaker 3:And some people might hear postpartum and the initial thing that they connect to is postpartum depression. But you're using postpartum literally, in the literal sense of the word life after giving birth, postpartum and so I guess we're just going to jump right into our conversation, because I think it becomes obvious for people why you and I are now going to. You know why we're meeting and why we're having this conversation, because the whole thing about thinking about starting a family many people go into that with the underlying assumption that if you're healthy as a woman and I'm healthy as a man and we really have no exposure to anything else, it's just bam, bang, shebang and nine months later we're welcoming a baby into our home and into our lives. But that's not necessarily always the case and as of the case of this podcast and the reason why this podcast exists is because of the frequency of a miscarriage that can take place, and usually takes place between or before the first what? 12 weeks or so, I think that's the statistic.
Speaker 3:So when that happens, whatever that initial expectation that the couple had was, all of that just falls into a million and one pieces and it leaves both the male and the female involved in that relationship feeling all sorts of ways. So, more specifically, what you and I, what I've invited you to talk to us about today, is focus on the topic of shame and guilt following a loss, to miscarriage, as it pertains to my experience as a man who is with a woman who is miscarrying. So long-winded introduction to that. But in your practice, just to kind of get us going in your practice, how often have you encountered men who fit that bill that we just described?
Speaker 1:So for men who actually sit face-to face, one-on-one with me, to share that experience. I have yet to experience that yet and just like so, I'll kind of share how I got into this focus in the first place of perinatal mental health. And, you know, as a therapist, pregnant and going into it like I thought, like I'd have a good I don't know grasp of you know, caring for myself, my well-being, knowing where I'm at once I was in that postpartum period, um, and the decline in my mental health and the way that it hit me and how scary it was and like the shame, all these things that added up to there, like that caught me off off guard and I'm like, if I'm caught off guard, like think about all the other people who don't maybe have that introspection. So then that led me to specializing and learning more about perinatal mental health and in that moment I learned about paternal postpartum, you know, know, mental health and just paternal perinatal, uh, the nuances in general. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, like there's a story that my husband is just sitting on and it's no duh, it's no wonder we're going through it, he's going through these things.
Speaker 1:And then that made me think about, you know the perinatal story of my father, my uncle, my brothers and I'm like these are things that need to be told. And then it gets deeper because, okay, like living, living infant right in the perinatal period with fathers like that, it's taboo in that sense. But then the father who experienced a miscarriage that is so marginalized in a story untold so for the case of me, for it might be like women who have come in and you know, my husband said I should talk to somebody about this, right? So I really thank you for inviting me on here so we can have these conversations and keep spreading it so that it is more commonplace for fathers who experience the loss to come into this space and find healing in this way.
Speaker 3:Man. Thank you so much for providing that context. One thing that I want to comment on is the aha moment that you had once you started digging into, you know what your experience was and then realizing wait a minute, my husband, my father, my brother, so many other men whose stories are not told and I know it was recent for me, and by recent I mean like the last four years. So we're just commenting before we started our conversation. We both have children literally around the same age, and it was somewhere close to like three years ago that I discovered that men can also experience postpartum depressive episodes. So that I mean that's something that's just not, it's obvious, and then it's also obviously not obvious. You that I mean that's something that's just not, it's obvious, and then it's also obviously not obvious. You know what I mean. So.
Speaker 3:So that's something that we could definitely talk about. So you just set yourself up for, you know, a different conversation at a later time. But let's peel, let's begin to peel the layers of what the experience, what the story of the man who's, who is experiencing or who's being impacted by this miscarriage, like what is that story that he is carrying in terms of guilt and shame? So you mentioned that you were dealing with part of that yourself. Can you give us a little bit of your story in light of that?
Speaker 1:So it started with, you know, maybe like vigilance and ensuring that my son is okay and I'm feeding him at the right times, and then came in the intrusive thoughts about him being harmed X, y and Z which is very common Doesn't mean it's not scary, but it is a common story for moms going through postpartum. But comes the shame of like why am I thinking about this? And there's so many different ways he can get hurt and I'll never be able to protect him. And then what am I going to do? Because, like, when I'm gone, like all these like just thoughts and like feeling that burden of like not being enough and the distress of that kind of led to that shame of like. Who am I gonna tell that?
Speaker 1:Like, what are what? There was just there? Just it just felt like a burden that was placed on me and I'm to blame and I was kind of alone in it, right, but um, it's in recognizing that you know this deep shame like anxiety and rage. A lot of the times they are secondary emotions to like, the primary emotions that we all feel as humans, but it's the negative consequence or evaluation we have on what we initially felt, where like shame can get pretty heavy, and so that's something to explore. I don't know, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so let's, let's talk about that. So what are some of the primary emotions that people typically feel?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's like you know love, anger, sadness, shame and guilt like they do have their place right, but those ones are tricky. What we can get into that like disgust, fear I don't have to say fear yet, but all of these things are or emotions. They're like physiological responses that are automatic and they're there to communicate to us that there is something that we need to pay attention to in our environment, that we might need to change or respond to so that we can adapt and move forward.
Speaker 3:So they're there for a reason. This is like one of those things that's pretty obvious, and then it's obviously not obvious, which is men who find themselves now experiencing this loss. We're not sure what to feel, how to feel it and why is it that we're even feeling it? And I think on the other side of that, like if I'm looking at that, you know, head on it's almost like a discovery of wow, I actually have emotions as a man, and and that can be, I mean, that's like a big realization already in and of itself. If that's the case, happening at that moment makes it even more unmanageable, because this is a heck of an experience to finally discover that I have, you know, these, these emotions, and so it can be really difficult to to navigate that. So how, let's? Let's first set a working definition of what shame is or guilt is. How would you describe that?
Speaker 1:So shame is an emotion, a physiological response to doing something or acting like acting in a way that goes against the societal norms that we might have and if made aware to the public, it would lead to rejection or being ostracized by the society that we're in so very adaptive. When you do something that is actually shameful and it helps you, you know the urge the action is to, you know, not do that or to apologize, and then that fix your standings in whatever group you're in. Right, that's when it's warranted or like fits the facts and for guilt, that is a response that's there. When you do something that goes against your moral code or like violates your values, so that lets you know like that that's not sitting well with me and you know what do I have to do to repair to again. You know, be a part and be connected to the people around us. So those are two ways. Uh, we naturally respond to those scenarios with guilt and shame throughout.
Speaker 3:You know evolution. I'm going to speak to the guilt aspect first, how much shame I was feeling at the time, because I don't think I've leaned in too much to my story to discover how much shame I was feeling and experiencing, but definitely the guilt portion after my wife's third well, no, second miscarriage. So she experienced a total of five and one of them was just weird, so we barely even count that one because she took a pregnancy test and then she was pregnant, but then when she went to get confirmed, there was nothing and people were like, why are you even here? So we don't know what happened to that one. But the other four were definite, Like she was pregnant, we went, there was a heartbeat and then there wasn't. Like we, we went through that process.
Speaker 3:So after the second miscarriage the guilt started to settle in for me, because after the first one I was not the way that I related to her, the way that and I've spoken about this before the way that I did not, that this pregnancy was going to be a viable one and we were going to put all this miscarriage stuff behind us and what have you.
Speaker 3:And so here we are again, and now I had that aha moment of, oh my God, this hurts, this is horrible, and I'm seeing myself objectively, in comparison to you know, going through this the first time, in comparison to my wife, who's feeling this again a second time, enter guilt. How could you be so blind, cal? How could you? How could you, how could you, how could you? It's like, like you said, I violated some deeper value that I had. You know, like at that moment it's like my marital vows. I just took them and then just like threw them away because I did not protect my wife in sickness and in health, for better or worse, that kind of stuff, so that guilt really settled in. If I had come to you at that time and said, hey, this is like, this is where I'm at, how would you have spoken to me to help me work through that guilt?
Speaker 1:It's just, like you know, bringing it to the table without judgment. Let's just look at the picture here. Let's look at the event that happened, you know, describing the who, what, when, where of the matter the miscarriage and then also taking a look at the emotions that you felt, describing them, putting a name to them and then also recognizing the thoughts that you felt as well, because your thoughts are different from your emotions, are different from the events that happened. But ultimately, it's recognizing your interpretation of the emotions that you felt, your interpretation of what those thoughts mean about you. And again, it's that interpretation of, okay, like I, I wasn't there to emotionally support my wife. That's what happened. I felt guilty. Some thoughts I might've had was like, maybe like I'm a failure or like I don't deserve to. You know, feel how I'm feeling now because of, you know, the ball that I dropped in the past, Right.
Speaker 3:It's as if you're reading my mind. That's exactly what it was. Mm, hmm. That? That's exactly what it was like. Who gives you the right now to be sad, to feel hurt? Because look back, bro. Just a couple of months ago, man, you were. You were not even attuned to what she was going through, and now this is her second time. This is your first time realizing what this all is. So what the heck, my guy, why are you? Even I almost felt like I was, like I was some form of imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1:Like you're not deserving of this experience because you're kind of like second rate to a second class, to the hurt that you missed out on, you didn't see in the first part and you know you're continuing to describe like that's, that's, that's perfect there. I also heard you mention sadness and fear that I think are here, or at least sadness.
Speaker 3:Definitely sadness.
Speaker 1:Sadness, right. So there are a few things there. So, like, when you let's look at the guilt, then, so is it fitting the facts of you going against your values by not being there to emotionally support your wife at the beginning? Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And what are we going to do now? Like repair, right, have these conversations right, so that guilt in that way can be effective. When you look at, okay, well, what am I going to do differently? Right, bam?
Speaker 1:But it turns into distress when you then add, like, the layers of interpreting is to hide, to isolate, to be alone in that experience. And that's when guilt because guilt can be helpful, because it tells you something was missed. But it's your interpretation of that guilt that can get you. Now, your sadness that you mentioned, that does fit the facts. It's valid because sadness occurs when there is something that is lost, an expectation that did not happen. You experienced the loss in this expectation to be a father with a living child did not come through. Now let's focus on your interpretation of that sadness. Yes, this is an emotion I deserve. This is I just need to just be a man about it, like that's. That's ridiculous. I don't even understand why I'm feeling that way. I need to. It's all in the judgment you place on your emotions that make them that much more distressing.
Speaker 1:so we're going to kind of push them away or pull them, keep like it's just just practicing a nonjudgmental observation of your feelings and then seeing if they fit the facts they do. That's valid. That's yours.
Speaker 3:One of the words that you kept repeating is interpretation, interpretation, interpretation, and so I want to hone in on that, because, if I'm picking up where you're putting down, what you're saying is so the event happened and there is a response that I have to that event. There is the way that I see myself within that event, responding to it in a variety of different ways, variety of different ways, and there is then the like, a set of values.
Speaker 3:If you will or a set of of, um, not values, a set of beliefs Okay, yes, a set of beliefs that then that I put on the way that I was responding to that situation. That then informs that I used to inform and and or allow that to, to feed back to me some information that I take to either say that was a good thing or that was a bad thing.
Speaker 3:And the way, then, that it most likely plays out as it played out in my case is the beliefs that I used to evaluate my actions, or my response to that loss led me to a place of convincing myself that I was not deserving of whatever emotions that I was feeling, that I was not deserving of any kind of empathy or sympathy, even that, you know, it's good for me that that was happening to me at that time, because, man, I was so horrible to my wife before and by doing that I was adding more distress to what's an already distressful or distressing situation.
Speaker 1:Beautifully reflected. Yes.
Speaker 3:So what I want to highlight from that is that guilt is not the problem, right Like guilt is not. As a man who experiences guilt as a result of loss to miscarriage, my initial response shouldn't well forget, shouldn't, if I feel guilty. If I feel guilty, I don't necessarily have to look at that guilt and run away from it or hide it or pretend like it's not there. I can own that guilt.
Speaker 1:You could own it. And when you're owning it, you can then sit and reflect and recognize is this effective for me? Is this effective in, you know, maintaining a connection with others in my life? What am I going to do with it? Is it something that needs an action after, or is it something simply that can just be in past, like a cloud in the sky, because our emotions are here and there?
Speaker 3:So I also want to recognize that we're talking about this now and for me personally I am removed from my experiences and we're we're definitely talking about this in a clinical sense. It can be very difficult for someone who is going through that experience, and they're in the thick of it, to consider things in the light that we are painting it right. So, and the likelihood of someone hearing this conversation before they've experienced a miscarriage is low. I think the likelihood of someone hearing it after they've experienced a loss of miscarriage is much higher. But even then, what we're saying is you can still take a pause, recognizing what you're feeling in the moment and relating to it in a way that that, at least for me, up until now I didn't know was possible for me to relate to. Right, because that guilt did force me to isolate. That guilt did force me to respond in a way that was not necessarily constructive or beneficial. In a way that was not necessarily constructive or beneficial. It was definitely more self-harming, and I've mentioned on here before that my doing that.
Speaker 3:So later on down the line, that guilt just continued to intensify and the things that I was saying to myself about myself were very harsh. I mean really, really harsh. I got to a point where I felt like I was the one who was causing my wife to feel this pain, because here we are trying to have children and here we are unable to have children, and it can't be her fault, it cannot be, it has to be my fault. And a part of me was looking at that as like some noble act as a husband, as her husband, you know, protecting her, taking the blame on onto myself, which is something that we men love to do, right, like we. We, we want to be the heroes of the story. We want to shoulder all of the responsibility at the expense of like, we want to be the self-sacrifice whatever. I'm sure there's a technical term for that. We, you know, there's that Christ complex, and that's that's.
Speaker 3:Those were the things that I was saying to myself about myself. This is your fault, you're doing this to her, you're forcing her, even though I wasn't forcing her to do anything. We were both trying to have children, right, but in my mind I was the one forcing her. I'm the one who can't produce a healthy sperm. It has to be something with me. Maybe this is God's way of punishing me. Maybe this is so. All of this, would you say. All of this is guilt, talking, unresolved guilt, a relationship to guilt that could have been better but was not, and so it kind of led to all of that.
Speaker 1:You might've felt this primary, primary emotion of guilt that turned into the secondary emotion of shame. Because with like it being a blame, it being your fault, like you know, like if I were ever tell somebody like this was something that I've done, like if they knew I was the blame for this, like nobody would accept me, I'd be rejected, like I'd be embarrassed to share this. So that's when it turns into that like deeper shame. It can definitely start as that guilt but it depends on kind of like, where it lands there. But like what you, like what you're talking about, that rationalization like you're definitely not alone in using that as a way to cope due to the assumptions of traditional masculinity and how we assume men should cope.
Speaker 1:There was a systematic study about men who experienced miscarriages and some themes came up Were those gender assumptions of coping, deflecting, detaching, being stoic and rationalization right? And there are just different levels to that. So like rationalizing through, like you know, it was just a biological challenge that was out of my hands maybe. Like using faith in the way of like it just wasn't our time. Or you know, if only the doctor did x, y and z. But on the other end of that is like attributing that blame to yourself so you're not alone in that way of trying to cope, because that is a way that a belief or an assumption boys, men, had growing up as a way to deal with that emotion, deal with those emotions that kind of come up. So that was, yeah, one theme that did come up in this study of men who were experiencing miscarriage okay.
Speaker 3:So let's try to, let's try to synthesize then, at least for now, what are some actionable steps that a man who is feeling that guilt, what are some things that he can do, and I don't see it's also focused on doing. Let's try to put it into sort of a frame of mind what is the right frame of mind for a man to adopt who is going through this moment of wrestling with guilt? What are some things that he can do mentally to reorient his mind, to better process through that guilt?
Speaker 1:I would say, maybe just practicing mindful observation. And when we practice these observations, practicing it on a day where maybe the emotions aren't so heavy and it's a very benign day of like ticking off when a thought comes up, an emotion comes up, a bodily sensation comes up, and then envisioning it as a cloud passing in the sky. So it's not something you're holding onto, it's not something you're pushing away, but just non-judgmentally describing it. When you're describing something you're, you're only describing things that you can see with your senses, like experience with your senses, so not having an interpretation of it. So I had the thought of feeling like a failure. I had the emotion of being sad or feeling guilty. Don't do anything with it, just just note it. Right, I'm feeling tense in my stomach, I'm feeling sweaty in my palms.
Speaker 1:So just this practice of taking out the evaluation of your experience is something that can be helpful when you do find yourself in a space where you're like okay, you find you're kind of beating yourself up there, like it's, you know, recognizing you are feeling this experience there's. You know, either don't have to do anything with it or we'll do the opposite of what you're, what you're feeling. If you're feeling like it's getting in the way of connecting with others. So if you are feeling shameful, the opposite action of shame because the urge we have with shame is to hide, to avoid, to shrink the opposite action is what we're doing right now, and that is sharing your story with somebody in your circle. The opposite action of guilt is to stop criticizing yourself or beating yourself up, stop apologizing, so just doing the total opposite.
Speaker 1:Go do something that you enjoy doing, even if that urge to, like you know, beat down up on yourself or like punish yourself, is coming up like figure out how you can, you know, utilize the people around you to do the opposite of like hiding, which can be hard because of that pull to step away or not be a part of the group, but then also recognizing, like for this experience. If there were people to know that you've experienced the loss factually, are they going to reject you, are they going to shun you, because that is the fear that comes with shame. But if shame actually isn't warranted, that's not going to happen. So it's really taking a nonjudgmental stand back of your experience. Easier said than done.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a practice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, but I appreciate you framing it in that way, practicing in those days where it feels more manageable as you're going through this, because the reality is, even for me now, with two living children, there's still times where something relating to how, something relating to the losses still finds me in my day to day life.
Speaker 3:I mean, one of those things stays with me until today. To be very transparent with you again, before we hopped on here, we're chatting a little bit and we discovered that we both have two kids. We became parents basically in the same years, right 2000 and 2023 for me and I asked you, you know, do you have boys, girls? And then you say you had a boy and then, and then a girl. The moment you said I have a girl, the first thought that crossed my mind was yeah, cal, you're not going to be a girl dad, like you're not going to be the father to a girl, because one of the losses that we had was going to be my baby girl. So now that I'm not trying anymore my wife and I were not trying anymore Like that is a present reality that's in the background, in the foreground of the background, which is always I'm not going to ever father my own daughter.
Speaker 3:And that's something that that I carry with me, whether I want it or not. That's just. That's just what it is. So I like that you framed it in that way, which is, in the days that it doesn't feel as cumbersome, get in the habit of noticing and identifying, and I think that's just a good practice for life period Just noticing what you're feeling in the moment and deciding what to do with that, but not even always having to decide what to do with it. As much as the practice is, do you even notice what it is that you're feeling?
Speaker 1:And in that, you know, you mentioned the event that happened, that conversation, right, that prompted your experience. You mentioned a thought that you're framing as a feeling, so the thought of I'm never going to be a girl dad. Now, you can answer this here or reflect on it, but can you identify the emotions that you're feeling? And if there was more than one emotion, dad, the emotion of X, y and Z? And then when, recognizing the emotions, okay, so let's say, for example, I had the emotion of sadness.
Speaker 1:Depending on, like, your perception of your experience, you might even bypass the sadness right away, not even notice it, but feel shame because it's, you know, internalized. It's my fault, I'm never going to be, you know what I mean. So in those moments it can be helpful because that can kind of get away from you. It's like, okay, I felt that, but I'm also feeling sadness here. And is that sadness that I'm allowed to sit with? Yeah, if you determine it is not getting in the way of connecting with the people in your life, if you're determining that sadness isn't leading you to isolate from others, like it is effective to feel, like that's your experience, but like it's definitely a practice of breaking it down, because that shame comes when we just have like, when we think of our thoughts of like I'm a failure or I'm to blame, as like absolute truth In fact. Because if that's truth, in fact, there's no, there's no growth, there's no recovery from that. I'm the failure, right?
Speaker 3:So it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's the danger that a lot of us can fall into taking different perspective. If I'm not willing to entertain that perspective, then I'm just going to stay stuck there Like nothing else matters at that point, because I deeply believe and more so than believe, that has now become the prism through which I see the rest of reality that that's my fault, and it can be really difficult to take any kind of healthy steps moving forward to navigate all of that if that's the case. That being said, I do want to acknowledge how sometimes guilt and shame can be crippling and debilitating, and so having the energy, having the impetus to open up to someone may not be in that person's ability because of how heavy that guilt and shame is.
Speaker 3:And so we're obviously talking about, you know, the event of miscarriage as an isolated event, but we both know life is a lot more complex than that. Life be lifing all the time, and so you know people are going through a multiplicity of things all at once, so, layering a loss to miscarriage on top of other things that that person might be feeling guilty about, shameful about, and what have you, it can all get to a point of just debilitating and crippling guilt and shame. So in that case, what's the step forward? What is the reframe to sort of still get at to what we are saying right now? Like you can manage through this, but how can you do that when that wall of shame and guilt just seems so impenetrable?
Speaker 1:That is, that's tricky, that's challenging and you know, this loss doesn't exist in a vacuum and there are just so many fires to put out in different avenues of your life. And in going back to you know, like men being doers and stuff, like the urge of shame and guilt is to hide and to seclude and to just to shrink back like it's. You know, this practice of doing, just doing anything, can be something that can help build up that momentum to getting out of like a depressive experience. To do that it might seem like a lot because things are going on there, but it is really. That is very challenging.
Speaker 1:But particularly thinking about like postpartum fathers and like depression, like a big sign of depression, might be isolating and not doing the things that they enjoy, the opposite action to that is to do and that is something that can change your, I guess, the physiology of your emotional response to your environment. But when we're thinking about, I guess, everything kind of going on and experiencing this loss, huge change in our health, being given a resource to talk to other fathers about this experience of loss as well, but kind of like add to it as a ladder effect, so maybe going on like a Reddit subgroup or chat form for fathers who did experience loss. So there's very low vulnerability there, but you're still sharing, you're still doing, you're still being a part of something. So that is doing the opposite of that seclusion and isolation. Okay.
Speaker 1:And then the step forward would be, you know, maybe just like virtual support groups for fathers who have lost, or like you're pretty much still anonymous to these people, but you're still in a space where that those assumptions and those beliefs of feeling alone and excluded, because like you're this anomaly in society, because you've experienced this loss, that's, that's shrinking and then a step closer might be sharing it with your friend, you know, your partner, and then on a platform like this, you know what I mean. So it it can look very daunting, but it's just taking those small steps of doing the opposite, of like what the physiological response to shame leads, which is to hide, and it's just to do to be present. So figuring out how that works for an individual depends on their life story and the supports that they have around them and hopefully a competent healthcare provider, so so.
Speaker 3:Well, that last part is everything, isn't it? Yeah, that last part is everything. There is a guilt that can come with doing because here we are in a situation where I'm supposed to feel, or I'm supposed to be feeling, hurt, and again here we go with the suppose and the shoulds and all of that stuff, but that's the thought, right, like I'm hurt, I. Or to acknowledge that I have the privilege I'm going to use that word that I have the privilege of not knowing what a loss to miscarriage does physiologically. I don't know what that is, I'll never know what that is, and that is a privilege that I have as a man. So because I have that, it affords me the ability to go play golf with my buddies just to get my mind off of things, and that can be a great thing.
Speaker 3:But my wife, who had to have that DNC, like she still feels things in her physio that don't afford her the opportunity to get her mind off of things. So when my buddy calls me and is like, hey, man, you know my buddy, who I opened up to right Cause I took that first small step and then I got to that place of talking to him and he empathizes and stuff, and he's like okay, I know it would be great for you, we're going to go to Topgolf and just whack a couple of balls, bro, just come so you can get your mind off of things. At that moment I can feel a great level of distress and guilt because I can do this. This is something that would serve me well. But then now, what does that say about me and my lady and all of that? Can you speak to that a little bit?
Speaker 1:When you say, what can that say about me and my lady?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like, so I feel guilty, that I can do that but she can't. And so if I do, it can do that but she can't. And so if I do it, then, would she think, even if I have a conversation with her, right? So I'm I'm assuming that this is everything's going fine and dandy, hey babe, you know, my buddy just asked me to do this. Can you know, what do you feel? What do you think about it? And her response is no, I think this would be good for you. So she affirms that belief that it would be good for me. And yet I can still feel this like man. I feel guilty for even wanting to do something right, like, shouldn't I just be sitting in this heaviness and the sadness with her? So why, why, why can I? Why should I go and whack some balls with my buddy at Topgolf?
Speaker 1:I guess in that moment when you're reflecting on okay, like this is consensual, go ahead to like, care for myself. Right, let's look at the facts. I'm here to improve my mood, to spend time, to distract, to do something for myself. Emotions, feeling kind of guilty about it because why? And then the thought of, like I shouldn't be in this spot because I didn't physically experience this loss, I didn't like there, this isn't warranted. It's like, do you? Do you sit and acknowledge, like a thought of guilt had happened? Okay, let's get present. Um, we're on our second hole. I think that's what I don't know. Sure yeah.
Speaker 1:We're humans and these. We have a million thoughts a day. We have a bunch of different emotions and like, just because an emotion's there, it doesn't mean we always have to act on the emotion or really like break it down. But when you are recognizing like this emotion is taking away from your experience and it's really there and it's like really trying to tell you something and figuring out what other aspects it kind of goes into, you have to really sit and look and think is this actually going against my values? Like you know, care for self so that I can be there to care for my wife, and it can be reciprocal If it's not going against your values that you have with your family, like the actions or behaviors that you're doing, recognizing that you know like you're deserving of that care. And I'm just having a strong emotion right now and that's what it is.
Speaker 1:A lot of times we really want to like cling onto it or just like ignore it or push it away because it's too much or it shouldn't be there. But like this is just kind of how it is being human. You know it's too much or it shouldn't be there, but like this is just kind of how it is being human. You know it's, it's, it's a lot, it's sticky, especially with our prefrontal cortex and wanting to always think about things and having logic and rationality and all of that stuff right, but it comes down to, is what you're doing right now creating a disconnect or harm for you and your family? And if you and your wife had an agreeance that this is, this is what's best for the family, it's that practice of being present in your experience and not just saying I feel stupid like for even feeling this guilt, or I feel stupid that I'm even like feeling this happiness.
Speaker 1:So many myths we have about emotions and like that is the all end, all would be all of like what the experience is, but they're just like clouds passing in the sky, brainy clouds, clear clouds, like it's a thing and it's a feeling that will come up again and again and again. And every time we come up with it there's an avenue or an opportunity for us to reframe and have different meanings put towards it in different ways that we can be self-compassionate, you know, and reflect on. Okay, what's it telling me? You're always going to look at it in different ways. It's just practicing looking at it from a place of curiosity when it does pop up because it's trying to tell you something, but recognizing that it might not particularly be fact. If you have this negative consequence or evaluation of an emotion you're feeling because of what you were raised to, assume emotion should be as a man.
Speaker 3:You know, I appreciate what you said there towards the end Well, all of it, but especially what you said towards the end because, as you're talking, the thought that was crossing my mind is, even for a person like myself, who I think I'm pretty emotionally attuned and I have some level of emotional literacy, there is still that inner, deeper, more fundamental piece of it that and I realize this in the questions that I'm even asking you and the reasons why I'm asking these questions it's like it's scary.
Speaker 3:It's really scary, you know, and and being in being in this space of not knowing even how to fit in the narrative of what's going on around me because of this loss. It's something that I don't even know how to convey it. There is a level of emotional literacy that I think not even I think I am more compelled now to believe that is so beneficial and can serve as a real compass for helping men know how to navigate all of these complex emotions and situations and dynamics after they experience a loss. So I guess, to that point, how can someone continue to develop, if you will, their sense of emotional literacy? I know that's a big question, but there has to be like a, like a one, like like a first step. Right, just like, hey, how about try? How about considering this or trying that, or reading this book or checking out this blog? Like there gotta be something.
Speaker 3:And I say that because when, without throwing shade on my beautiful wife, but when I'm asking her to like, speak to me and express emotions, it's hard for her. And what I've noticed in the six years that we've been married is that she often names the same three or four emotions and doesn't go any further than that. So there are some people who I feel like and I think that's if I were to make a sweeping statement about men most men, I'm going to say, are kind of like that. You know, our default is like hey, what are you feeling?
Speaker 1:Yo man, I'm good, you know like, yeah, I feel sad, yeah, I'm excited, but it doesn't go further than that I'd say maybe google the emotional wheel, so it kind of like it starts in the center and it has like happy, sad, angry and stuff, and then it breaks out even more into further descriptive words and variations of each emotion. And then it breaks out even more and just you know, like maybe if you are feeling the same three like emotions, that you have exploring what the other words exist and like how it kind of fits, how it sounds like, looking into those definitions because there are so a lot of my life method of thought for emotions comes from something called dialectical behavioral therapy. Within that they have these sheets, that kind of break down each emotional like profile, like profile. So for anger they'll have like different descriptive words and then like events that typically prompt anger, like in individuals, um, and it lists out some of the assumptions that we have to that event that further you know, influences anger.
Speaker 1:And then it talks about the physiological changes you experience when you experience anger and then the actions you might take when you experience anger and like a list of what that looks like and then also like the after effects of when you experience anger, like how does that affect your memory or thought, like how you interact with the world. So, like, within that experience, it shows you that there are so many pieces to it. And, yeah, it can be helpful to notice like you might have different levels of that experience. So like, if you think of fear, like you know I don't know traditionally men shouldn't feel fear or whatnot, but there's so many levels of like that experience of fear that does fit the facts, like, yeah, it does fit the facts to be nervous about, like what the outcome of, like a test will be, or like x, y and z. So, yeah, maybe that can be a helpful way of just like recognizing that it's just more than just one experience or way to interpret that experience of anger. I'm not sure if that answered the question. No.
Speaker 3:I think that's a. I think that's a very good response to it. And also, I would add to that just practice using these emotions in a sentence throughout the day. You know what I mean. Just like as you're, as you're being mindful of what it is you're feeling and what emotion that's attached to, or even in a conversation with somebody, just practice using one of those words that you learned that day, because the other part of it is like I was mentioning earlier someone who's feeling guilt and shame and, like you said, the, the initial response is to hide and withhold and withdraw.
Speaker 3:It can be difficult for that man to open up to his female partner, who is asking him to open up and tell her how he's, how he's feeling and what have you and I've read so many posts on Facebook of guys who's like I just don't know how to express my feelings, and one of the suggestions that I give guys often is, if you don't know what to say in the moment, just communicate that with to her, and then you go off and either write it down, take your phone, do a voice memo and then just stream of consciousness, just talk, just talking to your phone, and then get all of that stuff out, which is in and of itself a mode of practicing, and then, once you get to a place of hearing or reading your own thoughts, then that can reflect back to you what it is you're thinking, and then that equips you to now go back and talk to her at a later time.
Speaker 3:Just don't leave her hanging, you know, but go back and talk to her and be like okay, this is at least what I'm able to share with you now about this right, about how I'm feeling. So there, there's all of those things. What do you think?
Speaker 1:That's beautiful wisdom. I think that is perfect meeting you know the man where they're at and recognizing that, like even for those who might feel like they know their emotional experience but they stay silenced because they feel like it doesn't matter, like if this expression of your emotion to your partner it's never going to well and I'm hoping, like in the most healthy reciprocal relationship is never going to be matched with, like I'm not trying to hear that, oh, like, give me more, give me more.
Speaker 3:So like I feel like that's amazing practice and you know getting comfortable with the idea of sharing your emotions that are seen put on the table for even me to start practicing Any last things you want to say about guilt and shame as it relates to a man's experience of loss, to miscarriage.
Speaker 1:I would say, for food for thought. So you know, when you were bringing up kind of like that guilt of, like you know, do I deserve to feel this? Because physically there hasn't been a change in me, there hasn't been physical harm to me. But I recommend that men recognize that when you are an expected father, you are actually going through hormonal changes. Like the moment you recognize, like, okay, I'm going to be a parent, especially if, like you and your partner are together within this.
Speaker 1:Estradiol drops, testosterone drops, all of these things that prime you to be an involved father. Like physiological changes in your brain. When it comes to, like planning that increases hormones that are responsible for, you know, hearing distress of babies crying so that you can be more equipped to be there to take care of your children, you're as incorporated in this hormonal experience as your partner. You are not having a physical gestational experience, but you are still part of that experience and so when you add your own hormonal changes, your psychological changes on all of these ideas, like you are as much a piece of that puzzle because things, the moment you recognize you are going to be a father, there have been physiological changes within your brain and within your endocrine system. So, like it's not like you're, you are a part of it. It's different but it's valid.
Speaker 1:So food for thought, because there's there's just so much going on and it's complex and it's your experience as well. So so, uh, for faith, like for one-on-one support with me, you'd have to be a resident of ontario, canada. If you are in ontario and you're listening, I can be contacted at info, at care cultivator, but then also you can if you're outside of it and you're interested in more food for thought in fatherhood, postpartum in general, you can follow my Instagram. It's at Care Cultivator.
Speaker 3:And I'll put those in the description and the show notes so that people can reach out to you. Show notes so that people can reach out to you, chanel. Thank you so, so, so much for the time that we spent in conversation. I really can't convey the depth of my gratitude for the work that you're doing and also for sharing a bit of your time to come on the podcast and have this chat with me. So, once again, thank you very, very, very much.
Speaker 1:I am so honored to be on this platform right now and so appreciative of the work that you do and the conversations that you've started. I'm grateful for that. Thank you, we'll be right back. Thank you you.
