Embracing Wholeness in Faith and Life: A Conversation with Tim and Aubrey Chaves

Join Dr. Randy Michaux on "Restore the Real" as he engages in a deeply introspective conversation with Tim and Aubrey Chaves, the insightful hosts of Faith Matters. This episode delves into the complexities of faith journeys, examining how challenges to personal beliefs can lead to profound spiritual growth and self-realization. Drawing on their experiences and the teachings of Eckhart Tolle, Tim and Aubrey explore the transformative power of acceptance, the importance of embracing one's emotions, and the journey towards understanding divine wholeness.

In this thought-provoking discussion, the Chaveses share their insights on the often misunderstood concept of spiritual tension and its role in personal development. They reveal how transitioning from fear-based perceptions to a stance of inherent wholeness can be both a challenging and liberating experience. This episode promises to resonate with anyone navigating the intricacies of faith, seeking deeper spiritual connections, or simply exploring life's profound questions. Tune in for an enlightening journey into the heart of faith, belief, and the path to inner peace.

Connect with Tim and Aubrey Chaves:

www.FaithMatters.org

Faith Matters Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/faith-matters/id1307757928

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

It's time for real discussions about health. Hi, I'm Dr Randy Michaud of Total Body Wellness Clinic, and each week on Restore the Real, I'll sit down with the guests to discuss how developing or overcoming health challenges has shaped the way that they live their lives, what they've learned, what they've changed and how they're moving forward. Restore the Real is a podcast that is unafraid and unapologetic when it comes to getting honest about the nuances of health and wellness Mind, body and spirit. All right, hello, hello. This is Dr Randy on Restore the Real, and today I am excited to have Tim and Aubrey Chavez on the podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:52

They are board members and podcast hosts on Faith Matters and if you haven't ever heard of that, I would check it out because it is such an amazing I'm going to say place. It's not just a podcast, but it's an amazing place where faith expansion happens. I really think that I've probably listened to every one of your podcasts over the past year and it's helped me so much in some ways understand the journey that my wife is taking right now and the challenges that she has, but it's also made me like dig in a little bit and really think of what I believe and what we're and just why things are important to me Anyway thanks, yuri, for being so kind words.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Randy, thank you so much. Yeah, Well, you're welcome.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Now I want to read a quote as we start, because, Aubrey, on a podcast that you did on I think it was the last they said it. At last she said it.

Speaker 3: 2:00

Oh, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Right, my wife has me listen to that because it helps me understand some things with her. So she's like, hey, listen to this please. You shared a quote by Eckhart Hol, and I think I want to start here because a lot of the people that I work with struggle with when I, when I tell them you just need to be stop doing and just be there, like well, I can't, I can't do that. That's, that's scary. And so you shared this quote from Eckhart Hol and I'm going to read the whole thing. I think you shared part of it, but I want to read the whole thing.

Speaker 1: 2:35

It says he says don't look for peace. Don't look for any other state than the one you're in now. Otherwise you'll set up inner conflict and unconscious resistance. Forgive yourself for not being at peace. The moment you completely accept your non peace, your non peace becomes transmuted into peace. Anything you fully accept, anything you fully wait, anything you accept fully will get you there. We'll take you into peace. This is the miracle of surrender. I'd love to start there and like what does that mean to you? Why was that quote like, yeah, why was that meaningful to you?

Speaker 3: 3:19

Well, it's so funny to hear the whole thing because it's been so long since I read that book, but that's just become such a part of our life that I forgot that. That's even how it sounded, because I I've learned that over and over again and I think that's kind of what faith crisis taught me that you know, in the beginning. So for us this happened maybe 12 years ago, really started 12 years ago, where it felt like the. It felt like our very solid beliefs started falling apart and my understanding then was that I couldn't have peace until I figured it out, until I really had certainty back. And at some point along the way I started thinking I would even have peace if my certainty was that the church wasn't true, like even if I came down on the side of of non belief. Even that kind of certainty would, would bring me peace, because I was just so desperate to get out of this middle limbo space where I wasn't sure. And so what Eckert totally really has taught me is that it there is, there is.

Speaker 3: 4:19

You always have access to peace when you can completely accept what's happening and and even accept it like you chose it, accept it with with so little resistance that that you, that it's like you chose to be here, and so, in the context of faith crisis, that's a really powerful way to practice that over and over and over again, because they are when beliefs that are the anchor of your life become uncertain, it feels like there are dominoes that expand every other context of your life.

Speaker 3: 4:50

It affects everything, and so we had these years and years of practice just accepting that this is so uncomfortable, and, and because we didn't know another way forward and because we really couldn't find answers, the only practice that we really had was speaking it out loud to each other, and and, and so we sort of learned this experientially that when you say what's deeply true, like the thing that you're most afraid of and the thing that hurts the most, even that, even just speaking it out loud, I think, is a pathway into acceptance, and as soon as you get there, there's just peace that settles, and, and we just have learned that over the years.

Speaker 3: 5:26

And so now I, now I trust that experience. I trust that if I can articulate what hurts the most, or what I'm most afraid of, and ask the question, that's the truest, that, even if there's not an answer on the other side of that question. Just the practice of, of, of articulating the exact feeling or experience, is enough to bring peace. And so, in a way, that's kind of what we do on the podcast. We practice asking our, our truest question, because that is a is the way that we get to acceptance.

Speaker 1: 5:59

That's so cool. I love that. That when you say speaking it into like just speaking it, hearing yourself, right, there's something that that does that. It's almost like I am allowing myself to move into this space. And when you hear yourself say it, it's like wait, did I really say that? That was okay. That feels good, Right, I love that you. Thank you for sharing that, Tim. How about you? What is that like? Any do you have?

Speaker 2: 6:25

any? Any? Do you have any? Yeah, what it reminded me of and what Aubrey was talking about, sort of acceptance of things as they are I think my first sort of like reading of that, you know, whether it be through Rekartoli or another, through other sources what meant that we need to accept things in our environment as they are, that things we don't have control over. And I think that's one level of it. I think there's another, slightly more subtle level, where we accept things in our environment as they are, as well as ourselves as we are. And, for instance, when you were talking, I pulled up this quote, so Faith Matters actually just published a book called At One Mint by Thomas McConkie, and it's sort of about in many ways it is about faith journeys, it's about transformation, but he gives this really important sort of caveat at the beginning where he sort of makes it clear that we are part of what he calls a divine wholeness and this I think this jives really well with Latter-day Saint theology, for instance that we are, you know, literal children of God and therefore, you know, have God in all of us, and that divine, that divineness in each of us, means that we are not, it's not just that we're enough, but that we are truly, that we are truly whole.

Speaker 2: 7:47

And he says I just love this one sentence. He says the point is by connecting to wholeness first, that divine wholeness, the wholeness itself, will motivate us, not fear and lack. You don't have to hate yourself forward anymore. And that phrase hate yourself forward, it sort of it described the first several decades of my life the feeling of, you know, the feeling of being not enough, the feeling of lacking, you know, of lacking worthiness, of not doing enough, of doing the wrong things. And my motivation for transformation was to change what I perceived as something inherently broken.

Speaker 2: 8:38

And what Thomas sort of goes on to say here is that if you perceive yourself as not as inherently whole, as part of this greater great divine wholeness, it doesn't take away your motivation to transformation, to transform, excuse me but instead that transformation takes on a quality, what he calls a quality of play, and he says the stakes couldn't be lower. But when you live in that sort of wholeness and abundance, the love that is sort of blooming out of you propels you forward regardless, and I think that it's a. This has, you know, been a new concept for me in the past few years, so to some extent I'm preaching. I'm preaching something that I'm not fully embodying right now, but it does resonate as sort of deeply true for me.

Speaker 1: 9:25

Yeah, you know, I remember I had. I've had multiple different coaches in my life. One has been a mainstay for a long time and he would always tell me about hey, you need to take full acceptance, and like what you're saying, of where you are, you have to on it. And, and for a while I thought that, as I'm just going to accept, like this is how life's going to be, and he's like no, no, no, you accept everything that you've created right where you are now. Totally accept it. You created it. You had the thoughts, the intentions that that put you there and once you do that now you can actually take responsibility for your life and start to act or be who you really are.

Speaker 1: 10:09

And that took me a long time to recognize that, because I didn't want to accept. There was so much, there was a lot of fear and accepting who I was right, the gifts, the talents that people said, oh man, you're so good at this. But it was always like, no, I need something else, there's something else external, when really, as you're talking about that wholeness, and I love that idea that we have everything that we need within us right now and that's really all that we've needed, right, but we always. It's so easy to look for outside of us and you know, it was a lot of the people that I worked with because of this state of chronic illness. They look at themselves as just what you said broken, I'm not enough, I'm not doing enough, and it's like it's not about what you're doing or not doing, it's just accepting what is. And, and I asked someone this past week, I said what are you doing in the mornings? And they kind of went through this litany of lists of Well, I get up and I do my coffee and I do this and this. I said no, no, no, no, no, no, you're missing. What do you do for you in the morning? How do you just be? And she looked at me like I don't go there, can't do that, and so I think that this idea of wholeness is so critical that it's nothing that we need to achieve or get, but it's, it's part of this, and I agree with you that it's not something that I think I've fully embraced either.

Speaker 1: 11:48

I started reading that book as well, and I love the, the, that truth, I believe it's truth, and it's like how do I engage more in that? So yeah, when you? So I guess. Let me ask you this how are you, how do you find that you're engaging more in that? As you said, you don't fully embrace it. How are you engaging in this belief that we are whole? That, I would say I would even say I like to use this term we're not perfect. I'm not perfect, but I believe that there's perfection in the journey and I really think that's similar to this wholeness. So how are you embracing that? And how would you talk to someone that feels like I'm broken? How would you help them understand like, no, you are already whole.

Speaker 3: 12:44

So I like how you put that, that there's perfection in the journey, because I think that is kind of how I approach it too. I, for me, I think my paradigm is I mean, this is totally a I'm in the middle of all of this too but what, what feels like it is working right now, is that when I there's this been this paradigm shift, that now, when I feel nervous, like when I feel, when I feel like all of a sudden I'm I'm worried about something being wrong, that feels like really good information now, as opposed to an indication of brokenness, like isn't it interesting? Like I'm having such an emotional reaction to this particular thing and like what's that revealing about? About something that maybe is a wound or, you know, something that needs healing in in my soul, as opposed to seeing it as a, as a, as something that I lack. I think it is just it reveals like a place where I need to. I want to like put some energy and attention and and for me, like that would be step one, and and for me, that could be the step one to feeling a lot of shame. But I think the thing that has changed is that, instead of instead of like taking that right turn and wanting to hide those things and feel bad about it.

Speaker 3: 13:55

The practice like the spiritual practice now, the spiritual work for me now is is like giving it all of my attention and like speaking it into words, like sometimes literally saying it out loud or writing it, and and just for me, that is the pathway into acceptance and and the.

Speaker 3: 14:12

The lesson that I keep learning is that when I can be totally honest about the thing that I feel, where I feel broken, like that act all by itself helps me to accept it.

Speaker 3: 14:24

And when you can feel loved and accepted in like what feels very messy, then then I think you lose all of the shame and the guilt that comes with with like that impulse to hide it, and so it doesn't fix anything, but but it, and it feels very simple.

Speaker 3: 14:41

But for me, that has been the most powerful spiritual practice, just like when I have the impulse to hide something, to speak it out loud instead, and and learning over and over again that like I can be accepted and loved in the, in my, in the worst ways and like the ways that I am the most embarrassed by. Like that all by itself is helping me to trust the God that I want to believe in like a God that is genuinely unconditional. And I think when I don't ever trust anyone in my physical life with the things that I'm ashamed of, then it's really hard to extend that trust to God either. And so in a way, it's like this very physical, like earthbound practice of of being honest about the things that that make my soul shrink up because I don't want anyone to know.

Speaker 2: 15:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:31

And you know, and he may not fix anything external, but I believe it does fix our heart, right, I think. I think. I think this is like the this is the beauty I think of Eckhart Holtz, of that quote is that it does allow for that piece to actually come in and enter our hearts and then, as you said, that trust becomes more and so maybe nothing externally is being fixed, but our heart that we feel is has been broken, is is coming back together in probably better ways than it was in the past. And I forget I remember there was a talk in, in you know, our, our church's general conference where, I think it was Dieter Uchtdorf, talked about the, the vase and this practice in Japan where they would not try to hide the cracks but they would actually fill them with something else, and it made it more beautiful and more valuable. And I really think that those experiences that we have that do heal our heart, they help us grow and then we get to be a light for others, right?

Speaker 3: 16:38

And I would just add I think that when you're, when you're doing that internal practice, it gives you so much energy to work on the actual problem. Like you may, you may be able to come at problems with such fresh, like invigorated, with an invigorated spirit, that you actually are more productive in the long run. But I think I often would skip that internal work and then approach problems from this feeling of being drained already and from scarcity, and so it feels to me like when you work on the inside, the rest kind of takes care of itself.

Speaker 1: 17:11

And if we can do that without guilt and shame. Oh my God, it's like. That is that's why it's so freeing, because you take that away and now it's like, hey, you can just get out and run Like there's nothing, there's no shackles on the body, it's just you can only move.

Speaker 3: 17:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:26

Something that for me, has sort of facilitated this at least partial transition, you know, from, like, perceiving myself as broken to to a whole, is sort of my changing what, what my changing belief about, about God Aubrey touched on this but, like, the way, I think the way that I've perceived God has largely dictated the way I've perceived myself throughout my life. So, for instance, you know, on my mission I suffered from OCD and script velocity and God for me at that point was sort of this, you know, mythic, literal figure, almost to almost a Zeus, you know, who was angry most of the time and had a lightning bolt waiting for me at any moment, that I, any moment that I screwed up, you know, and that I think that perception of the way I saw God seeing me made me, you know, made me, feel broken and I'm not sure where that came from. It's, I don't think it's what was preached over the pulpit growing up, you know, but something about, something about the way I heard it and the way that the way that I'm wired, you know, created, created that what I believe is a false, a false God for me, as I've, as I've gotten older, I mean, and part of this has been, you know, just this faith, this faith journey that we've been on, but as an illustration, I guess, even just in the past, in the past few years, aubrey and I between us have lost, have lost several grandparents and other another loved ones and that that that transition sort of forces you to reckon a little bit with what you believe about God. And I'm seeing these people sort of pass on and and sort of and again, like I I don't pretend I think God is, you know, way too big for us to understand what happens when people pass the other side of the veil, but for the person's the conversation to bring it to make it like a little bit literal, you know, imagining, imagining what happens when these people, when these people pass on and greet God. Do I believe that God is instantly there, making you know, making them reckon for all their mistakes? No, I don't. And do I believe that these were perfect people? No, of course not. Do I believe that they're roughly on par with me in the sense that they're human? They were trying, they screwed up, yes, and what I believe is that God, at least in a sense, welcomed them with open arms and a tight embrace, you know. And so if that's.

Speaker 2: 19:55

If that's what I believe about God for them, then I guess that's what I believe about God for me, that there is a, there is an inherent enoughness and and wholeness.

Speaker 2: 20:04

To get there, though and this has been, like Aubrey said, more of a decade plus transition has required, you know, a de, a deconstruction of what we've believed about God, and so that that Zeus-like God, you know, had to go away, and that that was actually a painful, a painful and scary process that took years.

Speaker 2: 20:24

And for the new, for the new God to appear, the one that I think is much truer, the one that sees us as part of, as part of a divine wholeness, that's that's a messy transition too, and so I don't think we a messy and lengthy transition, I should say so. I don't think we should beat ourselves up if we look at our like, if someone's listening to this and saying, oh man, like that is, you know, that's how I, that's how I see God, the way that Tim described on his mission, like, I don't mean that, as I really, really hope that nobody ends up, you know, castigating themselves over that. I think all of this, you know, all of this has to, has to unfold over a period of time and I and my, my hope for for everybody, ourselves included, is that we can sort of let that, let that process unfold organically, while while we do our best to you know, to see, see that enoughness in ourselves.

Speaker 1: 21:24

Why do you think I'm curious? It took a long time? Because I've wrestled with this. Why does it take so much time? Why can't I just change and maybe that's you know, sometimes my unlimiting belief? Why do you feel it took that time to make that change, instead of it being a quick transition?

Speaker 2: 21:47

Yeah, I should say. I guess I should say first of all that I don't want to impose my journey on anybody else Totally, and I think for some people I mean and they're, like you know, interesting scriptural examples of this in the Book of Mormon and elsewhere, where people do sort of have these overnight conversions, meaning conversion meaning, you know, transformation, like from one day to the next they become different people I certainly wouldn't rule that out as a possibility For me. Like I said, it has, and my journey is ongoing. But it has been a lengthy process, I think, because these are foundational beliefs that we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 22:34

These are beliefs that you build a life on, that you build a worldview on, and so I think it's fair to say they don't often come and go easily. This is not the superficial stuff, you know. It's not a hairstyle or a change of clothes. You know, it's like everything that we understand has been built up on top of this bottom level of what we believe about God. And so for a lot of us you know religious people and so for us to dig all the way down to those foundations and understand it and start to work with it, it just takes real time because there's a lot of you know built-up layers on top of it that also have to be worked. Work through first, and its growth right.

Speaker 3: 23:20

Like I think all lasting growth is slow and steady. You mistrust things that happen really quickly and impulsively, and so I think part of the experience is just that it's slow growing in the way that you know that anything in the natural world is slow and growing. But I will say also that I think there was some part of the journey for me that was sort of stoppered by the resistance, like I think it took a long. I think I was swirling in a lot of pain for a long time because I was trying so hard not to change and I was really resisting the questions that I genuinely had and resisting the changes that I was feeling because my understanding was that it was wrong. It was wrong to even entertain these questions.

Speaker 3: 24:07

And so I think in the first few years I did everything I could not to expand and I think had I had a better understanding of faith development and this idea of faith stages and that faith can your expression of faith, it can change throughout your life and that can be a healthy maturity and not an indication that something's gone wrong, I think probably I would have been able to hold that more loosely and move into this experience of a faith journey more quickly, but I, because there was so much fear and so much resistance, I think a lot of the time in the beginning was spent just trying to backpedal and I'm not maybe that was part of the deconstruction that I needed. But I think that had I understood that faith can mature and look different, then I think maybe I would have been able to sort of move into that flow more easily and quickly.

Speaker 1: 25:03

You know something that you both kind of touched on. I think there's this. You talked about the questions and is it okay to ask? And I know in my own Just my own personal experience, there was a time when on my mission for church, I mean it was it was a really rough time, like we're in an area where no one wanted to listen, and what's so interesting is it was like we were trying to push a message on on people that if I went back and I can't but if I went back now and did this again, it would be such a different experience experience. But at the time I remember we were just struggling and it's like what's wrong with me? Why don't people like us? You know why I don't even like myself.

Speaker 1: 25:54

And I remember my mission president. He was like elder Michelle, just just have more faith. And I'm like that's not what's neat, like it's just it didn't feel right. I felt so burdened by that, like I don't know what else to do.

Speaker 1: 26:12

And and I think in what you're saying there's also this thing, and I would say maybe in our, in our faith tradition and then others as well, when you Ask questions, you can be looked at as well. That's a dumb question. You should announce that question. Why ask that question? Or you know, and and I think that, again, going back to the people I work with, they've been conditioned so many times that if I ask a question to a medical professional, the answer is, well, that's just a dumb question. Don't ask that.

Speaker 1: 26:49

You just do this because I said, and I think that is ingrained in us as well, and so even asking the question articulated in the question can be scary. And what's gonna happen if I actually share this with somebody and, as you said, you know, voicing that and keeping that inside, wrestling with that being okay, with that, tim, as you talked about, kind of similar of is this Can I, can I move into this place? There there's, there's fear and that as well, and I think that fear is ingrained from Super young age. Don't ask that. That's a stupid question. Why would you ask that? And so I Think that's so ingrained in part of us as well and important to To move through that, and I think that's part of why it does take time. It is a wrestle, it's a. It's a real wrestle, and if these questions are coming into our consciousness, they're there for a reason.

Speaker 1: 27:51

Yeah it's not just because something's wrong with us. It's giving us the ability to expand, and if we try to suppress that, then I think that's met with pain.

Speaker 1: 28:03

Yeah and sometimes I think we can Misidentify the pain with oh I shouldn't do this because this is causing pain, versus if I actually embrace the question and Move into that, then on the other side I'm gonna find everything that I actually need, or what I need right in the moment at least yeah, that I really agree with what you're saying and for me, the it hasn't always been about like being afraid of of the questions themselves.

Speaker 2: 28:33

It's been. It's I've been afraid of like getting the wrong answers to my questions, you know, and of the implications of those answers, and so, as if there's a right answer, as if there's a right answer, yeah for sure, and like at the beginning of like when we started, like on this real faith journey, like we felt strongly that there were right answers and it's like what's the formula? It's like you're gonna, you know, you're gonna read, study, ponder and pray and then you're gonna get an answer and it better be the, it better be the right answer. Because if it's, if it's not, then and like I was talking about with implications, then then what does that? What does that mean for you, for your marriage, for your kids, if you have them, for the rest of your, for the rest of your relationships and your family, and that stuff? That stuff can be really really scary. Like that's what I I was sort of like in a, in a crisis of faith for probably, you know, a year, depending on where you like put the place, the starting line, between a year and like three or four years before I, before I told Aubrey that I was, I was struggling because I was I was afraid that by voicing, you know, by voicing those questions, I'd have to grapple with the answers and by grappling with the answers I might come to the wrong answer. And if I get to the wrong answer then that could mean the dissolution of my marriage or the relationships that I, that I value the most.

Speaker 2: 29:57

And I think what is so scary, like in this particular case, when we're talking about like faith questions, if you're, if you're worried that an answer might come that that sort of like dissolves your version of God, I Think there's a legitimate worry that God Will just it will end up totally dissolved. I think what, what often happens when people, or what has happened I should just say what has happened to me when I Actually did allow myself to ask the question was that, yes, that old God dissolved. But I didn't realize during that really, really scary dissolution that a Sort of a new face of God was emerging the whole time and it was gonna be. It would end up being something Much more whole and much more healthy than I had in the previous version, but that didn't sort of eliminate the, the scariness of my old, of my old paradigm, you know, going away. And so, yes, I do think, I do think we need to ask the questions and it's, it's interesting because there is this paradigm in the, in the culture, in Church culture specifically.

Speaker 2: 31:10

It's like, yes, like questions are good as long as you get the right answer, you know. And so I think we need to be, we need to be open to a variety of answers, sort of trusting, as I think, as long as we've got, as long as we've got good intentions, you know, I think we have to trust that that sort of divine hand is holding ours and pulling us in the right, in the right direction.

Speaker 3: 31:34

And I think in that era of our life we had this we were always Scanning for when we had lost the spirit. I remember being just almost obsessed, like had I offended the spirit by asking this question and I was recognizing, you know, deep, deep discomfort and fear and thinking that must mean that I've lost the spirit and I should. I shouldn't be asking this question, and and so I, I tried so hard to have to put blinders back on and to ignore the questions, and and I think what I believe on, what I believe now is that that God really isn't ever the spirit of fear. And so when I'm feeling that spirit of fear, that actually in some ways is a Lipmous test, it doesn't indicate that the spirit is gone. It indicates that some you're I'm listening to something that isn't God, whatever, whatever it is, god is not putting that, that fear in my heart. And those, the questions, my, my genuine questions, just they gave me a lot of fear and and made me want to hide from them and and so what took a long time to learn is that that just totally embodying the question and Just leaning right in, when that was where all my energy was flowing, when I just couldn't get these questions off my mind, that there could Actually be peace in that process and that the fear was really coming from from trying to run from the questions and trying so hard Doing other questions.

Speaker 3: 32:56

And I remember, I remember lots of experiences where people that I trusted and Respected would tell me kind of what you were saying about your mission, president, that, like this is a matter of faith and if you have more faith, these questions will go away. And I knew in like my soul that that wasn't true, because I was doing everything, like absolutely everything, to to stop having these questions, and so that Made me, I mean, that was scarier, because I felt like the formula wasn't working and even these people I trust the most don't have a better way forward. And and learning to just Did, I guess I mean it keeps coming back to acceptance, to just accept that maybe the maybe, the question is here and this is perfect and maybe there's something for this doubt to teach me. And and Then there was peace in that experience. But I think that I think what had to be undone was this idea that anything Uncomfortable is an absence of the spirit, because growth is always uncomfortable, like you know, any sort of any sort of Tension creates the creates growth, and that that's what we're here for right. So like, of course, we're gonna have uncomfortable experiences and and and maybe that's like always a good thing.

Speaker 3: 34:12

I mean, I'm sure there are times when tension should lead you away from something, but I, my experience with faith crisis is that tension is indicative, that like something is Growing and blooming here and it's hard in the very best way.

Speaker 3: 34:26

And I think I think, when you, when you have that experience with people in authority who are, who are trying to slow you down or turn, have you turn like just experiencing that, just like holding the holding space for this person who you genuinely respect and For the answers that you're getting in your own heart, like being able to be in that room in that in that moment, and feel so Uncomfortable that like that it's not easy.

Speaker 3: 34:52

I think just that experience all by itself is is like a soul expanding experience that I'm not sure you can have any other way and and so, instead of Looking back now and thinking that like those people had failed me or I was failing, like, I feel grateful for those moments that really that really forced me to mature in a new way and by, by, you know, setting myself apart and having and Recognizing that, even though this person is so good and this person has a authority, like I, can recognize my own access to God and and it's okay that we don't see perfectly eye-to-eye on this particular question, and that was a maturity that I definitely had not developed and I'm not really sure I see another way to develop it. So, like even those kinds of tensions, like even those really uncomfortable moments in the middle of it, I feel like they were part of the Really important part of the journey for me.

Speaker 1: 35:50

That's really cool. I read a book a while back called was it everything, everything all at once, and, and, and, and she talked about this kind of duality, that she could hold Two truths or two emotions. And I think often and I love what you said about like this fear of. Well, if I'm feeling this, then clearly the spirit has left me or I don't have the spirit. When, when we look in the Bible, in the New Testament, the parables, it's like in those moments of doubt is when Jesus, essentially like, rushed to those people and there was just coincidence that he showed up at a certain place or a certain time and was there to help to lift, like the woman of the well, right, it was all coincidence, not, and so it's. It's so interesting that we have these stories of him rushing to people and yet we're often taught that no, he's gonna distance himself from you if you are, you know, doing x, y or z. It's like I don't, I don't know if I believe that anymore. I believe that no, there's, maybe the spirit is trying to help you reach you more, and and.

Speaker 1: 37:06

So this duality of things, holding two truths to emotions, can I, can I both feel fear and Love at the same time. Can I fear anger? Can I feel anger and and gratitude at the same time? And I think that we Try, we would try so hard to focus on one thing I got to move away from this year. I've got to get out of that and into this. But it's like, can I actually hold those two at the same time? It isn't okay. And can I move forward in that? And I think eventually that fear, doubt, anger, whatever can be transmuted, but if we continually try to push that off it, it only creates more resistance and more tension. And and then I think that is where now we're not allowing, I think we're not allowing the spirit to move through us. It's like, no, this is okay, hold those two, work through them, move through them. And God's still there, hasn't left. You know, they are still part of us, with us, suffering with us, not at some distant location waiting for us to arrive.

Speaker 3: 38:19

Yeah, yeah, I think you put that so well. We had a friend recently who talked about how she sort of just had this epiphany that Jesus and Gethsemane is teaching us to feel our feelings, that, like he literally felt he's feeling so intensely, all of the feelings so intensely, that he fled from every poor and like could that be part of the lesson of the atonement for us? And I love that idea because there are definitely emotions that I think I shouldn't feel and I don't want to feel and I try really hard to mitigate when I do. And I love the idea that, like, even the worst emotions may have something to teach us and that choosing to lean in and feel them all the way may be the actual path to healing.

Speaker 1: 39:02

I never thought of that. I love that. You just said that about Jesus feeling everything and an example to us. That's so. I've never thought of it that way before I hear it feels right on.

Speaker 3: 39:15

Yeah, it really does. And it feels so profound because I have such a natural resistance to half of my emotions. You know I want to try to go hard, not to feel anything negative and it really does feel like that was part of what we learned from the atonement that he asks for witnesses and then feels it so deeply and experientially. I feel like that really is the most healing thing Just full acceptance of whatever emotion is coming up and it moves through you.

Speaker 2: 39:52

Yeah, I think there's this. For whatever reason, we have this very common idea that in all other aspects of our lives, except for, like, emotional and spiritual growth, we're going to have to go through. We're going to have to go through tension. So, you know, if you want to get, if you're a runner and you want to get faster, you have to, you have to go run, and it's going to hurt, you know. If you are, you know. Or if you want bigger muscles, you have to lift weights, and it's going to, it's going to hurt. If you want to learn a difficult concept, you're going to have to study, and that's going to, you know, and that's going to cause a lot of tension and difficulty.

Speaker 2: 40:24

When it comes to, you know again, emotional and spiritual growth, it seems like what we hope for is just smooth sailing, like if we're, if we are, if we have this again, if we quote unquote, quote unquote have the spirit, we're just going to feel good, we're going to feel peace and happiness, and yet we expect to sort of like counter the laws of the universe in that, in that case, and say, ok, that's how I'm going to experience my emotional and spiritual growth and I think it. I don't. I don't think that's the case. I think it's just like with everything else.

Speaker 2: 40:53

It's those contractive, difficult, tension filled moments that that cause the growth, and that's not to say that's not to say that there shouldn't be moments that we can relax into and that feel, and that feel, expansive. We need that too. It's just to go back to, like, the weightlifting analogy. You can't be lifting weights all the time. You also need to, you also need to rest right. Both of those, both of those things are are true and that. I don't know if that makes it any easier, necessarily when you're going through really hard emotional and spiritual things, but at least for me, after the fact, to sort of like reconcile with with my journey, it's, it's made those, it's made those moments feel really valuable.

Speaker 1: 41:37

And I think that's really like what comes to mind for me when you're, when you're saying that is one of my coaches. He said you know, the the further we get off of our path, and I could say this with the more that we resist our path, the more that we resist having to having to experience this tension, the more dis-ease it creates in the body until there's actually disease manifest and and. And really I think this, this works in here, that we I think so seek so much for certainty, like everything has to be certain. And this goes back to the right answer, right, well, everything's good if you get the right answer. But is there really a right answer? Or are there more, more, more paths, more ways to get to God than this one, what we would term the straight, narrow path, but is not expansive and that only allows for maybe one or two people, you know, maybe one person on the path, definitely not walking arm and arm the way that it's described but that this tension is good and it's needed. And you're right, it's in every other aspect of life. But, for whatever reason, we don't think it should be in our, in our faith life that everything should just be have more faith, just pray more, just go to church more, but that doesn't answer the questions of an individual soul. Maybe the answer is the question for that person, or that they want certainty, that they're seeking that certainty, but it's like I don't know. There has to be tension. And and I do find that it's so interesting Again in this, going back to this chronic health space, I really believe that the beginnings of many of disease is this emotional, spiritual place where there's this resistance to something and that resistance just grows and grows until there's such disharmony in the body that it's it's no manifesting right Other other ways.

Speaker 1: 43:54

And I think we see that a lot. I see that a lot and it's yet. Yet it's the place that no one wants to go, and I shouldn't say no one too much of a surproletive. Many don't want to go there. My son would correct me if you heard me say that he's like, really that no one like. Okay, no, I'm wrong, sorry, just so, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:15

But I think that tension is so needed, but our sense, but our, our need for certainty, I think, can dissuade us from moving into that tension.

Speaker 3: 44:26

Yeah, and this is reminding me of one of Richard Rohrer's books, falling upward. He talks about the first half of life and the second half of life and how, in the first half of life, we really do need those primary, like study school answers. We need the easy recipe that it always works and it's a thing you can trust, because that is building this very solid container that will serve you for the rest of your life. But in the second half of your life, the container is formed and now you're using that container to fill with your own gifts that you're going to, you're going to spend your life, you know, using and giving from this container, and. But often we also find ourselves pushing up against these, against these very rigid walls that served us really usefully in the beginning of our life and then maybe cause more tension later.

Speaker 3: 45:12

And and I think it it both things can be true in this case too, that the totally service in the first half of our life in the, in a very conventional way, and in the second half of our life they may be serving us in a new way, which is that we recognize tension now and then.

Speaker 3: 45:26

And that's actually where the growth is coming, as opposed to, to the formation stage where we can trust that there is a recipe and it's very easy and everyone's doing the same. So I, I, I think it's. I think that's another one of those paradoxes that we kind of have to learn experientially as we grow through this faith development, but that can totally serve us in both halves of our of our life and I love what you're saying, I totally believe that, about spiritual growth, that this can, this is so connected to our own, to our actual embodiment, and I love the idea that that this can be such important spiritual work, like mining for the tension and and doing that with so much acceptance that you're actually looking for it can, can actually be healing our, our, our bodies and our souls.

Speaker 2: 46:13

And just really briefly, to add on to that, richard, what what Richard Orr says is that the transition between the first half of life and the second half of life is brought on by either great love or great suffering. And I'm sure he's right, because I think Richard Orr is right about pretty much everything, but in my, in my opinion, it's very, very, it's much more common that it's great suffering, that that facilitates, facilitates that transition, and the suffering can come from anywhere. I think, to the extent that I find myself in the second half of life now, and this is not necessarily, you know, chronological, it's, it's more of a, you know, a paradigm, but to that extent it has been brought out, brought about by, you know, by my own suffering, and a lot of it, you know, is because of the difficulties that I've had with faith, you know. Other parts of it are, you know, struggles that I've had with mental illness and OCD. But I think the that, I think it's the, it's the common, it's the common path, and I don't want to say that in a in a glib way. Just, you know, oh, don't worry about it. Like I know you're suffering, but it's all, you know, but it's all for the greater good, like you're transitioning.

Speaker 2: 47:26

Well, for a good. It's all for a purpose, yeah, exactly. And that I mean I think that can be like in some cases, or I think it really does depend on the case. You know, in some cases that's that's helpful to hear and sort of incorporate into into your worldview, and in some cases it's very damaging and not and not helpful at all. So I, you know I leave that to everybody to determine but I that does, but I do retain a faith in in a, you know, a sort of bigger divine picture that says there is, there is alchemy. You know, through our suffering, that that that will take us, that will take us into greater, into greater growth and greater alchemy.

Speaker 1: 48:06

And I think that as we move through this, this journey, that and not everyone gets there, but but I do believe that we start to see that there's been grace throughout the entire journey, that we may not see it in the moment. I remember a time in my life where, you know business, I was struggling, didn't know really the direction I needed to go was was trying to do right everything that I thought was right and that by my doing that I should be blessed. But why isn't this happening? And and right, in our faith culture we call it a blessing and others that would be praying with us, praying with you. But I sought out that and looking for this certainty, looking for the answer, and it didn't come. But what did come was immense love, and maybe love that I had ever felt before, as we were praying together and that's exactly what was needed.

Speaker 1: 49:20

And I believe that as we go through these processes, that we may not recognize it, but God is giving us exactly what we need as we're moving through the experience, and sometimes we can be angry, sometimes we can be fearful, sometimes we have that moment of oh my gosh, I see it and they're all right, they're all good, and that he's, I'm gonna say they are heavenly parents, that they're big enough that our feelings aren't gonna hurt them, right, if we're angry, if we're fearful, if we're mad, they're okay with that, it's okay and yet. But coming to that place can be challenging and I think much of it is because of this, maybe expectation of what it should be finding the right answer. So, yeah, I just I think it's so beautiful. This tension that we've talked about is the thing that's needed, but the thing that we fear the most.

Speaker 3: 50:33

Yeah, I love what you said I was in.

Speaker 3: 50:36

We were walking through an art gallery a couple of years ago.

Speaker 3: 50:39

I was with a friend who was noticing there was a painting of I can't even remember actually what it was, but I remember that the color was black because and they were all images that either implied divinity or were actual depictions of heavenly parents. And I just remember her saying that she had learned that in Eastern traditions that black in some Eastern tradition I can't even remember what but that that color is sacred because it and is often used to depict divinity, because it absorbs every other color. And so it's like this understanding that black or that this works for divinity, because there is no emotion too heavy or too much or too something that would offend an infinitely good God. And I love that, because that's not usually how I see that color, but I think it was a very, it was a really tangible reminder of what I want to believe about God that there isn't an experience or a feeling or a thought that is too much for God to just love me for. Anyway, you know, last year my wife.

Speaker 1: 51:48

She's in the MCO choir and the last December it was the. I think the theme of it was Star of Night and I love that you brought that up. The blackness that it can absorb everything except light. Then light can transcend that and I love that, because Jesus is that light that through this journey he is always there. And again, we may not see it, but it's there and it's kind of like what you mentioned a little while back on is the spirit with us, is it not? It's like what is it that's pulling us this direction? If it's not the spirit, well then what is it? And it's like no, it is that, no matter how far off the path right, quote-unquote, someone says you may be or are, there's still something pulling people towards light, towards understanding, towards their seeking something. And I do believe that in that blackness, in that darkness, sometimes we have to wander through that to really appreciate and see the light, be able to understand what that is, and then I think that also gives us compassion for others, that maybe part of our experience is to help us so I can see other people and be a light for them as well, or not even be a light, just be there and not, oh, this is all for a purpose, which, again, as you said, tim, sometimes that's needed to say, hey, there's a purpose behind all this. But sometimes what's needed is just kind of sit with you and be with you, because that's what our savior does. He's just there with us.

Speaker 1: 53:44

And I think when we look back, I know, at least in my life, I can only speak for me. But when I look back, I see his hand in all the experiences and it's like wow, without that I would never have been pulled to where I am now. And it wasn't a pushing, it wasn't a when are you gonna get there? Hurry up, let's go. It was this hey, I'm here, I'm helping to pull when you want it, but I'm not leaving and I just, I think that that's something that I'm transitioning to. It's not about me doing, it's not about what do I have to do. It's can I see these two truths, these two emotions? Can I allow the tension to be okay with it and then just move through it? Because that's for my life, that's when I've found beauty, and that beauty is often in recognizing that I am loved by heavenly parents and that there's nothing that I can do that will change that love? Yeah, it's beautiful.

Speaker 3: 54:47

You're talking. I've been thinking about this the last couple of minutes. But another thing that Thomas McConkey told us once in a podcast that I talk about all the time, because it really did change my life. He talked about following your energy and for me, in a lot of the bumpiest parts of this journey, it's been very hard for me to feel sure about what is the spirit and what isn't, and what am I being prompted to do and what you know. And it just felt very hazy and having new language for that and just naming it energy has actually been so useful for me because that feels like it's always accessible. So when I'm not really sure, because it feels very confusing and I don't know if I should, you know, I just like don't know where I'm being called it does always feel like I can figure out what I feel energized by and to me, I think, like I really think, looking back, that it is this spirit.

Speaker 3: 55:39

But in the times when it's been, when I felt like I just have no idea and I just it's so complicated to decide if it's the spirit, just choosing to trust what energizes me has not led me wrong and I think that's something that I can always. I can always center on, because it is a really embodied feeling. It's like it literally this idea or this book or this person is literally giving me energy. And then the opposite is also useful, that there are things that sometimes just it feels like a literal drain, like it just I literally feel tired when I think about this thing or this person or this idea, and I think that's a really good litmus test, like when I feel like I'm really the most confused. I really trust that feeling of being energized or being drained and it feels like, in general, that's a good guide and I think that it maybe that's just how the spirit speaks to me, but that feels like something that has been a consistent, like a consistent messenger through this whole experience.

Speaker 1: 56:47

And I think that's a great way to look at it as energy, because I mean, energy is I love that word and I loved how you shared that on one of the podcasts I listened to, because so many people do wrestle with. Do I have it? Do I not have the spirit? But if you're looking at it as energy, which it's the same source I believe it's the same source it's okay. Just follow that and if it's uplifting, then move into that. If it's as you said, if it's the opposite, if you're fatigued and brought down, maybe that's not where I wanna go. So, but to call it a different name again, and is it okay? Do our people okay calling it a different name? And that's where again questions words. Is it okay to do this? Yeah, it's fine, not a big deal. God is bigger than what we. The certainty that we wanna create around them, that they can't be part of this, it's like no, they definitely can, and there's a much more expansive, much more expansive God than what we want to pigeonhole the men too.

Speaker 3: 58:02

So yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 58:04

Well, I'd love to continue, but we have things to get through. I so appreciate you all coming on and sharing this. I think it's gonna be so beneficial because, again, it's not just in this space that I work in with chronic illness, but it's pervasive right Throughout our country and world that there's so much fear, with tension, with moving into these places, with trust questions, and so I think that what you all shared and what we talked about is gonna be so beneficial for others, and just thank you for your heart and for who you all are and what you do to help support so many people.

Speaker 3: 58:49

Thank you, thanks for having us.

Speaker 2: 58:50

Yeah, it's all right, it's our pleasure. Thanks for the important work that you're doing.

Speaker 1: 58:54

Randy, thank you, you're welcome. So where can people find you? Where can people listen to you? Find you, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:00

Please share. Faithmattersorg is the website we also. We have the podcast everywhere you might listen to a podcast Apple or Spotify or whatever it is. But, yeah, go to faithmattersorg you can find you can subscribe to the newsletter there and that's sort of just a weekly digest of everything that we're doing, including the podcast, events, book publishing and we also publish a magazine called Wayfair and so all of those things against sort of yeah, that's just head to faithmattersorg to get all of that information.

Speaker 1: 59:37

Awesome. Well, I love the podcast and I shared it with several people and they've loved this. So, again, thank you both, and so appreciate you coming on and taking time out of your day, of course. Thanks, randy. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Restore the Real Podcast. This show is supported and informed by not only my own deep personal work, but also the deep healing work that we offer our patients here at Total Body Wellness Clinic. In the show notes below, you'll find all the links that you'll need to hop on a discovery call with our team for some one-to-one support, follow along on social media or even learn about some of our favorite recommendations and products. Until next time, keep it real.