Monique Valcour - Sustainable Career Success: Crafting a Path That Lasts

Ready to revolutionize your career narrative?
Join us for a conversation with Monique Valcour , where we uncover the secrets to crafting sustainable careers in today's dynamic landscape.

Ever wondered how to align your strengths, passions, and values for lasting career fulfillment? Or perhaps you're curious about navigating the gig economy and staying adaptable amidst constant change. 

In our latest podcast episode, Sustainable Career Success: Crafting a Path That Lasts. Monique Valcour unveils game-changing insights that will reshape the way you approach your professional journey.

From redefining the concept of 'expiry dates' for degrees to mastering the delicate dance of dual-career relationships, we leave no stone unturned in our quest for career longevity and work-life symbiosis.

But that's not all, Monique Valcour shares actionable strategies for managing energy levels, combating burnout, and fostering a thriving professional network—sorry, scratch that—'connection' ecosystem. 🤝✨
Whether you're a career enthusiast, part of a power couple, or simply seeking balance in your work and life, this episode is your golden ticket to transformation.

Don't miss out! Tune in now to elevate your career narrative and embark on a journey of growth, connection, and fulfillment. 🎧💼

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to Leaders Upgraded the place where people who want to upgrade and fast track their career, their life and their leadership journey tend to gather. I am your host, kanvi Gautam, and I shall be speaking to the top 10% of the world's leading authors, ceos, coaches and thinkers to bring you some of the best and brilliant ideas to fast track your way to success. Would you like an upgrade? Let's do this. We are talking with Dr Monique Alcor, who is an executive coach a faculty, who has taught across continents in the US and is now based in Europe, and I have been following her work for the longest time, so I know this is going to be a fantastic conversation. So thank you so much, monique, for joining us.

Speaker 2: 0:50

It's my pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 0:52

So I keep looking at Monique and her own career, which can be in a podcast session in its own right an extremely global footprint One day. Know teaching in some exotic university here and then another exotic client there. So I love the fact that you know your advice to us on crafting careers is going to be coming from the trenches and not just theoretical frameworks. I'm very, very excited about that. So let's begin. You have been talking for a while now about this concept of sustainable career success, and I know you know we're living in the world where sustainability is a big issue with environment and all of that, but careers being sustainable is this even possible? I mean, it's a fast-paced world, it's global, it's connected. The pressure is higher than before. Is this even possible, and how do you define sustainable career success?

Speaker 2: 1:47

Right, thank you. And just before I answer that question, I just want to back up and thank you for kind of acknowledging my own career, because I have to say, although I started off as an academic and my initial interest in careers came through research and was the subject of my dissertation, I have done everything that I recommend other people do. So the things that I recommend are really tried and proven and in fact I do have a career and a life that I am utterly delighted to have created and very much customized. So, yes, I do in fact believe that sustainable careers are possible and, as you say, you know, we are in an era where there are a massive level of demands. I see the current career, for example, creating their own pathways, work decoupling a bit from organizations, which is both good and bad. Advantage of those possibilities, that requires a great deal of self-awareness, of ability to overcome one's own internal assumptions and barriers, as well as the structural challenges of the employment market. So it's, you know, kind of high risk, high reward times that we're living in right now, if you can marshal the skill set to know what you want and to know how to go about pursuing it. So with that as a backdrop.

Speaker 2: 3:31

You know you mentioned that I have this model of sustainable careers that consists of four primary elements, and I look at these as kind of a guiding framework as you think about moving through your career over the span of your working years, which is many decades. You know, oftentimes when we think about career advice or coaching people in careers, it's about getting that next job, it's about solving a problem that exists at a certain point in time. For me, sustainable careers is specifically about how you cultivate and manage and develop your career over the course of your entire working lifespan, and so these four elements start off, first of all, with finding alignment between the work that you do and your own strengths, interests and values, because fundamentally, our intrinsic motivation, our sense of meaning and our sense of satisfaction with our careers is really based in are we doing work that allows us to experience challenge and growth, that fits with, that enables us to leverage our strengths? That really consists in some degree of alignment between what we care about as people and what our work is contributing to. So that's one core element.

Speaker 2: 4:56

The second core element is about having ongoing learning and renewal, and this again, as we've already discussed how the world of careers is changing, this is becoming ever more and more important. It's funny how frequently I will speak to parents of university age students who are terribly concerned about the choice of what field is the student going to specialize in, and I find that actually to be not terribly relevant, because what you leave on the day of your university graduation with is only a small portion of what you're going to need to learn for the rest of your career, and it is completely possible to change fields and to evolve. So having ongoing learning and renewal is vital, and a lot of that comes from opportunities that we have to create ourselves, as opposed to always being sponsored through some degree program or through some corporate leadership development type of pathway.

Speaker 1: 5:55

I totally agree with this thing that you were saying about. You know, I have my share of parents who think I should be able to advise people on what's the degree they should do, and I'm like it's kind of irrelevant and every subsequent degree you do makes the previous one even more irrelevant. That might explain why I had to do a PhD. But on a more serious note that you know, I sometimes think that universities should have degrees with expiry dates on them.

Speaker 2: 6:24

Oh, that's an interesting concept.

Speaker 1: 6:25

Right, you did your degree in the 19-whatever. The world has changed dramatically since you got your degree. And to keep harping on, oh, in the 19-whatever, I got my. Okay, yeah, you did, but what were you being taught and what was the world then? How is that of relevance now? So I would love to have an expiry date with the degree. I mean, your license expires to drive. Why wouldn't your degree be expiring? And so I completely understand that bit about you know not over relying on you know the formal piece of learning as a pathway, but learning to learn as a capability. That Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 7:11

You talked about. You know, knowing our strengths and values and interests, and one of the things that I think people don't spend enough time on is actually thinking about having a sense of agency around one's own career.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 7:26

And not defining it, and I remember when you were talking earlier, you were mentioning how your strengths and values itself is an evolving capability. It doesn't stay the same. If you could talk a little bit about it, because I think one of the issues I find in the field of careers is that there is an assumption of linearity and consistency that is baked into the way people approach their careers which doesn't stand the test of time. So talk to us a little bit about these shifting sands, a little bit.

Speaker 2: 7:55

Absolutely yeah. So as you move through your career, you know, we typically go through multiple cycles of exploring something new, of learning, of moving into a new area, of gradually building our competence and achieving mastery. And oftentimes, once we've done that, you know, it starts to feel a little bit stale. Or we see something, you know, interesting that's kind of popping up and catching our interest elsewhere. So just before I got on this call with you, I was on a coaching call with a client who works at a.

Speaker 2: 8:29

He's a managing director at a leadership development firm and he's 50 years old. So he has, you know, over the last two decades, 25 years or so, has achieved tremendous mastery in what he's done and he's become deeply interested in social impact, organizational development. So he is leading his firm in a new area, new collaborations with NGOs and that type of organization to really marshal the resources of corporations in his country to contribute to projects that have real social impact for the, you know, less fortunate in the world. And so this is an example of how you know one person's reshifting, refocusing, not throwing away anything he's done before, but investing and reaching into an area where he is very, very interested, where his values are pointing him to have an impact in the world beyond corporations and to be able to bring together different groups of people in order to solve needs in underdeveloped countries, for example, of how that might evolve.

Speaker 2: 9:48

We also know that as people move through life, when you get to early on in your career, you tend to really favor challenge and learning. You're trying to advance and to establish yourself. At mid-career, many people are very concerned about balance. They often have fairly complicated lives with outside children, aging parents, etc. And as people move into late career, oftentimes longing for a sense of authenticity and meaning in what we do comes to the forefront. So these are also developmental shifts that can call for, and can stimulate a little bit of refocusing work to make sure that what we're doing is really plugging into what we have most to offer and what will be fulfilling to us.

Speaker 1: 10:27

Yeah, and you know, somehow we were never really taught to take that long-term perspective on our careers, right, we were kind of taught you got a job and then the most exciting thing that happened was that your job hopped. Maybe. But to think of it in terms of, you know, work as a means of self-expression and self-actualization is not, I think, a luxury that many of the previous generations have necessarily had. And, of course, depending on you know who's watching this and what country they are in and what's happening there right now, there are still circumstances under which it may seem like, you know, work and self-actualization is a luxury, but there are ways of creating that, isn't it? In the smallest possible manner, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Absolutely. You know, one of the things that we know that contributes most to a sense of having meaning in one's work is having an understanding of what the ultimate impact of the work is. So one way for people and for managers who lead teams to increase the general sense of meaning is to help people to understand what does this work serve, what is the impact that this work has on the ultimate end users clients, you know, customers, etc. And how does it improve their lives and their ability to achieve what's important to them? So that's one way is to really think through that line of production and how your work touches other people and provide some benefits to them. It's also about bringing your work into alignment with your values, and oftentimes you know we were mentioning before we got started about the concept of burnout, and many of the people who I work with as coaching clients end up finding that one of the things that really contributes to their experience of burnout is feeling that their own values are completely out of alignment with those of the organization, that what they're doing is not meaningful at all in terms of anything that they really care about.

Speaker 2: 12:33

So there are, you know, there are micro shifts people can make in order to experience a greater sense of meaningfulness. Sometimes it's changing the way that we think about our work. You know, one thing that I do, for example, is as a person who runs my own business. Of course, part of my time has to be spent on administrative and accounting type of functions, which I don't particularly enjoy, but I reframe that work in my own mind as this is. These are the tasks that allow me to have freedom and total autonomy, and that is incredibly meaningful to me. Autonomy is my number one career value. So by making that kind of cognitive framing shift, that brings a much greater sense of meaningfulness into a task that otherwise wouldn't be particularly fulfilling, you know. So that's kind of a smaller way there are. Oftentimes we achieve a sense of meaning through the relationships that we have.

Speaker 1: 13:29

Most of the leaders that I work with express a great deal of fulfillment through helping other people grow and learn and achieve mastery, or helping to facilitate the achievement of some big goal by a team of people yeah so working through our relationships too yeah, you know, given all the work that I do on storytelling, it sounds like it's the narrative you're crafting around the work that you're doing and and using that narrative to bring more, you know, purpose and connection and meaning to what it? Is that you're doing, and so what's the third and fourth?

Speaker 2: 14:07

so the third thing is well-being and the fit of work plus the rest of life.

Speaker 2: 14:13

Sometimes I do workshops on managing energy, multiple forms of energy, you know physical, mental, emotional and one sense of purpose, and that is really a foundation of having a sustainable career.

Speaker 2: 14:26

There's so many people who will go into an incredibly demanding job and just burn themselves out, just give every drop of energy that they have and not actually pay attention to making sure that they are resilient, that they can continue, and it's you know, it's a really it's a small personal tragedy when that happens, especially if it results in a person then sort of retreating from work that they find really meaningful.

Speaker 2: 14:56

So I always encourage people to build a set of practices around making sure that they have the solid foundation of feeling well, you know, of having fundamentally sleeping enough and eating a healthy diet and exercising and being connected to people who are the source of positive energy, who they feel that they have a sense of kinship with, et cetera, and then using that as a foundation to achieve great things in their work and to lead other people Similarly. I mentioned already that as we go through our work lives, there's usually an evolution with respect to what kinds of demands we have emanating from our lives outside of work. So that's another element is how do we integrate our work demands in such a way that we can continue to be meaningfully engaged in our private lives and having rewarding relationships?

Speaker 1: 15:52

you know I, so I want to talk about that a little bit, because I know you've been interviewed on engaged in our private lives and having rewarding relationships. You know I, so I want to talk about that a little bit because I know you've been interviewed on this. I've seen some of your Harvard Business Review pieces also on this topic and it's extremely relevant. I've, you know, been trying to tell my own clients in the corporate world they need to pay more attention to this and that's this idea of, you know, dual career couples. You know, and gone are the days. So this is my story too.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Like people, I will often ask people. I said you know, do you know what is a trailing spouse? So they'll say, yeah, it's like the, the wife who follows the husband. I said the first mistake, it's not the wife who follows the husband, it's the partner following whoever is moving for work. There's a bias right there, but anyway, that's a separate conversation. But I said you know who follows the husband, it's the partner following whoever is moving for work. There's a bias right there, but anyway, that's a separate conversation. But I said you know, we've moved countries between my husband and my work, we have shifted around. And I said, I'm not a trailing spouse, I'm a pushing spouse.

Speaker 1: 16:46

I will often push him to look at opportunities beyond. I guess maybe it's my HR thing or whatever to you know, given his aspirations and careers and things like that. But it's a dance and it's a dynamic, and I think that your suggestions on how do you manage that dynamic are extremely important, as we have more women coming into the workforce who are wanting to give their careers a level of sustainability as well. So I would love for you to be able to share some concrete suggestions for those who are in that dual career situation. How do they best manage it, and are there particular strategies that you think work better for women versus men? I don't know if you've thought about that strategies that you think work better for women versus men.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I don't know if you've thought about that. I think, foundationally, the key thing is to really, you know, talk and come to a consensus with your partner, regardless of what your gender is, of what your partner's gender is, to have a sense of what is it that we value most as a couple, what is the shared vision that we have for how our lives are going to unfold together. And then beyond that, you know, particularly in couples in which both people are really committed to their work and to their careers, oftentimes it involves, you know, if you're holding that vision of a shared life. Let's say, for example, we decide we want to live together. One thing that we're not going to do is we're not going to be a commuting spouse. And it's interesting because a lot of the people I work with work for the United Nations and for other international NGOs. And you want to talk complexity, you know, one person might be in Moldova, another person is in Sierra Leone, or something like that. It really amps up the challenges that many people face when they're just living in the same city and working long hours, you know. So having that shared vision allows for a touchstone where you can come together and say, okay, this is what we're facing right now. You know what's the best strategy for us for the next two or three or five years? Oftentimes it involves, you know, people's the best strategy for us for the next two or three or five years.

Speaker 2: 18:53

Oftentimes it involves, you know people, couples, taking turns, saying one person saying okay, you know, we're going to make the decision right now, the best thing for us jointly is to support partner A's career in a certain location and with a certain commitment of time and energy. And partner B is going to make the following modifications. Luckily, I think, with the fact that work is somewhat decoupling in certain sectors from organizations and there is a lot more opportunity to work remotely or to work in a different type of employment relationship, as a contractor or something of that nature, that it is allowing for more creative solutions, I would say. But really, the fundamental basis, the fundamental strategy, is learn how to really communicate with your spouse, you know, and before you even form a solid partnership, whether it's at marriage or you know, making the choice to move in together, to get out on the table what's my vision, what's really important to me and can we, you know, create a shared vision for our life together and for our our two careers. That's going to be workable.

Speaker 1: 20:02

And you know this conversation is so incredibly important. I mean between my husband and I. The stance we always have on this is it's not his career or mine, it is our career. We see it as a sum total of success and my taking happiness in his success and vice versa. But I can tell you I've had coaching clients where one spouse has had huge issues in seeing the success of the other and getting competitive about you know her career.

Speaker 2: 20:33

If it's not something that you're discussing and really working through, it can end up being a source of resentment in a relationship. That can have a negative impact on the longevity and the quality of the relationship as well. So I think that you know, when I hear people say that they really take pleasure in each other's successes, I think it's a very, very good sign.

Speaker 1: 20:51

The person you will marry is, like they say, one of the single most important decisions for your career. Right, and having that conversation, I remember one of my undergrad students at the university once came to me and said you know, professor, I want to say this to you. I have not shared this with anyone, but I actually want to be a stay at home dad. That's my aspiration, want to be a stay-at-home dad. That's my aspiration. And you know, I feel that I can't talk about this to people because men are expected to have that you know, breadwinner thing and all that, and because and our the class that that I was teaching had to do with this blend and all of that. And I said you know that's great, but just make sure that you know, whoever you decide to get married to, you know, is aware that you have that aspiration, because you don't want to find that out after you get married.

Speaker 1: 21:37

And the reason why he wanted to do it was because his dad was always a traveling dad and he missed him at home and he was like I don't want to do that for my kids.

Speaker 1: 21:48

I just want to see them growing up. You could see that longing he had around the whole parenting thing, and that's where I think it links back to what you were saying as well. Have you sat back and given yourself the space to ask this question If I could design a career that would be a match for what my aspirations are and reflect my values as an individual, what would that look like?

Speaker 2: 22:11

I think part of having a sustainable career is learning to really put a stake in the ground for what it is that you care about most and being aware of where there is a gap between the norms of your occupation or your company or your family or your culture. That is creating some stress for you and that is contributing to you not feeling as satisfied as you could in your career.

Speaker 1: 22:41

I think that these dynamics, especially, you know, in collectivist cultures or in Asia, end up playing a role. So you and your husband are are aligned, but there's pressure on him from his family on how his wife should be, you know, crafting her career or life, and so you know I that should have been blessed. I don't think my in-laws completely understand the the madness I engage in, but they're very supportive and so you know, I know. I think sustainability, as we are seeing, has got so many aspects, and one of it is the personal network that surrounds you is calibrated to the aspiration you have.

Speaker 2: 23:24

Right for sure.

Speaker 1: 23:26

So the fourth one, which one is that yes.

Speaker 2: 23:31

So the fourth element of a sustainable career is about having working through your network to maintain your adaptability and employability. It's funny I was listening to a podcast the HBR has this Women at Work podcast and you know one of the presenters was talking about how networking is sort of a you know a word that a lot of people shy away from. So I'm almost toying with the idea of replacing this just with the word connection, because I find that that's something that feels a lot more authentic to people. Connections as a source of energy and a source of ideas for you, and connections as a place where you can help other people. You can enrich other people's experience and lives by sharing your own knowledge, and it is absolutely remarkable the difference it can make to reach out and have conversations with two or three or four people who are doing something that looks interesting to you or who are living a life that holds some appeal for you, and just to find out a little bit more about what they do, how they got there, what they've learned, and that's a very non-threatening kind of conversation to have.

Speaker 2: 24:42

How do I reach out, etc.

Speaker 2: 24:44

You know, a really basic thing is to think about.

Speaker 2: 24:47

You know, who do I find energizing, who sparks my interest, my excitement, and then simply to think about making a high quality connection with them, not trying to impress them, not trying to put on a pitch, but how do I just fundamentally have a positive, engaging conversation?

Speaker 2: 25:07

There's an exercise that I do really frequently in workshops that's about just making a positive connection with people and it turns out that when you're given a set of instructions and just you know have the intention of making a positive connection, that we all know how to do that because we're human. One difference I do find between men and women is that men are a lot more comfortable engaging in what feels like instrumental networking behavior, you know, asking for favors, that sort of thing, whereas so many women leaders who I work with are incredibly comfortable advocating for their team members, for their direct reports are, you know, always making a conscious effort to. You know, to share their colleagues and their direct reports. Accomplishments, and you know, provide opportunities for learning and for connection, but when it's about themselves being the beneficiary, they feel far less comfortable with it.

Speaker 1: 26:04

Yeah, and that's an interesting conversation. I also think, in terms of, you know, hamini Ibarra has talked about the operational networks and the strategic networks and personal networks, and how men seem to have a lot more strategic networks and women have a lot more operational, which is like get the job done, whereas men kind of gravitate towards those networks where that they're looking for the most strategic aspect of it. You know, it's right and I kind of try and stay away from sweeping generalizations around gender, but I, I I think it's a good idea for people who are listening in right now to kind of evaluate their own networks and say is there, is there a particular type of you know, you know, network that I seem to be over indexing towards, because it's not like one network is is better than the other, as much as you need to have those different types, that variation within the network itself, you know. So to speak.

Speaker 1: 26:58

So, you know, as we kind of start wrapping up, I want to talk about this concept of okay, you know I understand sustainable career and I'm taking agency and all of that, but sometimes you know the, the people that we are working with it's they make it difficult for us to be having the sustainable career. Sometimes they may be, you know, toxic bosses or demanding co-workers or, you know, whatever the the case might be, you know how. What's your suggestion on being able to survive, to make careers more, more sustainable, when you know you've got your all those elements you talked about? You've been looking at your energy, but people around it are making it unsustainable for you to have a career Right.

Speaker 2: 27:42

It matters. What do you do then? Right? What do you do then? Right? And you know it's interesting because, like you know, for the phenomenon of burnout, oftentimes it's really framed as an individual problem, that it's a person who is overworking themselves, who's perfectionistic, who can't handle their workload, et cetera, and there's often a lot of shame around that. So people start to question themselves.

Speaker 2: 28:05

But when we look at the research you know 40 years of research on burnout the biggest factors generally not in every single situation, but kind of across the literature have to do with interpersonal elements of the job. You know, so I do a fair amount of teaching around performance management and oftentimes, you know, people will have the experience of having somebody who's underperforming on their team, either in terms of their output or in terms of their attitude and their organizational citizenship behaviors. They might be cynical or withdrawn. So then what I do is I get participants to reflect on their own careers and think about a time when they were underperforming and to identify what were the factors that might have been contributing to that. And a lot of them are these factors that you just mentioned. You know, being in a toxic environment, or having a boss, you know, who has low emotional intelligence or God forbid narcissism, which is like the worst kind of person to work for. Or you know other things like having being in a matrix where there's a lack of clarity about your priorities or there's, you know, inadequate resources lots of different things that can play into this.

Speaker 2: 29:10

But, as I said earlier, I really think it's vital for people to keep an eye on. You know, our own internal fuel gauge. Where am I with respect to generally, how positive I'm feeling? You know, how inspired am I by what I'm trying to do? How much of an impact do I feel I'm having? How capable do I feel? How well do I feel? And if those things are all pretty low, that is a signal to step back, to take stock. You know, to think about maybe getting some support from a coach or, you know, checking in with colleagues and seeing other ways that we can organize our work a little bit differently or that we can bring greater positivity into what we're doing, because it is often the case. I mean, there are plenty of situations in which I've seen somebody working for a real tyrant who is making their work utterly miserable, you know.

Speaker 2: 30:02

So when people burn out, typically, there are three main symptoms that they experience burnout. Typically, there are three main symptoms that they experience. There's a sense of exhaustion, particularly emotional exhaustion, where you feel like you just don't have anything more to give and you're kind of running in place just to try and get the basics done. The second thing is a growing sense of cynicism, so work that once seemed meaningful seems less so and you feel cynical about your organization, about your boss, about your colleagues, about what you're doing. And the third thing is a reduced sense of personal efficacy. And that last one makes it really really tough to dig your way out.

Speaker 2: 30:39

Because usually what happens when we feel like we're getting overwhelmed, we feel like we're underperforming, falling behind, we just dig in.

Speaker 2: 30:47

You know, we stay up later, we bring home more work, we cut back on our social engagements, et cetera, try and devote more time and more energy to work, and that is absolutely a losing proposition. It's vitally important that we think about what are those other things we need to take care of? Am I getting together and laughing with people who I love? For me, the number one hallmark of success in life is how much time do you spend laughing with people that you love? So bringing them together in terms of what's the purpose, what's the logic of our work methods, how can we work better together? So that is something that's often possible, but it's also vital to be able to recognize, when've done, what you can do in a situation, and the situation is fundamentally diminishing. It is going to hold you back, and that's where you start to lean into your connections and refocus yourself on what is it that you'd like to be doing now and who can you connect to and find out about possibilities?

Speaker 1: 31:51

But you know, burnout as a network phenomenon is something we don't talk about enough, and I think that leaders need to pay attention to it. So in some of the sessions that I run on the role of people and culture in digital transformation, this is a question that I get them to think about. It's going to require personal shifts on the part of people and culture in digital transformation. This is a question that I get them to think about. It's going to require personal shifts on the part of everybody and their identity and their relationship to work. How do we make it work for the whole group versus? You know it's pedal to the metal and let's kind of get it done, because there is a human cost to this.

Speaker 1: 32:26

You know digital transformation that so many companies are on and the human transformation aspect of it part of it is also re-looking at what's happening to people's careers and jobs that they're being asked to undertake, and I'm guessing that is probably a source of stress and burnout as well. My job is not what I thought it was supposed to be Right, right, absolutely. It's become something else. I am supposed to be Right. Right, it just absolutely. It's become something else. I am supposed to be something else Right.

Speaker 2: 32:51

right, and it makes it a lot easier to navigate that kind of transition if you do have some sort of overriding shared sense of purpose and you're navigating that transition in the company of people who you respect and you care about and they feel like they care about you, you know and you're valued. That is a much more supportive environment to go through that refocusing of thinking. Okay, I actually have a different set of objectives now and I need to develop some different skills, and some of the stuff that I relied on that was great for me in the last iteration isn't particularly helpful now.

Speaker 1: 33:24

Yeah, it's the, you know, constant reiteration and reinvention. We're out of time, Monique, but I so enjoyed this conversation, as I'm sure our audience will too.

Speaker 2: 33:35

I absolutely believe that every single person has the capacity and the right to experience joy at work, and there are many things that you can do to increase your experience of joy and fulfillment and growth at work, and I am here to help anybody who would like my help. Thanks so much, tanvi.

Speaker 1: 34:03

Thank you. That concludes this episode of Leaders Upgraded. But wait, your journey is just getting started. Go to wwwleadersupgradedcom for more insights, more inspiration and more tools to continue the journey, and if you have someone who you would like to nominate for the podcast or a particular topic you'd like us to cover, then also visit wwwleadersupgradedcom and let us know. If you like this episode, please do share it, please do subscribe to the podcast, and I look forward to continued upgrades with you. Take care.