Accurate Hunts, a life outdoors.

Ep. 17 From the ABC to Accurate Hunts, Cass Fleming on her Hunting journey.

• Dodge Keir • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Join us as we sit down with Cass Fleming, a dedicated new hunter from Victoria. From her first adrenaline-pumping shot on a Sambar hind to featuring as a cover girl on an unusually pro hunting article written by the ABC, Cass shares her fascinating journey into the world of hunting. Our conversation kicks off with a memorable tale of our initial meeting at Nundle State Forest during the Australian Hunters Club annual camp, spiced up by an unexpected car trouble and a collaborative fix involving the whole group. Cass's recent feature in an ABC article spotlights her passion and the growing community of new hunters in Victoria, shedding light on the positive portrayal of hunting in the media. 

Dive deeper into the evolving dynamics of the hunting community as Cass discusses continuous learning and the value of respect among peers. We explore the nuances of hunting etiquette and the shift towards a more open, collaborative environment fostered by social media and modern resources. Cass's story highlights the camaraderie and mutual support within the hunting world, emphasizing the importance of building friendships and sharing experiences. We also tackle how to normalize hunting activities and make them more approachable to the public, particularly through sharing game meat in familiar forms like sausage rolls.

In a candid chat, we navigate the challenges and triumphs of being a woman in predominantly male-dominated hunting spaces. Cass opens up about the significance of self-confidence and personal responsibility in feeling included, and reflects on the role of media in challenging stereotypes of female hunters. We round off the episode with practical insights into field butchering, choosing the right hunting rifles, and the logistics of transporting meat post-hunt. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or curious about the lifestyle, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the motivations, challenges, and community spirit that drive the hunting world.

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If you have a question, comment, topic, gear review suggestion or a guest that you'd like to hear on the show, shoot an email to accuratehunts@gmail.com or via our socials.

Cass Fleming:

Music. I guess just how you conduct yourself Everything before pulling the trigger, and then everything after as well. I'd never butchered an animal before, or didn't know sort of how to treat the meat once it is butchered. So I wanted to do a course, so I went along and did the course. If you do have the opportunity I was presented this opportunity to be involved in something that I care about I'm not going to be like, I'm not going to assume that I'm just there because it's token, because I'm female.

Dodge Keir:

I'm sure death's probably not new to you, but how did that feel the first time you physically yourself shot an animal? Welcome back to another episode of accurate hunts life outdoors we have tonight with us cass joining us from marabinol. That's right. Yes, like I said it, right, cass fleming cass and I met on the side of a dusty road at nundle state forest, I think officially the first time yes, that's right.

Cass Fleming:

Yes, we did Drive along. Saw some interesting characters in camo on the side of the road.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, our camo obviously wasn't working.

Cass Fleming:

No.

Dodge Keir:

It's an awkward situation when you're in a state forest and you're walking along the road with a rifle. I feel that I'm torn between hiding, because it's just easier to hide or you know you're not doing anything wrong, but avoiding the confrontation by hiding.

Cass Fleming:

I think if you hide, you have to make sure you've done a really good job at it, because it's way creepier to have someone trying to like hide and not being successful rather than just going about their business.

Dodge Keir:

That's right, it's a half. Yeah, you can't do it by half, because if you do it by half it's really creepy.

Cass Fleming:

It is. It's really effective, I think.

Dodge Keir:

I can't remember who. It was told me that I think it was one of the boys from one of the other podcasts. They were saying that they got pulled up by someone on the road and the cops ended up turning up. They were in a state forest. They weren't doing anything wrong, but the ruling was that she said that she felt threatened because he had a firearm. Right he didn't threaten her.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

But she felt threatened and that was enough to warrant, you know, a warning from the cops. Because she felt threatened.

Cass Fleming:

That's a tricky situation, isn't it?

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, especially when you're not doing anything wrong. It's like shooting a bow and arrow in a public place, like at a field or sports field or something. As long as you're not, as long as no one's physically feeling threatened by it, it's completely legal.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

So, but we weren't just walking around the forest in Nundle that's not how we stumbled across each other, but we were up there for the Australian Hunters Club annual camp last year.

Cass Fleming:

That's exactly right.

Dodge Keir:

I was expecting to see hunters not confronting Adam. No, no, you didn't feel threatened. No, I did not Were you lost. You came from the wrong direction.

Cass Fleming:

I was on my way back from a road trip to Fraser Island.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, that's right I was?

Cass Fleming:

I was heading South Yep.

Dodge Keir:

And you had some mechanical issues.

Cass Fleming:

I did yes, my, my car, ron. His name's Ron, cause he's Burgundy. He um his radiator went on the way down on the side of the road Yep, so that took a couple of days to fix.

Dodge Keir:

Cost you a day. I think on the way out you had a flat tire too.

Cass Fleming:

I did on the way out. Yes, you came to the rescue and a few other boys came along.

Dodge Keir:

You had all the tools Just at the right time.

Cass Fleming:

I did, I did and, yeah, was on my way to getting it done, but happy to receive some help to gather the logs and jack it all up because it was, yeah, a bit unstable ground, but we got there. Good little team project.

Dodge Keir:

It was. It was a good team event too that one.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, it really was. Yeah, it was funny circling back to that and I've just been playing with this in front of me and not related to the conversation at all. But I have a little pocket knife here that a good friend of mine made for me. He's got my name engraved on it. Dr Yannick made for me. I think you can buy a kit and he sort of handmade the scales, but that there is actually the shin bone from the red stag that I shot on that trip. Oh, how good. So I sent him the bone.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, great way to commemorate.

Dodge Keir:

And he made the wife and I matching set out of it.

Cass Fleming:

How beautiful.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, looking forward to that. So Cass is with us tonight for multiple reasons. One because she's really enjoying hunting and the journey that she's on and we'll get into that, but mostly you might recognise her from everywhere on Facebook in the last I don't know 36, 48 hours or so.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, the last three days.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah and yeah. Cass was featured in an article that was done by the ABC Rhiannon I can't remember the last name.

Cass Fleming:

Stephens.

Dodge Keir:

Stephens was the journalist that produced quite a well-put-together and topical piece about the influx of new hunters and the way things are going down in Victoria specifically. But it was nice to see and this is the general consensus of the comments is it's nice to see a mainstream media do a you know, nice fluffy piece about hunting and it wasn't, you know, spun in any particular bad way.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, absolutely. It was a great project to be a part of and when I was, you know, first considering it, when I was approached about it, I had obviously my hesitations because you know what you sort of hear and see in the media generally. But you know, I asked the question is this pro-hunting, anti-hunting? What's the general vibe of it? Rhiannon had said it's balanced view. It's just you giving um, giving an account of of the story, of my intentions and why I got into hunting, what my motivation was. But I think it actually turned out to be really positive um, so it was promoted. I guess it was promised to me that it would be at least neutral, not anti-hunting, but I feel as though it had a really positive spin on it and it was a really really nice take on on why people are passionate about hunting and what it means.

Dodge Keir:

So yeah, she did a really good job, a really good job pulling it together, but you guys. I mean, there was yourself wally chang um pete from baw baw and chris waters yeah um, and that was. You know, it was a good mix of newbies, people on their way, more experienced people with Pete, and I think that was a really good cross-section to show that part of the industry.

Cass Fleming:

I agree I think Rhianna did a great job tying it all together and sort of the different components of a hunting journey and different avenues that you can go down if you're looking to do hunting. But I thought also more broadly within the whole episode of Landline. Abc did a pretty good job at curating the whole idea of those. You know the fruit and where your fruit comes from and like just opening people's minds up to more supply chain and, yeah, how you access the food that we eat and meat is definitely a part of that.

Dodge Keir:

Alternative options. Alternative options yeah, was Rhianna. Did she make clear her personal opinions at all?

Cass Fleming:

She didn't. I don't think she had. She was very curious, I think it's more her stance on it was that she just it's not something that she had had a background in and was just really wanting to see what it was all about and she was really great to spend a day with actually. So she came out for a hunt with me. I picked her up. We went out in the high country, so we stayed in Benalla and that was our base so that I could pick her up first thing in the morning.

Dodge Keir:

She jumped in the car with me Was it her and a cameraman, no, just her.

Cass Fleming:

So she came with just all the equipment herself. We jumped in the car, drove a little way into the bush and then went out for the day, so she was stalking around the bush with me documenting the whole things. We had little chats, little whispers in the bush, which was really nice and it was great. And then on the drive there and on the way home, that's when we got to have some just general chats about ourselves and our lives and what we're all about, and it was a really nice experience. Actually, is that your first time being on TV?

Dodge Keir:

And it was a really nice experience actually, is that?

Cass Fleming:

your first time being on TV, yeah, first. Yes, I have been in a movie clip, not a what are they called a video clip, like a song video clip in the past as an extra, but you know it was definitely Not as the lead singer. Oh, no, no, it was. Yeah, someone I used to work with their daughter was like a producer or something and they're like we need extras. So no, yes, definitely my first time of being front and centre on TV.

Dodge Keir:

Did you think that in your first time being on TV, some of your first words would be and here you have, deer poop.

Cass Fleming:

I didn't. You know. If you had asked me before I started hunting, like what will I be on TV for? It probably wouldn't have been my guess. And that's funny, actually, because prior to hunting I never would have thought it could be so exciting to find poo Like it. Just it would not have entered my consciousness that, yeah, that you could be like. Oh my gosh, like this sign, I'm on the right track. There's definitely deer here.

Dodge Keir:

You don't have any kids, do you?

Cass Fleming:

I do not no, no.

Dodge Keir:

So it's just. I'm on my third now and he's four and a half nearly five months, and my camera roll. Not so much with this one, but the first two is poop. It's just an exciting thing with children. There's different styles of poop, colours of poop, consistencies of poop, how far they can get it up their armpits. Yeah, poop's an, they can get it up their armpits. It's, yeah, poops and an exciting topic for those types of things. But it was a good representation of beginner hunters. And then it broke into Wally talking about you know why he does what he does on his phone.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, yeah, and.

Dodge Keir:

I haven't met. Actually, I did meet Wally down at Deer Expo.

Cass Fleming:

Yes, yep.

Dodge Keir:

He was down there just chatting with Chris, but I seem to think that that you know, he's just an older guy that is really enjoying learning in life and he's like, well, why can't I just get other people to learn with me at the same time? Yeah and that's why he's hosting what he's doing. So you went and did a course at his place I did, yes.

Cass Fleming:

So that was my like sort of first experience in learning about deer hunting. So I've grown up around firearms They've never been foreign or exotic but I wasn't into hunting. I knew of hunting, never had a problem, probably actually had curiosity about it when I was younger, but not deliberately pursued it to get into it. So I was doing long-range rifle shooting. So I was pretty confident that if I found a deer so I was doing long range rifle shooting so I was pretty confident that if I found a deer, so I was shooting out to 900 meters. And well, you know, at 900 it's quite a big target. But like I was quite proficient within 300 meters and I thought, well, deer are going to be closer than that. So I was pretty confident that if I found a deer I'd be able to take an accurate shot.

Cass Fleming:

But it was everything before and everything after pulling the trigger that was a real mystery to me. So how to find deer, what are the ethics that go along with hunting, and the etiquette as well in terms of when you you know, if you get to know other hunters and, yeah, I guess, just how you conduct yourself, everything before pulling the trigger and then everything after as well. I'd never butchered animal before or um didn't know sort of how to treat the meat once it is butchered, um, so I wanted to do a course. I went along and did the course with naturally sufficient, which was excellent, um, it was a whole weekend and we did all the different legal considerations, treatment of firearms, um the butchering. We looked at recipes and the whole process, I guess, which was really great. I've also done a course with the ADA. I'm a member of the Australian Deer Association as well.

Dodge Keir:

Member, aren't you on the committee?

Cass Fleming:

I am on the committee. Yes, I do like to get involved, so yeah, which is very exciting also.

Dodge Keir:

Head badge maker. I have offered to get involved, so yeah, which is very exciting also, is that head badge maker.

Cass Fleming:

I have offered to make badges, yes.

Dodge Keir:

Side note Cass made some badges for the Hunters Club catch-up.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

That's a little side note, but yeah, so you've worked your way into ADA and then you did a course with them. They do a beginner hunter course too, yeah yes, which was actually really fantastic the way.

Cass Fleming:

So the one I did with naturally sufficient, was before I'd actually gone out myself into the wild. So, um, it was really a good starting place. But then I did go out a number of times. I did a guided hunt with pete from board board adventures, who you mentioned earlier. Um, which was fantastic.

Cass Fleming:

So it's not, I guess, like if you don't know what a guided hunt is, you might think that it's like what you might see in movies, where someone takes you and puts you on an animal and all you do is pull the trigger. Certainly not the case with pete. He is very educational, so we would drive along and then he'd point out the window where there was marks, you know, where you could see um, tracks, um, or he'd point out the poo and talk about the wind and what we're doing and as we were doing the process just putting, I guess, the practical elements in place with the theoretical elements that we'd learnt, which was really helpful. We did get close to deer a couple of times when I went out with him, but the wind was not kind and didn't get close enough to take a shot. So, yeah, anyway, then I'd gone out a number of times.

Cass Fleming:

I had one. I've so far had one successful hunt, which was on a trip away with some guys that I'd met through the ADA, and so that was great. I had my real-world experience. And then I did the course with the ADA, and it was actually really nice because some of the things that I had learnt prior were in the course, so it was, I guess, handy to see just how much I have learnt in the last two years, but then there were heaps of new gems as well. I think you'll never stop learning, and I certainly won't ever feel as though I have reached a point of all knowledge, so it was nice to receive all these new little pieces of information that I could assimilate in with my current knowledge and just keep building. And meeting new people as well is always great, it's. I really enjoy the hunting community, so like to to be a part of it, and it was a weekend away where you get all your meals cooked for you and get to just hang out and have good times sounds like a pretty good little holiday.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, yeah, it was great at the start there. You spoke about etiquette and how that works as being a new hunter. Do you want to share a little bit about that and what, what your feelings are on that? Because, yeah, I feel like at different stages of the I don't want to call it a ladder maybe different stages of progress, the etiquette changes a little bit, because you've got, I want to say, people more experienced than you and then people less experienced than you, and then your responsibilities to each as you travel down that chain.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, I guess I don't like to ever assume what a situation is. I like to be quite explicit with what I'm hoping for and also like to know what other people's expectations are. And because there are outfitters that will take you out and you pay to go on a guided hunt or, you know, there are some experienced people that have probably just as much or even more knowledge than those people which some people want to take people out as friends and some people do it as a business. So I didn't want to ever be asking anyone to give me their knowledge for free, unless it was something that they're wanting to do as part of a community. So it's like that kind of the fact that for some people it's a day job and for some people it's a hobby um, not wanting to sort of blur any lines or, um make assumptions about what was happening, but then also as well, you know, if someone were to share knowledge with me, that might be knowledge that they've built up over a really long time.

Cass Fleming:

That's specific to an area that they may not want to share. I think a lot of people do share their knowledge and that's really lovely when they want to, but I just think that's their IP. They've done the work to gather that and if they're wanting to share that with me, my assumption is, unless they say to share it further than myself, I wouldn't want to do that. So it's just making sure that I'm, I guess, being mindful of the community that I'm coming into and wanting to be respectful of everyone in it.

Dodge Keir:

We spoke today when we were getting ready for this, but we spoke about my thoughts on the way I think the community is changing in that passing on of knowledge. And I think that I mean I'm a first-generation hunter. It's no secret, I've spoken about it a lot and I think that's quite prevalent in today's community. But I think that that's affecting the way that we share knowledge in a good way, meaning that traditionally that knowledge was passed from father to son or uncle or great-uncle or whatever usually a male influence older in life and then that's passed on through the lineage of name son, nephew, whatever and then it's expected that it stays there until they pass it onto their sons. But I feel that with this increase in first-generation hunters that don't have that, we're leaning on social media and blogs and forums and TV shows and YouTubes for our information. But once we get involved in a community and we find some other first-generation hunters, we all seem a little bit more excited to share that knowledge. Yeah, absolutely.

Dodge Keir:

I think that's well. I think it's a positive. I'm not sure where it's going to head long-term, but I mean, I probably wasn't like that initially because I felt a bit guarded about my information, because that's what everyone did, but now it's really turning a corner. I think it's very, and we see it in. There's an Australian Hunters Club chat for members and someone will put up hey, have you ever hunted in X? And someone will message them or put a message up and say I've sent you a PM, let's chat.

Dodge Keir:

And that just doesn't. I just don't think that's the way it was, and I think that's the way it is now, and I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes.

Cass Fleming:

Oh, absolutely, and my experience has been that most people that I've had chats with have been happy to share not always explicit details about their location, necessarily, but a lot of you know information about how to best hunt or different tips, and I think there's a lot of one percenters that you gather along your journey that will ultimately help lead you towards success. So I've had really good experience. I guess I just don't go in expecting that people will just hand me all their knowledge, but, like, as you get to know people and then you are part of the community, then there is that sense of camaraderie and everyone wanting to sort of work together, which is really nice, and I feel a personal responsibility to equip myself. So, you know, I've done a lot of my own research and I've done the courses and read different resources to try and find my own information. But there's something really nice about being able to share the journey with other people, with like-minded people. So it's not just about you know, going in and trying to get all their knowledge, it's about becoming friends and having shared experiences, which I find really enjoyable.

Cass Fleming:

And you mentioned before about, I guess, like the changing landscape, and I'm always really mindful of not wanting to discount anyone or anyone else's experience in their hunting journey, because sometimes people talk about hunting and how they've copped a lot of flack in their hunting journey and so you know that's unfortunate, that that has been the case In my case. Most people that I've talked about my hunting with, most non-hunters that I've talked about, they've been more curious than anything, and obviously there's some people that are not interested in talking about it and that's fine. I don't feel the need to convince anyone of why hunting is great, but, yeah, a lot of people are just yeah, curious. How did you get into that? Oh, that's, oh, that's surprising. What's that all about?

Cass Fleming:

Or, um, which is really really nice, and I I hope that more and more hunters have that experience as they're going through their journey, so that it's not it's not. I don't see it as taboo. I talk about it very matter of fact. If someone's like, what are you up to on the weekend? I'm going out for a hunt, or you know, I, you know, made a curry and it had venison and it was delicious, and um, yeah, I, I don't um, I don't assume that people will have a negative um view of of hunting, but I know they might, but I'm not going to make that assumption.

Dodge Keir:

I had a client the other day and I just in conversation, just fencing related client, and I said, oh, what do you do for work? And he lent in and he said, oh, I'm a magistrate.

Dodge Keir:

Okay, you know you know yeah just like what you're saying, then I'm going hunting like it normal. I don't know why he felt the need to particularly whisper that. Yes, it's not like he'd seen me, you know, at his work before, in front of him fighting a case or anything, but you know I'm always pretty loud and proud about what we do. Yeah, and have you used your food to, you know, share with non-hunters at work or anything?

Cass Fleming:

Not food to, you know, share with non-hunters at work or anything. Not so much, I guess, like I haven't harvested a lot of meat myself, in that I've shared it with friends and family, but not I haven't had it in the quantities I guess that I have taken into work. But it's certainly something that I would do in the future. Yeah, probably something that's really like palatable, maybe some sausage rolls or something that's just little bite size, little morsel to just, you know, get people started yeah, I wouldn't say confused, but I try to.

Dodge Keir:

when I'm introducing food like game meat to non-hunters, I stick with something they already know. Like you said, sausage rolls, yeah, and just change one ingredient, just change the protein. Yeah. Don't go with something crazy and say, oh, this is, you know, backstrap stuff with mushrooms that I've harvested and found myself in the forest. That's you know.

Cass Fleming:

that's a bit confronting for me, yeah, a bit of tongue just like slithered off with a bit of cheese.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, it's not something I've ever eaten tongue. I don't think. I don't think I've ever gone down that path. I haven't either.

Cass Fleming:

I haven't either, but at one of the camps that I was at recently, yeah, one of the guys was boiling up a tongue and then slicing it off and, I don't know, garnishing it with something.

Dodge Keir:

Apparently it's really yum, the same with heart. I mean. I have eaten it. It's not one of the ones I go for first. I was just in Darwin two weeks ago and there's a picture of the client holding a buffalo heart and this thing is just ginormous, like the size of a dinner plate. That's like a whole meal in itself.

Dodge Keir:

With the circling back to the community side of things, part of, I'm going to mention Chris again. But Chris is the reason that you know you and I met originally. I suppose you know he started the australian hunters club for certain reasons and one of those main reasons was to start a community of you know, like-minded people and it's created like a. You know this. When you say like-minded, we have one thing in common, which is hunting, but it's such a broad spectrum of knowledge base and skill level. And one thing I really like about it is people have the opportunity to leave at any time and most of the people that do that are ones that say I didn't get anything out of it, and I'm actually, I think you are as well. We're on the admin side of one of the Facebook pages attached to that club.

Cass Fleming:

And one of my questions to those people that want to leave is what did you put in?

Dodge Keir:

100? Yep, what did you put in? And this goes back to any club, and I see this here with our local hunting club. I've got it here on my shirt, would you care? Every hunters and english and there's some members of that that just I was mentioning to someone the other day. There's one particular member and he's pretty new to it all. He'd be one of the first people I ask to go hunting if I just want to go on a casual hunt, because he's the first one to put his hand up to help. He's the last one there cleaning up. You know he comes to all the events and he lives the furthest away.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

You know he's put in so much, so you know more than willing to. I'm not saying I don't help others either, but it's definitely nicer helping someone who is doing these things in being involved in clubs without expecting anything in return absolutely.

Cass Fleming:

I think, like you said, what you, you have to put something in to get something out of it. Um, and there's a lot of joy in doing that too. Like that's sometimes when you're sort of not that it's in the trenches, but when you're doing the work with people. That's when you get to bond a little bit and you share the load and you know you want to do more with the people that are contributing to an organisation, rather than the ones that are just sitting around waiting for it to all be given to them. I mean, in my journey, like with the Australian Hunters Club, there's the option to host a hunt, where you can, as you know, invite people to come along and go out for a hunt with you.

Cass Fleming:

When I first joined, I didn't know what I was doing, so I'm not going to be like, hey, I'm going to host a hunt because I mean, yeah, sure, let's, we can go wander around the bush together, but I'm still acquiring my knowledge and happy to impart it once as I gather it. My knowledge, and happy to impart it once as I gather it. And even sorry, quick detour, but even when I took out Rhiannon from the ABC, I said to her so long as this is not an educational thing, because I mean, I know quite a bit of stuff now that I've acquired, but I'm not presuming to be a teacher in this space or an expert in this space. You can come out and we can go in the bush and I can, you know, share things that I've learnt, but I'm not going to be teaching or instructing. I'm not, like you know, proclaiming to do that, but anyway.

Cass Fleming:

So through the Australian Hunters Club, I knew I couldn't host a hunt but I did a couple of pub dinners and I volunteered at the expo and the wild deer expo, but then also the Mansfield Hunting and Fishing Expo, because that's ways in which I can give of my time to the club and then, you know, in return there's benefits that I get. And it's the same with the ADA. I've now volunteered to be on the committee and happy to make badges and you know I've got all sorts of ideas. I'm trying not to do too much all guns blazing, but yeah, I really like investing in the things that I care about and I think often some people, yeah, they're like oh, you know, I'm not getting anything out of it, but if they're not putting themselves into it either, then it's not really surprising.

Dodge Keir:

I think that applies to everything in life.

Cass Fleming:

Definitely.

Dodge Keir:

Work, sport, any hobby you want to take on. I think that the majority of my friends I'm going to say 95% now have come from the hunting community and I had a young fellow at work the other day. He's an apprentice working for one of the other mobs and you know, he's only 17 or something and he was going out with his mates that's right, it was Friday. He was going out with his mates from school who he hasn't seen and I said said, are you still friends with many friends from school? He said yeah, all of them.

Dodge Keir:

And I remember at some point in my life I was like I don't really have anything in common with those people I went to school with and you start to drift away from that. And then that's when I've sort of accumulated and found this circle of friends that now my best friends they're all have come from this hunting community yeah, I've met some great people in my journey as well, so I think it's really many bad ones you know what, through through I've, I've come across people that I'm like I don't want to be.

Cass Fleming:

I would not choose to be friends with you, um, but not as in like when volunteer theo, like you get some interesting characters come up and have a chat. But no, through my sort of I would say, not official channels, but through the clubs that I've joined, I've not met anyone that I just thought, nah, you're a bad egg, I'm not. You know, I don't want to know you. There's some people that I get along more than others, just like anywhere in life. You know, you find your people and there are some people that you really like and some people that you're like, happy to be around but not going to be besties with. But no, all pretty good experiences, yeah.

Dodge Keir:

With the article. I've been trying to think about how to word this question. I don't really know how, so I'm just going to say it.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

I think it got shared better because there was a female on the front. I think it got shared better because there was a female on the front. I think it had a much larger, wider spread impact. And I just want to ask how do I even say it Barriers to entry into the hunting industry? Being a female, have you found it's been like eaten? You can't even compare because you're not a male. But you know, what's your experience being a female starting in industry?

Cass Fleming:

yeah so, because people have asked me this before, like what's it like? And yeah, so sometimes I will be at a meeting and it, you know, I remember one of the ADA meetings that I went to. There was probably like 70 blokes there and the percentage of women was me Like um, absolutely it is male dominated, but for me, I think it's like a lot of things in life, whatever you look for, you will find. And if I looked for reasons to feel like I was unwelcome because I'm female, you could probably find it. But also if I look for reasons that people are including me, I'll find that. But also if I look for reasons that people are including me, I'll find that.

Cass Fleming:

And so one example is I remember being at one meeting I think it was maybe like the second time I was there this is at the ADA and I walked in and, if you know, a few people were there, sort of chatting and stuff, and no one came up and said hi, I had met a few people before, but I think they maybe weren't there when I arrived this particular time. And you know, I absolutely could have been like oh, I'm a woman, they don't want to talk to me, but I don't like to make that assumption. Everyone has a different, like different skills around social skills and how they can interact with people. Some blokes don't know how to talk to women I'm not going to assume that you know like that's anything offensive. But anyway, in this moment I was like well, I have also not approached anyone, so I'll just go and chat to someone. Went over, found someone's like hey, hi, are you new here too? And they're like yeah, this is my. I think it was their responsibility for deciding how they show up in an area and also keeping their own emotions and perceptions in check. Obviously, there are some differences of what my experience would probably be to men. So, in terms of I want to be a part of a community, I like to have friends in the activities that I do and my pool of people to make those friends in is predominantly men. It's not like there's men and women and I'm just. I'm like I just want to be friends with the blokes, like that's my option, like it is a bunch of blokes and that's fine.

Cass Fleming:

Um, I remember when I went to my first camp um with the ada, like actually, oh, the first camp with um, australian hunters club was awesome as well, I definitely felt extremely welcome there. There was eight of us and we were out in um razorback hut, which was really cool, um, but I arrived in the daytime then, so that was, that was cool. We had, you know, chats around the bar and stuff. But this other camp, my first ADA camp I arrived at about 9.30 at night, went in through like this bumpy entryway, so I accidentally pressed my horn as I was arriving. So I'm like beep, oh hey, everyone. That was my entrance.

Cass Fleming:

That was my entrance and I rock up and there's probably like 20 blokes sitting around the fire. I had met a few before but it was heaps of new people and stuff and a few people were like, oh you know like, good on you for coming out, like you know like, but it just it didn't feel weird to me. I was like this is a space I want to be in and no one has told me that it's not for me. I don't, I it's not like. There's hunting and women's hunting and that's the one I'm meant to be in and that's the one I'm meant to be in. It's hunting and anyone can go to it. It just happens to attract more men and that's fine. I would love to encourage more people to get into hunting, but anyone that's interested in hunting, not specifically just targeting women. But I guess my point if you know if I was talking to anyone about hunting and what my journey is like it's that go in open-minded and I guess don't try, and I've not wanted to change the space or say that you've got to do this, this and this for me to feel welcome. I decide whether I'm confident enough to be in that space or not, and I feel that I am.

Cass Fleming:

No one has been, no one has said oh, what are you doing here as a woman? A lot of people are good on your love, and I mean some. Some people even have a problem with being called love. I don't, I am lovely, call me love, that's fine. Um, I don't need men to change who they are or change how they behave for me to feel welcome. And if I did, then that's that's for me to solve and work out and remedy myself, not to, not to begrudge an organization that's running how it is already and it's the same with you.

Cass Fleming:

Know, there's a few people that have made comments about you know. Oh, some blokes don't want the drama, they don't want women, they don't want this. And I'm like, mate, if you don't want to be friends with a woman, if you don't have the capacity for that, don't befriend women. Like, don't get your knickers in a twist. It's not that hard to figure out. I don't want to. I don't want to be friends with everyone either. So it's, I don't know. Yeah, anyway, I think. Sorry, I think I've gone off on tangents to your original question, but yeah, it's, it is possible that there. I mean it probably is true that the article was shared more because it's female, and but that's that's like a lot of things in life If something pops up that's unusual, people are intrigued by it.

Dodge Keir:

I think that Rhiannon did a good job in choosing that particular photo, and I'd be interested to know whether she just personally liked that photo more than you know one of Wally or one of Pete or you know, whatever it was.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

But I think that a really, especially coming from the ABC news channels and landline really challenge some of their regular watchers who you know might see hunting as a purely male-dominated sport, and they're like hold on, there's a female with a firearm. That goes against what I kind of picture in my mind as the stereotype.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, I'm interested, I'm intrigued, yes, and hopefully so, and it's certainly not like I'm trailblazing at all. There are some amazing women that are in the hunting realm. So Emma Sears is one of the speakers that was at the ADA weekend and she was fantastic. She's been hunting for a number of years and is a really great example, and there's heaps of others that you know have been doing it for a really long time. So it's not like I'm coming along being like I'm the first to do this, but you know, I think it is uncommon or less common.

Dodge Keir:

So it's fine. If that causes intrigue, so be it, so be it. One name that I remember from back in the day and I don't know where she's going actually I should try and find out but uh, christy basani is her name and she actually competed in a. It was in texas in a huntress, uh, heart of the huntress, I think it was called competition, and she was from queensland. She was a bow hunter and you know she ended up on the project and old Waleed gave her a bit of curry on there about. She's a paramedic and they're saying you know how can you save lives but take lives? But the way she handed herself in that interview was just, you know, it was great, it was great for the industry and but that you know she made it. If there was an Australian male overseas competing in that course, there'd be no interest in that from the project.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah.

Cass Fleming:

You know what it's always. These things are supply and demand. You can't control what people are interested in or what they'll pick up on it, but if you do have the opportunity I was presented this opportunity to be involved in something that I care about I'm not going to be like, I'm not going to assume that I'm just there because it's token, because I'm female. Maybe that is part of it or part of the agenda or whatever. But if, at the end of the day, it promotes something that I love and I'm able to contribute to it positively, why would I not be involved? It just makes sense.

Dodge Keir:

Just makes sense. I want to circle way back to something you mentioned and it was that you went on your first hunt where you were successful and you were with someone who was ADA related. But I want to. You asked me today. You're like, oh, what are we going to talk about? And for me it's. I really enjoy hearing stories where you get to recount the emotions that you actually go through, because to me I don't remember the first time I shot something particularly. I don't remember, you know, the first time I handled a dead animal of some capacity I think it was probably a chicken at mum and dad's when we killed some chickens. But you know, I'm always intrigued at the way people who have just come into the sport, maybe later in life, like yourself you said you've grown up in a farming industry or farming family and things, so I'm sure death's probably not new to you, but how did that feel to the first time you physically yourself shot an animal?

Cass Fleming:

Lots of emotions, none that I would label as negative. They're just all relevant and necessary. So my first time that I was successful I guess I'll set the scene for you. It was early in the morning, probably a couple hundred metres off a fire track was walking along and saw um, saw a hind grazing just on the just down a gully and up on the opposite face, and it was fantastic. She was actually completely in the open. So, as opposed to in the past when generally it's you know, just a tiny little part and I'm potentially out in the open, um, but anyway I was was hidden by some trees, which gave me the opportunity to sit down and get into a really stable position For my first shot. That was really comforting.

Cass Fleming:

I felt that I was certain that I would take an ethical shot because I was able to see the full vital area.

Cass Fleming:

I was able to get into a stable position and then really calmly take a shot.

Cass Fleming:

I already know that I won't take a running shot, um, where I am in my journey, I don't feel proficient enough to do so and I've decided that well before I go out into the bush, what, what I will or won't do, what I will or won't shoot um and that's not just in terms of the setting is I won't take a running shot, but I also wouldn't take a shot if the hind had a baby. There's certain things that I just won't do, so in this scenario it was perfect conditions for me. So, yeah, took my shot, waited, you know, 10 minutes or so, then went to follow up. Within probably 10 more minutes, um found, found the hind. She um would have only probably traveled 30 meters from where I shot her to where she laid to rest, and then it. You obviously go on to the process of starting to harvest the meat. And it felt right because I already knew why I was doing what I'm doing. I knew that this animal was peacefully living in the bush and then, very quickly after that, was dead At peace.

Cass Fleming:

At peace, that you know that it hadn't been farmed, she hadn't been farmed at all. There was no, you know, transport trauma. You know that it hadn't been farmed, she hadn't been farmed at all. There was no, you know, transport trauma. You know getting trucked around, so that I felt a sense of satisfaction in knowing where this particular meat was going to come from.

Cass Fleming:

I felt a great deal of gratitude, because the necessary exchange to consume meat is that an animal will die. You're forced to face that reality when you hunt. You can't pretend that it's just meat, it's an animal that then becomes meat, and so there's a real, I guess, respect to the process when that happens. And there, and there is a measure of sorrow because that, because of that necessary exchange, you, you can't avoid it, you have the animal right in front of you, um, but I feel as though if I'm going to consume meat, I can't ignore that fact and I am going to consume meat. So, um, yeah, that was sort of the main emotions that I felt. And then, so, yeah, that was sort of the main emotions that I felt. And then, yeah, there was a carry out and I felt all sorts of other emotions on the way out, falling down wombat holes and sort of climbing up some pretty steep faces. That felt a lot longer on the way out than they did on the way in. But yeah, it's all part of it.

Dodge Keir:

How much of your courses and education do you think you remembered at the time when you were there cutting up?

Cass Fleming:

Some of it was. As I went, I remembered certain things. So in the courses that I had done, it was animals that had been shot a few days before, so they were cold and so I wasn't sure how it would feel with an animal that was warm. I was, yeah, that was one thing that I was like I don't know how I'm going to feel until I get there. But when I did it was fine. It didn't feel all that different. There was a lot less blood than I expected. Um, which was it just is what it was what it was. But that was interesting Some of it.

Cass Fleming:

I just had to kind of slow down and just think about what I was doing. Um, simple things like um, there were certain ligaments to cut through that it felt like bone and then I realised I had to actually press harder to make the cut and then it was like, okay, that's a learning experience of how much pressure that you need to use to achieve a particular part of the butchering. But it was fine. I got through it all and I think every time I and so I've done some other butchering in the course prior and then. So since that as well, I've done some like breaking down of legs and things at other opportunities, and every time you do it, I think you learn more and more and it becomes you'll become more efficient. I think that that that field butchering was probably the slowest that I'll probably ever do in my life because it was new and you were, yeah, learning as you're going.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, I think the lack of blood one is interesting. I hadn't considered that, but it's definitely not what you picture. Well, not what you see on movies or anything of if anyone's you's butchering things on Hollywood. There's always blood flying everywhere. But from a hunting point of view, essentially the animal generally has fully bled out internally, especially with a good heart or chest lung shot. That whole lung cavity just fills with blood. Obviously there's still some blood in the meat and in the veins. But you know, people picture. I'll give you an example A friend of mine. It was his first animal he'd shot and he shot it in the head, which is fine, it's a good shot. And then we went to take the back leg off straight away and he cut the femoral artery and it sprayed him because it was like we were like you know. You know, within 30 seconds we were on top of the animal and started cutting in less than a minute. So it, you know, that's what people picture.

Dodge Keir:

That's actually not realistic usually, and that was just because the heart was still pumping yeah, but generally yeah, where did you shoot? Just in the chest somewhere, you're happy with shot placement yeah, absolutely, like all through the shoulder. What calibre do you shoot?

Cass Fleming:

I have .308.

Dodge Keir:

And you're happy with that I love it.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, got a Sauer Classic 100 .308. I was convinced prior to buying this rifle that I was going to get a Tikka, a Camo Wrap Tikka .308. I don't know why that was just like oh, that seems like a good hunting gun. But know why that was just like oh, that that seems like a good hunting gun. Um, but then when I went into the gun store melbourne gun works they're excellent, very helpful um. So I went in there and held the teaker and it just felt empty. It was just like this hollow. And nothing against them. I'm sure they're fine as a gun, but for me it just didn't feel right. And then one of the guys in there suggested the sour and I was like, oh, I'll have a, have a look, why not? And as soon as I held it I was like yep, like this has a heart, this is my hunting rifle. I just knew and it was great and I've loved it ever since.

Dodge Keir:

The emptiness that you described. I know exactly what you felt and to me I mean, I own one, I'm not going to complain about it, but it feels like a beach cricket bat yes, yes, it feels, it feels hollow.

Cass Fleming:

I'm like, yeah, like I'm sure if I smashed on something, obviously it wouldn't, but like it feels, like it would just like ting, like it they're definitely stronger than you think, but they have that feeling yeah, and then that that comes into play when you're doing, you know, recoil and things on larger calibers.

Dodge Keir:

Yes, yeah extra weight exactly so.

Cass Fleming:

So you know, obviously it's a little bit more for the guns as I'm going around, but it's fine, I like it yeah.

Dodge Keir:

What did you do with the meat on that one? So you had someone with you or they turned up. Were they with you for the whole hunt?

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, they were with me for the whole hunt. Yeah, so they helped. I put the back straps in my backpack. We took one leg each, so that was actually very helpful to get the meat out. Yeah, took it up to the fire track and then walked back to my car from there, drove back down and picked it up and then drove back.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, imagine doing it all by yourself, like it would be multiple trips.

Cass Fleming:

Well, it would have been two trips. I mean, I could have probably done one leg Nah. Nah, that's a lot. I think it would have been two trips. Or it would have been like nah, it would have been two trips.

Dodge Keir:

I think it would have been two trips for me too. One of the new fellas in our local club here just shot a Samba the other week and that was I think someone was saying it's the second bullet he's fired out of that gun at an animal, yeah right. And both of them were at that Samba. Yeah, it's pretty crazy as his first animal, and then he had it on the ground and then he's like what do I do now?

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

You know he said that one of the boys has suggested I get him on to have the chat, so I don't want to tell his full story, but he said that all his research leading up to it was how to find animals. How to find, yes. Where do I look? What am I?

Cass Fleming:

looking for, and none of his research was what do I do after I shot one? Yeah, and obviously that's so important, right it's. You need the whole journey and you can. I mean, there's a lot you can learn in the classroom that you're still going to sort of revise once you're out in practice and you're going to forget things, and then each time you're going to learn new things or whatever. But you can't stop at the trigger pull. The end part of the process is very important too.

Dodge Keir:

That is, and Sambra, you know, is the biggest deer species we have in Australia. So to shoot one of those, as your first ones is, you know it's only downhill from there. If you shoot a fallow, you'll be throwing the whole thing on your backpack.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, oh easy.

Dodge Keir:

Have you got any trips coming up planned?

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, so next weekend I've got a trip with my ADA branch, so we'll head away up to the high country there and, yeah, hopefully a big success. But I actually. So it's not like I'm blasé and I'm like, oh, I don't care if I get a deer, it's just that that's not my only objective. I I just love being in the bush. It's time in the bush is never wasted and every time I'm out there I'll find something new, something interesting, I'll find a new plant species I've never seen, or just listen to the birds. I never come back feeling worse than what I went in. I just love being out there. So it's and you know, the camps are great as well just for camaraderie, networking, having some chats. I want to try and make bread. I've been getting into bread at the moment like in the oven, but I want to try and cook it on a campfire. So that's going to be one of my experiments. I'm going to make up a few batches of dough and, yeah, try and get some good bread.

Dodge Keir:

Are you? A sourdough person. Have you got a starter?

Cass Fleming:

It's not sourdough, no, it's just so. It's flour, yeast, salt and water. That's it. You don't have to knead it. It's so easy and it's so delicious.

Dodge Keir:

You can use, like if you picture the tin, that corn comes in, you know a larger, not a bit bigger than a beer can.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

And you take the lid off that and you actually cook it in that in the coals and you make little individual ones and then you pop them out and everyone's got like little. That sounds like a great idea. Little dinner rolls.

Cass Fleming:

Maybe I'll experiment with that too.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, you need lots of little cans.

Cass Fleming:

I'm going to be like a bread scientist and like making all different things. I think you just answered.

Dodge Keir:

I was going to ask you and I said this a few episodes ago. It's going to be my new question. I ask everyone and I've failed to do that because I've forgotten on a few but what do you consider a successful hunt?

Cass Fleming:

Yeah. So a successful hunt it would be that I either come home with an empty casing or empty hands. So I don't want to take a shot that's not successful. I'm happy to come out with no deer. That's no worries, and just not in any conflict of how I've behaved, how I've conducted myself while I'm away. So you know, just making sure I know why I'm there, what I'm doing, and stay in alignment with that. If I see deer, great. If I shoot a deer, great. If I see no deer, great. Those sorts of things don't indicate success for me. So long as I've done it all legally and ethically, that's fine by me. That's a good answer. I like that.

Dodge Keir:

I'm not at the I don't know, it's partly because the hunting part is business as well, but it's. You know, we get paid on success, and success is harvesting animals from a guiding point of view.

Cass Fleming:

Yes.

Dodge Keir:

Education hunt's very different, but I like what you said earlier and Chris, he brought it up when I had the podcast with him about different styles of guided hunts and you know some. You may just pay to go and shoot something and you know there's some places that offer that and then there's others that do the educational side of things and I think it's very important and interesting that people make it clear from a client point of view as to what you expect yes.

Dodge Keir:

Because, as a guide, our job is to find an animal and then get you to harvest it.

Cass Fleming:

Yes.

Dodge Keir:

But if you're looking to get more out of it and we don't know that it's very hard to deliver that it's such a good point, and so I'm only sharing my perspective of what I want and what's important to me.

Cass Fleming:

I don't think there's anything wrong with any of the styles of guiding, any styles of hunting, like if you want to use rifles or bows, or if you want a trophy hunt, or if you want to harvest meat, or if you I mean, I do think that if you trophy hunt, you should also harvest meat. But there's there's so many ways that you can go about hunting and so many motivations you can have for it. I don't, I think you know, despite the fact that things are, I'm finding things quite positive, and that seems to be a changing light there. I think that there is enough criticism from the outside in. I don't think we need to be fighting amongst ourselves about different styles of hunting or what's right or wrong or otherwise. I think you know, so long as what you're doing is ethical and legal, fill your boots, I don't.

Cass Fleming:

I don't have anything to say about anyone else's choices, but for me the hunt itself is really important. So and same with you know, if you're spotlighting on private land because you want to harvest meat for your freezer, cool, that's great. I wouldn't find a sense of satisfaction in that because for me part of it is the patience that comes with the stock, with the whole process of it. That is something that I care about and that I want to get out of it. But you know, everyone has their own motivations and that's cool. Like that's actually really interesting.

Dodge Keir:

Beth, right at the start you said your background was long range precision rifle sort of things. Yeah, I did that for about. I'm sorry.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, rifle sort of things. Yeah, I did that for about. I'm sorry.

Dodge Keir:

Yeah, no, you go, I'm sorry.

Cass Fleming:

I was going to say, yeah, I did that for probably about a year before I decided to get into hunting.

Dodge Keir:

There's an interesting part of the community that frowns upon long-range hunting.

Cass Fleming:

Yes, yeah.

Dodge Keir:

And whether you've come across it or not, what are your thoughts on that and how? Like you said that you'd be happy to take something up to, you know 300 metres or so, but you know guys shooting 700, 800 metres. And then the general consensus is oh, that's not hunting, because the animal had no idea you were there. And my rebuttal to that, before you get to answer, is the ideal archery hunt is getting to sub 30 without the animal knowing you're there.

Dodge Keir:

Yes so you know, is it the same but at a different skill set. The skill set's in the shooting, less so in the stalking.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, I really. So it still just comes back to me if it's legal and if it's ethical. If you're not proficient enough to take a shot over that distance, then no, I don't think that's great because it's fundamentally not ethical. But if you can do it and if that's the way that you enjoy to shoot, and if you, by stalking up on an animal, spook it and then it ends up not being as proficient, then maybe that's not as good. I don't think it's inherently wrong to do long-range hunting. So long as you know what you do Like, so long as you're good enough to do it, go for it.

Dodge Keir:

I think their issue is the word you know, calling and hunting, as opposed to long-range shooting at a live target.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, yeah, righto, I don't know, it's not something. I guess I've thought about a lot. It's not something I want to do either. So you know, I don't have probably a strong opinion on it. But I don't know there's, there's people doing all sorts of you know weird and wonderful things that are not not representing the hunting industry. Well, the hunting community, I don't think the long-range hunting is.

Dodge Keir:

It's one of them.

Cass Fleming:

I don't think that's one of them.

Dodge Keir:

On that topic. There's some comments that came about from your article, where it was on the Landline specific page, when they shared that they were going to have it as the TV episode and you know a lady commented about why do we need to kill animals in this day and age, or something was along those lines.

Dodge Keir:

And the comments from hunters inverted commas, one particularly, you know I think his word was eftard, you know called her whatever and just blasted her for not understanding what we do and why we do what we do. And I commented and just said like I think that's a terrible answer. Also, hers might be from our point of view, but I think his answer was worse.

Cass Fleming:

Oh yep.

Dodge Keir:

I're navigating negative comments and my comment back was oh, he said that she would believe whatever she reads. I said okay, well, give her something to read yeah give her some facts and figures yeah you know it. That's, that's my way of dealing with those sorts of comments. It's just okay. I can understand why you might think that we waste the meat. However, x, y, z, here's a picture of my cool room and my kids enjoying some sausages we made.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, absolutely.

Cass Fleming:

That's the thing, though, like I think sometimes people do get very defensive and the way that they respond does more damage than good, and I feel no need to try and convince anyone of anything. Absolutely happy to share perspectives, and if someone is curious and willing to consider another point of view, then excellent. Some people aren't, and that's okay too. I'd rather spend my energy interacting with the people that want to discuss and consider what hunting is all about, but, yeah, I don't think we're going to, you know, help our cause by criticising other people or getting butt hurt because someone doesn't like what we do.

Dodge Keir:

I think some of my best conversations over the years have been with people like that lady. I'm not going to say that she's one of them, but you know, when you get to really sit down and understand why they think what they think. Something happened in the past or something, or it's quite often a misconception. Oh, we thought that hunters do this.

Cass Fleming:

Yes, absolutely.

Dodge Keir:

Let's say that some of them might, but that's not the norm yes, it's not what we try to achieve and, yeah, you know, for these reasons so, and I think we need to then be able to sit there and listen to their side, though, too, and that that's what gets forgotten.

Cass Fleming:

We all want to tell them why we're right, but let's have a listen to why they think we're wrong absolutely, and it's so interesting the more you talk to anyone, the more you say that there's just this interesting fact about every single person on the planet, but also the reason why they believe what they believe is a collection of their own experiences through life. And when you can have that conversation about how they arrived at a particular thought, then there's sometimes an opportunity to add a different perspective that they can take on board. But without knowing how they got there, you've got no potential insights to be able to relate to their experience. So you know, you're just making all these assumptions and we don't like assumptions being made about us, so you know let's not do it to anyone else yeah?

Dodge Keir:

It goes both ways, I think. The whole industry. We're so used to being victimised not victimised, demonised, I suppose and made out to be the baddies. A lot of guys go around with their hackles up all the time.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah.

Dodge Keir:

And it's hard to remove that and yeah. I think, finding out where the comment's coming from on the other side is the key. Yes, absolutely, and using their own language.

Cass Fleming:

Yep, yeah for sure.

Dodge Keir:

Well, thanks for coming on tonight, cass, I appreciate it.

Cass Fleming:

Thanks for having me, josh, learning a bit about you.

Dodge Keir:

No, thanks for coming, we've spoken a fair bit in the past, but it's nice to have these longer chats and see what you're thinking and what? You're feeling. One of my favorite topics hunting, hunting, yeah, likewise, it takes up about 92% of my brain capacity how good. So it's an interesting pastime and I love meeting new people and listening about their experiences. So thanks for sharing yours. I look forward to catching up in the future in the hills somewhere.

Cass Fleming:

Yeah, likewise.

Dodge Keir:

Until next time, we'll talk to you soon.

Cass Fleming:

See you then. Bye, until next time. We'll talk to you soon. See you then.