Parenting Neurodivergent Kids: Transitions, Discipline, and Connection w/ Polina Shkadron (Pt2) (Ep. 18)

Nobody ever said that being a parent is easy, especially the parent of a neurodivergent child… These children have challenges with emotional regulation, executive function skills, sensory processing, communication, social interactions, impulse control, and balance and coordination to name a few. 

This is a lot to contend with as a little one and as the parent of the little one because these make managing every day routines, interactions, and achieving milestones and other accomplishments more challenging. 

Parenting in general and parenting a neurodivergent child specially, take a lot of love and dedication to doing right for the specific child. 

In today’s episode I’m excited to share the remainder of the conversation with Polina Shkadron, a Play Therapist, about parenting neurodivergent children. In today’s part we cover how using specific language gets better outcomes with your child, how to set good boundaries without overusing the “no”, what to do with attention seeking behavior, how to coparent, and how to smoothly do transitions… It’s packed with information on how to succeed at your parenting and create a harmonious and joyful home.   

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🌟ABOUT OUR GUEST: 

Polina Shkadron is a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist, family communication and feeding expert specializing in families living with Autism, ADHD, language and literacy difficulties. She earned her Master of Arts degree in Speech-Language Pathology from CUNY Queens College where she has held the position of Adjunct Lecturer for 7 years. She also has a Master of Science degree in Nutrition Education from American University. Polina helps parents of neurodivergent kids to "Raise Differently" and let go of the shame and deficit-focus that often comes with traditional parenting, and some therapeutic models. You can find her at PlayToLearnConsulting.com.

Gift from Polina:

E-Book - 7 Reasons you & your neurodivergent kids experience anxiety & overwhelm

Find her also here: 

LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram 

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🌟MORE ON THIS EPISODE:

Watch the YouTube Video! 

More about the podcast on our Podcast Page

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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.

Chapters

• 5:39 The Importance Of Words and Language In Parenting
• 7:52 What Happens To Children When We Overuse The Word “No”
• 16:15 How To Address And Minimize Attention Seeking Behavior
• 19:18 The Secret To Successful Coparenting
• 26:53 Managing Transitions With Ease

Transcript

Emma Viglucci: 0:07

Hello lovelies, welcome to another episode, and today we're doing part two of this parenting little mini series that we're doing with Polina. We did part one two weeks ago and we covered parenting a neurodivergent child from a lot of different angles. So we covered what happens when the child is tantruming or having a meltdown or a hard time, how to parent around difficult moments like that. What does it mean when the child is acting out it's really a dysregulation and how that dysregulate the parent and then, as a result, the moment is really difficult to manage and we don't show up our best to our child to help them regulate. And come back to the moment, and we cover that so nicely so that you could see the impact that that has on the child and on us. When we're in those moments with them when our tactics are just not working and they just keep melting down or they're just not responsive, or they seem responsive but they're actually not right. So that happens as well, and so we did such a beautiful job showing how those things come up and what the experience looks like for the child, and so that gives us an idea on how to show up differently so we get better results. So those moments are not as challenging, and so we help the child actually develop and mature and get their needs met and do all the good things.

Emma Viglucci: 1:42

Like I mentioned at the end of the last episode, I love this conversation with Polina because, as we're talking about parenting, I hear what parenting is doing to the kid. When the parenting is not even good enough. That's how the wounds get created and the messaging happens and the programming happens and the conditioning happens right, and then that's what we deal in therapy when we're grownups and that's what we deal in a couple's work. And so if you bring that to your listening, so not only will this help you with parenting your child differently, how to raise them differently, so that you have easier moments and easier experience and do a much better job parenting your child without extra work, right, so you really have your own back here, but then also it'll help you take care of yourself differently, because you'll see things that you might have gotten growing up that maybe didn't serve you. That's contributing to how you are as a parent and as a partner and as a person, right, and so maybe what to do with that for yourself? You had to bring that into conversations with your partner, even about your couple. So this is such a rich conversation.

Emma Viglucci: 2:51

There's so much yumminess in here that could be used in so many different ways, so hopefully you could listen to it from that place. And if you're not interested in all of the more grown up and couple stuff, that's fine. If you're just totally solely interested in the parenting piece, by all means, just focus on that. That was me geeking out on this, because I was just listening to this from like all different angles and I was like really like woo, I enjoyed it so much. But if you're only listening so that you can parent your child better, by all means, there's plenty here for that.

Emma Viglucci: 3:18

And in today's episode we cover how to co-parent because, as usual, when things go south in the home and you know the parents are both trying to take care of the moment and just things don't work well and why and how to do that differently and better and just different impacts of the parenting style on the child and how to do that differently so you get better results and better outcomes and smoother parenting and routines and just life. One of the things that we touched on, too, was doing transitions. I know that transitions get people, even if the child is not neurodivergent, it still gets people and it gets grownups right. So that concept is just really fabulous and so rich that could be used in all different scenarios. Okay, my loves.

Emma Viglucci: 4:01

So hopefully you enjoyed this episode as well. It's packed with good stuff, and just have fun with it. Listen with as many ears as you can, and if it's just the one and it's the parenting one, that's fabulous just as it is and that's it. So for the introduction for Polina, you could go back to last episode. I read her whole bio and it will be included in the description box and in the show notes as well, just in case you want to refer to. If you didn't listen to the last episode and you just want to know who she is and what's going on, you can refer to the show notes for that. And if you haven't listened to the last episode, please go back. It's fabulous, all right. So that's it. Stay tuned. You're in for a treat.

Polina Shkadron: 4:52

It's also about you know again, like the parental relationship, and I've had also parents ask me, like let's say that we have two households, like how do we, is that going to play a role? And I go, well, it's so great that you're both here. Like, yes, there are two different households. I'm glad that you're both here and that you're both like tuned in. You're still different people. You're still going to parent differently.

Polina Shkadron: 5:22

There are some of those nuances in the language that you mentioned that I said you want to see progress, right, you want to figure out. How do we measure that? How do we measure that therapy is effective? Because I've also heard it and seen it Others saying, like therapy is not effective for ADHD kids, right, like they just, it's just like parent management behavior training and figure out the other pieces. Like they, it's just like parent management behavior training and figure out the other pieces. Like they shouldn't be in therapy. And I'm looking at it from the perspective of, well, what does that mean that? First of all, what kind of therapy? Like, how much do you? What's the knowledge base that you have in terms of play? So, just out of curiosity, where you know, we talked about this so often and there's a, the nuance that you mentioned. It's the language piece, right? So this is the.

Polina Shkadron: 6:15

My background is as a language expert, because I've studied words. And you know, when you mentioned in my bio about, like being an adjunct, I've taught psycholinguistics. That's like it's a psychology of language, it's like how words are put together and it's so. So it's very intricate and that's the reason that you know, a parent could say, well, I tell them the same thing, right, like they don't listen to me, how come they listen to you? And I go are we really telling them the same thing? Is it really the same?

Polina Shkadron: 6:53

And then it becomes with you know, when you talked about the co-parenting piece like, well, how come they listen to mom or dad or, but like not to me? And I go, we're telling them the same thing. And I go, we're telling them the same thing. And I go well, what is that same thing? Like, just let me know what it is that you're saying, because you're expecting a certain outcome. Based on that and that's true for all people, based on the words we give, we're expecting a certain outcome. So when we're expecting a certain outcome and we don't get that outcome, we tend to blame the outcome versus like. It must have been something in the words that I've chosen and how I said them to get that reaction. That's right. So to change the reaction, you change the words.

Emma Viglucci: 7:41

What we have to be accountable for our own side of a relationship. That's crazy talk.

Polina Shkadron: 7:46

Kalina A little bit oh my goodness.

Emma Viglucci: 7:52

So tell us a little bit about using the word no as a parenting tactic, and how kids are able to take that in or not take it in, and the impact that it has on them.

Polina Shkadron: 8:00

So I tell parents also that, like, reserve the no for danger, right, like you want. What do you want that no to do? You want them to stop in their tracks to reserve it for when they they are in danger, when there's a car coming right or when they're really close to a hot stove. That's your no. Okay, it's supposed to jolt them and go oh, my gosh, what's happening? Okay, reserve the no for danger, everything else.

Polina Shkadron: 8:28

99% of the time you could turn that no into a yes and still keep the boundary. It doesn't mean that you're permissive. It doesn't mean that, like, kids should just hear no, they should just, they're told no and they should figure it out, okay, well, eventually they'll build up like an understanding of okay, this is kind of what my role is, what I'm supposed to be doing, so to speak. So the no, when kids are constantly hit with a no, they get stuck and then the no turns into that rigidity and then parents come in like, well, they're not flexible. And my response is well, what do you mean by flexible and where's the flexibility in you? Thank you. And it happens in schools too, where it's like they should just and I go okay, so you're expecting the child to be flexible and just go with the flow.

Polina Shkadron: 9:25

Meanwhile, the routine is rigid, excellent. That doesn't coincide so with the no. It comes in. Let's say like a child. They're in the store, right, and it's like, well, I want that toy, and the first response is usually no, you're not getting it. Versus you're right, that is a cool toy. Today we're here for something else. It's still a no without a no, can I?

Emma Viglucci: 9:53

tell you what I used to do with my daughter.

Emma Viglucci: 9:55

With that I used to go shopping for her friend's birthday parties, right? So she was like small, between three and like five, six. So you have all the birthday parties of all of the kids, right? And so it's like, okay, so every week or so we're at the toy store grabbing toys for all the kids. That's like just like, that's like a joke for kids, you know. So we would go in the store and she would be like okay, I want this and I want that, and you know all these different things.

Emma Viglucci: 10:25

So what I used to say was like, okay, let's, let's hang on to them, all the things that you like, just put them in the carriage and then at the end we could decide if we're gonna buy any. So just the fact that she was able to hold them and just for that period of the moment that we were shopping, that was good enough Most of the time. I mean, sometimes they're buying a little something, but she wanted all of these things, right? How come I'm buying for all the people and not for me? And just teaching, you're supposed to use them like that now, like she could hold things and then she could make a choice, and even for shopping for herself. You know, like all the things, if one of the things okay, let's hold on to them. And now she's 21 and we go to the bookstore and she a box, I can just hang it on to them and I could choose at the end. I'm just hanging on to them.

Polina Shkadron: 11:05

I'm just going to hold them in my Amazon cart.

Emma Viglucci: 11:07

I'm going to think about it.

Polina Shkadron: 11:14

I'm going to really figure out. Do I need all of these items that I'm hanging on to in my Amazon cart? I'm just going to hold on to it just for a little bit to in my Amazon cart, Like I'm just going to hold on to it just for a little bit.

Emma Viglucci: 11:26

That's so funny. Yes, it works at all the ages. That's so good, perfect.

Polina Shkadron: 11:30

So I interrupted you were you saying something, something else. Right, so, with the, with the no, and it goes with into so many other areas. Right, where it's like, if you're talking about kids who are older and they're going like I want a phone because everybody else has one, right, where, like, or I want to play this video game and my friends are playing this video game, and then my parents are telling me that I can't play this video game and I'm going. Well, where is so? Now, this is, you know, a little bit older, so the language changes a little bit, and yet the message remains the same. And what I'm asking is where do you think dad's no is coming from? Like, what's that frame of thought? So now we're going to higher levels of thinking where, like, yeah, there are. It sounds like a rule for home. Okay, it sounds like your friends have different rules in their house.

Polina Shkadron: 12:29

I'm hearing from you that there's a lot of unfairness. Okay, I get it. Big, big concept. It's not fair, you're not fair, nothing is fair. Right, okay, they go. Yeah, you're right, it isn't Okay. So where's that no coming from for dad? Where's that no coming from, like, for mom?

Polina Shkadron: 12:52

And so when parents talk about, like, how come that whole respect piece is what you're asking them at an age that's too young, is that you're asking them to think like you, versus first thinking like your five-year-old or six-year-old, or even like thinking like your, you know, 10, 11, 12-year-old, like get into their mindset to go what is it doing? What is this doing for them? Like, what is this really doing for them? And it's interesting because I had a conversation I'm seeing, like a soon to be 12be, 12, 13 year old and he goes, you know, sometimes I just kick my younger brother out of out of nowhere and like dad keeps asking me why I'm doing it now, in terms of language, why is very blaming yes, right, why'd you do that? Versus how did that work for you? You're inviting curiosity. So he tell me all the things you and he goes I need you to fix it. Like just tell me what to do. And I go well, here's I'm going to ask you a question in return, like when you decide to kick your brother, where does that come from? Because in my mind I I was like I know the answer it's boredom. And I was like where does that come from? And then it's also what does that do for you? Like, what does that do for you?

Polina Shkadron: 14:14

He responds I go, oh, and then you know what that does to your brain. It goes cool, now, like we got a back and forth, now like there's a dopamine spike right Now, like now we're in it. And I go okay, well, it sounds to me like when you're feeling bored and you're not sure what to do, you're looking for other things to do. And I go for knowing you, I said I also know that you really enjoy looking at a book. And he goes oh, okay, I guess I could just grab a book, and then he was.

Polina Shkadron: 14:50

Then he goes well, what about when we're out? Like when we're outside and you know, like we've taken, you know, a family trip for the day, when we're out, kind of, he's going like what do you got for me? Like, how about that? Right Like now, what? Like we're sitting and we're waiting for I don't know, like there's a wait and there's a lull and like the boredom creeps up. And then I said to him and go, I'm wondering, like always, like there's a wonder of curiosity, and I go. And then he goes oh, my god, do you think I could put a book in my backpack? And I said wow, that's, that's so great, you figured it out, like amazing, like we think that it's right, like for us it's, it's so small and we're thinking, I mean, that's where I was headed for him it was so big because he was like oh, I solved it, I could bring a book with me and put it in my backpack and that way, like I know even the fact that knowing that it's there can already be helpful when it's like this is what I need in order to avoid just like kicking my brother to incite him into something with me.

Polina Shkadron: 16:13

And then there comes those parents Well, it's attention seeking, avoid, just like kicking my brother to incite him into something with me, right. And then there comes those parents Well, it's attention seeking, right. Like what is going on with all these like negative attention seeking behaviors? And I go oh, I think it's connection. So, versus it being like attention seeking sounds so negative. It's they're looking for something, they're looking for connection, okay. And that something's going on, that you know the connection is disrupted or the nervous system hasn't gotten enough connection throughout the day and your child doesn't have again like enough knowledge or self-awareness or words or language to tell you like hey, mom, dad, I'm really feeling disconnected from you right now. Do you mind like reconnecting with me so I'm good for the next? You know, like half of the day and I'm sure, like with working with adults, how often do adults go, you know, like I'm being nasty because I'm feeling like there's a disconnect happening. Because I'm feeling like there's a disconnect happening, that's so good and it's something that we've got to model too.

Emma Viglucci: 17:18

Totally so. This is. I actually teach couples this for themselves, right. So whenever they're like something that normally wouldn't bother you so much or that's annoying but you're okay, but then when it really puts you over the top, it's not about the thing, it's like you're not feeling connected, so that bandwidth is lower, right. So same concept, and I usually teach parents also how about some special mommy-daughter time, some special daddy-daughter, son, mommy, daddy, whatever the combinations, right? So special attention and how you build that into the routines and so totally connections. It's so interesting, like it's almost like the magic pill, like it pretty much solves all of the problems. Of course there's other things that we need to do, right, but like that's really a lot of the times just boils down to like when you're connected to yourself, your partner, your kid, things are easier, right, interesting.

Polina Shkadron: 18:07

And this also. It is and it also comes from I'm going to butcher the quotes, I'm not going to say it it comes from the work of Stuart Shanker, which he his work is all on self-reg and self-regulation, and he talks about energy and it's like we are designed as people to like give energy and to receive energy from each other. Right, and this is not like something like woo, woo, right, where it's like oh, energy, well, it's connection and that boils down to regulation. Like we are designed to be able to stay regulated, stay connected and when somebody is dysregulated, know that we could stay planted and then take that on right, like, take the storm that's coming and not meet it with another storm, meet it with that sense of calm, and then that sense of calm it's going to catch on, it's infectious, just like this regulation is, so is a state of calm.

Emma Viglucci: 19:09

It will catch on yes, so good, so good. My goodness, that's like so many different implications for this all over the place. I love it so good. So last thoughts on when the parent is dysregulated and they're trying to regulate the child and potentially the partner comes in and now they are getting triggered and they're getting dysregulated too and kaboom Right. So any thoughts about how to manage that?

Polina Shkadron: 19:36

So let's say it's just one parent like managing, instead of giving the child a time out, like take a break for you Not to say that also, this is like really important. You're not like disconnecting, like you have to make sure that your child knows that. Like you're not leaving to leave them to deal with their own stuff. It's more like you know like hey, I'm gonna go to the kitchen and get a drink of water. I'm going to be right back and we're going to continue figuring this out Like give yourself a second, it's not about you. Know, you're going to stay in your room, I've had enough of you and I'm leaving you for an hour. It's the same thing. Like you deal with your thing, I'm going to deal with my thing, that's my boundary. It's more like I'm going to deal with my thing, that's my boundary. It's more like I'm going to just take a step back, physical step back. I'm letting you know that I'm not leaving you to handle like what. I know that you can't Right, and it's more like let me, let me get that drink of water. I'll be, I'll be right back. And when you are coming in right back, right Like if there's a door that's like slammed in your face or behind you, right, like now, there's also that boundary where you knock on the door. You go hey, just as a reminder, I'm still here, right, I'm still here, I'm just letting you know I can come in. You, let me know, I can also sit right outside the door, right, so, like you're still connected and you're still like that, the idea is I'm still here, like you just kicked me out. And then the initial thought is, well, that's rude, like how could they do that? That's's true that, just, we don't slam doors in this house, right, well, it's like it was, it was an action, it happened like, let it go, let it go. This, that's not what the moment is about. And then when you mentioned, like, when it's two parents at the same time, now it's already too many adults, now two in my door. So what I tell parents is figure out who has the most capacity, who has the most capacity to stay regulated. And then you guys do a switcheroo where it's not like mom, you know, mom's leaving you because, like, you're so terrible that she can't handle you. It's more well, right now I'm here. Whether it's dad, where, it's where, whether it's like you know, a family with you know two moms, two dads, right, like I'm here for you, so-and-so is going to like I don't know, they need to use the bathroom or something where it's like they're going to, or or it's like they're going to they're going to take a walk. Um, I'm right here.

Polina Shkadron: 22:34

And sometimes, very interestingly, the kid will say I don't want you Right, like what happens? I don't want you, I want like, I want them, I don't want you Right. And the response is you know, I hear you right now. Um, I'm going to stay here with you, I'll stay here with you, you don't have to like, you don't have to talk, like there's no.

Polina Shkadron: 22:55

And I've had kids tell me stop. Yes, I've had kids say like stop talking, yeah, stop talking. And you go okay, can't take it in, I'm just letting you know, can't take it in. And then now the words become triggering, regardless of what those words are cannot, cannot take it in. So there is, it's the capacity piece and it's something that happens. It would be a conversation that parents would have like preemptively where is this? Could happen, like something's brewing, you know how? And it's a check in where do you have enough capacity today, do I? And then like what's the signal that we can give to each other to go on taking I. And then like what's the signal that we can give to each other to go?

Emma Viglucci: 23:34

I'm taking over Like let me handle this Well. I need you to take over.

Polina Shkadron: 23:40

Yes, I need you to take over. And what you're showing to the child is the things that adults don't know how to handle, and that's where adults reach out to other adults to go. I don't know if I can handle this right now, like, can you take over part of the piece? And it's something that I model for kids also. Where I go right now, this looks like a lot, right, like whatever that a lot means. It looks like a lot you know what, and I put it on myself. I go, I'm going to take care of the big pieces, I'm going to take care of it. Sometimes it's with transitions, with cleanup, right, like anything that seems like I'm looking in front of me and they're the mess and my brain's going. I have no idea where to start. So I start, I go, I'm going to handle and I will take care of it. Today looks like a lot. I've got it when it's like here's this one little piece and I go how about your job is going to be to, I don't know, find the cover for this bid. I'll take care of the rest. I got it today.

Polina Shkadron: 24:51

So it's not that you're letting them get away with something, it's more that now there's an advocacy piece, because then you want them to grow up to be well-functioning adults who, let's say, like, go into the workforce. And what if? Like, their boss is giving them 20 deadlines? So, instead of having a tantrum in front of your boss, you go. You know, I understand that these deadlines are important. I'm letting you know that I'm at capacity. Like, what a different, such a different conversation. And it doesn't. It's a skill that doesn't just happen Like this is where this is where play comes in. This is where we build. We build everything from the like, from the ground up, for all of the. It's an executive function skill to go.

Polina Shkadron: 25:42

I've, I've had enough. I'm not sure if I can handle this much. You know, only handle this much. Yeah, like, this social situation even has become too overwhelming for me. Like I know my own capacity. Like what do I do so that I let other people know that I think I'm good? Like I'm, I'm done for the day, which also comes in right. Like for teens, where it's like peer pressure, right, social influence. Like how do we let them know that they have agency and they could also let others know I'm not a fan of this right now. Like I know what works for me and this situation, this situation doesn't work for me, so I'm going to remove, like I'm going to go Right.

Emma Viglucci: 26:29

Yeah, so we could set boundaries in terms of our capacity was okay with us or not, regardless of the age, right? So as we get older, I love that example for teenagers and as adults within the workforce. Like that's too many projects, you know, capacity for this many, what do we do with the other? How do we manage that? And with partners, am I capacity with the kids? Am I capacity with the workload? I'm incapacitated with the workload. I'm incapacitated with whatever. How do we have each other's back? Yes, so good. So last question, and I thank you so much. I mean, this is going very long, but this is so juicy I can't let you go, so, but thank you. So last question managing transitions. And yeah, just kind of like you know how do we deal with either the regulation piece or just setting up a proper transition and just piggybacking on some of the things that we're saying.

Polina Shkadron: 27:20

Yeah. So transitions are a change, right, are really really tough because you have to, in your mind, know that an idea is stopping and also know that it's not going to disappear. And it's the toughest piece for, uh, you know like I specialize with autism and ADHD and I see this like so frequently and it's a it's a working memory challenge where it's like if I don't finish this it's going to disappear, like it will not be here when I get back and somebody is asking me to put my shoes on and I'm working on, like my Lego set or, and then parents are like well, but we have to go, we got to go. So I would say talk about what's happening in the now first, where it's like this looks really important to you, right's. Like this looks really important to you, right? Like finishing it also looks really important to you, right? Like what would happen? I always pause this, but what would happen?

Polina Shkadron: 28:21

Let's say we don't get to finish and so many kids have said it won't be. Like I can't handle that. Like what do you? It's going to, it's going to go away. Like I can't handle that. Like what do you? It's going to, it's going to go away.

Polina Shkadron: 28:34

So this is where you take over the cognitive load and you go. You know what. I'm going to hold on to that idea for you. I'm going to hold on to it, like I'm going to hold on to it. Either you know, you show them, like I'll write it down, or I'm going to hold on to it. And the more that they trust you, the more they know that you are going to hold on to it. I'm going to hold on to it. We're going to, like, bookmark it, whether literally or figuratively. Bookmark it. Okay, and we will get back to it. I'm letting you know that, like, right now it's pickup and we've got to get your shoes Right. So, like really figuring out, and transitions are also about letting go. Right, it's a concept of and it's a much bigger concept, right, like, what is it like to let go? To let go and know that you're are going to be okay on the other side, without telling the kid you'll be fine, right, because right now they're not fine right.

Emma Viglucci: 29:36

So telling them you'll be fine, let's go right, you'll be fine.

Polina Shkadron: 29:39

It's, it's very dismissive. It's like when you tell the same thing to an adult and then an adult is coming to you with, like their worries and concerns and you're going, you'll'll be fine, just let it go. And you're like, let it go. Like what do you mean? Let it go? I brought it to you, I brought all my like what do you? Why are you telling me to let it go? So it's the same thing for that type of transition and like, as soon as you bring like a different language in and just knowledge of what does it really take to pause or to stop an idea? To have letting go is also to have closure with it and then be able to move on to something different. And sometimes it's it's it's really tough, like I've had, you know, kids want where, um, I don't know. Like we were coloring something, one of the girls I see, and she wanted to take, I think, like the whole book home and it was really hard for her to let it go. And it was hard to let it go also because the day that she's had before she got to me I, like all the other, it wasn't just an all of a sudden Right. So I gave, I had to go right into another session and I gave dad a script and I was like this is what you're going to tell her, and what you're going to tell her is I know you need to finish. The pictures are going to stay safe at Polina's. This is where they live, this is where they'll be like over, like you know you're on repeat, I get it, I know you need it. They're safe here constantly. So then, what happened was and that, like you know, maybe it took half an hour, right, when she came back and this is this was like a such a tough transition. When she came back the next, the next time, the first thing I said was I'm thinking of the pictures that we were working on when you were here. I'm just showing you that, like, here they are, they're safe.

Polina Shkadron: 31:40

And then, in that same day, right, like I wanted to also figure out, like, how do you connect successes? Right, and this is the other piece where, how do you figure that therapy is effective or ineffective? And I'm telling you that it's effective because when I told her that we're going to leave this unfinished and part of this idea we're going to let it go for today, and she said I know it's going to be safe here, nice. Like that's how you know that therapy is effective. And like it's it's working because there's a there's a self-awareness that's being built.

Polina Shkadron: 32:23

And we are like kids are living and you know I work with neurodivergent kids Like it's moment to moment. They themselves have not connected those moments and when they are successful, nobody tells them where that success comes from. It's usually like oh, good job, you got it. Meaning versus right, versus like, oh, you know, you just figured something out that was like really, really tough, and I remember there was another time. So now you're like you're digging into the past of when you figured out a problem just like this, and now you've figured both problems out. So now there's like that strength-based approach that's coming in and we're capitalizing on successes. And who doesn't want to feel successful?

Emma Viglucci: 33:15

right, terrific. So so good, you know. And something that I want to spotlight um, you use the word ideas, right, nice things. Parents might have a hard time with that in terms of people who are not used to this work, right? So an idea just a quick translation is the activity, the play moment, the event, wherever you are. So this idea, you're using the word idea for the moment, and so, yeah, this idea has come into conclusion. So how do we help them? Do the closure? Leave it. I hold the space for you for that, like some kind of wrapping it up, as opposed to rushing you have five minutes, five minutes, what does that mean?

Polina Shkadron: 33:51

yes, we're living in five minutes that means nothing.

Polina Shkadron: 33:54

That means nothing to me as an adult exactly, and I also and the wrap-up I also use that term I go we're going to start to wrap up, right, like this idea is closing. It means like we've got to go, and I know that sometimes it'll take five minutes and sometimes it'll take 10 minutes. And then it's like, well, we're going to take them for a final ride. And final doesn't mean that it's like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to do this again. It's more. And the feedback I get is oh my gosh, we have to clean up.

Polina Shkadron: 34:29

I go, first of all, I didn't use those words, I didn't say, like, right away, clean up. And I said well, what I'm thinking is like we're going to start to wrap up this idea. So I'm letting you know let's take them for a ride. Or you know, like, let's, if it's, if it's somebody older and we're, I don't know like playing battleship and we don't get to finish battleship Right, sometimes we don't. And I go, you know, like, like we're going back and forth in the battleship. Um, like let's figure out like when, when this is going to wrap up and, yes, it is going to be unfinished Like I'm just letting you know that it'll be, it'll be unfinished.

Polina Shkadron: 35:10

So let's wrap up this idea and you're absolutely right. The term idea is whatever the activity is, then it connects it to whatever the thought I have about the activity, like how can I let it go? And it gives kids time to process the closure and the letting go and the fact that, like, they'll be able to come back to it without you telling them all right time's up. I already told you 10 minutes. 10 minutes is up. Like, what are you still doing playing?

Emma Viglucci: 35:41

Right, they didn't know how to use those 10 minutes. So I like that last piece that you added, that that built-in time helps them process, that we're wrapping up, that we're letting up, that we're letting go, that we're finishing, that we have to go Right. So good, beautiful. Oh my gosh, Polina, you are amazing. I want to live in your brain.

Polina Shkadron: 36:00

Good stuff.

Emma Viglucci: 36:01

Thank you so much so any last minute closing thoughts that you want to offer the audience.

Polina Shkadron: 36:06

I think it's more about like that idea of you know, like needing that closure and needing the space, and the fact that our like there's a reason that, you know, I specialize in words and language because they have like such a huge effect on how people perceive us and how they take information in, on how people perceive us and how they take information in, so, like really figure out what is it that you're saying and what is it that you're really saying, and it's the same thing for a child, like these are the words that they're using, but what's actually going on for them, like they could be saying it. What are they really telling you, though? Like there's a, there's a need underneath it all that's being unmet, and you know, the final nugget is like when you meet the need right, if we're going, we're working from foundation and ground up. When you meet the need, the behaviors disappear. Because the need is met, hello.

Polina Shkadron: 37:07

Same for couples. Because the need is met, hello. Same for couples. When the need is met, when the need is met right, and it's like it's magical hierarchy, like when that basic need is met, and one of them is that social emotional regulation. Like when that need is met, it's smooth sailing, yep amazing.

Emma Viglucci: 37:31

Thank you so very much for your wisdom, for your expertise, for your wide knowledge base and for sharing time with me. I really appreciate you.

Polina Shkadron: 37:41

You're welcome.

Emma Viglucci: 37:43

And for the audience. I will see you at the next one. Bye.