Have you ever stopped to question why you are the way you are? Why certain behaviors or patterns seem to echo in your family? Prepare to decode these mysteries with Dr. Leslie Bartley, a psychology professor who specializes in marriage and family therapy. We shed light on the ever-present impacts of generational trauma on various ethnic and minority groups, unraveling complex issues such as alcoholism and abuse.
Have you been in a relationship where you feel constantly drained? We've been there too. Sharing our personal stories, we delve into the murky world of narcissism and how it shapes relationships and family dynamics. We discuss the rampant phenomenon of people pleasing in these relationships, emphasizing the need to recognize and disrupt this pattern, no matter how difficult the resulting conversations with family members may be. We stress the importance of breaking this cycle, for our sake and for the generations to come.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand generational trauma, navigate narcissistic relationships or just looking for some festive cheer amidst the single life.
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https://www.tiktok.com/@last.piece.of.pie?_t=8j0uDxkYoVm&_r=1
Send us your comments or questions and we will answer them on the show!
email - lastpieceofpiepodcast@gmail.com
Have you ever stopped to question why you are the way you are? Why certain behaviors or patterns seem to echo in your family? Prepare to decode these mysteries with Dr. Leslie Bartley, a psychology professor who specializes in marriage and family therapy. We shed light on the ever-present impacts of generational trauma on various ethnic and minority groups, unraveling complex issues such as alcoholism and abuse.
Have you been in a relationship where you feel constantly drained? We've been there too. Sharing our personal stories, we delve into the murky world of narcissism and how it shapes relationships and family dynamics. We discuss the rampant phenomenon of people pleasing in these relationships, emphasizing the need to recognize and disrupt this pattern, no matter how difficult the resulting conversations with family members may be. We stress the importance of breaking this cycle, for our sake and for the generations to come.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand generational trauma, navigate narcissistic relationships or just looking for some festive cheer amidst the single life.
Social Media: LPoP
https://www.instagram.com/lastpieceofpiepodcast/
https://www.threads.net/@lastpieceofpiepodcast
https://www.tiktok.com/@last.piece.of.pie?_t=8j0uDxkYoVm&_r=1
Send us your comments or questions and we will answer them on the show!
email - lastpieceofpiepodcast@gmail.com
Welcome, el Papers. This is last piece of pie. I'm Jen, and today we have a special guest named Dr Leslie Bartley. We're so excited to be here. Dr Leslie is a psychology professor and has been a teaching in Southwest Florida since 2010. She has her BA in MS in psychology, with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy, and a PhD in psychology with an emphasis in human behavior. Prior to academia, she started as a young therapist working with adolescents and families, so the more she counseled youth and their families, the more she wanted to be more proactive in preventing some mental health issues arising from environmental contacts and family dynamics in school atmosphere. And it's through this work that Dr Leslie has gained appreciation for education and started considering making more of an impact within the classroom instead of therapy. Dr Leslie loves to work out Woo, my fellow metabolism rose up later. Love to cook, bake, travel, watch as way too much television. Don't we all cheering on her green bean backers? Oh yeah, loves is a foodie. Loves drinks Amen. Delights spending time with her friends and family. Welcome, dr Leslie.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yes, Today's episode, since we're around the holidays and it's always a good time for stressful situations with family. We're going to talk a little bit about generational trauma.
Speaker 3:Oh girl, I got none of that.
Speaker 2:Mel, was it you who I've heard on your on?
Speaker 3:your Leslie. I'm a big football fan, so your green Bay Packers came out for the win this week.
Speaker 2:Oh, that was a big win. And of course, my old ass fell asleep at half time, so you know I was like it was such a good game. Yeah, it was a great game. Who's your team Lions?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, they just be. I know girls that for them to come off of that win, I was like yeah yeah, well, hey, your Lions are looking really good, so it's been a long time coming.
Speaker 2:I know that.
Speaker 3:Well, congrats on your win. I was watching for Taylor, but I saw her, and you know a royal, yeah yeah, you can't hate it.
Speaker 2:You can't hate on that, hey can't hate on that. Maybe now the NFL will actually appreciate that women are gaining, you know, increasing in the audience of NFL and well appreciate us a little more as fans.
Speaker 3:So right, Thanks, Taylor. Yeah, whoo whoo.
Speaker 1:So let's start off with kind of defining generational trauma for our listeners out there.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so generational trauma there's a few different terms If you look it up. I usually refer back to the APA, american Psychological Association. They kind of refer to it as intergenerational trauma, and it's usually when there's a trauma or a stressor that extends from one generation to the next. Right, and how that transmission occurs is kind of still kind of unknown. But there's a lot of different factors. We're looking at biological factors with your DNA, which involves epigenetics, which is like way above my pay grade and more so. What we kind of see, particularly within, like therapy and just I think, kind of based on what we're going to be talking about, is learn to be hairy, learn behaviors and shared experiences. And so what happens is you'll have, you know, one generation will experience trauma or a stressor. You know it doesn't have to be, you know significant trauma. It could be just an overwhelming stressor, and then it gets shared to the next generation and then to the next generation, unless and this is kind of where we're going the cycle can get broken.
Speaker 3:Okay, so my big question is what's the difference between trauma and curses, or is it the?
Speaker 2:same thing, just trauma and curses. Well, now we're getting all like supernatural girl, right?
Speaker 1:To me it's like a curse, is like something that somebody put on your fan or they're like yeah, um, okay, because one way.
Speaker 3:There's generational curses in my family. You really don't hear many people say there's generational trauma in my family.
Speaker 2:But it could be trauma. They're just labeling as curses, so no one has to take accountability. Oh, oh, oh oh. Boom dropped it on.
Speaker 1:No, but think about it.
Speaker 2:Because, like trauma, the way that I've looked at trauma is a lot of time. Trauma is something that you experience that you weren't asking for, right, you didn't ask for this experience. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, it's still an experienced event, whereas a curse is more intentional. You are purposefully trying to really just instill some bad vibes and bad attitude and bad learned behaviors. So I think sometimes the trauma could be, it could be a curse and then it could not be, depending on how people are responding to it. If that makes any sense, right, yeah, it does make any sense. Like, if you're saying like, oh, we've been cursed, it's like, really, have you been cursed? What voodoo doctor did you piss off? Or did you actually have trauma?
Speaker 2:And instead of being like, okay, this shit happened, let's work through it, you're like, oh, my God, this happened to me. I have no control, I can't do anything about it, I must be cursed. Right, that's where you kind of get that curse. If you want to look at it that way, is people refusing to see if they have any sort of input or any sort of control into it? We can't control everything, right, so we already know that. But how you respond to things, what have you contributed to. It can be a part of that control as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know, like I've read and I've seen and people talked a lot about minority and ethnic groups that have generational trauma Holocaust survivors we know African. Americans, which is that one set of generational trauma. And then for people who aren't minorities, but like alcoholism and abuse, does that also generational trauma?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean I guess you could say that there might be different categories, right? So when they were doing the initial research on generational trauma with Holocaust survivors and also within the Japanese American families with the internment camps that we had in the US, which I was fascinated by seeing how that oppression and the poor treatment kind of did, you could see it like people who were like third generation removed could feel it, right, they could feel they still had that anxiety, they had that depression, they had that questioning of identity that stemmed from that treatment earlier. But yeah, absolutely. When we see intergenerational trauma that's not related to any sort of ethnic minority trauma, you're looking at behaviors, right. So we're looking at abuse. We're looking at alcoholism, substance abuse. We also can look at not necessarily learned behaviors but circumstances. So another one we would see is like poverty, right. So when we're looking at people who grew up in excessive poverty, that is also a generational trauma.
Speaker 2:So if you have different kind of categories, yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if you really is one worse than the other. They all suck. I'm not going to dismiss the generational trauma I might have experienced with substance abuse and abuse and things like that. My family. Yeah, I'm not going to say my shit's worse than somebody whose great-great-grandparents went through the Holocaust. It's just, it's there and it's something that we can at least appreciate I mean, appreciate's not the right word because you don't want to appreciate it, but we can acknowledge that there's different types of categories of that trauma.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, one of the things that we say around here is like let's focus on our healing, not on our trauma. So I feel like it's okay to recognize it and then deal with it, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But that's the problem. How can you?
Speaker 1:recognize if you have generational trauma. If you, I guess there's times where you do and then there's times where maybe you don't know that it is. And how can you recognize something like that?
Speaker 2:So that's probably. That's like the million dollar question, right? How do you know that your stuff, that you're dealing with, is related to generational trauma? Less than that, the science for generational trauma.
Speaker 3:Just an example yeah, you want to use me as a guinea pig, please? Yes, yes, let's do this, let's do this. You can answer Jen's question by using me. So I've got four generations. Okay, every generation has been divorced three times. Every one Not even skipped one.
Speaker 2:Three, Three generations. Is it gendered Marriage? Is it gendered Like? Is it just the women?
Speaker 3:All the females.
Speaker 2:All the females.
Speaker 3:And I called my mom and I had some, like you know, questions. Every one of them had some kind of abuse in their life, whether it was sexual, physical, emotional, and our L poppers know, like my story and the abuse that I've gone through in my first marriage. So if you want to use me for an example, letter rep girl, yeah.
Speaker 2:Actually that, okay, yeah, that's primarily it. So the signs for generational trauma can look like symptoms of other potential mental health stuff, right Anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, anger management, sometimes even eating disorders, insomnia. Right, it runs the gamut To know if it's intergenerational trauma. We want to and you nailed it look at the relationships. Right, you want to look at the relationships. So, seeing that there's been that divorce is so were the divorces a response to the abuse?
Speaker 3:Some, I would say yes, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I mean, goodness, I don't want to make my generation come after me here, but my hair I?
Speaker 2:know it's like are we getting in trouble? I don't need your mom to call me and yell at me or anything.
Speaker 1:You've got two marriages, so your third one's going to be your last or someone's dying, but all of them had some. One of the marriages had abuse. Okay. All of them, yeah, all of them.
Speaker 3:Oh for me.
Speaker 1:So all four generations. At least one of the marriages involved abuse.
Speaker 2:Right Involved abuse. Okay, so we are.
Speaker 3:A deeper issue is just choosing shitty men and if I could be really frank, like this year, everyone's like I want you to date, go out and date. So I did. I dated all year long and it was awful and, to be honest, that's. The only person I attract is a narcissistic, controlling, loving Anything else. Can't get a librarian mathematician. Nothing, I'm training her.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, okay, so you are. How about this? If you're attracting narcissists and maybe the women in your family have also attract narcissists, are you guys falling from a tree of people pleasers?
Speaker 1:Yes, she is a people pleaser 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why you're a magnet for narcissists. Because you are, it sounds like, and this is definitely going to be a learned behavior. It might be a little bit of DNA, because I'm a people pleaser. I'm actually trying to be. Hi, my name's Leslie, I'm a people pleaser. Recovery, I'm working on it, but this comes from when we've been. Maybe, I think you in one of your other episodes you'd mentioned, maybe, were you the caretaker, mel, yes, Okay, so you might have been put into a caretaker role earlier than you needed to. So then any sort of confidence, self-esteem boosting, everything was going to be conditional. So then we turn into these people pleasers because all we want is to make, we want approval, even though, let's be honest, and this is something Jen and I we jammed about right is the only person that should make you happy is you, but we never get that message until we're like in our forties and it's looking at the bus, the bottom of a wine bottle.
Speaker 2:And like why does no one like me? Because you're supposed to like yourself, bitch, Come on.
Speaker 1:But, but this is what happens Others.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so we seek this validation.
Speaker 2:So narcissists, it's like because I had a narcissist right and man like I got love bombed in the beginning, made me feel like I was the shit because I am, but at that time I didn't realize what he was doing and then he just sucked off my ego because that's what they do. So narcissists are actually inherently insecure and they are they. They really don't have that authentic self of worth. They think they they're like I am the shit, but really am I. And so they have this or and so they get from you. They take from you that they're literally like a succubus, if you will, right, yeah. And then when you match it with a people pleaser, that's all you're doing is trying to keep that person happy so that you get that approval Like I'm doing right, I'm getting validation, I am doing what I'm supposed to. This is such a learned behavior.
Speaker 2:So what I'm guessing is that from woman to woman in your family, we watched the people pleasing. We watched it with my own mother, like with her parents. My dad was not a narcissist, he was the most chill dude. He's like whatever, baby, I love you forever. And actually that kind of she's like I don't like it, kind of like you know it was a little tough, but I watched her always try to seek approval from people. And then I had to step in. I was a caretaker role.
Speaker 2:I'm the oldest of three siblings and so then I took care of my younger siblings and so I was kind of in this parentified role where I'm taking care of everybody and I always was like you know, they would always be like you're good girl, good job, good doing this. So I'm like oh great, I'm good. It's not coming organically, right, it's not that natural, like I should feel good about myself. Didn't come organically, I was getting it from other people and that kind of helps build that foundation for people pleasing. And then when a narcissist sees that they're like ooh, that's fresh bait, that's my source, horsely bears, yeah Right, like you're just this gorgeous national park garbage, can that?
Speaker 1:just was.
Speaker 2:You're this beautiful garbage can at a campsite that a bunch of Boy Scouts just rocked and you're like, ooh, look at this, you know. No, you're not a garbage. Can you get what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:like that lady over there. Yeah, so I love it that. I think Mel has recognized this pattern. So you recognize the pattern or you see that this has been going on in your family. So, give it a name. Right, I recognize that this pattern is happening. So then, what happened? Like, what do you do after that?
Speaker 3:Oh well, I like, though, how you just like verified the route though, so my route would be. I always say that you've got to get through, so the route would be people pleasing. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:How do you fix that? So that's going to be tough because you can really only fix yourself right, like we can't make other people do anything else, and so it might be some tough. And, like you had mentioned before, like you've had some tough conversations with your mom, right, and like I know I've had some tough conversations with my mom, like because my folks are also divorced. Okay, I'm not divorced. I got married way late in life. I think I saved myself a divorce, at least because I did not marry the narcissist. But you know, it's been tough to talk about those things and that's when, like, that's where you need to, when you get to the root you'll be like so when did this start? And that's when people have a hard time acknowledging their role, even though oftentimes the people pleaser is kind of in the victim role, like I hate saying that because that like it makes you feel like it sounds like weak or anything like that, and that's not what I'm going for.
Speaker 2:But there is kind of, if we have to kind of categorize it, or you know, in that dynamic you've got the narcissist and you've got the people pleaser. The people pleaser is essentially the victim of the predator, like they're a predator. They're preying on your kindness, on your empathy, on your you know, awesomeness. So to get the quote unquote victim to acknowledge how did they buy into it is tough. Because then you're admitting Holy shit, I allowed that to happen. And so that's where you might get stuck, right. So you might get stuck when you have those conversations with the women in your family. You know so, four generations. You know you may not be able to have some of those conversations, but that might be tough because they may not want to. And that's where the healing stems from is admitting shit, I allowed this to happen. So how can I stop?
Speaker 3:I totally agree with that, because that's when my healing began, when I took accountability and said you know what? I have a role. I could have said no, I had a lack of boundaries. I was. I stayed in America for 16 years. I was asked, I allowed him to treat me like that and as soon as I like changed that mindset, girl, I got free and free and like now, when you look back you're like, oh, do you get like an ick feeling?
Speaker 3:You're like oh, you're like, oh man, I'm like, yeah, I fall for this shit Seriously.
Speaker 1:I'm like angry, not the icky, you get very angry. And yeah, you know, mel is a daughter, so now we need to teach the generations after us not to have these same characteristics as us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that's where the conversations might be how old's your daughter?
Speaker 3:Well, she is 18. And one of my favorite things I have written on my mirror is what I don't trans, or I trans her and I refuse to transfer this shit to her. Yeah, like that's why I'm so passionate about therapy and healing and just not getting stuck with another.
Speaker 2:Well and so okay. So since she's 18, she's, you know, cognitively at that spot where she could appreciate conversations on healthy relationships. But the you know, the biggest thing for you know, being a people pleaser isn't inherently evil or wrong or anything. We're good people. We just often put other people first and then, you know, we do things for these people and then we get resentful when we don't get it back because we have this like expectation, right, like and I that's a hard thing for me to have learned Like I don't, I can't expect people to act like me.
Speaker 1:True.
Speaker 2:Because that's unfair, right. Like that's like that magic, like I have these magical like you're supposed to read my mind, like this is how I would act, so I expect you to act. That's not, that's not right. Like we all have our different perceptions, backgrounds, things like that. So I think it would be important to be like, hey, it's okay to be wanting to do things for people, but do it for the right reasons, right. Like are you doing it too because you love them and care? Are you doing it to eventually get something back, like what is your intention here? And then you want to put up?
Speaker 2:Then obviously, the biggest thing, especially to break this trauma, is boundaries. Right, and you guys have talked a lot about that already is setting those boundaries. And then something again you guys have been talking about communicating those boundaries, right, like saying, like this is my boundary, please respect it and you'll know when you start setting the boundaries, like sometimes you don't even have to be captain, obvious, with them, but you'll know when you set them. So, for example, like I like this semester for me was really busy, right, so I had to cut back on my social budget and also it's too peoply outside, it's getting gross, but I, you know, people will be like, hey, let's do this. I'm like, oh, you know, actually I'm going to stay in. You know I need to recharge. And they're like, oh, will you never come out? And I'm like, that's okay, you know I'll see you next week and I'd get a little, you know, rebuff, and then it would be fine.
Speaker 2:And then I started to realize the people that were okay with it respected my boundaries. The people that were not okay did not respect the boundaries because now they no longer were able to get whatever I was giving them without those boundaries, right? So when you start setting those boundaries whether or not you're really obvious about them or you're just implementing them how people react will show you how they viewed you and how they've perceived you For lack of a better way to say it is how they've used you right, because we all use each other right. Yeah, ideally it's mutual and it's a two way street. But if you start setting boundaries and people are like, well, why is this happening? Now it's like, oh, okay, so you don't like this. Now, that means that you were getting something out of it and taking advantage of it. And now that I'm trying to be healthy, you don't like it because you no longer get to treat me the way that you want it to. I'm showing you how to treat me now.
Speaker 1:That is so impactful because I feel like sometimes it's easier to have that boundary with friends and relationships, but when it comes to, like, immediate family, it's so much harder when that's probably the people you need to set those boundaries with. So if you're a young person and you have to set a boundary with, like, maybe it's your mom or maybe it's your dad, or if it's a sibling, like, how do you get over that fear of setting that boundary?
Speaker 2:That's an excellent question and I don't really know if I have an awesome answer for it, other than it's kind of a rip the bandaid off. Yeah, right, because setting boundaries, you're absolutely right. Setting boundaries with friends, that's fine. Setting boundaries with partners, that's a little harder. But if it's a right partner for you, they'll be like oh sure, thanks for telling me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I remember very early when I was dating my husband now my husband, but we weren't married at the time and I was acting because I was very good at being passive, aggressive and if you, mel, maybe you can relate to this with your narcissist the only way I could ever communicate was being passive aggressive Because every time I did the right thing, because I'm a therapist, I was a therapist right, and I'd be like hey, honey, I'd like to talk to you. I felt this way when this happened, like I did the right thing, right, I used the I statements, I came from how I felt and I didn't attack. By the end of the conversation, somehow I was apologizing for feeling hurt and I was like what the fuck? What is the huh? And then, so you know, I'd stop communicating. So eventually it got to the point where he'd come home. He'd be like hey, babe. I'd be like hi, is something wrong, I don't know, is there? Like I was so passive, I was so bad. Again, not the anger now. Now I get kind of the you know, giggly, ick feeling and he'd be like well, and then he knew what was wrong. He'd be like well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he'd yell at me and he'd go into it. I was like okay, and then he'd storm off and then 10 minutes later he'd come in and he'd apologize and then we would have the conversation we should have had in the beginning.
Speaker 2:But I couldn't get there without having to play this stupid game. So I started playing the stupid game with my husband. Oh, he was not having it the moment I did that. He's like listen, I'm going to ask you once if there's something wrong and tell me. Tell me what's going on. I can't read your mind. He's like, but after I ask you that first time and you don't tell me, I'm going to move on. And I was like mind blown. He's like I can't read your mind. If I've upset you, please communicate with me. And I was like wait, this is what the healthy relationships I read about in grad school are supposed to look like. Is this real? This isn't just a textbook case study, it's actually happening. It's absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 2:So with partners sorry, kind of a squirrel tangent, but with partners, ideally, if it's the right partner, you can set the boundaries. But yeah, you're absolutely right with immediate family, and I think part of it is because we have this social construct that this whole blood is thicker than water thing and that if you're blood family you should just deal with it. And I think that is the most toxic message we have been taught. And I know I've gotten a little like I've had to cut people off in my family and it was not easy and I let them know why I was cutting them off and I wasn't even like, hey, I cut you off. I'm like, listen, I need to take a step back from this because of X, y and Z. It's really hard. It's really really hard because not only will you probably get rebuffed by that individual, but then you've got the other family members who decide to chime in, because what you've done now is you've disrupted the dynamic. You called out the thing that wasn't supposed to be called out and that's where the problem of generational trauma kind of stems from is not addressing it.
Speaker 2:We see a lot of this, particularly within minority families, because they didn't want outside help. You keep it in the family. That's a very strong cultural belief. I've had a lot of my students. When we talk about I'm like, let's talk about therapy they're like, well, my parents won't support it Because, again, there's that idea that you can't trust anybody from the outside. You have to deal with it in the inside. So you're going to probably have. Not only are you going to get some blowback from the person you need to put some distance in, but then everybody else is going to be upset with you because you set a boundary, you've disrupted, you rocked the boat, if you will, and they're going to be like why'd you do that? Because they are unhealthy? Oh, they're fine, as they drink their fifth of vodka at 7 AM just to get going for work.
Speaker 2:It's like is everything really OK so?
Speaker 3:that's a walk away from a few family members after my divorce because they were just too toxic and it was my healing phase and if you weren't bringing healthiness into my life it wasn't going to work, because I had a lot of work to do. Yeah, it was a tough choice and, yes, I still do miss them, but I love my healing much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think at some point you have to say what is going to be healthy for me, even if I have to cut you off because you can't continue to live like that, I think. And you just can't continue to put yourself in such a toxic environment. This is going to make you worse.
Speaker 2:And what good are you Right? Yeah, the thing is, everybody can only be responsible for living their own lives, and so if that means that my mental health, my well-being, if I need to step away from you because of your treatment towards me and maybe your own unresolved stuff, then that's the way it has to be, because I have to live my life. You're not living it for me. And that's kind of the tricky part, because I keep seeing these memes. Now that it's especially the holidays, you see all these memes like always be there for family. It's like, well, what if they are really unhealthy? How is that good for anybody?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes your family is not your blood family. Sometimes it's a step-parent, sometimes it's a friend, sometimes it's just blood is family, but there's other forms of family.
Speaker 2:I think chosen family is really, really highlighting, and that's why I kind of emphasize the whole idea of the social construct. This is the idea that there's only one type of family. It's that kind of nuclear blood, that relational family, and yeah, that's important. But why would I continue to spend time and give my energy and give space to somebody who does not respect me is potentially harmful not just to me but also to themselves, right?
Speaker 1:Right, it's like Uncle Bob's coming over for dinner. Everybody's got the ick about him and he's you know. Nobody wants to be around him, but everybody keeps inviting him. It's like why.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's go ahead and talk about that Like one of the things I teach my students. You know I'm like listen for you future. You know parents slash caregivers. Do not force your kids to kiss grandma and grandpa yeah, if they don't want to hug them, if they don't want to kiss them, don't make them do it. Bodily autonomy, man, that's a boundary. If they want to give grandma a kiss, hell yeah. If they don't say grandma, can I give you a hug instead? You know, give them options, but there's this whole thing. They have to do it. It's like ooh, no, no, no, no no, hey, leslie.
Speaker 3:so my ex's family. They are big kissers on the lips, so the grandkids had to kiss the grandparents on the lips and my girl was like I'm not doing it, oh, thank you. And I'm like no wonder why she was my shadow at all those parties.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love my grandma, but I'm not kissing her on the lips, hell, no.
Speaker 2:But also, just like you know, maybe that's you know, for some people that's their jam, like they're very affectionate. That's cool. That was not me, no, you know I'm. You know like, and so that's you know. Again, setting those boundaries like very early on, but that's you know. Again, we're talking, you know hindsight, always 2020. Like, if I could have gone back 20 years, you know. So now it's like how do I heal now? And really it is tough, and I'm not saying, you know, telling everybody to be like tell that toxic person in your family to fuck off, and you know, and peace out and be done with it. You know, I'm not saying that, but just you know, be aware, like the biggest thing to heal. And you know you're probably, since you're on your journey, you're obviously you know this is probably something that's I'm just reiterating, but the self-awareness right, and being very self-aware of how, these, how what you're feeling and what they're, what they are related to and what they're connected to, and so seeing the treatment.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you have to go through a grieving process of somebody off in your family. Right, you got to go through like a grieving process and know that you're doing the right thing, but you just grieve it and then move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and then plus the people, please are so like the exact same thing. Like there's still our moments when I'm like, oh, I feel really bad. Did I make the right decision? Should I? Am I overreact? Like it's so like we just take so much ownership of stuff we don't need to own right. Like, let me guess, since you're a people, please are you. Well, you may not do it anymore, but let me guess you say I'm sorry constantly.
Speaker 3:Oh no, not anymore.
Speaker 2:Oh hell, no, Okay, good, but you did right, like you're like I step my toe, you're like I'm sorry, and you're like what, the what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the last narcissist, the guy that tried to well, you hurt my feelings. You owe me an apology, pardon me. Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like, here's your apology, good luck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but you know it's so. That's just. That's the tough part. So what I've done and I think I would argue I'm still kind of grieving from cutting the family member off One of the things I did and I actually encouraged my former when I was, you know, counseling and doing therapy and whatnot.
Speaker 2:I would encourage my clients to do this. But I wrote a letter to that person and I it was like a grievance, it was like my Festivus letter, if you would like Seinfeld like I got a problem with you people. So I like put all my grievances, I put all the reasons in the letter as to why I needed to cut this person off with the and not I was not intending to mail it, but for me it was more of just getting it out there so that I could visualize and, like put all of the thoughts and all of the ideas that I had about you know why I needed to cut you off. Like and it was for me again, am I making the right decision? Who am I hurting? Who am I hurting? All these people, like you know, because there's all again, there's blowback, right, there's always going to be people that are upset with what you're doing because it inconveniences them somehow, right, even though they should be like hey, how's your well-being, how's your health, are you doing?
Speaker 2:okay, they're more well. You inconvenienced me because now I have to deal with their bullshit. You're like well, thanks, that's great, right, but that was helpful in my grieving process. And you know people don't realize that you know grief, a loss of a relationship, even a toxic, horrible soul draining, you know, keep you up at night. Relationship is still a loss, right, because you still, you still had that was still something, right, you had, you had that. And to end it, to have to cut it off, you know that's the tricky part and that's when you're still grieving it.
Speaker 3:So, leslie, we are definitely running out of time and we can talk to you for about five hours.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And if you will be so kind to help me recap, so that way I could help the L-Poppers to deal with generational traumas? Sure, I believe you want to. You want all of us to break them, no matter what age we're at, no matter what generation you're on. It's very important to deal with this, to get to the root, talk about it and then set the boundaries.
Speaker 2:And then also, I would encourage you to you know, maybe even before you you know, establish the boundaries. I can't encourage this enough. Talk to a therapist, right. Talk to a mental health professional. Say, hey, this is what I'm going through, this is what I'm feeling, here's what I think might be the root cause. Before I go ahead and start cutting all these things, can we work through it right?
Speaker 2:Because I think the strongest thing, you know, one of the things you had mentioned was the fear of cutting people off, role play right. One of the best tactics as a good therapist would be to role play like practice right. Practice what you need to say so that it feels authentic, right, and it feels good and you know that you're going, you are doing what is right for you I cannot emphasize that enough. And then you know, by working through that, you're going to be able to establish some coping skills, to get there to cut those people off and then to help you kind of deal with whatever you're going through Depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, a lot of the things that can happen with generational trauma. That would be a big, big piece of it as well.
Speaker 1:Right, and if you have to show up for a family holiday event, you can put boundaries on yourself and be like I'm only going to be here an hour, or if I have to talk to this person, I'm going to limit it to this, and then you're going to be able to cope with it better.
Speaker 2:That's a great like. For example, if you know, maybe you have very differing opinions with somebody or this person's just they like to bait you, right? Just know the triggers, right, what are the trigger words? Like if you've not only are you shaking your head know their keywords, right, and so when they start, when they say this, you could maybe be like, oh I forgot, I need to go, like excuse yourself, right, you don't want to create a scene, you don't want to create drama, you don't want to be that guy at the holiday dinner Right, but know the patterns, take a moment to realize the patterns so you can come up with an exit strategy or a way to like remove yourself, so you don't get triggered into feeling terrible when you shouldn't. And then also not you don't want to have, like, a huge blowout fight at Christmas dinner because, even though you're in the right, I guess who's going to get blamed? Right, right.
Speaker 3:So my new theory going into the holidays for everybody is this is what we should all say, because a lot of us single people get the?
Speaker 1:are you meeting it? Why are you single?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this is my answer, el Poppers, our answer is going to be it's on its way. Are you married yet?
Speaker 2:It's on its way. I found a man, yet he's on its way. I like it. Have you got a cab yet? It's on its way I like it. I'm still waiting. I'm still waiting. It's on its way. I got the tracking number. I'm still waiting. What was it? Supply chain delay.
Speaker 1:No, right, right, still COVID messing with our supply chain. But, absolutely, it's been amazing. I'm so glad we met Leslie, I'm so. Thank you so much for coming on and talking to us. We're going to have to have you on again, absolutely, and a less little deeper topic, something a more lighthearted.
Speaker 2:That's all good. I love this stuff. This is my jam, so yeah, whatever you guys want to chat about, I'm down. So this was wonderful.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it, yeah, so thank you and I hope you have a great Christmas with your husband and your doggies back there, and we appreciate you coming on.