1. Marisela Martinez on choosing what is best for you

Meet my dear friend and former coworker Marisela.  As a first-generation Mexican American, Sela offers a fresh perspective on the societal expectations, relationships, and the fear of regret that can influence the choice to be childfree

Today we dissect the pressures and misconceptions surrounding women who opt not to have children, bringing to light the importance of staying true to oneself. 
This episode isn't just about being childfree; it's about the freedom to choose your path without societal impositions. We're breaking down prejudices and challenging narratives. 

If you've ever felt the pressure to conform or questioned your decisions, I hope that this episode will resonate deeply. We'll explore how the pandemic spotlighted the challenges of raising children and emphasized the importance of self-care. The episode concludes with a powerful discussion on the fear of regret often associated with choosing to be childfree. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to Child Free Me, a podcast where we talk about what it's like to make the choice to be child free in today's world. I'm your host, laura Allen, and I started this podcast because I'm in my late 30s, have known I don't want to have children for quite some time at this point and really became desperate to speak with other people who have made the same decision and to hear what their experience is like. So thanks for joining me. Let's dive in. So for my very first episode, I am speaking with my dear friend and a former coworker, maricela, because she's really the first woman who spoke to me about being child free in that decision. As you listen to this episode, you'll just hear how quietly confident she is in that decision and how she hasn't let society pressure her or question the choice to be child free. She talks about how she's, in fact, not child free at all. She has many nieces and nephews and children who she loves deeply in her life and she's really vulnerable. I really appreciate how she was willing to open up and talk about some topics that can be uncomfortable. So let's get started.

Speaker 1: 1:13

So, sella, it's so good to see you. We worked together for many, many years. You've been such a mentor to me. So I'm so excited to be able to speak to you about this, because when I started thinking about this podcast, you were the first person who popped into my mind, because you were really the first woman in the workplace who I felt had put a stake in the ground around being child free and would talk about it. And back then I don't even know if I'd made the decision to be child free and I'm just so grateful. So with that, can you walk us through what your journey was like to choosing to be child free? Thank you, laura.

Speaker 2: 1:46

It's nice to talk to you again and appreciate your kind words about our work time together and our friendship, and I'm so glad that we're still talking to each other in other ways and in about this particular topic. You don't always know the impact that you're going to have on other people, and so I'm touched that my comments or what I shared was something that was helpful to you or just a different point of view than you had seen before, so I'm glad about that. So before I jump into the to answering the question, I wanted just to give a little context of who I am, how old I am, because I think that makes a difference or will inform the listeners about why and how. So I am 59 years old. I was born in 1964.

Speaker 2: 2:29

So I became of age in the 70s, early 80s, and many people may not have been born yet, who may be listening to this, but it was a time when women were starting to get more in the workforce, going to college more so than they are now and so women having access and women having different options in their life was really something I was seeing a lot as a young woman, and I also am first generation Mexican American, and so I grew up in a household that was very traditional Mexican Catholic, that had a very traditional role for women as far as what women could do or should do in the family and in the workplace, and so I feel like I grew up in two worlds at that time.

Speaker 2: 3:18

At home I had a certain way that I was expected to be in, behave and things that I was supposed to do, and then at school and in my American life, I had a lot of access and information and different friends and exposure to a lot of different things, and I know that I gravitated toward that, and so that idea of options, freedom, being able to experience different things, was so exciting to me.

Speaker 2: 3:44

I was youngest child in my family, youngest of four, so I was the last one to be considered. Oftentimes I wanted to be my own person, do my own things, have a different experiences, and so as I was growing up and in my early teenage years and junior high and high school I think I saw I'm a very observant person too that's something I've learned about myself over the years is that I take things in and I observe and I learn from other people's examples beyond my own, but also like see what other people do, and I saw what other women were doing. Some were going off to college and really preparing for that, and others were having children at a younger age. I knew, probably since the age of five, that I wanted to go to college. I don't know why, but I knew that I wanted to do that, and whether I saw it or heard it from other people, whatever, so that was that different from the rest of your family.

Speaker 2: 4:40

Yes in that. Well, my sister, who is the oldest of the four of us, did go to college for a couple of years and then didn't continue but I think she helped set that example as the older sister and then other things around me.

Speaker 2: 4:54

My brothers did not go on to higher ed but it was just something that I knew I wanted to do, and so that being the goal to me. Children was just not part of that and not that, even like today, women definitely go to college and get degrees and have children do all that. For me at that age, and then, coming from a background that was also a working class family, lower working class in terms of economics, options were not a lot, so you had to take what you could get and there were opportunities that were presented in terms of opportunities to go to summer school and camps and things that were related to schools I was really into like I just want to be a good student and have fun and learn and that's all I saw for myself, and so it wasn't so much a choice of I don't want to have children as a young, a teenager late teens or early 20s it was. I want to do this other thing, and having kids is just not going to allow for that, at least what I saw available to me. So it doesn't mean that people women camp it just with the means that I had. That wasn't what I was looking for. And then I saw friends that did choose to have children in their late teens or early 20s and how challenging it was for them, and certainly not a judgment on their life or their choice. But I was also, like I said, very observant about what that meant. That was a very big commitment, a lot of responsibility at a young age and I took that very seriously in. I knew for myself. But I don't want that commitment and so in my early 20s any college I met my my now husband. We will be married 34 years coming next week.

Speaker 2: 6:36

We got married right after school and again not something that I had thought that I would do quite at such a young age got married at 25. And that in and of itself is a huge commitment to meet someone that you feel so strongly about at such a young age and make that big commitment. And he and I had conversations early on in our relationship. He did not want children. He had come from a family where he was the oldest and had helped with a lot of the childcare and he knew firsthand what the responsibility was and had done a lot of the childcare of his younger siblings and he doesn't have any bad feelings about his siblings.

Speaker 2: 7:15

It was just like he saw what a huge commitment it was and he didn't want that for himself and I was like, yeah, I don't want that either. And so very quickly became like, yeah, we agree on this, very early into our relationship and then into knowing that going into our marriage as well. I wouldn't say that there was like a specific moment or day or thing that happened that made me decide. It was I wanted to have some control over my life and the direction of my life and making decisions for myself and seeing that college meant choices and opportunity and that going in that direction was going to give me those experiences and those opportunities that having a child at a younger age would have changed or delayed or limited perhaps. And I remember people asking me yo are you guys gonna have kids?

Speaker 2: 8:06

When are you having kids? And we said no, and then people would ask why? And it's like, oh well, cause it's a huge commitment and it's this, and it's like, oh, you're overthinking it. I remember people saying you're overthinking it and I thought oh no, this is the decision you really, really, really should think about.

Speaker 2: 8:24

You can't underthink this decision and I also will share that personally, I, as a female, never had that maternal desire that other women have shared with me, that they've said, like I just know, they want to have the experience. They feel this maternal pains. Whatever you instinct, whatever you call it, I never felt that.

Speaker 1: 8:44

Hi everyone. I'm pausing here just for a moment because after the interview wrapped and Sella and I were just talking, she actually referenced back to this moment when she was talking about not having the maternal instinct and said that there was actually another reason. When I asked her why she didn't talk about it during the interview, she said she didn't want to make anyone feel scared or uncomfortable, and I encouraged her to speak her truth because I think it's an important topic that needs to be talked about. So she agreed to be recorded and I'm actually gonna put that segment in here. Just a warning that we do discuss pregnancy complications and miscarriages. If those are topics that are triggering or uncomfortable for you to listen to, just fast forward a couple of minutes and we get back to the regular interview.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Thanks, For me, the idea of giving birth and that whole process was very scary. It was terrifying to me to think I'm creating a human and this is what's gonna happen to my body and this is what's gonna come out, and then I'm gonna care for them. And from a very physical, biological aspect, it scared me.

Speaker 2: 9:49

I don't know where those feelings come from. I will share with you personally that my grandmother, my mother's mother, died at childbirth and died giving birth to twins, and one twin survived and the other one didn't. My mother had one miscarriage that I'm aware of. She was pregnant after me I'm the youngest but there was another child. She was pregnant almost to term, like six, seven months, and lost the baby, and so maybe that fear is it was internalized because of what I heard and saw in my immediate family that that is something that can happen and not that that was gonna be my story. Right. Some of that was out of circumstance and lack of resources. Some children didn't have the best child care during pregnancy, and same for my grandmother, who grew up on a farm. I probably would have had more access to resources, but it was enough to scare me into understanding that it was a very serious physical thing that I would go through.

Speaker 1: 10:48

I've had nightmares about being pregnant. So in these dreams I'm somehow pregnant and it's less about growing the child and having the child, it is oh God, how did I let this happen? And I have the fear of having to take care of the child. So it's less of the delivery and growing. So all valid. I truly think, the fact that it is probably trauma that could be passed on. I 100% believe in that. So I appreciate you being honest.

Speaker 2: 11:12

Yeah, and I hadn't thought of it quite in that way until I just sort of like really realized that that's my history. On my mother's side, the family, and then my brother who, his wife, five children had no challenges. So, I also have that example of, yes, things can go fine and you have healthy birth and no complications. But yeah, for me that was part of the difficulty being afraid and then also seeing it as a very, very serious thing.

Speaker 1: 11:40

Yeah, and again, I appreciate the honesty because it's not something that's talked about often. I would be interested how many women just truly have a fear around it and maybe there's shame or something that you don't want to admit to having fear. It's a traumatic experience. It can be a traumatic experience and I feel like there's a lot that's passed along that maybe we don't actually address or acknowledge.

Speaker 2: 12:01

Glad that I was able to share that, because it's my story. Don't want to scare anybody, but those feelings were true to me.

Speaker 1: 12:08

I appreciate you sharing that.

Speaker 2: 12:09

So when friends or family say that they feel that and they want that, I believe that that's true to them. I never really felt that or had that, so I didn't have that like strong desire to have that. I saw what a huge commitment it was and, as I was seeing friends and family doing that and I wanted to do other things, I wanted to have other experiences as a young person, and so did my partner, so that just became for us the path that we went down.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Yeah, there are so many things in there that speak to me, I think, in particular as someone about to get married. We've been dating for almost eight years and the number one question I get when people learn that I've decided to be child free is oh well, what does Zach want? Or the follow up is what if he changes his mind? So it's very much the assumption that we haven't discussed it at any length is number one, and number two is it's almost the implication is that I'm the one holding him back from having children, which in my mind is not the case, and I've talked to Zach about it and he's like oh no, no, in his mind, it's his idea not to have kids. So it sounds like you and your husband were aligned even before getting married. Is there ever been a moment where either of you had doubts, or has it always been? Oh no, we are 100% on this path.

Speaker 2: 13:24

I can say that we're 100% on that path and it's it's just been as as we've experienced things and as we've been a part of other people's lives.

Speaker 2: 13:34

it's just continues to reaffirm it and it's not in itself and not in a bad way or in a negative way toward anyone else. It's just like, oh yep, that we made the right decision, or, yes, that was the right thing for us. If you know deep inside you want to physically give birth and have a child, do it. Do it, and I'm doing what's true to me and I. That, I guess, is what is the core thing to be is be true to who and what you are and what you want, because that will then inform and impact any child that is around you, because they see you are being the true you.

Speaker 2: 14:10

And I wrote something down and and I hope it resonates in a way with you and others that just because a person decides to be child free doesn't mean that they don't have children in their life or that they don't care about children and caring for them and them being the next generation. I have four nieces and nephews that I am so proud to be their aunt, and being an aunt is a role that you can play, that is parental, it has those aspects and that has been an incredible gift to me. I am so proud of all of them. I am five times an aunt and four almost five great nieces and nephews that are one, that's one that's going to be born soon and and so you're not child free at all.

Speaker 1: 14:57

No, no, no many children in your life.

Speaker 2: 15:01

And it's amazing because I get to be the best aunt that I can be to. I can be a resource for them, a thought partner, a friend, a supporter, a champion, everything in addition to what their parents do, but in a different way, and I wouldn't trade that for the world. I love them just so much. Yeah, just because you're child free doesn't mean that you don't care about kids or don't want to be, have connections to other kids. It's just you don't choose that particular part for yourself Absolutely, and they're so lucky to have you.

Speaker 1: 15:33

So you talked a lot about family and friends who you watched decide to have children. How has that impacted your relationship with your friends and your family?

Speaker 2: 15:41

You know I think that with friends, as you get older, your circle of friends becomes smaller but stronger, in the sense that in college and in high school, like you have all these friends and all these people that you know, but then the ones that really stick with you and that are with you for life are those people that are really core to your circle. And so I look at their friendship as I'm friends with them and the aspects of their life. And so some of my friends have children and some of them don't, and some of them are married, some of them are not, some of them are older, some of them are younger, and each person, when they are a friend, like you take you accept all of them, all of that they are. And so I have a one of my dearest friends from college. She has a son who is probably getting close to 30. I knew him since you know he was in the womb and then when he was born, and have seen him grow up and still see him to this day and kind of an honorary auntie to him.

Speaker 2: 16:44

But it's been an amazing part of our friendship that, like we have our friendship, and then there is knowing her as a mom and as a wife and all of those aspects of her life. And then there's friends that don't have children, and we've had different relationships and different, so I feel like it's allowed me to have really broad friendships too. You're not just going to limit yourself to like I'm only going to be friends with people who have kids and who are like me or who belong to this circle or this, this group, and I only see them there. I have friends of different ages and different backgrounds, and children and no children, and married, not married.

Speaker 2: 17:20

So it's I think, it's been nice to just have so many different types of friends and in terms of family, in my particular immediate family, as I said, there were four of us siblings, two boys and two girls, and my sister and I both chose not to have children and my brother had five. So my mom got the grandkids that she probably wanted to have and they just came from one child and not all of us. But you know, I don't know that I've had a deep conversation with my sister about it, but I think she similarly was just like it's a lot. And we also were part of a family where my sister and I helped my mom a lot. We did a lot of things around the house to help her run the home, because she was, she worked out of the home and one of my brothers is developmentally disabled and so we cared a lot for him as well as we were growing up.

Speaker 2: 18:12

So the, the caregiving that happens as part of being a parent is just all something that's always been part of my life. And then when my niece's and nephew came in, we were babysitters and helpers and all those things. I think, occasionally, my extended family that lives in Mexico that I'm not as close with. I think they probably wonder like oh, I wonder what, what's wrong with them, why they didn't have kids?

Speaker 2: 18:38

And you know it's just just a different, different life, different choices.

Speaker 1: 18:42

I'm very impressed with how confident you are in this choice. Has there been moments where you sense more pressure from society than others, or do you even sense it? Do you feel it's there?

Speaker 2: 18:53

I don't sense it. The few people that have you know ever asked me why did you decide? Or was is there something physically that you why you didn't have them? And I I actually I don't know what it is that people have never really said anything to me directly either, just because they're like, oh, she's feels confident in her decisions, so why ask? I think sort of the misconceptions or stereotypes of not having children that I've heard and that that's actually been what I've reacted to more is when I've heard or read that they say that well, you're not a real woman if you don't give birth and have a child.

Speaker 2: 19:30

Like you're not really a woman because you don't know what it is to have that experience and that, I think, is not true and in many ways, I think being a mother and giving birth is only part of being a woman, and there are so many amazing mothers out there that adopt children, that go and get into relationships where they adopt children or they adopt their own, whatever, whatever the relationship. Maybe they were not the birth mother, but they are the mother.

Speaker 1: 19:58

And.

Speaker 2: 19:59

I would never take that away from those people, that is, their moms, and the respect that comes with that.

Speaker 2: 20:05

I don't know if that stereotype is still very much true, but I remember it early on when I was younger that that would be something that people would say you know. Well, you just don't really know what it's like, and you know, I think I can. Haven't experienced it, but I have a good imagination. I've seen deliveries in hospitals, I know how biologically it works and I just think there's so much more to being a woman and expanding that, the role of what a woman is and can be or just embracing all of that because I know, like my mom grew up in a very traditional way where she was expected to get married, have kids, and that is your role.

Speaker 2: 20:46

You are a wife and a mom and a caregiver and a homemaker, and those were the roles that were expected and assigned to her, but she was so much more than that that wasn't always highlighted and put at the forefront, and so that's where I sort of want to go with that is that being a mom is one aspect of a woman, and then there are so many other things. You are part of a community, you are a caregiver, you are. You know, in my mom's case she did so many things like she was a seamstress and she ran a seamstress business out of her house sewing for the people on the couch, so she was like a little entrepreneur.

Speaker 2: 21:22

She had a little gig on the side to make money. So she was that and she and she was an amazing cook and part of it of the local church and community and service, and so she had many aspects of her life, but what I think people saw or noticed more was, oh, she's a wife and a mom. She was so much more than that and I think that women can embrace all of those aspects of who they are.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Absolutely. I think one of the things I get is aren't you worried? You'll regret it one day and I'd be lying if I'd say I wasn't worried. I certainly, and very similar. Something that resonated that you said was I never felt the desire to have kids. Oftentimes people ask me how do you know you don't want to have kids? I almost want to be like how do you know you do? They pulled me. Well, when you turn 30, that will change. I hit 30. It all hasn't changed. I'm well past 30 now and it's just the feeling isn't there. But I have this fear, honestly, that all of a sudden I'll hit 50. And the feeling I'll get that feeling right.

Speaker 1: 22:21

And so this notion of oh you will, you're missing out on something. I think that's something that I fight a lot of. How do I know? I don't want them.

Speaker 2: 22:29

I'll go back to your point about are you going to change your mind at 50? And I can pretty much definitively say that you will not change your mind at 50, because with 50 comes menopause and all that stuff that changes in a way where you want it even less. That's a. That's a whole, nother podcast.

Speaker 2: 22:46

Good to know it's amazing if you can find a life partner that you'll really enjoy being with and want to have experiences with and be together, and then, in that, you have friends and family that have children that you can still be connected to and still have that connection to the broader community in your life and you could still have those experiences where you care for another child and you go to their birthday parties and graduations and do all those things that you you are not the parent, but you are still part of that community that cares for that child's well-being and wants the best for them.

Speaker 2: 23:22

And you and I both worked at an organization that was focused on education and providing education to some of the most underserved communities, and I very much felt like those students, by extension, were my kids, even though they did not live in my district, state or whatever. But I had this larger understanding of wanting to make sure those kids got a good primary and high school education and ultimately had more choices in their life to make, to be great human beings and citizens and all of that. So, yeah, that mission is what kept me going, that we were trying to have an impact on those children's lives.

Speaker 1: 24:01

Some of those kids were so cute Chloe and visiting the like kindergarteners. And I think that's another stereotype that you touched on, which is oh, you chose not to have children. You must hate children. I have a coworker a current coworker who I love, and she's two very cute children who will come on to screen sometimes and she'll be like run away. She's a little British accent, she's like run away. Laura doesn't like children. That's not true. Would I opt to babysit two kids in diapers? Probably not. That's not my forte.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Maybe when I have nieces and nephews I'll be willing to do that, but I was a summer camp counselor for many years five year olds and six year olds and they were so fun and cute and exhausting and I loved them. They were great.

Speaker 2: 24:40

And you probably had that experience to know the beauty of that and the commitment of that and the exhaustion of that, to know that, yeah, it has a lot of good things. And it's again going back to what it is that you want from your life. And I think now where our world is, where people can think about that more, when we weren't the roles of men and women and being so limited or that you can't take the time to really decide that. And if you do decide to be a mom and want that, absolutely do it and you will have friends and family that will be there for you.

Speaker 2: 25:17

And I think it's so amazing and child-free friends who will be there for you and child-free friends who will be there for you too and babysit or whatever, or just be supportive or be there for you when you need a night away, I guess for me. I didn't know that this is what I was doing at the time, but what I was prioritizing me, which can seem selfish and can seem like one of the stereotypes oh, you're just being selfish because you're not putting the child first.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Where do you? Think that comes from? Because I feel it too. I feel selfish. I don't think anyone's ever said it to me directly.

Speaker 2: 25:48

No, I don't think anyone said it to me directly either, but that feeling that you're putting yourself first versus the child or the family, or the idea of procreation from a religious standpoint, like that's the priority. The priority is procreation and the family unit, and it must be this way that I'm choosing to prioritize myself. And it doesn't mean that I don't care about kids or help kids in different ways or help the kids in my family. It is just that I'm not doing that part of it and I think I am better for it in terms of my own personal physical, mental health, that I'm prioritizing me and I'm a better partner to be my husband by doing that and that's what I can and want to do. And it doesn't take away from those people that are doing that and want all that Go do it, be the best you, but that's you and you want that and I want this.

Speaker 2: 26:42

And so why can't those things exist for each person, versus getting into a relationship or choosing something because you felt like you had to, or everybody, all your friends are getting married, so you should get married. All your friends are having kids, so you should have kids, and you don't really want it, but it's because what everybody's doing, so you feel like that's what you should be doing. And then you're not happy and then what does that do to you and to the children? Again, not judging the choices, and how difficult it is and challenging it is to be a parent in this is in this modern world. I cannot even imagine it when it was 30 or 40 years ago for me, like what it is now with the work world, the way that everything is so fast Now.

Speaker 1: 27:23

I can't even imagine what parents have to go through, yeah, and to your point, around changing from 30 years ago. I wonder what the impact social media has been, and I say that because I entered college right when Facebook hit the scene. And all of a sudden, I could see what my friends were doing in other colleges, and then, when we all graduated, I could see what they're doing in other cities.

Speaker 1: 27:42

And then we hit a point where everyone was having kids and it literally felt like this child frenzy a little bit and it was almost like getting a Tamagotchi. I was like, should I be having children? Everyone on my social media feed is having children. I felt like there was this frenzy and I could have been projecting because I just didn't feel that way. But I would be interested how the social media and comparing lives and all of that has had an impact.

Speaker 2: 28:06

I'm sure it has, because you you see it in how people feel left out if they're not doing certain things. Or I think people are to have a better understanding of how social media is used now than when it first started, because what you see on social media is not real life and when it started it it seemed like real life. Oh, she must have this amazing life. She's posting all these photos, her children are so gorgeous and everything's perfect, and we all know that's not true. But when that's what you're seeing in your feed all day long and hearing it from others that this is what others are doing, it looks easy and it should be what you want and you feel different because that's not what you want. But it is a real feeling to feel like you're missing out on something or that there is quote unquote something wrong with you because you don't want the same things that other people do.

Speaker 2: 28:56

But I think what you're reading about and the reason you're raising this topic, is that more and more women, that our moms, are talking about how hard it is, and the pandemic certainly revealed a lot of that. I don't know how people made it through.

Speaker 1: 29:12

I don't know either One of my best friend growing up who has a beautiful child and one on the way, she said. I remember saying to me in the pandemic people should only be allowed to have as many children as they are willing to quarantine with, because I think in her mind it came readily apparent who was ready to deal with the quarantine or not, which was just, I thought, a funny point.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Yeah that has surfaced a lot of information about what it is to be a mom today and, being honest, about how hard it is. And to this day, I do not know how my mom did it. She had four children in the span of six years and you know, doing all the stuff. How did she do it? And she was, yes, she was a stay at home mom, but that man, like she, was working all day long.

Speaker 1: 29:52

I have the same Now that I am an adult and I use air quotes around that word I have a lot of respect for my mother, who was also a stay at home mother and took care of the three of us, and as a child I don't think I gave my mom enough credit for all of that work she did.

Speaker 2: 30:07

So yes, you only grow to appreciate your mom more and more every year. So that wisdom I will give to you also is that as you get older, you understand more about what they went through, what they did and in the stages of your life as you are getting married and then moving on in your life just what they went through to being your parent, you know your parents always say to you we just want kids to be happy, just want them to do what they love and be happy. Well, this is it, mom.

Speaker 1: 30:35

This is it that's such a good answer. I'm going to keep that in mind. Well, thank you Sela.

Speaker 2: 30:40

This was so lovely, I appreciate all of your very eloquent answers.

Speaker 1: 30:44

Thank you again for being my first guest. Hopefully we can, in season two, bring you back.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Oh, I would love to come back. You know, when you talk to me about this, I'm like but I'm so old.

Speaker 2: 30:55

Why do you want to hear from me? But I hope that in all the interviews that you do, the part of it is going to be you get to see different people at different stages of their life and how. Something for me so long ago was a decision that has formed who I am, and I still tell women to just do what is true to you. Even the marriage question, that is a big deal too, because that that institution was not made to help women, and so taking your time and thinking about it and overthinking it, deciding what is best for you, is to be the best human being that you can be.

Speaker 1: 31:31

That means the biggest thing. Well, in my mind, of course, I'd want someone who's your age, because you have the gift of being able to look back in time and be like, yes, this was the right decision. Here's how I've navigated.

Speaker 2: 31:43

My pleasure to share with you and I just feel like it's it's such a personal choice and I'm just glad that women have more choices now, even though sometimes it feels like we don't, and I'm just so excited for you and you soon to be husband to, to just live an incredible life that makes you happy and contributes to the world in the way that makes you happy, and I appreciate it. Yes, very good, all right, thank you, laura.

Speaker 1: 32:09

Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. I appreciate everyone tuning in to the first episode and you can join me. Next week I'll be sitting down with my current co-worker, Annie. Thanks for joining.