2. Annie McNaughton on listening to your own inner voice

Annie McNaughton and I sit down to discuss her journey to being childfree, from initially believing in the ideal of the "husband, child and white picket fence" package to realizing her inner voice was telling her something different. 

We talk about the importance of clear communication and mutual understanding between partners when standing firm in the face of external pressures, and the importance of ensuring both partners are on the same page to sustain this choice.

Finally, we dive into how societal expectations, the fear of missing out (FOMO), and the fear of regret that can often cloud our judgment when making the choice to not have children. We address how society's influence can be so pervasive that it's sometimes difficult to distinguish between what is society's and what is our own voice. 

**Trigger warning** - we discuss some pretty severe delivery complications during this episode, so if this might be triggering to you, please skip over. The time stamp is 21:35 to 21:53. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I would rather deal with that times 10 every single day than to make a decision that I know I didn't fully make myself and instead made it to cater to other people.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Welcome back everyone to another episode of Child Free Me. I am your host, laura Allen, and today's guest is my colleague and friend, annie. We've worked together for two years and she is the second person I approached when I started thinking about this podcast. I timidly approached her during just the regular workday and asked if she'd be willing to come on the show and talk about her choice, and she was a total trooper immediately said yes on the spot, and I'm so glad she did, because she was an absolute delight to speak with.

Speaker 2: 0:50

What I loved about this conversation is that she and I are about the same age. We both live in downtown Chicago, we both have careers, obviously at the same company, and it was really interesting to hear her perspective change from her 20s, when she just assumed she wanted the traditional family unit, to then understanding it really wasn't her own voice saying that and realizing that she had to listen to her own voice and intuition. It's something that really resonated deeply with me, given that we followed a very similar path in life. I do want to give a warning that we discussed some pretty severe delivery complications at one point. I'll put the timestamp in the show notes, so please make sure to reference those if you feel that listening will be triggering. And with that let's jump in. Annie, thank you so much for being here my second guest on this podcast and I'm so grateful to kick things off. Could you share a little bit about your personal journey in being child-free and what factors influenced your choice?

Speaker 1: 1:53

Yeah, absolutely so. First, thank you for having me on here. To be perfectly honest, I think that it was something that was ever changing, that I didn't even fully recognize myself which camp I fell in until relatively recently, and the reason why is because I think that growing up or when I was in college, it was, yeah, you know, mom, kids, white picket fence, the whole kind of the whole shebang, right that people are sold on, even though I never really felt connected to the aspect of being a mom. And I think that I got a little older and I was like, well, it'll happen, it'll all happen, this package deal, right, husband, kids, white picket fence, and went to school and I had a really serious boyfriend at the time. That I think, looking back very foolishly, it's like oh, 22 got to get on that you know, times a tick and I just didn't again feel connected to the idea.

Speaker 1: 2:58

I knew that it was kind of what I was supposed to do it's what everyone's quote unquote supposed to do, as I had been told, but again didn't feel that connection to it. Thankfully that relationship did not work out Right exactly Saving grace in and of itself. But then I think for the longest time I was single. I was single for a great chunk of my 20s and I remember being terrified of that every single day because it was this expiration right or kind of coming expiration as it was talked about, or this time's a ticking element Again. I realized that there's loneliness or you wish you had somebody to share experiences with. But I realized that the actual absence of the kids from that husband, kids picket, fence equation didn't make me very sad. I have two nephews and when they were born I was thrilled. I saw how happy my family was and I love them more than anything. They are the little loves of my life. But I never looked at them as babies or seeing my family with them and said, oh, I wish I had that, I wish that was mine. That made me start to think and I think that there's a cynical side of you, right? That's like, oh well, you're only saying that because you're single and bitter.

Speaker 1: 4:14

Essentially was the inner dialogue almost telling myself that I didn't want things, so that I wouldn't be sad I didn't have them. That's what you thought, Right, the voice was okay, yes, yes, exactly, and just really enjoyed my time with my nephews and, quite frankly, with friends. Kids I do very much enjoy kids. I just didn't want them for myself. Is the realization that I came to? It really all came to a head when I met my now husband, and that wasn't part of a rush or an equation that we had to like, do this in order to get this, and we just very much enjoyed the life we've built together. He also was on the fence, but didn't necessarily want them, or, I should say, could kind of take it either way.

Speaker 1: 5:01

And so I think that for the longest time I told myself that I didn't want kids because I was single and because it's easier to think you don't want something if you don't have it. It's not right there, Precisely. But then once I met my now husband and dated for a few years, got engaged, got married, but that still didn't enter my mind is something that I needed to do and I realized that it wasn't a mind trick, I was playing on myself. It was just genuinely something that I did not actively yearn for or actively want.

Speaker 1: 5:33

And so, as a result of that, we then became more vocal and more, I'll say, kind of conscious of it and brought it into the dialogue like is this something we want? Is this something we're looking at? Then that kind of opens up a whole other door of reasons why we've chosen not to be. But it was just kind of coming together as a unit and saying, like you know, we don't really think that this is for us and life could look this way, and that's kind of like open door A or life could look this way and open door B, and we really, really liked what was behind door B and decided that that was the way to go for us.

Speaker 2: 6:11

Got it Okay. There's so many things I want to talk about, so exploring what this is like in a relationship is very interesting to me as someone who is engaged, about to be married and what that's like, and just hearing other perspectives on couples and how they talk about it going in. So it sounds like he was apathetic either way coming into it. And do you think that you were also apathetic, or do you think you had formed that opinion prior and then you guys agreed afterwards?

Speaker 1: 6:39

I'm being perfectly honest, I think that I was apathetic in air quotes but I kind of already mentally was leaning towards yeah, I don't think I need this, but it did, but it didn't denial Precisely, but at the same time it also is truly something, if I'm being honest, something I would have considered if he genuinely wanted that, and the reason why is again kind of a calculated decision was looking at that and seeing you know what.

Speaker 1: 7:06

You are a great partner, you would be a great dad. If this was truly something that you wanted, it's something that we could explore, but it thankfully was not. He was apathetic coming into the relationship and I think a lot of his factors of why he personally leans toward no are namely the lack of resources and infrastructure for people to raise families just from a socioeconomic right. So, like I said, opens a whole other door of things that came into our decision making. But I also think that we both just very much liked elements of our life and ability to do things financial security. I would initially say that we kind of both came in apathetic me leaning towards no, him leaning towards no and then it just happened to thankfully come together and work as a unit.

Speaker 2: 7:59

Yeah. So to your point about working as a unit. How did you communicate that to what I can only assume are questions from families and friends, especially once you get married, about what's happening next? What was that like? Navigating that together?

Speaker 1: 8:15

To be honest, not as painful as I thought it would be. We each have siblings, both of whom each have children. So our parents already have grandchildren and I think that helped a lot from a pressure standpoint. Not because that box was already checked that sounds horrible to say but obviously they would have liked more grandkids. But I think that it was a little easier. And I would say, very early on, we got the questions that you always hear, right In terms of like who's gonna look after you when you're older? You're gonna be so lonely. Oh, you know, you're in five years, you're gonna really wish that you did this, and then it's gonna be too late. And we heard a lot of that and kind of said thank you for your concerns, we will take them into consideration.

Speaker 1: 9:03

You will be the first to know Precisely In your mind, took them into consideration. I think it made it a little easier because we felt as though you had somebody who had your back when you were just like, okay, yeah, I get it, I'll think about it, thank you. Whereas, particularly me, I'm quite the pushover, so I'm easy to wear down, like you know, kind of an hour with somebody being like you should do this. I'm like should I? But you know, it's kind of somebody who's there right next to you and just more so, taking a pulse, not hey, remember what we decided, it's not that, it's more so. Hey, are we still on the same page? Are we still wanting this?

Speaker 1: 9:39

How do you feel about this? How did you feel when this was said to you? This is how I felt when this was said to me and talking through it, and I think that the communication is really, really important there, not only so that you feel supported, but also to make sure that you do stay on the same page, because, let's face the reality of it, it is very common where that priority or mindset does change for people. Somebody who originally says, hey, you know, I don't think this is the path for me, then maybe starts to consider that path or just has an awakening one day, whatever it may be. One of the things I'm so grateful of is that I have a partner who is very, very open and honest and communicative and is always taking a pulse, and I'm always taking a pulse as well, and so it allows us to be on the same page in that regard.

Speaker 2: 10:32

Is it something that you guys do intentionally, this checking in specifically around children or does it more bubble up when you're getting these pings or these questions from external forces?

Speaker 1: 10:44

I think a little bit of both. One, I think that externally, because there's still a stigma out there of choosing to be child-free and I think that a lot of people view it as a less than lifestyle, which I 100% take issue with. But more of the story and the reason why I say it like that is because I think that mind frame can then lead them to say, even unintentionally, some pretty hurtful things. And when these prompts or prods or requests for you to consider this way of life are made and they're made in a way that is not very tactful or that are hurtful, I think it's common to go to your partner with hurt feelings and kind of just want to talk them through or have them build you up.

Speaker 1: 11:30

I personally have had a lot of those where friends who were very well-intentioned, very well-meaning, had just really hurt my feelings regarding the decision to remain child-free, and so I think in some instances it was just going to him like this was said this really hurt me.

Speaker 1: 11:47

Can we just talk through this? That's one element, and I think another are just things, naturally, that happen by way of, we'll say, life or society, and an example of this could be one of my really good friends is just really struggling right now with the decision of putting her child in preschool. It's essentially because where her birthday falls can either make her the oldest in her class if she waits a year, or the youngest in her class if they put her in now. And so they were debating this and my friend called me in tears after finding out the cost of all of the daycares around her and she has a very good career, they make a very good living for themselves. She was just so blown away by this cost of what it would be to have childcare regularly that they could prescribe to that.

Speaker 1: 12:37

It was essentially kind of forcing them into the decision to put their child in school at a younger age than they would have liked. And so she was talking me through it, so that it's one hang up the phone and say, oh my gosh, can you believe this? I feel so bad. I just got off the phone with X and this is the issue they're facing. And then that kind of naturally comes into the just discussion again about society or the infrastructure and resources or lack thereof in instances like that. And oh, what would it be like if we were in that situation? How would it look? Would one of us have to quit art? And so again just kind of opens a whole new door of communication because you're either doing hypotheticals or you're commiserating, or you're lifting the other up or, in some instances, just kind of being angry and taking the yeah if that person, if they hurt our feelings, type approach. So both conscious and unconscious by way of things happening, around us.

Speaker 2: 13:34

Would you say your husband also gets his feeling hurt or hurtful comments, or is it more so you, the hurt feelings?

Speaker 1: 13:43

I would say is probably far more me. I'm a very sensitive person. It is very easy to hurt my feelings, but I would say that's more me, whereas I think with him the thing that he is more prone to is essentially almost like fear-based attacks, almost kind of viewed as a character flaw from lack of planning is kind of how it's pinned, and I don't know if this is a kind of men versus women or whatever dynamic that may be, but I feel that maybe it's just me being over sensitive or having hurt feelings. But I feel that when people try to appeal to me to consider this, it's usually emotion-based decision-making, whereas at least what I see with him it's more so things like regret this down the line, not have someone to care for, and then the impact that will have on expenses or not having a legacy or the name carried on, and so I feel it's almost like two different types of attacks and so both fielding attacks, albeit different types Got it.

Speaker 2: 14:51

That's interesting because I was actually trying to get to and I didn't ask it. Well was, are you getting all the comments and is he just skating through life without any questions? Because I genuinely believe my partner doesn't get any. I feel like I'm the one who suffers this guilt for not having them and he gets to just skate through. So it's interesting. Your husband gets comments, but it's just of a different nature.

Speaker 1: 15:14

I would say, receives them, but of a different nature, dropped far more easily and not nearly as frequent or incessant. I'll hear one of his buddies be like oh when you guys having a kid, and that's the extent of it, whereas the attacks are far more incessant for the woman. What?

Speaker 2: 15:32

do you think the genesis is behind the attacks, not the attacks, the questions? I'm wondering why people seem to get offended by the choice, because I have to assume they're asking because they are offended or angry in some way.

Speaker 1: 15:45

Yeah, to be honest, I genuinely don't know. For a little bit I thought it was just because you want people who are like minded or who you know. You almost view it as a beacon of do we share the same values? Type assessment of somebody. I also think that there's a little bit of it and this could be this is 100% speculation but I also think that there's an element of not necessarily understanding it and so, because you don't understand it, it's almost deemed as a threat.

Speaker 1: 16:20

You know the kind of the laughing, joking comparison that I'll make to that is do you remember back in like really old school episodes of Sex in the City where they do the oh, married people hate us because we're single and they don't understand us and they think that I wish I did understand it a little more. But at the end of the day and I think that this is a big part of how I feel on this stance overall at the end of the day my decision has nothing to do with anybody else's. If somebody wants kids and to be a mom, I applaud that soul wholeheartedly, and if somebody does not want that, I applaud that wholeheartedly and it's kind of one of those. I don't want to factor you into my decision making, nor should you think about me in regards of your role. Yeah, I think that's well said.

Speaker 2: 17:12

I want to go back to something that you said away at the beginning, but I think it's so critical to highlight, because when you're talking about being in your 20s and feeling this panic, the ticking clock for the white picket fence, the husband and the children all in one package, and you're hearing this voice in your head, what I can only assume is intuition and you are telling that voice that it's because you're bitter and single. Just the fact that society has infiltrated us so much that we're even telling our intuition and we feel like it's coming from us, when really I feel like it's society overall. It was just interesting that you had this intuition and you were talking back to it using society's voice.

Speaker 1: 17:53

Yeah, I think that when you are somebody who is very self critical internally, even if you are somebody who, on the outside, projects as confident, I think that it is an easy place to go to turn negative attention or turn negative self talk inward at yourself, almost as a result of viewing that you are falling short. So if you are perceiving yourself as not being where you thought you would be in life, I think that it's very easily something that you can do to internalize that self critical talk inward, even if you are consciously trying to combat that and say like, well, no, maybe this isn't what I want. It's almost like it just doubles down and becomes even more ugly, this little demon on the shoulder. It's like, no, you're saying that because you're just bitter and single. Like if there was a willing partner in front of you right now, you'd swipe this package up in seconds.

Speaker 2: 18:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:56

And it's like a Would I? And like it becomes even more of a internal debate.

Speaker 2: 19:02

Yeah, I feel like that voice is so pervasive, even now in our late 30s, with partners.

Speaker 1: 19:07

But I also think that at the end of the day, it's kind of what led me to finding the decision that's right for me is that I didn't truly want it. It almost felt like a part I would play. And I remember back when I was first able or first required, I should say to have to do business travel.

Speaker 1: 19:25

Oh my God, I felt like the most important on this planet, you know here's me with my little blackberry, almost like a doll, right when it's like business Barbie going to work. Here's my blackberry, here's my carry on, you know wearing my blazer.

Speaker 2: 19:38

I can see 23.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Exactly Right. But like feeling so fierce I am a career woman Like that's what I was saying to myself, knowing full well that I was not at that time very bought into my career, I wasn't somebody who was overly passionate about it and in fact at the time I viewed it as a paycheck, and so it kind of blew my mind that I was telling myself look at me, career woman, so driven, here's my blackberry. Or, if you're a Romeo and Michelle fan, like, can I get the business woman special type approach that I was taking? And the best way I can liken it is that it almost felt like a part I was playing where it's like a little outfit that I put on and then I take it off and then I'm no longer corporate doll. But it was the same thing.

Speaker 1: 20:23

And I remember like, okay, like let's pretend what it's like to be a mom, we'll kind of put that on, we'll try on that outfit, we'll see if we like it. And I think that realistically I realized that I'm fine putting these outfits on, but I like being able to take these outfits off, and that is one that I knew that once that's on I wouldn't be taking it off. It's not fair to take it off? I would never want to take it off, but the problem is I would. I wouldn't want that, and I think that having that recognition that oh wow, that's an outfit you don't take off, I think was part of what led me to be like this, might not be for you.

Speaker 2: 20:59

Absolutely. It is one of the most permanent decisions I can think of, honestly.

Speaker 1: 21:05

There's obviously others Absolutely, and I used to actually have dreams, even in teenage years teenage years through present day, of having dreams of sounds really dark and morbid, passing away in childbirth, as young as a late teenager. Having that dream, it's just I don't know if that also has measured into my decision making and I'm just not fully conscious of it. Many times have had that, so it's crazy how it visits you even in your sleep.

Speaker 2: 21:34

Yeah, that is interesting. Has there been any history in your family of someone passing away from childbirth?

Speaker 1: 21:40

So my sister-in-law flatlined during delivery, she was revived, everything was fine. And my best friend also flatlined During delivery and so again revived, all is well now. But that, I would say, factored into my decision making very consciously that at the time when I'm young and in my 20s, two important women to me were almost lost in this endeavor. In this day and age, with medical kind of advancements being made every day, and I just could not wrap my head around that, and so that did weigh into. I think when you have that happen in your formative years, you know right when your friends start having kids and two very important women to you almost have a tragic outcome during childbirth, I think that was something that fear of that still to this day a part of my decision making.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Well, I'm glad they're both okay and thriving, thank you. But I can imagine how impactful that was and I don't have the fear of childbirth in the pain. It's the fear of having to raise this child for the rest of its life. So Laura's like oh, you do not want to have to do homework with an eighth grader. You struggled enough and were stressed out with your own homework growing up. Like you are not prepared to go back that route. It's different but I would say similar. So you mentioned many friends who have children. Like how have your friendships been impacted as you each have gone down these different paths?

Speaker 1: 23:05

You know, again, I love my friends and I love my friends kids I'll be the first to sign up for like a park day where we take them and, you know, allow them to play and have fun, and I love that. But I would say, the thing that really changes one there's, kind of the one that's to be expected, right, and that's time. Time that you spend with your friend diminishes because they rightfully so are investing their time first and foremost with their family. And so I would say that time or quality time diminishing is one. But I would be lying to you if I didn't say that having somebody who is a very close friend say a well intentioned, really painful thing can kind of cause you to almost take we'll say take the beating.

Speaker 1: 23:51

But then next time you're kind of a little ready for it or you're wincing a little bit already and you kind of begin to naturally to build a wall there, not necessarily like a friendship ending thing we're not talking about like a blowout angry type response months, but more so just, oh, that hurt my feelings, okay. And then you talk again two days later and oh, that hurt my feelings, okay. And like, oh, that, that hurt my feelings, you know, a week later, and then it kind of begins to be like a okay, you're calling me, maybe I let the phone roll the voicemail this time and I call you back in a couple of days. And so I think it also begins to put a little bit of a reservation or one sided retreat or taking a step back as a result. And so I think I've had friends that fall into both camps with that in terms of just standard normal quality of time being diminished versus being a little more reserved than I typically would in our friendship.

Speaker 2: 24:51

I haven't had an experience yet where there's been any sort of targeted, unintentionally insulting comment. I think where I struggle and this is probably just internal work I need to do is the concept of FOMO filters, in which is I can't even believe I'm saying this, and anyone who knows me knows I get really bad FOMO. It's one of the reasons I go into the office all the time is because I get FOMO about everyone being in the office, even if there's no one there and I'm not there. I've shared most experiences with most of my friends high school. We've all gone to college. I had a fairly significant, intense shared experience of going to MBA and getting my graduate degree with a good part of our friends.

Speaker 2: 25:33

We all have corporate jobs and live in big cities and this isn't something I'm going to share with them and it's not the child that I'm missing or being a mother, but it's not being able to share in that and feeling like left out. Not that anyone really leaves me out I'm sure there's group chats and discussions and SOS calls and like help me and my child's doing this and I'm not a part of it. Just fine, because I won't be able to contribute and it's not even happening now. I'm going to manifest it because I'm worried about it in the future. But I feel like that's something that I have been struggling with as I make this decision, which, again, FOMO is not a reason to have a child. That and the fear of regretting.

Speaker 1: 26:10

I don't regret it now.

Speaker 2: 26:11

But what if I hit 60 and all of a sudden I'm like oh shoot, yeah, I don't think there's an answer to that, but it's definitely something, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:20

And I 100% get that and I 100% feel the same thing, both the FOMO element as well as the fear of what if I made the wrong choice. But I think that at the end of the day, all we can do is wake up and almost kind of like, make that choice every day Right, is this still what I want? And keep going forward, but 1000% feel those same things. One of the things that I'm really trying to do is put the work in on myself to say this fear of regret. Is this actually my own fear?

Speaker 1: 26:56

Or is this, that society has broken through my barrier and kind of gotten in my own head.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Because if I make the decision to have a child, it would be obviously a very personal thing, and I think it's one of those things where I would never want society to dictate my choice for me.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Because if it does, I feel it will undoubtedly wind up with regret.

Speaker 1: 27:22

I don't want to have a child because I've been shamed into it or because of fear, because I am terrified that that would then exhibit itself or come out in how I raise the child or if I raise the child poorly or if I'm not as present because I'm not as invested as I know I should be. And so I absolutely do not want to make that decision for anybody other than myself and my husband. And I think that's why that communication is so important, because we're keeping those tabs on each other and kind of help keeping that at bay. Because I will deal with the stigma, I'll deal with the prying questions or the remarks or the speculation, but I would rather deal with that times 10 every single day than to make a decision that I know I didn't fully make myself and instead made it to cater to other people and knowing from the jump that that was not my decision and I'm not as invested or as excited or as whatever fill in the blank that I should be about it.

Speaker 2: 28:30

Absolutely. It's almost like it's hard to distinguish what is society's voice and what is yours, right, like you've been said in your 20s. It was like, was it your voice talking back to the intuition you felt, or was it society's voice and to your point around checking with your partner? Maybe they can help make sure that what you're hearing is truly yourself and not what society's saying, or what you think you want is really what society wants All very convoluted, wow. Thank you so much, annie. I really appreciated this. It was so fun to talk to you about it.

Speaker 2: 29:01

Thank you for being one of my early guinea pigs in this fun little experiment of being a podcast, and I'm thankful for everything that you shared. Thank you you, too, and that's it for today. Thank you, everyone for tuning in. I do want to just take a moment to express my gratitude to each and every one of you who have been listening. Your support means the world to me and I am so thankful for this community that we're building. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe or please consider leaving a review and rating on your favorite podcast platform. That will help me reach more listeners, give me feedback and help spread the word about the show and what we're doing. Tune in next week for our third episode, and we will actually be interviewing a man. That's right, not a woman. This will be our first male guest on the show. Cody Hetzel, who is the co-founder of Child Free Media, agreed to join me for a conversation, and I am so excited to share his insights with you all. So, thank you, I'll see you next week.