4. Amber Shoffey on not apologizing for your choices

Today I grab a glass of wine and sit down with my friend Amber to delve into the often overlooked disparities in work expectations and pressures that childfree individuals confront. Our conversation traverses Amber’s journey from a young girl obsessed with school to an impressive woman obsessed with her career. 

She candidly opens up about her southern family's expectations of a woman's role and their disbelief that life can actually entail more than just having childfree. We also challenge the idea that having kids is the only way to assure care in old age - and isn't that selfish?

This episode encourages and empowers people to make choices that align with their true selves, rather than succumbing to societal pressures. Listen in, as we champion the cause of child-free individuals and provoke a much-needed conversation around it.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Part of, I think, the Southern family and what you do. You don't talk about problems, you don't talk about stressful things, you brush them all into the rug because everybody is supposed to be perfect all the time. And so I think in part of that my family would see not having kids as an imperfection instead of a choice, and it's best to just be perfect.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Yeah, welcome back to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child-free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I'm your host, laura Allen, and today's guest is my dear friend and fellow child-free woman, amber Shofie. I've, of course, loved all my interviews so far, but this one was especially fun to make because it really just felt like a casual conversation between two friends over wine, which you can probably notice, because we definitely get a little loopy towards the end and we talk about a lot of different things, but a good portion of the conversation is focused on career and especially on how there can sometimes be different expectations at work for people who have children and those who don't. This is a really tricky conversation because I obviously have many, many co-workers with children who work ridiculously hard, and I certainly don't want to minimize that, but I think it's something worth exploring. As someone who is child-free and Amber and I discuss this we sometimes feel like we're expected to do more or lean in more or deprioritize other things in our life so that parents are able to prioritize their children, and I think this is especially relevant during this post-COVERED era, and I totally stole this topic from a conversation with some friends this weekend. So shout out to them. They know who they are. But it's worth highlighting during this post-COVERED era where companies are issuing return to office mandates and parents are being handed special dispensations to work from home over people who don't have children.

Speaker 2: 2:08

I've even done it myself, which is crazy. I did it without even thinking about it. I am in HR and gave one of our sales reps an exception to our office policy because she's a mother and needs to be home to drop her kids off three times a week, and I honestly didn't even think about it, because, of course, I want a mother to have the flexibility to spend time with her children, but on the flip side, that's almost punishing the people who have chosen not to have children or maybe not punishing them, but holding them to a different standard and almost valuing their child-free time less than parental time with children. And I'm child-free myself and I did this without thinking, which is eye-opening and something I really didn't put together. It's definitely a complicated dynamic and I really appreciate Amber sparking that conversation about discrepancies at work, because it was the first time in these interviews that I've heard it verbalized out loud.

Speaker 2: 3:12

So I'd actually love to hear listeners' thoughts on this. If you have a perspective, please email me. I'll put my contact info in the show notes and I'd love to hear from you. I think there are many different perspectives. I certainly seem to be conflicted as a child-free person giving all these special dispensations to parents. Please write in. It would be great to hear from you. I would love to hear different perspectives. So with that, I'll introduce my friend Amber and jump into the interview. Amber, welcome to Child-Free Me. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 3:48

Hi, so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Your hair looks on point. I know no one can see it, but for the record it's on point. So, Amber, you and I have been friends for five years.

Speaker 1: 3:59

About when you started at Root Right.

Speaker 2: 4:00

I met you through a co-worker, love Jared, and you and I have had several conversations about being child-free. I am so thankful that you are willing to come on and be interviewed about it and about your choice. So let's start with giving a quick overview of your journey to being child-free. How did you reach that decision?

Speaker 1: 4:21

Well, I think I just never. I never had that bug from early childhood and through my adult life. That's just never something that I've prioritized. I love kids. I have lots of family members and cousins and tons of kids in the family that I enjoy and love to play with, but it's just not something that I ever really saw fulfilling me.

Speaker 2: 4:40

You get a lot of questions about it.

Speaker 1: 4:43

I get a lot of questions, but mostly from family, mom, one sister in particular. I am 43 now.

Speaker 2: 4:50

But you don't look the day over 25.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Thank you very much. One of my sisters was always playing house and always playing the maternal like the teacher. All of that wasn't me growing up. I was very artistic and creative and funny. My dream job was a Saturday Night Live or something like that. I didn't know that. Yes, I did quite a bit of acting when I was growing up. I was really good in school, not because my parents really enforced school and homework and all of that on me, it was just something that I took pride in and I think from there I was kind of the joker in the family. I have a pretty bunch of a family.

Speaker 1: 5:25

My one full blood I call her sister is 21 months older but just one year old. In school she's the one I'm talking about that always had that maternal instinct. I was internally motivated and driven, so a lot of attention and school matters were really focused on her. And when I was getting ready to start applying for colleges my parents didn't realize how important college was to me. Neither of them finished college.

Speaker 1: 5:47

My full blood sister went for a semester. Grandmother would always say you go to college for your MRS Southern family. So if you can picture that with a Southern accent. So, anyway, when it was very important for me to go to college, they were surprised about that, and the fact that I got into some really good colleges was a second surprise and they were like, huh, maybe it's longer than we give credit for I think that I just mentioned all of that to say college was really important to me and having a career early on rather than getting an MRS Fast forward through college. I met a man that was 10 years older than me when I was 19 years old.

Speaker 2: 6:17

We ended up being married. Didn't you get an MRS pretty soon?

Speaker 1: 6:20

I did. I got married when I was 27. He and I had also decided back then that kids weren't a priority for us then either. Eventually, that marriage didn't last. I was divorced and soon after I met my current boyfriend, jared, who you know very well, and now we've been together since just about eight years. But that was also something we talked about early on, like not being a priority for us. My career I had an internship in college that turned into a job before most of my friends had jobs and it just sort of been a steady focus on my career. I loved my career. I love that I've built it from where I started, and I started in advertising sales and then went into educational technology sales and that's what I've been in for about 15 years now, and so, through promotion, three, three years, it was never been something of a priority for me to have had kids. Now I'm 43, now the window is definitely closing and I'm kind of happy about that. Okay, wait, why are you happy about that?

Speaker 1: 7:13

I guess my entire career has been about not trying to get pregnant tracking your cycles and all of that, which is very much the opposite reason why so many other people have apps and things to track their cycle. Got it?

Speaker 2: 7:23

So I ask? I feel similarly that it's almost like I'm waiting, which is sad because life is worth living and enjoying every second, but I'm almost waiting for the cutoff to have kids. At first I thought 38 was the cutoff. I don't know why I thought that, considering that I'm well educated and have lived in a modern society all my life. But I was like 38. No one will ask me after 38, but now we have the Kardashians having children at 44. And I feel like the timeline keeps getting pushed out and once the decision is removed from me, I'm gonna feel almost like a sense of relief.

Speaker 1: 7:55

I don't know why. Or people will stop asking, like if we are certain age, maybe, but I think at this point people think is there something wrong with her that she couldn't?

Speaker 2: 8:03

I'm like no, no, I mean, there's plenty wrong with me, but I don't think that's one of them. I feel like you and I are similar and we go to school, we get a job, we meet someone, we get married, and I feel like this is really where our paths diverge from the normal standard path and I'm now no longer on the same track as my friends. Do you feel similarly? Was this a divergence from the track you had in mind?

Speaker 1: 8:31

No, I mean it's really always bad for me, really. I mean, I have a lot of friends with kids that I love to get to spend time with as well, but no, I think it's just always been something that I didn't want to prioritize. Not that I'm selfish, it's a decision that I made to prioritize career. But then I don't know, that also sounds kind of bad when you say, no, I decided to prioritize my career. Why does that sound bad? I think that sounds great, I guess. But then even at work, you're kind of expected to do more when you don't have kids, in a way. Or maybe I feel a certain amount of guilt to do more because I don't have those after hours commitment. Maybe that's made me a better employee.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Wait, let's talk about that because I think it's something that's worth exploring. I've actually heard it from a couple different people who don't have children for a variety of reasons, and this pressure to really lean in and almost cover for colleagues or team members who do have kids.

Speaker 1: 9:22

Yeah, definitely do. I also think there's a work ethic that I have that makes me and I feel like even other people without kids I feel like I work harder than them. I do have a certain amount of empathy for people with kids because I know how stressful that can be and how time consuming and it's a lot to coordinate.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Yeah, during the pandemic?

Speaker 1: 9:41

Yes, but I do. I love kids. You know so many people be like oh, you'd be such a great mom, though, but I'm such a great employee as well.

Speaker 2: 9:49

I love that. I want to talk about this work dynamic. You and I are very similar and I feel like there's two sides to how I feel about this. On the one hand, I have this work ethic and in some ways, I am almost jealous of people who have children. Not because they have children, it is not the children that I am jealous of.

Speaker 2: 10:09

It seems easier to set boundaries and to prioritize. Obviously, children will always be prioritized. I know there's a lot of mothers working mothers out there who are like it is not easy. I actually have to prioritize both and they both take up space. I get that Sometimes. I just feel like, because I don't have children, work bleeds into every hour. Yeah, and it's harder to set those boundaries because I'm not going to pick up my kid, I'm potentially going to a hair appointment and it's harder to prioritize the hair appointment.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Yeah, totally, and in fact, even talking about men with kids, they have the benefit of having the woman most of the time that does the kid stuff. I do feel like men have an easier time. You can be a sweet level executive with kids for way less commitment than a woman getting to a C-suite with kids.

Speaker 2: 10:55

Yeah, I agree. Have you ever talked to coworkers about this dynamic of I have to lean in and I have to cover? When I was in consulting the people who are child free on projects had to work extra hours or lean in to cover. Have you ever had conversations with people at work around that?

Speaker 1: 11:11

No, not really. I'm a very busy person and I know that the more you have on your plate, the more you can handle in a way.

Speaker 2: 11:16

So in both your previous marriage and then your current relationship, you've talked about discussing how it's not a priority now. Was there at a certain moment where you put a stake in the ground and it was like, actually, this is never going to be a priority for us?

Speaker 1: 11:29

Not really. I guess the closest thing to that would be like hey, jared, go get a dissectomy. You know, that would be pretty hard.

Speaker 2: 11:35

Did you say that yeah? Oh, okay, we might need. Is Jared around, maybe we can have him come on talk about that conversation.

Speaker 1: 11:42

Oh, he totally wants to do it. When he found out I was doing this with you, he wants to talk to me. Oh, I would. I'm going to interview Zach. Yeah, I would love to know what Zach feels about it. You guys seem like a very traditional couple.

Speaker 2: 11:52

I was actually kind of surprised when you said you weren't prioritizing kids for some reason I don't know, because I'm like such the mother type, I mean, you're so close with your sisters and you know, I'm also curious of what their child vision is going to be, but for me it was my one sister, like always, wanting kids.

Speaker 1: 12:06

My mom has made comments like how do you find these guys that don't want kids?

Speaker 2: 12:09

And.

Speaker 1: 12:10

I'm like I mean on purpose.

Speaker 2: 12:11

You're like I manifest them.

Speaker 1: 12:13

Yeah, maybe that's when I subconsciously, like, made this decision that it was a no for me.

Speaker 2: 12:17

Does your ex husband now have children?

Speaker 1: 12:19

No, but what's also? I mean, I do think like people are like, oh, you'd be a great mom all the time and I'm like, yeah sure, I would actually probably be a better mother than a lot of other people out there, based on the way that I think people being mothered, but not what I want to do.

Speaker 1: 12:30

So, I know maybe it comes from me having a huge family and maybe it comes from a blended family and the biggest reasons. My mom could tell me that she would say things to me like oh, but you just, really, you just you'll never love anything more than a child and you're really missing out and you won't. You don't even know what your life is without children, which is not cool. But then would say, who's going to take care of you when you're older? And I'm like that's not the reason to have kids.

Speaker 1: 12:52

There was some point when I was old enough to travel with my parents and just go up on and play cards and drink beer. It's such a good time with my family that I think there was one moment that I was gone. You know that might not have missed out on having kids, like hang out with as friends, but never once in it crossed my mind that somebody to take care of me. I want to take care of myself. I have plenty of friends and family and things that I can surround myself with, but having my kids like be my tribe of caregivers and I just think that's selfless in a way.

Speaker 2: 13:18

Yeah, it's interesting. I don't get that response. Who's going to take care of you when you're older? But as I've leaned into this childfree world, that's a big one, but it's interesting. Am I expected to take care of my parents and also me and my best friend, who does have children? We've talked about just going to a retirement home together somewhere, and that's going to be our life. We'll be drinking wine and a porch until the end of our days. She's probably going to listen to this and be like, wait, we never agreed to that, but in my mind.

Speaker 2: 13:46

I don't think about children taking care of you, my family's from the South.

Speaker 1: 13:49

You get married, like my grandmother said, to get an MRS and have yet and stay in the household and not really work. I'm sort of a divergent from that and my mother doesn't really understand, because that's just what you did. Because you got married, you had kids, you stayed home, you cooked and all that stuff. She never really worked. She did some catering, so it's just kind of not what they're used to. So I get why she's like why would you not do this? I was looking. She considers it a diss on her that I don't want to have kids.

Speaker 2: 14:14

Why do you think that is?

Speaker 1: 14:15

Because, I don't know, maybe I'm manifesting this as well because she gets so sad and she'll say things like I loved being a mother to you. You know I don't want to like this on my mom, but it's not perfect. None of them are and I hear some of the ways that she grandparents and that I wouldn't do. And then if I ever critique anything about the way anybody's raising kids or I get a little of feedback from her and that feedback tells me I'm insulting her by not having kids in a way. Have you ever talked about it directly?

Speaker 2: 14:42

or is this just you guessing how she feels?

Speaker 1: 14:45

So I'm like when she said, Pat, where do you find these men that don't want kids? And she actually made a comment, well, I blame Jersey not having kids and I was like, wait what? Those just came out of nowhere, because I also was very before to somebody that didn't want kids. This is very much a choice that I've made, entering into the relationship.

Speaker 1: 15:02

This is something that we talk about our kids important to you very early on in a relationship and like get out on the table so that I know what the path and what the expectation is on me. It's not anybody else it's me.

Speaker 2: 15:13

I have this same thought that I'm making my mom sad. She and I have never talked about it directly and I'm pretty sure if I asked her she'd be like no, I want you to be happy, of course, but I do get the sense where she'll be sad if I don't have grandchildren or have children. But I feel like your mom still has to deal with some repercussions as a parent, Like you're constantly a parent dealing with children.

Speaker 1: 15:34

Yeah, there's a lot of things you can f up. Yeah, f up a lot. And then the part of, I think, the Southern family and what you do as far as your career and me going against that also within the mental health aid. That's not something you talk about. You don't talk about problems. You don't talk about restful things.

Speaker 1: 15:49

You brush them all into the rug because everybody just was be perfect all the time you know and so I think, in part of that, my family would see not having kids as an imperfection instead of a choice.

Speaker 2: 15:59

So yeah, and it's best to just be perfect. Yeah, interesting Cause I feel like you're pretty close to being perfect, you know, I mean, you have a successful life, a lovely boyfriend.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Maybe part of it is resentment that I don't have. That we're doing, you know we do what we want.

Speaker 2: 16:14

Oh you resentment against you for your life. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1: 16:18

Or the freedom of being able to do what we want and travel where we want and spend money on experiences instead of kids in school.

Speaker 2: 16:25

You ever feel guilty for that?

Speaker 1: 16:27

Yeah, I'm not even cat-like, but I have a lot of guilt. Like about being child-free or just guilt in general In general Okay by working hard about, should I, you know, should I feel guilty for the time I have or the money I spend, or you know the experiences that I have.

Speaker 2: 16:40

Or do you think that guilt comes from? And I'm asking because I feel the same- way We'll wake up after a wedding and we're all a little dehydrated and Zach and I can sleep in, or we go home to an empty, quiet apartment and can do whatever we want and my friends have to get up and go back to two or three children.

Speaker 1: 16:57

I get very guilty and anxious about that, yeah, I agree, they got to go beyond.

Speaker 2: 17:01

Yeah, and Zach's like well, they made their choice and we're making our choice, but for some reason I have this guilt that I am not also making that choice and get more freedom. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:11

But I mean like I turn around from a trip for fun and have to get on the plane the next morning very early and go work. But I have a hard time giving myself sort of the grace of the credit for how busy I am without kids sometimes, and so I think I just work harder because of that. Maybe that's something I shouldn't do. I should set more boundaries for it. It's kind of anxiety of if I'm not going to be parent. I better sure as hell be an awesome career person, you know.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Yes, it puts a lot of pressure on your career, I agree. Not only does it easily bleed into every corner of your world, but it also very much is your world. This is something I'm working on. Just because I don't have children, it doesn't mean my career has to be everything. So what can I bring into my life to balance out the career aspect? Something else so that I'm not finding my value from my work?

Speaker 1: 17:57

Yeah, no, that's just a good point. I mean, we have a dog, we spend a lot of time making sure that she's getting training and we still work for her. She's two and a half. We want her to live a fulfilling life too, and that means a certain amount of play every day and training and helping her feel like a confident little doggy, and we love her very much Does she still use her buttons.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Yeah, definitely she's getting better at a lot of things. Still, you should have seen her showing off at the party on Saturday. Oh boy Still barks when people walk in the door but just following all of our commands and stuff really well. So I guess, if I say that, just because we're not half-assing our doggy ownership, because it's not a kid, I still want to teach them and fulfill them and, in a way, choose our family. So you bring up family.

Speaker 2: 18:35

I feel like that's also a conversation of can you be a family without children? Absolutely, here's my family, yeah, and it's honestly one of the reasons I wanted to get married.

Speaker 2: 18:46

You might know, for a while I was like I don't need marriage, whatever, like even though Zach and I have been dating forever. But I felt that once I did put the stake in the ground around not having children, I needed to better define my family and it seemed silly to have to use marriage to do that. But I think that was one of the driving forces behind wanting to get married, because Zach is my family and Chicago is my home. I mean, I have my family. I grew up in Boston, that was my previous home. But I feel like all of a sudden, you're this family unit when you have children and even though I don't even have a pet at this point, this is our nucleus, this is our family and this is our home, but I feel like that was one of the pushes to make this official.

Speaker 2: 19:24

Because of that stake I put in the ground around being child free.

Speaker 1: 19:28

I mean, I just I only reason I have a different opinion of marriage is, you know, if it was an important third year to get married to have that title, I would do it. But I don't feel like I need to and they have that journey.

Speaker 2: 19:38

And.

Speaker 1: 19:38

I stayed in that marriage longer than I probably should because we were married. So I kind of think it's romantic in a way that we're not but yet we remain committed to each other every day and call each other family and keep my person. I miss person, but we don't need kids to define that. I have a great amount of appreciation for people that have kids outside of marriage to or even have a friend that's going through it solo with a donor because that's how much she wanted that in her journey, and I have so much respect for them and those that decide to do those sort of alternative path, probably because I'm on one.

Speaker 2: 20:09

Are there any stereotypes about being child-free that you wanted to bunk or that you particularly don't like?

Speaker 1: 20:16

That it's a selfish choice.

Speaker 2: 20:17

Where does that come from. Truly I don't understand. Why do I feel selfish?

Speaker 1: 20:21

Because social norms say that that's a hardship that everybody needs to take on like a rite of passage. I think.

Speaker 2: 20:28

I never thought of it like that. Was it embedded in some show I would watch growing up Every show?

Speaker 1: 20:33

I was a sociology major. The reason I was so drawn to that was just because I found people so interesting in these following social norms and how religion plays into our followings and rules, and I loved doing things that were maybe outside of social norms to see how it affected people. Like there was one book I'm sure every sociology student reads. It has all these experiments in it just stepping into an elevator instead of turning around and facing the numbers, just to face the people and smile and like it freaks people out so much and so I think it's just you still do that.

Speaker 1: 21:02

We're on occasion Is Jared there.

Speaker 2: 21:05

Jared just came in. Yeah, jared, I want him to come make fun of my microphone, you want?

Speaker 1: 21:09

to come make fun of your microphone. Come say hi, she'll edit this. Oh yeah, you and Jared.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Thank you, I agree.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Cool, he can't hear you, let me take-. Sorry that didn't work out so well, but-.

Speaker 2: 21:20

Okay, I don't even know where we were. Oh, another big thing I hear is regrets. You'll regret it one day and in some sense, like I said, I'm wanting to be 45, to have the choices off the table and I don't have to think about it anymore. But then I'm also like oh my god, will I regret it? Sure, Do you ever think about that have? You ever had a moment of doubt or second guessing yourself.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Only in that are they right Would I be even happier. Would, my relationship with my boyfriend be better in any way because of those challenges or like stronger Again. It's just I'm missing that gene. Really, I still feel like I'm a nurturing mother. I take care of people. I'm like I'm a connector. I love your clothes.

Speaker 2: 22:02

You are such a nurturer, and so is Jared, that tree, that you had the little fruit tree in the back. Oh, she finally died, oh God Well, and the bees, the bees, yes, he's very productive. You guys are both nurturers for sure, which I'm not saying means that you should have children, but more so than means act. Who don't? Even have a plant.

Speaker 1: 22:20

Yeah, If I haven't really regretted the decision. If I get older and I fit in like, oh, I need to take care of somebody but adopt a kid, or like go be with my other friends and family kids more, so I think that's when I'm like, oh you know, will I regret not having kids, Then I go no, because I'll be able to do anything. I want to bring that into my life on my own. I guess just I don't know that that sounds a little selfish too.

Speaker 2: 22:45

I don't think it does. It sounds honest. I will say I've found there's a lot of apologizing as I'm interviewing people, or caveating or maybe not caveating about being like I love kids. Nothing against people who have children. This isn't about that. I feel like we do a lot of apologizing and almost I want to say protecting ourselves or it's like we don't want to offend anyone who has children, which is almost everyone.

Speaker 1: 23:10

I mean, it's almost a DEI issue as well. What?

Speaker 2: 23:13

do you mean by that?

Speaker 1: 23:14

Like, you try to approach it in a way where you're not going to offend anyone but, yet it's personal advice.

Speaker 2: 23:18

But yet people aren't worried about offending us if they question our decision.

Speaker 1: 23:22

True, I don't know, because I feel like I'm more of a rebel than trying to be so apologetic about my decisions, but I still am.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I mean, I don't consider you a rebel, but you want to be a rebel, are you saying. Are you view yourself as a rebel? I?

Speaker 1: 23:34

think I view myself as a rebel, to like the norms that people put on you, but I want to be a rebel by choosing not to have kids. I'm just thinking my entire life. I'm never, I was never going to be one of those girls that wore ruffles and had a high pitched voice, or be fake. I'm just really like. I can't stand fake people. I want to be authentic to who I am, and that's owning the fact that I've chosen not to have children, and I do need to stop apologizing for it.

Speaker 2: 24:01

It's hard. It's hard not to yeah. Well, Amber, this has been an amazing conversation between friends over wine with Mod and Jared.

Speaker 2: 24:10

I'm so thankful that we can make this happen. I know it's like start, stop, start, stop, but here we are. We did it. Your hair still looks amazing. Thank you, I appreciate you and that's it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, or please consider leaving a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And remember to tune in next week to my conversation with another coworker, the lovely Amaya Pinka, who thought she was child free by choice but actually changed her mind as she was prepping for our conversation and is still unsure. I encouraged her to do the interview anyways and it was really fun. It was a great conversation. I really appreciated her openness about being on the fence and the different things that she's grappling with. So I can't wait for you to meet her and I'll see you then.