6. Rae Chatterton on sterilization, witchcraft, and meaningful rituals

Happy Halloween everyone! My guest today is Rachel (Rae) Chatterton, a naturalistic Pagan and anti-natalist hailing from a small town in northern Michigan where she and her husband are the only childfree couple that they know of. Rae delves into her decision to opt for permanent birth control, the sterilization process, and the challenges she faced in a misogynistic healthcare system that often resists such choices.

Together we dissect societal assumptions - from being childfree in a rural community to the intriguing parallels between witches and childfree women. We dive deeper into the misconceptions surrounding those who choose to be childfree and those who identify as witches, and how these stereotypes continue to pervade societal thinking and media portrayals. The conversation extends to Rae's belief in naturalistic Paganism, examining how it intertwines with her identity and how she navigates intrusive questions about her personal and religious choices.

Lastly, we pull back the curtain on the concept of anti-natalism, discussing its implications for humanity, from extreme to moderate perspectives.

Warning: please skip the timestamp 5:30 - 5:47 if you're triggered by delivery complications. 

Follow Rae on Instagram at @childfree.raeofsunshine 

This article provides a helpful overview of the controversial Essure sterilization procedure, which was discontinued in 2018 due to "a decline in use as women chose other options". 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Even when I did finally manage to find a doctor to do it, I bit my tongue when he asked me if my husband was coercing me into doing this and wanted to make sure that my husband was aware of what I was doing. But chewing the doctor out and not getting the surgery sounded worse than just biting the bullet and just going through with it, because now I don't have to talk to that doctor ever again and I still got what I wanted. So there was still, even right up to that very last minute, of this misogynistic idea that I still don't really know if I can handle myself.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Happy Halloween everyone and welcome back to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child-free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I am your host, laura Allen, and I hope everyone had an extremely fun weekend dressed up as either Taylor Swift, travis Kelsey or a character from the Barbie movie. Today's special guest is Ray Chatterton, who is part of the child-free community on Instagram that I have recently begun to explore, and also mine, for interview prospects. She very kindly responded to just a cold outreach from me and took a chance on this random person wanting to talk about her choice to be child-free, and I am so glad she did, because we had an absolutely fantastic conversation that was truly so educational for me. What I loved about speaking with Ray is that, while she and I have obviously made the same choice to be child-free, her story is pretty unique to mine. She lives in a very rural town in northern Michigan with very few, if any, child-free people. She identifies as a pagan and she chose to undergo sterilization many years ago as a form of permanent birth control. She was extremely open and honest, as you'll hear, about all of her experiences, which I am so grateful for and I do want to include a trigger warning that we discuss a very traumatic event during the birth of her younger brother. At the start of the interview I'll include the timestamp in the show notes, so make sure to check those so that you can skip over if delivery complications are at all triggering to you.

Speaker 2: 2:23

So before jumping into the episode, since it is Halloween and Ray and I discuss Wiccan practices during the interview, I thought it would be interesting just to pause for a minute and to talk about witches. I have obviously been completely immersed in learning and understanding and discussing all the stereotypes that are oftentimes attributed to child-free women, even in today's modern society, and I really couldn't help but notice that there are some pretty strong parallels with the historical trope of a witch that we have all grown up with in movies and cartoons and TVs and books. So just pause and think for a moment of the image that the word witch conjures up in your mind. No pun intended. It is probably a version of some sort of haggard old woman, completely alone, potentially surrounded by her cats. She's bitter and angry and most likely hates children. She might even try to eat them.

Speaker 2: 3:28

I am obviously not an expert or a witch historian, and all of this should be taken with a grain of salt. But I have to guess that these images that do come up in our minds must have roots in very old narratives and fears of women who did not conform to societal norms. Now think about today's stereotype of a child-free woman that we've slowly been painting across these last few episodes and you have something in my mind that's very similar. You have someone who challenges societal norms. You have someone who is assumed to hate children, who is assumed to be bitter and regretful for her choices and is still oftentimes stigmatized for choosing something that is quote unquote unnatural. Obviously, these are broad generalizations, both about witches and child-free women, but in the spirit of Halloween, I thought it was worth highlighting these parallels, because now that I see them, I can't unsee them.

Speaker 2: 4:32

Thank you for joining my TED Talk and to all my child-free women out there, I see you and I hope you keep casting spells. And with that let's jump in to my conversation with Ray Ray, thank you for joining me on Child-Free Me. It's so exciting to have you here.

Speaker 1: 4:51

And thank you for having me. This is so exciting. This is my first podcast interview.

Speaker 2: 4:56

So either a lot of pressure or just a very low bar for me, which is excellent. So for the listeners just want to give a little bit of overview that you live in rural Northern Michigan and there's no one else in your community who is child-free. Is that right? That is correct. So it's just you and your husband that you know of that are child-free in that community. Can you tell me a little bit about that choice and that path that you took to being child-free?

Speaker 1: 5:21

Well, I guess I should probably rewind it all the way back to the beginning, where it all started. It might be a little graphic, but I'm always really open. My mom decided to have a child 10 years after I was born. I was 10 years old and she wanted to have it the most natural way and unfortunately that caused her to die on the table in front of my eyes. I was taken from the room and for a whole 30 minutes of my life I thought I was motherless and it was a really traumatic experience. Thankfully she wasn't, but it did result in my heavily mentally disabled brother, whom eventually I became primary caregiver for for most of my life.

Speaker 1: 5:55

Just seeing this and experiencing this life with someone with such challenging needs just reinforced in me that I really couldn't do it again. I couldn't run the risk of having another one in my life. But I never actually questioned the decision. There was never that moment in my life where I was like you know, maybe a baby. There is never. Maybe a baby. Every thought of it brought it right back to that horror, and meeting my husband was really a half instance. He was my roommate for a good year, just platonic friendship. But two years later he contacts me again and he's like hey, you want to go on a date and I was like you know what we can handle living with each other. Let's give it a shot, let's go on a date. 10 years later we're still married and he's never questioned my decision either.

Speaker 2: 6:33

Wow, so you've been married for 10 years. We haven't married for 10 years. That's incredible. So was it a discussion that you had with him prior to entering into the marriage? How did it enter the dialogue between the two of you?

Speaker 1: 6:45

That was one of those things I always do is in dating that I was always really forward with. I'm kind of an aggressive personality and I would always open with really aggressive questions because you know, I just don't want to sugarcoat it, Don't waste my time. Where do you see yourself in the future? And if the moment they said kids feel like that's awesome, I'm glad you want kids, I don't have a great day. Of course, you get a lot of negativity about that. But he was like, hey, I'm fine with that, that's cool.

Speaker 1: 7:07

Now I chose the path of sterility. He had a traumatic medical history where he didn't want to go under any anesthesia. Again, I told him that's fine, you don't want any surgeries, I'm cool with that. Besides, we don't know where the future leads. The big R word rape happens. I didn't want to risk ever having the option of having to deal with the pregnancy, so I got the controversial E-sure procedure done, which they discontinued Gosh can't remember probably around 2016. It's spelled E-S-S-U-R-E and I do believe it was manufactured by Bayer Pharmaceuticals and it was taken off the market because the implants were actually coming dislodged in some women.

Speaker 1: 7:42

There were some health issues. So basically what it was is they were little tubes that had little coils in them that were inserted into the pathways to create scar tissue to permanently seal off the ovaries. You can't pass an egg. At the time I didn't want anything removed from my body, I just was like really against it. I don't want to go under like that. Please don't cut me open, Please don't leave huge scars. And at that time when it came out it was completely non-invasive. They put you under, they dilate your cervix, they implant them, you are done. There's no cuts. So I went ahead and I did it. I was successful and I've had it now for 10 years and I really haven't had any issues. The gyno says everything's fine. There has never been a regret. I don't say, oh God, I wish maybe I could've thought about this or that, but I've never really felt like I missed it.

Speaker 2: 8:28

What was it like navigating the healthcare space? As you made that decision, did you run into obstacles? Did people try to convince you otherwise? What were those conversations like?

Speaker 1: 8:38

I started my route to trying to become sterile in 2006. And I didn't finally get sterile until 2013. It took me that long to find a doctor that wouldn't keep giving me the same old things that they've told every single woman out there what about a future man? What about your parents? What did they think? That was my favorite one, 26 years old, and they're still asking me what my parents think. Were you single at the time? I was single. Even when I did finally manage to find a doctor to do it.

Speaker 1: 9:05

I bit my tongue when he asked me if my husband was coercing me into doing this and wanted to make sure that my husband was aware of what I was doing.

Speaker 1: 9:14

But chewing the doctor out and not getting the surgery sounded worse than just biting the bullet, ignoring his comment and just going through with it, because now I don't have to talk to that doctor ever again and I still got what I wanted.

Speaker 1: 9:26

So there was still, even right up to that very last minute, this misogynistic idea that I still don't really know if I can handle myself. It was really nerve-wracking and I don't hear a lot about this being discussed with people who are sterile but that fear of it failing, that fear in the beginning that this procedure would fail, and the side effects of a failed procedure are pretty much certain deaths. I would get an apoptic pregnancy and I would have to rush to get it removed because the scar tissue could cause ruptures and things. So for the first year or so I have a lot of fear and I don't hear a lot of women with other procedures talk about that fear of procedure failing. I find that interesting. Yeah, and I went sewing and funerary, so I hope people will comment on your podcast or come forward and just tell me oh no, you're crazy or no, you're not crazy. I too had that fear when I first was sterile, that maybe it would fail. But now, 10 years down the road with it, the idea of it failing seems so alien.

Speaker 2: 10:18

Why would?

Speaker 1: 10:19

it do that after all this time, and even then he's got pregnancy test commercial. It just feels so alien after a while because that you don't even think about it, it doesn't even cross your mind, and that's very liberating.

Speaker 2: 10:29

At first, when you said fail, I thought you meant you would just get pregnant and obviously that would not be ideal, but I didn't realize that it would be life-threatening.

Speaker 1: 10:37

Yeah, I think that was another reason why that procedure was pulled from the market is the problem was most doctors did tell you that this was a possibility. I was given all the facts, I knew what was going to happen or possibly could happen, going in and I was okay with it. That's fine, I could make it to an ER. I could have it taken care of surgically. It's going to be fine. Of course, now the political issues in our country, it's a little scarier. Like God they don't do that procedure now. But because I've had such an experimental procedure, I don't know if other women have that same fear of sudden impending doom. If you by chance had to deal with that eboptic predix, is that an issue with a lot of other sterilization procedures? I'm not really sure Because nobody talks about it. That's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 11:20

I appreciate you talking about it and being willing to be open. That was really great, thank you.

Speaker 1: 11:25

I got really lucky. I've been happy with it. He's never said he's regretted me getting sterile. I've never regretted being sterile and I think more people should give the option a thought.

Speaker 2: 11:34

I don't want to skip over what you shared earlier. So sorry, that sounds traumatic and it is understandable where this decision came from. Is your mom still in your life and have you ever talked to her about it?

Speaker 1: 11:47

Unfortunately, no, my mom passed in 2016, but she was very well aware of my decision. She was still alive when I got married and got sterilized and she never questioned it. She completely understood, considering we all lived under the same roof and we experienced the same things with my brothers. They never questioned my decision about being child-free by choice. I mean it would be lovely to continue to have this conversation, but you know we can't pick those times.

Speaker 2: 12:12

Yeah, going back to the community that you live in, it seemed like your family never questioned the decision or the choice. What has it been like navigating this decision in the rural community where being child-free is just not at all common? What has that been like?

Speaker 1: 12:27

For the most part because it's rural and there's a lot of space between everybody. As long as they don't really see what you're doing, they don't really have a chance to question it. But there are moments where it does come up, especially like around the shopping season for holidays. There's certain things that you tend to purchase oh, is that for your kids? Off-handed questions usually turn into the shock and horror of finding out a neighbor can be good truth and of course it's created some awkward situations with neighbors because they're like, why are they like this? Like relax, I'm not gonna eat your kids, you know we're not gonna be mean to your kid. There's a lot of questions lately, because it's Halloween, about whether or not we're going to pass out candy.

Speaker 1: 13:02

I live in the middle of nowhere and the idea of somebody coming to my house just seems so alien. Like why would you drive all the way to the middle of nowhere to go to some creepy stranger's house for candy? No, that's weird.

Speaker 2: 13:12

Have you had?

Speaker 1: 13:13

trick or treaters in the past I never have. So it always seems weird to me in our small rural community like where did these kids go trick or treating? Our town is literally like a few stores. Nobody's house is close to each other. That's how things get found out in these small communities and especially like get togethers. I tried to do the library book club little awkward talking to some of the members because of course conversations usually go to great book Tell me about your kids. They just wanna skip over all of it and just move right into that family conversation, because most of the people that are around where I'm at grew up with each other. My husband and I. We both are from different areas and kind of moved in. So we're still on that fringe of keeping to ourselves with a mysterious couple that lives in the woods and nobody knows about us.

Speaker 2: 13:53

What is your answer when people ask about your kids?

Speaker 1: 13:57

I just state right out that no, I don't have any and I just kind of moved on with it. If they say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm like that's fine and I just kind of go with it. It's only when they get pushy that I snap back. I guess it's a personal question, shouldn't be pushed to answer any more questions. No, should be fine.

Speaker 2: 14:13

Yeah, I ask cause, I would say I'm probably 10 years into being firm on knowing I'm child free and I still don't have a great answer yet when people ask. So I've started to ask others how they respond to see if there's anything I can use.

Speaker 1: 14:29

I don't really think there's a magic answer. This is really off topic, but it might fit in here. I held public office in the small community I grew up and I was the village clerk and it was very well known, because I ran for office, that I didn't have any kids and my husband and I just got married. So it was really controversial. But I still won by one vote and I don't know how I managed to do it. There was a lot of dinners and meals where we would go and there'd be a lot of questions, and I would always respond to my constituents with would you rather me worry about getting a baby, or would you rather worry about me fixing the road in front of your house, mrs, whomever I'm talking to, or would you rather me worry about making sure the Christmas tree is up in time for the town festival? And usually they were like no, you're right, you don't need to be pregnant, you need to do what you were elected to do. So that got me off scot free for a while.

Speaker 2: 15:17

Even when you just got married, they were expecting. It was just constant.

Speaker 1: 15:20

It was just like hey, so you guys just got married, is there a bun in the oven? I mean, it was really out there. These are candidate election parties. This is supposed to be very high end. You're in a dress and a suit and then somebody's like is there a bun in the oven? So it's really the most inappropriate location for these questions.

Speaker 1: 15:37

You know what year was that this is about 2014. Okay, okay, I was gonna say Seeing it evolve has been interesting socially. The questions we ask each generation, how they react to it is so wildly different, but when it all culminates down to the same thing, as we just want the ability to choose what we want for ourselves and I have other people question that- so I'm on your Instagram profile and you have a list of, I guess, identifiers.

Speaker 2: 16:04

What would you call this?

Speaker 1: 16:05

I guess, yes, I mean, I kind of took the idea we went through this whole thing on social media where everybody was really into posting their pronouns, and I got to thinking about pronouns like yes, that's great, but other things that you could use to identify yourself as, so that people who want to be friends would know, like kind of, what your interests are. I am a. And then finish the sentence.

Speaker 2: 16:26

Ok, so we'll say list of interests, slash pieces of your identity. So we have, dink, dual income, no kids. Love that unapologetically odd child free, which obviously led me to you. Sarcasm is life. Love that naturalistic, pagan, spicy psychology, sterile, anti-natalist and cat mom and 420. Oh, I feel like a lot of those are commonly known things. I'm going to narrow in on the naturalistic pagan. Ok, can you explain what that means and how that's a part of your identity.

Speaker 1: 16:56

Absolutely I can. Most people think of pagans as worshiping old gods, worshipping like the pantheon of Greece or a mother earth or a goddess type figure. Wiccans usually are Druids, even Norse religions. But then you have there's some of us that atheism was great, it was a great idea, but you just don't feel like that's right for you. You're not ready to give up on the idea of believing in anything. But you look around you. You're a rational person and you see nature and you see the earth and you know that you're from the earth. You're from the sky. As Neil deGrasse Tyson said, they're stardust in all of us. So I guess the fundamentals of naturalistic paganism is to hold divinity in the natural world around you. To honor that in the child free sense is to to give up a portion, to sacrifice my ability to have children, to give back to that divinity that I am doing better for the world by not creating that extra carbon footprint, by not creating more towards this climate crisis that we all know is going on and overpopulation, even though it's not happening in our country specifically tend to forget that there's other countries in the world that exist and they are experiencing overpopulation problems and it is drastically affecting that divine nature.

Speaker 1: 18:06

To me, it always kind of went hand in hand together. I kind of stumbled into it. My mother kind of let me explore whatever I wanted to as far as religion went, and bought me any books that I wanted, and of course the craft came out when we were just at that very impressionable age. She's like sure, honey, buy all the tarot cards you want, buy any witchcraft books you want. This is cool, I don't care. Wow, I never stopped being fascinated.

Speaker 2: 18:28

That's amazing. So did you grow up with the formal religion, or was it choose your own adventure?

Speaker 1: 18:33

My mom was born a Lutheran. I was baptized a Lutheran. She was never really particularly into it. Towards the end of her life she said she was more agnostic. She didn't want to particularly call herself any faith. She happened to marry a Catholic so the families kind of really didn't get along with each other. Because of that. I really wasn't raised any particular way. It was fine To me. I didn't really carry their way. Sundays I get to stay home.

Speaker 2: 18:55

Awesome. Have you found a pagan community where you are, or how do you interact with the pagan community? Most of it's- online.

Speaker 1: 19:03

It's really hard in this area. I had mentioned to you before we started talking that the area I live in when we moved here, a large Amish community had also moved in, so now it is very predominantly Christian in our area. I know there are other pagans in the area, but because we all celebrate in such a very drastic different way, I've chosen to take it in a solitary path with my husband only because more of the Wiccan paganism of witchcraft, really like the rituals of it, is just too much for me. I have a really busy life and I just don't have that time and energy to keep up with it. Nor do I actually really believe in all of it.

Speaker 1: 19:39

So I don't want to feel like a sham Got it and I guess that brings up that topic on my profile about spicy psychology yeah, the realism of the world, and admitting that I'm very atheistic, that I don't believe in any real God, so I look at divination more like a type of psychology. You're reverse psychology yourself. You're using the tarot cards, you're projecting your feelings onto them, you're working through your issues. I know there's a lot of psychologists today that are actually looking into it and how it helps therapeutically, and so I kind of refer to it as that spicy psychology, that it's fun, it's kind of a game, it feels kind of mystic, but really what you're doing is you're reading that information the way you want to see it. It's a horoscope, tarot cards. I don't say it's real, but it can make you feel good and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2: 20:24

I grew up Christian in a fairly religious family. I feel like there's a lot within Christianity of pro-natalyst narratives and expectations. That is certainly something I'm working through and thinking about, even as my fiance and I are planning to get married. In my childhood church, I feel like religion has played a part in this societal narrative that women should have children. Do you feel that the pagan community is more accepting of the child free lifestyle?

Speaker 1: 20:53

I would say it's slightly more accepting only because it's one of those things that's always been on the fringes of society. In the 80s they had the satanic panic. There's been always sort of this stigma against it because people will use it to incite panicking people and in communities. But if you look back to some of the earliest religions where we talk about fertility goddesses we even have paleolithic artwork depicting very rotund women who are obviously probably lactating mothers, and even in the visions of triple goddesses there's always a mother version, this fertility idea. But I always try to push for child free people. That, yes, that's great and all that pregnancy idea.

Speaker 1: 21:32

But fertility doesn't just mean for humans. We want the plants to be fertile, we want our animals to be fertile, your money to be fertile. It doesn't have to be your personal womb. I know there's a lot of people that have asked me how do you get past that fertility issue when it comes to your own personal worship? Because a lot of the holidays in the pagan community revolve around fertility and I try to remind them that it hasn't had nothing to do with human fertility, it's agricultural fertility. So don't worry, we're celebrating Mother Earth's fertility, not our own. So totally find it, embrace it, even though it makes you feel a little weird. But it's fine. You can still do a fertility spell if you want, to Just make sure you don't write pregnancy on the piece of paper. That's all.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Yeah, okay, so one. I definitely remember those fertility goddesses from my art history class. I just had a very vivid memory of seeing a carved stone of a very rotund.

Speaker 1: 22:27

The one you're thinking of is the Venus of Willendorf. She's very. I have a necklace of her. She's my favorite goddess of all time. I just love her Okay. Yes, but it was in my art history book Nice.

Speaker 2: 22:39

I can't believe I didn't even remember that. I feel like it's a very classic piece of art that I studied at one point and I hadn't connected the dots there that fertility is such a big piece of paganism. Is that the right way to say it?

Speaker 1: 22:49

Yeah, I mean even throughout history, as paganism has evolved. Fertility, even within the Greek pantheon, you got to remember Zeus would change forms too and pregnant people. Hades kidnapped his wife. It was always about fertility because Persephone being gone, now the land isn't fertile anymore. So every single one of the pagan religions. There is something there that has a fertility goddess. Egyptians have vast, the Norse religion has spray of. Aphrodite is the love goddess. She's going to help you be fertile. You know, it doesn't really matter which one it is. We're always going to want to pray to something that our crops don't fail and we don't start to doubt.

Speaker 2: 23:23

And you mentioned fertility of money. Can you talk more about that?

Speaker 1: 23:26

Oh, absolutely, Now, don't quote me a lot on this. I know a lot of voodoo practices and things, money spells and I think manifestation and the idea of if you want it, you got to believe you want it and you're more likely to get it. So that whole idea of, yeah, using that fertility spell to gain money absolutely Manifest it. And a lot of modern day neo-paganism has a lot of rituals for that. They call it abundance spells. What is abundance, but another word for fertility?

Speaker 2: 23:54

Yeah, an abundance mindset is definitely something I need to practice more of when it comes to money and energetically attracting it into your life. So I didn't even connect the dots there on abundance and fertility, but I guess it's everywhere. One thing that isn't listed here maybe it just falls under the naturalist pagan, and we were talking earlier about witchcraft. Are they one in the same or do you consider them two separate things?

Speaker 1: 24:17

That is a really controversial topic in the pagan community. Some branches of paganism are very strict in believing that only wickens or certain faiths can call themselves witches or practice what they term as witchcraft, and then, on the other half, everybody can be a witch. It's what it stands for and even historically, the idea of what a witch was. A witch was an herbalist, a healer, a midwife she was all of the things or he. A community needed, kind of like a really primitive spiritual doctor.

Speaker 1: 24:49

There's been so many terms across so many cultures for this person, but which is the more European term for it? So to say that one society holds authority over the term seems kind of silly. As we all know, words evolve meaning over time. So the term witch, of course, is going to mean different things. Throughout time it has morphed from meaning an herbal doctor to a green, grotesque looking gremlin with a black hat, to a more modern punk stance, to even the nature loving, tree hugging hippies. I think it encompasses all of that, but it's not necessarily pagan in any way other than people's belief in it.

Speaker 2: 25:27

So do you identify as a witch or you identify as a pagan Witchcraft?

Speaker 1: 25:32

is more about the ritual of it all, and you can be a pagan and you can be a witch. I would guess I would consider myself both in the instance, as there are rituals that I like to do. I don't say that I'm doing it for a god, but I like to give back to Mother Earth. Planting a tree on Herber Day is very ritualistic for me, you know. That's giving back to the earth. Feeding the wildlife is ritualistic to me, and to me that would be like witchcraft. Or even manifesting things. Sitting in the mirror and saying you've got this to me is like a form of witchcraft.

Speaker 1: 25:59

So yeah, I say like I am a witch, I am an herbalist, I am all of those things, maybe not a midway.

Speaker 2: 26:05

Yeah. So because it is Halloween, I would love to focus on this a little bit. So, historically, women who were perceived as different or unconventional have been accused of witchcraft. That was my understanding. Can you share any insights into that historical narrative, specifically how it relates to women who choose to be child free?

Speaker 1: 26:26

I don't know if the persecution of the supposed witches throughout history really had a whole lot to do with that. I think it wasn't really the childlessness but the fact that these women who were midwives had a lot of control over the lives that they were bringing into the world. And that's where they got this spooky, witchy idea that this woman or man who is birthing this child, who has it in their hands, has the ability to snuff that life out so quickly that it's like magic or they can bring that life into that infant. So it's not really that childlessness, but I can see why someone who was a witch of the time might have possibly decided to be child free, either by choice or by happenstance.

Speaker 1: 27:06

To watch mothers possibly suffer and die in childhood might even have been a reason to be pushed to the fringes of society because you were infertile. I mean it wouldn't have been better than the social score and to move to the woods, be an herbalist and just hide from society and let them call you a witch, then for them to laugh at you and mock you because you are sterile and you can't have children. I know there are accounts of women who weren't considered witches who are beheaded just because they couldn't have children. So, considering that, I'm pretty sure they'll take that witchcraft path and be like sure that's fine until it wasn't fine and she's the reason my baby didn't make it. And oh no, here we go. You're down that path of the witch diva. So, as far as it being directly connected to child free-ness or not, maybe.

Speaker 2: 27:49

I feel like there's also the perception of witches who hate children or eat children. Most of us know the Hansel and Gretel story. They've painted this picture even Disney of the witch who hates children. Is that a narrative? You see, how do you feel about it as someone who identifies as a witch and child free in 2023?

Speaker 1: 28:08

I mean, I'm looking back how it's been perceived through thristry and how the idea of witchcraft started to become negative, evolved over time to continue to be negative through the narrative of mass media and culture and our minds, even Disney, and just to keep pushing it. I think we're really started to take this strange turn is in the 80s we really had this increase of women in the workforce and we also had the introduction of the punk rebellion, which also brought about Satanism and the idea that witches worship Satan. They started dragging this up from the 1800s and the Salem witch trials that yep, witches, they worship Satan. So these Satanists, they must be witches. They brought this all up again. So media kept pushing that idea that there's something evil about it. There's something evil about people that don't believe in the mainstream and even today, in 2023, we still have that punk movement. Now it's much more socially accepted. I think that's really awesome. Even the Church of Satanism is really accepted. It's in the media. It's not a scorned in many circles as it used to be, but it still is.

Speaker 1: 29:07

I can see it myself, that whole idea that just because I identify as a witch means I hate children, and we all know that's not true. I mean, of course I could possibly hate children. That's a personal choice people could make. It's valid, I guess, but I don't. And that misconception about it. Yeah, it can hurt my feelings, but to me I kind of find it humorous that an adult can see the idea of a witch, which is kind of comical in itself, and say you're evil because of it. To me that's a very immature mindset and for adults to humor it is just laughable.

Speaker 2: 29:37

Yeah, I do think there is a perception that if you dislike children, you are evil. So not only is there a perception that if you're child free you hate children, but there's a perception that if you dislike children, you are evil. Honestly, almost all the women I've interviewed so far have been quick to be like I don't hate children, and I wonder if somehow that plays into this narrative that we don't want to be seen as evil because those two are connected.

Speaker 1: 30:01

Well, let's just look at the concept of what we think evil is. Morals are very subjective. Every culture's morals are slightly askewed and different Just because of our upbringing, our cultural histories, we pass down, our religions. Everything is just so skewed. So to say that someone is evil, you have to understand what that person perceives as evil. So to say I hate kids, well, what does the word hate mean to you? I hate broccoli or I hate Brussels sprouts, but it doesn't make me an evil person because I dislike something vehemently. Just to say I hate kids, well, there's a lot that you could possibly vehemently dislike about children. I respect that. But there's also, as we say about bad words, a time and a place to say these things, and it can come across crass and impersonal if said in the wrong situations. It's fine to hate kids, just don't go around telling everybody.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Yeah, we're hurting children.

Speaker 1: 30:52

They'll call up every mom and be like you know what I hate your kid. I'm sorry. Bye and just hang on. Don't do that. That's not cool Socially unacceptable.

Speaker 2: 30:59

I mentioned part of the reason I started this podcast is because there weren't many in my circle who have put a stake in the ground around being child-free, which is great and everyone has been so supportive of this podcast. They listen to it even though they're technically not the target audience, and I'm so grateful for that. But I was having dinner with one of them the other night and she was like I just love how this podcast is demonstrating that child-free people don't dislike kids and I was like there are some people who don't.

Speaker 2: 31:26

And I will have them on this podcast eventually. So there's a whole child-free world that I am just now learning about. That has many different pockets, but speaking of the stereotype of hating children, can you talk about your definition of anti-natalism and how it plays into your world?

Speaker 1: 31:43

As a naturalistic pagan and holding so much reverence for the natural world around me, that is how I really fell into the anti-natalism perspective Through conversations in the community. It really got me thinking about how collectively, as an overpopulated species that we are, that clearly the only best way globally we could give back to the planet that is keeping us alive is to rein it in a little. Just stop for a minute, make a hobby, do something else for a little while. Go adopt one. There's so many, you don't have to just keep doing it. That's really where it came to me, and people always think it's evil. Oh, you don't want anybody to breed, you just want us to go extinct.

Speaker 1: 32:22

And I keep thinking to myself would that really be so bad for this planet? Honestly, let's say we all just packed up our stuff on a big old ship and we moved to Mars and we left Earth to herself to just recover. Imagine how beautiful and lush this landscape would be if we didn't touch it. So would it really be that bad if this species went extinct? Yeah, it would be bad for us, but we're all going to pass on eventually. To worry so much about people who are not here seems like a humongous waste of your brain energy. They haven't been born yet. They don't know what they're missing and they don't care. I think it was George Carlin that said I don't fear death because for that whole entire time before I was born, I was blissfully unaware. But that's the philosophical thought that some people it scares, and I get it. I get that. It's terrifying to think about.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Can you define anti-natalism?

Speaker 1: 33:09

Anti-natalism is the idea that the only way humanity can be good for this world is to stop breeding altogether. We need to give it back to the Earth. There's different levels of that anti-natalism. There's the very extreme. No, every single human being on the planet needs to stop breeding, right this second, and just lay down and just let the Earth consume you. And then there's that, very close to the fence side of only the best should breed Smart people, people who really put thought into it.

Speaker 2: 33:36

I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 33:37

And it's very extreme. There's extreme back and forth pendulum to it, but right in that center of it is that mutual. I get it. I get that it's human nature to keep procreating. It's in our genetics. We've been trying to do this since we came to this cognitive ability. But do we have to? Wouldn't it be better if we didn't?

Speaker 2: 33:54

I learned something new every day about anti-natalism. I did not realize that there was a portion of it that was. Only the best can breed.

Speaker 1: 34:01

I'd say that's more of the extremist there's the very extremist people. So I know there might be people that are going to come and attack me Like I'm not like that. I know you're probably not like that, but trust me, there are people out there. I have met them and it's a little disconcerting, but you're like I'm glad you're you.

Speaker 2: 34:16

Yeah, I think if there's one thing we know, it's there's always going to be extremes of any identity, Correct?

Speaker 1: 34:22

Labeling it all evil because of one individual is just silly.

Speaker 2: 34:27

Have you heard of the podcast Dinky hosted by two friends who are both child free? They do a great episode on anti-natalism and they make a good point that the word anti makes it feel pretty extreme and does not necessarily mean if you're an anti-natalist you'd hate children.

Speaker 1: 34:44

So that's the same thing, though with the term child free or even child less. The term less just makes you feel like you're less of a person. Child free I can understand how that can come off really off-footing to a lot of people. You're free from children, so I can get it. How we can misconstrue how we feel about a word to turn it into that negativity that doesn't even exist. My friend.

Speaker 2: 35:03

she referred to me as child free the other day and her as child burdened. It was great.

Speaker 1: 35:07

I feel like I referenced her a lot, that's just awesome, though, because we do hear a lot from the mothering community of the little blessings or the blessed mothers, and it's just really refreshing to hear of the burdened mother, because so many of them don't want to admit that sometimes parenthood can be a burden and that's totally fine. I wouldn't expect to be roses 100% of the time.

Speaker 2: 35:27

I will say I was speaking with a co-worker who has two children and I do think, at least for our generation, and maybe that is the difference between being child free in the city and child free in the world. But my friends are very open about how tough pregnancy can be and actual childbirth and then motherhood is really difficult. I feel like there has been more of a drawback of the curtain. If you will, my co-worker was like can I come on and just talk about how hard being a mom is? And I was like not the target here, but I get it. It is difficult and I think her point was make sure that you are 100% sure before you step into this, because it is worth critically thinking about. Is that something that you've experienced or do you still feel like a lot of people try to only show the good parts?

Speaker 1: 36:13

Being in that rural community, especially considering how very religious a lot of people still are in this area. There is a lot of cloaking and smoking, shadows and mirrors to cover up and glorify pregnancy. I wouldn't say we go outright to the Instagram birth announcements of what the gender is. It's nothing that extreme in our communities there might be, but I don't hear about them. But there still is that old-fashioned country. Everybody's going to show up in the community to throw the baby shower, everybody's going to be involved. That village raises the child, kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 36:49

And when you kind of just sit on the fringes and you don't directly participate, they push you aside. They don't want you in that circle and you are tainting the bubble. Go be outside the bubble. So I guess there would be a lot less understanding. They accept it but they don't want to understand it. They just want to shut it down. I think that's why I just became so vocal in my area, because it started to get really frustrating that nobody even wanted to entertain the idea or the discussion and it kind of hurt.

Speaker 1: 37:14

I had a co-worker who is later on in years, close to 70, who was childless by circumstance. She wasn't able to have children. She was very accepting of her lifestyle, very accepting that I was sterile. What really got me was she was very, very devout Catholic and that really skewed her perspective of herself and her self-love and her perspective of everybody else around her. She would talk so much less about herself compared to other people in her life who had children, like she had. This part of her that wasn't quite good enough and it just really made me sad for her. And to see that and realize that there's so many people in my community that are like that that feel if they didn't by circumstance have a kid, they always have that forlorn loss, sad look, because the community we live in is just so unaccepting of that difference. That's your milestone. If you don't hit that milestone by your age 30, what could are you? But you're like what do you mean? What good am I?

Speaker 2: 38:06

Yeah, so it sounds like, and I should preface by saying you asked me about being child-free in a city and how that is different. At first I was like everyone I know wants to have kids, so it's not that different. But I think what you're saying is one of the key differences is there's overt value assigned to motherhood, whereas it's less overt here, in more nuance, the messaging.

Speaker 1: 38:27

I think it really is.

Speaker 2: 38:28

Okay, to wrap up, I want to highlight whatever social media platforms you're on, in case listeners want to check you out.

Speaker 1: 38:35

All your listeners are going to laugh because I am so old school that pretty much I'm just with Instagram. If you want to connect with me, I have Instagram open all day Childfreerayofsunshine. I try to use that in sort of a sarcastic sense. So don't be coming to my page expecting for sweet nothings. You're not going to find it.

Speaker 2: 38:51

I appreciate the conversation. This was so educational and thank you so much. Hopefully this is not the last podcast you're on, because you speak so beautifully about all the different pieces of your identity and I appreciate it. Thank you very much, and happy Halloween, since this is our Halloween episode, yes, you too, and go be spooky. And that's it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, as always, don't forget to subscribe or please consider leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts. Special shout out to my friend, courtney, who has shared her birthday with the Halloween holiday for her entire life. So happy birthday, courtney, happy Halloween everyone, and I will see you next week.