8. Lisbeth Hart on the myth of the biological clock

Ever wondered what life looks like when you ditch the rulebook? Meet Lisbeth, childfree influencer and advocate for doing life your way. Lisbeth Hart joins me this week to discuss the joys of being childfree, solo and thriving. 

Lisbeth's story is a total power move. We dig into the various stigmas she's had to face, Instagram's role in normalizing childfree life, and the surprising dearth of single childfree people . Plus, Lisbeth debunks the myth of the so-called 'biological clock' and that being childfree automatically means that you're rich and can travel the world. Cheers to doing life on your own terms!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I think sometimes being child-free kind of get framed in a sad there's definitely pity. Yeah, you're missing out on something like the void something that you don't have in your life. But for me, being child-free has really unlocked a lot of doors and there's so many more possibilities and I can just move about the world differently.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Welcome back to another episode of Child-Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child-free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I am your host, laura Allen, and today's guest is Elizabeth Hart, also known as Lizbeth, who I met on Instagram, where she is a child-free influencer and advocate. She was kind enough to respond to a random message from me and took a chance on A Total Stranger, which I know is becoming a theme on this podcast, and we had so much fun. I loved listening back to this conversation and you'll definitely get to hear how much fun we had together.

Speaker 2: 1:05

One thing that stands out to me as I re-listened is just how quietly confident and happy Lizbeth is around where she is in life, even though she's faced with many things that society would deem as challenging, or less than and I'm using that in quotation marks she's currently single, she knows she doesn't want to have children, obviously, and she also lives with a chronic condition that she has had since she was born and she recently came out as queer Again. These are all things that obviously challenge the standard life plan and go against what society wants us to think will bring happiness, but as you listen, you can really just tell again. These are all things that challenge the standard life plan and obviously go against what society tells us we need in order to have happiness, and Lizbeth is just a great example of how you can thrive and be happy outside of those expectations, and her Instagram account is a really great lens into what that looks like. One of my favorite moments of the conversation, and potentially of the entire podcast so far, is when we discuss the difference between dating men and dating women. As someone who is child-free on the apps, and her answer truly made me laugh so hard.

Speaker 2: 2:35

I don't think the recording does it justice because I'm kind of just quietly gasping the whole time, but it was amazing. I hope you stick around and listen. There's a little plug to get to the end of the episode and I am, as always, so grateful for Lizbeth again for taking a chance just on someone random. I'm glad I've made another friend or at least acquaintance in the child-free space and I'm excited for you to hear her story because it's a really special one. Also, just a warning that my Wi-Fi was terrible during this interview and there are some moments where you hear my voice go in and out, but hopefully you can still understand what I'm saying and power through. So I appreciate your patience and with that, let's jump in. Lizbeth, thank you for being here. Welcome to the Child-Free Me podcast.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Thanks, I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 2: 3:30

So I'll start us off with the question I typically start with, which is what has been your journey to choosing to be child-free?

Speaker 1: 3:39

So I think I always knew I was going to be child-free, maybe past the age of five. I definitely knew by 15 and it's partially just because I just never had the desire. It's not that I didn't want kids like ugh kids, it was more just that I never felt the wanting come. I just never wanted it. And that seemed like a really important element to having kids.

Speaker 1: 4:01

And also one of my choice is that I was born a preemie and I was on a ventilator which scarred my lungs, which gave me half lung capacity, and I also have bilateral hearing loss, so I wear two hearing aids and those two things just really affected my life and that I feel like I really got the opportunity to kind of see the world a little bit differently, in that I think a lot of women end up learning to serve others and think of others first and put their needs last. But for me, I was in a hospital in and out for about the first 11 years of my life, so that really taught me to put my needs first and my health first. And so I'm just the kid in the hospital trying to breathe. I'm not really thinking about what my wedding is going to look like, what kids I'm going to have. I'm just trying to kind of get through the day. It was very much one day at a time.

Speaker 2: 4:48

Those just different priorities.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Yeah, I really kind of appreciate that because it kind of taught me to be selfish. Some people have a weird reaction to the word selfish.

Speaker 2: 4:56

That word bubbles up almost every interview. I can't think of an interview where it doesn't.

Speaker 1: 5:00

I don't think it's a bad word. Exactly, I think we have a negative connotation to it. It taught me to put my needs first, especially when it came to my health, so that really helped me stay true to my core values and that was really helpful for making my child free decision, because there's a lot out there kind of telling you what to do, and I would be able to really listen to myself in that regard.

Speaker 2: 5:18

Yeah, Another way I've heard someone rephrase the concept of being selfish is just prioritizing yourself. I think we're taught to mean it's selfish when we're putting ourselves first.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Yes, prioritizing myself yes.

Speaker 2: 5:31

So I reached out to you because you've built quite a significant following on Instagram, specifically as a child free advocate. I would say yes, so you've known for many, many years that you wanted to be child free. What led you to building that presence on social media?

Speaker 1: 5:47

Yeah, it's sort of my origin story. So I've been single for most of my life. I enjoyed being single. I've had a few relationships, but not many. And I had a serious relationship when I was about to turn 30. And then I realized it wasn't working for me and so I ended up three months before I turned 30.

Speaker 1: 6:05

And I realized, kind of in that moment, society would tell me that I'm supposed to be devastated and cutting my own bangs and having a meltdown Like I'm single and I don't have kids and I'm turning 30 in three months. But I was really, really happy. I kind of took that moment and I was like I need to find other people like me that are women in their 30s and beyond. What are we doing? What does life look like for women who are 30, single and child free? I don't know that side of things. So that's when I started looking for groups online and I found Facebook groups and different kinds of groups on different social media platforms and then after that I kind of realized that would be a fun hobby for me to have to inspire other people who are single and child free and just who would want someone to kind of walk alongside life, not even exactly being an inspiration, just being like I'm doing this too and it's okay. Being you're feeling is valid and would just humans. This is a fine alternate path to take.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Yeah, solidarity, and I started this. To be honest, it's very similar. I looked around one day and sort of like, I don't think I have anyone in my life who's put the stake in the ground, so I need to go find them. So I do what most people do, which is start a podcast.

Speaker 1: 7:14

And here we are.

Speaker 2: 7:15

We found each other, which is great. I feel like there's stigma around being single in your 30s. There's also stigma around being child-free.

Speaker 1: 7:24

Do you?

Speaker 2: 7:25

feel one stigma is different than the other. Do they feed off of each other? What is that dynamic feeling like living, I think, within those two stigmatized roles?

Speaker 1: 7:34

Yeah, sometimes I try to think like what's worse in society's view, like which is worse being a single woman or being a child-free woman and sometimes I think, they eat it and sometimes I think I almost think it's worse not having kids. But in society Maybe that's just me, maybe everyone had a different opinion Kind of feel like kids are like in this constant upward trajectory. Kids are like the final I want to say final destination of morbid. They're like the final summit that you have to hit.

Speaker 2: 8:03

And then you don't really know where to go beyond that.

Speaker 1: 8:05

Right. I'm really happy that I got off the relationship escalator and just society had a normative escalator. I'm in that regard because I don't feel that stigma so much on myself and I've never gotten it from my friends and family, which I'm very lucky Somebody. Then I grew up in a really flipping bubble, so that's been really nice.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Yeah, I was going to ask what, if any, questions you get from your family, or pressure, or what those conversations look like. And so you're saying you don't get pressure around being child-free, do you get any about being single? They're just letting you live your life, which is so nice.

Speaker 1: 8:39

Yeah, they're really just letting me live my life.

Speaker 1: 8:41

It sounds kind of weird because I feel like that's not the case for most people. I was a last born and both of my siblings are married and have kids, so that kind of took the pressure off me, kind of like, well, the third one's doing fine, so it's like we already got the bases covered, so that's been nice. Another aspect to this single and child-free conversation for me is I recently realized that I am queer and that has really taken me off of that whole stigma conversation, I feel like, because there's no timeline. Actually, that's one of my favorite things about being child-free is that there's no timeline and it's kind of the same being queer. We just kind of have a totally different timeline because we're coming into ourselves at different ages. Like I came out at 32, almost 33. It's just very relaxing, I feel like, and being child-free and queer, it's just there's no expectations, I'm just here, I'm just the person and it kind of removes all the constructs, the gender of it all, and the stigma and the society's rules.

Speaker 2: 9:41

Interesting. So obviously that's a big step and it's really brave to come out. And then you felt a lot of the pressure just be relieved once you're on this different path.

Speaker 1: 9:50

No, I kind of never felt the pressure exactly I don't know. I just never really got questioned by my family. My mom has always been really accepting, even though it's really cool that she always wanted kids. I was her life's passion. She just wanted to be a mom more than anything. She loves her grandkids. And then she's also been wildly accepting of me and my choice, which is really wonderful. I just love that idea of women supporting women in that way, and I've heard that the best moms who are the most supportive of child free women, because they understand how hard it is and what a sacrifice it is, and they are just like yes, if you don't want to be a mom, go with it, because they know how hard it is and it really is a huge commitment. It's the ultimate commitment.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, and I feel like I'm obviously not a mom, but I would assume your ultimate goal is just to have a happy child in whatever path and choice they choose to make. So your family and friends have been really accepting. What has it been like as a public figure in the child free space with this following have you found the support that you were looking for? Has there been trolls? I'm just interested to see how you've been accepted.

Speaker 1: 10:59

It's been good. I've kind of been tiptoeing into more child free content sort of for that reason, because I know that it can get negative and also I just kind of have a specific way of approaching child free content because I like kids and I love my nieces and nephews and I'm so supportive of my siblings who are parents and have kids, so I never want it to be negative and it's also just not my point of view to be negative about kids and I also don't want to make my child free content to make me think about the negatives of having kids, because it's worth it. Also, the point of being child free, other than not to think about kids that much, I try to focus on kind of the here and now of child free life and the benefits and what our life is like. Does that make any sense? Maybe I'm going to explain this very well.

Speaker 2: 11:45

No, I think it makes sense. What popped into my mind is I took a marketing class and they talk about how the number one rule of marketing is never talk about the competitor and I'm not saying that they're the competitor, but why would you talk about this other choice and lifestyle when you're here to celebrate your own choice and lifestyle, exactly, and then not to make this about a business class in marketing? But that was the thing that popped into my mind.

Speaker 1: 12:10

Because there are child free people who their job is to work with kids. My mom is a children's librarian. Ooh, she said that there were so many children's librarians who were child free, who didn't have kids, and I think the same goes for teachers sometimes. So there are people who don't have kids and don't want kids, who work with kids every day, or that their nannies or babysitters, that they love their nieces and nephews and they love being in it. So you know, I like to kind of reinforce you can like kids, you can love kids, you can work with kids. Kids are people too, just like everybody. We just choose not to be parents, we choose not to raise these kids.

Speaker 2: 12:42

I think almost everyone I've interviewed so far has been the same way. First and foremost, not child free at all. They have children in their lives and very quick to address the myth that child free equals not liking kids. Have you ever been criticized by someone who's child-free for not being child-free enough, or critical enough of people who choose to have children?

Speaker 1: 13:07

No, that's never happened?

Speaker 2: 13:08

I asked because I just interviewed the man who started child-free media, Cody Hetzel, and he talked about how when you get immersed in the child-free community, there's big divisions because there seems to be a spectrum of how child-free you should be and there apparently are some groups early You're not child-free enough. So I was just wondering, as someone who is just obviously more public in the child-free space, if you'd ever encountered that.

Speaker 1: 13:36

No, I didn't know. That was a thing I do know. When I first was coming into, just following child-free groups, there was so much anger from child-free groups this is the pre-pandemic and it was just a lot of ritual and I was like I don't want to be associated with these people, why they don't even have kids. What is the problem? I have noticed it seems to be calming down, I don't know. It seems like it's becoming a much more happy, accepting space and just a kinder place.

Speaker 2: 14:05

That's interesting because I'm not new to being child-free, but I'm new to basically becoming aware that there are other people out there that I could talk to about this. I wonder what that shift came from or what caused that shift from being aggressively child-free to more calm and accepting.

Speaker 1: 14:20

I don't know if it's actually gotten better, if I've just kind of found spaces that are more accepting. I think it's better. On Instagram I'm trying to think. I can't remember where I found the angry groups, maybe it was Facebook.

Speaker 2: 14:31

Reddit yeah probably Reddit.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Instagram seems like a better place and TikTok. I don't know. Maybe it is that there's more of us now that are child-free or fence sitters and so or maybe you found the right algorithm or the right algorithm found you. Yeah, thank goodness for algorithms.

Speaker 2: 14:48

Honestly, what is your favorite way that you engage with the child-free community?

Speaker 1: 14:53

Well, I have my Instagram account and seeing what everyone's doing with their life, especially like enjoy the mundane things, the little things. Reading a book, something simple, like what movies are watching, how we're decorating for the holiday, what we're working towards pets, just things like that. I think there's like an overarching narrative about child-free people and child-free life that you have to be ambitious, you have to be filling your time with something great, you have to be leaving behind some other kind of legacy, you have to be rich, you should be traveling all the time, things like that. But really, I mean with people like just living our lives. There's nothing to make up for, there's no void, especially if you're single. You have one income.

Speaker 1: 15:34

I kind of like showing the side of child-free life, that just which is humans living our lives. We don't have to overcompensate or we don't have to feel the pressure to do more just because we're child-free. We can just be living our lives. We can travel when we have time or when we want to, and we can relax and just enjoy the quiet, enjoy the time to think.

Speaker 1: 15:54

That's all very important too to child-free life, and I don't think I'm talking about enough because it's not flashy, but it's one of the big reasons why I'm child-free. I just can't be on the go all the time, any time to relax and come back to myself and decompress. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:08

I was thinking about this the other day because I'm speaking with a researcher who's doing research on individuals who have a child-free presence in social media, and I also took a workshop the other day on being child-free and the woman who was hosting it. There's really good point around. We grow up seeing the picture of a family, typically a heteronormative family two parents, two plus kids and we see that image over and over and over again in every show, in every movie, every book, and having a view into just normal child-free lives I think is really powerful, especially in aggregate and as you start seeing more and more of it. That's not something people who even in one generation ago, women who chose to be child-free I don't think they had that access into people's lives Like they just had the normal sitcom families.

Speaker 2: 17:08

So it's an interesting dynamic because I've been thinking about do you think the rise of social media has made it worse for child free people? I talk about a lot how all my friends in my 20s started having kids and almost felt like this child fever. People were just having kids. They saw other people doing it and I felt like I was missing something, like everyone was running towards the Tamagotchi that I just wasn't interested in. I'm now maybe seeing the other side, which is, if you curate your content correctly, you actually have a view into these people's lives, of just being child free and normalizing it.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Yeah, actually, this is around the time I was about early 30s when I noticed that, I think because I was that age, my Instagram feed, my explore page, started becoming weddings and babies and, you know, advertising for products for weddings and babies. And I thought initially, well, I guess this is just what I'm going to see now as a woman in my 30s, because this is, you know society, and I thought I just had to just make peace with it. But then I realized, wait a minute, no, I don't, I can train the algorithm. And so I just started clicking, not interested on everything that I didn't want to see, which was weddings and babies and everything that went along with that. I mean, there's pros and cons to the algorithm, but that's one of the perks that you can kind of control what you see and you don't have to live in this head of an automated bubble. If you don't want to, you can just curate it for yourself on Instagram and TikTok. You can. The algorithm will figure out what you want to see based on what you kind of interact with.

Speaker 1: 18:31

And so, yeah, I stopped seeing pictures of weddings and babies on Instagram. I started seeing like grombre hair, where women are growing out their hair and it's gray and it's gorgeous and I'm seeing like women who are traveling and single people and child free people, and that made me feel a lot more like I was on the right track. I was finding my community. I think we're going to see pictures of people and friends and family posting their weddings and their kids. You know all the time, that's just a society we live in. That's what gets the most praise and the most likes and clicks.

Speaker 1: 19:03

But I really think part of the reason I started my Instagram account was to find my community. I think that's a really important aspect of being child free and single is finding your people, because if you're surrounded by friends who are all on the track to get married and have babies and do that, you know the head of normative life. Yeah, you're going to feel like what am I doing here? And like you're kind of in a waiting room waiting for your life to start. But if you find people who are just on an alternative path, doing their own thing, you're going to feel like, oh, I'm good, well, do it on our own thing. So I think it really is important who you surround yourself with in real life, with the algorithm social media.

Speaker 2: 19:40

And you talk about struggling to find deeper friendships as a single adult. Do you feel that social media has helped you, and or do you need tips for people looking to do that as well?

Speaker 1: 19:50

Yeah, social media has helped me feel much more connected, especially being in a pandemic. It's really helped me feel less alone for many, many reasons. It's helped me find online friends and connect to people in real life. There are child free accounts that have many thousands of the followers and they'll do monthly posts to help people find child free friends and you put your location and I've met up with people like that in real life, so that's been really, really helpful.

Speaker 2: 20:16

Oh wow, which accounts do that?

Speaker 1: 20:17

Tiffany, j Marie, and they recently changed their Instagram account. It was the Uprising Spark and now I think it's child free firecrackers, so there's a few that do that. And then joining Facebook groups, local groups and finding people that way, and I think what's helpful for finding deeper friendships and finding knowledge is just kind of talk on a more regular basis through texting, just about like little things, so that you're kind of just in contact, so it doesn't just become like updating each other every few months on life events or, you know, getting together when there's something to do. Just keep the connection open, even if it's just little things. Sometimes the little things are more intimate than the big things and better at deepening those relationships.

Speaker 1: 20:58

And what's really been cool is that in realizing I'm queer, I've been able to discover more about myself. And so now in my 30s, since I don't have that timeline of getting married and having kids and I'm just doing my own thing, I can focus on finding specific friendships and groups and community, the people that are right for me, that really make me feel seen, and I can start to build that community around myself and find a chosen family and engage with groups. That's a door that's been unlocked for me now because I have the time, the freedom of being child free. So I think sometimes being child free kind of get framed in a sad it's definitely pity.

Speaker 1: 21:39

Yeah, you're missing out on something like the void something that you don't have in your life. But for me, being child free has really unlocked a lot of doors and there's so many more possibilities and I can just move about the world differently. For instance, when I came out like because I didn't have that timeline in my mind growing up I have to get married at this age and I have to have a kid. And I'm when is this going to happen for me? I was just kind of living my life, I stayed single and child free and then when I came out at 32, almost 33, I was able to just pivot and not have to get divorced and not have a kid. That has to adjust. It's like I'm able to be like oh wait, a minute, this is my truth, this has always been me, and now I can just shift over and nothing has to be undone. I'm just ready to go.

Speaker 1: 22:26

Yeah that's really been exciting, and so I don't. I think that sometimes doesn't get talked about or thought about. What does being child free give you? What do you gain from it? Because it really comes with a lot of possibility. You don't have strings, you can just shift, you can move, you can change jobs, you can just reassess your life at any given moment.

Speaker 2: 22:45

Yeah, it's more than being able to drop everything and go to Europe. It's like the true life shifts. Yeah, you just have the freedom to make those.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Yes, and you have the time to really explore yourself and figure out what you want and who you are. And it's a lifelong journey because you know you're always getting older and life is always changing around you, so you'll never truly know it's you never really truly know yourself, so it's just a lifelong journey that you get to explore and find people who you connect with.

Speaker 2: 23:12

About that so you've talked about this timeline a couple times that you don't need to subscribe to, and another one of your posts that I was reading I think you've mentioned it a couple times that the, the biological clock is a myth, and it reminds me of the myth of BMI, which I don't know if you know is developed basically by an astronomer, not a doctor, in the 1800s. He did not mean for it to be a means of medical assessment, basically. So I saw that and reminded me of that, so was hoping you might be able to elaborate on the biological clock myth, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:45

So I learned recently that I think the biological clock was just made up by a male journalist in 1978. He was writing an article about like career women and that one day the biological clock's gonna kick in. And that's just a phrase he made up.

Speaker 2: 24:00

Meaning we don't have a clock inside of us Sticking. I had no idea, but it kind of feels like I do because I've been told it my whole life. That's the thing.

Speaker 1: 24:09

And what's funny is I always knew, like I'm pretty much, I always knew I was going to be child free. But I remember when my nephews were born, I think I was about 25, god, 24, 25. And I remember thinking like, anticipating it. And is this going to change my mind? Is this what is going to make it kick in? We're looking at the picture and thinking, nope any minute now.

Speaker 1: 24:29

Yeah, and I was so relieved I kind of knew that it wasn't going to change my mind, but I truly believe that it didn't and I was like, no, I love them. They're so cute and they're great. And same with when my nieces were born. All four of them wanting children is just something that not everybody has in them. We don't all want the same thing. Then I like the idea that motherhood is optional. It just is. I just never had that desire and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 24:53

And it is hard. I mean you. I mean it can be hard. You can feel locked out because most people yeah, most people want to have kids and so it is something you can kind of feel left out of. Everyone else seems to want this. It can be a little like odd one out and that's why I think we need the representation. But I also think that the doubts and the loneliness and the very human feelings come with every life choice. Every person is going to feel those feelings. If you're married, you can feel lonely. If you have kids, you can feel lonely and left out, like you don't have deep enough friendship. Women with families and husbands and kids will tell me that they feel the same things that I feel.

Speaker 1: 25:31

So, really it's a human experience. You're going to have the full range of human emotions, no matter what life path you go down, and that's okay, that's human.

Speaker 1: 25:40

For me, the child's choice has gotten a lot easier as I've gotten older, even if you're feeling a little like insecure about it, if, you know, uncomfortable with it, you know, in your 20s that kind of makes sense Because that's kind of the prime time that most of your friends and most people are kind of gearing up for that. I think it's getting later, with people choosing to have kids a little bit later now. I think as you grow older, you kind of just get more comfortable with yourself.

Speaker 2: 26:03

I really resonate with that. I spent most of my 20s waiting for, I guess, my biological clock to go off and then, when it didn't, I didn't feel relief. I felt a little concerned. So, like, what is wrong with me? I still have this memory.

Speaker 2: 26:18

I was in my I was probably 27, 28 working in New York City and I had a pretty vibrant social life, was going out almost every night it was like a Thursday or a Friday and my coworker, who was 32 at the time in my mind, was so old which is hilarious and we were talking about our weekend plans. She's like I'm going to go babysit my friends' kids. And I was like, oh, why would you do that? And she was like Laura, I'm 32. And I'm single, without children. Of course I want to go spend time with children. And I just remember looking at her and be like I don't think I'm ever going to want to pick babysitting over going out, which I'm not really looking to go out every night anymore. I think I've switched my mind on that, but I just remember looking at her being like am I wrong here? Is there something wrong with me? I really can't imagine that. And I hit 32. And that feeling still never came around.

Speaker 1: 27:08

So I can't imagine that either. I've never thought about that Like, oh yeah, I've got to get my baby fixed in.

Speaker 2: 27:13

Yeah, and she was a mentor to me. I really respected her. She was so good at her job and when she said that to me I just I just doubted myself because she looked at me like I was the crazy one and I was just like I seem to be on a different path, which, again, it took a series of those moments, basically from the clock never going off, to getting us here Before we started the interview. You were talking about how everyone in the child free community seems to be in a relationship and there aren't any single people. I would love to talk about that more. Where are the single people? That seems odd.

Speaker 1: 27:45

I know it does seem odd. I mean I really don't know. Wish I had a better answer. The one thing I think about is that maybe Single people think that once they meet their partners they'll change their mind. Or they can't definitively say I'm child-free Because they haven't met a partner, and so it feels like, well, you don't know, till you know, never say never. Maybe my partner will want kids, I could change my mind. I don't want to be set in stone. Mm-hmm, maybe that's it. That's my best guess. Probably there is a lack of representation with child-free single women and adults.

Speaker 2: 28:17

Do you get the question of oh, you'll change your mind once you find the right person, not the question. You get the comment that being child-free is just contingent upon you being single. Once you find the right person, you'll want to change your mind.

Speaker 1: 28:30

No, I've never gotten that. I almost feel like a bit of a fraud. It's like I've never gotten the questions and the comments that people talk about kind of you, but very, very few and far between. I did think maybe once I came out as queer that I'd be like, oh, I didn't want kids because I didn't like men. But maybe now that I'm queer I might change my mind. But then I looked at queer families with kids and I still thought, no, no, it just seems like so much work. Honestly, it's just, it's so much work. It's just like I can't.

Speaker 1: 29:00

I'm an introvert, like, and I, you know I have a chronic condition and I can't be on all the time. I can't be go-go-go all the time. Even as a little kid I didn't like running a bunch of errands in one day. I didn't like, I still don't like running a bunch of errand and I don't even like cooking for myself, figuring out what to eat three times a day. I don't want to do that for somebody else or more than somebody. It's just overwhelming like unpaid job that I just I can't do it. I'm opting out.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Yeah, I think it's definitely the biggest commitment you can make yeah, and the physical aspect of it, but also the emotional and mental aspect of it. It's just you don't know what you, what world You're gonna bring your kids into. Like, my childhood is just a 180 from what the world is now.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Yeah, have you seen a difference in navigating the dating scene as a child-free individual who is heterosexual versus a child-free individual who identifies as queer, not?

Speaker 1: 29:56

that I really noticed. I just try to be upfront about it. I have it on my, my dating profile always. I really not that I can really say. It's just something to be upfront about. One thing I will say is that I feel like a lot of sys-hat guys could go either way on having kids and so if I saw like Want kids or like whatever they said about kid, that would be like okay and like we don't know if that's set in stone, maybe. Maybe someone told me well, they put they want kids to kind of catch as many people as they can. You know what I mean and like, oh god.

Speaker 2: 30:26

I don't know if that's true. So they're like we just won't put a stake in the ground to catch as many people out there.

Speaker 1: 30:30

I think in dating women, I think it's much more. You know your choice, kind of like height. Yeah, we're not gonna lie about our height.

Speaker 2: 30:41

So interesting. Women are like they know what they want when it comes to kids and they're fine with their height, and men are just all over the place, can't commit to a true height or whether or not they want kids. That's actually really interesting.

Speaker 1: 30:55

Yeah, I've met so many guys who've lied about their height. Oh, my gosh, cuz I'm tall, I'm five, nine and oh.

Speaker 2: 31:03

And I ran into the same thing on the dating apps.

Speaker 1: 31:06

I think they say they're taller than me with the same height, or they're shorter, like Even some guys, clarify what height they are, just so you know I'm this height. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm fine with that. And then I later found out they lied about that. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2: 31:19

God, brutal. I digress no, this is fascinating. I didn't even think about that, but that is I really.

Speaker 1: 31:26

I find that fascinating that women come in with a strong opinion about I think it's such a big decision for us If we kind of got to know. Of course there are friends, sitters I'm sure I don't even know if that's the selection on the apps you can do if you like, I'm sure you can be like undecided, I'm sure there is an option. But I think it's something that we kind of have to know about ourselves, especially as we get towards a certain age 30s, 40s and it really makes a bigger impact on our lives. A lot of guys can just be dad, but they're really just, they're not the default parent. But for women, you know, this is gonna be a huge impact on my life in some way, shape or form. So we got to be certain and we got to know what we want.

Speaker 2: 32:03

Yeah, I agree. Even today it's really hard to split it 5050. Obviously, I can't speak from firsthand, but just my observations is it's there's way more sacrifice on one side. Like starting first day you become pregnant.

Speaker 1: 32:17

Yeah, and that was kind of my fear, kind of one of my issues with getting married and having a traditional relationship. I always had this fear that I would think I was getting into a modern relationship and it would be 5050 and I'm a feminist and we're gonna be equal partners. And then I'd realize, oh no. Like as I got down further into the relationship I'd realize once it was kind of locked down I'd realize, oh no, this is masquerading at the modern relationship. But actually it's really pretty similar to my grandparents relationship and that's what I signed up for. That's always the reason I've really taken my time, because it's one of the biggest decisions you make who you partner with and and if you have kids. So I just believe in taking whatever time you need because it's your life. Do not let society tell you what to do. There's a lot of unhappy people who got married and had kids.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Just make sure it's what you want to do for you and not on some kind of timeline or because of society or friendship pressure.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Yeah, I would say I did not start this podcast to advocate for one life path or the other, but I am advocating for people to think critically about the choice before making it because, it has Long lasting impacts. Obviously, that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 33:24

That's the thing. Like I'm, I'm pro any choice you want to make, but it's just. We don't live in a vacuum. Society is telling us what they want us to do and they are conditioning us to go down certain routes. Especially as a woman, you really have to think really critically before they make their choices, because they can end up affecting your life forever, even if you get divorced. Do the big choices to make.

Speaker 2: 33:47

Yeah, I think, helping people think critically about it and also helping them see or distinguish in between societal voices and what your voice is and what your part is actually saying I think that's hard. They can be very indistinguishable.

Speaker 1: 34:01

Yes, and also showing that child-free and single people can have really happy lives. I think sometimes it's well like in today's modern world well, you have a choice, okay. But if one choice everyone loves you and you get all the likes and the acceptance and the parties and then the other choice, well, you're just alone and well, yeah, what choice do you think people are going to make? But if you frame both choices as happy, fulfilling lives to lead, that's when you actually give people a choice. What I'm trying to do is show that like, hey, you can have a really happy, fulfilling, satisfying, full life if you choose to be single or child-free or both or whatever combo, or just live an alternative life path, just in any way neurodivergent or queer or anything and as you get older we have an ageism problem too showing that either way you can have a happy life and it's not just one versus the other. They're all great fine paths. You just need to really figure out which one you want, because, again, we have a lot of conditioning in this society.

Speaker 2: 35:04

Yeah, neither is perfect.

Speaker 1: 35:06

No.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Both will be difficult in their own ways.

Speaker 1: 35:09

Exactly, and both will be rewarding. Right. Yeah, both are going to have hard parts and good parts, but if you choose what aligns with who you are and your values, I think you're more likely to have a happy life because they're being true to yourself ultimately.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Well, I appreciate the content that you put out there and the lens that you have into your normal, child-free life. I'm thankful that we have people like you creating this content, normalizing the choice Do you want to talk about where you are on social media, how people can find you?

Speaker 1: 35:39

Yeah, so my little corner of the internet is right now. It's basically my Instagram account, which is at lisbethloane and kind of like your single child-free BFF. I share a lot of that my life and it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 35:53

It's great. I've loved your content. I am so grateful that you again took a chance on a random person reaching out. I don't even know if I had an episode out when I think I just dropped my first one.

Speaker 1: 36:03

I'm listening to both of them? Yeah, too much. And they were really good. I enjoyed them.

Speaker 2: 36:09

Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so fun to talk to you. This was a great conversation. Sorry, it's getting so dark. I'm in Chicago and the sun has now set.

Speaker 2: 36:18

So I'm sitting in the dark with the ghostly light on my computer lighting my face, but I hope we stay in touch and thank you. And that's it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, or please consider leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts. Those really help and I will see you next week. Thanks,