10. John Thomas on redefining your legacy

Today I'm joined by John Thomas, a friend of a friend brave enough to sit down (in person!) with me to discuss his childfree journey. Join us for an episode that champions the freedom of choice and celebrates the many ways individuals can contribute positively to society - children or not.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

You don't have to be a parent to be a positive influence on the next generation, and that's again where maybe it's not as obvious as being a parent and this child is mine, but there is no doubt that I've influenced the world for the better through all of my efforts, and I think not having kids has enabled me to do even more of that.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Welcome back everyone to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I am your host, laura Allen, and I am back from a two week break which honestly flew by, but it also feels like it's been forever since I've recorded anything, so I'm excited to be back. Today's guest is a gentleman named John Thomas who lives here in Chicago, so we were actually able to do my very first in person interview together, which I know sounds simple in theory, and I think I overestimated how simple it would be because truly poor John had to sit and watch me struggle forever with an absolute mountain of cords, trying to get both mics hooked up and then trying to get them both to record at the same volume. It took forever. So if I sound a little frazzled at the top of the interview, it's because I'm literally sweating from the effort. There were actually a couple moments where I didn't think I'd be able to make a work and we would have to just pack everything up and go home, but we persisted.

Speaker 2: 1:37

John helped Thank God he works in tech and I'm so glad we did because it was such a fun conversation. What really stands out to me about John is just how committed he is to giving back. You'll hear in the episode just how much volunteering and community outreach he's involved in, and is a really great example of how you can, of course, have an impact on this world and on future generations, even without having children. I'm so grateful that he was willing to come on and tell his story, because I asked him only after meeting him once, in my typical fashion, just throwing the invite out there. And now I have a new friend in the same city as me who is child-free, and that is such a gift. So on that note of gratitude, let's jump in. John, welcome to Child-Free Me.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Great to be here finally.

Speaker 2: 2:39

We finally got this up and running. I'm sweating a bit, it was tough, but that's okay and you're my first in-person interview. This is so exciting for anyone who's listening. We're sitting on my couch, aka my recording studio, and we're having some drinks. We are about an hour behind where I wanted to be, but that's okay. We got there eventually. So, john, you and I met through friends right when I had just started thinking about making this podcast and we'd gone out to dinner and I had honestly just committed to putting this podcast together. I hadn't recorded anything, it was very nascent in its ideation and I had promised myself earlier that I would start talking about it and putting it out there and basically committing to myself that I would make this happen, and part of that was telling friends or telling anyone who would listen. So we went out to dinner and you were a complete stranger and somehow it came up.

Speaker 1: 3:35

I don't know that you brought it up. I thought I brought it up.

Speaker 2: 3:38

Being child-free.

Speaker 1: 3:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:39

I honestly have no idea.

Speaker 1: 3:40

I think it was like I was talking about how much I love traveling and that's why I don't even have a dog and I don't really want to have kids, and then I swooped right in there. Yeah, because I don't think you ever even mentioned the podcast until well after that.

Speaker 2: 3:53

Okay.

Speaker 1: 3:54

That's where I was saying like I felt like there was like a secret hand signal where because it is a bonding moment right Like most people don't have that view on life, and I felt like that was like oh, I really like her. She's very open about you know her life choices and being child-free, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Okay, that's interesting I there was drinking involved.

Speaker 1: 4:13

That's why it's a little blurry.

Speaker 2: 4:15

Let the record show that there was wine at a very delicious restaurant called Abba here in Chicago. It's interesting because I felt like I just threw my podcast out there and was like making this podcast, and I think you're right. We had talked about being child-free before, but you had this moment and you looked at me and you were like, oh, that's a really good idea. And it was so affirming that you'd be like I think it's a good idea. There's a lot of things you can do. It's worth talking about, so I appreciate that.

Speaker 1: 4:43

Absolutely, and I have always been someone pretty open about it myself, and that's why I also podcast or not like to tell people that, because it is something that I think should be talked about as a society.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Yeah, absolutely. How old were you when you decided you didn't want to have children?

Speaker 1: 5:01

So I would say, probably in my mid 30s, and it was probably maybe five or seven years where I felt full confidence pretty much that kids were not for me for a long time. Before that I definitely was unsure, also open minded, but like relationships and things. You always want to leave that crack, but then recently I've just been like not that it's too late, but I don't want it, I just don't want to. Yeah, and I think that was a revelation.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Well, to the point of being too late. Do you feel like you have a biological clock, or is that something?

Speaker 1: 5:33

Not like physically. Well, a little bit physically. Not like in the sense of of course it's possible. As a man I am not aware of any issues there. But what I mean is the energy levels, the commitment and, again, like if I were to have a child I would take it very seriously and that's not just 18 and done for me right and like putting them through college and supporting them well into their adulthood.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Braces.

Speaker 1: 5:59

Yeah, and all those things take so much time and energy and mental capacity and that's why I feel a little bit that that ship has sailed not per se, biologically, but the other factors of life.

Speaker 2: 6:11

Yeah, that's interesting. Obviously, I know that there's no literal biological clock inside of me, Thank goodness Well.

Speaker 1: 6:17

Janet Jackson had a baby at 50. So what. Yeah, you didn't know that. No Her first child, 50.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Oh my gosh. I think I said in my last episode I was pissed that the Kardashians are having babies at 44 because that's pushing out my timeline, but 50 is a lot. So I was going to say I learned recently that the concept of a biological clock was coined by a journalist who basically just was talking about women in the workforce and how they have this biological clock. That's ticking, but men never have to deal with that. But it's interesting to hear your perspective that you may, like you said, like physically it'll be fine, but just in terms of where you are in your life and how old you're going to be when they're, I don't even know. Graduating sounds like it still applies. So that's one stereotype that I want to debunk about men and having children, because they seem to have like an endless time in front of them. Do you have nieces, nephews? What has that conversation been like with your family?

Speaker 1: 7:15

So that's kind of funny. I don't know that. My whole family knows that I don't want to have kids. I know I've had conversations with that topic with them but, like my nephews, I'm very close to my nephews. They're older now 16 and 14, not too old and we have a great relationship. And that's the other part, that another myth just because I don't want to have kids myself. I love kids. I love watching my nephews grow up. I love being an adult figure in their life. I've volunteered with kids Most of my adulthood. I think they're important and fun and everything about that is still a great experience, but I just don't want them for myself for so many reasons, like we were talking about before, of the commitment that's why I?

Speaker 1: 7:57

don't have a dog. I want to be able to travel and just explore, potentially move to another state or country or whatever. And career is very important to me, and not that you have to sacrifice that as a parent, but you just naturally can't have the same level of investment.

Speaker 2: 8:14

I think there are sacrifices that are made. Of course there has to be.

Speaker 1: 8:18

Prioritization and again, your relationship, how that is balanced between the two. I've had conversations with family, because this is another stereotype. I'm an openly gay man and some family and even some friends have often talked about like, oh well, you'll never have real kids. You know, I understand what they mean to an extent. I could get a surrogate and it could be, my. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 8:40

Like but again like that's another thing that I think is gay or straight, you can still adopt. There's many like the biological clock thing, but there is such a index on biological children. Yeah, that that was another you know conversation that, oh, how kids come up is frequently with me is like, oh, how would you do that, you know, and it's like, well, do I even want to do that?

Speaker 2: 9:02

I don't. Is there more often the assumption that you're not going to have children because the notion that you won't have your own biological kids, or is it more the assumption that you are going to try to have children eventually? I think it's pretty split Interesting.

Speaker 1: 9:16

I don't and again, like I think people that know me better and know that that would never stop me from having kids, but then that do know me and I have shared it with many of my friends that I just don't want children. There's too many kids already Like there's like a lot of reasons not to. There's a lot of uncared for children in the world and if I were to go that route, I probably would adopt just because, again, there are so many people out there that do need parents. I don't want to add more. And to the planet and all of the other things happening in the world the wars and conflict, it's a wild place out there and I I definitely am cognizant of that as part of my decision. There's so many reasons in my mind that influence my perspective on it and my views of why I don't, and there's very little, not in the pros side, but that are compelling reasons for me to have children.

Speaker 2: 10:05

Did you weigh these pros and cons prior to making the decision, or is it something you always knew, and then it's reinforced your decision after the fact?

Speaker 1: 10:14

I think it was a reverse.

Speaker 1: 10:15

I think like when I was younger I did want to have children and I think seeing my friends around me have children and how that affected their lives, and and not to say that they're like miserable or something but there is a before and after moment with so many people when they become parents, that they change as a person and of course it's for the better, for for them in their relationship, and that they wouldn't undo that. But at the same time, like physically, mentally and emotionally it wears on them. I I've seen it so many time and time again of where it's a lot of work and it's a lot of. You know what I mean and they even like look older almost instantly. You know like it's like living through that planted the seed of, of seeing like not that they weren't unhappy, but like that there was so much more to think about. Cause again, I think as society there's so much pressure that it's just an assumption that everyone should have kids and for those people that actually stop and take a moment and reflect on it.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Yeah, critically think about it.

Speaker 2: 11:12

My first guest talked about how, when she was young and she's in her 60s now, but she got married at 25 and she talks about people would tell her, oh, you're overthinking it, cause she would. People would ask her when she's going to have a child and she's like, well, you know all the reasons you just listed education, the cost, all of that and they're like, oh, you're overthinking it, just have one. And I think that more and more in raising a child in today's world, with everything that's happening, the cost alone and the fact that you need dual income, I think, to support most families in most parts of America maybe that's a total generalization, but just the cost alone and the sacrifices that have to be made. I think it requires some thinking prior to it and it's hard to distinguish between society's voice and what your own voice is telling you.

Speaker 1: 12:03

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 12:03

I think that's one of the purposes of this podcast is to get people, if they're on the fence, to maybe understand that it's there's another path, and make sure that you're thinking about it deeply before just having it Well and again, like what you were saying and how we first met and first started talking about it.

Speaker 1: 12:19

Even just the realization that there's a lot of other people who feel the same way is somewhat reassuring. Not that there's shame with it, but it's something. When you say that exactly what you were saying before of oh well, you're overthinking it, or what do you mean? You and the very common I just had this conversation they're like you would be such a great dad. What do you mean? You don't want to have kids and it's like I know I would be a good dad. There's that, no doubt, and I would put my whole heart and soul into it. But it's okay for me to make that decision. And yeah, like, maybe it's a little selfish, but again, when it comes to your own life and making your own life decisions, I don't want to just have kids because society tells me that's what I should be doing.

Speaker 2: 12:58

Yeah, some could argue that it's selfish to have children.

Speaker 1: 13:01

I would, yes, I would agree that that is a definite, and some people do have them for selfish reasons and other people have them for noble reasons and other people have them for a symbol of their love and their relationship. There's many reasons to have kids and many reasons not to have kids, and it's it really is something that each individual should decide and or relationship in that context together.

Speaker 2: 13:23

You have not discussed with your family explicitly your desire not to have children.

Speaker 1: 13:27

I think I've mentioned it a few times and I think a lot of times, and that's actually a funny, like interesting point. So we recently figured out I have some siblings, my sister has kids, my brother doesn't have kids, my brother's older. We figured out that my last name will die with this generation, like there's no one. It will not go on after this because my sister's married right. So, she, that's her maiden name.

Speaker 2: 13:52

Right.

Speaker 1: 13:52

But my uncles don't have children, and that that actually was something that really struck me and made me rethink it for a while. That was like a recent thing, after I already decided I don't want kids, and it gave me pause, but then I was just like again, that's not a reason to have kids. I obviously like love my family and I think our legacy is stronger than a last name Right.

Speaker 1: 14:12

And my nephews. We all have such an influence. My parents are incredible grandparents, and it was another moment where I was like, wow, there are some serious implications to this decision too.

Speaker 2: 14:23

Yeah, were your parents a part of that conversation.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Yeah, they were the first ones that highlighted it. I didn't figure that out on my own, because we were just talking about how, like, more and more, it looks like my brother isn't going to have children, and then it bridged you Well, john's probably not going to have kids either.

Speaker 2: 14:38

And that's when they made that assumption, or did you say that?

Speaker 1: 14:42

they made that assumption. Just again, like the age, I'm getting older and I'm not really dating anyone seriously right now either, and I think, again, like I have voiced, that that was my inclination. I don't think I've told them my level of confidence and certainty.

Speaker 2: 14:58

So you mentioned relationships. Have you been in a relationship where the person did want to have children? I guess, how was that discussed?

Speaker 1: 15:06

He wanted a lot of things and maybe it was selfish. But this was back in Michigan and I moved to Chicago and he didn't like that and we tried a little bit of LDR but it was like one factor of many of where we were just on two different levels and at the time I didn't even tell them that I really didn't want kids.

Speaker 2: 15:27

Yeah Well, you were in college at the point, right, right, Right. I feel like it comes up less in college the conversations than when you're in your 30s. But maybe, maybe that's just an assumption I make.

Speaker 1: 15:36

But again, even back then I had inclinations of I don't think I want kids. It evolves over time and that's where I at that point still I've still, like, known and thought about that for a long time.

Speaker 2: 15:48

Did you have a conversation around children explicitly, or was it the long distance?

Speaker 1: 15:52

No, they said we both, we did talk about he really did want kids. I said, oh, I'm open to it, even though I really wasn't. But like again, like, especially in a relationship, while that is somewhat of a deal breaker, it's such a nuance and especially early on, you don't want to just, you want to give that context of how you're feeling and why and it's a little bit difficult to go that deep that early on of well, here's all the reasons why I don't think I want kids.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Yeah, so you're saying it's hard to put a stake in the ground around it when you're that young or that early in the relationship?

Speaker 1: 16:26

Both, I think both, and again like where you don't want them to make assumptions about you as a person for having that there's so many again stereotypes about it where. I was kind of afraid that people will again, would think, especially people that you're dating. They're like oh wow, what a selfish jerk. I don't, I don't want to date this person anymore. They're just like only worried about themselves and they want to travel and whatever, whatever.

Speaker 2: 16:50

Yeah, so you're worried about how they would perceive it perceive you, which is interesting.

Speaker 1: 16:54

I never thought about that, I think there's a lot of things like that and early on in dating that you don't really talk about. Upfront your relationships with your family and, again, like it's not, like it's a secret, but it is something that you want to hold on to for a while until they understand the larger picture.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Do you think it comes up sooner now that you're in your mid to late 30s?

Speaker 1: 17:15

Yes, and I think now I would be a lot more open up front about it Because, especially again, like not that there is a biological clock, but I think people that are dating now a little bit older in life, are perhaps searching for someone to have children with and I wouldn't want to mislead them at this point. And again, with maturity and confidence in the decision, I think it's a lot easier to have that conversation now. But again, I probably wouldn't do it on the first date, second date or third?

Speaker 1: 17:43

Probably probably second date. Okay, Because again I don't want to mislead someone.

Speaker 2: 17:48

Right. Have you found that most people are looking for children Again?

Speaker 1: 17:52

I think it's like a pretty big split. Okay, and in the gay world in general, I think relationships are complex and it's a lot more instant gratification versus long term growing old together. And so for that subset of people that are and I am to be very clear, I'm very relationship oriented. I'm not, you know, I don't have all these flings, but like for that subset, okay, we have relationship oriented who don't want kids, that combo I do, I do think, reduces my pool.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yes, so most people who are relationship oriented are looking for children in this dating scene at least the possibility, and I think that probably cuts me off from a lot of possibilities.

Speaker 2: 18:36

I think one stereotype of people who are single is that if they find the right person, their minds will be changed. Do you ever wrestle with that? Do you think your mind could be changed, or is that a stereotype you've encountered?

Speaker 1: 18:50

I absolutely have encountered that stereotype, whether my mind would be changed by someone. I always will leave that possibility open, right, like I think that's again where relationships are about coming together into and there's a little bit of yourself, but it's also together. And that decision. While I feel very firm, I can't say that I would never be convinced otherwise. And if someone really really wanted to have kids and I was open about not having kids and then our relationship grew over time and we came to a mutual decision about it later on, I think I would need a lot more money and you know, like, because again, like what we were talking about earlier, like right now I cannot envision not living in Chicago, for example, and so many of my friends have had had kids and immediately go to the suburbs and I just I can't imagine that life for myself. Again, another reinforcing fact of why I feel so confident that I won't have kids is I love the city life. I love I will always live in the city, and it's very hard to do that when you have kids.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Yeah, I have gotten in the past. Well, what if Zach wants children? Like, what if he decides he wants children? And my somewhat joking response but not that joking is well, if he wants kids, we will just run a little financial model on what the cost is going to be, because I will need full time help, like I'm going to need a cook, a cleaner. We will be outsourcing a lot of things. I'm not giving up my career. We will have to pay through the nose and that will just be siphoned off from his golf budget and then it's like case closed, we can move on, which is sort of my joking.

Speaker 2: 20:30

But I would probably not be willing to make a lot of the sacrifices that are needed to be really present. Parents, I agree with you. I think I would be a good mother. But I it would be a struggle to give up the freedom and the focus on career and the need for flexibility, and I just don't think I'd be willing, like I can't give it up.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Well, and again like that's where it's like not a shame, but like the fact that you're even thinking about it that way that you're worried that he may change his mind about it. And again like that's one thing that I think is a little backwards about society is it makes you feel like you're wrong If someone else feels differently about that decision. And it's almost like the fact that you're worrying about it because it is so much societal pressure and it's so common and I relate to that so much I really do.

Speaker 2: 21:18

What I've noticed is there's the societal pressure that's put on us on almost a daily basis, right Just? We see it on TV, we see it in movies, we see it on Instagram. There's all this not even over. Sometimes it's very nuanced and subtle messages about having children and following this very traditional route. And then I have these moments of clarity outside of that, like I'll be driving through the suburbs and I just had this moment of man.

Speaker 2: 21:47

I really never want to be here, I would be not happy, or will drive by a school and I'll have this moment of I'm so grateful I will never have to shepherd a child through these hallways. It's like these very clear messages I feel like my mind and my body have started to give me more and more as I'm Aging and coming to terms with being child-free, because you can get away with it when you're in your late 20s it's kind of pushed off or even early 30s. But now I feel like I have these moments of everyone has a baby. What's wrong with me? But then I have these very clear moments of this is not what you want so Agree with that.

Speaker 1: 22:27

And there's, I have more signals of the same thing, like even what I was talking about watching my nephews or Babysitting whatever you have fun in that moment, but then at the end of the day you're like I am exhausted, I am so glad that I give them back to you and I am now done with it and I don't want to drive a minivan. I don't want all any of that like a really, really the same thing where there is a lot of Reinforcement there, and the same thing with friends that have kids. I feel like on some level, sometimes they're even a little jealous of our lifestyle and like how we are living and Traveling and laying in bed when I'm hungover for the whole day.

Speaker 2: 23:04

You know what I mean. After a wedding I'm like it really becomes clear.

Speaker 1: 23:08

Absolutely, and I like that affirmation Mentality, because it really that is how I, how I feel about it too, especially after you make the decision, and then you see those signals that, yes, this is the right thing for me.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Yeah, and yet again, society is still there, ever pervasive, I guess so you seem to have a lot of friends, and a lot of them seem to have children. Yes do you have a community of child-free people or how do you find that community?

Speaker 1: 23:34

Yes, and usually what happens. I'm very close with my friends that have kids. It's just a different relationship once they have children because it tends to revolve around them having kids. It's like birthday parties and coming over to watch a movie Well, they're kids sleeping versus what we used to do, which was go out for a drink or some adventure, you know whatever. As far as like finding people that don't have kids, it does get harder as you get older. I think it's very.

Speaker 1: 24:01

Most of my friends have kids and what usually happens for me is, especially in Chicago, it's very easy to meet new people and what's typically happening for me right now is I have younger friends and we'll get really close and we'll have our common activities set, and then they'll tend to Get in a relationship, get married and then have kids, and then it changes and they go back to that other. They fall into the other group of people with kids and it's again. I don't lose them as friends, it's just our whole relationship changes. They don't have the time to hang out and they're not interested in the same set of Activities, at least in the beginning. And then it's also interesting I started to see it come back around the other way, where, after Some of my friends have had kids at a younger age and then they come to the point where the kids are older and they want to go back to going out and having fun, yeah, exactly and so they'll come back into my life and a new way, a stronger relationship, whatever.

Speaker 1: 24:55

So it's it's it's. It's an interesting cycle and and it it sometimes I'm gonna put it out there that sometimes it hurts your feelings a little bit that not that your relationship ends, but it's different once they have children and you can be so close with someone and then all of a sudden it turns into oh, you're only talking to them maybe once a month and then hanging out every couple of months, and it can be hurtful. And that's where I think I do try to seek out, when that happens, new friends and new relationships, because we all do want companionship and people that we, our community, and all of those things.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Yeah, there's definitely a morning period, at least for me, when my close friends Announce that they're gonna have a child, because I'm happy for them, of course, because I know it's what they want. But just, it's a chapter, it changes your relationship and it's never gonna be the same again, really. So I've gone through that a couple times Because it's it's a path that I just know I can't follow them on. Have you ever tried to find people or friends who are child-free, so some people who know they don't want to have children?

Speaker 1: 26:00

not directly, but again, like I'm pretty open about it when I and I celebrate that, when there is someone like me who is Confident in that decision, I don't even know how I would do that.

Speaker 2: 26:11

But fine child-free people, the one that, yeah, going on a child free podcast.

Speaker 1: 26:16

Yeah, reach out to me if you want to hang out in Chicago. But yeah, I mean like that. I don't know that I've specifically done that. I tend to just try to find new friends that have common interests in their lives and go from there. I have recently made a lot of new friends because a lot of my friends had moved to the suburbs, etc. And I feel very old because they're very young. I just realized one of my new friends at work. She's in her 20s and I was like wait you're in your 20s.

Speaker 1: 26:45

I mean like, and there's nothing wrong with it, we have a great relationship. But that's again where I'm like okay, well, how long will this last before you have kids or whatever? You know?

Speaker 2: 26:54

Yeah, I'm similar and for any of my business school friends who are listening to this are rolling their eyes because I Went to business school on the older side for a female and I was a single female, so I was 30 when I started, which put me definitely on the older side. Most of my friends in business school are four years younger than me. So I got this whole new group of friends who were younger and none of them had children and now a lot of them have Got married and now they're having children and I'm sort of in my mind I'm like well, do I need to go find my next group of younger people? Basically, and even at work, I have someone at work who is 30 and he's always like I always think you're my age. I'm like I'm not, but in my mind I am. I feel like it.

Speaker 2: 27:37

You naturally gravitate, maybe towards the younger look, am I always gonna be friends with 30 year olds even as I Turn 50?

Speaker 1: 27:46

I do have like one of my friends in California and she was, I think I don't want to miss quote here, but I think she was in her 70s and we would have game night and like hang out and like I do think like Was she child free?

Speaker 2: 27:58

Yes, she was, she was. Does she want to be on the podcast?

Speaker 1: 28:01

I don't know I could text her. I mean she had a very like interesting life story and she had her reasons for not having kids, but she lived a pretty active and happy life. You could tell she was happy. That's the other part that I think that, again, going back to the societal pressure, I think people think that you must not be happy or you're depressed because you don't have kids and it's like no, I live a very fulfilling life and I'm very. I am a very happy, positive person and I don't have any regrets about any of those decisions around kids.

Speaker 2: 28:30

Yeah, did you guys talk about being child free?

Speaker 1: 28:32

She did. She did talk about that. I didn't really talk about it cause she was more like oh, single guy like do you want me to queue up with whatever?

Speaker 1: 28:40

I don't even know if she really knew that I was gay but like again like it is like a weird thing, like she probably was like what is with this guy? Like he's got time to play games with his random neighbor. But that's who I am, and I think that's what not having kids does open you up to different types of relationships, and being more open minded than someone who had kids would probably be like oh, can you babysit for me? You know, like it would just change the whole dynamic.

Speaker 2: 29:07

Do you babysit for your friends kids?

Speaker 1: 29:09

I do, I have yes.

Speaker 2: 29:11

You're a good friend. Do you change diapers?

Speaker 1: 29:14

I have. I don't like diapers. But like at the same time, like again, like. Our relationship is important, and I know that they also sometimes need a break from being a parent, and I'm happy to do that for them. I think there's also, like again, a stereotype. This is another one that kind of drives me nuts is they think that I wouldn't be good?

Speaker 1: 29:33

at babysitting or I don't know what it's like, cause I'm not a parent and you, whatever, whatever. And again like I've had a lot of experience with kids, even without having them, and kids generally like me. And again like I think that people don't realize you don't have to have kids to be able to speak about them, and maybe I don't know everything, of course, but at the same time that I'm still entitled to have an opinion on things related to kids.

Speaker 2: 29:58

I also think my friends would not want me to be alone with their children. I actually think they're right. I would be nervous to be left with a baby overnight. I don't think I would be.

Speaker 1: 30:09

So you've never done that.

Speaker 2: 30:10

So I babysat growing up, but I don't think I've ever babysat an infant.

Speaker 1: 30:15

I have babysat an infant.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Okay, you are a better person and that was.

Speaker 1: 30:18

That is the most difficult, because I remember it was my cousin and she just was crying and crying and I was like I don't know what to do and it's like a little bit of a panic, and again like as a new parent new parents probably have the same feeling. But then again, like, again, I figured it out. You know, like I held her and eventually she stopped crying. You know, oh, are you hungry, like it's not, as Did you sleep at all?

Speaker 1: 30:40

So it wasn't overnight it was like but it was like you know, kids go to bed early and she was asleep and woke up and, just like a new parent, you kind of figure it out and I don't want to say that it's not hard, but it is easier than you would think. To like figure things out and try things, it's kind of into a she was hungry.

Speaker 2: 30:57

She wanted to eat. You're a good friend? I don't think my friends. My mind is flashing through all my friends with babies and I'm sure if they ever listened to this it'd be like, oh God, we would not leave Laura alone with them. I would figure it out because I'm smart, but I don't think I would be their first choice.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Well, a benefit. Of kids act different when their parents aren't around.

Speaker 2: 31:17

Oh, you're right.

Speaker 1: 31:18

And again, it's almost fun for them, Uncle John or whatever, they definitely are. I think easier with other people than they are with their parents.

Speaker 2: 31:27

Makes sense. I still don't think I would be asked To babysit, which is fine. I feel like I bring value in other ways to our friendships.

Speaker 1: 31:34

I feel like that bothers you.

Speaker 2: 31:36

No, it's more. It doesn't bother me. I'm more embarrassed because I like to be good at things. Did you babysit a lot?

Speaker 1: 31:42

Not when I was 16, but I worked with kids. I was a lifeguard so many. It was at like a kind of like a little bit of a water park sort of situation where there was it was all mostly kids and I loved hanging out with the kids and like I would go down the water slide with them and stuff and like I've even saved several kids as a lifeguard from drowning.

Speaker 2: 32:02

You saved lives.

Speaker 1: 32:03

Absolutely Like, probably in the hundreds. Like kids drown a lot, wow, not like CPR, but like they were drowning and they would have died if I didn't jump in and save them. At the end of the day I was like, okay, glad I can turn that off and it's not something I have to bring home with me or do after, like I don't know. Like there's, kids are fun to be around for me and I like and again, even in college I volunteered at a butterfly garden. I don't know, I've always been into volunteering and with kids and even older people, whatever, and their fascination and just like that spark of joy that they get is contagious and I like being around that. But again, like there's all these other things that I don't like being around it.

Speaker 2: 32:48

One question and you already touched on this a little bit about legacy is if you don't have children, you aren't leaving a legacy. How do you think about that and the legacy you want to leave?

Speaker 1: 33:00

I feel so comfortable and that's another thing that, like I think, has helped me make this decision my impact on other people's lives, whether it's my friends, my family, my career, what I've built.

Speaker 1: 33:15

I have so much joy from all of those things and I know I've brought so much joy to the people in my life that I know my legacy will live on, even through their children and my relationship with them so many of my close friends that I have a great relationship with their kids and I actually like see it, even when I'm getting older and I'm that old neighbor, like I think that their kids will still come and be like Uncle John, I remember when you took me here, I'll be like, yeah, and then I went out after and like I have no regrets and I've lived a really, really good life and I'm very grateful for that and my legacy.

Speaker 1: 33:53

I'm very confident in who I am and that I've had a positive impact on this world despite I don't know if that's even the right word, not despite, but like even without having kids. I have put my whole heart and soul into living a good life and being a good, positive person in this world and trying to have as much fun and help others along the way and build so many incredible parts of my life up that I don't worry about my legacy at all.

Speaker 2: 34:23

I mean, I love that. I love what you said about the impact you've had on others' children, even like the next generation, because I think there's a notion that we aren't contributing to the next generation, which obviously isn't true, because there's a lot of ways that we can.

Speaker 1: 34:38

Yeah, a few examples. Like I, last year on my birthday I volunteered at a Chicago public school teaching STEM. I'm in technology and literally I could not believe how excited and inspired those kids were by my presence and talking to them about tech. And we did this silly like exercise where they coded their own thing, and like there is no doubt that one of those 60 kids I might have changed their trajectory, where they're like oh, I wanna be better and I wanna learn how to do this. And there's so many of those little moments you don't have to be a parent to be a positive influence on the next generation. And that's again where maybe it's not as obvious as being a parent and this child is mine, but there is no doubt that I've influenced the world for the better through all of my efforts. And I think not having kids has enabled me to do even more of that, because I don't have all of these extra commitments yeah, you have more time and resources.

Speaker 1: 35:37

Yeah, and flexibility.

Speaker 2: 35:39

What was the program?

Speaker 1: 35:40

It was through work. That was one of the things that I do through work. I've done a lot of volunteer events like that. Especially Chicago has a lot of underserved communities. Yeah, I used to do Chicago ISA. They had this field day, youth sports alliance. It was so fun to like get kids out and have a giant field day and do all of that stuff. A lot of Programs like that I've been involved in with kids and again, even seniors.

Speaker 1: 36:03

I've cleaned senior citizen homes before like again and they're so grateful and homeless shelters I do the Lincoln Park community shelter pretty frequently. Oh really.

Speaker 2: 36:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Yeah, and you just make all the food and like and sitting down and talking to the Residents and that's a unique shelter where it's longer term people. They're not just passing through right.

Speaker 2: 36:24

I think one assumption that is made is that, as someone who is male and gay, there's less pressure to have children. Do you think that's right, or do you still feel the pressure from society to have children?

Speaker 1: 36:38

I think from the gay community. No, I think from society, at the wider society. It's still there and I mean I think it's funny because, like even on TV shows modern families, one of my favorite show like even in that they are following.

Speaker 1: 36:53

I don't want to say stir it, but the typical the non-typical, typical yeah yeah, where they have kids and they adopted and all of that, and you know, like I think from wider society there is, but from the gay community I feel like the gay community not that like anything goes, but they're way more accepting in general from our history Always being othered, they really everyone is very much. Come as you are, yeah, in that community, it's whatever safe space, but yeah, I think from larger society and again from mostly straight people and you know your parents and everything else, or is that?

Speaker 1: 37:25

that pressure of I want grandchildren or we have kids and they could play together. Yeah, well.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Thank you, john, this was so much fun I had a great time. I'm I appreciate your patience as we got this up and running. You're one of the reasons, honestly, that this podcast is off the ground, because you gave me so much support in that moment when I was just Ideating or thinking about this.

Speaker 1: 37:47

So I appreciate it Well, and that's where I'm. I think your legacy could be part of this, because it is something that I think everyone should recognize and appreciate that everyone has different life paths, and I'm really really grateful that we we connected.

Speaker 2: 38:02

I appreciate that you're coming back on. We're gonna definitely do part two and three of this sounds good, thank you.

Speaker 2: 38:14

And that is it for today. Thank you so much for joining me. Just a quick follow-up that John and I actually did end up going To the Lincoln Park Community Center and serving dinner. We planned a whole menu. We got some friends together. It was a ton of fun. So, again, just gonna end on a note of gratitude for this new friendship I have and for him really pushing me to get involved and give back, because I certainly do not do that enough. If you enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to subscribe or consider leaving a review wherever you get your podcast and I will see you next week. Thanks everyone, you.