19. Amanda Lane on being the fun, van-dwelling aunt

It was a blast from the past to sit down with my friend and former co-worker Amanda Lane. Join us as we reminisce about dating apps, discuss her decision to embrace van life, examine the ecological merits of not having children, and question why the American dream of buying a house is even necessary. 

Amanda's story is a testament to living life on her own terms and never succumbing to societal expectations. It was such a treat to reconnect with an old friend over a newfound affinity - I hope you love her story as much as I do!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

As a child, I really looked up to my working mother and I really wanted to doing air. Quotes here have it all Meaning. I thought that the best recipe for life was balancing a career and balancing a family. And I only started to question this norm of having children when, at 27, you probably remember the story at 27 an ex broke up with me because he claimed that I wanted children and he did not.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Welcome back everyone to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I am your host, laura Allen, and today's guest is my very good friend and former co-worker, amanda Lane. Amanda and I worked together several years ago in a past lifetime. You'll get to hear our origin story at the start of the interview, so I'm not going to go into a lot of detail about that here, but we hadn't seen each other in forever and had honestly kind of fallen out of touch. When a few months ago, she got to travel to Chicago for work and she reached out and over dinner I discovered that she and her husband were also child free, which was, of course, very exciting for me and I immediately made her promise to come on the show and record an episode with me. So here we are.

Speaker 2: 1:30

I have to say, listening back, I forgot how much fun Amanda and I have together. I think I might have been a little over tired because I could not stop laughing almost the entire conversation. It was fun to relive memories of our days working and playing in San Francisco. We were both doing a lot of dating on apps back then and we're certainly each other's partners in crime as we navigated those treacherous waters. And one thing I really regret not asking her during this interview is whether or not she and I talked about being child free or wanting to have kids back then. We were both in our 20s and I certainly knew at that point that I didn't want to have children, but I don't think even then it had entered into my conversations around dating or conversations with my friends. So maybe she and I can follow up with that and maybe we can do a second episode, but I'm not going to give too much else away. I'm very excited for you to hear this conversation, amanda. Thank you again for joining me and with that let's jump in.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Amanda, welcome to Child Free Me. Thanks for having me. So Amanda and I worked together. For anyone who has heard my very first episode on this show, I had a very good friend and co-worker on named Maricela, and Amanda actually worked at the same organization as me and Maricela, so I'm truly digging deep into my professional network. But it is so exciting to have you on. So, amanda and I we harken back to a time in our lives back in San Francisco when we were both very young and extremely single. I remember just going to lunch. We would sit there and look at our bumble abs and I would coach you on how to respond and you'd coach me, and then we would swap dating stories. Did you end up meeting your husband on a dating?

Speaker 1: 3:35

app. No. I came at a bar in San Francisco, the elbow room. I complimented him on his jacket and he complimented me on my dress. The rest, is history.

Speaker 2: 3:46

Okay, so you didn't meet your husband on an app, I did not meet Zach on an app. We met in the wild. So all of that effort and time and tears were completely wasted, but it's fine.

Speaker 1: 3:58

It was good practice. You know, then, when we found these gentlemen, we knew what we didn't want. We knew what we wanted. That's true.

Speaker 2: 4:05

It was a positive spin. I appreciate it. I mean, one of the things I love about this podcast is getting to reconnect with people in my past, and this is so fun. We came back together I guess a couple of months ago at this point, and I learned that you were child-free and immediately did not give you a choice to not come on the show. And here you are, so okay.

Speaker 2: 4:24

I've done a lot of talking. I typically like to start just with your journey to being child-free, but actually you have a very unique, fun spin to your story, which is that you and your husband, lee live the van life. So can you just tell us a little bit around where you are currently? Are you in the van, are you not in the van, and really what that life is like?

Speaker 1: 4:43

Sure. So during the pandemic we were living in Mill Valley, which is just north of San Francisco, and this was when California kind of shut down the roads and you couldn't go anywhere and we were getting stir crazy and we started taking trips up to different places and staying in Airbnb's for extended periods of time. And then something hit us where we were like why are we paying this crazy rent in the Bay?

Speaker 1: 5:10

Area when we're never at the apartment, because we don't want to just sit in an apartment all day. So we made the decision to purchase a van, afford transit and travel around the United States, and at the time everyone was remote. So my manager was like as long as you're working, I don't care where you are. So I did a tour and I went around the United States. Nowadays we're headquartered in Los Angeles but we still do kind of smaller trips in the van and you know we still have workstations if we need that and sometimes we say in Airbnb's if we just want to live the luxurious life. Right now I'm currently calling you from an Airbnb in Arizona. So we mostly stick to the western side of the United States. I think living or deciding to try out the van life and lead this life of adventure I suppose we could have done with an infant, but it probably would not have been very comfortable.

Speaker 2: 6:08

Yeah, yeah, and I was saying earlier like, we all see the Instagram feeds where people traveling around the country in a van with three kids and their lives look perfect, but I'm somewhat skeptical. Yes, how long do you plan on living this van life, like right now? Is it indefinitely? Because we'll talk in a minute about your decision to be child-free? But in my mind, most people would put that as like the end date. Do you have an end date in mind or is this going to be an ongoing thing?

Speaker 1: 6:34

That's a very good question and a question that everyone asks. I liked how you phrased end date. Most people phrase it as when are you going to settle down Triggering?

Speaker 2: 6:45

Triggering.

Speaker 1: 6:48

And I don't like the phrasing settle down because I never want to Not to settle. I remember I had a boyfriend for five years before I met you and everyone would always ask oh yeah, when are you going to settle down? When are you going to fly a house? When are you going to get married? When are you going to have kids? And so I remember just deciding I was like I'm never going to settle for anything. I'm always going to strive and want the best in life and for me that's adventure, for me that's travel.

Speaker 1: 7:15

And in the pandemic, pre-pandemic, adventure and travel for me was going around the world with friends on different trips. But in a post-pandemic world I realized there's just so much amazing stuff in our backyard that's only a drive away, you admit way less CO2. Also, so many of my friends are spread around the country. So it's awesome. Like you it was. I mean, I was traveling for work when I hung out with you. But I was traveling for work also because I don't have children. I tried so hard to give other folks on my team the opportunity to travel, but so many of them had just had a baby. So I said, hey, put me in coach, twist my arm to get to go to Chicago and New York during the holidays. It was beautiful.

Speaker 1: 7:58

So to answer a question is there an end date? There's never an end date to my traveling. I don't even know if we want to buy a house. I kind of like being able to have short term situations. I like the idea of having shorter term housing to trying out different cities. Of course California, as I mentioned, it's my home base. I, like the majority of my friends and family, are there, but it's kind of fun being able to see how it is to live in Tucson for a week or two. So I don't know if there's an end date and why does there have to be an end date also?

Speaker 2: 8:33

Yeah, fair enough. Maybe how I should have phrased it is is this a chapter, or is this something that you think is going to be ongoing? And it sounds like you're just playing it by ear, which is a nice perk of not having children. I want it on the record that both you and Lee have corporate jobs. Right, you work full time and are able just to make this work which is fantastic. Exactly, you and Lee have been married for five, six years, five years Since 2019.

Speaker 2: 8:59

Yes, five years, so you've been married for five years. I think we all know the questions that everyone gets once you've been dating for a while, and especially once you've been married for a while, which is these questions you mentioned before when are you going to have children? When are you going to buy a house? When are you going to settle down? Do you still get those questions, or has that petered off at all? It's funny.

Speaker 1: 9:19

I still get those questions. I actually was on a call with my parents last night. We have a little weekly Sunday chat and although I have mentioned to them many times that I do not want to have children, they still bring it up from time to time. Last night it was a offhanded comment where they said I know you right now don't want to have children, but if you do in the future, know that we are here to babysit or something to that effect, which is interesting because my parents are more liberal.

Speaker 1: 9:50

They feel excluded from Biden. They were hippie-dippy in the 60s and the 70s but yet they still have these traditional norms in their head. And their main concern for me is will I be happy later down the line? They claim that it's not just that they want grandkids and just to show photos of their grandkids to their friends, but they are saying that they're concerned that I am not going to be happy in the future. Who's going to take care of me? Which is something we can address. But it's an interesting question because when I have offered to take care of them because I'm not having children, they reply no, no, no. We do not want to be a burden. We are planning our life so that you don't have to take care of us.

Speaker 2: 10:34

This is fascinating that that conversation happened the night before or two nights before this podcast. Did you tell them?

Speaker 1: 10:42

I did. After they mentioned that question I said oh, just to reinforce, yeah, because once you go on record.

Speaker 2: 10:49

Once you're on record on podcast there's no going back, this is permanent. I have a retort to that later. But yes, when you say that they're worried about your happiness in the future, did they mention the word regret? Did they blatantly say we think you're going to regret this choice? They?

Speaker 1: 11:05

did because of the sound scientific data that they have one friend who regrets not having children. Now she is in her 70s. Maybe that's true, I'm sure that's true. Perhaps she does regret, but that is one case, and I was reading up yesterday just to prepare for this podcast, and there was a survey that went out that said eight to 17% of parents regret having children. So the regret can go both ways and it's kind of a weird question to ask aren't you going to regret it? What other decision in life do we make where someone says aren't you going to regret that, oh, you're getting an MBA? Are you going to regret that once you have all these payments to make? I've never, definitely never, gotten that.

Speaker 2: 11:49

Can you imagine if, when one of our friends told us that they were pregnant and we were like, oh, are you going to regret that, exactly, no one says that that would be awful? Yup, and this idea of regret is actually something that, not surprisingly, has come up a lot during my interviews and I think ultimately, I've said this before. One of my guests said it so beautifully when she said as part of the human experience, there is no decision that does not involve a little bit of regret. I mean, I would propose, if you choose to have children, there are probably moments where you feel at least some level of regret, and then, if you don't have children, then perhaps there will be also regret if you choose that path. I think this is the first time I've heard someone addressed so directly by these questions. How does it make you feel when you're having these conversations?

Speaker 1: 12:37

It makes me feel a little sad, I suppose because I grew up in this liberal, progressive household where, you know, my mom was the, you know she had it all the feminist, the career woman and the mother. And I was told don't marry a man until you are financially stable, don't even start dating until you're 30. I think that was a joke, but you know. But I grew up with the like you don't need a man, no rush getting married. But all of a sudden, the second I got married, I believe on my wedding night, my parents told my one of my bridesmaids oh, I can't wait until Amanda and we have children. And my friend looked at her in disbelief like what, oh my gosh, where have you been? That is not what's happening.

Speaker 1: 13:20

But the last point on the do you regret this decision? Is I find that that's an interesting question to ask someone in their 30s I'm 36. And it's interesting because I have a lot of friends freezing their eggs and my family asks me why don't you freeze your eggs? You never know. But to that I also say if I regret having children, technically it's never too late. You can always adopt a child, you can always foster a child, which is, you know the foster care system needs a lot of help right now. Or you can volunteer, or I could move in with my sister who wants to have children one day, or I can, you know, as you discussed on Maricela's episode I can hang out with my nieces and nephews, of which I already have three, and be a great partner there and be a great auntie there and help out, because I think it's important for children to have adults in their lives that are not just their parents and no, not to, you know, take them to Disneyland, go shopping, whatever, but it's important to have adults in their lives that are not their parents, to give them a different type of attention.

Speaker 1: 14:27

I was hanging out with a niece recently and the mother, of course, was the one who was packaging up little baggies and making sure she had all her snacks and labeling everything, and I was just on the floor rolling around, being silly, hanging out with her in a way that the parents couldn't at that moment because they were busy parenting. And so now when the little girl sees me, she gets so excited because I equal fun and I equal, you know, someone who just has a different capacity to spend time with her.

Speaker 2: 14:56

One of the people I've spoken to talked about how in the Indian culture there's actually a word for maternal aunts. I'm not saying this only applies to a maternal aunt, but it's a different type of parenting and it's a different type of role model. Just like you said, that actually has a place in that culture, which I thought was really beautiful. I love that, so I think this is a good segue actually to start back a little bit around your journey to choosing not to have children.

Speaker 1: 15:25

Yes, as a child, I really looked up to my working mother and I really wanted to doing air. Quotes here have it all Meaning. I thought that the best recipe for life was balancing a career and balancing a family. And I only started to question this norm of having children when, at 27, you probably remember the story at 27, an ex broke up with me because he claimed that I wanted children and he did not.

Speaker 2: 15:55

I don't remember this. Is this a story you told me, because that must have been right around when we were running around with our heads cut off?

Speaker 1: 16:02

Yes, yes, this was. This breakup occurred a week before I started at working at a nonprofit. You know it helps the educationally underserved children. So that is another funny stigma to break that people who don't have children hate children. That's not true. I've volunteered with many organizations that benefit children. You know I had baby dolls growing up. Kids are rad, cool anywho. But yeah, I started to question this norm when that ex broke up with me because he claims that I wanted children. I was actually surprised that he assumed I wanted kids. But to be fair, out of habit, I'm sure I definitely made some kind of offhanded comment by accident, saying something like oh, if we had kids they would do X, y and Z or our kids would definitely do this.

Speaker 2: 16:50

And he cited that as the reason that he was breaking up with you.

Speaker 1: 16:54

He cited the reason that we were not going to get along was because I did not want children. Well, actually, what really happened was he made me a bowl of chili that was very, very spicy and I said, oh no, remember, I don't like spicy foods. And he was like this isn't going to work. You don't like spicy food, you want children and I don't want children. Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 17:17

So this is the spicy chili that broke the camel's back. Sounds like you dodged a bullet, to be perfectly honest.

Speaker 1: 17:25

Oh, and also like to mention he has a child now.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Oh my God, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 17:31

I can't believe it. Wow, yep, I don't think he regrets this. Well, I don't know, it may have been an accident, who knows? He's happy, but I am grateful because he was the first person I had met who was vocal about not wanting children. So the fact that I met him and dated him was great, because it was the first time I asked myself do I even want kids? And literally the week after the breakup, as I mentioned, I started working at a nonprofit serving educationally underserved children, where I met you and where I met Maricela from the first episode of the podcast. I believe this was 2015. Another interesting thing that happened when I joined in 2015 was that I turned vegan, which you helped me with, by the way.

Speaker 2: 18:16

I forgot about this. Okay, wait, before you go on with your story, I do want to say so. Yes, I was a vegetarian at that point and, amanda, you tried vegetarianism while we were friends. In between, swapping dating stories. You wanted to know about vegetarianism. Basically, you were like convince me to be a vegetarian. For those of you who know me, I am not that kind of vegetarian. I'm sort of like everyone choose your own path. And then, amanda, you went, which I think is a testament to your personality. You were like no, I'm going vegan, I'm going all the way. And I was like I can't follow you on this path. But, yes, continue, you turn vegan. I influence this somehow.

Speaker 1: 18:57

You influenced it because I think you not eating meat so casually made it seem so much easier. Right, role models are very important. It's important to see other people doing something and it just makes it seem like it's easier to accomplish, which is why your podcast is so important, because there's not a lot of famous people out there who talk about this. So being vegan may not seem super related to being child free, but I made both decisions to reduce my impact on the environment and to also better my own health. So being vegan may not seem relevant to being child free, but I made both decisions to reduce my impact on the environment and to better my own physical and mental health.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Eventually I met my now husband, who said he could go either way on having children. He has 10 brothers and sisters who are way younger than him, so he already kind of played the parenting role. So he told me I could go either way. When I told him that I was leaning towards not having children, he was psyched. We then promptly moved out of our apartment, jumped into a van and started traveling around the country. So to me, having it all is not just bouncing a career and a family. To me, having it all means the financial freedom of getting to travel when I want, where I want. So I can work on a beach in Mexico and take a sunset swim afterwards, or I can fly to Denver to meet my good friend's new baby. Or, as I mentioned, I can travel to work and have a fun dinner with you. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Okay, so you made this decision. Was it a conversation you had pre-marriage or post-marriage?

Speaker 1: 20:43

That's a good question. I think the conversation before marriage was that we were both could go either way, so we decided that getting married was okay because neither of us felt really strongly Like. I have a friend right now who's dating a gentleman who definitely does not want to have kids, but she really wants to have kids and so they're deciding if they should get married and they definitely have to be on the same page, whereas my husband and I were both could go either way. Then we got married and we just started and we were leaning towards not having kids when we got married and then we really solidified it, honestly, probably this past year. We really solidified that because, as I mentioned, I am 36. So last year I was 35 and everyone and their mother, pun intended decided to have a baby.

Speaker 1: 21:26

I grew up in Los Angeles, so you know folks tend to have kids a little bit later, so 35 happened to be the year where I think seven people that I knew had a baby and have a baby now, and so I've gotten to meet them all and really test out. Is there something inside of me that is yearning to see and hold a child? Their children are beautiful there's no doubt about that, but there definitely wasn't any feeling in me that I wanted to do that and have that, whereas when I'm walking down the street and I see a puppy, there's something happening where I get excited and I want to pet that dog. But I don't have that with babies and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I just find it interesting that I do know some friends claim to have that feeling.

Speaker 2: 22:07

Really get the waiting for some sort of feeling and almost not feeling it like you're broken, but you're sort of like why am I not feeling this when everyone else is feeling it? So seven of your friends all of a sudden told you that they're pregnant. Do any feelings come up with that, as you see people sort of as I like to say moving down this path that you don't see yourself following on.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yes, when they tell me and for most of them I could kind of predict it was going to happen because I knew that they wanted to have children they were married. We keep up any who. Every time someone tells me that they're pregnant, of course I say congratulations. Yeah, I'm so excited. But there's a little part of me that's just a little bit sad, because I know that our relationship is about to change and it honestly has brought me closer to some of my friends who also are decidedly child-free, I think including you. I have five friends that I know of that are definitely want to be child-free in the future.

Speaker 2: 23:00

That was going to be my next question. That's a lot. I don't have five close friends who are in the child free camp.

Speaker 1: 23:07

It's nice to have those friends. They're spread out, by the way. Well, two of them are in one friend group, two of them are in another friend group, but the rest are spread out. And what is nice about this is that I have someone to send funny child free memes to or send this podcast to. I've sent them your podcast. I think it's great to have this little community, but I think it would be great to have some sort of bigger community out there.

Speaker 2: 23:32

So you and Lee made this decision together. It sounds like your parents, I don't want to say are unsupportive, but they seem to struggle to grasp or accept that it is a decision. Does he face similar pressure from his family, or is it really just one sided?

Speaker 1: 23:49

That is a great question because, whereas my family is very liberal, very progressive, his family is a little bit more conservative. They live in Texas and they are very Catholic. His mother married a gentleman and they had six kids after Lee. So he has a lot of siblings and I think that's honestly the reason why his mother did not mind that we are not having kids. And when he told her that we were not having kids, she just said, okay, great, that's your decision, so be it. I think they're used to him kind of living against the grain, and he and I something that we have in common is that we kind of don't mind being an outsider.

Speaker 1: 24:25

Right, I am a devote atheist vegan. Right, I had blue hair in high school. I am very used to doing things differently. So I think, telling people that I'm child free, there's almost a bit of pride in that, I think, Because I like challenging the norms and yeah, so I don't feel ashamed or anything like that. But I know you asked a question on how do people handle you being child free and I don't know if it's a microaggression or not, but there are definitely a lot of people at work who assume, because I'm married, that I'm going to have a child soon. So I was on a call recently with two coworkers who were talking about their babies or infants and there was a pause and they said oh, Amanda, you don't have to worry about this for a bit. And I get a lot of those kind of comments like oh wow, you're going on vacation.

Speaker 2: 25:15

Enjoy it while it lasts. Have you openly talked to anyone at work about not wanting to have children, or is this just an assumption that they make?

Speaker 1: 25:23

Definitely an assumption that was made. I am pretty sure I've mentioned something about not wanting kids, especially after those comments. But there's a lot going on and I think people just forget and just make assumptions. So I think it's coming from a good place. I'm not offended by it, but I am surprised and entertained by it.

Speaker 2: 25:41

So, while we're talking about work, you said that you willingly take on additional travel because almost everyone on your team has a child. Do you notice any treatment or different expectations of you, given that you don't have children? Whether it's your time, it sounds like travel is fine because you want to do this travel, but I can imagine it's somewhat difficult working in a team who they almost all have children, and so I wasn't sure if you felt that your treatment was different in any way.

Speaker 1: 26:08

That's a good question. I definitely have heard different podcasts and people discussing that topic. I don't think on my team or I've heard anyone talk about that, but I think the only difference between me and the folks on my team that have children is that I just do a bit more traveling. But, as we've discussed, I do not mind that because I really like traveling. So to me I find that to be an advantage because twist my arm to get to go to Chicago and have dinner with my friend Laura. So for me I think that's a plus right and I think there are. I definitely, when I was asking because I wanted to give everyone the opportunity, did not want to assume that especially women did not want to travel just because they had a newborn when I was asking, a lot of them said, oh gosh, I wish that I could travel, I wish I could go to New York, but obviously I have to take care of this human, yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:56

So let's talk about Maple. So you talked about your journey to being child-free, but I want to know how Maple perhaps factors into this decision as well.

Speaker 1: 27:05

Yes, so I never had a dog growing up. When I met my now husband, he sent me a photo of a giant furry animal and I freaked out a little because I'm allergic to dogs. So I thought what am I going to do? Luckily, I was with a friend who identified this fluffy creature as a Labradoral, which many people are not allergic to. Fast forward to today. I am now a proud doggy mama.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Having a dog has definitely helped me appreciate animals and has actually strengthened my reserve to not eat cows and not eat pigs, because those animals are just as sweet as dogs and they're even smarter. Anywho, having a dog has also made me realize I do not want kids. Not sure if you can hear Maple whining in the background, but Maple is amazing, but she is a huge responsibility. This past weekend I tried to take her to a street fair and she was. Although she's eight and a half years old, she was still trying to eat everyone's food and jump on people. I'm about to go to Europe for a month and I found a really great branch to take care of Maple while I'm gone. But can you imagine me telling my friends I sent my newborn to a farm for a month?

Speaker 2: 28:21

So I think Wait a second your parents offer to babysit doesn't extend to their fur grandbabies. How rude, you should have just like slipped that in there, sorry.

Speaker 1: 28:34

I digress. As you can see, Maple is now wanting some pets.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Maple's like mom. Why are you talking shit about me on this podcast? Actually, maple's like farm. Did you say farm?

Speaker 1: 28:46

Yeah, I love her a lot, but it's just, I realize how expensive doggy daycare is and oh, child daycare is a lot, and that's the thing. Just having children is so expensive. And I think there was a time where it was beneficial for us, somewhere between the nomadic tribes and the industrial revolution. It was beneficial to have a child because it was an asset, it could help you make money for your business, whatnot. But now, financially speaking, children are definitely a liability.

Speaker 2: 29:15

I did not help my parents make a scent growing up. Agreed, it is not what it used to be. We don't have a dog yet, so we can even relate to that. But I've heard, I've had, a lot of friends who, honestly, they get a dog and then delay having children because they realize the time and the responsibility and it maybe makes them less eager to have a child right away.

Speaker 1: 29:38

That is interesting and sadly. I've known some folks who have gotten a dog because they want practice having a kid, which is great, I didn't think there's. Obviously having a dog is a bit similar. But I've also heard stories of folks having to send the dog away once the child comes, because the dog people love the shepherds, they love these dogs with high energy, and then they get a child and can't take care of the dog. Okay, where are you going in Europe? My husband has a conference in Portugal so I decided, hey, why don't I join you? So I am meeting him in Lisbon and then we're going to travel to the south of Spain and then we're going to meet back up in Madrid.

Speaker 2: 30:15

Oh my gosh, what dates are you gonna be in Lisbon? I'm flying there in April. Oh, I guess that's really far away.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Yep, this is March. I'm going to be doing my Europe trip and then I'll be traveling again for work, so I'll see you again in Chicago in May, at the end of May.

Speaker 2: 30:29

Yay, okay, we have talked about some misconceptions. Are there any that you in particular struggle with?

Speaker 1: 30:36

Yes, I struggle with. The question that most people ask when they find out that I'm not having a child is, in addition to the what if you regret this decision, which we discussed, they also love to ask the question who is going to take care of you older? This question is wild to me because I would much rather live in a fun retirement community on the beach with trained medical staff on a hand than share a room with a grandchild burdening my kid to take care of me, and I feel that not having kids means that you get to invest more in yourself. Instead of spending probably millions on children, depending how many you have, you can save that money and spend your final years playing bingo with your toes in the sand.

Speaker 1: 31:22

And I've heard on your podcasts some folks have characterized that as being selfish, which is wild to me, because having a child to double your CO2 emissions to me is selfish. Having a child is. It takes so many resources from the community, from the world. This world is overpopulated. I could go on about the environmental, but I will let David Attenborough say it, I believe. In his latest documentary he said the best thing you can do for the planet is to have less children and eat less meat.

Speaker 2: 31:53

So my mom is a rabid rabid recycler, which is great, but sometimes maybe I don't put every piece of plastic in the right bin and she gets very upset and I'm like mom. Let me break it down for you. I have been a vegetarian for well over a decade at this point. I have not had my own car since college and I'm not having children. There is no amount of plastic I could recycle in this lifetime to make up for that. That is always my argument when maybe I don't get the plastic exactly right. That's a very good argument.

Speaker 2: 32:24

I love that and I think going back to the decision not to have children is selfish. The decision to have children is selfless. There's no regret If you have kids. You can always potentially regret it If you don't have kids and I talk about this actually in last week's episode I could argue that both decisions are selfish and selfless. So there are elements of both in each. It just depends on how you look at it, and my podcast is not about pushing people to choose to be child-free, but it's about accepting both to be valid.

Speaker 1: 32:55

And it depends on your morals, your culture, your upbringing. For me I really value the climate. For me, family, traditional roles not as important to me, continuing my lineage not as important to me, but I know for others it is important. But again, I'm not a rule follower. I did not take my husband's last name. Atheist, vegan, whatever. I thrive in this, you know, alternate universe.

Speaker 2: 33:19

I was meant to mention this earlier when you were describing yourself and you love to be the alternative. So I've worked with you, I've been your friend. You're this interesting mix of like type A. So I met Amanda and she was an accountant. She was on our accounting team at this organization and even leading up to this podcast, she was emailing me and she was like, okay, I've prepared these questions and, like, you've done research and you're like, you're so type A and yet you really lean into this alternative lifestyle, which I love. I have a foot in both worlds as well. Like, obviously I'm not traditional in the fact I'm getting married late in life, I'm not having children, I'm not taking my future husband's last name. Then I also, you know, we we both got our business degrees and are in corporate jobs and slightly neurotic and type A. Okay, how do you feel the perception of being child free has changed over time?

Speaker 1: 34:10

I think the perception has changed and I think the need for children has evolved over time as well. So somewhere humans got really into farming and at the time the monogamous nuclear family really made sense. You needed children to work on the farm and help you earn money. They were an asset. But now, financially speaking, children are a bit more of a liability. And then we had the post war 1950s traditional family that glamorized women having the children and taking care of the children. Then we had the second wave feminists who encouraged and normalized women in the workforce.

Speaker 1: 34:49

This was my mom's generation. She was balancing a career and children and so therefore she had it all. But in so many of these circumstances women were still, and are still, in the workforce but also taking care of the children. For instance, in the nineties both my parents had the same exact job, but it was my mom who was taking me shopping. It was my mom taking me to the doctor's appointments and planned Christmas, etc. And then fast forward to today. We finally have celebrities like Chelsea Handler glamorizing a child, free life and her stand up and in her social media. I also don't know if you're familiar with Ruby Warrington. She wrote sober, curious, and she now.

Speaker 2: 35:30

She's on so many podcasts. I would die of happiness to have her on here.

Speaker 1: 35:34

Oh my gosh I should send you. She just did one on someone else's podcast. I don't remember the topic, but she also wrote a book called Women Without Kids. So between Chelsea Handler and Ruby Warrington, this topic is becoming more and more mainstream. But, as I mentioned. But the other day my coworkers were talking about their infants and one mentioned to me. You know, you have a little bit of time before you need to start worrying about this. So I don't know if I would call that a microaggression, but it did just make me feel a little funny. But also entertains, because it's funny that in this day, at age, a millennial is asking another millennial when they're going to have kids.

Speaker 2: 36:07

Basically, the word that comes to mind when people do that to me is invalidated. This coworker may or may not know or remember you saying you don't want to have kids, but when people come back again and again and are like, well, you might change your mind, it invalidates this choice that I have made. That is not easy to live with. I live a very privileged life, but it is a decision that's questioned all the time, and so to have it invalidated over and over again it can be frustrating.

Speaker 1: 36:35

And can you imagine us telling our friends that tell us oh, I'm trying to have kids, I'm doing IVF, and for us to say you know are you sure, really yeah. You're not going to change your mind, you're not going to regret having this. I mean, you can? It would be weird and offensive to ask, and I would be very offensive.

Speaker 2: 36:51

You've mentioned this before. So you live. You grew up in this liberal household where your mom really modeled the non-traditional path to an extent. Have you ever challenged her on that and talked about how it does feel maybe a little bit hypocritical that she said all these things to you and now that she is doubting your decision or questioning your decision?

Speaker 1: 37:11

Yeah, that's interesting. I have mentioned. You raised me in this environment where you, you know you wanted what was best for me, and you also raised me in this environment to be empowered in my decisions and decide who I want to be. And now I've told you I want to be a child, free, fun, loving, cool auntie on the weekends and then dwelling adventure. Loving raise a lady or weird aunt is another term that I'm going to coin.

Speaker 2: 37:40

I have seen wine aunt, which is also a fun one they really lean into the like drunken, wealthy, I love wine. But there's some like yeah, but now it's like this trope where it's a little yeah, is this the life you want forever? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's evolving.

Speaker 1: 37:57

I'm down to, you know, go on cruises when I'm older. I don't know if I'll be wasted the whole time.

Speaker 2: 38:04

I can't be.

Speaker 1: 38:05

No, because because of Ruby Warrington we got to, you know, got to be super curious. But yes, yes, I have called my parents up, maybe not as strongly, but I have definitely put the boundary that says hey, you've talked with me a lot about this. I just wanted to put the boundary out here that I am have decided I do not want to have children. Please stop bringing it up and stop asking about it, and I think it hopefully brings them comfort that my sister does want to have children and she is very excited about that. You know women's experience of giving birth and I think that could be a magical thing to me. It freaks me out. To have my stomach stretched and blood coming out Doesn't have to sound appealing to me the whole pregnancy process, but I can see how it could make one in touch with their womanhood and something witchy about creating a life. I think that's rad, I think that's cool, but not for me.

Speaker 1: 38:54

I have put the boundary out there that I do not want to talk about this yet. It still keeps getting brought up. But we're an open family. We love you know my parents are psychologists we love talking about our feelings and our emotions all the time, so I don't find it super offensive. You know I nag them a ton about certain things, for instance during COVID. You know I've nagged them wear your mask, bloody blah.

Speaker 2: 39:15

So I think I think it goes both ways, and it's interesting that they're a psychiatrist and this continues to be a thing for them. I am intrigued. Yep. Well, amanda, this has been so fun. Honestly, I feel like not a day has passed since we were running around San Francisco. I appreciate you coming on and talking about this, and I'm excited to see you in Chicago. Me, too, I can't wait. I appreciate this so much. Thank you, talk soon, and that is it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, or please consider leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts, and I'll see you next week.