21. Sarah Patel on loving your child but regretting motherhood

Today I sit down with Sarah Patel, a woman who knew she didn't want to have childfren but doubted her choice when no one else around her felt the same way. Sarah is the mother of a thriving 6-year old who she loves deeply, and yet she can clearly recognize that the love for her child does not come with a love of parenting. She and I discuss her journey to choosing to have a child,  the impact of childbearing in an overpoulated world, and the courage to honor one's truth amidst the clamor of cultural expectations. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

there was like an attractiveness to the stability of him when I had unstable in my two previous ones, so it was kind of like, okay, well, I like that, but then you want to have a kid and maybe that's all I get. Maybe that's what it is Like. I don't get anything else in between and I was ready to move forward with wanting to develop a long-term partnership and I just thought that was going to be my only option. Unstable and crazy or stable, not necessarily my type, but a child needed to be involved.

Speaker 2: 0:35

Welcome back everyone to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I'm your host, laura Allen, and today's guest is Sarah Patel. Sarah brings a particularly unique perspective because she is not, in fact, child-free. Similarly to myself and many others who have spoken on this show, sarah grew up knowing that she didn't want to have children. This feeling persisted into adulthood and into her 30s and never went away, even when she met and then married her husband, who was very clear that he did want to have children. And it didn't go away when she became pregnant with her son. And now, several years later, she has a healthy and thriving child who she loves to the absolute ends of the earth but knows that if she were to do it over again, she would listen to her gut and not have children. This is a difficult perspective to grasp because, while it is perfectly acceptable and probably even expected for child-free women like myself to express regret about not having children, it is extremely uncomfortable for us to hear the opposite, to hear a mother talk about how becoming a parent was the wrong choice for her in the end. This conversation was especially powerful for me because I see so much of myself in Sarah. I know that if I were to become a mother, I would love my child. I know that I would work my ass off to show up as the best mother that I could be, and I also know that I would deeply regret losing my child-free identity and that I would not find joy in parenting. And I had the opportunity to sit across from Sarah as she was being so open and vulnerable about her experience and I almost got to see myself reflected back. That was, like I said, incredibly powerful and also a gift. She is offering us a gift with her perspective and her story and, as with all my guests, I ask that you listen with an open mind because it's an important story and one that absolutely deserves a voice. So with that, let's jump in to my conversation with Sarah.

Speaker 2: 3:19

Sarah, welcome to Child Free Me. Thanks for having me. So you are a very special guest, not only because we're doing this in person and those are few and far between but also because you have a child. So you're not, in fact, child free the very first Child Free Me guest not to have a child, but I was really excited to have you on because I think you have a really interesting perspective, first and foremost because you actually thought you wanted to be child-free, or you were going to be child-free, and then, of course, made the decision to have a child. So that is something I am excited to talk about, because it's a different perspective than what we've had. So I would love to start at the beginning. When did you know you didn't want to have children and what was that like?

Speaker 1: 4:06

navigating so I officially declared to my mom when I was 12 that I wasn't going to have children. I never had the desire to, and I think part of that in hindsight, you know, being able to reflect as an adult was I'm the oldest. I am the oldest of three kids. My mom went back to work full time when I was nine and I absorbed a lot of the parenting responsibilities in fourth grade, so I was the one who had to walk my brother and sister to school, make sure I picked them up after school, walk them home, and I was just the sole person responsible for them until my parents both got home from work, and I think I just felt like I did not want that, because I was already so young, having to kind of take on a parent type of a role, and it was.

Speaker 1: 4:50

It was challenging and it I was like I don't want to do this for anybody else, like this sounds terrible, like I want to. Just, I want flexibility, I don't want to do this. So I told my mom when I was 12, I'm never going to have kids. And she was probably like, okay, like she was in seventh grade when did this even come from? This is not even something we've ever discussed. But I never really deviated from that because I never felt differently from that statement, literally ever. I still actually don't, and I'll kind of get to the circumstances around that later but I never had any sort of desire. I feel like you know people are talking about this feeling or you know like your ovaries hurt when you see a cute baby or whatever, and it's like I never had that. I like kids, I think they're fun, they're cool, but I never was like want to do that.

Speaker 1: 5:33

My career was always very important to me. I knew that that always was going to matter to me. That's where I wanted to focus my energy, was my job, and then I also, as I got older, really did want to find a life partner, but that didn't include like having kids with that person. I think part of that, too, was my parents didn't have the greatest marriage. They weren't really meant to be together. They fought a lot. They separated when I was in college, and I think we were a big factor in a lot of that marital stress. And so I was like this sounds terrible, okay, clearly like you have kids and your your marriage dies. And so I was like this sounds terrible, okay, clearly, like you have kids and your marriage dies. And so I think there was a lot of association with kids causing a lot of stress and strain on a relationship. And so I was like I want a partner and I don't want that added stress.

Speaker 1: 6:15

And so I went through my 20s like only just that was the declaration. Now I also didn't think I was going to get married in my 20s either, because it didn't matter, right, like nothing was ticking. I didn't have some sort of like deadline in order to like find a spouse, because I really wasn't worried about what my ovaries were doing. So it didn't matter that I didn't have to get married at a certain age because biologically, like, things are just better when you're younger, so it wasn't really a topic of conversation. And then I dated like very emotionally immature people, so it was never. It never progressed to that level of commitment where we're like we are serious, we're going to talk about next steps, partially because of the person who was my most serious relationship in my 20s. He needed an adult. I would never have had kids with him anyway, because he needed somebody to take care of him was it something you led with or talked about as you were dating and meeting people?

Speaker 2: 7:08

Or did it not come up because you were like this isn't even applicable. I'm in my 20s.

Speaker 1: 7:13

So it was never anything I led with. But there were relationships that I had in my 20s, one in particular I was 26 and the guy was 32. And we were maybe a month into dating and he was like my goals for my relationship are eventually to get married and have kids. And I remember being like I don't want to have kids. So only if it felt like it was moving in that direction or that person opened the door. Now all my friends knew I didn't want to have kids because a lot of my friends were getting married and were kind of doing that.

Speaker 1: 7:41

This relationship I had with this one guy when I was 26,. He was so shocked that I declared this and I was like well, I don't want to. And he's like and I think we've all heard this right Like, but you would make such a good mom, but why it's so selfish to not want to have kids? And then it was like well, if you want this and I don't, then we need to not date anymore, because I also didn't really want to have a future with that person anyway. So it was all of those things, but that was my out actually.

Speaker 2: 8:06

That was my out of the relationship. Good excuse.

Speaker 1: 8:08

Then I ended up dating someone after him who was just emotionally abusive. Basically it was not even anything that ever crossed my mind. And then I went back to grad school. So I was 30 when I went back to grad school. So I was like, well, this is my priority now, but I still never felt like I wanted to have kids. I also ended up doing grad school in a place that's a little bit. It was in North Carolina. So when I got there and I was 30 and unmarried, not divorced, no children didn't belong to a church. They're like who are you and what is wrong with you?

Speaker 2: 8:38

Where in North Carolina, charlotte, okay.

Speaker 1: 8:40

And I'm like am I just the only person on planet Earth who doesn't want this? Is everybody lying? I'm like I can't be the only one, but I never really met anybody else like me in my life up until that point who also didn't want to have kids. That was somebody who was going into a career where they were going to be a caregiver. Basically, I work in health care. I care for people, and I think they were just like well, if you want to care for other humans, why wouldn't you want to care for a kid? I'm like they're not mutually exclusive. It's like you could be a teacher and not want to have kids. Just because you have a job that involves caretaking in some way, it doesn't automatically mean you want to perpetually be a caretaker.

Speaker 2: 9:17

If anything, it might be the opposite. Probably You're like I need a minute.

Speaker 1: 9:20

So I didn't really ever deviate from that. And then I was working in a very intense field and I started dating somebody very casually and he said something to me that stuck in my brain and he was like I think, knowing how you are, you will never be attracted to a man who doesn't want to have kids. And I was so pissed Like I was like super offended by that, because I'm like what does that? Because I'm like what does that mean? Yeah, what does that mean? Does that mean that men who don't want to have children can never be loving or caring or give me the partnership that I'm searching for? The desire to have children doesn't indicate you would do any of those things. Anyway, he's like you seem like you just need a guy who would want to be a father, and he couldn't explain it to me better than that.

Speaker 1: 10:05

But I was mad and and then I moved home. So I you know that I didn't continue that relationship. I moved back to Chicago and I met my husband, or my now husband, about a month into me moving home and he actually within a week, like within our first couple, dates like I am looking to get married. I'm looking for something serious I do want to have kids. And I remember being like shit Cause I did like him and I was like I and I didn't even say this and I'm so mad, but I didn't say I don't. I was just kind of like maybe I'm doing it wrong. I just thought I was just doing it wrong essentially, and I was 33 when I met him.

Speaker 2: 10:50

At that point did you know?

Speaker 1: 10:50

I know you talked about.

Speaker 2: 10:51

There really wasn't anyone else in your life who was choosing this At that point. Did you know anyone? I still didn't know anybody.

Speaker 1: 10:55

I still had nobody that I was. I knew nobody that was like a what that I would consider a close friend who went out of their way to declare that they didn't want to have kids I had. I had friends at that point who were like, if I meet the right person and it happens, then it happens. They still, like wanted it to be a possibility, but I never knew anybody who very much just was like, okay, that that was not going to be part of their path.

Speaker 2: 11:20

Yeah, so it's understandable that you got to this point and were like maybe, like I'm doing it wrong.

Speaker 1: 11:26

Yeah, Literally, I was like I'm like I think I, I think I'm doing, I'm doing it right, but maybe I'm not. Like I'm not. Who am I to say so? I literally let it go. We got more serious and I was like I don't want to have more than one kid and I would do no extraordinary measures to get pregnant. I was like I will not do fertility, I will not do IVF, I'm not going to time my cycles, I'm doing none of this.

Speaker 1: 11:48

This was before you got married. This was when we were engaged. Okay, yeah, and so we weren't officially married, but that's what I said. And he's like that's fine, I would really love to have two kids. I'm like, well, you've never babysat before. So like, why would you want to have two kids, other than you think that's what you should do? I mean, he didn't really have a good answer for that, other than he just always felt like he pictured his life with children. So I was like, well, let's see how one goes and we'll go from there. So we got married and then, at 35, I went off my birth control, because your risk of blood clots goes higher when you're on oral birth control after 35.

Speaker 2: 12:23

And I was like fine, that's good to know. Yeah, so FYI.

Speaker 1: 12:28

We were not preventing pregnancy, but I would not consider what we were doing trying to get pregnant. And when I got pregnant with my son I never felt joy. I had no joy about the whole thing. I didn't enjoy pregnancy at all and my whole family, my, oh, my God, my god, dude. When I told my family, parents, cousins, everybody that I was pregnant, they were like what have you done with sarah? Who is this person? Because they all knew I didn't want it, I come from a pretty large family and everybody was shocked.

Speaker 1: 12:56

They're like that was the last thing we expected. It just seemed so outside of what everybody assumed I would do. And not that they weren't happy, because I'm pretty sure both of my parents definitely would have loved me to have kids. They wanted to be grandparents. They are both very much kid people, but I never felt good about it.

Speaker 2: 13:15

There was an absence of joy. Yes, Would you say. Did you feel any fear or anxiety about it?

Speaker 1: 13:23

Not so much fear of anything medical or the process of pregnancy or my ability to show up. I didn't have anxiety or fear about that because I knew I was going to still do what needed to be done. So my kid wasn't a sociopath. But I never. I just never felt joy about it and I kept waiting to feel joy and I felt like why, why don't I? And I think that was always kind of weird, but I couldn't say that. I felt like I still couldn't say that to anybody, even my husband to this day.

Speaker 1: 13:51

He knew that I wasn't a person who was like I can't wait to be a mom. It wasn't. He knew that. He knew it wasn't like my calling in life to be a parent. But I couldn't even say to him I don't like any of this, because he was so happy and it was just like again, maybe I'm just. Maybe something will show up within me and I'll feel something different. And it never happened. I hated being pregnant. I hated it so much so as soon as I was in it, I was like this is never happening again. We are putting that IUD in the second. We can Like I just knew I would never, ever do it again.

Speaker 2: 14:23

Is that something you talked to your husband about? Oh yeah, okay, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:27

He was very aware of that. I was like I'm not doing this anymore, which you know is. Eventually it became problematic, even though I was like no, like I would tell people, cause then the second I had my son and you know you're thrown into this whole world of like you're responsible for this other person who's helpless, and it's a lot of groundhog day for like a long time and it's really boring. Yeah, there's moments where it's cute, but, like a lot of parenting, especially in the beginning, is super boring and exhausting and exhausting. Well, yeah, and it's exhausting, and I think that's what. I think that's what makes it hard is you're just tired and I worked full-time. I went back to work full-time when my kid was 10 weeks old. Oh my gosh is you're just tired and I worked full time.

Speaker 1: 15:05

I went back to work full time when my kid was 10 weeks old Um, yeah, I mean the United States. So I was working full time, I wasn't sleeping, he was great, he was healthy, he had a good demeanor about him, but I never really I loved him, and at that. So that's a weird thing too. That showed up the love for him. I would murder anybody for, like you couldn't buy, like you will die, like do not hurt my baby, do not make baby sad. So that showed up. The maternal, like mama bear, I will protect you. But the love of being a parent never showed up. Now it's different because he's older, he's six, and it's a lot more fun because he's just like my buddy.

Speaker 2: 15:39

Yeah he's more of a human.

Speaker 1: 15:41

He's a human. Yeah, he's more of a human. He's a human. Yeah, he's got thoughts and it's and he's fun and there's independence there, which I think helps a lot. But I still have no desire to ever have another one, ever, because it's just like. It's also really hard and I think that's for me also why, like, I would never revisit it because I know how my parents were. I know who I connected with more, who I didn't connect with, what I liked, about how my parents were with us, what I didn't like, and it's like how do I make my kid connect with me? How am I the safe parent for him? How do I become the parent that he wants to spend time with as an adult? And so now I'm very much always hyper aware of all those things. Every day Sounds exhausting.

Speaker 1: 16:21

It's very exhausting because you almost have to, because we have so much more information now about the contact needed in kids from zero to seven and how important that is, and I think that's why so many adults have problems was they didn't get kind of a lot of that connection that they needed from their parents when they were little. That's why all these attachment style things exist, I think, with adult relationships and I'm only aware of that because I have a medical background and I read about that kind of stuff and it's important to me. But I'm like how do I make sure you are a functional, happy, healthy adult? I'm going to do everything I can to make sure you are that. But it comes at a sacrifice.

Speaker 1: 16:57

And that's why I think if you know that you don't want to do it, don't do it. If you're, or if you're unsure, don't do it. If you're, or if you're unsure, don't do it, because it is so hard. If you know in yourself that, say it happened on accident, you're somebody who would continue to maintain the pregnancy, unless you know you're somebody that would show up, don't fucking do it, because that kid deserves for you to show up too. So I think like that's my other, that's my other caveat too if you want to be good at it, it's really hard yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:23

I mean one would argue it's one of the hardest jobs in the world, yeah, so when you first got married, yeah, outside of the pressure from your husband to have, yeah, a child, were you experiencing pressure from others? Like it sounds like your family was on board, but was his family. Yeah, pressure well.

Speaker 1: 17:41

so I feel like I think anybody who chooses to be child free gets external pressure, no matter what, right, because it's still for some reason, like such a weird thing. I think it's becoming less of a thing now, thankfully, but sure I mean never from my parents, because they know I'm fine, like they know I make the right decisions for myself, so they don't really doubt that about me. And even my mom's side of the family, you, you know they would probably be disappointed if I were their kid because I'm a little headstrong in that way. But I'm a solid person, like I'm a. I do what I'm supposed to do. I show up on people's phone calls, so no one really ever questioned it from me.

Speaker 1: 18:15

It was more like friends or, honestly, strangers, a lot of strangers like feeling the need to like, have opinions about that. I'm like like, okay, so, but that never pressured me. It was more annoying to feel obligated to provide a response to those people when it's like, why does it matter? I'm not asking you why you do want to have kids. What if I don't have a uterus? What if I have an issue where I can't get pregnant? Like you don't know why is that information you deserve to know you don't, because I don't think it's a casual thing at all and I think people just assume it's like a fine thing to just like literally ask random people. It was more like I was annoyed by those questions but I never felt pressure from anybody in general to do that, because the ones that mattered to me never pressured me to do it was the pressure different once you had your first child?

Speaker 1: 19:02

yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean. And the other thing is my husband is from a very culturally conservative background. Like his parents had an arranged marriage. You're brought up in a household where you do what your parents want you to do. You don't really have like a lot of free thought and he's like the oldest son, so like there comes kind of pressure to uphold certain expectations. You know his side of the family was more kind of like well, one you you can't have one like you can like you very, you very much can. It is a fact, it is. It is okay. Guys like so I I did feel that, but it was funny when people would ask me like so when you have another, I'm like never.

Speaker 1: 19:40

Like I literally like right away, like no, I'm, I'm never doing this again. And then it's always like oh, you'll change your mind and it's like no, no, I wasn't sure the first time and now I really am sure like why I thought that way in the first place. But my husband, actually my son, was two and a half and he brought it up and even though for two and a half years I'm like it just ain't happening, dude, like nothing in my behavior indicates this is happening.

Speaker 1: 20:03

I'm not saying I want this to happen, but he brought it up because it was weird. I liked a picture of one of our friends who announced that they were pregnant with their second child like on Instagram and he was being weird all night and I was like, dude, what's wrong with you? And he's like I don't understand why you could be happy for our friends who are getting pregnant with their second kid when you don't want a second kid. I'm like, well, that makes no sense. Like I can be happy for people for a million reasons that have nothing to do with like what I would want in my life.

Speaker 1: 20:30

So, okay, we had a major fight about that essentially, and I was like potentially a marriage ending fight about that, because I listed all the reasons why I did not want to have a second kid Financial you know my son's healthy at the time, I was 39,.

Speaker 1: 20:46

Second kid financial you know my son's healthy at the time I was 39, you know so older, higher risks of complications.

Speaker 1: 20:49

I was shifting my career and all these other kinds of reasons that I felt were valid. And the last thing I ended with was I was like I was miserable for two years, like I didn't feel like myself for two years and I'm only now now my kid's two and a half starting to feel like a version of myself that I can be comfortable in. And his response to that was like, well, who cares if you're miserable for a couple more years if it means I get a second kid and I'm like, well, the person who exists on planet Earth cares. Like this is not a box to check, dude. And I was still the primary parent for the most part. I was doing all the pickups and drop-offs, all the mental load that comes with parenting like usually is absorbed by the mom for the most part. Like I was still doing all of that, and it was like you have yet to give me any sort of reason to explain why you would want a second one other than you think that's what it should be.

Speaker 2: 21:41

I was going to ask. So you laid out this list of reasons why.

Speaker 1: 21:44

And yeah, and he never listed anything um, no other than he feels his genes should be in the, in the gene pool in society. I'm like that's gross. God, if you would have said that when we first met I would have been like it was nice meeting you. I'm going to go now because I think that's so gross. But I also feel like when men have kids or from my observation it's like almost this weird like lizard brain stuff comes out and they kind of revert back into like a caveman. Caveman, it's really weird. I mean not like in action, but it is kind of almost this like biologic weirdness about it which I just I'm not interested in. It's like kind of gross to me.

Speaker 1: 22:21

So I I said I said to my husband was like well, if you want to have a second kid, it will be with a different person, because I will not be having a second child. And his response was like okay, yeah, that's fine, I guess I just wanted to know for sure that you didn't want to have a second kid. I was like I'm cool, I mean I was sure, but I'm glad we had to say all these other hurt, like hurtful things to get to that answer. I can tell he's resentful because now his brother just had a second kid and my brother since that time had two more children and you know we're here just with the one. He doesn't say anything to me about it, but I can tell he's also disappointed, but it's like there's so many things to unpack there too, but it's just kind of like.

Speaker 1: 23:04

Also, your kids are not meant to be your friends. Your hopes and dreams are not meant to be in your kids. Your kids will not. They are not obligated to grow up and be your caregivers. They're actually not obligated to grow up and do anything for you. But I think, because of how he was raised like he would never consider that that's not how it would be, whereas I had a very different experience with my parents and my siblings than he did. You never know what you're going to get, man. It's never always going to be the exact thing that you think it should be, and I don't like to gamble on people. So I was like no, we have the one, he is healthy, he is good, we are fine. I feel there's no like want for anything and once you have them, you cannot take them back.

Speaker 2: 23:51

And it's like that is not a risk. I am ever willing to gamble again. You mentioned, you know or feel that he has resentment. Do you have resentment, since this isn't necessarily something that you wanted?

Speaker 1: 23:58

Um, no, because it's not on him. No, I don't I, I don't at all. I would have if I had a second kid. I absolutely know I would and I do. I would never want a child to feel that from a parent. Because I felt that like I felt that from my mom. I definitely know we impeded her career path and we messed things up for her and she was pretty vocal about that too. And we're not doing this.

Speaker 1: 24:22

Like I'm, I don't ever want my child to know or feel like he is not wanted or loved. I don't have resentment for my husband for having a second kid. I I'm mad at myself for not going with my gut instinct in those first conversations. So it's it's not. It's not about resenting my son or my husband, it's just me being pissed because it's like you know what, every time you ignore your gut, it's never a good idea. And so that now only solidifies to me that when I do have a gut feeling about something, I don't give two fucks what anybody else thinks about it. We're going with that because I'm not doing that again.

Speaker 2: 25:01

I mean, at that point you didn't have any other examples in your life and I can imagine how difficult it was.

Speaker 1: 25:09

Well, and I and I also had had two kind of serious relationships that didn't work out, where I really was very much invested in it and I was just honestly thinking I was also choosing the wrong partner. I just felt like my radar was off and I wasn't choosing the right person. My husband's personality was also the wrong partner. I just felt like my radar was off and I wasn't choosing the right person. My husband's personality was also is very different from the two people I dated, but in a way where he's also not my type. Like he's smart Cause like I, you know, I and I enjoy the fact that he's a very smart person but he deviated in a lot of ways. But he was. He's very much somebody who and at the time this was helpful to me was very straightforward. There was no games. It was very much like hi, I will see you tomorrow. Like he followed through on things and there was like an attractiveness to the stability of him when I had unstable in my two previous ones.

Speaker 1: 25:58

So it was kind of like okay, well, I like that, but then you want to have a kid and maybe that's all I get. Maybe that's what it is Like. I don't get anything else. In between and I I was ready to move forward with wanting to develop a long-term partnership and I just thought that was going to be my only option. Unstable and crazy or stable, not necessarily my type, but a child needed to be involved or the potential to agree to a child, and I just felt like those were my two choices and I had to compromise. I was like maybe no one just gets everything they want, so that's all it was at that point.

Speaker 2: 26:35

I talk a lot about clubs. There's the child-free club and then there's the mother club.

Speaker 1: 26:39

There's one club I will never be a part of.

Speaker 2: 26:42

I have friends who are currently in my no child club, but they will soon join the other club. There's obviously more shades of gray in that. Has it been difficult to connect with other mothers, or have you found other mothers who feel similarly to you about having children and wanting more, and what's that like?

Speaker 1: 27:00

So my friend group ranges from people who don't have children, people who have multiple children in various stages of ages, people who are in the same boat, have the one and are like like not doing this again. It's not hard for me, because people are allowed to want other things. And if you're, if you're happy in that and that was your choice, I don't care, cause it's like cool, I'm glad. My brother has three kids and he was meant to be a dad. His life would have been completely empty if he was not a father of multiple children. Like he would not want to even have one kid and that's fine, because he shows up, does the thing, he loves it, that's his life. Like I don't want that life, but he does, and so that kind of stuff honestly doesn't bother me, unless those people then put what they want onto you.

Speaker 1: 27:46

I don't have friends like that anymore in my life. I'm old, like I've weeded those people out. So, no, it's more like again the strangers. It's more of the navigating outsiders which will now become a thing, right, because my son is going to make friends at school. I have to talk to these parents and so it's going to be more trying to navigate that with new people, because I'm sure those questions will come up.

Speaker 1: 28:07

It's hard to know who you can say honest things to and who you can't, but I don't currently have problems with that or relating to people in that way. At the end of the day, I would pick my son, but I also don't feel like I have to get rid of me just because I became a parent. Because my son's going to grow up and he's going to have his own interests and he's going to move and he's going to do his thing and I can't make everything about him because I'm going to still need to have my own thing when he's not there. Like I cannot expect him to fulfill every desire I have for myself as like a person on this planet, because that's not fair.

Speaker 1: 28:47

I feel bad for the kids whose parents do that to them. Honestly, that kind of drives me crazy, because it's like that doesn't mean you're a good parent just because your kids are your whole life. You know what I mean. It just means you need something else to occupy your time. I also don't understand the parents who work so much that they never see their kids. So it's this really weird. It's like a very fine line. It's hard to balance. So basically, I exist in a state of like guilt all the time.

Speaker 2: 29:12

Thank you and every other mother.

Speaker 1: 29:14

Yeah'm just like you know you're at work and you miss them, and then you're with them and you, but you're kind of like I need some space, um. So it's just I'm like, does this get better? I don't, I don't know, I think it does. It has. I mean it has gotten better, but it means you sacrifice other things like friendships and spending time and hobbies what are those? Um, something's got to give somewhere. I think people again, people are allowed to want what they want. I I get annoyed when people try to put what they want on other other people, whether it's with anything, honestly, especially kids it's like okay, I don't the end.

Speaker 1: 29:50

That's the end of the discussion. Man, like you do, so awesome yeah like I don't care.

Speaker 2: 29:54

My favorite definition of the word selfish and. I don't know how much that word is factored in to any of these conversations.

Speaker 1: 30:02

Oh, I've heard it plenty.

Speaker 2: 30:03

Yeah, yes, but someone defines selfish as what you're called when you do something that that person doesn't want you to do. Yeah, it's almost like a projection.

Speaker 1: 30:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:17

It's all based on the person who's.

Speaker 1: 30:18

Who's declaring that of you Declaring it which?

Speaker 2: 30:20

that popped into mind when you said that.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Yeah, I mean because I'm sure you have been too right. I feel like anybody who chooses not to have kids, I've certainly been called selfish. I'm like it's actually not. What's selfish is like having kids you don't want, you don't think you're gonna love, that you can't take care of, and then putting them in that circumstance because, like they didn't choose to be here but you brought them here, so you better show up. I think it's way more selfish for people to have like a zillion kids who they can't afford them. It's just like that's not fair to them. That's selfish.

Speaker 1: 30:52

To me, choosing not to have kids and being aware that this is not a route you want to go is extremely unselfish. But, like you said, it's the lens of who's saying it. I am happy to like rebut anyone who has ever said that to me. They don't say it anymore because, again, I'm old and I think they've like given up Anyone who has said that to me and I'm like how, just because I have a uterus doesn't obligate me to anything, and I think that comes also just from, again, historical context of women's roles in society and especially if you're of a religious affiliation, that's definitely a little bit more harped on. I'm like, but why?

Speaker 2: 31:28

Yeah, the woman who I spoke to last week. She is an antinatalist. Are you familiar with what? That is no, so it is a philosophy that it is immoral to bring children into the world because it will cause them suffering. Everyone suffers as a human Sure, and they're brought into the world against their will. It's a strong standpoint and they don't want to propagate it basically yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:53

They're also very pro-adoption, dude I mean I think that's great, I think that's also good too. I I feel like I mean, adoption and fostering kids is so annoying that it's that people don't want to go that route, but it's the same people who also want to force pregnancies too. You can't have it both ways. I mean I wish we were more cognizant of everybody about why are you bringing so many kids into the world, I mean. But also that stems on education and where you grow up and resources and access to those things. And it's like not everybody has that, like people don't even know, like the basics of how this works.

Speaker 1: 32:27

I think if we had the resources across the board accessible to everybody to know how this works, how challenging it is, I think we could prevent a lot of unwanted births. And then you're kind of in a situation where you're not having an excess amount of kids out there who then have to go into the system, because that's heartbreaking. Honestly, any kid sad hurts my bones. Before I became a mom it hurt me, but it hurts me on a deeper level because those kids didn't choose that and it bothers me.

Speaker 2: 32:56

There's something you said that I just want to go back to briefly because I thought it was super interesting. You said that you can very clearly distinguish between this maternal instinct you have towards your child, but also understanding that parenting does not bring you joy. I think that's so interesting because I had someone recently, as in last week, a gentleman who's slightly older than me learned about my podcast, did the oh, you're still young, you'll change your mind, sure, fine, whatever. And then he followed that up with. That's so interesting because you're going against nature. We're all as humans, biologically we're programmed and he's highly educated, sure, very intelligent. Did not grow up in the US, which I'm not sure if that is a factor here. He grew up in South America, but he was like well, it's a biological imperative. So it's interesting that you're making this choice and in the moment I didn't have a good comeback which was very frustrating to me.

Speaker 1: 33:51

That was honestly making me more angry than his comment.

Speaker 2: 33:54

I was more angry at myself for not being able to succinctly be like no, you're wrong.

Speaker 1: 33:58

But then I was like am I wrong?

Speaker 2: 33:59

Like, are we? I mean we're sort of taught where these animals, and like animals, want to procreate.

Speaker 1: 34:05

How far are we from the evolutionary process, though that might've been the circumstance a long time ago, but we also aren't like tilling fields.

Speaker 2: 34:18

Right, I mean, part of me wanted to be like if I put you in a field.

Speaker 1: 34:19

yeah, you know, you can eat a cow, but do you know how to kill and like eat the cow?

Speaker 2: 34:21

then, like I don't know if you have these instincts, that you think you do. So a lot of the women who I speak to, who are child free, they always say I just never had that feeling. But they called a maternal instinct yes, and I actually think that's a bit of a misnomer, because I think maternal instinct is what biologically happens when you have a baby.

Speaker 1: 34:39

Yeah Right, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 34:40

But there's no evidence, as far as I can find, that there is a biological urge to have children. Yeah, there's an urge to have sex, but the baby fever or this feeling of wanting to have children, it's more of a social psychological construct. So, as someone in the healthcare field interested in your thoughts and just, it was so interesting to me that you could distinguish between those two things.

Speaker 1: 35:02

Yeah, I mean, I think obviously we have hormones circulating in our body and like that plays a role in, maybe, certain urges to things, and we have centers of our brain that are involved in regards to that as well, but there's nothing measurable. It's not just like I can take a test and this shows that I have a maternal instinct and this shows that I don't have a maternal instinct, and I think that's why it's so subjective. But you also don't know how the feeling is for anybody else either. I was expecting to feel some more connectivity to it and I never had any sort of element of connection before I had him and then, after I had him, it was very much like I don't know how to describe it other than every emotion I had about anything was much more raw, and I'm sure there's some hormonal element to that. But everything about him impacts me more than if it's my brother or my mom or, like my best friend, if it's him.

Speaker 1: 36:02

I want to fix this immediately. I do not want you sad, I do not want you in pain. How do we stop this? I'm sure there's something that maybe switches in your brain, I don't know, because again, it's like that's not something that, unless you're doing these like MRI studies and you compare a brain pre child and then during pregnancy which you can't do anyway because you're pregnant and then after maybe there's something there that's pathologic that you can track or trace. But I agree with you. I think maternal instinct happens after and it has nothing to do with before and I think the baby fever stuff. It's like you probably already were somebody who wanted to have a kid and then you see a cute baby and what I forgot. There's some phenomenon about baby. Animals are cute and that's why you don't kill them, because they're cute, they're, they're innocent and they're cute. So it's like it endears you to them, even though they're annoying so but it's like that.

Speaker 1: 36:56

There's something there to like. You're just adorable and I want to make sure they are pretty cute they are pretty cute.

Speaker 1: 37:01

Yeah, well, not the beginning. I'm sure there is something there. But this guy's statement again yeah, fine, humans evolved from that and the desire to procreate was so the species wouldn't die. But again, we're so far out, we've evolved for that. Like that's not the problem. The problem is our planet doesn't have enough resources for the people we have on it, and there's like issue with, like, the distribution of where the population is, so there's not gonna be an equal distribution of resources. So why are we burdening our planet more? Because we don't have what it takes to sustain the population we have. If anything, we don't have what it takes to sustain the population we have. If anything, like if you have more than two kids, you're overburdening the system, because if you're just going to replace yourself and the, the father of the child, then fine, do that. But more than that means, then what's the point if you're just replacing the body on the planet?

Speaker 2: 37:50

so I'm doing my job it's an interesting topic that, yeah, you know we could talk about in circles, but it was interesting and helpful for me to hear that those two things were separate.

Speaker 1: 38:02

Yeah, because parenting is a choice. You have to actively choose to parent, but maternal instinct, in my opinion, is not a choice. I can't help but feel that reaction. But how you parent is very much a choice. Well, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 38:16

I really appreciate this. I mean you are so open. I know it can be a difficult and taboo topic to talk about, but I appreciate your vulnerability and coming on sure.

Speaker 1: 38:27

And one thing is it's important to talk about it because I guarantee other people think this way and they just don't feel like they're allowed to think it's like they probably feel bad. So I I think it's important to be honest about that. Like I can love my kid and still know my calling in life wasn't to be a mom. They're not mutually exclusive. You can, you're allowed, to feel those things. It's okay.

Speaker 1: 38:45

I will do everything I can, but I know I wouldn't do it again. Knowing how hard it is, I wouldn't do it again now. The world doesn't work that way. But doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, I'm not gonna do it more and I'm also happy to help people who are on the fence or unsure about their feelings about kids. I'm happy to like offer some insider perspective because you know, because I didn't have that person, so maybe like they don't have a person to talk to about that and I'm not gonna sit here and think you're a terrible human because you have doubts about those things because you're not 100% and it's one of the reasons I've said this a thousand times.

Speaker 2: 39:17

I do this podcast is in the hopes that you know someone similar to you who might think that they're the only one or they're somehow broken, that that's not necessarily the case. There are others. Yeah, for any of the women who are in Chicago and listening to this, do you want to talk about your business and where we are, in case they want to swing?

Speaker 1: 39:37

by Sure. So my name is Sarah Patel. I'm actually a physician assistant. I have been working in aesthetic medicine for almost eight years now, so I'm an injector. My business at the moment it's Opulent Chicago. It's a medical spa in the West Loop neighborhood, so we do services ranging just from like Botox to filler PRP. We do weight loss injections, we do hair transplants for your husbands, we do wellness. So we do hormone optimization as well. So we have a good little setup here. We're on Lake Street. There's actually street parking. I'm actually one of the partners in the business, so I'm here for good. I'm not going to be bopping around to other places. Come and hang out.

Speaker 1: 40:15

Come on down, all right. Well, thank you again.

Speaker 2: 40:18

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. This was so much fun.

Speaker 1: 40:22

And that is it for today.

Speaker 2: 40:29

Thank you so much for joining. If you enjoyed today's podcast, please don't forget to leave a review wherever you get your podcasts, and I will see you next week. Thanks,