22. Anish on taking fate into your own hands

Today I sit down with Anish to discuss his decision to get a vasectomy as a single man at the age of 31. Together we debunk some common myths about the procedure, the factors that went into his decision, and the impact it's had on his life (hint: it's been positive). I'm so honored that Anish was willing to come on the show to talk about this extremely private decision and encourage anyone who might be interested in the procedure to speak with a professional about what it entails. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

As most men I imagine, I was very happy to leave the birth control decision at least the more serious long-term ones to the partner I was with at the time. And as a man I guess you're not really prompted to think too much about birth control and if an accident happens usually it's on the woman. But I think, the more I came to learn and realize just the risks of hormonal birth control and what it does to women, iuds and how painful they could be and some of my female friends have ended up getting one and then having to get them removed for one reason or another it started to make me think is a vasectomy more viable and less risky than some of these other alternatives that women have to go through?

Speaker 1: 0:44

I think the point where it really kicked into gear and sort of made me feel like this is something I need to treat with urgency was when Roe got struck down last year, and it made me feel like, if we happen to live in a country where the right to an abortion is taken away from women, and who knows what could happen to birth control after that, I needed to be able to at least take my fate into my own hands, and if I do call myself child-free, which I have for the longest time, it's time to actually act on those values.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Welcome back everyone to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I am your host, Laura Allen, and today's guest is a gentleman named Anish who, like many of my guests, has known his entire life that he didn't want to have children and recently made the choice to get a vasectomy at the age of 31. Obviously, this is a very, very personal decision and not something that is easy to discuss with someone you barely know, like myself, much less do it very publicly on a podcast. But Anish was not only willing to do it, he very kindly allowed me to ask some very personal questions about his dating life and his family and was really willing to spread the word about the procedure and try to debunk some of the myths that surround it. Now, despite knowing several people in my life who have had vasectomies, I actually knew very, very little about the actual procedure going into this conversation, so I figured it might be fun to dig up some facts about it and share them here. Before we dive into that, just want to give the obvious disclaimer that I am by no means a doctor or in any way a medical practitioner. Everything I'm about to say was found on the internet using a very simple Google search. So if you are contemplating having this procedure, you should absolutely consult an actual doctor, just like Anish did. And if you are wondering what kind of doctor that is, it is actually your urologist. So with that fact number one, vasectomies are almost 100% effective at preventing unplanned pregnancies and, despite it being 2024, it is the only contraceptive other than condoms that is currently available for men to use.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Vasectomies can be reversed. That is the fact. Everyone generally knows about it. I feel like I actually learned that from the episode on the Office when Michael Scott goes snip snap, snip snap, but I think that gives you a pretty good understanding of my general knowledge surrounding vasectomies. Going into this, Regardless, they are reversible, but it's actually a fairly complex surgery to reverse, and pregnancy success rates after a vasectomy are between 30 to 70%. So while the vasectomy itself is a very minor, non-invasive, quick procedure, the reverse is fairly complicated and actually pretty long and expensive. Studies have shown that vasectomies do not put men at greater risk for heart problems, prostate cancer or testicular cancer, While vasectomies are one of the most effective forms of birth control period, a man will technically still be able to get someone pregnant for about 12 weeks after a vasectomy, and that is because this is probably what the fact I should have started with is how a vasectomy works. Is that basically these two tubes called vas deferens?

Speaker 2: 4:39

I'm probably not at all pronouncing those right, and I don't know why I did that in a German accent. But there are these two tubes, and cutting them essentially means that your sperm is prevented from getting to your semen, but it basically takes about 12 weeks for that sperm to clear out, and so you have to use a backup method for the first 12 weeks. Next fact is that approximately half a million men get the procedure each year in the United States. Half a million men get the procedure each year in the United States and, last but not least, my absolutely favorite fact about all of this is that the most popular time to get a vasectomy is around March Madness, because men can then recover while watching the NCAA basketball tournament. Who knew that?

Speaker 2: 5:19

This was going to be an extremely timely episode, since the men's championship game is happening right now. As I record this episode, I hope you enjoyed these very fun facts and truly hope, all jokes aside, that this episode is able to provide a little bit ofish, who is an incredible example of a man who is willing to take on the burden of birth control and who really embodies what it looks like to live by your values and make value-based decisions about your life. It was such an honor to speak with him and to have him share his story so publicly. So with that let's jump in Anish. Welcome to Child Free Me.

Speaker 1: 6:15

Great to be here.

Speaker 2: 6:16

We have many, many women come on the show, and we've had much fewer men, so it is always exciting to have a guest who is willing to come on and share a different perspective than the female one, and I think, in particular, you have a really unique and important story to tell. I am going to start back at the beginning, like I typically do, which is can you tell us when and how you knew that you did not want to have children?

Speaker 1: 6:44

Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me. Great to be here and represent the male perspective on being child free. I guess on some level I always knew deep down that I didn't want to have kids. A little bit like your own story, I think. Growing up, when society was telling me that, oh, you'll understand when you have kids, or when you have kids, blah, blah, blah, I never felt like I could relate to that.

Speaker 1: 7:07

So much so that the first time when I vocalized that I'm never going to have children must have been 13, 14 years old. It wasn't so much me like accepting that I didn't want them, so much so, as vocalizing something that I'd always believed deep down. And yeah, over the years I think people have told me that I changed my mind when I, you know, get a little older. But over time I've only found more reasons to back into that instinct of not really feeling paternal or not wanting to have my own child. I've always got along so great with my nieces and nephews and my friends kids, but somehow it felt like when it comes to me, I just I didn't want that responsibility or pressure or burden, or however you want to describe it. It's, it's always felt like for me, being child free was the way I wanted to live my life.

Speaker 2: 7:55

What were the reactions from the people around you to that statement?

Speaker 1: 7:59

you know, as a 13 year old boy, I grew up in Asia part of it in India, part of it in the Middle East, where just the idea of being child free is not really seen as a viable choice. It's just something maybe children say until the moment is upon them where they just have to go ahead and do what society tells them they have to do, it was always met with a kind of amusement or just friends of parents would give me the side eye and be like oh, you know change your mind.

Speaker 1: 8:28

My own parents didn't take me all too seriously until I got much older and didn't change my mind the way they predicted I would. So, I don't think it was seen as the norm. I think growing up, people assumed it was a phase. But now, when I continue to reiterate, as cousins get married, that no, I don't want to have children, that's not part of my life plan, now it's met with a lot more seriousness. Some people within my family are more accepting than others, but that's to be expected.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Were there any other children or people you were growing up with that were in the same boat?

Speaker 1: 9:05

I think within my circle, I was definitely the first, though I'd like to think that I have paved the way for a few more of my younger cousins to say that they don't want them either and take that blame as the black sheep of the family. But at the time, no, I didn't have anyone to look up to and say, hey, you know what I want to be, just like them. They decided not to have kids, so I almost had to blaze that tray off for myself and, yeah, I wouldn't change a thing.

Speaker 2: 9:31

So you grew up outside of the US and you're now living in the US, in New York. Did you feel a difference at all being child free in Asia and then coming here and being child free in the US? Did the dynamic shift at all or was it still the same level of skepticism?

Speaker 1: 9:49

So I moved to the US a decade ago, would have been about 22 at the time, so I hadn't had the chance to assert my child free status in any serious way when I was still living back home.

Speaker 1: 10:00

But I will say that in the years since I've lived in the US and have gone back to India or Dubai, on my Hinge profile there's an entire prompt dedicated to the fact that I don't want to have kids and that I'm not open to having my mind changed on it.

Speaker 1: 10:17

And in the past three or four years in India I get a lot of responses to specifically just that prompt when I go back to India in a way that I don't in the US, maybe because it's so normalized that people don't, like you know, pick up on it or think to comment on it. But in India I have so many women because that's who my search is, like you know, filtered for comment and say that hey, they've been feeling the same or they're, you know, coming around to maybe the same idea, or it's funny to see a man who is so decided on this. Usually it's women who represent that side of thinking in a place like India. I will say that I'm now noticing that there is a shift in bigger cities in India where being child free is maybe a philosophy that is becoming more popular and these women are engaging with more seriously.

Speaker 2: 11:09

And when people reach out, are they just simply reacting to it? Are they reacting to it and are they interested in meeting you and potentially dating, or are they just trying to react to that status? I guess?

Speaker 1: 11:20

I think 90% of all reactions would be positive. And sure you know they already see that there's some kind of compatibility, because you know they see that I'm child free and maybe they harbor the same feelings, even if they don't put it front and center on their own profiles, like, are you sure Is this how you want to represent yourself on a first impression? Or maybe rubs them the wrong way. But I tend not to think about it too much because people are always going to be incompatible for different reasons and if this is the incompatibility, then it's a pretty big one. So I'm not going to worry too much about what people who want kids are going to be thinking about.

Speaker 2: 12:01

People always have opinions are going to be thinking about. People always have opinions, and only because we went down this dating app route. I previously interviewed one of my colleagues who is child free. She travels around the world and so she is on the app and she has many, many instances of even though she's very clearly on her profile stating I don't want to have children and I'm not open to changing my mind A surprising number of men start to date her and then try to change her mind, as if they think they're the ones who will be the one to compel her to want to have children?

Speaker 2: 12:37

Are you finding that at all? Or, for the most part, are the women you're dating respecting that choice?

Speaker 1: 12:43

Thankfully, that has not been my experience.

Speaker 1: 12:46

I think women generally treat the idea of being child-free with a lot more seriousness and respect than men do, maybe because it's the woman's body that has to go through the process and the pain of actually creating life.

Speaker 1: 13:01

And also at this point, I've had relationships in the past where we've both known that we've been on opposite sides of this issue and just hoping that one or the other of us would change our minds, and that didn't end up being the case and led to a very painful separation. Now I make it a point of only dating women that are either come to the child-free stance on their own or are very open to the idea of not having kids. Like I said, it's on my profile. It usually comes up on the first or second date and if we aren't aligned in that subject, then really there's no future. And all that to say that I don't feel like I struggle because of it at all. I feel like in a city like New York but also in cities past there are a lot of women that do entertain the idea of being child free and it's all about being with the kind of person that wants the same things as you do, and a lot of people do, so it's not something I think too much about.

Speaker 2: 13:55

Having lived in New York City and having also had opportunity to live in San Francisco and now I'm in Chicago, there's a city you want to be in to more easily connect with people who are child free and potentially want to live outside of that standard life plan. I feel like New York is the place, because I moved there right out of undergrad and I didn't think I didn't really label myself as child free really until I hit my 30s, to be honest, and was no longer in New York City and kind of staring at everyone else around me who started to make different decisions. I would love to talk about your decision to have a vasectomy. Is it get a vasectomy or have a vasectomy?

Speaker 1: 14:37

I think you get a vasectomy but not a doctor. I'm going to disclaim that right at the top.

Speaker 2: 14:43

That's true. Okay, I wanted to make sure I was using the right terms, but who knew? So you made the decision to get a vasectomy and so, leading up to this conversation, I was trying to list out all the myths or misconceptions or things that I know just from society and what it's telling me about vasectomies. I obviously I haven't done a lot of research into them, but I think one of the things that popped into my mind is that really the only men I know who have vasectomies are married with two to three kids, and at that point, I have to assume their wife is like it's your turn to do something and that's their path. And so, as someone who is still young and single or dating, can you walk us through? What was that decision like? When did you start thinking about it and then how was the responses from the people in your life?

Speaker 2: 15:32

and the people around you.

Speaker 1: 15:33

Yeah, I guess I knew early on in my life that vasectomies were an option and I really didn't know about what the side effects of the health risks or any of those were mostly because, as most men I imagine, I was very happy to leave the birth control decision at least the more serious long term ones to the partner I was with at the time, and it's as a man. I guess you're not really prompted to think too much about birth control and if, if an accident happens, usually it's it's on the woman. But I think, the more I came to learn and realize just the risks of hormonal birth control and what it does to women, IUDs and how painful they could be and some of my female friends have ended up getting one and then having to get them removed for one reason or another it started to make me think is a vasectomy more viable and less risky than some of these other alternatives that women have to go through? I think the point where it really kicked into gear and sort of made me feel like this is something I need to treat with urgency was when Roe got struck down last year and it made me feel like, if we happen to live in a country where the right to an abortion is taken away from women and who knows what could happen to birth control after that, I needed to be able to at least take my fate into my own hands. And if I do call myself child free, which I have for the longest time it's time to actually act on those values, which is why I immediately made a consultation with my urologist, basically chatted about what the risks are, what it would entail.

Speaker 1: 17:07

I didn't go too far down the internet rabbit hole because you never know, you know what's going to come up.

Speaker 1: 17:11

I figured I'd just talk to my doctor and see what he had to say and explain to me that, at least as far as he's done the procedure, 99% of them have been successful and the side effects are minimal, and that the recovery is basically a week of bed rest, two weeks of heavy exercise. So it seemed like a no brainer. The only thing after I'd like clearly stated my intentions and there was a little bit of back and forth where the doctor was you're only 31, you know, do you really want to do this? And I was like, yeah, I want to do this because I've felt this way for the longest time and I want my breath control options to be in my own hands. And after that that was it. New York State mandates a one month waiting period. Just because of scheduling I had, I ended up waiting a little bit longer. But yeah, I think within that one doctor's visit where I learned what the risks were and what what it entailed, it was decided.

Speaker 2: 18:08

What when you say one month?

Speaker 1: 18:08

waiting period. What does that mean? If I understand correctly, in the state of New York, once you decide that you want to go through with a vasectomy, you have to sign a piece of paper and they make you wait for a month, I guess, to see if you change your mind or anything Interesting. Yeah, it seemed funny but I didn't think too much of it. But I don't know if that's the case in other states in the US. It definitely was over here. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:31

And now, of course, I'm wondering if they do that for vasectomies. I have to assume they do that when women attempt to get some sort of sterilization procedure. But it's worth looking into. I had no idea, I didn't even know that was a thing, so that's so interesting. No idea, I didn't even know that was a thing, so that's so interesting. Well, first of all, what you said about choosing to take on the burden of birth control, I can only imagine that all the women listening to this conversation, like myself, were nodding vigorously. So we appreciate that perspective. I think it is unique and relatively rare. So, going back to your family, who, up until this point, it sounds like we're just waiting for you to change your mind. Is this something that you discussed with them prior to the procedure?

Speaker 1: 19:11

And what sort of reaction did they have To preface this? My Indian family still has certain beliefs about marriage and kids that you might consider traditional, so I knew that it was going to be a hard conversation to have. I told them I planned to have one, without actually telling them the exact date or saying when it was set in stone, and it was a tense conversation. I think they were definitely taken aback because for the first time, it felt like there was a sense of finality to, you know, my decision or choice to be child free, which obviously I think they felt like, oh, there's no coming back from this. But as tense as it was, I had to let them know that I was still going to go through with it. Obviously, I couldn't tell them exactly when, because I didn't want the guilt trip close to a procedure. I just let them know that it was happening, that I wasn't changing my mind and that I hope they would respect my decision.

Speaker 1: 20:01

And enough time has passed that we have somewhat normalized our relationship. So I'd have to imagine that, even though they're not very happy with it, that they have accepted the fact that I've gone through with it.

Speaker 2: 20:11

So that's as much as you can ask for, really. Yeah, what has it felt like emotionally since the procedure? Has there been a change Like? Have you felt relief? Was there any sort of surprising reaction that you had in terms of how you feel towards this decision? I think?

Speaker 1: 20:27

the two days after I got it was probably the most painful and the time I suffered the most, but in the time since, it's just really reinforced this idea that I'm living my values, and that relief is definitely a part of it, as is just this weight being lifted off my shoulders. About anything can happen. There's always a risk, but now I don't know it. Just it just feels like I'm not just dating with more intention, but also living with a little more intention, which feels nice, because it's one thing to say that you're child free. It's another thing to demonstrate even if it is to yourself that you are. So I personally feel great, and if there's any men listening to this who are also child-free, or women, tell your husbands, boyfriends, partners about child-free men in your life that if you are serious about it, then it's a no-brainer really.

Speaker 2: 21:18

Back to my original comment about myths and misconceptions. Are there any that you think?

Speaker 1: 21:37

are important to debunk about the procedure for people who are considering it. You know, does it feel the same as before? It's funny, but I guess you have to treat all of these as really valid questions and my answer, just from my own experience, is that everything is the same. Everything feels the same. In fact, it might even feel better because you don't have that stress of oh shit, what if? So, in my own personal experience, I think my sexual satisfaction has just like skyrocketed. And I think, in terms of myths, I just heard everything from oh you know, people live with this pain for years, to what if this causes prostate cancer. To my and my doctor's knowledge, none of these are true, and it hasn't been true in my experience, at least so far. So yeah, I can dispel those myths right off the bat.

Speaker 2: 22:33

I had never even heard any of these things Probably. And again, I have a lot of men in my life who have vasectomies and it's not like I talk to them about it and they're all married and they all have children. So I guess in my mind I would have heard something about any of those things or concerns prior. But it would be interesting to compare your experience, the questions you got, the pushback from the doctor versus someone who has three children and was going in for a vasectomy. I'm assuming they also need a waiting period if it's a state mandate, but I just it would be interesting to compare those two journeys. Yeah, I have no idea.

Speaker 1: 23:13

I think you can definitely compare experiences of fathers with men who have no kids. And, you know, maybe a doctor is more sympathetic to a man who has already had kids and, you know, maybe doesn't want to have any more. But even as a single man in his early 30s I didn't get nearly as much pushback as, say, women do when they want to. You know, go through a similar procedure and maybe that is just the privilege of being a man in our healthcare system. But I just had to very firmly reiterate that this is what I wanted and this was my choice. And the state waiting period is the state waiting period.

Speaker 1: 23:49

You can't really do anything about it, but from the medical professional, who was fantastic and very understanding and totally on board. He just wanted to make sure that I thought this through and wasn't burning any bridges and doing this in a fit of impatience or whatever.

Speaker 2: 24:05

But yeah, I don't know a fit of impatience or whatever. But yeah, I want to go back to something you said, because it made a light bulb go off in my head when you said there's less stress and, I guess, anxiety about what happens if something unplanned takes place. Been in heteronormative relationships, I have taken on the burden of birth control and it's very easy to not feel victimized but feel frustrated that it has to fall on me. But at the same time the control is also with me and I like control and honestly, when I think of it from that perspective, I'm like, oh, I might have the upper hand here because it is within my control as a female for the most part. So I don't think I've ever thought of it that way.

Speaker 2: 24:51

You saying that sort of I guess makes me more appreciative somewhat of the fact that I don't have to cede that to someone else. I can always be the one to ensure my path and in that light, you know, this decision to have a vasectomy makes a ton of sense. On your profiles, your dating profiles, you say you don't want to have children. I'm assuming you don't put you've had a vasectomy. Does it come up at all as you're meeting women and talking to them in the early stages, Like, at what point do you bring it up? If you're okay talking about that?

Speaker 1: 25:20

Yeah, no, I definitely don't put it on my dating profile just because it feels like maybe trying to share too much information with strangers the scarlet v. Yeah, well, you know um, maybe I should get a t-shirt that says you know but, oh my gosh, you should I'm I'm very forthcoming about it when I've already been on a couple of dates.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Definitely, before I'm intimate with someone, usually I let them know, not as a way of not using contraception, but just as a way of letting them know that this is a thing that has happened and because, at this point we've already talked about being child free and just as a way to indicate that this this is how serious I am- about it so, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1: 25:59

it's something that comes up a lot and I've gotten better at talking about it and sharing and at least I find that it puts my partners at ease because, again, you know, it's not just one person's burden and responsibility to ensure that the birth control is working, so that a little bit of that shared load definitely, I think, helps everyone more.

Speaker 2: 26:19

Have you had any surprising reactions to sharing that with someone?

Speaker 1: 26:23

I think pleasant surprise is the usual one that I get. But no nothing negative or anything that startled me, for sure.

Speaker 2: 26:34

And this is my last question about this You've been so nice and vulnerable about talking about a very private decision, so of course I appreciate it. Do you know anyone else who has also gotten a vasectomy, who's in your similar position, and is it something you're able to talk about with a close support group?

Speaker 1: 26:51

I have to say that I have just the most wonderful group of friends around me. They both helped me before, during and after the procedure. One of my closest friends actually came with me to the doctor's office and made sure I got back home. I feel like I have a good mix of friends, some of whom are also child-free, some of whom are not and want to live a more socially accepted lifestyle. Calling it traditional would be wrong and, to my knowledge, within my closest group of friends, I am the only one who has gone through and had a vasectomy, as far as I'm aware. But I think I've started having more conversations with my guy friends about it, maybe dispelling some myths, making them comfortable with the idea that you can go ahead and get it done, and since then I feel like people have felt more comfortable talking to me about, like you know maybe, their idea.

Speaker 1: 27:40

I have a friend in India who you know went ahead and see if he could get one. I have friends here who are talking about getting it, some of whom may want to you know, freeze their sperm before they go ahead with it. A really good friend of mine who has kids and plans to have more is talking about okay, I'm going to have two kids and then I'm going to go get a vasectomy because you know I want to make sure it's also within my control. So I definitely think it's kicked off a conversation amongst my friends, and you know they're more open and willing to come forth and have these conversations with me, which not easy by any means, but I'm glad to you know sharing that with them yeah, I think.

Speaker 2: 28:15

Have you heard of the term bingo or bingoing people who are child-free?

Speaker 1: 28:20

I think I've heard of it online.

Speaker 2: 28:22

I don't know that I could tell you exactly what it means so it's basically and I don't know if it don know if the term bingoing only applies to people who are child free, but it's basically there's a set of nine things that every child free person will encounter either within a conversation or across their lifetime, which is you'll regret this. What are you going to do when you're older?

Speaker 2: 28:44

You're so selfish, like the typical reactions that you get to people who are not open to this lifestyle choice. Is there any one of those in particular that you particularly get frustrated with or that you think you've encountered the most during this journey?

Speaker 1: 29:00

I've gotten some version of all of what you've laid out. I think, yeah, my parents like to say who's going to take care of you when you're older? And I like to point out in a funny way, not in a mean way at all who's going to take care of them when they're older?

Speaker 1: 29:13

Because I live halfway around the world.

Speaker 1: 29:15

I think the whole idea that you need to have children so that someone is there to take care of you in your old age is just that's the selfish idea, and I feel like anyone who has children.

Speaker 1: 29:24

That's the selfish idea, and I feel like anyone who has children who is less than 100% sure about that decision and maybe I'm being harsh because I am child free, but I hope parents can also like sympathize with. What I'm trying to get at is that you really shouldn't be having kids if you are not absolutely sure that you want them, because I feel like children pick up on that. If you feel like having children was never presented as a choice and you just went along with it because that's what you're supposed to do, I feel like children pick up on that energy from their parents and that just sets them up to be somewhat traumatized by that kind of parenting. So I guess I've always shrugged off all of the bingoing because even if I am called selfish, I say yeah, so what? I'm not taking away anything from a life that has not come into existence yet.

Speaker 1: 30:11

The life that is in existence is mine, and if I want to direct it in a certain way, then yeah, okay, you know what? I am selfish because I need to take care of myself before I can take care of anyone or anything else, so I usually try and own that, and usually there's some hole in the argument that people who are really advocating for you to have kids to point out that they haven't considered.

Speaker 2: 30:35

I feel like I've been vocal enough about being child free for so long now in my life that I've just gotten good at responding to those situations or just gotten really good at not caring yeah, I think it's that last part that you sort of just have to, and if I do have a reaction, then I try to self-reflect on like okay, why, why is this creating such a reaction to me? Is it because I'm not confident in my decision? What is the deeper? Because if I'm having some sort of outsized reaction, then I likely has something to do with me, just like if the person who is questioning me and if there happened to be getting upset, then it's probably something that has to do with them as well. So I think there is like anything self-reflection that has to go into it and the reactions that I have.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Yeah, I feel like being child free not being child free. They're both incredibly personal decisions that you can make for someone else. I think you just have to know deep down what it is that you want.

Speaker 1: 31:30

I would never demonize a person for their choice to have kids and at the end of the day, I just ask for that same kind of respect to me and my decision to not have kids as well. So I don't think we are on opposite sides of an issue as much as opposite sides of a choice, and I think we just need to respect each other's choices. Yeah acceptance.

Speaker 2: 31:50

That's the point of view on this, although there are many people who are child-free, people who argue, and, if you've been on the subreddit threads, there are many who really believe people should not be having children, so it sort of spans the gamut. Well, I'm so grateful again. I think I've said this a thousand times. I know it's never easy to come on and talk about very, very personal decisions publicly, but it's an important conversation. I appreciate just all the facts you shared. I honestly didn't know a lot of this and one of the questions I wrote down was how did you educate yourself on this procedure? And you immediately were like so I talked to my doctor and I was like duh, of course, I think it's an important conversation and I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 32:33

Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for having a podcast where people like us have a place to share our choice to be child-free and fight back against the social script. So yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 32:47

And that is it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, or please consider leaving a review wherever you get your podcasts, and I'll see you next week.