Equity Unveiled:The importance of Culturally Responsive Leadership

In today's episode Dr. Tami is talking with Dr. Gabrielle Wallace.  Gabrielle is an education coach and doctoral candidate .   Dr. Tami and Dr. Gabrielle discuss her research on culturally responsive leadership and how essential leadership is to building an equitable learning environment.   Dr. Tami and Dr. Gabrielle explore the importance of critical self-reflection leads to organizational change.  Explore with them as the discuss how mindset and its connection to expressed behaviors. 

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Discovery Call

Transcript

 

Hello . Welcome to the Dragonfly Rising Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Tami Dean, and I am here today with Gabrielle Wallace. 



How are you ?

I am doing well.  You.

Awesome. Awesome. Well  Gabrielle and I had worked together prior  to having this conversation today on this podcast, but I really wanna give her a chance to kind of introduce herself, talk a little bit about her equity journey and like where she is, is today, and then we'll kind of dive into some amazing things that she's doing. 

Thank you.   So for work by trade, I am an executive coach and I do talent development for educators.  I also do work with nonprofit organizations in mobilizing the local community to become their own researchers and validate their research with their own community.  There's a lot of history behind that, so keep moving.

And I'm also a doctoral candidate at Baylor University  studying racial equity in education. And so my journey began.  I was a child, honestly, with equity  I come from three generations of entrepreneurs, black entrepreneurs  in the south. And so that alone has a lot of history and context to it, and their goal was always to bring quality, resources and services.

Two historically marginalized communities. And so I sat in their businesses after school as a little girl listening to the stories of my community and being poured into by my community. And so that really gave me a lot of cultural wealth, having aspirations, having dreams  just and having the social knowledge of like, how do you navigate this big old world?

And so, That really pushed me into  my undergrad journey in finding a university that was actually  dedicated to diversity at the time. And my first day of school, my first orientation was centered around   at that time it was bigger around tolerance, but also just how do you meet and talk to people from these different backgrounds.

Because at the time it was  one of the most diverse schools.  In the country. And so that led to a lot of interesting journeys in itself  which propelled me into  my career as a teacher and as a teacher. I got to be part of all of these cool different programs  such as like restorative practices and using those things with my students. 

Really taking to it.  You know, at the time I always joke with people that I didn't know they were teaching us at the time to be culturally responsive teachers.  But that's what they were teaching us to do. So to me that was the  the norm. Of talking to your students, getting to know them, and incorporating all those parts of self into the lesson and making sure that it was relatable  because we are talking to students who did not typically have a lot of enrichment outside of school.

 And making that just as relevant and just as  rigorous for them during the school day was important.  And then finally,  Not finally, but the next part of that journey.  You know, I got my master's degree and my master's program really  was big on us talking to leaders. So it wasn't  you know, of course we had papers and things like that, but it was very much so you go find a leader in education.

And you interview them and ask them questions about what it's really like to walk in their shoes and the problems that they're really dealing with in the ways that they're trying to address those problems.  And so that experience, you know, you would talk to not just the principal, but also like the C F O right?

Or the school psychiatrist. And so I.  To see all the connections between how, why do we do all these different parts of school, right? Because sometimes people think we're just. Teaching.  Right? And that's the kids come in and we're just teaching. And there's so much, when you're dealing with hu little humans, that happens before I can actually teach you, right?

I have to make sure you're taken care of. I have to make sure  that you have everything that you need. Do you have the skills to communicate what you need? And so there's all these people.  Working with it. And we had the funding for all of these things.  And so that was great preparation for me becoming  an administrator and eventually a principal.

 And my school was a school that was third yard, third year improvement required. So for anybody who doesn't know what that means, we essentially had a f rating  three years in a row. And that's a critical point. Meaning the state is in your building and seeing what is happening and why, you know, why is the school failing?

 And so, and that was my first experience and I did not pursue the principalship. I was asked to come and do that work.  And so  it was a lot to take on. And so, but our superintendent at the time was very big on not letting things go. 'cause typically  If people don't know if you have a failing school, a lot of those enrichment, enriching learning experiences are taken away. 

And so it becomes

those exciting pieces of the learning, you know? Yeah.

right, the things that you're, you know, kids always ask, well, how am I gonna take this into my real life? So there are things that really they take into their real life, which all of it you do, but that they can see that's tangible to them is typically taken away.  And so our superintendent was very adamant for us not to do that. 

We had to continue to have restorative practices  project-based learning before it was popular.  Blended learning before it was popular, keeping those extracurricular. And then we would have community members come in  every week to talk to our students every week they were dealing with the community and taking time to have those experiences.

And so  by the end of that year, though, we were no longer improvement required.  We  had raised our scores without lowering the learning experience. And so  today I just really work with others. To do that same work, whether it's in a school or with a nonprofit. And so  and I've, I've really wanted to become  a researcher and have the best practices when I was working with others because a lot of those things I just stumbled through.

I just figured them out when as I was doing them, they were put on my table and I just figured it out. I didn't really have  a solid foundation or learning behind the concepts of what I was doing, so that's my journey.

Wow, that's, that's an amazing journey. I wanna come back to a couple things you said. First of all, I. I feel like the thread and the theme of community, right, which I think is important to all equity and social justice work, right? Like within the larger community, within the smaller community, within the classroom community, with your professional community.

Like it's all about relationship.  And you,  you mentioned we're not just teaching, right. And they're little humans and, and like, this speaks to my heart because I, you know, used to be a, a professor and all this. I was like, the people, they're, they're just smaller humans. They're humans. So they have feelings, they have emotions, they have life.

All these things that are happening to them, just like it happens to us. And the things that we as adults enjoy and want, like autonomy and to be heard and to be seen. So do these. Young people that we're engaging with in our classroom. So I wanna go back, 'cause you mentioned your family history, which is so powerful and amazing and how involved they were with the community and like that, or organic connection and thinking about that purposeful connection.

So, I'm not sure what they did, but How did you get into Ed? Like why a teacher? Like what led you to be like, you know what, I wanna do this type of thing that I'm seeing and being a part of as a young person, and I wanna take that into the field of education. Like were they educators or were they not? I'm not sure.

No, I am breaking out of the family business by not being  so  

You are a Pioneer Okay. Okay. 

yeah, and I actually didn't know, per se, any educators before I entered the field. You know, of course I have no people along the way, but I didn't have a relationship.     It was a complete accident.  But I like to, 

Hey, that's okay. That's okay. 

I like to joke that  both my parents are teachers, even though they're by Trey, they're  in insurance. They do home and auto insurance.   And so did my grandfather. And so   They, but they would teach people things like, for example  you know, 20, 30 years ago in the community that we, they had set up their business in   certain insurance companies would not come into those neighborhoods to do business.

  For many reasons. And my mom was able, and my dad were able to get  a very good contract with what they call standard insurance. And my mom would teach her customers like, Hey, if you keep your insurance up for six months, then you can get this discount. You can qualify for these other things. And so I would watch her really have those conversations with people about  the importance of this everyday resource in their life.

And so  but they wouldn't just talk to her  or my dad about insurance. They would start to come to my parents about all their life things.

Yes.

So,  so that's how I got to sit there and just kind of sit to the side and listen that and my family   the rite of passage is you helping in the business, right?

So I was a little changed girl. I was passing out the change to people to give them money back.   So I got to be the fly on the wall while I was doing those things, but,  I got specifically into education when I went to college because my major  was in advertising, but I minored in human development and family studies.

Mm-hmm.

And  through that I got to take education courses and I got almost to the end of my degree and I said, oh my God, this is what I wanna do with my life. On top of, I was volunteering with children and at  and becoming a tutor in these state when I was seeing  how, you know, some of my students were struggling with reading.

And   again, I have a whole, that's a whole nother podcast of my family history on the struggles with education. But  I, it really struck my heart. 

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

And so   so from there I talked to a professor and I was like, well, how do I do education policy? Right? And so that was my journey. I.  Do education policy, but I realized when I did my research, a lot of people who make policy decisions around education have never been educators  or have no ties to a school system.

Yes, that is yes, and still true today. Mm-hmm.

Still true, still true. And so I wanted to be different. 

Yes.

go through that  process.  What is it like to be in the schools? And I can tell you it does make a complete difference because you think, because you've been a student that you understand education and that is not really true. Right?  It's almost as meticulous to me as the medical field.

Right.  Absolutely. 

but unfortunately  you know,  you can have a nurse. A nurse has to know how to do an IV before they walk into.  You know, their, their work setting.  However, sometimes today you could have a teacher walk into a classroom and they haven't had any exposure to just those foundational practices to walk in.

And so I think we're seeing a lot of that today.   And it's not, that's not, but to me, that's not on the teacher.  Right. That's on. The institutions that are supposed to prepare a teacher and the institutions that are supposed to be, not just evaluating the teacher, but supporting them.  And so that's also how I got into focusing on leadership and policy.

 More the everyday practice now.

Yeah. And I would even say how the, the devaluing that's been happening of

Mm-hmm. 

preparation. Right. You know, I have a history. I was in a a, a.  Teacher education professor, preparing future teachers. And I've just seen that shift and we've had a lot of  alternative ways for people to come to become teachers, which is amazing when people, you know, find and discover if that's what they wanna do.

And also though,  how do we support coming back to what you said, right? If we do have those people, how do we support and engage and teach them? With that background knowledge about what it is really to be a teacher that isn't grounded in their experience, right. Of being a student. Because what happens is  we just end up recycling.  Oftentimes,  we are not best practices for engaging students, especially traditionally marginalized students because,  you know,  Historically speaking,  teachers haven't  or weren't prepared on how to build that community in that way. So I also think it's really powerful that you had those experiences  and you'd be like, oh, I didn't even realize this.

But I, I think that's something to think about. And I, I would love people to think about and reflect. Like, I think sometimes people think culturally responsive teaching or equity and edu like it's this big thing, or it needs to have this big.  Label or process. And it is, but there's also ways that sometimes  you're being taught things and just because they didn't  label it, that doesn't mean that's not  what you're doing.  Right. Like they're looking for this magic. I did X and now I am doing Y. Right? Like now I am a culturally responsive educator, whereas if you listen to your journey, and  for those of you that have listened to my journey, right, and even now it's, it's a process and it's a continual process. Like  I'm 25 years in and I still.

Learn from other people and engage with other people. And because that learning just never ends to me. I don't, I don't know what you, how do you, what do you think, I mean, I feel like you feel that way. Does you, you know, you don't go in a doctorate program  thinking that there's not more to learn and what of research, right?

Like there's that, like, tell me all the things.

Oh my gosh,  yes.  I think that's part of my, my professor's like, she's like, well, this is your life's work, so let's.  Let's figure out what we can do right now. And I think that's a good thing for other people too. Like you just said  you think that you're gonna arrive to this place and say, okay, I did it.

I've done it. But it's life's work, right? Like I think  a lot of us have heard that term in education that if you're an educator, you are a lifelong learner. Well, this is like the intersection of your personal and professional journey.  Like you said.  Social and  skills in that, emotional intelligence in.

And so that's the other piece of the work  that people kind of shy away from because  personal, because when you show up for children, you show up, meaning all of you, not just your best parts, right? It means.  Some of those biases, or even if we take out those words, we can say, just think about your family interactions in the home, right?  How do you have conversations? What's the cadence of those conversations? What's the tone of those conversations? What's the why behind those conversations? Those same things are going to show up when you talk to children because children just bring that out, 

Right.

 And where other adults are, almost like other little co-parents, right?  We are talking about our kids in this space now. Any sort of kids that belong to the community  because when they grow up, they are, you know, I'm starting to run into my former students, right? I'm going to get my registration for my car, and that is my former student 

I know

handling my business. 

You know, that is, I think that's a milestone in every educator's journey, right? You run into those four, you're like, oh my gosh, you were 12 in my classroom, or you were five, or whatever the age is, and you're like, wow. It's, it's always so exciting. I, I think to, to run into,  Those students in random, and even, even, to be honest, my college students, right?

Like still  mm-hmm. Like, it's just   that's the humanity of education. And I think that's really important what you said, like you  need to bring your humanity with you and, and it's okay to have it and.  We are, we we're, we are people, we are educators, but we're also  people.  So, and  that's definitely been a theme we've been exploring or we'll be exploring  in in the podcast.

It keeps coming up time and time again, so that's super exciting. I, I, I'm, I'm gonna jump in, I wanna jump into your dissertation research, but I do wanna laugh and tell you we're like two birds of a feather because my. Dissertation committee and my chair, and they're like, Tammy, you only have to write one dissertation.  Like,  but I think that's  the excitement and the passion around the work. So I, I feel your passion. That's what me saying I feel and understand your passion because you're like, let me find out all the things and like you have a lifetime to explore all of these things. So   your research is very exciting.

It's digging in right to  leadership, how leadership thinks about  engages with  cultural responsive leadership,  right? And coming back to that policy, right? And who and how do we have influence on policy and so,  to me it comes back to that voice. So tell me a little bit about what you're exploring and a little bit of the why behind why you decided to explore it. I think we've, we've touched a little bit on the why that's led you here, but  if there's something we missed  let, let's, let's talk about that. 

Yeah. Well, I think like I'm learning on most people  with their dissertation work. We have a student in mind or a student or two   that let us here.    And for me it was  again, after that first year as a principal  I did start to look at the systemic issues, right? Because   but a lot of our work was centered around the adult culture.

So let me break it up into two parts. The adult culture of how do we come together as adults, get on one accord and decide that this is the direction we wanna go.  And then how do we.  Transfer that onto our students and create change for them. Right.  And so  that ties into my dissertation because I am looking at it from a systemic point of view.   Because culturally responsive leadership, It's not new. It's been on a, on a table for a while.  I was introduced to it through the work of Dr. Mohammad Khalifa  and  of course  lots of other scholars.  But that was my first introduction to the work. And so   the piece of it I went looked at when I was looking at the work though, was a lot of it was talking about one school or one place.

 And what we see now is most of our students  are now historically marginalized so my question is, well, if that's most of our students, how do we expand this work if this is the thing that they need, if this is the antidote, and then we always talk about the institutionalized things we have to fight, right?

Or the institutionalized things we have to.   And I saw that a lot in the work  as a school leader  and how crushing that can be.  Looking at, are we ready?  Do we want to take on this work    as school leaders, right?  I can say we should do this all day long, but if people aren't ready, if people don't wanna take on the work  then again, that's going to be another crushing experience. And so to, it's also about identifying those people.

And again, the hopeful outcome of this is that it will create a,  for where we can build that community as leaders that wanna take on this work.  I think there was another part of your question, but that's,  that's the initial phase.

No, no, I think you, I think you, I think you touched on that all. So you have put together a survey that you've sent out to leaders   and asking them questions regarding  their experience, their thoughts,  their  reflections   and you're focused in urban. Areas, right? That that correct?

Right. Okay.  Right. And so the focus for urban schools    not to count out rural schools. I've worked in rural settings.  Just statistically alone though, most of our black and brown students  economically disadvantaged students are, have really populated. 

Mm-hmm.

Areas.  And so we, I just wanted to start there.

 The work can't expand, but we're just starting with urban schools, and again, the frameworks are  coming out of research done in urban schools, so keeping that alignment.

Yeah. No, that makes sense. And again, back to the, you can only write one dissertation. 





Okay. The survey. Yeah, the survey was created.  Again, this was another happy accident.   We love those. 

my wonderful chair, as I've mentioned her several times, her name is Dr. Angela Uric  and she's currently at Baylor University.  She walked up to several leaders in this space. Asked them like, Hey, is there a quantitative survey for this? 

I sent emails out and reached out and so many people said, no, there's not. 'cause this is a largely qualitative  field,  and it's very difficult to put together in survey form people's emotions, people's  experiences people's  in, in the intersection of all of that dealing with like race.  And  matters of race, racism and all, all the other things. And so   well I had already committed to it, so I said, I guess I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna try it. 

Right. No. You know what? And that's one of the first things I noticed  looking at what you're doing was that it was quantitative, right? And  how.  Powerful to have a quantitative tool to like, I, you know, you know, I'm a qualitative research researcher at heart, but I do think there is value in bringing together in a mixed method way, right?

So how powerful to  that you're exploring that  with your quantitative survey and your quantitative analysis. 

Thank you. And that, and that was the purpose. It was not to, to say, I know there's a whole thing about ranking it, but that was not the point. The point was let's paint a picture. Let's paint a whole picture together.   And so  my survey is marrying different concepts. It's marrying that culturally responsive leadership with an emphasis on domain one, critical self-reflection.

Mm-hmm. 

Then taking those and marrying them to our  leadership capacity building models like leadership development, organizational health, which deals with  how are we transferring knowledge to other leaders? And then organizational readiness. So is the district ready to support leaders and make this the institutionalized practice over  things that have not been asset based. 

And so   it's all based on their self, the school leader's self reception. So it's principals, assistant principals, and I've included instructional coaches.  We don't have a lot of research right now on the experiences of assistant principals and instructional coaches. And if you, in a school setting, you know how vital those roles are   to everyday functioning in supporting of the teacher.

Absolutely.  The, I'm just thinking about the  right. The assistant principal gets left out of all the things, even though they're really like the   one who's engaging the most, right? With the ins and outs of certain components of a school. But then the coaches, right? They have that direct  relationship  with teachers that has an opportunity to affect the relationship.

You know what I mean? That then,  down, like  the tone is set. Right. So this is the, this is where I kind of like this, right? Is the district ready? Is the school ready? Like, are you ready? Like where is the leadership position to support what's happening in that trickle down to    the norm, essentially?  Yeah, I. 

that's,  This, this is everyday work.  what you were  speaking on earlier. You know, we here say, okay, I have this badge, or I have this certification. And being a socially responsive leader, this is the everyday work of how we function.  What is our mindset when we show here, and what are the behaviors that we exhibit  that align to our. Values  and Not just our values as a school, right? Sometimes what has happened is we have created  values as institutions, and I don't think this is just schools, this is just anywhere That's an, a large organization. We create our own culture and way of functional way being the problem comes when it doesn't intersect or align with the people we serve.

  And so the people we serve have  values, and that's kind of what it goes back to is that these culturally responsive leaders, before they had a name and a or a title to 'em, were people who said, oh, the community is dealing with this equity issue. How can we support them and educate them to deal with that issue?  Right.   Or this community may not have wealth in the form. Shout out to Yo Dr. Yso may not have cultural wealth and I mean  wealth as far as income, but they have a lot of cultural wealth, meaning.  They have a loving family. Okay? Or they have friends or they understand how to navigate different social scenarios.

 They have dreams and aspirations. They have language more than one, you know, so there's all this richness that makes you up as a person and a culturally responsive leader sees that not only in the students, but in the teachers and in the community members, and is able to.  I can bring all these people together and honor their experiences 

Yes.  And see them as assets,  rather. Yes. That's the key I think, is that, that that shift in the view, and you were to,  in that mindset, you wrote something about that critical self-reflection, and I think that's, Where this goes for leadership, right? You said critical self-reflection is a mindset that drives equitable decisions while culturally responsive leadership is expressed behavior  that brings those out.

Right.  So  to  me,  and tell me if I'm interpreting this wrong, but.  When I'm self-reflecting and I'm thinking about all the things you shared, right? I'm thinking about the community, I'm thinking about the people under my leadership.  How do my actions  reflect seeing those as assets? 

Yes.  Yes, that. That's it, Tammy. That's it.  Yeah.

Mm-hmm. 

And you, you know, we say that, right? Like,  you can do one thing, but what I, what I see is what I believe sometimes, right? Or a lot of times.

Yes.

but it can be both, right? How are we talking?  How are we talking? What is, what is, what are, what are we moving towards?

What are the behaviors that support that? What are the behaviors that embody that?   And so that gets into  one of my unpublished studies and surveys, kind of another way I arrived at this place, but I asked school leaders  again, across different parts of the state and asked them  just like, what is their experience dealing with matters of race, dealing with racism.

 And social justice in schools. And there was a, a writing space in that survey and they were  able to say like, they just wanted to be able to have conversations about it, 

Mm-hmm.

  And that's part of that critical self-reflection. If we can dialogue, if we can  have some mentorship around it, we can have that conversation.

A lot can happen right there in that moment. For us.  And we carry the outcomes of that conversation into other parts of our lives and other situations when we're at work.  But they, at the time, and this was 2021, so  you know, so much happening at that time and coming off the rails of 2020   or

Mm-hmm.

people just didn't feel like they necessarily had the space and the safe space to talk about.

  About these issues  and how to find solutions or just what were their initial thoughts and feelings? People haven't had the time to explore what are my thoughts and feelings? I've been told to feel a certain way.  I've been told to, or just keep moving regardless of what's happening.  But what do I really think and feel about?

  Yeah.   That's so powerful, right? What do I really think? What do I really feel?  How are we providing the space for those conversations? But,  and at the same time, I think   frameworks for those conversations and support on  how to.  Listen to respond  versus listen and react.  'cause there's a lot of emotion, right? Involved in a lot of this work. There's a lot of feelings and  you know, learning to  sit or, or think or pause in your feelings  gives you an opportunity to respond versus react. To what's happening or what someone  has said or shared  about whatever   the scenario is.  

Yeah.  Yeah. And I would say at this level of conversation, it's not about us making a decision about right or wrong because we, we have a lot of rhetoric about right or wrong, but sometimes before we get to that place, before we get to that decision, we just need to say, this is my truth. This is how I'm really feeling.

This is what I really believe. This is what I really think. And I just need the space for somebody to allow me to say that to them.  And the, the other person had the chance to say their own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Right? And so,  but that is a very emotional thing. That's a very hard thing because it's a liberating thing.

 Brene Brown talks a lot about her shame work, right? And even  bell Hooks, she has this wonderful quote that I'm gonna paraphrase.  Just take an excerpt from about how shame is the most powerful tool of our injustices that we're experiencing, right? And those injustices and that shame can paralyze you. 

They can paralyze you to not speak. They can paralyze you to not think. They can paralyze you to not take action.  And so it's very, very, very important that we make space  whether you call it a safe space or a brave space.  To just have the initial conversation  of processing and reflecting.  And if you don't have somebody to do that with, you know, there are.

So the power of written word  has changed my life. So taking the time to write it down, to journal it out.   And I wanna hone in on what you said. There are protocols for how to go about this. This is not something to just jump into. 

Right?

If we have not practic, a lot of us, were not given those skills.

Mm-hmm.

There are so many protocols for us  and let's follow it, and then we'll develop that over time 

Yes. 

in natural  conversation.

Over time. I think  that's another important aspect. It's not an overnight    process, but I love that. I, I'm, I'm so glad you brought in Brene and Bell Hooks two of my favorite ladies.   For, for real, they've shaped a lot of  of my work.  And yeah, shame is powerful and it keeps us silent.   Yeah, I don't know what else I wanna say about that, but I just, I just, it's, it's time to think about breaking through the silence  to get to solution. 

I love that Tim  like breaking,  that's exactly what it's.

Yeah. Yeah.  Okay. So that got a little heavy there, but that's okay. That's like   been working on.

I know, I know. No, I love it. I love it. I know you're in the midst of  collecting your survey. I know every doctoral student's like Here's my target, here's my target. You know, that always makes me think of  I don't know. Are you a Star Wars fan? 

I'm not, but I think I get most of the references.

Okay, so do you remember when Luke Skywalker, you know, and they're trying to, you know, shoot the thing and the dust started, like, stay on target. Stay on target, you know, do, do you know what I'm talking about? Okay. That just

I.

in my, that it just popped in my head. That was so random. But anyway, I know you're focused on your target, which is the finishing, collecting your response,  which.

Do you have a timeline for that?  Just curious. 'cause I'm excited to hear about some of these results that you get.  I know you'll have some process to work through that and, you know, finish writing a dissertation and all those things.   So where you are in your timeline 

 So I have closed the survey and I am currently in the process of, I've done, I've got the, the preliminary results from it.  But because this is a survey that I authored and it  from scratch  based on different concepts, I'm in the process now of  validating it and going through the reliability pieces.

yeah. Mm-hmm. 

So I'm hoping for  to be done and wrapping that up with  30 days.  So

exciting. 

yeah, like, you know, you always kind of say that with a cringe as a doctoral candidate because you're like   long as they accept it, 

Look, girl, I have, and I still have it saved. I have like, final, final, final version, final, final, final version, the actual final version. I think I have all of those somewhere. Something like that saved   from writing my dissertation. So I get it. We're, we're hoping for the, the 30 days for you. I would love to chat more about results when you have them because it's, I think it's exciting work.

 That's needed. It fits.  Definitely fits a space in the fields   that we need. We need to gather information, bring that community together, like you said, because we, that's how change happens. It happens in, you know, in our individual choices, but it also happens when we come together as a community  to support that change, to support policy change, to, you know, use our voice in a collective way as well as in an individual way.   So just thinking about,  gosh, we've talked about a lot of things in our time together, which is so, so exciting, but what would you say, just thinking about  tips, you know, for educators, maybe leaders or coaches   that  are engaging with this work, what would be like your, your pro tip or something you'd wanna share with them? 

Yeah, I think for school leaders  a lot of times you are the facilitator of the conversation.  And so  I would say one practice that conversation with yourself, that self-reflection and finding that one thing  it could be like, we need to really talk about P L C, or we really need to talk about social emotional learning.

Or, you know, get a very narrow focus on that thing and that you wanna focus on with others in your school. And  think about who is the most impacted by this as far as your students and your  your teachers. Go and reflect on where you are in that process and your thoughts and beliefs, but then go and  I like, I'm gonna take your word.

Go and find that protocol that you can have these conversations with  the different invested parties  around that issue, meaning   if you are a principal  find a protocol in a space to talk to your leadership team.   And, and don't just say, okay, we wanna talk about P L C. No, we wanna talk about  the identities, this specific identity of students and how we can support them and what are their assets.

Let's not only talk about what's not going well. What are their assets? And then how do we teach others to reflect on that during that time, that p l c time?   And so that's what I would say.  One, reflect yourself.   One, find a, a, a topic, a narrow topic for you to reflect on yourself. Two, find a protocol to talk to your leadership team about it.

And then three, figure out how can you  find space and time for others to reflect on. 

I love that. I love that so much. Well, Gabrielle, I wanna thank you for joining me today. It has been a pleasure as always, to talk with you. I feel like we could talk forever about some of these things, but  that's not a bad thing. I don't, I see that as an asset  It.

we,  so Well, thank you so much for joining me.



Thank you. Thank you for having me here. I really enjoyed it