Unveiling Collective Memory: Teaching Equity Through History

In this thought-provoking podcast episode, join us as we dive into the transformative work of educators dedicated to promoting equity and social justice. Join Dr. Tami in her conversation with  Kate Pole.  Kate shares insights into a powerful project that addresses the complexities of teaching history through the lens of collective memory. Focusing on the Civil War, Kate reveals how she and her colleagues guide students to explore the layers of historical narratives, examining the impact of memory, imagery, and interpretation.

Discover the challenges and triumphs of guiding students through the examination of primary sources, such as articles of secession, and witness the power of fostering open dialogues on sensitive topics. Kate emphasizes the importance of building a supportive community within and beyond the classroom, encouraging educators to take the first step by truly getting to know their students and community.

If you're an educator passionate about creating an inclusive and reflective learning environment, this episode offers valuable insights, practical tips, and inspiration to embark on a journey of equity-focused teaching.

Coaching Discovery Call

Transcript

  Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the dragon fly rising podcast with me, your host, Dr. Tammy Dean. I am so excited to continue our conversation from our last episode.  With Kate poll. If you remember, Kate is a history teacher from normal Illinois. I am super excited for us to dig into some ways that she and her colleagues are teaching history. And how they are connecting that and thinking through, right? 

Like what happens in history? What, you know, forms, collective memory nostalgia, um, super compelling things. , Kate and her colleagues.  Have been working in presenting on this so let's dive right back into the conversation and here's some more from kate 



This work you're doing and presenting and talking about, about teaching race through our memory, right? Because our perception  and

Yeah.

influences, um,  our understanding of, history and interpretation.

And  I find that super intriguing, right? So  memory effects are memory of history. And so I, I would love to hear a little bit more about that and, and this  work you were doing and,  the power of.  Imagery, you know, and what we remember. I just, I, I, I just found it so compelling. I would love if you would share a little bit about that.

Sure. Um, well, I think I first have to give a major shout out to two of my colleagues,  David Harnish and Megan Summers, because this was their project first. And Megan has moved out of U. S. Studies and, um, David and I now do a lot of teaching and collaborating together and we've, built from their foundation.  I have to give credit where credit is due.

Love that.

Yeah, so, sure. So what we do is... Instead of spending, hey, everyone, let's go through every battle of the civil war that ever happened and every general, every president, uh, which I realize can be fun. I'm not saying throw that out altogether. I, I want to hook students in the stories of history, but I think the much more important story is how has that been remembered in our collective memory.

We all, myself and my colleagues believe this.  so, uh, yeah. It started with David reading  this book by historian David Blight called Race and Reunion,  and I'm going to forget the subtitle, Race and Reunion,  The Civil War in American Memory.  And so what Blight proposes, and the reason this is important is because we have our students then examine the Civil War through Blight's three lenses.

So he says, as soon as the Civil War comes to an end, it's really that Reconstruction era that's more important. Um, because even though the 13th Amendment has been ratified, well, 13th, 14th, 15th, there have been all these great civil rights additions. Slavery is abolished. For, for a couple of years, um, Black Americans Do get some opportunities and respect and are elected to political office.

But simultaneously, instantly people are going to push back against it. White Americans are going to push back against it. Just because the law has changed, that doesn't mean racism has disappeared. And so they start making very conscious efforts to change how we remember what this war was about. , which leads us to the Lost Cause mythology. 

So, slavery wasn't really about, even though it's absolutely about white supremacy, let's put up lots and lots of monuments all over the South, you know, and this will get us into,

States rights.

right,  states rights to slaves. Like, I, people forget the, the prepositional phrase that belongs at the end of that. States rights.

To slavery. , so for instance, I should back up. One of the first things we do  is have the students learn. What was the civil war about?  What caused it?  Because, and what we do, we use this tool called Pear Deck, where you can get anonymous responses from students, and sometimes when you're having a challenging conversation, that's a good way to start, because they can, I know, I know who they are behind the scenes, so there is some moderation, but they can be a little more honest with each other,  and it never fails, we have quite a few students who say, well, it's states rights, it's southern heritage, it's southern culture, which is, in their minds, Different and removed from slavery. 

And so we have to back them up and say, wait a minute, if I look at the primary sources. That's not true.  Um, and I'm going to quote.  So we use a part of Clint Smith's book, How the Word is Passed, A Reckoning with History. Yeah, uh, With the

Powerful book y'all. I highly recommend you read that. Um, uh, Yeah.

And for all you social studies teachers, well actually anyone, he also is the host of, if you know the Crash Course videos, there's a newer series called the Black American History, U.

S. History, and he hosts that as well. So, He is visiting Monticello. , you know, each chapter in his book is going to different historical sites to see how is the Civil War remembered and the differences are stark. But while he's at Monticello, one of the tour guides said, Uh, and I'm quoting him here. He says, I think that history is the story of the past, using all the available facts. 

, nostalgia is a fantasy about the past using no facts and somewhere in between is memory, which is kind of this blend of history and a little bit of emotion. I mean, history is kind of about what you need to know. Nostalgia is what you want to hear.  And so, that's what we're trying to make the students examine.

Is, are we looking at history, memory, nostalgia, and, and where do you and your own personal identity, where do you fit into this? Um, and that can be really challenging for students. So again, I go back to the Pear Deck thing and say,  um, so to you, you had said something about images.  So I think I know what you're referring to.

The, the, the set induction to this unit, we have the students look at a series of images. , the first one I believe is the South Carolina flag, the U. S. flag, there's another one up there, and you can see, , this old South Carolina flag that has part of the Confederate flag in it, and it's flying over , the Capitol building.

And we, we just say, give us, you know, five words that pop into your head. Um, when you see this and our students have some pretty interesting things to say, 

I imagine they do.

yes, they do. So for that picture, student responses ranged from. Wrong, racism, confederacy, to freedom, bravery, valor, nationalism, to racism, normalized,  divided, and liberty, tradition, and pride. 

So, that's really important for me as a teacher to know

Wow.

point, right? And they're essentially looking at a confederate flag. 

I, I just, that is the whole, like,  trajectory, right? And I, I just, I just think it's important to remind the audience right now, like she's in the Midwest, 

I am. 

you know, I, you know, I think sometimes people think some of those responses would only come from the South. 



Well, yeah, and it went a step further. And then I put up a picture of the confederate flag. We had had, we were playing off of something that actually happened at our school, a hate incident involving the confederate flag. And so some time had passed, but you know, this is, this is also part of my job is. 

I'm not going to ignore that this happened. Our students know it happened. We have to find a way to talk about it. So I, I had put up the flag and said, I made this statement and my Pear Deck just said, respond. That's it. Respond. And so the statement said people, including students here, should be able to fly the Confederate flag.

because it is not necessarily synonymous with slavery. And I had, I'll just give you a couple of responses. One student said, absolutely not. If you fly that flag, you and your flag are racist. Another one said, how can you say with such certainty that slavery was the sole cause of the Civil War? None of us in this classroom were there.

We can't understand what went through the soldiers minds. I can't believe there was only one cause for all this destruction. Couldn't there have been something else that made men kill literally their own brothers?  Um, and then I had one more. Oh, here we go. And I'll read you one last one.  If your great great great grandfather had slaves, it was obviously a human rights violation.

But the stars and bars actually represents the South. They need to represent their own country somehow, right? My family's from the South, and I know Black people who fly this flag proudly. It's about Southern heritage. So. I have all of those students in my room.  Think, right? How do I teach all of them?  And I know that once I put these primary sources in their hands, and the first primary sources we show them, not the first, sorry, we build up to this, are  the actual articles of secession from all of the southern states.

And every, and I'm, we steal it actually from, Clint Smith, uh, quotes them, so we're using part of his book here.  Every one of them is clear as day that they are seceding because of slavery. And in fact, the worst of them will say, we recognize that,  we are seceding and we recognize our right to do so, uh, because we are the dominant race. 

I, I mean, there's just no question that every, and then there's Alexander,  Stevens, the Vice President of the Confederacy, gives his famous cornerstone speech that slavery is the cornerstone of the Confed, like,  his, that's the history piece, right? But what I'm, but what I'm seeing in their responses is not history.

I'm seeing collective memory. I'm seeing identity. Um, and so how do I get those students?  To number one, recognize the tension between facts, what we know and what they feel. And that's really hard to do because I need them to stay in the conversation with me. Right? If I just, if I just throw all the primary sources at them from, from the start, wag my finger at them and say, you're wrong.

You're horrible. Go. Okay. How can you live with

Why do you think that? You shouldn't be thinking that. You are smarter.

Right. Okay. That's. I'm now insulting their,  the one student who said, this is Southern culture and I know black people who fly the flag.  What happens if I immediately tell that student, well, you're an idiot and you're a racist and he's out, I've lost him.

and  how can we all grow and change if I let that happen?

Yeah.

So we very so this project, which takes weeks, by the way, I don't want to say this happens overnight. Um, number 1, we put in breaks everywhere. So we'll teach them a little bit of history. And then there's a break where it's a. Restorative Justice listening circle or a Pear Deck or a journal where they can talk about how are we doing?

Do you want to take a breath here? I'm stealing from Jason Reynolds in, uh, Stamped in, in the remix,  right? When he, when he says something really challenging, he puts in bold print, Stop. Breathe. Everybody take a breath.  So we try to put those pauses in as we go through these very difficult ideas. Um, and then they examine, okay, let's look at the daughters of the United Daughters of the Confederacy and how they made  every effort to make sure that these monuments went up all over the South.

And they were all going to be about the glory of Confederate generals.

Mm hmm.

and so we have the students look at a timeline. You know, those.  I know that people like to argue, but that's history, and if you take them down, you're taking down history. Okay, who is history? Is it history, or is it... National memory and national confederate memory

Mm

because if it's history,  why then and I'll have them examine a map of where lynching took place.

There's some really great visual resources that go with this

hmm. Mm

and it's everywhere. It's all over the South.  Okay. Well, then why are all of these schools and highways and theaters and libraries and named after confederate generals? But I only have one Brian Stevenson's the Peace and Justice Memorial, which is pretty darn new to recognize that lynching happened all over the South. 

I can't find it. It's not visible that that happened.  That's a problem.

Uh huh.

That, that's not history. That's something, something different is happening there. Um, then they'll look at textbooks, okay, how do textbooks tell this story differently in different times and places. Um, and who's, I also like to use, , Homi Bhabha, who is a Harvard professor and he talked about the right to narrate.

Mm

Who gets to tell the story, whose story is being told, and, and that's what we're constantly throwing at them, right? So then maybe we'll fast forward and look at the birth of Eclipse from Birth of a Nation, um, you know, various things like that. And so you're watching this lost cause be written into history, and the actual history is just being silenced, which means the voices of Black Americans are also being silenced. 

And then to go back to Blight, his next vision is reconciliation,  which is, okay, we need the North and the South to come together. So I'll tell you what, we'll just talk about how brave soldiers are on both sides.  Aren't they brave? Look at their, look at their fighting. Look at, look at what

Mm hmm.

Okay.

Do you want to talk about slaves? No, no, no. Let's not talk about slavery. Let's just talk about great battles and, and soldiers, right? So they'll look at movies, presidential speeches, uh, just lots of different resources on, on how that has been told. And then the. Third vision, which of course is what we're trying to get them to, is the  emancipationist vision.

Well, wait a second. How do I once again, or how not once again, how do I for the first time  give that right to narrate back to the people who were impacted the most, and I would argue continue to be impacted , by slavery and everything that came after it. Um, and And you can't, reconciliation, uh, uh, not the, not the vision of teaching history, but us as a country cannot happen until we're willing to grapple with the truth  of, yeah,  with history, not just with collective memory, not with nostalgia, but with actual history.

Um, and that's, that's slow going. That's hard to do.  But I, I think that's a battle I'm happy to fight for the rest of my career if I have to. So, that's what they do. They pick something. They pick an angle. I'm going to look at movies. I'm going to look at books. I'm going to look at education. I'm going to look at  one lens and I'm going to watch that narrative of the Civil War and collective memory change over time.

Mm

And, and compare it to actual history. So that, that's essentially what the project does. 

Wow. 

Yeah, they come up with them. The students, I mean, these are sophomores doing this. So I know it sounds intense, but  if we move slowly enough, they're in. They'll stick with us, and as we said at the beginning, teenagers are capable of amazing things.

They just need you. They need that literacy specialist to say, Yeah, they can handle that source. Let's just put in those literacy supports to help them. And they can do it. They are really capable of doing all of

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it also highlights  the importance of the intentionality behind the planning on the part of , the educator, um, as well. It's kind of twofold, but  I just think the opportunity is the most In key part right here, like, how are we building opportunity?  And, you know, also  requires a pushback a little bit, because textbooks,  right, are influenced,  you know, historically, by certain areas of the United States.

what? What are you talking about?

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh, because their population, and  So it then 

expands into the rest of the nation, right? Like we're trying to appease,  I'm just going to say we're trying to appease Texas.  So we write, , our textbook in a certain way  and it erases the erasure.  That, that happens, right? So,  the other piece here is the primary source documents. And every  wonderful, amazing history teacher I know, or preparer of history teachers,  wants and talks about the importance of primary source documents  in understanding and evaluating history.

So this is my plug, right? So, I get it teachers, you might have a textbook you have to do. And... You could bring in a supplemental source of a primary source document.  this is just me. This is like that opportunity. So I'm just, I'm just  sharing this with you. I would love you to see you do that. Like, just try it out.

Try it out.

Yeah.

source document. Um, because it changes the, the, it changes the conversation. 

Yeah. And it's hard for what it's worth, by the way, uh, working for, I think the, if I recall, I was talking to one of our colleagues at I S U about this. I think they actually are the fourth largest history ed program in the country. Um, and the first, the largest in Illinois. Lots and lots of history pre-service teachers.

And man, do they push historical thinking, primary sources, , and making sure that everyone's right, everyone's right to narrate is there, that everyone's voice is heard. Um, in fact, and I love this, I, I think I've changed the way I've taught over the years, is you want to get sources, you want sources that speak to each other, 

and sometimes they don't agree with each other, but yeah, it's, that, that's, I, it's interesting because putting those articles of secession in students hands, you can just watch some of them tense up, right, you can't, and I have to do it kind of carefully, because like I said, I want them to stay with me, I want them to stay in the conversation, and I want them to understand, this is not a personal attack on them and their identity, but what if,  but what if there's an opportunity here, To change that narrative as they pass it on in their own families.

Right. Um,  and I think of,  we also use a lot of Goldie Muhammad's the cultivating genius. 

Fabulous.

yeah, well, we're just.  I need students to see their identity, but what's so scary is sometimes your identity falls on the wrong side of history, and how do you, how do you grapple with that? Um, so that's, that is part of the lesson too, if we can pull it off, and like I said, when you put those primary sources in their hands, you can just watch some students tense up.

They don't, they don't quite know that cognitive dissonance,

Uh

what I, I want. I need cognitive dissonance in order for learning to happen. But that's why we also say, let's just take a breath. Okay. Let's let's, here's that journal opportunity, or here's that  listening circle or Pear Deck or whatever we need to do.

We're going to take a little pause because that's a lot to take in right now.

Yeah.

You know, and some of them go home and talk to their families about it, which I love. I think that's great, but  it it's tense. It's, it's a tense process. So it's, so we also make it a very slow process.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's an important part, right?

Yeah,

again, the marathon, not a sprint. So, 

And I'm just a sophomore high school teacher, right? Like, I'm not,  I just want them to, I guess my goal is by the time they leave my class, they're still thinking. That things that they thought were black and white are now gray. And if that's where they're at at the end of the year, I'm, I'm gonna consider it a job well done.

That they're, they're not as certain of things as they used to be.

Mm hmm.

I think that's my job.

Yeah absolutely.  And I think like the world can use more of that, right? Like the questioning, the inquiry, , the conversation, the, the learning  to engage  In a difficult conversation, right? I think

Yeah.

like that's what I hear These students are getting the opportunity to do is to learn how to have a conversation with someone that has a different viewpoint or different perspective or um different life experience or all of the above in this same space and so how can I  You know, listen  and respond versus listen to react, right?

Yes.

you know,  this work has a lot of emotion attached to it. Equity work and social justice has so much emotion,

Yes.

and learning how to navigate those motions, whether you're learning, whether you're leading,  right, are, , is such an important piece and, and I love that you're making this space for reflection and to feel You know what I'm feeling, um, 

Yeah.

an outlet for it.

That isn't the person that I might be disagreeing with right now.

Right. Yeah. But it's tricky because I, I should also say, I hope, I hope this goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway.  I'm also not there to coddle white students, right? Like I understand they're teenagers, they are, they're still growing up and , I want them involved in the conversation. But on the flip side of that.

I have to be careful about,  I need them to understand. So if I go with a slavery example, I need students to understand the, the violence and horror of slavery.  But I don't want to re traumatize my students of color either. Right. And it's,  I, it's, it's a tricky balance to say, Oh, hey, can everyone be patient while white students and white families  come along with us.

And that's not terribly fair to ask of students of color. Right? So that's something I'm constantly working on and I don't know, don't ask me what the solution to that is because I'm not sure I've got it figured out. 

Yeah. 

I'm a white teacher. So, that's also. Tricky. Um, I want my black students, like, obviously I want them to be able to come talk to me if they have concerns or they've had enough or they need a break, but I also wish desperately that my faculty, this is something we're working on, is I, I wish our faculty was diverse.

It's not because those students need also to have someone with their own lived experience to talk to about this.  So it's, It's all very, very tricky and we still have a, I like our project. I love it, but we have a lot of work to do. We're not done here. Yeah, we're not done. 

and, you know, I really do, I appreciate that , about where you are in the work. Right. Because I think it all, it, you know, as we're having this conversation serves as a model to those that are in the work or those that are getting ready to start it. Like, you can have been doing this work for a while, and I keep, I keep sharing this with people like, right, like I've been involved in this social justice equity space in education for 25 years and I voice.

I always feel old when I say that, but I'm going to keep saying it because I'm really not old, but, uh,

no, you're not.

no, not, not

No, we're not.

No, we are not. But even in this 25 years, I,  just like you,  I'm still learning and there are still people that I learn from and read from or listen to or, uh, talk to and this community.

So I think.  And, and even though you haven't really used that description of it, a professional community to engage in this work for, , support, reflection, ideas, growing, and , I feel like that's what I, I want you all to take away from this is that community that, , how are we setting up communities of support?

For students, how are we, , advocating for those? And then also, how are we building our own  community? Um, in our own learning and understanding and seeking out, , those voices or people with different experiences or taking on opportunities to learn or read,  um, from different resources. 

Yeah, this, this was an old one. Um, read this book by Peter Block that was just called Community, The Structure of Belonging. And I remember him talking about leadership.  Not as something that individuals do, but that communities do and I love that because yeah, I mean that the thing that has made me the teacher that I am my best work is when I am collaborating with my.

My people with my community and that community can include other faculty. It can include my students. It can include the parents and guardians. It can include Illinois state. Your community is bigger than you think it is sometimes. And you need to reach out to all those resources and,  and recognize when you've got an expert in your midst and, and, you know, I can't believe I'm going to say this after what we were saying with women, but there, there is a time and a place to be humble.

There is a time and a place to go, somebody else can do this better than I can, and I need to ask for their advice.

Mm hmm.

That's important too. So, yeah, I'm, uh, community. It's all about community.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. , we have shared so many tidbits and opportunities and resources, and I will, I will drop all the resources, y'all, , in the information about this episode and on my website so you can go and grab them because I know you want to go read them all because they are amazing.

 I'd love for us to end on thinking about what  What's that one next step that educators could take to use their voice, right, in this equity and social justice work? Like, what would be your, your advice?

Oh, that's a tough question. Um, okay, well... The next step for them. I guess I would say it's to your point. It's a it's get to know your community. I know that sounds a little strange. You know, we all want to take action right here right now.  But if you don't know. Your students, their environment, uh, uh, the culture of the community you live in, the resources that are available to you first,  making change happen is much more difficult, but if, if the people around you  feel like, Oh, you really care what I think and what my lived experience is and what I have to say and what my expertise is. 

They will open up. They will say, Oh, no one's ever asked me that before. Sure. Yeah. Can I, and, and automatically just in asking, getting to know the resources that are all around you that have, and, and reach out to people that are different than you are, whether that be  in their, in their discipline or in their level of experience.

Like I learned it's amazing what I learned from pre service teachers, right?    They're going to class. every day. They are on top of the latest scholarship in a way that I will never be. So if, I can't tell you how many book recommendations I've gotten from college students  this  Oh, right.

My, my Goodreads list. Last time I checked Goodreads, I think I have, my want to read list is like 1800 books. It's just insane,  but I'm going to keep them there someday. As soon as this interview ends, I'm just going to start reading until I die. Um, that's the only way I'm going to get through all

that's the only way it makes work. So if anybody wants to pay Kate to read, she's, 

Happy to do it. Happy to do it.  Um, but yeah, I think,  I think that's what that's step one is making everyone else aware that you care about what they have to say, and that you want to incorporate it in your classroom and that you want them to be able to connect to what you're doing and that you want them to see.

This is authentic and important and significant. And it's, you know, it's once, once everyone has that comfort level, oh my gosh, you can change the world. I know that sounds idealistic, but Hey, you can't be a teacher unless you still have a little bit of idealism.  right.

Yes.

I just think you get, you gotta get  to know everybody as best you possibly can and tap into those  Recognize what you have. That, that would be step one.

Yeah. Absolutely. Love it. Love it. That's amazing advice, , for our educator friends listening today. So I, , want to thank Kate for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure talking to you.

Oh, it's been great. I thank you so much for inviting me on your show. I feel honored and privileged and also just very excited to get to hang out with you for an hour. That's pretty, pretty wonderful because it's been too long.

I know,, it has been too long. So I want to thank you all. Remember to like, share, subscribe, and shoot me any questions if you have any from today's episode. You can reach out if you're on Spotify, you can answer on that Q& A, or head on over to Instagram at dragonflyrisingllc and drop me a question there.

So thank you all so much for joining us today.