Equity in Education: Transforming Classrooms through DEI Practices

In this week's enlightening episode, join Dr. Tami  for a candid conversation with Brandon as we explore practical strategies for integrating Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) principles into classroom practices. From reimagining the curriculum to fostering a culture of inclusivity, Brandon shares invaluable insights and actionable tips for educators passionate about creating equitable learning environments. Discover how to address racial and gender biases, support marginalized students, and embrace diverse perspectives in teaching. Whether you're a seasoned educator or just starting your DEI journey, this episode offers valuable guidance to empower you in your mission to make a difference in the classroom.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

1. National Council for Teaching Mathematics (NCTM) and Illinois Council of Teachers of Mathematics (ICTM):
   • Offer webinars on infusing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) into the math curriculum.
2. Netflix Documentary on Khalif Browder:
   • The documentary sheds light on issues of injustice and systemic racism, providing valuable insights for classroom discussions.
3. Articles on Modern-Day Injustice:
   • These articles serve as supplementary materials for discussions on contemporary issues related to injustice, paralleling themes from literature such as "The Crucible."

Coaching Discovery Call

Discovery Call

Transcript

Tami: 0:32

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Dragonfly Rising podcast with me, your

Brandon Podcast Recording: 0:38

host, Dr. Tami Dean. I am

Tami: 0:41

super excited. Today, our special guest is Dr. Brandon Thornton. He is a high school special ed English and math teacher from Bloomington High School in Bloomington, Illinois. Brandon, welcome today.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 0:54

Hi,

Brandon: 0:55

happy to be

Brandon Podcast Recording: 0:55

here.

Tami: 0:55

We are so excited. Brandon like Hey, does some amazing DEI and equity work and has worn lots

Brandon Podcast Recording: 1:02

hats and he's

Tami: 1:03

going to share

Brandon Podcast Recording: 1:03

a little bit

Tami: 1:04

about that work and some, some tips with us today. Brandon, one of the things I love to ask everyone when they come on the podcast is around your personal equity work journey, because I believe that this journey is a marathon and it's constant and it evolves as we learn more and do more. Share with us a little bit

Brandon Podcast Recording: 1:28

about

Tami: 1:29

your experience and your own equity journey.

Brandon: 1:33

Sure. I think I'm probably along the lines of a lot, like a lot of listeners who, you know, DEI, we probably knew it was here before it became a buzzword, right? And so for me, I've always known about diversity, equity

Brandon Podcast Recording: 1:46

inclusion,

Brandon: 1:47

and of course, it's taken different names over the decades. But my journey is, is pretty, pretty unique. I feel like, you know, As an

Brandon Podcast Recording: 1:57

American

Brandon: 1:57

teacher, you know, there's not a lot of people who look like me, and that's been my entire experience,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 2:02

even as a kid.

Brandon: 2:04

I was one of four black students in the honors English classes when I got to Illinois State University. I was the only black

Brandon Podcast Recording: 2:13

person who

Brandon: 2:14

was majoring in mathematics education. So my whole four years, never saw any other person that looked like me in the undergraduate program. And within the honors program at ISU was the same kind of situation. And then when I became a teacher,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 2:28

once again,

Brandon: 2:30

Maybe one of five and I teach in a district that is the third most diverse district in the state. And so for the staff to not match that, it was kind of disheartening. But still, that was my

Brandon Podcast Recording: 2:41

right?

Brandon: 2:41

That was my, I've always been the only black guy. And so I never really realized it was problematic. Until I started my master's program in special ed. And then eventually my doctorate in special ed, where I started reading that this was a problem, which is kind of funny because it didn't feel like a problem

Brandon Podcast Recording: 2:59

until I was reading about

Brandon: 3:01

myself. yeah, yeah,

Tami: 3:06

your lived experience, it is what it is what, what drew you to being an educator?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 3:11

Sure.

Brandon: 3:12

So despite teachers not looking

Brandon Podcast Recording: 3:14

me,

Brandon: 3:14

I still had. Wonderful teachers. Honestly, my first teacher that looked like me was in third grade. Her name

Brandon Podcast Recording: 3:21

Miss

Brandon: 3:21

Johnson. And then I had Miss Michael later on, and both of them, I remember them standing in the hall, greeting kids as they came in, and it just felt like I was at home. It felt like, I was finally, I don't know, I never felt any different from my other teachers, but it just felt special there. They look like my mom, you know what I mean? So I, it just felt very comfortable. But I was still too young. Didn't really understand like, Oh, I could be a teacher. It really didn't hit me until high school. I had really great math teachers who would I guess I was a nerd because I was in my lunch and math class. class talking to them. And because of that, they would often have me come in after school and just help other students. And I really loved that feeling of helping others and,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 4:06

them

Brandon: 4:06

saying things and it feeling like, Oh, wait a minute, I can do this as a career. And so that's kind of what happened there. And then the same thing was true for my English classes. I never felt othered in my English classes. And so I was kind of on the fence, like, should I teach math or English? And now I get to do both. My mom, obviously she was the first teacher that I knew. She owned a preschool. So growing up, I always knew that I was either going to take over the family business or do something else. And then it didn't really turn into high school until I went to high school. So

Tami: 4:40

And then you thought, I like these high school kids.

Brandon: 4:44

Yeah. And obviously I had to work in the, in the summers at my mom's preschool and I kind of knew, oh, I can't do this age group.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 4:52

There's no way.

Tami: 4:53

Know, it's funny how we find our niche. I remember subbing when I first finished my undergrad to be a teacher. And First graders are great. Love first graders. I had to be in a kindergarten class. I was like, nope, nope,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 5:09

nope. Yeah. Bless you kindergarten teachers

Tami: 5:13

out there. You are amazing. I can even handle the little toddlers, you know, but I

Brandon Podcast Recording: 5:17

don't know something

Tami: 5:18

that kindergarten. That's a special. But I taught middle school too, right? And people say the same thing. They say the same thing about high school,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 5:23

everyone has their. Yeah. Yeah.

Tami: 5:27

Yes. I want to come back to something you were saying about, as you move through your master's and then into your doctorate, and then you started reading things, I'm really curious how and what you were reading and what, And how that is influenced where you've moved into your equity work today. Mm hmm.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 5:48

So

Brandon: 5:49

disproportionality, right? That

Brandon Podcast Recording: 5:50

that wasn't

Brandon: 5:51

a word to me. That's not a word that people just throw out on social media. It's not a word you have in a casual conversation. What do you think about disproportionality? So I had

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:00

never heard the word

Brandon: 6:00

until I read about it. And that word was always attached to blackness, right? There's a disproportionate percentage of black and Hispanic males who are being disciplined more than their peers. And so I didn't even understand what that meant. But it was everywhere, It was in all these articles. And so I kept reading it,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:18

and

Brandon: 6:18

then I just kept wondering why, like, what? Every article has the recommendations and it's always like, we need a more diverse teaching workforce to

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:26

combat this.

Brandon: 6:27

And so I just, I, obviously that's an obvious solution, but for me, it was like, yeah, that's true. Why don't we have more people who look like me in the classroom?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:37

And then I

Brandon: 6:38

just

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:38

felt on this rabbit

Brandon: 6:39

hole of, is it systemic? It's like, and then kind of paused, took a little

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:45

because

Brandon: 6:45

is overwhelming to learn about the world's problems and feel like you can't solve

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:49

them.

Brandon: 6:50

But the whole thing with George Floyd propelled me back

Brandon Podcast Recording: 6:53

that

Brandon: 6:53

work. I was in the middle of my doctorate work at that time and a lot of things were happening with alumni from my school who were coming back and having demands for the district to say A, we need a more diverse curriculum, and B, we need a more diverse workforce. And to see Gen Z kind of rise up and demand these things kind of forced me to be like, you should do it too.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:18

There's no reason I shouldn't,

Brandon: 7:19

that kind of like, got me back into it.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:21

The reason I took

Brandon: 7:22

a break from even like, thinking about all the things was because I was a subject of a lot of FOIA

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:27

requests. For those

Brandon: 7:28

listening, that's the Freedom of Information Act, and it wasn't like I was up to

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:32

anything

Brandon: 7:32

sinister. I don't think, I don't know.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:34

You know, you probably were not, but

Tami: 7:37

perception sometimes doesn't always equal reality

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:42

and it really was,

Brandon: 7:43

it was the perception because my name was attached to several different student leader groups, not in our school. Things that kids were having demands on. Maybe I was adjacent to them. I coached speech and debate. And so a lot of those kids

Brandon Podcast Recording: 7:58

were in speech and debate.

Brandon: 7:59

And so my name just kept coming up. I spoke at a gun rally. And so all these. FOIAs are digging for things

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:06

about Critical Race Theory,

Brandon: 8:08

and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:09

DEI, and

Brandon: 8:11

at the time, I didn't

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:12

have

Brandon: 8:12

anything to show for it. Like Critical race theory, we don't do anyways, but like, DEI,

Tami: 8:16

we don't do Critical Race Theory in schools? That's

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:19

not a thing?

Tami: 8:19

thing?

Brandon: 8:21

Shocker,

Tami: 8:22

Plot twist!

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:23

it's not a thing, it's not happening, literally. Your children are not earning doctorates, y'all. They are

Tami: 8:30

are not talking about critical race theory.

Brandon: 8:32

Exactly.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:35

So

Brandon: 8:35

yeah, that was kind of my like, okay, I need to be doing more. People already think

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:41

I am

Brandon: 8:41

anyways, so I

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:42

as well.

Tami: 8:44

You're like, let me meet your

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:45

expectations

Tami: 8:47

and just put my hat back in the ring.

Brandon: 8:50

Yeah. Absolutely.

Tami: 8:52

know what else I love about what you just shared? I think sometimes Gen Z gets a bad rap

Brandon Podcast Recording: 8:57

about things and,

Tami: 9:01

I do appreciate their willingness to use their voice, the things that they feel passionate and compelled to share their voice about, and, That's one of the missions and messages of this podcast itself is use your voice there is power in your voice and when your voice connects with others who are also using their voice, it just exponentially has the opportunity to change some of the systemic systems. That have been in place

Brandon Podcast Recording: 9:30

and make

Tami: 9:31

people aware. Right? Because maybe, you grew up in them. You don't even know,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 9:37

recognize

Tami: 9:38

necessarily some of the oppressive systems that are there because they've just been there.

Brandon: 9:45

Right.

Tami: 9:46

Yeah.

Brandon: 9:47

that's a very good point, because, at the start of the pandemic, all we had was

Brandon Podcast Recording: 9:51

social media,

Brandon: 9:51

we were all quarantining. And so a lot of people in my life were confused. like why are kids

Brandon Podcast Recording: 9:57

demands

Brandon: 9:57

on the school? George Floyd is this isolated event. And so I kind of had to help connect them to

Brandon Podcast Recording: 10:02

George

Brandon: 10:03

Floyd happened because perceptions of black males

Brandon Podcast Recording: 10:05

and these

Brandon: 10:05

perceptions are because of these things that we let slide for so long and it's hard for them to get ahead because of the systemic issues and so I really have to be vulnerable and share my truth through letters to the editor and poetry that I was sharing about growing up with microaggressions hearing things like you're really eloquent for a black person or whatever. I, you know, I didn't really like black people until I met you. People would say that to me all the time growing up, and I used to think it was a compliment. People still tell me, like, oh, you're like an Oreo, black on the outside, but white on

Brandon Podcast Recording: 10:39

inside. That's what I'm like, like,

Brandon: 10:41

you're cool. People say that still, like it's some compliment like I

Brandon Podcast Recording: 10:45

should be like,

Brandon: 10:45

yay! I'm white passing, even though that term doesn't even matter, like, match what I am.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 10:51

And so,

Brandon: 10:52

I had to call those things out. and I did hurt a

Brandon Podcast Recording: 10:54

lot

Brandon: 10:55

of feelings. People would text me long apologies, even though it wasn't about them, but in their own reflective journey, Oh, I, I used to say things like, you're my only black friend and I didn't know that would hurt you.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:07

I'm

Brandon: 11:07

like, it is hurtful because why am I your only black friend? We like,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:10

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Oh.

Tami: 11:13

And I'm sure there was some of that. Well, I'm a nice person, so I can't be biased. It's coming from a good place. I like you. We're friends.

Brandon: 11:22

Mm hmm.

Tami: 11:23

that narrative that tends to reoccur around some of those microaggressions.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:29

Right.

Brandon: 11:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:31

And that's why it's a microaggression.

Brandon: 11:33

Of course you'd untend. But

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:35

it's

Brandon: 11:35

hurt. It's still stung,

Tami: 11:38

And well, and connects back to your implicit bias because you don't

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:42

necessarily realize

Tami: 11:44

why that's a

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:46

Right. Right.

Brandon: 11:48

I think online, they are not microaggressions. People know exactly what they're saying when they say it. Mm

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:54

Yeah. The power of hiding

Tami: 11:55

behind a screen

Brandon Podcast Recording: 11:57

has

Tami: 11:58

brought out some very interesting

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:02

conversation or

Tami: 12:04

use of

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:04

words. Absolutely. You know,

Tami: 12:07

which is interesting, because it was always there. It was just maybe more

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:11

So is it better?

Tami: 12:12

Is subversive better or is it being overt? That is better in that. Can we make more change when it's being there being overt versus

Brandon: 12:22

Yeah,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:23

I kind

Brandon: 12:24

of think overt, it's hurts, but it's better because now there's evidence now we can screenshot. I'm

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:28

okay, we

Brandon: 12:29

can call people in more we can acknowledge that it exists now, like it's easier to track

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:34

now, unfortunately.

Brandon: 12:36

Yeah,

Tami: 12:41

It's like

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:41

a,

Tami: 12:42

good for that, to maybe prompt the conversation, and bad because it's just that emotional toll like you were talking about

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:50

earlier. It's

Tami: 12:51

just there and it's exhausting and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 12:54

doing this work

Tami: 12:55

while it's important really does Take a lot of personal emotional

Brandon Podcast Recording: 13:01

energy.

Tami: 13:02

So hop back into the ring, Did some policy work and You know, wearing, kind of doing what

Brandon Podcast Recording: 13:14

do

Tami: 13:14

with students and supporting the students with,, advising or, because student groups need a teacher

Brandon Podcast Recording: 13:22

to,

Tami: 13:23

you know what's the word I'm looking for? Super, supervise, for lack of a better word. Supervise them, right? They have to have an educator there that's responsible for them. And then you were doing some personal work I'm sure there are teachers on here that are like, how do I those two worlds?

Brandon: 13:40

Sure. Yeah. Balance is a good

Brandon Podcast Recording: 13:43

word actually.

Brandon: 13:44

And that's what I had to do. Me personally, I didn't really want to. Mix my policy work with what was happening in school. Both were at DEI centered, but the clubs that I sponsor, our school is very, our district attorney is very intentional, they're, they're called student led clubs and the sponsor just opens up their classroom. And, and so a lot of the things that the students were fighting for were adjacent to what I was doing, but I was intentional on not saying we should do this. And so really they just inspired me to act. Once I took off my teacher hat, Although I guess we don't have teacher hats anymore. They're like permanent nightcaps. I don't know. Once

Brandon Podcast Recording: 14:26

I,

Brandon: 14:27

once I powered down,

Tami: 14:30

We

Brandon Podcast Recording: 14:30

down? Yeah, not even, not even that.

Brandon: 14:33

Just used social media as a way to say what I said. For my Instagram, I opened it up. Anyone could follow me. Students, parents, teachers, Facebook was where I would share my draft to the public letter to the editor. I would always repost things. I was writing. But still my work with the Racism Free Schools Act. No one knew about that, but that was something that I was secretly doing on the side because I just didn't want to have

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:00

explain myself.

Brandon: 15:02

I knew it

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:02

it was

Brandon: 15:02

important and the team people I was

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:04

working with knew was important and that was all I needed.

Brandon: 15:07

I didn't want to have to explain to people outside of teaching why we need policies in place where students can report racial harassment just in the same way they can report sexual harassment. I didn't want to have to explain to

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:20

people

Brandon: 15:20

because The word race was still dicey at the time. And so, I was very intentional on keeping that to myself, that way I could still feel excited about it. You know, when you, when you share certain things with people, then you gotta like defend it so much that it just becomes Oh my goodness. And so, I didn't,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:39

if

Brandon: 15:39

you ask my principal, he probably doesn't even know that

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:42

that, that that happened.

Tami: 15:44

Well, it sounds like you didn't want to feel like, you needed to ask permission, right?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:49

is it okay that I'm

Tami: 15:50

doing this? Because it

Brandon Podcast Recording: 15:52

definitely is okay. So,

Tami: 15:55

tell me a little bit about, For the people that don't live in, In Illinois the racism free school policy and that advocacy work you were

Brandon Podcast Recording: 16:06

doing.

Brandon: 16:08

Sure. So this was, this was led through a program called teach plus teach plus is national, but this is for teach plus Illinois. and teach plus their whole goal is to take average teachers and teach them about educational policy. And so each cohort has to come up with something they want to change. We wanted to tackle teacher recruitment and retention for teachers of color, and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 16:32

started

Brandon: 16:33

dreaming of how can we do this? And then ultimately we realized, we're trying to recruit teachers, but

Brandon Podcast Recording: 16:39

the,

Brandon: 16:39

current landscape isn't really

Brandon Podcast Recording: 16:43

accessible,

Brandon: 16:43

like it's not approachable, there's so many things happening. across the state that, schools might not be a desirable place for people of color. And so then we kind of thought about, let's take a more, let's take a step back. Let's ask why. And then we Landed on, we need policies in place to protect students and teachers from racial harassment. And during that time, there were so many viral things happening. There was the school in Rock Island where football players hung a

Brandon Podcast Recording: 17:14

banana underneath

Brandon: 17:15

their Only Black Players locker. And the parents were going to, like, move forward, and then overnight they said, We don't want any more attention and we're please just leave us alone. And so, no justice

Brandon Podcast Recording: 17:27

served

Brandon: 17:28

because it went viral before, The schools could see what's happening.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 17:31

It happened in

Brandon: 17:32

Southern Illinois where a student's track coach called her a monkey out of there's more to the story, but essentially, she was running barefoot, and she made her She compared her to an African and then a monkey, and so. once things go online, once things hit Snapchat, Instagram,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 17:48

Instagram, Facebook,

Brandon: 17:48

now we have public opinion, and now the privacy is leaked. Both of those students names are all throughout the media, even though, there's laws protecting their privacy.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 17:57

And so

Brandon: 17:57

we thought, like, that never happens with sexual harassment. It's private, it's slow, you investigate, both parties have a chance to say their piece, a resolution is made, and we can begin to heal. You can't do that when everyone's talking about it in the comments

Brandon Podcast Recording: 18:13

resharing. Yeah, the court of public opinion Yeah,

Tami: 18:17

there's no mercy really in that social media Court whatever gets put out first

Brandon Podcast Recording: 18:23

is

Tami: 18:24

Always

Brandon Podcast Recording: 18:25

the truth. Yeah, that's the truth.

Tami: 18:28

It could be crazy and all the way out in left field

Brandon Podcast Recording: 18:31

And it's so hard

Tami: 18:33

for anybody to recover

Brandon Podcast Recording: 18:35

Yeah. From that. The perpetrator

Brandon: 18:37

and the victim. It's hard because now you're gonna get defensive and there's no opportunity to learn from what happened. You can't learn from the harm you caused So that's essentially what the Racism Free Schools Act is going to do. It's going to mandate that schools have a policy in place. It's not mandating training. It's not mandating curriculum. It's just schools need to have a policy in place that they distribute to staff and parents and families on what to do if you think you are experiencing racial harassment in the same way we display what to do when you are experiencing sexual harassment. So it's that that's all it is. The Anti Racism Schools Act feels very like they're

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:17

critical race

Brandon: 19:18

theory. And so I just didn't want want to go

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:19

through that, but that's what

Tami: 19:21

I'm going to

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:21

drop a resource in the show notes

Tami: 19:23

about what is

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:25

race theory and what it's not. I'm going to, I'm going to drop that

Tami: 19:28

y'all because, and those of you listening probably know, but for those of you that maybe are listening and don't or want to know, I'm going to drop that for you.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:35

Because I think it's

Tami: 19:36

important

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:37

to know what

Tami: 19:38

the difference is and what it isn't.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:41

Absolutely.

Tami: 19:41

yes, It does. Right. And

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:42

that

Tami: 19:43

term like anti racist, people have this

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:46

emotional. Response to it.

Tami: 19:51

And I get that because it can feel very personal

Brandon Podcast Recording: 19:56

and

Tami: 19:57

I think that's one of the important pieces of this policy it gives an opportunity because there's emotion

Brandon Podcast Recording: 20:04

around this

Tami: 20:05

and whenever humans are in their emotion, it's hard to be logical or listen. To another person's perspective. And I think that's one of the really key pieces of DEI work, is one, you got to get awareness around yourself and understand your own personal emotional triggers so you can,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 20:25

whoop, take a

Tami: 20:26

step back when you need to in those moments. Cause you're going to have them. you're you are, cause you're a human being and it's connecting, you know, it's oftentimes personal or feels personal, even if it's maybe not personal, cause policy is not personal, but it affects people personally.

Brandon: 20:41

Mm-Hmm..Oh, I love that.

Tami: 20:43

Woo. It's Like we get down deep. I'm loving

Brandon Podcast Recording: 20:45

this

Tami: 20:45

deep. conversation, I I'm

Brandon Podcast Recording: 20:47

excited.

Tami: 20:49

That there is policy in place because when we come back to even the beginning and your journey we're talking about why is there not more diversity in schools and we have to think about historically speaking, how welcoming have schools felt to persons of color as they went through school

Brandon Podcast Recording: 21:08

and if

Tami: 21:09

it's not welcoming, why on earth would

Brandon Podcast Recording: 21:11

choose

Tami: 21:12

to do that?

Brandon: 21:13

Yep. Why would you come back?

Tami: 21:15

Why You would it you would it and so I think policies like this are really important. I think building awareness is important. I think community and understanding the families in which you partner with as an educational institution

Brandon Podcast Recording: 21:46

is

Tami: 21:46

important.

Brandon: 21:48

Yeah.

Tami: 21:48

You know, moving away from

Brandon Podcast Recording: 21:50

assumption and

Brandon: 21:51

Mm hmm.

Tami: 21:52

getting into this cultural competence. Just because. student why. looks like me, or I think maybe came from the same kind of up background and upbringing doesn't always mean they're just like me.

Brandon: 22:08

Right, right.

Tami: 22:10

how do we value these different ways of knowing and being and acting in the world? And

Brandon: 22:18

that's a good point, because I made that mistake when picking, diverse texts, because I thought, you know what, this book is gonna resonate with them, and because it's a black boy, And it didn't. It did

Brandon Podcast Recording: 22:29

one year, but it didn't with the next group because

Brandon: 22:32

Their lived experiences just weren't the same. I dunno if you've read Long Way down, but that was the book I

Brandon Podcast Recording: 22:37

chose.

Tami: 22:37

Yes! I love that

Brandon: 22:40

I love it too, and I thought, like, it would,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 22:42

I did it,

Brandon: 22:43

we did it with our co-taught kids. they loved

Brandon Podcast Recording: 22:46

it, and a

Brandon: 22:46

lot of the kids were, were

Brandon Podcast Recording: 22:48

recalling

Brandon: 22:49

their memories of their lived experiences and how it kind of matched

Brandon Podcast Recording: 22:53

what the

Brandon: 22:53

main character was going through. And I thought, I'm gonna slide this over next year to my instructional group. And it just didn't, they didn't, they couldn't get past the rules, they didn't, couldn't get past the, what do you mean you should take revenge? What do you mean no snitching? For them, their lives, like, it just wasn't connecting and that's the first couple pages. And

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:14

so. Yeah.

Brandon: 23:16

It really just turned into a complicated poetry

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:19

for

Brandon: 23:19

them when really I wanted to, like, I

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:21

them

Brandon: 23:21

to feel seen. So

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:24

don't

Brandon: 23:24

make assumptions. Lessons learned.

Tami: 23:27

Yes, you know what they say about

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:29

y'all. Yeah. say about

Tami: 23:31

a so, Oh my gosh. So, I want to talk a little bit about,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:35

DEI.

Tami: 23:36

DEI And that work and the everyday and what you do, because I also think people are like gonna be like, Oh my gosh, he went and did this policy work and he's done this. Right. And I,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:49

I

Tami: 23:49

can't do that. I mean, you can people, I'm just gonna tell you

Brandon Podcast Recording: 23:52

can.

Tami: 23:52

I'm gonna give you permission. And there are ways to incorporate principles of DEI and culturally responsive teaching in everyday interactions with students, and you're probably already doing some of them. I want to talk a little bit around what do do on the everyday? What are your tips and tricks for educators to do that?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 24:16

I

Brandon: 24:17

think my biggest tip is pick a principle, right? Accessibility, that's something that we all value. Pick an area of your life and ask yourself, is it accessible to anyone? If anyone want to walk into this door, can they enjoy what I'm enjoying right now? So for example, with

Brandon Podcast Recording: 24:33

speech and debate

Brandon: 24:34

for those who don't know what speech and debate is, it's pretty complicated, so I can't really explain it in this hour. But

Brandon Podcast Recording: 24:39

essentially, think of it

Brandon: 24:41

as competitive public speaking with a little bit of acting, a little bit of debate, and a little bit of broadcasting and poetry slams. It's all of that combined. And as a

Brandon Podcast Recording: 24:52

special ed teacher, I

Brandon: 24:53

always felt like You know, the kids I teach, they never go out for these clubs and, and activities. And so I just started talking it up. I teach English. So I'm like, why don't I just tell them about it? Here's what

Brandon Podcast Recording: 25:05

speech and debate

Brandon: 25:05

is. Speech and debate, speech and debate. And ever since I started doing that, a lot more kids who I teach have started coming out for

Brandon Podcast Recording: 25:11

team.

Brandon: 25:12

And I, I love it. So, for example, two years ago we had a kid with autism. And he wanted to do poetry. And he wanted to talk about how people put him in a box, and how Autism Speaks doesn't speak for him. And I thought, it's beautiful. And so, and he

Brandon Podcast Recording: 25:30

it,

Brandon: 25:30

and he performed it every Saturday like everyone else, and he did well. And, I think, People are afraid to open up certain activities to people because they don't want to hurt them. Because in speech and debate, you were literally judged every weekend with eye contact, social skills, how are you in the round, are you behaving all the things before you even get up to the front to give your speech. And so I, I just stopped caring about those things and my worries for him

Brandon Podcast Recording: 25:58

at this

Brandon: 25:59

just, Let's, let's do it. And he

Brandon Podcast Recording: 26:01

was embraced

Brandon: 26:02

by the community. And so that's whatever you are involved in. If you're coaching is your sport accessible to people of different races, different ethnicities,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 26:10

ethnicities,

Brandon: 26:11

different abilities, languages, start there. And then

Brandon Podcast Recording: 26:16

you get comfortable with

Brandon: 26:17

those things, then move into the classroom. are the things you're doing, will people talk about it 5,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 26:24

5, 10

Brandon: 26:25

years down the line? You know what I mean? People don't talk about the

Brandon Podcast Recording: 26:30

when they're

Brandon: 26:30

grown up. You know, it was never really about the crucible. It was about this idea of McCarthyism and how lies can ruin people. So is there another way to drill that into your students without? Beating the literary canon to death. You could still show them the crucible, but if the kids don't match anyone in the crucible, and honestly, they're Gen Z, a lot of those characters they don't relate to, and so that's something that My co teacher and I have been pushing the rest of the department to let go of this literary canon and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 27:08

maybe just explore

Brandon: 27:10

other books adjacent to, for example, we still do The Great Gatsby, but we do the graphic novel because it's quicker and it's more accessible and that gives us more time to discuss the things I need to know and then we show the movie and then we read Fences and compare the American Dream across those two different portrayals of the American Dream. And then in my class I show the Pursuit of Happiness because that's more relevant to what they're going through. And so we're

Brandon Podcast Recording: 27:37

still

Brandon: 27:38

doing the canon.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 27:39

We're just

Brandon: 27:39

pumping some life into it. And so that's what I recommend people do. If you're afraid of someone,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 27:45

why aren't

Brandon: 27:46

you teaching this? You can still do it, but just supplement it with some other things, too.

Tami: 27:50

Yeah, I think that's really important Because we should be asking, like, why?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 27:55

Are we using this

Tami: 27:56

particular text

Brandon Podcast Recording: 27:58

because that's what

Tami: 28:01

has traditionally been used, I just need you to reflect for a moment. What texts were traditionally even allowed to be taught in school. So that is how the canon became the canon. And there are some great, people out there like Roberts, has got a book called the novel approach. And in it, she does like, she will take like a Canon text and show you here are five or six other books that address this same literary concept

Brandon Podcast Recording: 28:29

that are

Tami: 28:30

a little bit more relevant to your students. So, I mean, that's my challenge to y'all. You may love of Mice and Men or whatever. Book, you know, the horrible great expectations or pride and prejudice. Okay, that's just me talking. I did

Brandon Podcast Recording: 28:44

not

Tami: 28:44

like one of Those are not my favorite from English So now I just talk about them because I didn't like them and I was the reader y'all but the why Why are you choosing this text what is the goal for the reading and learning that's going to come from that. And is this the only way?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:03

So I

Tami: 29:03

love this idea of y'all are doing multimodal text, comparisons, that is critical

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:10

thinking, reading

Tami: 29:11

a novel regurgitating what happened in the chapter or filling out a fill in the blank. Y'all, this isn't even the point of

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:20

podcast

Tami: 29:20

but I'm going to tell you this. If you're bored, With your instruction, so are your students,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:26

right? Like that's boring. It really

Tami: 29:29

is. It's

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:30

boring,

Tami: 29:31

You can't expect them to be excited about that.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:33

Humans

Tami: 29:33

do better when we can connect with the material and I get it. Not everyone's going to connect with everything, but how are you trying?

Brandon: 29:39

Yeah,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:40

you're

Brandon: 29:41

You're right. If you're frustrated with the discussion, it means they're not getting it. I was a great reader too. And I don't remember. The American dream meaning anything in the great Gatsby. I remember reading it and doing well on the test. but, and so I started

Brandon Podcast Recording: 29:55

it. Me too.

Brandon: 29:56

I'm like, Oh, that's the theme. That's one of the things. I, I remember all the figurative language, but I never connected that this was an American dream story until. I became an English teacher, so it

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:07

didn't do today years old,

Tami: 30:10

and I have a doctorate, like, oh, he's rich, and they're

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:13

having a party. And then there's the light,

Tami: 30:15

right longing and love, the light

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:17

across the way.

Tami: 30:18

right?

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:19

Well,

Brandon: 30:19

and same with The Crucible, I remember how it all played out, but to me it was just a witchcraft spooky story.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:25

Maybe,

Brandon: 30:27

maybe I connected it to McCarthyism, but I still didn't hit this idea that lies can ruin lives and the themes of injustice and and so I started teaching it, and then I felt There's better ways to teach

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:38

injustice. I didn't get that either. And I also read the crucible

Tami: 30:40

and. That was my high school's like play at the same time

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:45

we were reading it

Tami: 30:45

went to the play My one of my best friends in high school at the time was in the play That's what I remember the most definitely didn't connect it to McCarthyism

Brandon: 30:52

didn't get me.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:53

yeah see so Until we started showing

Brandon: 30:57

the

Brandon Podcast Recording: 30:57

Netflix

Brandon: 30:58

documentary the the Khalif Browder documentary

Brandon Podcast Recording: 31:14

And

Brandon: 31:14

then We read our primary articles And kids were just like wait, this is from this is present? 2016, this actually happened? We're like, yeah, it actually happened. How does police product connect to John Proctor? And now they're like, they want to know more about John Proctor. We did that before we read The Crucible. So they can see,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 31:33

injustice

Brandon: 31:34

can still happen in modern day. And then it kind of leads to a bigger conversation of why, why was he treated like this So yeah, eat free. You can

Brandon Podcast Recording: 31:45

find

Brandon: 31:46

articles. You don't have to have Netflix. And that was their essay. They had to do a modern day crucible. give us an essay on someone who's also, in modern day, been falsely accused. of a crime and compare and contrast it to one character from the Crucible.

Tami: 32:00

Oh, I like that. That's

Brandon Podcast Recording: 32:03

powerful. Yeah, so those are

Brandon: 32:05

things anyone can, right, like.

Tami: 32:07

ha

Brandon: 32:08

And in math, like math is the same, well, it's kind of hard. math always gets the short end of

Brandon Podcast Recording: 32:12

stick, The stem, the stem places, but if you look, NCTM and

Brandon: 32:17

NCTM and ICTM, the National Council for Teaching Mathematics, they're always having webinars on infusing the DEI into, Your curriculum. And there's tons of texts out there. So I don't know. I, feel like as a math teacher, my biggest thing is just understanding that not everyone

Brandon Podcast Recording: 32:36

has

Brandon: 32:37

An aptitude for math like I did. I got there because I had teachers who, pushed and pushed and pushed

Brandon Podcast Recording: 32:44

pushed. but. I think

Brandon: 32:46

people who get into teaching math do it because they were great at math, and so it's hard for them to relate to struggling learners. and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 32:54

I think

Brandon: 32:54

one of the principles of DEI could just be understanding that you might have to make it more accessible. You might have to pre teach a little bit of standards that aren't your grade level, and that's okay. You might have to understand that not everyone can go home and do 30 problems. with a parent sitting with them at the table and helping. And so maybe that

Brandon Podcast Recording: 33:15

changes how you

Brandon: 33:15

do, structure your class time. I don't send home any math problems. We do

Brandon Podcast Recording: 33:19

it in class.

Brandon: 33:20

We start it so I can at least see who gets it, who doesn't, and then we finish, I reteach it or I can move on. And so, that's a big pedagogical shift for many math teachers that is rooted

Brandon Podcast Recording: 33:33

needed in the DEI it is.

Tami: 33:35

Well, and that's important for so many reasons because the teaching is supposed to happen in the

Brandon Podcast Recording: 33:40

classroom

Tami: 33:41

and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 33:43

the

Tami: 33:43

learning is supposed to happen in the classroom where they have the opportunity to ask the questions of the professional in the room, right? And make it an assumption that everyone has access. To someone to support them at home, and I'm going to even go even a little

Brandon Podcast Recording: 34:00

further,

Tami: 34:01

Or that they should why do we send kids to school for eight hours and then want them to go work more

Brandon: 34:11

Mm hmm.

Tami: 34:11

when there are other opportunities for them to learn and engage? And maybe that's spending time with their family. Maybe they're trying to do a job. There's so many other things that can happen outside of that. Time where I think there's just this narrative of homework and you need to have homework because we've always had homework And how do we you know, learn if you don't have homework you learn in the

Brandon Podcast Recording: 34:36

classroom

Tami: 34:36

I would encourage you to reflect on is that even important

Brandon Podcast Recording: 34:39

like the

Tami: 34:40

why behind why you're doing homework, and I think that's the hard part, too, even for English teachers,

Brandon: 34:44

Mm hmm.

Tami: 34:45

I have an unpopular opinion cause I

Brandon Podcast Recording: 34:48

either studied literacy and reading,

Tami: 34:49

I was a ELA teacher, not everyone is going to love to read.

Brandon: 34:53

Yeah.

Tami: 34:54

And not everyone is going to be a, reader for fun, people like reading. different things and choose to spend their time in different things. Now, are we giving them access to choose to be able to do that? And the skills to be able to do that if they

Brandon Podcast Recording: 35:05

want to

Tami: 35:05

to for reading or math and are we checking our bias? When it comes to reading and math, because also, we think certain students, girls, students of color are not good at math, not smart at math,

Brandon: 35:20

Mm hmm. Mm

Brandon Podcast Recording: 35:21

right? Or we

Tami: 35:22

over interrupt students that we feel need support versus letting them,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 35:29

work on the learning. Productively struggle through. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yes.

Tami: 35:34

There's so much research about how often students that are trying to have productive struggle

Brandon Podcast Recording: 35:40

that

Tami: 35:41

are perceived to be quote unquote lower level learners are interrupted then students that are quote unquote perceived to be high learners, they're not interrupted and they're allowed to like work through that thinking process.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 35:52

Yeah,

Brandon: 35:52

Yeah. Absolutely.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 35:55

I'm glad that came up in this

Brandon: 35:56

podcast. That's something else you all should Google if you're a STEM teacher. Productive struggle, Math trauma, Math anxiety, the learning pit. Those are all things that you could, that could really

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:06

you could,

Brandon: 36:06

and I'm glad

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:07

teaching and,

Brandon: 36:08

this podcast. making your class more accessible, especially if you are frustrated right now. It's probably because your kids aren't giving enough time to productively struggle. That's the only way to learn something. That's how we learn how to drive,

Tami: 36:21

Yeah.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:21

unfortunately, that's

Brandon: 36:23

that's how I learned how to drive.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:24

It is also a productive struggle being the parent in the seat. Let me tell you, I've

Tami: 36:31

done it twice now, Woo. but But yes, most things that is how trial and error and,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:41

everyone can relate to

Tami: 36:43

their parent or someone telling them, this is really the best advice and you

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:47

probably

Tami: 36:48

do X and you didn't choose X. You chose

Brandon Podcast Recording: 36:52

Y. Yep. Because

Tami: 36:54

you thought you knew better, but you learned something from that because, you didn't. So you're there to guide, you're a facilitator, you're, a guide that helps them move through the learning that is there for them.

Brandon: 37:06

Yeah, Even that is a shift, mathematics teaching is very lecture based. And I think it's okay, y'all, to just step back and let learning happen, and then jump in and facilitate as needed. That's still good teaching. You don't have to talk for 40 minutes, and that's how we learn, but like,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 37:28

that's just not, it's not, it can't happen. I know. I would say,

Tami: 37:33

you know who should be really tired at the end of the day? The students. The students should be tired at the end of the day because they've been engaging in the productive struggle, in the learning, right? They should be more tired than you.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 37:43

I

Brandon: 37:43

love that.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 37:44

Yeah,

Brandon: 37:44

absolutely.

Tami: 37:45

Wow. We've talked about a lot of really

Brandon: 37:48

Yeah.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 37:48

amazing things and

Tami: 37:51

So many, and I know we've dropped some resources and places to go look at. I'll grab all of those y'all for the show notes. So you can go back and

Brandon Podcast Recording: 37:59

find them,

Tami: 38:00

Cause I want you to go use them cause these are good tools, tips, and tricks. I Want to think about, Brandon, what's your next step and one tip takeaway that you want to share with the listeners? Cheers. Cheers.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 38:13

Sure.

Brandon: 38:13

So I think my next step is, my blackness is it's on me, right? You can see like, Oh, he's black. And so it was easy to lean into that work. I think I want to embrace my queerness, right. As a gay male And, and I'm in a position of influence. And so how can I help shift minds to understand those microaggressions? Because I mean, I still hear kids say that's gay or they throw out the F slur like it's candy, like it's a parade. Everyone gets

Brandon Podcast Recording: 38:46

go

Brandon: 38:46

in the hall. Everyone's called that and especially our male to male and that's, and they're friends. They just, that is how they talk to each other. They don't think it's bad. And so I really want to

Brandon Podcast Recording: 38:57

Encourage

Brandon: 38:58

myself to do the work, especially for our trans brothers

Brandon Podcast Recording: 39:01

sisters,

Brandon: 39:02

and, you know, like pronouns, we all At this point in education, we all have pronouns in our signature. but what does it really mean? If someone

Brandon Podcast Recording: 39:10

were to ask me,

Brandon: 39:11

why do you have pronouns in your, in your signature? I probably couldn't give them an eloquent answer. And so I need to do more, Soul searching, I suppose more research. And that's okay. Don't be afraid. That's the biggest tip. Don't be afraid to admit I don't know, let me go think about that. I need to figure out. Why I don't know about that lens of D. E. I. And I think that's okay. Teachers were learners. And the reason that we're great at our job is because we're great at, taking what we know and telling it to other people. And I think with D. E. I. You don't have to have a D. I. Lesson. But all the examples we shared in this podcast are ways you can infuse it into your teaching and into your life. And so, even if you don't think you have diversity in your life, you do, everyone has something unique about themselves. You're from

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:03

from a small

Brandon: 40:03

town, and now you're teaching at a city. People can't relate to that small town mentality, so teach them about that, because when they graduate, they might move to a

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:11

a small

Brandon: 40:12

town. Your gender, your gender identity, we're all different. So, I, don't be afraid to Share some of that because you're going to reach someone who probably hasn't been seen yet.

Tami: 40:23

Oh, I love that. Yes,

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:26

I love that.

Tami: 40:26

By sharing yourself, you provide space for others to also be seen.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:31

Yeah. Awesome.

Tami: 40:32

Awesome.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:33

And that's okay. You're not,

Brandon: 40:35

not against the law.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:38

It is not. It is

Tami: 40:40

not. None of this is against the law. None

Brandon: 40:42

None of it's

Tami: 40:43

of it is. Well, Brandon, I want to thank you so much for joining me today and having this great conversation. Listeners I'm going to drop those references in the show notes so you can access them. Please go

Brandon Podcast Recording: 40:57

check out Brandon's

Tami: 40:58

Instagram page. Cause he's also just told you

Brandon Podcast Recording: 41:01

that it

Tami: 41:01

is public, so you can check it out. And if you have any questions or want to get started with some DEI work, please reach out to me and schedule

Brandon Podcast Recording: 41:10

time.

Tami: 41:10

And remember, share this podcast with your educator friends and use your voice.

Brandon Podcast Recording: 41:14

Thanks, Brandon.

Brandon: 41:15

Thank you.