Hello and welcome to Special Needs Mom's Circle of Strength podcast. I am here with Cheryll Wagner.
Cheryll, I'm so glad to have you here. We are excited to continue this conversation. So, I just want to tell you a little bit about Cheryll. Cheryll has been riding the entrepreneurial wave since she was 13 years old. Cheryll became a special needs mom at the age of 21. Her two grown sons both have special needs and being their mom has taught her more than any MBA program ever could. Two years ago, both of her boys moved out on their own with supports. Last year, Cheryll and her husband became therapeutic foster parents because they know that they can make a difference in the lives of these kiddos.
Cheryll is the woman behind BYO Business Strategy and Consulting. Cheryll focuses on workshops, mentorship, business consulting and masterminds that are geared towards women in business. Cheryll's mission is to help entrepreneurs turn their dreams into reality. Specifically, Cheryll helps women entrepreneurs smash their personal roadblocks when it comes to the imposter within and growing into confident entrepreneurs willing to bet on themselves. So, Cheryll, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much, Valerie. I am so excited to be here. And I have to say because we both saw each other in the video and you recognized me. And it's been 19 years since we've seen each other because I used to live in Calgary and our kiddos were in the same program. So how amazing is that? Right? Like, it's such a small world. There's what, 30 some million people in Canada, but yet we, the podcast I come on, it's yours. It's so fabulous.
Well, Cheryl, it's just amazing to be reunited. I recall when I was reading through your information that you submitted for the podcast and I'm thinking the diagnosis of these boys that seems kind of familiar. And then when we popped on, it's just like, I think it's you. It is, so yay!
So amazing. So yes, we are definitely going to be doing more catching up for sure. So exciting. So many things have happened. 19 years is a long time in the special needs journey, especially for our kiddos, you know? And sometimes it can be very slow and sometimes it just picks up pace and they're graduated and grownups and all that stuff. And then you got to figure out what to do with them after that.
So, Cheryll, I ask all my guests, what's one unique thing about you that you'd like to share?
I think it's the fact that I've been a special needs mom for 24 years and I still chose to become a therapeutic caregiver afterwards. My boys had moved out two years ago now, actually, we're just, June 1st is actually going to be the two year mark. And after a year, it was, I just felt like it was time to, you know, be able to help some other kiddos. I had some experience with having a kiddo live with me a few years back and it was unofficial, it wasn't through the ministry or anything, but he was 17 years old and he had a lot of struggles. And about five years after he lived with me, he actually committed suicide. And I thought to myself, you know, if I could have helped him sooner, if I could have got to him sooner, maybe that outcome would have been different. So I actually, I do this in his name. I do this in Kia's name. He was a very special young man. And it's not an easy journey. The kids are challenging, you know, they're coming from all sorts of walks of life, all sorts of trauma, but I just keep him in the back of my mind and say, like, I'm doing this for you. I can do this. I know I can do this. So that's what the journey's been for the last nine months and counting. So, I would say that's probably the unique thing about me being an entrepreneur and a foster mom.
Wow. That's just a beautiful story and amazing that your heart has the capacity to raise your own two boys with their unique needs and with their disabilities, and then come back and give back to the community by bringing in foster children. And as you mentioned, I have actually a coaching client right now who is a foster parent. And she has been sharing some of the challenges she is dealing with with these, she has two little ones. And my heart is going out to you, kudos, hats off. And I just am so grateful that your hearts are big enough and have the capacity to love on other children that have bigger challenges than what we've been used to.
Thank you. Thank you.
All right. So, Cheryll, tell us a little about your special needs mom journey.
My journey. Well, it started actually in San Diego, California. My ex-husband was in the US Navy down there. I was a 20-year-old pregnant and all that. And I actually got stuck up in Canada for a while and then back down there. So, I had my son up in Canada and I didn't know he was special needs at that point. When he was born, he was floppy, but it wasn't an obvious special needs. And it wasn't until I was sitting in the living room with three other Navy wives with their babies. One was a month younger than mine and one was a month older than mine. The one that was younger than mine was lifting his head, laying on his belly, lifting his head. And the five-month-old was trying to crawl, commando crawl. And my little guy was just laying there. He couldn't lift his head. He was just laying on his stomach, couldn't do anything. And it was then that I really started to suspect that there was something wrong. And two months later, it was confirmed. I was sitting in the doctor's office at the Belbow and Naval Medical Clinic and they informed me that my son was extra special. And we didn't know what it meant. We didn't know what he had, what the problem was, but they just knew that he was developmentally delayed.
And a couple months later, I had a neurologist told me that he would never sit up, he would never walk, he would never run, he would, nothing. It was like the most bleak diagnosis that I could have ever got. And I said to him, you know what? My God is a lot bigger than you are. My son will be walking one day, thank you very much. Don't put limitations on him. And it was, I believe it was that mindset that helped me get through the first few months of that because it was devastating. I had my mom tell me that she hated my f’ing God because of my son's diagnosis. And I said, why? He's beautiful.
He's a gift. And just because he's not going to be doing all these other things, it doesn't mean he's not exactly the way he's supposed to be. And in a lot of ways, I was trying to convince myself of that as well. It didn't truly sink into that until a couple years later. You tell yourself something long enough and you believe it. But that doesn't mean that there still wasn't those resentments and the anger and all those things that boiled up over time, especially seeing all the other kids running around playing.
Yeah, yeah. I certainly can relate to the devastation of the diagnosis with Melody Anne, our oldest, who's now 22, it's hard to believe I'm the mother of two adults now. She was born with a prolapse cord. So, my husband and I had both worked healthcare. We had both done intensive care units. So, it wasn't a big deal when we saw Melody Anne on a ventilator, we just had to see people on them. We've seen people get off them. And it took about 24 hours, I think, for the diagnosis, the actual reality of what we were gonna be facing to actually sink in. And we were given a year. The prognosis was a year for Melody Anne. And they just said, her respiratory system is weak. She's likely gonna die of pneumonia.
And they gave her a year. And so I can appreciate the devastation of number one, as you, parents for the first time, now we're parents of a child with special needs. And now we're parents of a child that's not gonna live past a year. So that was a lot to take in. So, I can certainly appreciate and empathize with you, Cheryll, that devastation of my kid's not gonna do this, this, this, and this. And I love that you turned inward and reached out to God and utilized that inner resilience to, we're gonna get through this, no matter what we're gonna get through this. So I just want to applaud you for having that resilience and doing what you did.
Thank you, thank you. It really has been a journey. It has been an amazing experience. And boy, has it taught me a lot of things and resilience. Like if you're not resilient after being a special needs mom, you're doing it wrong!
(Laughs)
As I tell you, it takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength. It takes patience. It takes perseverance and advocating for your children. Because if you don't advocate for your kids, nobody's gonna advocate for your kids. It's the sad system that we have. And we really need to push and be the squeaky wheel to get what we need for them. And, I've always been really good at being the squeaky wheel
(Laughs)
And getting what I need from my kids. So I think that's the big lesson, be the squeaky wheel, we have to. And also don't listen to the naysayers. In your case, your daughter's 22 years old. In my case, my kids are running around, they've joined Special Olympics and they're playing soccer and all these things. And I balled my eyes out when my son, my oldest son walked the aisle for graduation. He walked up the aisle. And then he sat very still the entire onstage. And that was the hardest thing he ever did because he's a wiggly little dude. So, and I was so proud. But I was also, I had had a hysterectomy like the previous week to his graduation.
Oh my.
And I had an infection and I was actually hospitalized. The night before his graduation. And I sobbed to my OB-GYN and I said, "I have to be there, you don't understand."
(Laughs)
This is a huge accomplishment. So, she pumped me full of pain meds and antibiotics. And I was in a wheelchair and I was at my son's graduation. And I tell you what, I was so proud. I was sobbing. My husband, my new husband was looking at me like I was crazy. It was just so proud.
Oh, I can totally, totally relate. Oh my goodness. Because each milestone that our children reach is, I want to say like a thousand times a thousand X what it would be for a neurotypical child. So, a little milestone, no matter how big, no matter how small, any milestone needs to be celebrated. And that's one of the things I tell my clients, everything, we celebrate every little thing that they do, that they've accomplished, because it's taken grit for them to get. I can only appreciate and only imagine what it must have been for your son to walk that aisle.
Oh, absolutely. And you know, Valerie, talking about celebrating every milestone, I called every single person in my phone book when my son picked up an animal cracker and brought it to his mouth. He was like almost two years old. And I was so proud.
(Laughs)
Yeah, we celebrate the very minute, the minuscule things that are huge, right? And it's joy, you know, like there's so much joy in that because you know how long it took to get there. You know the physical therapy and the occupational therapy and the speech therapy, all that stuff. You know how many hours and how many tears it took to get them there. So yeah, you celebrate and you don't be ashamed to celebrate. You scream it loud and you celebrate the heck out of it.
(Laughs)
Amen sister, amen sister.
Amen.
(Laughs)
All right. So Cheryll, I love this statement that you made to me earlier. My sons are not defined by their disability but are definitely limited by it. Can you just explain a little bit more about that?
Yeah, absolutely. We've always held strong that we are not living Joubert syndrome. So that's what my boys have. They have Joubert syndrome, but they are not their syndrome. They are not defined by it. I don’t, they don't go to the conferences for it. And it's beautiful that people have made wonderful friendships and everything they do. And it's a very strong circle of strength for people. So I don't discount that. I chose to keep my kids focused on their abilities and it's just one little fraction. Their syndrome is just one little fraction of who they are.
Yes.
But in society it limits them. They don't get the opportunities. They don't get to go to college and university and take the courses and do all those things. So they are limited by that. I want to shake my neurotypical friends' kids when they're just like, "Oh, I don't want to do that. I can do..." They have all these options available to them and they just squander them as like, you have no idea how fortunate you are to have those opportunities. And there's so many people that do not have that opportunity and they would kill to have that kind of opportunity. My youngest hates having a disability and it has really affected his mental health. I would say since he was 15 years old, he's really struggled with his mental health and accepting his disability. He doesn't like the limitations of it. The friendships that he tries to make with neurotypical people always blow up. And the ones that do friend him are generally manipulative, controlling, like they want a little puppet. So it's really, really difficult for him to make friends. Right? So I really kick myself. And this is some of the advice that I will give to parents. If you have a Special Olympics program in your community or close to your community, sign your kids up. Get them... There's programs for like two years old. Sign them up because it is a game changer for making friends past high school. Because once they get out of high school, they have very limited friends in high school. But once they get out of high school, it is so much worse. Because now all even the connections that they had in passing are gone. They get lonely, they get isolated and no matter how much you try to help them as the parents, we can't make their friends for them. And so, putting them into opportunities like Special Olympics where there's other people, all ranges of intellectual disability and sometimes physical disabilities, they're able to make natural friendships and deep, really deep. And it's just been like a week and a half. And my son is just... I haven't seen him smile this much in years. It's so wonderful. And I just kicked myself. And I know I can't punish myself for my wisdom now for the past, right? But I am saying go and sign your kids up for Special Olympics, don't wait.
Yeah.
Find those programs because in the long run, it is going to enhance their lives so much.
Awesome, love that. I have an episode that I did with my sister-in-law. We have a nephew who has autism and has been doing Special Olympics swimming. So that was an episode a few weeks ago that we aired. And it's just been a game changer for my nephew, Landon, to be able to swim. Number one, he was fearful of water. So he overcame his fear of water, learned to swim. And not only did he learn to swim, but he's an Olympic hopeful, like he's doing so well with it. Wow. And the friendships that he's made. He was one representative in the Canada games from, the only one from Nova Scotia. So had to travel and do all of that. And so it's just been an amazing accomplishment for him, number one, but just the experience for him too.
Well, and they're able to travel without their mom there. You know, like as adults, right? They're able to go on these trips because that's the biggest thing. They want to be independent. They don't want mom hanging around and chugging along behind them. They don't want that. Who does at 24 years old and 22 years old?
Exactly. E.xactly
Right? The more independence that we can give them in a safe way, the better it is for them in the long run.
Absolutely.
Pushing them to do, actually pushing the schools to make them try as hard as they can instead of just saying, it's okay. You don't have to do that. That is my other big regret, is that I just let them do the easiest IEPs with my kids instead of pushing them and trying to get them in more of the regular programs. It hurt them in the end. You know, yep, it was easier for everybody involved at the time, but now we're paying the price for that. Because now we have to teach them that, yes, you don't just get to give up on your job. You don't just get to not show up because you don't feel like it. Because they never had to do that in school because they would always, there would be an excuse waiting for them to just bow out. As soon as things got hard. So, push, just keep pushing. The same way that you spend the hours of therapy with them before school starts, you know, before they get in there, spend the time and push for them to be treated as independently as they can in school.
Absolutely. No, I totally agree because at the end of the day, the dream is, and this is where I guess you and I may differ from some other parents and no judgment whatsoever. I think if we raise the bar for our kids, they rise to it. When I think of Melody Anne, when she was little, and we were told she was only gonna live a year, once we got past that first year, we decided that, you know what, let's just see where she can go. Let's just push the envelope a little bit. So we just challenged her. She met every challenge. And so we just kept raising the bar. And so that was our impetus to when she got to school, was to demand that they don't just babysit her. I didn't want her to just be babysat. I wanted her to learn. And the other thing, particularly for our child, we had to have the teachers understand, and this took a little bit of time. She might not respond like a typical child when you say, "Can you tell me your timestable? Let's go from, I'm showing my age now." She might not respond to that, but she'll show you in her own way, in her own time. Just treat her like she's taking in everything you're telling her and just keep moving along.
Absolutely.
That's my oldest one. My younger one, we at grade five, grade six, realized something else was going on. So this particular child was then diagnosed with ADHD. And then two years ago, when they were 17, we got a diagnosis of high-functioning autism. And so even though they're 19 now, they didn't get through high school. They didn't graduate last year, but we're going to graduation soon. We had my husband and I, even though they're an adult, went to the school and demanded that they acknowledge and adhere to the accommodations that we'd asked for and make sure this child gets to graduate this year. So, sometimes you have to be that mama bear, right? And sometimes I look at-
Absolutely.
I don't like what I'm looking at, but at the same time, we fight for our kids. So there's no shame in standing up for your kids, pushing for your kids, and having your child be pushed as well. Because I've always said, "We're a team." We're working together as a team. This is not parents against teachers here. This is us working together for the good of our child to help them reach their academic potential. Every child deserves that.
100%, absolutely. They may not all work at the same level, but 100% is 100%.
If it's 100% of their effort, then they're giving 100%. And it's just at their level. And if you're only ever pushing them to 50%, how do you grow? How do they get outside of that box? They can't. I always said, "We enable our child, we don't disable them." And I know it's a different way to use the word enable, but it's like, yeah, we encourage you to be all that you can be, to try, to fall, get back up, try again. Yep, it might've hurt, but guess what? You probably won't fall the next time. It’s one of those things that, if we can impart any of our wisdom on the younger generation of moms that are coming up with these new babies, that they're scared is that, there's hope at the end, but there's steps that you can take on the journey to ensure that there's a better outcome for your child when they become an adult. Because I tell you, once they turn 19, the services all stop, as far as the help from the government and all that thing, for supports and stuff, for the most part. So, it's making sure that they are equipped.
And I have to say, sending my kids out on their own was scary. It was really scary, allowing them to move out into an apartment by themselves, while they're together. But without me overtop helicopter parenting, because I've tried really hard not to, but how do you not when you're still changing bottoms at nine years old, right? It's really difficult to not helicopter parent to special needs child, but the more you can allow them to experience things without you, the stronger they will be.
Yeah, absolutely. So you'd mentioned launching your children and I have launched my oldest as well, but tell us, how did you pull that out for your boys?
Oh,
(Laughs)
So, we moved out to the country two years prior and it was like right at the beginning of COVID. So I told them two years, you have two years and we're going to try, we're gonna get you on the list because they really wanted to live independently.
So at the two year mark, it was two years to the day, they signed the lease on their apartment. And it was one of those things that we just kept working with them and getting them to be a little bit more independent, doing a little bit more cooking, but they have a support worker that comes in a couple of times a week and she helps them do some cleaning, the stuff that's harder for them. She helps them do some meal preparation so they're not just taking the easy way out and eating Kraft dinner or going to Subway, whatever it is, right? So it's getting them to make some healthy meals and stuff that are saved up so that when they don't feel like cooking, they still have a healthier choice than Ramen noodles. But, and you know, it's funny because I look at it and go, you know what? There's lots of 24- and 22-year-olds that are eating Ramen noodles and they're eating Kraft dinner and all these things, I don't need to micromanage this. They're gonna be okay, they're not starving, but that is hard. It is a self-talk process. It really is difficult to cut some of those apron strings on the control. I do struggle with it all the time, especially my youngest. He has no money management skills whatsoever, so I do have to really manage what he gets because it'll be spent within five minutes of him getting it. So I do help him to manage his money. But for the most part, you know, it's a matter of, here, here's 50 bucks spending money this week. That's all you got. So whatever you choose to spend it on, that's up to you, but know that that's the well dries up at the end of that.
Great,
So yeah, it's lessons like that, you know? So working with your kids to build some money management skills early, you know, so that they have a little bit of an understanding of what things cost. Don't just fill the cart, but explain things to them as they're growing up because they do glean, they're not gonna glean all the information all the time, but if you repeat it often enough, they soak it in.
Yeah, something will stick for sure. So I'm just gonna take you back for a second. Do you mention that the boys got on a list? What list are you talking about?
Oh, okay, so they are, well, they're on a couple of lists, but they're on a housing subsidy list. We're still on the wait list for that. And then we've just got them in a regular apartment right now, but we have them on a list for a different type of housing as well. And if that comes available, then we'll look at that time, whether or not where they're at is working or if they should change situations. So the biggest thing is, is, you know, there are two brothers that fight and they don't really wanna live together anymore. So it's really imperative with the cost of housing that they're able to get some rental subsidy on top of their disability so that they can live independently away from each other. But so it's a long list though, you know, it's a long wait. We've been on the list now for a year. It's probably going to be at least another year before even one of them gets on there. Cause here's the thing, there's no more funding. One person has to leave in order for them to get it. So it's like, they're not offering more services. They're not offering more help. They're just waiting for somebody to fall off the end of the list. So it is a problem, right? For these kids, how can they afford $1,800 a month apartments? And that's, you know, on the low side for a lot of places. So it's no wonder so many kids end up just staying living at home. And parents are overwhelmed and they don't get the support that they need.
Okay. Now I just wanna skip back to the support worker. You mentioned that your boys have a support worker that just kind of helps to help the boys keep the place tidy and clean and that they're eating sensibly. And so tell me about the support worker. Who funds that? How did that happen? Did you have to find your own support worker?
Yeah. So in British Columbia, we have something called CLBC. It's Community Living of British Columbia and it's for special needs. So once you age out of the “At Home Program” in BC, then you move on to this CLBC program and they provide, they can provide respite. They can provide different support services. But again, you're on a list and there has to be room on it. So they were on a list for quite a while. And then we got the relief support. So initially it was respite for when they were living at home, but now we've transitioned it to community support. So, we get $700 a month basically between the two of them in order to have somebody come in. And I opted to hire privately because it stretches a lot further if you're managing it yourself.
I can get 24 hours out of that amount rather than 12 hours or six hours in that month, right? So, it's a huge difference if you're trying to hire a program or the different support services out there, if it's a program, it's much cheaper and you get more bang for your buck if you do it yourself. And there usually is that option. You just have to jump through a few hoops and make sure you're filling out the paperwork properly and everything, but it's worth it.
Yeah. So similar to, us in Alberta, where it would be called self-managed care.
Yes.
Where? Yes. You basically get some funding and then you can manage where it goes, how it goes and you sort of decide who's gonna work for you. And it's almost like you're a little business and you're self-employed and you're employing somebody. Yeah.
Exactly. Yes.
Okay. All right. So I just wanna share too that we have launched our oldest child. So our home was wheelchair accessible because our child is in a wheelchair, which will be permanent. And we were at a place where it's like, we need to have something that's sustainable because bringing caregivers into your home, we'd done that for so many years, worked fairly well. We had one that we had for six and a half years, which was great. And then she decided to leave. So long story short, we were able to launch Melody Anne into her forever home. And the beautiful thing was she got to stay where she lives. And my husband and I, and our youngest, we moved out because this home was wheelchair accessible. So we have an agency that provide 24 hour care. And we have two of the young ladies that have moved in with her. So those are our housemates. And it has been six years now. So a lot of mom guilt around letting go at 16, which I've talked about in other episodes before, but she is doing amazing. And she has developed and grown and it's just been beautiful to see her growing in independence. And so that's kind of how we worked that, what do you do when they're 19?
(Laughs)
When they become an adult and looking forward or looking future to what it's gonna look like for their care. And one thing I'm just gonna quickly say is, if you are looking at different options for future care, start early. The earlier the better. We left it until we were in crisis, which is not a great space, time and place to be in to make big major decisions for your children. So I would definitely encourage anyone in the audience, if you're thinking about what you want future care to look like for your child, start thinking early.
Absolutely.
And I’ll answer any questions.
No, that's right. And the mom guilt is a real thing, absolutely. But burnout is also a real thing. And if you're just being mom and you're being wife and you're not actually, if you don't have any piece of you that you're still hanging onto, it is critical that you find a piece of you to hold onto and just work on that and take the time for that. If it's a hobby, if it's going to the gym, you have to do things for yourself. Because you know what? I was a much better mom when I started taking time for myself. I was so much more patient. I was more loving. I was less argumentative. Just all these things, right? Because when your stress is so heightened and you have no break and you have no wiggle room or way out or just like, this is my life, it can get a wee bit daunting because there's all these resentments that you build up when you see everybody else living life and their kids running across the park and playing baseball and all these things. And your kid is just sitting there or whichever, not able to participate. There's a lot of feelings that come up with that. And honestly, my best outlet was definitely working out and lifting weights. There's a lot of healthy endorphins that are released for that. And it really helps to move that resentment, that anger out of your body.
So yeah, I highly recommend. And you don't have to feel guilty about it. You don't have to feel guilty about needing it. You don't have to feel guilty for wanting it. And it's funny because I was having a nap about a month ago and I had this guilt where I was like, why do I feel guilty because I'm having a nap in the middle of the day right? Because it's been a long time since I've needed one. But now that I have foster kids, I'm finding I'm needing more naps. But I really had to analyze like, why is it that I feel guilty that I'm having a nap? And it stems to that, like you shouldn't need a nap. You're supposed to just push on through your spot. You've got all these things to do, all these things. Well, if you don't take care of yourself, you're gonna burn out.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, have the nap.
(Laughing)
Have the nap. Have the cake, all that stuff.
Whatever you need to do.
Take care of yourself.
Yeah, I do appreciate you saying, take care of yourself and don't feel guilty about taking care of your needs because we all know, we've heard this saying a million times, you can't give them an empty cup. You have to fill your cup before you can give. And yes, you're right. You just learn to keep going, keep going, keep going. And then you run into burnout and it's not pretty. Been there, done that, it is not pretty. So take the time. This is what I'm saying to my clients, take the time. And this is why I'm starting a new program called Time Out. You need a Time Out too, mom. And we look at T being time optimization, I being inner peace, M being me time, and E being energy. And there's lots of different things we can do to improve or increase our energy. So check out my website for more information on my time.
I love that. That is fantastic. And more of those programs needed to be around when we were younger.
Right?
When we were new moms. Yes, exactly.
Yeah. Exactly.
That's amazing.
So Cheryll, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Before we conclude our conversation, I'd love to hear some words of encouragement from you to other moms and parents who are raising kids with special needs.
Yeah, so I actually, I have something written because I had started writing a book, you know, in 2013. I have not finished it.
(Laughing)
And I thought, I revisited it the other day. I thought, you know what? I should do like an update on this. And it's like a timeline thing for where I'm at now. But, so one of the things I had wrote was when things don't turn out the way that we expect them to, we have to step back and take a new approach. Your life may not be as you envisioned, but it is your life. How you choose to take it on is up to you. If you accept personal responsibility for how you respond to your situation, the negative emotions will lose their hold over you. And you can play the victim or you can become the victor of your circumstances. It's important to recognize the injustice that you feel, but it's equally important to release these feelings from your life. It involves looking at your own behavior and accepting responsibility for your own actions. And the decision is yours and yours alone to make. So we can't control our circumstances. We can't control the things that have happened to us, but we can control how we respond to them and how we move forward. And I think that's really critical. And moving forward with a focus in mind of how do I maintain my energy? How do I take time for myself? Like you were saying, it is critical to being a special needs mom, to being a good, well-balanced special needs mom that isn't about to break down.
Exactly, exactly. Well, Cheryl, again, thank you so much. It's been so good to reconnect and I'm looking forward to catching up about how our children are doing. Gosh, it's 19 years have flown by, let me tell you. But yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing more.
Excellent. Thank you so much, Valerie. And I look forward to catching up as well. It's been a blast.
(Laughing)
All right, so I just want to remind our audience to Live with Intention and Embrace the Journey.
