MONEY Mastery and MENTAL Peace | The Breaking Point Podcast UK #42

Have you ever hit the pause button on your career path, wondering if there's more to life than the daily grind? Our guest, Victoria Mortimer, the Unlikely Accountant, did just that, and her story is nothing short of inspiring. From the high-pressure environment of Deloitte to the fast-paced world of KFC's commercial finance team, Victoria's career journey took an introspective turn during the lockdown, leading to the creation of her podcast centred on financial empowerment and the pursuit of happiness.

Join us for a conversation that peels back the layers of professional development in an era where remote work challenges our capacity for meaningful connections and growth. Victoria, with her refreshing candour, offers invaluable insights into breaking money taboos and fostering a culture of financial literacy that's vital for mental well-being. Whether you're navigating salary negotiations, tackling gender pay gaps, or needing strategies for mindful spending, our discussion is an eye-opener on asserting your worth and making informed financial choices.

To cap off, Victoria delves into personal anecdotes about embracing minimalism for mental clarity, the real cost of fast fashion, and the delicate balance between career satisfaction and life's joys. Her bold career moves, including a leap into a startup and a venture selling innovative chocolate, are testaments to following one's passion. Every anecdote and piece of advice she shares is a potential stepping stone towards a more empowered, balanced, and fulfilling life!

We hope you ENJOY the EPISODE!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Breaking Point Podcast UK. Today we're here with Victoria Mortimer, or the Unlikely Accountant, and we're going to have a bit of a bit of a different one for me, I guess, because it's probably not going to be very, very mental health based. It's going to be more, I don't know, navigating life and stuff and sort of for young people. That's sort of what I'm hoping to get out of this sort of finances and stuff. I'm hoping we can get some good information out of Victoria. So, hey, victoria, how you doing today?

Speaker 2: 0:35

I'm good, thanks for having me how did you get into accountancy?

Speaker 2: 0:45

Yeah, good question. So I think, like a lot of people, when they sort of leave uni they end up just falling into things. It was maybe a bit more deliberate than that. So I really wanted to work for a big company. I felt like I wanted to be on a grad scheme and have sort of very set career progression. I actually really wanted to work in New York. I always had this idea that that's where I wanted to work at some point in the future. So in my mind I thought, oh, if I join a global organization that has an office there, maybe that's, you know, one way of making it to New York.

Speaker 2: 1:17

And when I was at uni I was president of the Business Society in Deloitte, where our main sponsor. So I got to know a lot of the guys there quite well and they all seemed very nice and Deloitte was a global organization. So I thought, oh, you know, maybe I'll apply to work there then. So I applied to work in corporate finance because I'd done some sort of corporate strategy modules as part of my degree. And, yeah, one of the things when you work there is that they make you become an accountant. So I kind of didn't necessarily set out to be an accountant, but by virtue of working there, um, I had to become a qualified accountant. Um which I mean. On the one hand, it is great I remember someone when they were trying to sell the role to me that if you're a chartered accountant, you've got job security for life, which I quite like the sound of that um and you, you know it's a globally recognized thing and it is, you know, it's great on your CV.

Speaker 2: 2:10

It kind of gets you an interview at most places because people recognize that it's hard to get and it's a great qualification. But it was kind of thrust upon me and if I'd have had the choice to opt out I probably would have done at the time because I didn't really want to be an accountant per se and sort of had the nature of my podcast.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Yeah, is it right that you wanted to work in fashion in New York?

Speaker 2: 2:38

That was it. I wanted to work in fashion in New York. That's what I wanted to do. Instead, I just ended up as an accountant working in Manchester at the time. So I so I did what a lot of people do and I did my four years, which is how long it takes you to qualify as a chartered accountant, and then I got straight out of there.

Speaker 2: 2:55

I think I was a typical millennial that felt like I wanted to have my cake and eat it, and the work-life balance in corporate finance wasn't, um, wasn't very good, shall we say? Um see, you know, the hours are very long, um, and unpredictable, and I just couldn't hack it. I just I like sleep too much. Um, I mean, yeah, then we can come back to maybe mental health and and those kind of topics later, because I am big on that, that side of stuff as well, and for me, a good night's sleep is a good night's sleep, is everything, and you couldn't get that, um, do you know? Working in that kind of role.

Speaker 2: 3:28

So I left there and then I went to work for ksc at the head office. So I was in the commercial finance team and that, believe it or not, I'd never eaten a ksc until I, until I worked there, and then I think I ate enough ksc in those two and a half years to basically last me a lifetime. Yeah, um, so yeah, that that was a fun job and worked on, um, you know, lots of interesting things and got exposure to a lot of stuff and exposure to a lot of fried chicken as well, um, and then I left there and then I went to um Charles Tyrrett, who you might know is that they do the men's shirt, so men's, uh, men's, formal wear, um, so they were similar to tm lumen, if you've heard of them, I mean tm lumen yeah, so don't tm um anymore, but but charles terrett definitely do um, so yeah, so I worked there for about six years and then covid happened and then that was just a bit, you know, weird time for everybody.

Speaker 2: 4:20

I got furloughed um which yes which is great actually, because I was getting hey, I was still getting paid to not work, um which yeah yeah, it was great.

Speaker 2: 4:32

I've never been in that position before, um, so I had time to, yes, start my podcast and and read a lot and just explore lots of other interests. And I think it made me realize, um, that when you're not in an office environment which obviously I was we all got sent to work from home. I think when you're left with just the work at home, it sort of highlighted to me that maybe it wasn't the most fulfilling thing in the world.

Speaker 2: 4:57

You know, playing around with spreadsheets all day I'm not trying to do myself a disservice of what I was doing but it didn't feel that rewarding and and and I just felt like I wanted to do something different.

Speaker 2: 5:07

So then I went to the other end of the spectrum and went to a small company called potage, which is essentially a startup um, so a frozen food business that delivered, um, frozen ready meals direct to your, to your front door, so like the hello fresh kind of idea, sort of delivered foods, um, and it was a much smaller business, but it was a great opportunity to just be, just be way more hands-on with, like, the running of the business and actually feel what it's like to almost be an entrepreneur without the risk of it being your, your money, although I was the finance director, so it was still my responsibility, but you know what is it like to run a business and you know getting used to making decisions and making lots of decisions.

Speaker 2: 5:48

You know, every day there was a different problem that you had to solve and it was actually a really good um lesson in you know how resourceful you are and a real test of your sort of practical capabilities. Um, which, yeah, which I enjoyed, and it was just different challenges to, rather than the mental challenges of fanning around in spreadsheets. It was very hands-on, practical stuff, which was a change which I quite enjoyed. And now we're at another startup that makes chocolate, but without cocoa, so it's called Witter Wink Tooth Lab.

Speaker 1: 6:22

You mentioned something about working from home. There's a lot of talk nowadays about because so many people work remotely, don't they? What's your opinion on working remotely, and do you think it's a net good or a net bad?

Speaker 2: 6:39

If I'm honest, I think it's net bad for a whole host of reasons. Um, I think and maybe I'll speak personally, but just having from conversations I've had with other people that do work at home, I think, um, what I hear is that people don't strike the balance. So you get the one camp of people that say, oh, when I work from home, I literally don't stop. I get to my desk first thing and I know, and I you know, I barely take a break because you're not going to like the water pool or whatever. You just you know, you're just at home, so there's natural breaks you get in the day when you're in an office you don't have, so you just change your desk all day. On the other side of the spectrum, I know people that will go to the cinema in the middle of the day because they can get away with it, because they're not that busy, and it's those sorts of people I think maybe ruin it for the genuine people. But I think, putting that aside, you know work ethic and how many hours you throw at something, I mean it's kind of irrelevant unless you're getting the job done. I think you know missing out on that social interaction with people, missing out on that opportunity to build relationships? Um, missing out on those opportunities to, you know, just just form a better working relationships with your colleagues, um, you, really, you just don't get that from home. Um, are you a person? You know, just person speaking I, you know I used to live on my own, um, so if I didn't go to work and I was working from home, you know I might not see another human being for for a couple of days, and I didn't mind even be on Zoom either. If it just works out that way and humans need connections and it's important.

Speaker 2: 8:09

And also, you know, for learning and development. You know you pick up so much on, you know people's tone and everyone's different as well. You know how you might speak to one colleague is not how you speak to somebody else, and I think you pick up on on those kind of things more quickly when you're, when you're in the office and you just, yeah, you miss out on on overhearing things. You know I learned a lot just from sitting in front of the finance director and just, um, you know, when I was at charles tyrry and just hearing the way that he dealt with things or the way he spoke to other people or you know that, that kind of thing. And I honestly cannot imagine a world where my grad job, for example, at Deloitte, um, starting that and working remotely, I just think it would have been been impossible.

Speaker 2: 8:58

And I think, coming back to the point as well, about, well, it doesn't matter how many hours you work, as long as you're getting the work done.

Speaker 2: 9:03

I think we've now maybe lost a sense of what's achievable in a day, because I do think a lot of people are at home, not, you know, working, working that, that hard, um, and you know that's. Maybe that's not true for everybody, but I just have observed plenty of people that that work at home and, uh, you know, that's it. But for me it's the social just element and the, the picking up on on how you learn and and and whatnot. And it kind of makes me sad now when I walk around london, and one of the reasons I always love london london is because of the, the hustle and bustle and the atmosphere and the busyness of it, um, and it doesn't quite feel the same sometimes, um, so yeah yeah, I definitely sort of pro and would advocate going into an office I agree, and especially for you know, as you stated, people sort of in their early 20s and stuff they definitely should be be they definitely should be in an office or in some form of work environment.

Speaker 1: 10:05

My, uh, I think maybe as you get older maybe 50s plus, it would probably be perfectly all right. And you, maybe you have that sort of residual like social contact with your family, or maybe you've had enough of people at that point in your life to some degree and therefore you're far more willing and are capable of working from home the majority of the time. I know, I mean, my dad works from home and he's worked from home for ages. He runs his own company and it can be isolating and if you're obviously an extrovert person, then it's going to be really difficult and they'll probably avoid it. But particularly for young people, I know some young people in their 20s that have been working from home and it just I just think it's it can't be good overall. Uh, your sort of lack of you know, as you said interaction and also it, yeah, so it's, it's a weird one. I don't really know where that goes.

Speaker 2: 11:07

Going forward, to be fair, yeah I think, I think for a lot of people as well, it's nice for you to just feel like you've got agency over your own time. So if you know, if you're, if you've got an employer and you know you don't own your own business, so you're always working for somebody, that's kind of calling the shots if you, if you at least have the, the autonomy and the flexibility to choose where you work, I, I, I see why that's a benefit, because you can just feel like you're um, yeah, you've just got, you've got a bit more control. So, and I get, for people that like have children and things like that, where they've got nursery drop-offs and pickups and things like that, if you've got to get to an office that's miles away, that's, that's really inconvenient. So having agency of your own time is really um, you know it's, it's, it's a nice perk um to have.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Uh, so I, I get that, but I think just the missing out on the interaction with, with other humans, I just I genuinely think that's um, that, that that's a shame, yeah, and especially for the younger generation that maybe aren't as well practiced at it. You know, it is a skill to deal with people. At the end of the day. That's what working's all about. People work with people. It doesn't really matter what your job or your industry is, um, and if you don't practice those social skills, then you're not going to get very good at them exactly, and more than ever.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Young people need that because they're more sort of isolated than ever, and not unfortunately. Let's talk about the podcast. When did you start that and why did you start?

Speaker 2: 12:40

yeah. So, um, I mentioned I got furloughed and, to be honest, I just thought, oh, my goodness, what am I going to do with all this time that I'm now going to have? Because at least work was provided a bit of a distraction during the day in lockdown, which I think a lot of people did, and I wanted to just try my hand at something different. I'd always kind of told myself I wasn't a creative person because I'm an accountant and you know, you can't be a creative person if you're a numbers person. That's just not how it is and I just thought I'll just give it a go and it can just be a hobby and maybe no one will listen to it except my mum, but at least it will, you know, keep me occupied, so I'm not doing anything else. So I went on google and just put how do you start a podcast? Um, and found out it's actually very easy to start a podcast. There's lots of different softwares out there. There was, um, uh, something called canva that you can use to do this of the creative side of things and yeah, it's, yeah, it's good, isn't it? Yeah, and it's like you know, whatever, um, and yeah. So so that was kind of just why, in general, starting a podcast.

Speaker 2: 13:53

And then I thought, okay, well, what am I then going to talk about? And I, you know, given what I do, just sort of, you know, working in finance and this other than the other, and also I'd also become a mental health first aider when I worked at Charles Tyrwhitt and for me, money worries are, you know, they're an enormous cause of of mental health problems. I know people that have suffered because they've, you know, gotten themselves into debt, for example, because they, you know, they've overspent and you know money's just at the heart of everything, and yet it's still quite a taboo topic quite a lot of the time. You know, I remember thinking, when I worked in KSC, which I mentioned, you know, I didn't know how much my manager earned, because why would I? I would never ask her and I just didn't know. But then I thought on reflection well, isn't that weird? Because how do I know if I want her job or not if I don't know what the salary is? And then you know other things in the workplace, where you find out that somebody that does the same role as you gets paid more than you, and you think, oh, okay, well, why, why is that and maybe I didn't push hard enough on on salary negotiations and it's partly because there's just a taboo around money and it is very emotional.

Speaker 2: 15:03

So my idea for the podcast was kind of let's try and just talk about those different topics and try and, um, you know, make them a bit less taboo and also, just, um, you know, try and encourage people to take an interest, because one, as well as being told that I'm not like a normal accountant, people will then also they'd either say that or they'd then say, oh, I couldn't do your job because I'm not a numbers person. And people are quite happy to say, oh, I'm not a numbers person because they didn't like maths at school. Um, and actually, you know, you can't really avoid numbers as a grown-up, because presumably you're going to get a job and you're going to get paid and you might have a credit card and you might want to invest or you might want to get a mortgage or do all these things, and they're all numbers based and they're not that scary. But if you fear them, then maybe you won't go go ahead with it.

Speaker 2: 15:50

And um, yeah, just personal experiences as well, and and those of my friends just made me think, okay, well, there's definitely something in this, in the topic, um. So yeah, so that's why I thought I'll just start a podcast trying to talk about those things. So like, how do you know, how do you get house, what, what you need to do to be a first-time buyer, um, how can I get myself out of debt? You know, what are some sort of tips and tricks from someone who's done that? Um started a business, what kind of things you need to consider?

Speaker 1: 16:21

um, yeah, and we'll get to all that in a bit of the podcast.

Speaker 1: 16:27

Yeah, yeah, no, it's great. I've listened to a few of the episodes, sort of skimmed through the you should, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, you should. Um, you should carry on doing it like you you've got. I mean I don't want to say you've got real potential, because who am I? But as in you know you, there are so many there, you've got. I mean, I don't want to say you've got real potential, because who am I? But as in you know you, there are so many there, you've got.

Speaker 1: 16:47

I think there's a huge demographic that would respond well to you. There's like there's loads and loads of young women, men, whatever people that would you know, relate to you, and they're probably in similar positions to you, are, they're working in, they've worked in, like corporate uh, situations and they're, you know, out of uni and they're struggling with what to do, etc. Etc. And you, I would, I would listen to a podcast with you host, definitely, uh. So, yeah, if you want to carry on doing it then then you're welcome. Yeah, so definitely, like, do it. If you want to pick up at some point, I would recommend it because I think you could. You, there's definitely a demographic and a niche there and you, you've got the. You're uh, you're likable enough to to uh keep it going so that that's right.

Speaker 2: 17:43

I appreciate that because, yeah, when you talk about financing things, it can sometimes be a bit like boring and depressing and daunting, and it really really doesn't have to be. You can still inject a bit of fun.

Speaker 1: 17:53

You know, intimate and absolutely you know you can't be a bit shit no, you know you're struggling, but yeah, oh, thanks, I had.

Speaker 2: 18:01

I did think maybe this year I would do some more episodes, not least just because I'm not quite nosy. I really enjoy just talking to people and everybody's got a story and I like listening to people's perspectives on things.

Speaker 1: 18:15

And a great background as well.

Speaker 2: 18:16

That's great oh thank you, could be my bedroom, slash studio.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yes, it's gorgeous. Um, okay, so what have I got in my questions? I normally put them up on my screen, but I didn't because I thought maybe you weren't around. Um, or I sent them to you, didn't I? When you said someone was earning doing the same job as you, what? Um, I hate to ask, but I'm gonna ask was it, was it a man that was doing the same job as you and earning more?

Speaker 2: 18:53

yeah, yeah, of course it was yeah yeah, I just know it was so interesting because of this I kind of then got had a beam up on it about it a little bit. But I remember the time or maybe it was around that time price, I can't remember exactly, but I just remember I was recruiting and I, you know, interviewed various people and I remember asking a guy um, what are your salary expectations? And he just looked me in the eye and was just like I, I earn x and I'd be looking for y and added sort of like 15k to to the number. I was like, okay, that's interesting. And then I and he'd not given a very good interview either, um, you know, it wasn't great. His answers were a bit wishy-washy, wasn't even a qualified accountant at this point, you know. So he didn't have his you know qualifications to back anything up.

Speaker 2: 19:35

And then I interviewed a female who interviewed way better, uh, was just way more competent. Um, yeah, great, I really liked her. I could tell that she'd be really, really great in the role and hard working, whatnot. And then I asked her what her salary expectations were and she because this was she was kind of she was moving into finance and it was a break away from the industry that all the areas she had been in. So because of that she was just like oh, you know, I know I haven't worked in finance before, so I, I'd move for, you know, the same money and, you know, didn't ask for a 15k pay rise like the other guy did. I mean, it's a bit of a facile example, but I just thought this is the difference between guys and girls. I've got this great girl who's clearly really competent and, no, she hasn't worked in finance, but she's got all this experience with all these transferable skills, and I can tell that she'll be able to do this job with her eyes closed, even though she hasn't got finance experience.

Speaker 2: 20:27

And then I've got this guy who gave me all these wishy-washy answers that, yes, has started his qualifications but he hasn't finished, and didn't give me very strong answers, and then just asked for 15k on top of what he was, you know, earning and that maybe he was trying it on. But just because he had the guts to ask for that, I couldn't help but think some sucker's probably going to give that to him just because he had the balls to ask, whereas you know she didn't. So I offered her the job and I gave her more money, because I was like, maybe you didn't ask me for it. I think you're, you know, I think you're worth it and I want you to come here feeling motivated. Years ago that's probably the kind of thing I would have done. I would have been like, oh, like, you know, don't have the experience, is that? And you do read that, don't you? That guys will apply for a job even if they only meet like 50% of the criteria or something, whereas you know a female, if she's, you know, there's a couple of things that she doesn't think she can do she won't um apply at all. It just, yeah, it just really annoyed me because I just thought, you know, that's what perpetuates gender pay gaps and and things like that.

Speaker 2: 21:25

And even in interviews, I mean, you know, he was honest, he told me what you earn, but that's not a question that I'm asked, that in an interview.

Speaker 2: 21:33

I just don't offer up that information, because I kind of think neither of us have got anything to gain from me telling you what I earn, because if you've got a role on offer, you know, you know what you want to to pay, you know what the budget is, and if I tell you a certain figure immediately.

Speaker 2: 21:49

You're then just going to judge me because it's like, okay, well, if I tell you what I earn and this job is for the same salary, are you then going to be thinking, well, why would you move for a job that's not an increase?

Speaker 2: 21:59

Or you know how much of an increase is acceptable? If I tell you I earn x and this job is, you know, for, you know, 50k more than that, does that mean I'm then not for the job? And I just think it's such a opens a can of worms, I think, uh, and it perpetuates pay gas because women do themselves a disservice, um, and guys and guys don't, um, in that regard. So, yeah, that would be a tip from me that if you're asked that, um, I just don't think it's anyone else's business and you just keep that card close to your chest Because, also, bargaining and negotiating your salary on the way in, that's your chance. That's your chance Because once you work at that organization everyone knows this it's way harder to get pay rises because you work there then and the leverage might not be be the same, um, so yeah, that that would be a tip do people can do with that?

Speaker 1: 22:53

that's, yeah, really interesting. One of the one of the biggest differences between men and women from a personality point of view is a trait agreeableness. So there are five traits of personality. I won't go into them, but one of them is agreeableness, and women tend to be far more agreeable than men on average, and you know, obviously, what causes. That is up for debate, but what you've just spoken about there is incredible example of the difference between, uh, some men and some women, because there are plenty of men that are, um, more agreeable than plenty of women.

Speaker 1: 23:34

But you strike me as a very agreeable person, and men and I work doesn't know about men disagree, disagreeable people are will, will just bargain for themselves and they'll be out for themselves more than they'll be out for other people. So they'll come in and they'll go yeah, I want this, this and this, and if you don't give it to me, then I'll go. So a large reason why men sometimes earn more than women is because men simply demand more and they, they don't give a fuck about going or I don't want to. Uh, you know, I don't want to upset this person and stuff like that. I mean, I'm a very, I'm a very agreeable guy, so that I do think like that, but a lot, of, a lot of people don't, um, so that that is.

Speaker 1: 24:19

I think you've just you've uh articulated a perfect example of what can happen and what happens all the time, and one reason as to why, uh, there, there may be, or there is, a pay gap. So I think you're spot on with everything you said. To be fair, what advice would you give to young people who are wondering about money and stuff and and where to go next? I I keep freezing, for fuck's sake, sorry for that.

Speaker 2: 24:50

Yeah, I was sort of quite missed. It is. It's very much. What advice would I give if they're struggling with money?

Speaker 1: 25:00

What should they know about money?

Speaker 2: 25:03

What they should know about money.

Speaker 2: 25:05

I think money is a great tool, um, for being able to do lots of stuff and being honest with yourself around what makes you feel good is a good indicator as to how you should, um spend your money. So I think we've grown up in an era of consumerism and we've been marketed to and encouraged to just consume stuff, and, you know, at the expense of everything, at the expense of whether you can afford it or not. You know credit cards can be very easy to come by and, let's be honest, you know if you're having to put something on a credit card, um, you know I I might have used card once or twice, but companies like that that are just encouraging you to buy stuff that you quite clearly can't afford there and then, because they've given you the options, paying installment. You know that's a great idea for a mortgage because it's such a huge sum of money, but for a pair of trainers, like if you're having to use a buy now, pay later scheme, you probably can't afford it is one thing I would say Great idea isn't it.

Speaker 2: 26:11

Brilliant? Yeah, it is, and I have used a tip, my habit, which is, if you're offered interest-free credit, I will always take it, because cash is really important. You need cash for a rainy day. You never know what's around the corner. So having cash in the bank and I was, I try to aim for this, but having three month sort of salary, just as cash in the bank, is just a really comforting thing to have. Uh, because it just means that in the event that you know, something happens, life happens, um, you know who knows what's around the corner just knowing that you've got like a bit of a nest egg in the bank not that that's even a nest egg, but a rainy day fund Absolutely it's a safety net and I think that's peace of mind and that's worth the lot.

Speaker 2: 26:59

But one thing I've trained myself to do over the last few years is just to genuinely want less. And you know I have been there, done that when you're sort of maybe a bit younger and naive, you want to buy stuff and buy like clothes and jewelry and the handbags and and you know all those kind of things, and yeah, they can make you feel good for a short period of time. But then I have this big obsession with like cost per wear, so anything that I buy sort of clothes wise, um, I want to wear everything a lot. I really want to get sort of my my money's worth. It really pains me if I have something hanging in my wardrobe that costs quite a lot of money and I've worn it once, like that's really not. That doesn't satisfy me, um, and it's wasteful. It's just, it's really wasteful and it's actually surprising like how, how little you you actually do really need and I think, because I've maybe moved around a little bit you can't be bothered to like schlep loads of stuff from one um place to the next.

Speaker 2: 28:03

So as you move you kind of like a bit clear out, um, and so, you know, I've naturally just ended up with fewer things, I guess, because I just can't be bothered to cut them from one place to the next, and it's, and it's nice, it's nice not having lots of you know stuff and you know too much um clutter around, um, and if you just genuinely want less, then yeah, exactly um, if you, if you want less than that, just you know that desire to just kind of consume, consume, consume for the, for the sake of it, to try and like keep up with like influencers or whatever, um, it just kind of goes away and it's just, it's a great powerful thing, because I, you know, in doing that, I just feel very much in in control of of what I buy and I don't feel like I, you know, yearn to things in a way that maybe I did a while ago, because that's when you start to beat yourself up, that's when kind of like the negative self-talk comes in, and then that's when you, you know, you can sometimes be a bit unkind for yourself because, let's be honest, if you're in debt, for example, it's because you've consumed more than you can, you know, afford and probably see more than you actually than you actually need, um. So I just kind of think, having that sort of scarcity mindset, it's free and uh, it just means that when you do, you know spend, you're doing it really mindfully, with when, with purpose, and then you just really appreciate um, appreciate what you have, um, and I think just also being very in control of what comes into your bank account and what goes out, that's another really powerful thing to just be aware of and it's again bringing that mindfulness aspect into it. But when you're I mean I did this exercise I had to save like a quite a large amount of money in a short space of time. So I literally set up a spreadsheet with, ok, what comes in, and that's quite straightforward because it's just my monthly salary, and then let's keep a diary of everything that goes out.

Speaker 2: 29:50

And when you rack it all up like that, you're like oh my god, you know I spent 200 quid just on ubers, or you know how much is, you know pay of c or whatever, whatever it might be, and there's nothing inherently sort of wrong with that. But but in the cold light of day, when you see it written down, and there's nothing inherently sort of wrong with that? But in the cold light of day, when you see it written down and sort of tallied up like that, it's like, oh okay, well, do you know what? Maybe that's not great and maybe I could just get public transport and just you know, think about my route in advance and save 200 quid, or you know, whatever it might be. And again, for me that was just a very empowering thing to do because it just meant that I'm, you know, I it might be.

Speaker 2: 30:26

And again, for me that was just a very empowering thing to do because it just meant that I'm, you know, I'm not being wasteful, I'm in control, I'm not. And I think a lot of people can sometimes feel like their finances are out of control, especially with contactless and apple pay and one click and all that kind of stuff. It's so easy, it is so easy to spend money. You almost have to fight against it. Um, so doing that exercise it just makes you feel a bit more in control. And that doesn't mean that I sort of go out and you spend everything I earn each month, but at least you're at least you know where it's gone.

Speaker 2: 30:57

Um, and I think just having those kind of like basic things from the get-go just can breed quite good habits that then just you know as you then start to earn more money as you go through your career and whatnot, um, it's just. It's just a useful thing. Because then one thing that I've seen, as I've, you know, gotten older and maybe you found this as well but yeah, you chat to people who they don't like their jobs and that you know they hate work and they're really not enjoying it but they can't quit because they've got a lifestyle that's predicated on the fact that they earn that much money or they've got outgoings that mean that you know they've got a mortgage that is predicated on.

Speaker 2: 31:33

That's how you and they so then they can't ever leave. And referencing back to when I was saying, people like to have, like you know, autonomy over their own time and things like that. If you're in a job that you just feel like you can't leave because you've got all these outgoings and whatnot, um, that's a horrible place to be like. That is how awful to feel, to feel so trapped in something that you don't feel like you can ever, you know, take a step back from, whereas if you've been, you know, quite um circumspect with your finances and maybe not, you know, got a massive mortgage just because you can afford it. Or, you know you've lived a bit more frugally, you know, got a massive mortgage just because you can afford it, or you, you've lived a bit more frugally, you've got this rainy day fund or whatever you'd think.

Speaker 2: 32:09

You've then got a choice that you can think, well, I, I could quit my job, or you know, I could do something along those lines, um, because because I've, you know, I've got some money in the bank and that gives you a bit some freedom and some choice. Um, so, yeah, I think that they would be like some sort of just top tips from shrimp from me, um, to you know a way to kind of just make yourself feel in control and that you know that you're um, yeah, your face kind of a bit more in in your hands, rather than just feeling like you're you're trapped or that you're you know spending and ways with money are out of control. Um, yeah, they're things that just give me like comfort, anyway yeah, no, those.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Those are all brilliant tips. There's a, there's a saying I think the happiest person is someone that can fit all their belongings in one suitcase, or something like that. It's basically promoting minimalism and I I I mean that's obviously a bit of an extreme example, but I do. I'm incredibly minimalistic, like this room's basically got and my bedroom is basically nothing in it either and, I think, clutter. That's because, by temperament, I'm a very orderly person, but I also yeah it.

Speaker 1: 33:25

You're and I'm a huge believer in sort of going to mental health. Your, your external world is a is a action of your internal world, and therefore anyone that is feels as if their internal world is chaos and they don't know what to do. I would always recommend well, go and find something that you can tidy or that you can sort out, and that's a good sort of first, uh, sort of it's all about alleviating chaos. I think if you're a chaotic person, then you want to eradicate as much chaos as possible, and I think that's just a great thing to do yeah, no, I agree with that.

Speaker 2: 34:03

Everything's quite minimalist here. It's just um, just good for your mental, I don't know. It's just nice to think that things are orderly and, um, it's one less thing to think about.

Speaker 1: 34:14

You don't have to tidy up because everything's just kind of got its place yes, exactly, I mean, there's obviously there's a place for chaos, and and I think if you're bounded by everything being spotless and perfect, then then that can become a problem in itself, to be fair.

Speaker 2: 34:31

We're not in the army. It's not barracks that we've got to keep pristine.

Speaker 1: 34:37

Exactly, yeah, yeah. And also I like the bit about clothes. I saw a thing on Facebook I think it was Facebook, probably because it wouldn't be on Instagram a while ago about this this woman who had done an experiment. She had 30 pieces of clothing and she, I think she just recycled 30 pieces of clothing, sort of using different combinations, and, like no one, I think she did it for 30 days or maybe longer. Gorgeous. 30 days isn't very long, but you know the combinations of different things. There are sort of a sort of an inordinate amount, so you can get a lot done with, especially sort of women's clothing, because there's more accessories and stuff, I think yeah and you can well, definitely, you have just get off to your wardrobe and have, yeah, really considered pieces um, yeah, less than sure.

Speaker 2: 35:31

And you know the fast fashion companies. I mean I guess they serve a purpose for you know, people on lower incomes or whatever, but I think they they're just horrible really, because they kind of bred this kind of easy come, easy go mentality, like I'll just Like, oh, I'll just get a top that's like five pounds or whatever. I feel like my room, if I wear it, I'll throw it away, but then it all ends up in landfill and it's just yeah, they're a bit putrid.

Speaker 1: 36:00

Yes, no, I completely agree, they are, and obviously you're interested in fashion, aren't you? So, yeah, completely agree, they are, and obviously you're interested in fashion, aren't you? So, yeah, it's all about quality over quantity, isn't it? You spoke about how people can be sort of restricted and bounded by their jobs and how there's a huge I've had a couple of well, one in particular couple actually of people like that are entrepreneurs, and they've spoken about how there's this, you know, the, the corporate and the entrepreneur world, that sort of, I suppose, the similar similarities and the differences, and how there's a huge anti-culture of, you know, turn up to work, do as little as possible and then and then leave, and I suppose that sort of leads into that guy that was interviewed and that was he was basically saying, and sense of, in a weird way, because I'm giving you service, I want as much money out of it as I possibly can get and what, what's your? I don't really know where I'm going with this. Actually, I've sort of I've gone down a dark alley. I've gone down an alley, talk.

Speaker 1: 37:15

So talk of the matrix. What's your, what's your opinion on something like the matrix, that sort of? Have you heard that matrix? You've heard the term the matrix just because you were sort of the words you were using. Yeah, but there's also um, popularized by andrew tate, who, you know, we don't talk about, we don't, we don't, we don't like, but um, he coined the term the matrix in the sense of sort of the you know, the corporate rat race and stuff like that. And I, I think I mean, based on what you've said, you've almost had your own experience with that, in the sense that you decided to work for a startup company because that's far more entrepreneurial. I mean, in a sense, you are, um, you're partaking in entrepreneurship now more than you're partaking in corporate shit don't know if that's a word, but how has that lifestyle change? How has that change in sort of uh company affected your opinion on, I don't know, corporate sort of drive and chase, climbing the ladder and all that sort of that world?

Speaker 2: 38:25

yeah, if I think back to, like you know, when I yeah, when I joined the world of work and I started at deloitte and I felt like I I wanted a career, I wanted a solid career path and, um, you know I would, I wanted to earn lots of money. I suppose that was my motivation, like it is for a lot of, you know, for most people. We all want to earn money and get paid more so we can buy more stuff just talking about earlier, and you know, corporate careers can be a great way to achieve that. I feel like I have this real just aversion this might sound a bit obvious because I'm sure lots of people do, but I just that, this real aversion to stress, like I just think stress is a hidden killer.

Speaker 2: 39:07

um, it takes a toll in really like, you know, nefarious, pernicious, like ways and um, and sometimes it's in the pursuit of these kind of like corporate jobs to try and get paid more money and, if you know, if you don't find it stressful and you want to go up that ladder and be more senior, you know, I think that's great. But I think you need to be able to sort of just strike a balance between what, what makes you happy and what you do for a living. So, you know, I love it when I meet people who really enjoy, enjoy their job. Um, you know, I actually hate that phrase. I don't do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. I don't think it's quite like that. Work is still work and it comes with pressures. But for the difference between being like tested and pressure, versus being stressed and feeling like it's, you know it's overwhelming, um, and I think if you have a job that pays well and it strikes that balance between you know being challenging enough, but in a way that you don't feel stressed by it, um, then I think you've, you know you've hit the jackpot really, um, because it's um, yeah, you found that balance and for me I have a big like one of my core values is balance, which is why I think I ducked out of Deloitte so early, because I was, you know, having to work these longer hours, didn't feel like I had agency over my own time. But I remember I was going on holiday and I'd been so busy that I'd booked the day off before I was flying because I hadn't had time to just, you know, do all the stuff you want to do before you go on holiday, like get your nails done and you know all that kind of stuff, and make sure I got my toiletries or whatever. And then when the partner found out that I wasn't actually flying that day, he made me come into the office and I'm like so this is, you know, this might be where we will leave, and I felt like I couldn't say no, um, and you know, working sort of long, unpredictable hours.

Speaker 2: 40:56

I'm a bit of a creature of habit at times and I I take a lot of comfort from my routines, um, and one of them is, you know, my sleep patterns, going to the gym, uh, what I eat, and things like that. And I found that I was sacrificing all those things for this job because there was no time to go to the gym because you, you know you're in the office for crack of dawn and you were there till gone midnight. I can never eat another Wagamama in my life because there was one underneath the office at Deloitte and that's just where we always used to go when we were in the office late and, you know, the money was okay. For me it just wasn't enough to offset the fact that I was just having to sacrifice these other things. And so when I, you know, hit, listen to my friends talk that I don't know what they mean, but it's probably double at least what I am. But then I hear sort of how stressed they are and things like that. I'm just like I, yeah, if good, good for you, like, if that's how you want to sort of, you know, continue to live, but I'd rather sort of, you know, sacrifice some of my earning potential to trade off for the ability to manage my own time a bit more and to and you know, to not mess up with my routine of, you know, choosing when I go to the gym, you know what time I go to bed, and things like that, because for me they're things that just bring me a lot of joy and happiness and they're good for my mental health, and I know that's, you know, buzzword and whatever at the moment, but, um, you know, the power of a good night's sleep is is, you know, is everything drinking plenty of water, having a good diet valuable? And when you start, when you start to sacrifice those things and relationships as well.

Speaker 2: 42:40

I remember I was single when I was at Deloitte and I was trying to date and you know there's this guy who'd been asking me out and I kept cancelling on him and then finally we agreed this day and I was like, yeah, I can definitely make it because the project's finished, I just need the partner to sign his office on the phone and just didn't, didn't come out for an hour, and in the meantime I've sent this guy to the pub to go and you know, wait for me. And he's like you're a joke. I can't believe this and I'm like it's not my fault, you know, it's like kind of out of my hands, it's my job and, um, you know, maybe he's been a bit, a bit difficult, but I just felt like this is literally impacting on my entire, on the rest of my life, and it's not, it's not worth it in my opinion. Um so exactly, you know, um I think people just uh, there's should just, yeah, perceive what makes you happy yes, yes, there's.

Speaker 1: 43:32

What you've just spoken about is another incredible, uh case study of a lot of the confusion. I think that goes on in like society, because you know the the talk of like, you know male privilege and patriarchy and what you've basically just described there is how it's not. I think women actually have it more. There's a small minority of men that will go at their career. They will devote 99.5% of their 99, whatever 95% of their life to their career and they'll sacrifice everything for it successful. But then and you, you obviously have that you could have done that if you wanted to but then there's most people think, actually this isn't worth it.

Speaker 1: 44:28

I, I'm missing out on a relationship, I'm missing out on, you know, extracurricular activities, social life, and I actually, you know, and also when it comes to sort of, I suppose, relationships and, uh, heterosexual relationships, a lot of these women that earn a lot of money, they have husbands or that earn more money than they do, because that's what tends to happen women tend to pick men that earn more money than them. That's what tends to happen. Women tend to pick men that earn more money than them, and I think that what you've just sort of pointed out there is an incredible example of how you made the decision of you were obviously incredibly competent and you could easily have gone at this all you wanted, but actually, as you said, the money wasn't incredible and what you were giving up for a bit more money just just wasn't worth it. And I think that you definitely, as you said, balance, balance. Balance is key and it's key to mental health and it's key to all aspects. So I think that's a a really good thing and, um, also too much wagamamas I ate about that life that's.

Speaker 1: 45:41

I think that would to be really annoying. I don't really like yeah, oh no, nando's. That must have been yeah, because nando's used to be so big and it sort of died a bit of a death, nando's.

Speaker 1: 45:53

Yeah, exactly so let's you. You spoke. You said right, I say that a lot. That's a bit of my phrase. You've spoken. You said earlier about how, uh, you trained to be a mental health. Uh, first, was it first aider? That's, that's brilliant. So, first aider, tell me about that. Where did that come about?

Speaker 2: 46:14

yeah, it's random, isn't it? So part of the reason I want to do is out of curiosity, because obviously you've heard of a physical first aider, or just a first aider as it would be, and at Charles Tyrwhitt they gave us the option to train, for a handful of us who have passed us forward, to be a mental health first aider and I was like, oh, this sounds interesting. What does that entail? And effectively it's just somebody who, the same way, if you hurt yourself, you might get the first aid to help you find a bandage or whatever. If you think you're struggling with your mental health, to have somebody who's a point of contact within the organisation that you just go and speak to and just sort of say, you know, oh, this has happened. You know, I guess lots of us would do that, maybe with our family or our friends, if, if we felt like something was was wrong. But maybe when people don't feel comfortable talking to those people or they don't, you know, they might not have lots of family and friends um, and we did training and ultimately the training just teaches you that you just sit there and listen, um, you know, you don't, um, you don't give advice, which I think is human nature and the training was good because it did sort of, you know, I think, when you're like a problem solver, uh, it's, it's natural, and it is human nature that if someone presents a problem to you, immediately you want to try and help them come to solutions. And when you're, you know, a manager at work or whatever, that's kind of what you're there to do. But as a mental health first aid, that's not what you're there to do. Um, not least because and I always think this in general that you're not not qualified to give advice. What if you gave someone advice? Yeah, okay, yeah might turn out awfully. Um, and, and you know a lot of people, often they just yeah, they just want someone to to listen, basically, and sort of empathize with, with what they're going through.

Speaker 2: 47:57

And I'm quite an, you know, an empathetic person, I think, which is one of the reasons that you know they sort of selectable to do it. Um, and yeah, you know, I'm just a big believer that you know, problem shared and all that kind of thing. You know, just get stuff off your, off your chest. And I think, as humans, we've all probably done this, where the moment you say something out loud to someone, you might be asking for help. I've done this at work and I'm like, oh, I've just got a problem with this and just by the virtue of saying it out loud, you somehow kind of figure it out on your own, because you've just you've just said it out loud and paused and thought about it, so sometimes just you know, offload into somebody about what's what's wrong, um, and I also found that I just people seem to tell me stuff even though I don't ask.

Speaker 2: 48:40

I can be sat next to someone on a bus. I mean, I did it on a flight home once from holiday and within 45 minutes this guy was. It was like I was his therapist. I didn't ask him any questions. I think he obviously just felt like he needed someone to speak to and I was a captive audience for 12 hours or however long we were on the flight force. Yeah, people seem to be able to tell me things, um, so, so, yeah, so yeah, I'm a real, I'm a real advocate, um for it, because I don't think people should, um, suffer alone and there's, you know, there's, there's help out there. That was another thing that they did tell you in the training that you can't give advice but if you, uh, you know, you can encourage somebody to seek, you know, medical assistance or the help of a professional if you think about see how appropriate uh to do so.

Speaker 1: 49:23

Um, and yes and yes, that that not giving yeah, that not giving advice thing is uh interesting, because my dad's a samaritan and they can't give advice and um, but it's actually even up the chain, the sort of you know, the, the hierarchy of mental health professionals. You'd be surprised how they don't encourage even like clinical psychologists, um, to give advice, because I think the only people that can give I mean psychiatrists can obviously give medical advice because they're doctors. But clinical psychologists, yeah, they prescribe things. Yeah, but clinical psychologists aren't really supposed to give as much advice as you think, because the point of a therapist is to allow their clients to work out and reformulate their ideas themselves. So they can facilitate that. But they, but also, if you, it's the same sort of premise as if you, you know, if you give someone a fish, they'll be full for a day, but if you teach them how to fish, they'll uh, they'll be good for when, however long. So, yeah, the, the, the, uh, not giving advice is more sort of ubiquitous than you'd think. And also, another thing that I thought was interesting was when you said how, when you were thinking, you had to say out loud, out loud, thinking is actually a really what would you say?

Speaker 1: 50:55

Uh limited sort of form of working things out. We, most people, can't think very well because we think by speaking, so and writing. We think by speaking and writing. So we have to articulate, learn the process of thought through different forms of articulation. So, because everyone said that they like, they, they say out loud and or they said it to someone and then they're like that's actually completely different to what I thought it was. So I would always I always recommend the epitome, right?

Speaker 2: 51:33

yeah, be aware with your thoughts is like a really um, yeah, that's, that's a nice thing to to have that the luxury of you know at that. I say this because I live on my own, so you know I spend a lot of time, um, on my own and I think a lot of people can go through life without ever living on their own and spending much time on their own.

Speaker 2: 51:50

So if you're never alone with your thoughts, like when do you get a chance to process stuff? But then, having said that, having too much time with your own thoughts can be quite dangerous, because a lot of us are actually quite horrible. The way that we speak to ourselves and we can touch, we catastrophize. It's human nature to do that and this is another reason why. Kind of circling back to when we were talking about whether you should work from home or not, if you were just sat at home, you know, thinking and stewing on things all day, that you know that that can be really damaging and harmful, whereas if you're in an office and you could just turn to the person who was sat next to you and just be like, oh you know, and my mum noticed that because she used to work in them and she was from my social worker, basically um, doing child protection in blackpool, where I'm from um, I'm sure you can imagine. You know that's a difficult job in a difficult area.

Speaker 2: 52:38

Yeah, definitely it was both, really, you know, unpleasant, unsavoury things. And there was a period where she was at home because she was writing reports and things and someone called her and was rude and horrible to her on the phone. And then she just hung up and she was at home all by herself and she was burst into tears. And she was all by herself, you know, she was, was like normally would have been in the office and I could have just hung up and turned to my colleague and been like, you know, this bitch just said this to me.

Speaker 2: 53:05

Um, I remember it was fair, she would have said that, but, you know, and the person would have made her feel, feel better about it. Um, you don't, you know you can't do that in the same way when you're home all the time. So, yeah, having a mental health first aider or, you know, just having somebody that you can say things out loud to and, um, you know, get things off your chest is is quite exotic, I think yeah, and also just, um, just as you were talking, I just thought I'd bring this up because I find it so interesting whenever we discuss, whenever I discuss, mental health with someone.

Speaker 1: 53:39

Um, I know we're nearly done an hour so I'll let you go soon, but I just wanted to say this right at the end um, you know that everyone talks about fight or flight, uh, the stress response fight or flight, fight, flight, freeze. There's another stress response called tend and befriend and that's more associated as the female stress response, because tendon, because it involves tending to children, infants and befriending people around you. So, just as you were talking about your mum there, her reaction would have been to go and tell someone what happened, and she couldn't do that, so she then therefore had to. I mean, I don't know, it's just a thought that came to me. She then had to express her emotion in a different way, so she started crying.

Speaker 1: 54:25

But you know, that's why I think women use their social structures as sort of coping and regulatory strategies far more than men do, and I think that's a lot of the problem with men's mental health at the moment, because no one really knows that that's a thing. But I think that the tend and befriend is really, is really interesting just how I mean anyone can tend to befriend. I I'm quite a bit of a tender befriender. I think, um, it's, it's sort of it's all about what regulates you, isn't it? When you feel stressed?

Speaker 2: 54:59

Yes, it has everyone coping in completely different ways, and I think not to stereotype, but guys stereotypically tend to sort of like bottle things up and don't want to show sort of vulnerability or weakness and they keep things inside and I think that's that's really, that's really sad. I know there's lots of campaigns at the moment to try and get guys um in particular to to talk um, because, yeah, it's bottling things up.

Speaker 1: 55:32

It's quite dangerous yeah, no, it's not good, right. Final question yes, it is called the Breaking Point Podcast because I'm interested in people's breaking points, moments where they thought I need to make a change here. I can't go on. I've been misinterpreting the world or whatever in this form and I need to do it like this, or you know, have you had a breaking point?

Speaker 2: 56:04

oh my god, let load, load, load.

Speaker 2: 56:12

So I mean, I've had pick one pick one, okay, um, I mean I've had. There's been. There's been two times um. I know you said to pick one, but I'm greedy so there's been twice I've since in my career, um, I've quit my, my job, where I haven't had another one to go to um, and I've done that twice. And this, I think this is why I harp on about people having like rainy day money and not feeling trapped and that kind of thing, because I've experienced what it it's like to be in a job that not only you know, you just yeah, desperately, not not like it um, but that you know it's been that strong where I've felt like I actually can't continue to work here because it's that bad.

Speaker 2: 56:59

And yeah, I guess I've done that twice and they were both for, well, similar but different reasons. I just wasn't enjoying the role. But the reasons I wasn't enjoying the role, you know, for the kind of different reasons, and for me that's quite an extreme thing to do because you know we've all got bills and I've had a job since I was 12. Um, you know, I've never, sort of not. So this is not a.

Speaker 2: 57:23

I can imagine you'd have to be pushed pretty close to the edge to make that decision yeah, um, but I think both in both of those instances and they happened about 10 years apart um, I think I, I think I just have a very good sense of kind of myself and I don't fall at the first hurdle. I'm very determined. You know, three times past my driving test.

Speaker 2: 57:44

I didn't pass all my accounts at the exams first time. I had to drop my A-levels and start again, like these are all other ones I would have mentioned, but in doing that I've kind of built my resilience, I suppose. So if I'm finding something difficult and I feel like it's upsetting my balance, because that's really important to me, and I feel like the you know, nothing is worth being stressed, and if I felt like I'm sort of heading towards, towards that, then I wouldn't be being true to myself if I didn't do something about it. I'm quite a proactive person.

Speaker 2: 58:12

If I'm unhappy with something, then I will do my best to change it, either through my mindset or well, that's what you do, isn't it? You need to change your mindset about it, or you have to physically change the situation. Um, and so both of those times I guess you could say I was um, you know, at a breaking point and my, my decision was to kind of flee the situation. But I was able to do that because I, you know, I had the courage of my convictions to do it.

Speaker 2: 58:36

I knew that I tried everything to make those situations work, um yeah and I, you know, crudely, had some money in the bank because I'd been prudent, that I was like I can quit and I backed myself to get another job. Uh, before I, you know, use all my savings, um, you know, because you know that's that's what they're there for. Um, and I think that's why I was hard upon so much about people, you know, having a handle on their um, you know their finances and just so, so that if a situation like that comes up, where you just feel like I physically can't work here anymore, you've got the option to you know you can, you can duck out of it. Um, so, yeah, I guess they're kind of, yeah, two ties where I've felt like I'm at. Yeah, didn't feel like breaking point at the time, I suppose, but it was strong enough for me to feel like I have to walk away from this and I was very comfortable with that decision.

Speaker 2: 59:30

I remember the first time I did it and then I spoke to, I think, one of the partners I used to work for at Deloitte and he was like you haven't quit your job, have you? And I was like you haven't quit your job, have you? And I was like, well, yeah, I have. And he's like, but you don't have another one, and I was like, no, and I know he was just a bit taken aback that I'd done that, but there were no doubts in my mind at both of those points that it was the right thing to do. And I think, yeah, that's another good thing that comes from just knowing what makes you happy and and being able to have reliance on your gut instincts. That I just thought this is. You know, there's not a doubt in my mind that this is the right thing to do.

Speaker 1: 1:00:05

Um, you know, and then good usually comes from it completely yeah, and I wouldn't even classify that as uh, fleeing. I'd say that was an astute decision that you made after considering all the the consequences. So what would have been worse would have been to almost stay in that position. Uh, you know, in the sense of staying in a relationship, that's bad news, it's yeah, maybe not so actually, because that thing about relationships is very rarely they all bad, but that job was clearly far more uh heavy on the on the con side than the pro side, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that was a bad thing. I think, right decision there, so done. And now you're selling chocolate without any cocoa in it, so you