S1 Episode 3: Understanding What a Child's Brain Needs from Birth - Lucia speaks with Dr. Josh Madsen

In this enlightening episode, Lucia invites Dr. Josh Madsen, a leading expert in pediatric neurology, to delve deeper into what our children's brains require from birth and the crucial role of primitive reflexes on brain development.

Primitive reflexes, innate involuntary movements in infants, are fundamental for early survival. Dr. Madsen highlights their significance and how uninhibited reflexes can hinder cognitive growth.

Key Takeaways

• Primitive reflexes are instinctual movements crucial for early survival and development.
• Uninhibited reflexes can impede essential cognitive functions, leading to challenges in areas like attention and balance.
• Short, consistent exercises targeting primitive reflexes can lead to significant improvements in brain function.
• Regulating diet, engaging in sensory activities, and incorporating movement-based exercises play pivotal roles in enhancing cognitive development.
• The brain possesses remarkable adaptability (neuroplasticity), especially in children, and with targeted interventions, we can guide our children towards healthier brain development and improved cognitive function.

Dr. Josh Madsen leaves us with the empowering knowledge that the brain possesses remarkable adaptability, especially in children. With understanding and targeted interventions, we can guide our children towards healthier brain development and improved cognitive function.

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Transcript

Lucia Silver: 2:33

Welcome to the Brain Balance movements introductory podcast series my Mighty Quinn. In this episode, we delve a little deeper into the world of brain health and child brain development, with some gentle steps into the world of primitive reflexes that you've heard me emphasise, as well as a first look at ADHD, and how we can better understand what is really going on in the brain and the underlying root causes behind this growing and highly prevalent disorder. I'm your host Lucia Silva and today, we're joined by an incredible guest, Dr. Joshua Madsen, a devoted and highly respected practitioner, specialising in functional neurology, Chiropractic and functional medicine. He is the co owner of the esteemed clinic infinity Functional Neurology in Iowa, US, where he sees and helps hundreds of children with neurological challenges and delays. But before we dive into our enlightening conversation, let's get to know Dr. Josh a little better. He's an amazing man, with first and foremost a deep passion for helping children and parents find hope and healing. He has spent years perfecting his expertise. He holds a doctorate of chiropractic degree and is a fellow of the International Board of functional neurology. Dr. Josh's journey through the Carrick Institute of clinical neuroscience and rehabilitation, shaped his specialisation in neurodevelopmental delays. Today, he is dedicated to enhancing brain function, whether behavioural, social, learning, attentional are the result of injury and trauma, he is all about transforming lives, and guiding families towards brighter futures. He's married, and with a very lovely two year old son. Importantly, from my point of view, and in fulfilling my promise to the Brain Balance movement to be the bridge between science and parenthood, in relation to the neurological struggles our children are facing, I have scoured and continued to scour the globe, for not just the most qualified and experienced specialist scientists and practitioners have brain development and brain health in our children. But for those experts who are also heart as well as head driven, kind, compassionate, and able to communicate their science and research evidence and findings in a relatable, gentle and accessible way, so that we can understand action and implement without feeling overwhelmed or intimidated. Dr. Josh, I'm so very grateful to have found you and excited to have you on the show to begin our journey of explanation, Revelation, and transformation. Thank you for joining us today from Iowa.

Dr Josh Madsen: 5:22

Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Oh,

Lucia Silver: 5:25

wow. So Dr. Josh, why don't we begin? I'm thinking, perhaps first with how you have come to be doing what you're doing and what has led you to this moment.

Dr Josh Madsen: 5:36

Yeah. So I had a lot of issues. When I was younger, I had a lot of, you know, reading delays and learning struggles and attentional issues, and I had all kinds of issues when I was younger. And to be honest, when I first like when in chiropractic school and whatnot, I didn't realise that this is something that that number one I can even help with. But then I got exposed to something called Functional Neurology and function. ology really opened my eyes to how the brain functions, how all our lifestyle in how different movement activities and how different rehab strategies can make an effect to different areas of the brain and help with that neuro development or help that development to occur. And one of my best friends, he was doing functional neurology during school and that was what got me exposed to it. But then I started taking a lot of courses on paediatrics I knew I wanted to work with kids in some way or another and, and help kids it struggled like I did, to whatever ability that would be in in functional neurology, that training that I took in continue to take consistently here is really has opened my eyes to the abilities and the ability to help these kids to grow and develop and help that brain to change and improve function more most importantly, and also symptomatology. So that's really how I got started is I had a great friend that they got me exposed to it. So wow, huge blessing in my life,

Lucia Silver: 7:05

huge blessing and so interesting to hear a personal story as well as a story of study. I think there's nothing quite like this impacting your own life and your ability, therefore to understand the struggles intimately and personally as well as having the tools to help people.

Dr Josh Madsen: 7:24

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The I mean, I think that's probably why so many kids with learning delays and stuff like that are driven to our practice is because I at I can understand it, you know, I went through it, I went through tonnes of tutors I went through, you know that years of struggling through school. And it when I was in college, I finally found, you know, met someone that understood some of this stuff. And I went from B's and C's and working super hard to straight A's and on the Dean's list and life was easy after that, after I got rid of some reflexes after I got my eyes more stable after I helped change my diet to get inflammation down, like, wow, life was completely different. And that's, you know, the that experience is what drove me into

Lucia Silver: 8:10

helping helping others absolutely help others. And what a difference too, there's one thing isn't there not knowing, which is where most of our, our poor, poor, disempowered parents are just not knowing anything. There's another level where you introduce some scientific evidence, that's super helpful. But to be at a third level, where you and I both are at which is you've been through it personally. And you've also seen kids going through these drug free movement based programmes I have to with my own son. So I think there is a passion that comes from experiencing it really knowing that this is possible. Which brings me to exactly that. I mean, what problems and what are the most common challenges you're seeing most with children being brought by parents to your clinic now? Dr. Josh?

Dr Josh Madsen: 9:53

I would say probably the highest amount is behavioural issues, learning issues, attentional issues, ADHD, autism, pan's pandas. So autoimmune Encephalopathies, those are also very common. Those are probably the biggest things that I'm seeing, but just in general, from like perspective of, like looking globally, the we're seeing a significant increase in developmental delays, neurodevelopmental delays, and you know, and that's only getting worse. So we also see a lot of traumatic brain injuries, that's another really common thing.

Lucia Silver: 10:31

Right? And, and, and across the spectrum of all of those conditions that you've just shared with me. The common root element is brain is brain health, which is why I've called this the you know, the Brain Balance movement, that this is really all rooted in brain health, which is complex at one level, but helpful that all paths lead to one root cause. Many people are thinking that this is simply an overdiagnosis right now that it's not a real problem. Oh, it's just, you know, we weren't really getting kids checked anymore. We just got on with life. But if you speak to teachers who've been teaching for long enough, Josh, they'll tell you that the kids in the classroom have far, far harder than they were to manage 20 years ago, whether they've been diagnosed or not, I mean, many kids in the classroom haven't actually been diagnosed, and they've got conditions. So I just want to ask you, you know, these rising numbers of children with developmental delays and challenges, they seem pretty undeniable. Your insights on these alarming statistics? Do you concur that we have a real and undeniable problem on our hands at this point in time?

Dr Josh Madsen: 11:41

I mean, like, the statistic is, like, one in four kids have a developmental issue. And at this rate, like eat by 2050, they're saying, what one in three, something along, don't quote me on exactly, but I think it's like, one in three kids are gonna have autism. So I mean, that's a, that's an alarming rate considering, you know, it was one in, you know, a couple 1000, not even 30 years ago. So the in Yes, there is an increase in, in diagnosis and stuff like that. And but that does not account for the significant increase that we're seeing. And even the genetic component, that doesn't change in a matter of a short amount of years like that. So it's more than an environmental aspect that is playing into that. And that's what the research is pointing to, as well as I mean, we know the risk factors for developmental delays, and many of them, pretty much most of them are environmentally related, not necessarily genetic related. And there's some genetic aspects and five to maybe 15% of kids, but the great majority of it isn't the environment that they're in.

Lucia Silver: 12:50

Right. So just to be clear on what that means, Josh, for those that aren't familiar with terms of genetics versus environment, I mean, environment is the part that we can shape and change in condition, whether that's your diet, whether that's your parents, your parental habits, you know, how you're raising your kids, what sort of environment they're in, and so forth. Whereas genetic is what we have until recently believed as a blueprint and which is unchangeable. We now know that there is something called as epigenetics which means that you are born with a certain type of blueprint which might predispose you, but but actually there are many environmental changes that can still shape and shift that blueprint. Is that is that.

Dr Josh Madsen: 13:33

Yes. So your epigenetics, your genetics or your exactly your blueprint blueprint, but your environment is what triggers that gene expression. So the poor or the environment is the worst that expression is right. Right. So just been, the better it is, the better that expression.

Lucia Silver: 13:50

So Gotcha. So So just because a parent has autism doesn't mean, you're gonna have autism or your parent has dyslexia, you're gonna have dyslexia, you might have a subtle predisposition to it, but it is what then ensues that will shape the genetic expression.

Dr Josh Madsen: 14:07

Exactly. Okay.

Lucia Silver: 14:09

Well, I have a big question for you. navigating the maze of information and guidance for these affected children and Prevention's seems incredibly challenging. But why do you think it's so difficult, you know, it's taken me five years to get a handle on any hope on any possibility. And I'm super confused why this information, much of which you have taught me and some of which I found through the fantastic Evo and said came some, a little a little while ago, but but why is this, like finding buried gold, what is going on

Dr Josh Madsen: 14:48

the, because the information that you're going to learn in that you you need to implement to help these kids in the activities you need to do to help them help them to develop is, is like, it's like swimming upstream, you know, like, our whole society is going in one direction, and that in creating an environment that is known risk factors for causing developmental issues, well, if you're trying to go the other way, you have to do, you know, you have to go the opposite direction, you have to go against, you know, how that flow of water is moving, you have to go against the grain. And it's challenging, you know, it's, it is challenging, if you, you know, have you to do exercises consistently every day because a child missed those exercises to work on their primitive reflexes that can be challenging. And, you know, if you have a busy lifestyle, and you're busy parent, and you know, it's, it's hard or if you need to make dietary changes, when all their friends are eating gluten and dairy and having, you know, sub cakes every day, and, and that child can't handle that amount of stress on their body, because we research very clear gluten and dairy affects concrete brain inflammation, and that can affect development. And same with sugar, blood sugar dysregulation, same thing. So it's challenging to, especially in the environment that we're in. And there's, you know, a lot of people, you know, making money in food companies making money, in paying for advertising and all these types of things that pushes our society in a direction, that is really not beneficial for the overall development of the human being.

Lucia Silver: 16:24

Right. I mean, diet is a is a huge factor, as you say, in processed food is also often cheaper than your good food. There is there is also, as you say, exercise as being able to implement and be disciplined enough to implement some of these corrective exercises that Quinn and I have taken time and kids want to be on their screens, which, you know, perhaps you want to touch a little bit on, on that. Josh, with screens, what that's doing, you know, yeah,

Dr Josh Madsen: 16:54

you know, our brain, it develops through movement. I mean, that is very clear, from an evolutionary standpoint, from a research based standpoint, like, as we move, it activates, our brain activates our cerebellum activates our higher cortex. And that is really what builds our brain, in lack of movement stops that development from occurring. So for kids in front of a, just from a simple terms, not even talking about the the chemistry of what happens, but if we stop moving, and we're sitting in on a screen for multiple hours a day, you know, or that screen is the, you know, quote, unquote, the babysitter, they're not moving, therefore, they are not developing their brain and, you know, especially young kids, they need to be moving three, four or five hours a day to really get enough sensory stimulus in to develop their brain. And, you know, and especially in the United States here, when I look outside, I don't see kids moving very often. And there's, you know, so that doesn't help the brain develop at all. And then there's also the when they don't move, they gain weight and they become obese, and now we're having an epidemic of that. So which being obese is also very inflammatory for our brain is what we're finding out.

Lucia Silver: 18:05

Right? So one thing exacerbates another no movement is weight gain, process food, further brain inflammation. So we've got a lot of compounding environmental factors, and unfortunately, perhaps the big bodies with the big money where the advertising is is behind You know, the big gaming industries, the screens, the tech, the processed foods, the medications, you know, there's not a lot of money behind the Eat well, behind the play in your front yard behind that, you know, that's another problem we have, right?

Dr Josh Madsen: 18:39

Yeah, yeah, no one makes money by you changing your diet and, and eating healthier diet and exercising, because those things are free technically, you know, yeah, no one makes money off of those. And so that's why they're not promoted. That's why they're not, you know, they're not spending huge amounts of money to get that in front of you. But those are the things that need to happen, and decreasing the other things that need, you know, the the poor foods and video game exposure, you know, you got to create an environment that is conducive to brain development. And the things that are free are typically the best.

Lucia Silver: 19:15

Yeah, that's absolutely. And within that, as well, Josh, you know, the research that is, and the way that our medicine is shaped, is around treatment, and allopathic medical prescriptions, and not around, let's look at what we can do. It's not causal, it's symptomatic. So there's another reason why maybe this information is hard to get ahold of, because all the money once again, is in the companies, the pharmaceutical companies who are dispensing drugs, who are not as interested in a kid finding exercises and rehabilitation programmes, but more interested in a kid getting prescribed with Ritalin somewhere down the road.

Dr Josh Madsen: 20:06

Yeah, yeah, there's a in you know, there's a time and a place for those things as well. But the, you know, a stimulant medication is going to stimulate the, the brain while they're on that stimulant medication. But when they're off of it, the brain, you need to stimulate it in a way that is natural, and they can do it constantly. And they can help to grow that brain and develop it rather than just covering up the covering up the problem by artificially stimulating the brain, you need to get the brain to actually mature and grow and develop. So that long term, those networks can actually develop in the brain. And we're not just covering up the symptoms. You know, and there's a lot of cases where we have a kid come in, and those DiMeo medications help us a lot to get them to be able to focus enough to do activities and to be able to grow that help reinforce the development of that brain as much as possible. But long term, it's not a solution.

Lucia Silver: 21:02

No, and it's in my opinion, right. And in your in your in your experience, perhaps more importantly, the aim of the game is to get them off it as soon as possible and creating the necessary stimulation naturally, as you say, it might be a an aid in the immediate term for focus in order to get them on a programme, but the name of the game is to get them off it so that you can deal with the root causes.

Dr Josh Madsen: 21:27

Yeah, yeah, exactly organ is, is the least amount of necessity as possible.

Lucia Silver: 21:33

Right, right. So well, there's just a few of the reasons why maybe this information is hard to get ahold of. But as many of you know, I've shared my son Quinn's story in a previous podcast. And now, Dr. Josh, I would love for you to shed some light on some of these root causes, we're going to kind of strip it back, we're going to begin very gently, with what the brain actually needs to develop healthily. And perhaps, we could start simply and slowly with some of the areas where we're going wrong. And what do we need to understand first and foremost, about what the brain needs?

Dr Josh Madsen: 22:17

Yep. So as simple as I can put it here, your brain needs three things. It needs stimulation. And when I say stimulation, it means there's a specific way that the brain develops. You know, in the first year of life, we have primitive reflexes that help our brain to grow under develop, which we're going to talk a lot more obviously going forward, because it's a big aspect of lack of development. But there's different exercises, there's different ways to stimulate those reflexes to develop, then our balance centres are developed and our eye tracking centres are starting to develop. And we'll talk about those later as well. But there's different exercises you can do to stimulate those different pathways to get them to grow. But then also, you need oxygen, and you need nutrients or what's called ATP for energy, oxygen and ATP are what allow those neurons to fire and connect and to grow and to develop. So those are the three basic things you need for development to occur. You know, and if you're not getting nutrients from your diet because you're eating a process die or you're eating maybe foods that are sensitive to and it's creating inflammation or that type of stuff, we're not going to get a, an appropriate amount of energy or ATP. And if they're not moving enough and exercising, they're not building their lung capacity, they're not, we're not going to get enough oxygenation for the brain to develop. So those are our three goals is get the appropriate movement strategies and to activate the brain, get them moving enough to have enough oxygen and get their diet regulated. So that way, they're getting the appropriate amount of nutrients needed for that brain to mature and develop.

Lucia Silver: 23:58

Right. So thank you broken that down really simply, for us to digest. What would you say then I'm in apparent listening to this might go okay, well, that's always been the case. It's always been the case since the beginning of time. So what's what's going on now with movement and exercise with oxygen and nutrition? I mean, in the first in the first instance, movement and exercise, right from birth, so the birth process, what's what's preventing that from happening? We've got a problem now that we didn't have before. So what's happening?

Dr Josh Madsen: 24:29

Yep, yep. So there's a lot of stuff, you know, even in utero, like different infections that can happen different medication use different, let's just say risk factors that can alter how the brain develops and matures and how different structures in the brain develop. But then when we get out of the womb, there's an aspect of you know, like, for example, breastfeeding is one of the thing that is associated with the, the most decrease in neurodevelopmental delays is breastfeeding, it's anti inflammatory, it gives stem cells it's it acts, it helps brain maturation and growth tremendously. And a lot of people, they're not getting that they're, you know, they go to whoever their healthcare provider and they say, Oh, well, we're not feeding Well, let's put them on a, a formula, well, that formula doesn't have nearly the amount of really good aspects that breast milk gives. And that's going to affect that. It also plays with the lack of connectivity with the parent and that type of stuff. Now, lack of stimulation with the parent that can do it. And then also, you know, we're kids aren't getting put on their belly enough to move and develop their movement, especially in those first early months. There isn't a in our society, there isn't a focus on getting them to army crawl, crawl appropriately walk on time, you know, even the CDC change recommendation said you don't even need to crawl which is Oh, wow, from a developmental standpoint is crazy Nicholas and, and they said, Yeah, and they said, a kid doesn't need to walk till 18 months. And I mean, that's extremely delayed. And those early motor milestones are indicative of brain development. And so if we're just pushing those milestones back, that's a big deal. Because that means that we're missing out on six months, that could have been an intervention that can actually help to restore that movement appropriately. You know, and then from an environmental standpoint, the foods that are seen as kids foods, you know, like mac and cheese and hotdogs, and all these different things are highly processed, they all have the nutrients is basically remove the natural nutrients is removed, and in the refortified nutrients. So, but those fortification nutrients is synthetic, and it's not healthy for us or appropriate for our biochemistry. So we're not eating enough food that is actually real food. And in my mind, food is something you can go out and you can pull off a tree pull out of the ground, or you can slaughter to make food. It's not doesn't come in a box, it doesn't. And that's a big thing that I think a lot of people probably misconstrue is like, well, it's mac and cheese is food, or it's really not food, it's not healthy for them, it's not going to give them the nutrients they need to grow under develop. So and then they're not moving enough, right, they're inside all day, then those things have to happen in that society, or that at least in your own home, those things need to change because they are foundational for development, right. And then as a kid gets into those school years, they're sitting all day, which is, I mean, they're at school, seven hours a day and sitting how many of them and they're outside for 230 minute recess is when they should be moving four to five hours a day. And then they're on you know, an iPad or a computer all day as well at a really young age, which is not beneficial for brain development, because they need to be moving.

Lucia Silver: 28:10

Right? Right. So it's compounding the issue that we've already created because the baby probably didn't move enough in the first place and then the kid doesn't move enough in the first place. And then you're checking in the process food and the screens and as we say it's like a compass. pounded, a compounded issue. And right now where we're looking at, I would say of all of these conditions or symptoms, ADHD is spreading like wildfire in the UK, I assume it's the same in the US. And it's, it's one that's getting an awful lot of attention, particularly as, as adults are getting diagnosed as well, much later in life. And it's making sense of what was going on at school and some of the difficulties they're having in their life in general. But I wanted to focus in just a little bit on sometimes it's helpful to rather than talking very broadly about all of the neurological conditions and all of the different reasons for them. If we hone in a little bit, it helps us to understand exactly how we get from A to Z, if you like with these with these symptoms. So So from my studies, I mean, it seems in the first instance, we've actually given the wrong name to this, to this ADHD, it's attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. It's a symptom. Correct? And what can you tell us first of all about what it actually is Josh, and what it entails?

Dr Josh Madsen: 29:37

Yeah, so there's different types of ADHD there's, you know, there's inattentive type, there's a hyperactive type, there's a mixed type. And I'll get into all the details of that. But the really, it's, it's a label for a set of symptoms. And those symptoms come from different areas of the brain, specifically our frontal lobe, right frontal lobe, our orbital frontal system, or dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, when either those are dysregulated, that can play into those two different types of the symptomatology that eventually gets diagnosed as ADHD. But the that frontal lobe develops through the development of through normal neurological development. And that gets missed in every single one of these kids. Like I've never seen a kid that has a diagnosis of ADHD that doesn't still have primitive reflexes that doesn't have balanced development issues, that doesn't have eye tracking issues, they can't keep their eyes stable at all. And from a developmental aspect, if you can't keep your eyes stable and focus your eyes, you can't focus your brain because your frontal eye fields sit behind your attentional networks and they in that those have to develop first you have to be able to focus your eyes to be able to focus your brain. So there's a lot of different developmental neurological aspects that don't develop. And really that's, that's the hallmark of every neurodevelopmental delay is you have delayed development in your brain or in these neurological systems. And the only way to really improve that is to improve their neurology improve their primitive reflex status, improve their balance, improve their eye tracking, improve these cognitive centres, there's a lot of different therapies out there that that address those that work to address those as much as possible. So rather than just labelling it as, as, you know, the symptoms as ADHD, like, there's routes that you can go to work to try to develop those systems. And when you do that, it's amazing. It's amazing what happens with with these kids of how their attention improves how their behaviours improve, just because the maturation the brain is starting to happen. Right.

Lucia Silver: 31:46

And actually, again, not to oversimplify, but it's like, these are all symptoms, ADHD, dyslexia, the various degrees of, of autism are all symptoms of one cause if you like, which is an imbalance somewhere in the brain so it's not it's not the be all and end all ADHD it's it's that is the result, as you say, of a lack of maturity in the development, which is resulted in some eyetracking difficult difficulties. And so I think we've, we've, we've ended up thinking that we have a battalion of disorders, a battalion of diseases, and they're all very different, but actually, they're all manifestations of a lack of development in the brain stemming from some quite similar reasons, right?

Dr Josh Madsen: 32:40

Correct. Yeah. And even like the, when you look at the basics of, of a lot of kids that I end up calling it true ADHD and not true ADHD, for whatever reason, my office because some kids that come in and out like me, and they have zero attentional abilities, they can not look at my finger, they like those attentional networks just truly are not developed at all. But then I'll have other kids that have really like they can focus, they can pay attention, but then like, they might just have a series of primitive reflexes like an asymmetrical tonic neck reflex, that every time they move their head, one side of their body flexes, the other one extends, so it's constantly throwing them off balance constantly making them move and it looks like they are just Honestly fidgeting or the or maybe they can't track their eyes appropriately because of that reflex being there and they can't cross midline, their eyes skip and jump, and they have a hard time focusing their eyes. Like so there's a lot of underlying things like primitive reflexes that can make a lot of symptoms that are similar to ADHD. And they may even get that diagnosis when the underlying issue is just lack of development of some different primitive reflexes. So, you know, there's a lot of different things like that, that mimic that or make the trait the same symptoms. But it's not actually truly a right frontal lobe developmental issue, like a true ADHD cases.

Lucia Silver: 34:05

Right. Okay. So if we went back then this might be the time to just have start explaining primitive reflexes. For some parents listening to you now, they've never heard that before. And I have to say many, many people in education and even in paediatrics that I've spoken to, don't know what primitive reflexes are. So let's, let's take take it back and and then explain to us if you would, first of all what they are. And if they are not inhibited, what starts to happen, please stop to chest. Yep.

Dr Josh Madsen: 34:38

So your paediatrician will typically check these reflexes in infancy, the problem that I find is they almost never check to make sure they went away. And what they are is so like, if you remember holding your infant, and they're really young, and you stick your finger in their hand, and they grass down. That's called a Palmer grasp reflex. That's a primitive reflex. And I'm gonna use this because it's really basic one easy to understand, but it's a reflex that we're born with. And the purpose of it is, we stick our finger in their hand, they grass down, the grass down, they start firing the muscles in their hand, they start firing the nerves to their brain in the areas of the brain that helped to coordinate their hand. And as they do that over and over and over again, it starts to activate and grow those areas of the brain, as those areas of the brain grow and develop, then our higher cortex comes in and shuts the reflex down and allows us to open up more complex movements with our hands. And so it's a way of when we're born, our higher cortex isn't developed. But these reflexes actually stimulate our cortex to the point where it starts to mature. And then now we can start regulating our body more appropriately, and then creating more and more and more complex movements. And that's really what helps to develop the brain. Another example is like when you stroke their cheek, or a mom puts a nipple to the, towards the face to feed, they open their mouth turn and start to suck, that's a rooting reflex, that reflex, this should go away right around three to four months of life. Same with like, the polymer grass should go away, right on three to four, some, some research would say up to six months. But it should go away at a certain point, right. And if it doesn't, what that tells you is those areas, the brain aren't maturing efficiently enough. They're not, we're not inhibiting those reflexes, and then that doesn't allow for more complex skills. Like, for example, at times, you'll find this in kids palmar grasp reflex and kids that have handwriting issues, and they still have that reflexive activity in their hands, which makes it hard for them to utilise their hands appropriately and create fine motor skills, or like a rooting reflex is known to play into the development of how their mouth moves. And so it can play a lot in the speech development or muscle tone in their face, which can play into like, you know, maybe they they drool a lot, or there's a lot of different symptomatology that can come from these different reflexes, but it's just because they haven't developed in more mature movement can happen around it.

Lucia Silver: 37:08

So they laid the foundation just just to sort of, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back and try and summarise a little bit of what you've said, because it's there's a lot of information there. And would you let me try here so, the primitive reflexes are, first of all in voluntary in nature, they are nature's way because we're, as I understand it, we're brain we're born with our brains very, very undeveloped, we actually come out with like 25% of our brain develop, the rest of the journey is still 75% of the brains journey is still to come. And so there are many things we need to do to survive from urinating, feeding, breathing, responding to things that are dangerous, hot and cold and so on. And because the brain is not yet at the stage, it needs to be these primitive reflexes happen without conscious thought. They are the way that the brain manages our survival before it has fully developed. So that being the case, as you say, that teaches the child to go to the bosom to to the nipple to feed to grasp the palm. And once the brain has got to a level understanding of where it needs to be it then she That's those primitive reflexes down because there are enough synapses developed skews my late lay language, but there's enough independent growth that they can shut those primitive reflexes down because there is an understanding of how to conduct itself. But if there hasn't been enough movement to train the brain to do those things, those primitive reflexes stay awake, I think in you call it, they're uninhibited or they haven't been retained. I think that's the expression that you use in your field. So they're still awake. And when they are awake, through, as we've said, lack of movement and various other reasons. What happens is the brain cannot develop to the next level, whether that's balance, whether that's learning, whether that's sitting still, whether that's retained attention, whether that is any of those things, it can't get to the next level, it's like the foundation architecture of the brain needs to complete before it can move to stage two.

Dr Josh Madsen: 39:34

Yep, that is a perfect explanation. In these reflexes are foundational for our sensory systems to develop for our balance centres to develop for eye movements to develop, and all those are foundational for our cognitive centres to develop in our attentional abilities to develop. So if you miss that foundation, you I mean, you don't have a foundation for proper brain development and growth. And these are all those things that we just mentioned, are all lower brain, brainstem, cerebellum, really lower brain functions in that lower brain, what we know about reading from different researches, the brain develops from the bottom up and from the back forward. Okay, so those reflexes are truly put are the foundation of proper brain development. And so many kids have missed that foundation.

Lucia Silver: 40:26

I mean, it's breathtaking, isn't it? You could almost say it's like you're trying to build a house without solid foundation and you're expecting the lights to switch on when you haven't even got an infrastructure. I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy to me that we don't, this isn't like the words that are bandied around by the mums coming out of you know, they're in their antenatal clinic, they should be talking primitive reflexes straightaway and understanding when we should see them and when they need to go away, and we just don't even know. So if we were to just come back again, to our slightly more specific example of, of ADHD, what would be and a tie in between the primitive reflexes, a specific primitive reflexes that might still be uninhibited, and a child with ADHD in the classroom? In other words, a child that we could help because we could teach how to inhibit this reflex. Could you talk a little bit about that for us, please?

Dr Josh Madsen: 41:29

Yeah, yep, I will find typically three to four different primitive reflexes. And nearly every kid that I see with that has attentional issues or ADHD. Number one is one called an asymmetrical tonic neck reflex, it's a reflex it should go away, right around six to seven, maybe eight months of life before kids starts to really crawl. A lot of times when we see like delays in crawling or walking, it has a lot to do with this reflex. But that reflex plays a lot into how our eyes develop the ability to keep them stable work together. And again, if you can't focus your eyes, you can't focus your brain also, it creates like when their head or their eyes move, their body reflexively wants to move. So it looks like they're moving all over the place a lot of times, but it's just because they're moving their eyes to look at. And maybe they're moving their eyes to the right to look at their teacher, their head of the right to get a teacher but then their body shifts to the left. So it makes them look like they're moving. Same with like, there's one called a symmetrical tonic neck reflex, it should go away right around eight months of life. And you can see this one developing really easy when a kid when an infant gets on their hands and knees and they start rocking back and forth. They're trying, they're developing this reflex. And it plays a lot into the ability to sit up straight for long periods of time and have good posture. And when they still have this reflex, they get uncomfortable pretty quickly and they constantly want to move and move around to get more comfortable. Also it when they bring their head down, their arms want to flex and they bring their head up, their arms extend. So it can play a lot into like handwriting issues and different things like that. And also reading issues because it plays a lot into how the eyes can work together and come in together and go out together and look up and down appropriately. Their eyes will skip when they have that reflex but then one of the most important one is one called the morrow or a startle reflex that should go away. Right around three to four months of life and what happened Anytime that if the child still has that reflex, anytime they move too quickly, light or sound comes into abrasively, they startle their pupils dilate, their heart rate goes up, and they get into a state of fight or flight. And then when you're in a state of fight or flight, you're, you're not going to focus on anything. So you know, like, let's say they're sitting in the classroom and a kid moves too quickly, they're going to get startled, really easily when they shouldn't get startled. And that's going to put them in a state of fight or flight and they're not going to be able to focus appropriately. Well, so it's constantly stealing their attention. And I'd say one another one that we often find is a spinal blunt reflex, which often makes kids look like they have ants in their pants. They're just, you know, they're constantly moving. And then they get in trouble for moving but it's just because when they sit back answer see it stimulates that reflex, and they it elicits a true neurological reflex where they move

Lucia Silver: 44:15

interesting and that that one also I remember learning. Josh, the spinal gland is also responsible for controlling urination when a lot of these kids have also got issues around Bedwetting, when they have ADHD. There's a connection there somewhere, too, right?

Dr Josh Madsen: 44:32

Yep, that plays into it a lot. The there's some other areas the brain like your frontal lobes is where your your micturition or bedwetting centres are that, you know, aren't well developed and stuff like that, too. But yes, the spinal gland is highly associated with bowel and bladder issues.

Lucia Silver: 44:49

Okay, and how interesting that you are consistently seeing, you said, there's virtually not a child that comes in with ADHD that what these three, there are many primitive reflexes, but these three important reflexes are still active and what breaks my heart. Only few weeks back just at the end of term. You know, I'm watching a lot of these parents standing with the teacher day in day out being told about their kids bad behaviour. Some of them have been diagnosed with ADHD, some not. And I just look at it. And I think, you know, getting labelled a bad kid when this has really nothing to do with behaviour per se. It they just can't help it. Right, Josh?

Dr Josh Madsen: 45:31

Correct. Perfect example, we had a kid come from Texas last week. And we'll be posting them on our social media and you know, his story, but like he came with, he was really aggressive towards the siblings, really, he was aggressive in school, he was having, you know, attentional issues and stuff. And he'd have these massive outbursts that you'd be throwing and hitting and all of these types of things, right? Well, after the the second day of intensive of working on these primitive reflexes, and doing some other stuff for inflammation and those types of things. It stopped, you know, he still had an outburst, but it wasn't aggressive. You know, he went home, we got a message last week, or sorry, this week, he went home, and he's no longer aggressive towards the siblings. And he's, you know, he's not having, he went and did a neuro psych eval, and they found nothing. And I mean, I was, when he first came, there is no way he shouldn't have been diagnosed with ADHD, like, even from my perspective, which I'm not a huge fan of diagnosing in general. But I mean, he had a very clear symptom associated with that. But within a few days of working on these primitive reflexes, and getting his brain to actually mature and create connections, all that change so and that's what we see very often is by getting rid of these reflexes, and creating that foundation allows the rest of the brain to start to make connections in mature. So the really, really important aspect is getting rid of reflexes.

Lucia Silver: 46:58

Oh, do you know I mean, Josh, I've been reading this and studying this for six months or more now. And I just I'm listening to I'm still going, Wow, I just I just, it is hard to believe that this is not out there and common knowledge and that these primitive reflexes are causing such a huge number of the issues. And so too, is the consequent develop mental milestones that were missing that then cause further brain imbalance and further issues down the line. But just to move on to to the more positive aspect of this. And this was as revelatory to me is understanding that the brain grows through movement is that the brain is neuro plastic, there is something called neuroplasticity, which in short means, we can retrain and re hardwire the brain starting with In fact, the primitive reflexes. So would you be happy to talk to us a little bit about how we can re hardwire with movement, the correct stimulation and that this is thinking of Quinn's class where there's at least eight of the 30 kids that's almost a third of his class, specifically with attention issues, that there is actually something we can do.

Dr Josh Madsen: 48:15

Yeah, the brain is constantly changing. I mean, it's constantly growing. It's constantly adapting and I mean, that's the whole mark of a human has the ability to, to adapt to the environment that we're in, right. And so we know it can constantly change and research is very clear on that it can constantly grow and develop. And if there's injured areas, new synapses can grow around it like, that's, it's a well known now that that can happen, right? The younger they are, the easier it is. And the more structure true big structural changes you can make, the younger they are. So just in general, the earlier the better, the older they get, the harder it gets, because the structure can't change as much, but the still we can get that neuroplastic change or that the synapse is to to improve. And there is what's the right words is there's always limitations. But the many, many, many times those their kids are not functioning or developing even close to what those limitations are. And those limitations are dictated a lot by their environment a lot by, you know, stress, prenatal stress or stress inside the womb or stress in the first years of life. And that, you know, that created true structural changes in the brain. But those neurons are fair. I mean, they're, especially in kids, they're extremely efficient at changing, which is really fun to see. And that's why honestly, that's why I love working with kids is because you get to see significant changes really pretty quickly, within a matter of, you know, days to weeks to maybe even months, depending on the severity of the case. But you see really significant changes, which is really fun. And that means that brain is maturing and developing and creating plasticity in it.

Lucia Silver: 50:04

Right, right. And so important for us to hear this because, again, I don't think it's I think we've been told to sort of accepted as a as I've spoken about with Cohen is an interesting quirk in his personality, that's just unique, or it's a great superpower the positive side of some of these disorders, ignoring the negative challenges and emotional irregularities that happen. But we're also told that it might just go away. And we know that it doesn't go away, it generally only worsens. And in in your clinic, I was super interested to looking at the results of the of the hundreds of kids that pass through that actually 50 to 70% of the results that you're achieving. With the kids or parents bringing them in assessing primitive reflexes have been achieved simply by addressing the primitive reflexes alongside obviously lifestyle factors like food sensitivities, and reducing video game usage. But but it doesn't have to be a very, very long and complex brain development. Re hardwiring process sometimes as you said earlier on with the case you mentioned with ADHD, you're getting results purely from movement based exercises around inhibiting primitive reflexes.

Dr Josh Madsen: 51:29

Yeah, I tell my colleagues all the time, like man, I feel like I won the lottery when I learned about primitive reflexes because I mean, it see if I can only do one thing with a kid, like let's say someone said that you can only do this one thing. And that's the only thing you can work on with a kid. I would only work on primitive reflexes. I mean, it's a huge percentage of our practice anyways, because it makes such a difference for him. It makes it sets up their brain for everything else. And yeah, so when we do like, we do initial assessments, and we've worked with them for a period of time, typically within three months, and I almost don't care what a kid comes in with whether it's behavioural issues, attentional issues, learning issues, whatever it is, just by working on their primitive reflexes for six weeks to three months. I always ask them, it's a subjective of, you know, what percentage better would you say your child is, and this area, this area, this area, and based off their, you know, issues they came in with, and I always get 50 to 70 to 80% better just by working on primitive reflexes, the other 10% or 20%, or 30%, it's coming from typically coming from either systems that need to develop, because their primitive reflexes didn't develop, like maybe their balance centres, their eye tracking centres, or those types of things. Or there's some different lifestyle factors that need to be addressed. Or maybe there was an injury to a point where you we can only get so much neuroplasticity to happen and so much change to happen based off of the extent of the trauma. Right,

Lucia Silver: 53:04

right. But the point being, you're seeing a revolution, really through these primitive reflex alone, I mean, it is staggering what you'll see from that and and if we were to give parents some indication, you've said that these Kids come in to see you. And over a six week period, you start to see a 50 to 70% improvement if parents were to start to look at implementing some of this through guidance at home, similarly, if there weren't other complications, what sort of exercise programme? Would you be looking at? Like, how many times a day and for how long? And what's the commitment involved? Josh? Yeah,

Dr Josh Madsen: 53:54

I will typically have someone, when they're in my practice, and we're doing stuff with them, I'll have them do primitive reflex exercise at home three times a day, but very few reps. So like, there might only be doing 10 repetitions. So like, the whole depends on how many reflex they have, but it probably only takes them three to 10 minutes tops like to work on those reflexes. If they're not in the office, then I will typically have them do have more reps. So it might take a little bit longer. But the it really is not a big commitment from a time aspect in the the the rewards are ginormous. Enormous. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it does, yes, it does take some time, it does take commitment it takes more importantly, it takes consistency. It's not hard, none of the movements are challenging. They are just foundational in things that a lot of kids missed, but it's just the consistency over time, just like anything in life. You know, if you want to be better at a sport, you consistently work at that sport, you know, like It's same as any other aspect of life, it's consistency over time is what makes the big benefits.

Lucia Silver: 55:04

Yes, and I think consistency is an important message with this. And I can absolutely concur that with Quinn, it was never about getting down and you know, doing anything for half an hour, we do three sets of exercises that take at best 10 minutes. And that's what we that's what we've done for four months now. And we're continuing to do and changing various aspects of it under, under under your guidance and under all the studying and information that we now have access to. So it is definitely not about setting your child apart and taking hours out of school or I think you know, some some parents may think oh my god, how am I going to fit this in? How can I support this programme? How can I do this? But I think if I'm anything to go by and if Dr. Josh's results with his kids in clinic and how he tailors their programmes at home is anything to go by? It's it's it's small bite size pieces consistently, isn't it? Yeah,

Dr Josh Madsen: 56:05

I always tell him wake up five minutes earlier, before you go to school head on when you get home from school before you go to bed. Or if they're homeschooled, I just haven't do it in between subjects, like when they're taking a little break. And I like to at least have 20 minutes in between them. And that's really it. That's my my my rules there is determine few times a day. And don't make sure that at least 20 to 30 minutes apart. Wow.

Lucia Silver: 56:28

Incredible. It's really not very much as you say for the outstanding and transformative results that we'll see. And I appreciate this as we're talking to Dr. Josh now about these foundational elements of the brain there is more that we will talk to Josh about in future episodes to do with balancing the brain hemispheres what's called Brain lateralization Is that correct Josh, the left side and the right side of the brain, which if these primitive reflexes once they've been inhibited sometimes with when there is further work to do to develop the sensory and the vestibular and the balance and the eye tracking and all of this plays into the left and the right side of the brain playing like an orchestra if that's a nice image to use. Yep,

Dr Josh Madsen: 57:17

yep, the liquid. I'm working on getting rid of primitive reflexes. I'm really only working on trying to activate one side of the brain at a time it's really quite interesting when you use the right sensory modalities to activate. Let's say a kid has a right to their brain is maybe not as efficient as the left and you're doing stuff on the left side of their body to activate the right cortex there. primitive reflexes will improve dramatically very shortly and if you go to the opposite side and stimulate the wrong side, it actually makes them a lot stronger, which is a that's from a lot of Dr. Molina's work. We're learning that ladder ality and that hammer, it's called a hammer ferocity is really, really important for helping to get rid of these primitive reflexes, which is a really great concept that's developed over the last, you know, 1015 20 years through through Dr. Molina's work in Dr policeman's work.

Lucia Silver: 58:10

Wow. I mean, it's it's as we say, it's like swallowing an elephant is subject but it can be broken down. We are breaking it down. And we are seeing extraordinary ways of getting parents at home drug free To make a serious difference and improvement to our children's to our children's lives.

Unknown: 58:33

Is there anything else? Yeah, in general,

Dr Josh Madsen: 58:35

I would say the things that make the biggest change are the most simplistic. Like if you can get their diet regulated if you can get them consistently activating their brain through different sensory sort of different exercises, activities, movement based stuff, and you can get them moving and playing and breathing heavy and you know, getting plenty of oxygen, their brain, those three things alone are going to make a significant improvement in how the brain functions. And then you can get more complex once that becomes a good habit.

Lucia Silver: 59:06

Right? Well, that's that is beautifully and simply rounded up for us and we'll be hearing more from Dr. Josh. Over the forthcoming episodes. You're I have promised to bridge the gap of science and parenthood as best I can. And I believe that the true mothership is information. And I hope that you'll agree that Dr. Josh has armed us today with a huge amount of enlightening information that empowers us through explanation and revelation on our journey to transformation with our children. Please listen to this again, to ensure you digest all its goodness. This is just the start of some solid scientific understanding of the root causes behind symptoms of brain imbalance such as ADHD, as well as the importance of primitive reflexes, which when addressed and inhibited, through specific exercises will produce the most remarkable changes and improvements in the challenges our children are facing. And, of course, the empowering news. Just heard it from Dr. Josh that science knows the brain can be re hardwired, can get back in sync and grow healthily with a tailored drug free movement based programme. So a heartfelt thank you to Dr. Josh for sharing your expertise and insights. Your dedication to healing children and families is truly inspiring.

Unknown: 1:00:29

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.