Unveiling the Mysteries of Divination and Prophecy with Ayaba

Can divination tools truly connect us with the spirit world? In our latest episode, spiritualist Ayaba Nguyen takes us on a mesmerizing journey through diverse divination practices from around the globe. From casting shells and reading tarot cards to interpreting tea leaves, Ayaba reveals the profound ways these methods bridge our world with the spiritual realm. She also shares her spine-chilling experiences with the Ouija board, cautioning listeners about the potential dangers of invoking spirits without proper protection.

Our conversation doesn't stop there. We delve into the nuances of divination, prophecy, and fortune-telling, breaking down how positive and negative energies are identified and managed. Ayaba introduces us to the concept of odoo, and we learn about the critical role of a Baba Lau in addressing complex spiritual issues. She also emphasizes the importance of thorough preparation for divination practices, including cleansing rituals and prayers, to ensure accurate and clear readings.

Finally, we touch on the ethical responsibilities inherent in spiritual practices, especially within African traditions. Ayaba and I discuss the necessity of continuous learning, humility, and responsible mentorship. We also explore the impactful role of spiritual masses in developing one's abilities and the protective measures essential for inviting benevolent spirits. This deep-dive into the spiritual world underscores the significance of grounding oneself and maintaining discipline to harness the true power and responsibilities of spiritual gifts. Don't miss this episode if you're ready to uncover the profound connection between divination and the spirit world!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Peace world. It's your brother, mikey Fever. Nyp Talk Show. We have today our special guest Ayaba Nguyen, spiritualist. Locum me if I got it correct. I don't want to butcher your word.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Yeah, locum me.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Locum me all right. Sister's deep y'all, Y'all need to get in tune with her, and today we'll be talking about divination. How are you feeling so far?

Speaker 2: 0:31

I feel great. I think it's such a deep and rich topic. There's so many forms of divination which are basically tools to connect with spirit and whatever entities you're trying to, you know, have a dialogue with or to get it to seek answers and guidance from. And then you know the systems vary from tradition to tradition.

Speaker 1: 0:59

That's a fact, definitely so. For those who don't know, I'm going to ask you. The first question is for the listeners purpose.

Speaker 2: 1:16

What is divination and how is it defined across different cultures? For that would be just, you know, being able to connect with spirit through using different tools, whether it's shells, whether it's, um you know, the Apelle chain in IFA, um Iquines, um you know. Chomolongos, you know. And Palo, um I don't know, what they use in Haitian voodoo.

Speaker 1: 1:41

Um, it, as you said it, it ranges, is based based on regions, practice and tools. Some people use, like the tabard cards, the playing cards. Yeah, some people use gum. As you say, divination through communicating with the spirits. Um, I've seen places where people use coffee, coffee um, ground coffee yeah, they coffee grinds, tea grinds, you know, they can read water. Water mirrors.

Speaker 2: 2:08

Mirrors, you know. Candle flames, you know, of course, like you said, the tarot cards, oracle cards. These are all. There's so many ways to connect with spirit, but, oh, the Ouija board, which is like that's a hot topic.

Speaker 1: 2:24

Yes, it is. That's the playground right there.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Yeah, it is the playground and so you know, and the Ouija boards are still being sold today from Target. You know different stores because it's you know it's a game that goes back you know many decades and but you know the danger with that is is that you know there's no distinction between, you know good spirits and spirits. You know that are dark or, like you know lost and roaming, sinister.

Speaker 1: 2:57

You know entities yeah, you just channeling anything, you and plus you didn't set up like a perimeter to protect yourself, a circle, whatever.

Speaker 2: 3:05

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 3:07

You know and.

Speaker 2: 3:08

I've had so many friends like well, you know, when I was younger, um, in high school, I went to a girlfriend's house and she had the Ouija board. Her mother wasn't there and she's like, okay, let's play the Ouija board. We play the Ouija board and, um, you know, we started hearing noises. You know, she thought I was moving the piece. Um, I wasn't moving the piece, she wasn't moving the piece. And uh, you know, then we, you know, with the questioning to determine what that spirit was that was controlling the board, it turned out to be a very dark spirit that died, you know, a violent death, and you know there was a little bit of a possession going on her end.

Speaker 2: 3:55

And you know after that time that I went to her house like I didn't go back and I didn't see her again.

Speaker 1: 4:01

That's crazy. Yeah, that would happen. Unwelcome spirits you bring in. If you're not guarded, you uncover yourself.

Speaker 2: 4:08

You have trouble, you get in trouble, yeah definitely, and I think for like, a lot of people, like that's, you know well, not for a lot of people, but I think you know people see it as like a you know a regular game to have at parties, a, you know a regular game to have at parties, you know they make light of it. But, like, I also know someone else who, um, when they were about 11 or 12, um, they went to a sleepover. Then they went from that girl's house to another girl's house, they played the played the Ouija board there and, um, this particular person that I know, that I'm very close with, she got possessed by a demonic entity.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Playing around too much?

Speaker 2: 4:55

What'd you say?

Speaker 2: 4:56

Playing around too much you know, picked her up, she was speaking different language, growling, you know, all like that demonic, that possession is real and so they had to hire a priest or a pastor to like remove the energy off of her but like, from that time, like her life was always plagued with like drug addiction, like all kinds of like stuff and like you know, serious um health problems. You know Um, and she's, you know she's fairly young, so that is like that kind of divination, you know, trying to tap in the spirit, Very dangerous. You know I work in an esoteric, you know crystal shop, bookshop in Union Square, you know that Namaste, and you know, honestly, that that is a tool that they use in addition to tarot cards, in addition to you know, you know each thing or, and I don't know if whose energy prepped that food for you if you're not prepping it yourself Exactly Cigarettes, whatever you do, because you got to remember that plant before it has been processed and put in whatever form yes, Energy form.

Speaker 1: 6:37

So you know people touching certain things. It's a wide ring, it's a wide field and people need to take that consideration. When you walk in the streets, you walk past people who have negative energy on them or positive. When you're coming across spirits and you never know have you seen that movie Fallen with Denzel Washington. Oh yeah, the Tom's on my side.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Yes. And so that is very real as well, like that passing of the spirit from one person to another, like that passing of the spirit from one person to another. Like you know, and you know you gotta be careful who you touch, who you shake hands with, who you know you lay down with all these things, because, like there are these dark spirits that move from one person to another. They're like vampires or like parasitic, you know, entities that need a host to thrive.

Speaker 1: 7:25

Even your words have power.

Speaker 2: 7:27

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 7:29

So I want to get into the second question. What are the different types of divination practice worldwide?

Speaker 2: 7:34

We covered that already, but you know to get more specific according to region, say the Caribbean. Yeah, I would say the Caribbean. It's like you know, um, the shells that we call it, the deal of gone, the deal of goon, or the caracoles, um, you can also use the e-kines, uh, which are a type of like seed um that's found in west africa, uh, through the um, the system of v pha um, and they also have the opele chain, um, uh, which is also used to divine uh as well. And then you have the, the chomolongos, which are like, um, they're the uh, the shell of the, the coconut, they're the coconut shell that have been filed down and they're filed down into four pieces that you can throw, and that's in Palo, palo, mayombe, and then you also, you can also throw tiger shells and Palo as well.

Speaker 2: 8:36

There's different lines of Palo, and so each line may do something slightly different than the other, or lineages, and then, like, then you have old B, which is the coconut, the actual meat of the coconut, which is, you know, carved into four pieces or cut into four pieces, with the skin side, which is the dark side, the brown side, and then the flesh, which is the white side, which is the dark side, the brown side, and then the flesh, which is the white side, and so that will give you with the combinations of two white, two black or two dark, you know, three white, like there's different combinations that give you different answers for yes and no questions.

Speaker 1: 9:21

Yes, that's deep right there. So this is a perfect segue to this question how, how, um how do diviners enter into interpret signs of omens in their respective practices?

Speaker 2: 9:34

Yeah, so, like you know, um, you know I've been seated to read the lagoon that the cowrie shells, with many years of like studying, will do, um, and I'm sure, like I'm, I'm very young as far as like, uh, divination and that system. But, like you know, you have to determine, like where is this blessed? Is this reading? Are these energies coming in array or sobo? Array or blessings? And a sobo is like it's not good. So it's like you know you have to determine is it coming in array or sobo? Then you have to determine who are the blessings coming from, who's the osobo coming from? And then you got to determine how to remedy it. Like what are things, what are offerings or sacrifice or ebos that need to be done to resolve the issue, to get more of the blessings, to lock in the blessings?

Speaker 2: 10:30

or to clear away the negative energy.

Speaker 1: 10:33

It's usually in a bos like what if you could elaborate on that like a sacrifice or a counter?

Speaker 2: 10:37

Yeah, it's an offering. It's an offering so, like, you know you there's, you know there's different osobo, so you can have, you know it could be. You know you there's. You know there's different Osobos so you can have, you know it could be. You know death is around you. You know calamity, tragedy it could be. You know chaos and confusion, it could be sickness. You know all of these are the Osobos. These things are, like, you know, dark things that could be witchcraft, and so you know, through the process of divination, you know we're able to determine where this Osobo is coming from. Is it coming from a woman? Is it coming from a man? Is it, you know, coming from, you know, whatever you, is it coming from the person's head? You know what I'm saying. And then how do we remedy it. But, as you know, depending on how the shells fall, what are the signs, what are the odoo and what are the pateki, the stories that come with it, that all inform the reading. So, you know, give the person the big picture as to what's happening with them.

Speaker 1: 11:36

You just gave a whole lot of information right there. What is an odoo?

Speaker 2: 11:41

So an odoo, it's. You know, sometimes they call it a letter, or letter or um number, and so it's a combination of how the shells fall, Okay. And so there's a parent and there's a child, odoo, so the, the, the um, the shells are cast twice, okay, and then to come up with whatever combination of um number or or do that? Come up with that there's certain um refrains, sayings and then stories that go with those two numbers that fall, okay, and then you have to be able to know those numbers to be able to explain what it is to the client who's getting read. And then you know, just through exploration, you know, explore, like you know, okay, you know, is this the Orisha, what Orisha is bringing, this blessing, this array, you know, is it Agon? Is it the ancestors? You know, so it is, there's so many layers to it and is really rich.

Speaker 2: 12:44

And, like you know, I'm continually, constantly a student, you know, because there's so many different combinations. And so you know, usually, as you know, santeros, at least in my line, we read up to a Gila which is 12. We read up to a Gila which is 12. Um, and then, after 12, because there's 16, you know, cowrie shells that we um, divine with Um. And so you know, if it goes above 12, then we defer to a Baba Lau. And then you know, some of the issues are, you know, much more serious, much more complex, and that's where a Baba Lau takes over to try and figure out what the remedy is to help the person.

Speaker 1: 13:28

Oh, that's deep.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:31

So I have that's a lot right there. So how does divination differ from prophecy or fortune telling?

Speaker 2: 13:41

Well, you know, I'd like I, I don't know like to me, like fortune telling. It's so kind of like hokey, it's so like, you know, hollywood, when they talk about fortune telling, you know, and then I'm aware that there's, you know, groups of people, large groups of people, who represent a certain religious and spiritual tradition, who want to cluster everything under fortune telling and that that's bad and it's witchcraft and this, this and that Really it's just, you know, it's connecting with spirit. Whatever you and I use this word spirit, you know, in a blanket way, because spirit could be the Loa, spirit could be the Egwun, the ancestors, the Muertos, spirit could be the Orishas.

Speaker 2: 14:27

you know, spirit could be the angels. Spirit could be the spirit guides. You know, spirit could be anything in broad.

Speaker 1: 14:36

Nature.

Speaker 2: 14:37

In nature, right, and so you know. You know, if you can prophecy, like that's you just being able to see things. You know being clairaudient, you know clairvoyant, clairsentient, you know being able to connect with spirit that way. But sometimes people either need a little help in tapping into spirit, so that's why they'll light a candle, they'll put a glass of water, or they'll use tarot cards, or they use, uh, use, oracle cards or they'll, you know, in hoodoo they tap into my god brothers. Uh, you know the.

Speaker 2: 15:13

He is next to dr john as far as, like, being the hoodoo man, so he leads with bones, you know he divines with the chicken bones, and so some people need a little bit of help. They need some help. Or you know, guidance, or that they use these different tools to kind of trigger, you know, the conversation, to ignite the flame, to like, get the conversation going, and then from there, like you know, some people, they can leave the cards and all of a sudden they start tapping into spirit and they start hearing things. They start, you know, hearing the names of people and the story they start seeing. So you know, some people can see it like it's a movie playing out when a person sits down with them to get a reading. You know it's so many different ways spirit can come.

Speaker 1: 16:02

I got you and that's deep right there because it does flow. Once that channel is open, it's like multiple lines begin to open and you know, taking consideration, people may have ancestors that many want to come through and speak and guardians and such and such, and it's like it's just passing, you know, to relay messages and such Exactly Messengers.

Speaker 2: 16:22

So and so like, when you can like. I don't mean to interrupt, but, like you know, you don't have to be, like, initiated as a high priest or whatever to be able to divine, but you do have to when you are seeing people who are coming to you and seeking help and guidance. Like you gotta be of sound mind, body and spirit. Like you gotta have good character, because if you're someone that's got a lot of shit with them part of my French, you know and like you're not, you know living the best way you could possibly live. You know, and there's other things that are interfering with your ability to connect with spirit and to read others. Like your stuff can interfere with the reading of others. And so, you know, I'm a part of, like, a huge tarot community on YouTube. Like there's literally thousands, if not a million, at least a million people out there. There's literally thousands, if not a million, at least a million people out there, huge tarot community. And, like you know, I love the community.

Speaker 2: 17:23

But there's some people who are like there's no way I would take advice from them, there's no way I would sit down in front of them and allow them to like, give me advice, like, like, who are you Like? What is your background? Like what? Did you just smoke? Or, like you know, okay, some people smoke to open up their you know their spiritual eye and whatever. I'm not knocking that, but like you got to look at the whole picture and it's very dangerous when people sit down before you seeking your help and your guidance. If you're not right, things are not going to be right. The reading is not going to be right for that person.

Speaker 1: 18:02

Now, you're right A hundred percent and I agree with you with that Cause you can't be um. You know some people use um, what they say to marijuana as a sacrament, as you said, to open up a channel to relax them and such and such. But you can't come in on it. You can't do a read for somebody. If you want some hard narcotics, you talk about going to give me a reading like man.

Speaker 2: 18:21

Yeah, and for some people it's cool, Like for some people it triggers that and it opens up their spiritual eye and that's good. But there's other things that are coming into play and you know, if you're reading with someone who likes to throw dark shit and be thrown witchcraft at this person and that person, you know what I'm saying. Their frequency is there, it's fragmented.

Speaker 1: 18:45

What do you?

Speaker 2: 18:46

think that they're going to be bringing to your reading.

Speaker 1: 18:49

Darkness. Thank you, I have a question for you. This is off. Say somebody comes to you and say look, I'd like to have some divination done, a reading. How do you, the diviner, prep yourself before you start that?

Speaker 2: 19:05

Um, you know, before I do readings, like you know, private readings, um, you know, I definitely, you know, cleanse myself. You know there's a certain ritual that I do, you know, cleaning off with different, you know, colonas and perfumes and spiritual baths. Yes, exactly. And you know, I also say prayers, you know, at my abobada, which is a place where I connect with my spirit. Guides.

Speaker 1: 19:33

What is?

Speaker 2: 19:33

abobada. The abobada has glass. It has a god glass which is a large glass of water. In the center it's an altar to connect to my spiritual entourage Right, my spiritual court, my cordona spiritual. So you know, I'll go there and I'll say prayers and, you know, I'll say thank you for being in my life. You know, help me to be able to read these people. You know, yada, yada, yada and I pray, you know, for you know everything to come clearly and accurately, you know, and I give them prayers, you know, and then I'll clean off in front of them and in front of the glasses. Some people have seven glasses, some people have nine glasses at their ebovara, um, and that's, you know, where I clean off with the colonas, and everyone has like every culture has a variation of that where they go to clean off. And then you know if I'm, you know, reading and divining with the cards, either tarot or Oracle, I read myself first.

Speaker 2: 20:32

So I get my myself out the way.

Speaker 1: 20:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:35

And then I proceed to read the people. You know, um, because it's like no way that I want my stuff interfering with their stuff If I'm neglecting my spiritual health. Who, who and who am I like? Yeah, I'm, you know I'm. I'm initiated as a you know, a Santera. You know I have over 10 years. You know I've been in the tradition since 2000. You know I got family that go way back and spiritistas and all this. I'm still humble. You know what I'm saying. Like, who am I to be reading people if my shit's not right?

Speaker 1: 21:14

You know what I'm saying. If I'm not right, so that's real right there, because you have to be right before you could, you know, impart wisdom or these services to others Because, as you mentioned, your frequency, your energy, your lack of, should we say, spiritual discernment and discipline to throw everything off.

Speaker 2: 21:30

I'd say so. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 21:33

I have another question. Say somebody, a random person, would like to get involved in these practices as far as divination to learn and I know many are born with the gift, some develop the gift and there are those that practice it which books would you recommend for somebody who would like to get involved in this kind of practice?

Speaker 2: 21:55

In my tradition, we everyone starts out with the, the alan kardec book. Okay, on spiritualism, which is the book of prayers okay, they have it in different languages.

Speaker 1: 22:08

Um, you're messing with me.

Speaker 2: 22:09

You're messing with me yes, oh my god, it's right there. You got it like that's the bible yeah and so there's a modernized version, which is amazing. One of the Babalows, baba Ife Kunle, he got it for me. He's uptown in the Lenox Towers up in Harlem, but I have the modern version of that, which is so helpful because you know, in that, alan Kardec, the Alec Kardec, book. Yes, that book is a little like. Everyone knows that the words, some of the words, don't make sense. But it was the translation that went bad.

Speaker 2: 22:55

Exactly Everything get lost in translation, so you really have to cross-reference this book with other practitioners to get the yes you know, but I gotta tell you, once I find that book, I'll I'll um give you the title, the book that is the modern version of that, which is like amazing and it it hasn't compromised, like the, the gist of what the prayers are supposed to be. You know, um, you know activating or whatever, but definitely that book, um, you know activating or whatever, but definitely that book, um, you know, and really can you really read like I. There's a you know um, the other, um, santero, that like he's like he is so knowledgeable in the tradition Um Baba, um, obade Dayo, he has a book, a glass of water and a candle and I think it's on Amazon, but that's an amazing book to get to develop spiritually. He's a priest of Shango Um and he's also an Oba, he's an Oriente Um and he's like he's so knowledgeable about our tradition. But like he has that book.

Speaker 2: 23:53

But other than that, it's like. You just gotta like, you gotta work your spirit and in my tradition you gotta attend spiritual masses, white table tables, mesa Blanc, mesa Blanc, yes, you know um, you know we call them Misas, right, and so you gotta sit down with um you know other skilled spiritualists and we gotta find out what spirits are walking with you. Can you in fact pass the spirit? Can you get montau? Are you?

Speaker 1: 24:22

you know, a horse, a caballo you know and what spirits walk to you. Can you break it down? Can you break it down for the viewers and listeners?

Speaker 2: 24:31

um. For what?

Speaker 1: 24:33

as far as montau, passing spirits for those who, yeah, montau means you?

Speaker 2: 24:37

do you get mounted with the spirit? Do spirits mount you as like a spiritual medium to be able to deliver messages in these spiritual meetings that we have? Okay, spiritual meetings can be two, three people. They can be up to 25 people. On what line? You know spiritual lineage that you come from. You know I've been to spiritual masses, misas, where it's a whole basement and people are sitting down.

Speaker 2: 25:06

There's like 20 or 30 people in the circle and the heads of the table are getting mounted with the spirit or getting messages from the spirit from the Egun the Muertos, the spirit guides, and delivering messages to all the other people that are sitting in this circle to get the message.

Speaker 1: 25:26

So what is that? It's like more like a seance.

Speaker 2: 25:29

It is kind of like a seance, but it is controlled Like there's, and you can't just sit down and put a white tablecloth on the table, light a candle with a glass of water and go to it. There's a whole series of prayers, there's a whole ritual of prayers that must be said to invite only spirits of the light into this spiritual meeting and that any dark energies, they are not allowed, they are not permitted. So that's where that, out of that alley, uh ala kardec books, um, those prayers come into play you know, I had this book like for like two years.

Speaker 1: 26:11

I have yet to crack it open. Shout out to my godmother she recommended me this book at one point because you know I was going to go take that walk in that Ifa path.

Speaker 2: 26:21

But she's like, nah, stay where you at, you know no because in Ifa they're not really the Babalows aren't able to pass spirit. You know so when we go into spiritual masses, the Babalows attend, but they sit outside the circle, at least in the lines that I know about.

Speaker 3: 26:41

What's going on, Ayaba? How you doing.

Speaker 1: 26:43

How are you, brother Ron, in the building?

Speaker 3: 26:45

What's up?

Speaker 1: 26:48

For those who aren't listening Ron is a big voodoo priest, the biggest voodoo priest I ever met.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Oh my goodness, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 26:55

Yeah, he's taking Hennessy bottles and he be pouring out rum and I'm messing with y'all now ron, ron, ron, but ron has a lot of knowledge about that, so it's a knowledgeable brother. Knowledgeable brother on these topics as well, because we connected on different levels on that. Say, for instance, if I want to attend a MESA, say somebody's just curious, I'd like to attend a MESA. Who do they get in contact with? Do they go to any spiritual store, botanica, and ask somebody?

Speaker 2: 27:38

and ask somebody look, I like to have divination done to attend a misa or such well, yeah, I mean, you know it depends, like for me and the one with my godchildren. You know, definitely the godchildren have to have a conversation with me. You know they're not going anywhere if I'm not there, right, because they're, they're young in the tradition, they don't know they may be able to pass the spirit, but god forbid, they go to one of these spiritual misas and they pass the spirit that they don't have control of, no one knows how to deal with it, and then they wind up going to the g building at kings county hospital, if that's yeah, I heard stories like that before.

Speaker 1: 28:20

Yeah, or somebody you know within the voodoo culture. It's like that too, with that divination.

Speaker 2: 28:25

somebody pass spirits and say, for instance, you don't have people that are around you that actually care about you, know how they are knowledgeable yeah so you got to go where people are skilled and so, yeah, if you're new to the tradition, you can ask the people that run a reputable botanica, because some botanicas are a hot mess.

Speaker 2: 28:45

OK they're, they're terrible. So or you can, like you know, just connect with someone and you know, kind of feel them out. But like, of course, if you know a priest, a santero santera, a jugan, a mambo, whatever, and they are connected, you just say, like you know, when is your next spiritual mass? But of course too that if you have a godparent, a madrina, a padrino that is guiding you and ushering you into the tradition, you have to get permission from them. You cannot just show up.

Speaker 1: 29:21

You can't. Now. What I wanted to say is that some people do pass spirits and say if you're around people that are not knowledgeable, that have ill intentions, while you in that state, they can have you do like different work for different people, and by the time you leave there, either you're crazy or you're draining up all your energy.

Speaker 2: 29:36

Yeah, they can enslave you. They can enslave you. They do whatever they want. You know what I'm saying. It's like nah, you can't, don't go to things by yourself, especially if you're new and you don't know the people. Well, you know what I'm saying and, like you know, you always got to like. You just got to be able to assess people. You know you're people. You're not going to be able to tell everything about a person in the first shot or the second shot, but there's so much it's very dangerous. I know there's people out there who are new to the tradition. They get excited, they get a little bit of knowledge and then they go run with it and then they try to set up a whole Mesa in their house.

Speaker 1: 30:17

No skilled priest.

Speaker 2: 30:19

They don't have any skilled priests up in there, they just want to play games with the spirit. And then when people start popping off, I've been to Mesas where people have picked up baseball bats and were possessed with the spirit and they tried to kill another person because the spirit that mounted them was so dark and, you know, unevolved, it was the night. It was bad, it was really bad.

Speaker 1: 30:45

That sounds like a personal vendetta.

Speaker 2: 30:48

Look, I don't it was bad. That was one of the first mises that I went to and I was like, oh hell no.

Speaker 1: 30:56

So another question I have, I'm going to what are some criticism or skeptics viewpoints on divination?

Speaker 2: 31:05

you know that you should know, like you shouldn't know these things. Like you know, let the chips fall where they may, not. Not in this tradition, uh-uh. There's no way I'm gonna walk blind, blind, blind out in the world like that. If I got my ancestors guiding me, if I have access to those tools, oh hell. No, I'm not going to be a sucker, I'm not going to be a doormat, I'm not going to be what you call a lab rat in this big matrix experiment to find out where the chips are going to fall. If I can get the spiritual guidance from skilled people, why not? Why not? And I'm doing that for me, I'm doing that for my kid, I'm doing that for all the people that I love, if they're open to it. If they're not open to it, like my grandmother says in Spanish, ¿alla el, ¿alla ella. You know what I'm saying. They're going to do what they're going to do.

Speaker 1: 32:04

Yeah, even if they're not open to it, I still look out Exactly.

Speaker 3: 32:08

Yeah, you know. I just wanted to know how much does this play a role in people's psychology? You know you made mention of If you're doing, if you do the wrong things and you may end up in like a crazy building a Kings County hospital the psychiatric ward. Right.

Speaker 1: 32:32

So how does that our building?

Speaker 3: 32:33

How does that actually happen to people? Because you know this is mentioned and even in more science, like like my grand, my grand sheik from 54 used to say you know, you don't want to. You know, go to too far in depth with certain things without help, I think he's. I think he said without help, but he was talking about how people can take things so far they end up in a tree with their shoes off.

Speaker 1: 32:59

That's what he will. That makes sense. I had they're going to kill me for this a family member that went nuts for us that went off to the loony bin. Due to dealing with spirituality, sometimes you ascend too fast, either too fast, or you go too far and you're not properly grounded, as your grand chief mentioned, with proper help, or sometimes your ego will just drive you to that point because some people are not ready to receive all that information, like they'll open up their third eye and there's too much information from that, they go crazy. I don't know if you heard about the hurt of that.

Speaker 2: 33:37

I have, or no, definitely, like you don't know, like there's so many stories you know and you know there's a fine, you know being super spiritual and being crazy. You know what I'm saying. And a lot of times, like the people that you see walking out here talking to themselves, a lot of times they're very spiritual but they either did not have the guidance, they were using other substances that corrupted their connection with the spirit, that corrupted their connection with the spirit. And so you know, also too, and I always say this, if you are using substances like alcohol, popping pills, snorting, cocaine, whatever your drug of choice is, even alcohol, even, you know, sometimes caffeine, all of these substances they lower your vibration, okay, and they allow you, they open you up to be susceptible to being corrupted by dark spirits, okay. And so you know, if people are using these substances and they're super spiritual on top of that, they'll feel like they're losing their mind.

Speaker 2: 34:45

I'm not going to lie. This is not for the faint of heart. You got to be a spiritual gangster. That's what I'm saying. You can't be playing with it like it's a game, because when those spirits come, are you ready, can you handle them? It's one thing to pass the spirit, and that's great and you can brag about it and think you got. You know, cause I know people. They think that passing the spirit gives them. You know stripes and the, you know the metals and like oh, you know, I'm big in this.

Speaker 2: 35:16

Nah, anybody can anyone could do that, but it's. Can you control them? Can you reign them in? Because you are still on this earthly plane and those spirits are still in the spiritual realm. And so, yes, you allow them to occupy your body, but you got to be able to like, tame them Like, can you reign it in? Can you be like? No, not today. I'm out in the street, I'm feeling a little. You know, I'm feeling spirit. You can't just let the spirit come whenever they want. You cannot. It's not appropriate.

Speaker 1: 35:50

Certain sound frequency which we trigger them, certain frequency, sounds and words which could trigger that, but also with divination, spirituality. It's all around us. The music you listen to. I might sound like a pastor, but certain you know sounds, the vibration, the music ate away drums. I might sound like a pastor, but certain sounds, the vibration, the music, 808 drums and the, because the average song from Bob Marley is at 432 megahertz in frequency. Okay, certain sounds. If vibrate and low will hit you, like certain bass lines will hit you. As I mentioned, your chakras will vibrate. Yes, certain songs you play put you in a happy mood. Certain songs you play put you in a happy mood. Certain songs you play put you in an aggressive tone.

Speaker 1: 36:30

Think about the drums. You hear that Sean Price, he's like yo, I'm ready.

Speaker 3: 36:41

I don't listen to anything anymore. I listen to the mixes that I have to make for my classes. That's pretty much it. I don't listen to anything anymore. I listen to the mixes that I have to make for my classes. That's pretty much it.

Speaker 1: 36:49

I don't listen to anything. Certain songs will do that to you, like DMX used to get me amped up. Like you know, I want to go outside with Timbs in shorts on, with no shirt on, and just walk around and bark all day. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but it's true, because these things are all around us. It's all about grounding yourself. Like meditation helps with that, calming the mind working out.

Speaker 2: 37:13

You gotta have the gift of discernment. You gotta be able to discern what's good and what's not good, because the spirit can jump in and be horrific, horrendous. It could be an ancestor of yours that was a total drug addict. It can make you have the taste to want to drink and can make you have the taste to want to shoot up. You know what I'm saying. And so that spirit, even though that's an ancestral spirit, you don't need to be tapping into that.

Speaker 1: 37:45

We're good, you can stay dead right there. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 37:50

Give that spirit some light and some prayers and be like, yeah, you're good, you stay over there, I love you. But no, not today. No, we're not doing this.

Speaker 1: 38:01

But something, and I'm a daughter of a.

Speaker 2: 38:02

Yeah, so my Orisha that I have crowned, you know, governs the whole realm of the dead, that the ancestral realm, okay, and so this it's coming from a perspective from a daughter of. Oh yeah, other people may have a different perspective on it, but, I'm sorry, that's my perspective got you.

Speaker 1: 38:24

She said what she said. But, as ron was saying earlier, you mentioned the psychological thing, because there's a lot of people that have mental illness that get involved in these cultures, these practices right, and they learn how to disguise that mental illness and say it's spirit, like I heard people say they hear spirits speaking through kitchen sinks, water pipes and such.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Oh, that's interesting. That's a new one.

Speaker 1: 38:49

That's mental health, right there. That's called schizophrenia.

Speaker 2: 38:52

Yeah. And two, when we divine, as a diviner, there are certain numbers. Oh, dude, the way the shells fall, the way the caracoles fall, that lets me know that this person may be a little touched, ok. And so we're not opposed to going to say look, divination is good, but you also need to go get counseling, you also need some therapy. You know, and that is a part of the treatment, the remedy, what they say to help the person.

Speaker 3: 39:29

Okay, I have a question Um how accurate is divination believed? How accurate is divination believed to be in? What factors affect its accuracy?

Speaker 2: 39:42

Yeah, I mean, you got to look at the diviner first. How skilled is the diviner? You know, um, there's something called a food, a food a che, a food, a che, I think I'm pronouncing it correctly, and this was coming from um, a priest of uh ochosi, many years of ocha and a funda che, and so it's basically, you know, does the priest have the knowledge and the ability and the evolved spiritual eye to be able to elaborate on the information that comes up in the divination session? It's not. Yeah, you got to have book knowledge.

Speaker 2: 40:18

You got to know the Patekis, you got to know the Odoo, you got to know the combinations, you got to know what the meanings of the cards are, are the shells? Or how the OB, the coconut falls. You got to know the patterns. So the diviner has to be knowledgeable. And in their right mind. I'm not going to go to someone who's in a deep depression, who's an alcoholic, who's clearly a little tipsy to get a reading. I'm sorry, I don't give a damn, but they got 40 years of ultra. I'm sorry, you know what?

Speaker 3: 40:50

I'm saying that happens Like being around different people in the, I would say, the Santero world, if you will. Yes, it's a lot of drinking involved.

Speaker 1: 41:07

Yeah, yeah, because some of them consume a lot of alcohol, yeah, and I just be like that's such a drunk person that's telling the truth, like. But they do like I seen that, but there's times that's not part.

Speaker 2: 41:16

No, I gotta tell you right now, that's not a part, not my line. The. When you get month out, when you get mounted, possessed by the Orisha, during a drumming, each Orisha has their own set of things that they require when they are down here on this earth at the drumming. It could be a little rum, it could be a white wine, it could be red wine, it could be, you know, port for Shango. You know it could be palm oil. It could be red wine, it could be, you know, port for Shango. You know it could be palm oil, it could be honey, it could be molasses, whatever the things are, that's for the spirit when you come out of the possession. That's it. That's it.

Speaker 2: 42:00

We don't promote drinking. You know what I'm saying, orisha and your ancestors, highly evolved ancestors, anyway, we don't promote drinking. You know what I'm saying, Orisha and your ancestors, highly evolved ancestors, anyway, we don't promote that. Now, when you're in ceremony, that's a different story. And if you're authentically and you're genuinely mounted with the spirit, okay, but if you're faking it and you just keep taking, you know drinking the whole bottle of liquor. If you're faking it and you just keep taking, you know drinking the whole bottle of liquor and you're faking it and everybody knows you're not really passing the spirit you're just using that as a way.

Speaker 2: 42:32

That's a problem it's gonna show.

Speaker 1: 42:34

I've seen that happen in like in um in a voodoo ceremony. Somebody was saying that they were mounted with um. Get it. Uh-huh, you know. They had the, the rum bottle with the pepper in it yep the guinea pepper he wanted to see if the person was being real, he purposely took a sip and right in the person's face, sprayed it. That person went rolling and screaming until my eye burned. They said you see that person oh my god you were really mounted with that spirit, it wouldn't affect you, yeah it wouldn't it wouldn't affect you.

Speaker 1: 43:04

You'll be able to pour it out. I've seen people pour it in their eyes, their ears, whatever private parts, and it doesn't affect them.

Speaker 3: 43:10

Yeah, and I saw a brother man I was in there, man, the dude, in the beginning he was like a regular person and then his whole face just changed yeah, regular person. And then his whole face just changed like yeah, the energy. And then he started moving around and then he took a chicken's head like, and just ripped it straight off, like this blood was running all down, like his face and I was just nah, the spirits are savage, like you know.

Speaker 2: 43:43

You see me, you see me right now, but when you see me in ceremony, oh no, oh, no, no, no, no. It's two different things. And so, yes, some of those spirits that come, they could be savage. They're rah-rah, they're like, they are like gangsta, savage, rough spirits. You know what I'm saying. Then there's some spirits that come very, you know, light and airy and frilly and festive and all that like it, the transformation. It is crazy, it's crazy so how?

Speaker 3: 44:19

how ancient is the practice of divination, or what are its origins?

Speaker 2: 44:25

I mean, for me, I I believe it goes back thousands of years. You know, if I, like you, know those west african traditions ancient, you know. And then the rest of you know, civilization went to these different regions and studied the religious practice, the spiritual practices, and took it back to their countries or whatever, and in some cases bastardized it. You know what I'm saying. I don't want to say that every iteration of the original traditions were bastardized, but some were. You know what I'm saying. They claimed it as their own, then they put a twist on it, an evil twist, and then the devil and did this. You know, there's no devil. We don't believe in the devil. That's some christian christianity. You know christian concepts. There's no devil. We don't believe in that. We believe in there's, there's the light and there's the dark and there's darker energies that can manifest in a dark, sinister, you know, evil way.

Speaker 3: 45:27

But there is no devil no, true, that's true, that's true, I hear you. Okay, now, now, now, for me, I don't. I don't want to say I'm a skeptic, I'm just a person who says you know, show and right, and there are things that I've seen in the what's referred to as the more religious or spiritual world that, um, I that I can't explain, but I can tell you the stories, but I can't explain exactly what happened. This is what which me, even though I'm a person who I don't like, I'm more scientific I'm still open to to get getting a better understanding as to how these religions function and experience, experiencing the religion itself, like, and you know the wonders of this, these, these religions. So I'm very and'm very you know.

Speaker 3: 46:27

I'm curious about it and I would like to know you know these phenomenons that happen? Can you give me examples of phenomenons that you've witnessed and you know being a part of this religion?

Speaker 2: 46:48

What's the phenomenon and what and what asked? There's so much phenomena that takes place, like you know. There's glass cracking. You know dishes flying. You know candles jumping, you know. You know, you see in possession at different drummings. There's so much phenomena that you know, if you can't handle it, you don't go. You know, you see people eating fire. You know what I'm saying. Stepping on hot coal, stepping on glass you know, like eating glass, you know yeah, so the guy a whole cigar I have to say that I forgot to tell you that.

Speaker 2: 47:30

What'd you say, too, that the guy that ate the chicken, he ate glass too I'm sure he did, yeah, and he may not have known, like it depends, like in that possession, possessed state sometimes you can see in here, depending on the, the magnitude and the level of which that spirit comes in that moment, and then sometimes you're completely gone, where the spirit will, just, they'll take you and you're like a rag doll, you flying all over the place, and then you come back and you're like, oh my god, what just happened? Where am?

Speaker 1: 48:02

I? I think people swallow razors and nails yeah, I heard of that yeah, bro, and um yeah there's a lot of things I've seen I I didn't believe. But you know, growing up I was like oh wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 1: 48:15

And some people, you know people get healed I was gonna say that, to mention that a lot of people I seen, a lot of people get healed, a lot of people I've seen get healed of certain ailments that they had, and the spirit somehow will pass them or pass somebody else and the person that is possessed I hate to use that word because it gives such a negative connotation but the person that has the spirit manifested upon them will touch that person and start doing the work on them.

Speaker 3: 48:40

I want to say this too another upon them will touch that person and start doing the work on them. I want to say this too Another reason why I'm interested in this is because I've my my mother's side of the family. They're from the Caribbean and I've always heard you know about like voodoo, magic and stuff like that on my, my mother's side. And just a quick story At one point family they were, you know, playing with a ouija board and um and uh, out of nowhere, something happened to my uncle where he started, like you know, going, like losing himself, and then they try to revive him and bring them back and whatever. And they brought them back and they did, and then you know it's something that they really don't like to talk about. However, fast forward, every firstborn of my mother, like every firstborn on my mother's side, their children firstborns- passed past what?

Speaker 3: 49:47

three. They died. What yeah? Wow, that's crazy so three and they and like in in in a weird order, like it went my aunt, who is the oldest, older than my mother, and then my mother, her daughter died, and then after that my mother's younger sister, her daughter, died, so all the firstborns.

Speaker 2: 50:17

Well, that sounds like a curse to me, you know, yeah, that sounds like some kind of curse. The in the, in the bloodline, you know what I'm saying. And then you know, I've, I've, you know, heard about that where women, you know, or men have been jaded, that you know someone was, you know, married to someone else and they wouldn't leave their wife or their husband and they cast, you know, hexes and curses, and so all the males in the bloodline get in car accidents. All the females, you know they have problems, trouble with getting pregnant, you know, or they will never give birth, you know, they'll be barren. You know, I've seen that, I've witnessed that.

Speaker 2: 50:57

Um, and you know it, and you know it wasn't until they had spiritual work done, divination they did, they did Ebo with the Santero or the Babalao to break those curses and spells through Ebo, through initiation, that they've been released from that so that that tradition of, like you said, happened, all the firstborn they pass. That won't happen. You just break it there. That's another reason why people got to get initiated, in some cases to the highest level, to break those curses, or else it'll keep happening. No one wants to know that they're, they're, you know, they kid or whoever's gonna be passing, and you know that's a tradition. That's something that happens in your family, whether you like it or not. Why would you sit there and take it and chance it, knowing that there's a pattern?

Speaker 1: 51:51

which, as you said, sometimes you pain like and I say we all painful, as they say, the sins of the father, or some people will say mystics will say your past life. Like you know, it's karma, where something may have gone wrong between you and a person and they negative thoughts that they are trying to make these things manifest. But you know, like I said to god be the glory, the universe know what's best and when the person has a strong mind, they can will them themselves out of certain situations. You understand.

Speaker 2: 52:26

Yeah, no, it's true, and that's why I say people who throw negative things and do brujeria, dark magic, ogul, witchcraft and they abuse their spiritual gifts and to manipulate spiritual energies in a negative way. You know that's, that's their prerogative, but they got to be very careful because that will fall on their children and their children's children, because they don't know who they're messing with and their children's children, because they don't know who they're messing with and that karma. They go and throw something at someone they don't know that person has a huge spiritual entourage. Of all these, you know spiritual gangsters and thugs and you know savage, you know energies that can come back on them and harm their children. If not them, it can harm the children and no one wishes the children to get hurt. But people have to practice spirituality in a responsible way and you can't just be throwing shit at people and think like you're gonna walk into the sunset and think everything's okay unless you got a good justification for it.

Speaker 2: 53:38

Unless someone is messing with your money, your, your kids, your livelihood, your life, your existence, nah, it's not worth it.

Speaker 1: 53:50

Spend the block son Let me, not mess it around. That's dope. I have another one. I don't know if you're ready to touch on this, but to go deeper, how does divination contribute to personal growth or decision-making process, Like how, like you know, when somebody gets initiated and they begin to grow their spirituality?

Speaker 2: 54:14

Not everyone is, you know, initiated to be a diviner. You know everyone has a different role. You know what I'm saying. But, like, certainly, you know, if you were born into this tradition, you know initiated in the tradition and that is your path and that's your. You know, that's your um, you know that's your destiny. You gotta study. You're constantly a student and you know you always have to develop. You know study under the right people, people of sound mind. You know and character and you know experience and you know you just got to be, you got to practice responsibly. You can't just get initiated your first year and be like helping 20 people when you don't know shit first year and be like helping 20 people when you don't know shit. I don't give a damn. You one year, ultra, so one year as a santero, and you are claiming to know this, this and that. No, no, I'm sorry, no, no, you don't, it's no possible.

Speaker 1: 55:15

We have to bring you back on here, because there's something that I have been noticing and right, it's not only in in um those that in within african spiritual practices among the diaspora and afro-latina, they tend to measure who's stronger, who's not, and I find that very odd, like they tend to um have competitions and that's something I'm always hearing people throwing work at each other. I don don't like this person.

Speaker 2: 55:40

That's being real macho. You know what I'm saying. And that is so that those people, whether it's men or women, that's so full of ego and with his ego, spirituality, that humility, with the God force, the divine does not exist. It's all ego and it's it's bullshit. Frankly, you know what I'm saying. It's not about that. You're not. You don't get initiated and have, you know, tap into all these energies to be throwing shit at people. That means you're power hungry and, like your character is suspect. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 56:19

People get initiated to protect their drug dealing. You know what I'm saying? The hustlers, and they want to protect their shit. They get into it because they never had power before and so now they got it and they're throwing shit at everybody and they're having fun like it's an experiment. I'm saying people got to practice responsibly because it will fall on their children. It will fall on their children, it will fall on their mother, their father, that whatever they put out there is going to come back and it will kill. It can kill someone's parents, it can kill their children. If they are throwing shit at people, you may not get hit because you may have some level of protection, but your children might not be initiated. Your mother and father, your grandparents may not be initiated. So when that or sopo, when that karma comes back, we don't know. It's going to drop and so somebody is going to get hit, you know. So people always got to practice responsibly.